Guild Wars 2

Jackie.1829:

FractalChaos.6539:

WvW = large scale, OBJECTIVE-BASED WARFARE. Taking and defending/holding keeps and camps is the whole point; siege warfare is an absolute must. If you don’t think so, you’re simply playing the wrong game.

Or it is actually the game which is taking the wrong approach. Which is actually what is happening right here.

No, it’s not. WvW was designed form the ground up to be objective-based, with keeps and towers and supply camps that have chokepoints, walls, and gates that need to be guarded or broken down. It’s been part of WvW design since the very beginning.

Pretending that you didn’t know that’s how it was, and that all this “siege stuff” is a new and unwelcome intrusion…yeah, you’re playing the wrong game.

Preacher.9018:

Caliban.3176:

Preacher.9018:

So much whining. It was a good change. Now they need to buff other siege weapons too.

Something terrible must have happened to SFR since we left because it is very hard to see how anyone who advertises www.pevepe.net in his signature really believes that this was a good change. I remember when the SFR community was filled to the brim with people who enjoyed good fights and actual balanced action.

This was a horrible patch and every day more people come here to say just that. The meta has really changed for the worse. The game has come to a stop, there is a stalemate. Things still flip indeed but only when there is either a huge zerg attacking, there are no defenders or there is a very long and boring siege. No way anyone could say that those results are something the game needed.

I do not “advertise” it. I created it and FUBAR alliance since the beginning and run the organization until my guild left for Darkfall in december.

WvW is a Strategy game. Siege weapons are integral part of it, were since beginning. At release everyone had to fight through Stonemist top floor with dozens of ACs/Ballistas and only one shallow entrance and still won. Organized competition involved lots of siege weapons/counters and effective defences and attacks from both sides. Sorry, but i cant take seriously anyone whining about how “arrowcarts (and siege weapons in general) kill wvw”. If anything, it just shows sad state of WvW where whole metagame degraded to running with single zerg, not putting siege/not defending anything and just trading objectives.

GOOD siege is where you assult a keep with 5 trebs, defending positions with ballistas and bringing supplies where every single counts, fighting through enemy defences/counter treb/mortars/ballistas blocking the entrance/arrow cart fire, where enemy has to try to get out and attack YOUR defended positions outside to not allow walls to be destroyed etc.

People that think WvW is just about getting in groups and fighting each other similarly as in SPVP, just with larger groups – dont really get a point of WvW. Its a strategy game, a WAR.

pevepe.net was created in a first place, to improve level of tactical/strategical cooperation and advance the server over just being pugs/guilds running around aimlessly killing people.

I love siege weapons. If anything, i`d love more variety and more uses for them, for both defending and attacking side. In fact, i was against changing the above described SM situation, with boss on top and hell lot of weapons – since changing it made taking SM trivial and boring task and holding it irrelevant.

Please dont think that you with your whining, represent majority of “expirienced wvw players”

Sincere applause from me. Very well said.

WvW = large scale, OBJECTIVE-BASED WARFARE. Taking and defending/holding keeps and camps is the whole point; siege warfare is an absolute must. If you don’t think so, you’re simply playing the wrong game.

Forzani.2584:

Lauranda.1342:

Are we using ACs wrong? During our down time, one of the other servers runs 40-50 man zergs to take our bl. We often have 3-4 ACs set up at the a gate. And they are nothing more than a nuisance to the enemy (they still plow through and take our fortification). Are we using them wrong or are they really not all that powerful as everyone is making them out to be?

According to the forums apparently you are. 1 AC > 40 man zerg….and you had 3-4 ACs up ? Obviously a L2 kitten ue.

The best part is that when you supply proof that ACs aren’t the magnetometric guided charges that everyone tells you they are, you’re told “That’s because the noobs shooting at you weren’t using them properly and didn’t place them properly”.

These same people also claim that the AC buff has “dumbed down” WvW so much that people only need to man an AC and press 1-2-3 to win. Well if it’s so easy, how can “noobs” not be “using them properly”? And how does arrow cart placement affect its use? It can either hit me, or it can’t. If it’s hitting me, it’s doing so for full damage. Where the AC is located is totally unimportant.

DKNS.2135:

Luckily, we came back strong

See this is what irks me most about WvW.

Blackgate didn’t “come back strong”, Blackgate got a bunch of guild transfers. Had you not gotten significant and large transfers, you wouldn’t have come back in any way, weak or strong.

Jade Quarry wasn’t the top dog for so long because of player skill; they were top dog because they had more players evenly distributed across all time zones. As soon as they lost a few players and their coverage weakened…poof.

Sanctum of Rall didn’t get into Tier 1 because of its skilled players, it got into Tier 1 because a bunch of guilds transferred over when we were in Tier 3, after hearing about a particularly close match we had with (I believe at the time) Dragonbrand and …sorry, totally forget 3rd server. My apologies.

When is anyone going to fess up? The only way to win in T1 is to have more players than your opponents. Even upleveled, undergeared, and unskilled players can take an entire map if they outnumber the enemy 3 to 1.

Methinks what you’re seeing is the Meister Eckhart effect; people who expected the AC change to be game breaking are finding it game breaking. People who felt “Meh” about it are mostly indifferent or even supportive.

All in how you look at it.

As I stated in another thread, “arrowcartmageddon” did not occur in North-American T1. I’ve seen plenty of “standard” attacks flounder, and that is as it should be. I’ve seen just as many attacks succeed; this seems to indicate that yes, it is more difficult than before to capture objectives…but not impossible. Keeps and garrisons have all been flipped, multiple times.

In truth, I’m not even seeing extensive usage of ACs as expected; there’s more of them used in open field battles, too, but sadly…they have not had the effect their users hoped for. =)

EDIT: I am still waiting for 2 more changes to make sieging more enjoyable as is; ACs must not damage other siege weapons, and try- somehow – to make z-axis targeting work, i.e. AoE classes cannot use their AoE abilities on a target 1000 feet up a cliff. That…that’s some serious nasty stuff right there.

Serophous.9085:

Thrumdi.9216:

thiagoperne.7340:

Thrumdi.9216:

timidobserver.7925:

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally creatped, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

There aren’t a lot of games that came bring what WvW brings to the table for pvp oriented guilds. Even if they continue to break it by doing other stupid stuff like turning arrowcarts into godcarts.

That is about to change. Elder Scrolls Online is launching sometime this year, and is on the radar of most PvP guilds, big and small. By all accounts, WvW is its major endgame.

Before culling was fixed, our guild was talking about ESO a lot. But with no culling, we were back to having good times in GW2. The arrow cart buff is pushing us back into the “no-fun” zone and we are following the ESO news again.

ESO is still an unknown quantity, but it does have the potential to be a serious challenger.

(And there is also Planetside 2 out there, which is a 3 faction MMOFPS. Its audience does overlap with some GW2 PvP guilds).

Are you seriously considering to even compare ESO to GW2? Oh man!

I think GW2 will be far better than ESO in most aspects (except perhaps the storyline).

However, the WvW is such a major focus of ESO that it could turn out to have more to offer in terms of gameplay. They will, for example, have unique WvW character advancement at launch, and the map is by all accounts huge and well-designed. And in the end gameplay is the major decider for PvP guilds and players.

GW2 has probably 6 months to polish WvW and get it right. The improvements Anet have made since launch in balance and removing culling have been really great, in my opinion. I just hope they devote the resources it needs going forward.

gee, i hope ESO doesnt have anything like…seige or something….

oh wait…

LMAO that reminds me of Rush Limbaugh (gee why the hell is he stuck in my head so much this fine sunny Sunday morning?) saying that if “Obamacare” passed, he would move to Costa Rica…which has universal, socialized health care.

This is the same; “GW2 is the fail, I r moving to ESO cuz they dun have stooped castles and siege and…”.

Priceless I sez.

Soooooooooo….Arrowcartmageddon hasn’t happened, at least on the Sanctum of Rall, Blackgate, or Jade Quarry servers (though I can imagine some tiers in which server populations are unfairly skewed having problems). I remember like it was just yesterday; people saying that after reset, Hill and Garrison would become unassailable strongholds of DOOOOM because there would be dozens of Death Stars- I mean arrow carts -clogging every possible chokepoint like plaque in Rush Limbaugh’s arteries.

Lo and behold, those very structures, and all the others of course, have been captured and lost numerous times since reset…on all three borderlands. The fights to take them were bloody, ferocious, kittening glorious.

It’s been everything except impossible or boring.

Now once ArenaNet finally realize that ACs shouldn’t damage other siege equipment at all, we’ll be in business.

Mif.3471:

Mortemp.6319:

hmm guess I have no toughness and full zerker for 1900 a tick yo
btw it was cut off for some reason (maybe because I prefer to play in windowed mode but obviously its at least 1,400.)

So you have 10,219 health and 1,400 toughness, and it’s arrow carts that are to blame for your lack of survivability?

Why does it not surprise me to see a VoTF tag in guildy gold in your screenshot.

Priceless. =)

Psykoyul.9147:

FractalChaos.6539:

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Of course skilled players are lacking.
You just have to see this thread.
All the players liking the buff don’t even had the skill to correctly use the prebuff AC.
You can’t find a better exemple of skill lacking.

Build an AC open field. You. All by yourself.

I and one of my friends- just 2 people -will be…oh, let’s say range 4000 away from you.

Say go when ready.

Result? You’ll be here complaining that arrow carts are useless because you got killed by 2 “bads” even though you were manning a sup cart and have your 50 points in AC Mastery.

“That’s impossible. WHat happened?”

“Dood!! They split up and I could only shoot at one of them at a time, and THAT guy kept like…rolling around and moving and stuff. ACs suck.”

Overpowered indeed. snort

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I’m pretty confident ArenaNet will leave in the damage buff (maybe tone it down to 50%) against players, but make ACs useless against other siege weapons.

They admitted something was wrong with a flat 80% buff, and they’re doing something to fix it. Kinda makes it seem like our complaining was not without merit wouldn’t you say?

Hmmm….

Nope. Re-read the whole thing; I see not a single word stating that there is something wrong with a flat 80% buff in damage. Could you highlight the relevant portion for me please? Specifically the part where he states they buffed arrow cart damage too much and are rolling it back?

Honestly? To me, Devon’s post reads pretty much like “We’re going to make it so Arrow Carts don’t hammer other siege weaponry so hard (and I personally would be fine with ACs not harming other siege weapons at all) but as for their ability to hurt you far more seriously than before…that’s what was originally intended. You have to learn to work around that.”

_Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there._

Aberrant.6749:

MiLkZz.4789:

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

As far as I can see, it are the most skilled and hardcore players that are complaining the most about these changes.

Tell me what is skilled about pressing 1/2/3 on an arrowcard.

Indeed… why put together complex multi-person defenses when you can just build an ac, push 1,2,3 and have it destroy all siege/players with the power of an orbital cannon regardless of your weapon/build/gear choices.

sigh Hopeless.

A mass of squirming bodies, thousands and thousands of blind dredge all packed together tight in a cave, unable to move in any direction, stuck where they are, nattering at each other.

“Arrow carts are overpowered! Have you heard?”
“Overpowered? Really?”
“Yes, now you can use a single arrow cart to kill 5 people, easily!”
“Really?”
“YES!!! I’ve been hearing about it all day!!”
“Hearing about what?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered now!!!”
“They are???”
“Yes, one arrow cart can kill ten people, easily!!”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!! Stay away from arrow carts!!!”
“What?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered, you can kill 30 people with just 2 arrow carts in a tower.”
“Well that’s ridiculous, 10 of us just captured a tower- some repo job for Lord Dredgula- and it wasn’t anything like-”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!!! EVERYONE SAYS SO!!!!”
“WHAT WILL WE DO????”
timid voice in the background “Has anyone noticed that the enemy is still taking our stuff even if we defend it with arrow carts?”
“Everyone ignore that Dredge, he’s a troll.”
“Why am I a troll?”
“ARROW CARTS SHOOT TROLLS AT YOU NOW!!!”

Yeah. That’s this debate now.

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I agree there’s a problem; 3 or 4 times already in this thread I’ve stated that my vote goes to making siege weapons invulnerable to AC fire (no more killing rams, catas, or even Golems with ACs) and rolling back the damage from its current 80% to 50%.

So most of the complaining in this tread is centered around the AC dmg dealt to siege,

WHAT??? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

No it’s not. Most of the whining in this thread is about how ACs have ruined open field PvP and about how it’s now impossible to attack an objective without being slaughtered by overpowered arrow carts. I’ve seen some people kittening about how their rams and golems are being melted, but clearly not the majority.

The topic has shifted, but the two things that need to be addressed are 1) general (open field, etc) combat, and 2) the fact that putting up rams against a tower, or getting in a golem, are both nearly pointless now.

I really don’t even mind that ACs might kill players easier if they’re inside a tower shooting OUTward. But in the middle of a field? ACs have no place playing a big role in a field-fight. And having a ram wiped in seconds by ACs? That’s just stupid. At least if the ram was tough the players could rotate out….but as it stands there’s no point. You use a treb….and an arrow cart. Those are pretty much the only things that matter anymore.

I’m pretty confident ArenaNet will leave in the damage buff (maybe tone it down to 50%) against players, but make ACs useless against other siege weapons.

Hickeroar.9734:

Terrain, for instance, makes up about half of the Art of War. If it was as simple as FLANK FLANK FLANK, it would be one thing…but you’re suggesting a blanket tactic that is downright idiotic in the majority of cases.

…just not in this case. Flanking arrow carts in the field has been proven to be an effective (though not perfect) counter. It just works. Trying to argue with me that it won’t work when it already HAS worked is…well, you know.

Also, the idea Sun Tzu et al supports is that you never fight unless you absolutely have to, and then only when you know you’re going to win “without a doubt.” That’s a great thing in real life. It’s also a really really boring way to play a game.

That’s not entirely accurate, and besides it has nothing to do with “Flanking arrow carts will/won’t work”. But you know, penguins.

There are LOTS of things in the Art of War that can be applied to WvW when it comes to actually being in combat. If you want to follow all of it to a T, you’re going to end up with three zergs on the map, holed up in keeps and towers, making faces at each other.

TOTALLY agree there. That’s why you need a bit of Clausewitz as well, throw in some of Alexander the Great’s better ideas (I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion) and maybe the Great Khan’s wisdom (If you’re afraid, don’t do it. If you’re doing it, don’t be afraid!) and hell, why not my favorite Patton quote e-v-a-r because it is SO RELEVANT to this ridiculous noise surrounding Arrow Carts… (If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking).

Sun Tzu just happens to be very à propos when it comes to defensive philosophy.

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I agree there’s a problem; 3 or 4 times already in this thread I’ve stated that my vote goes to making siege weapons invulnerable to AC fire (no more killing rams, catas, or even Golems with ACs) and rolling back the damage from its current 80% to 50%.

So most of the complaining in this tread is centered around the AC dmg dealt to siege,

WHAT??? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

No it’s not. Most of the whining in this thread is about how ACs have ruined open field PvP and about how it’s now impossible to attack an objective without being slaughtered by overpowered arrow carts. I’ve seen some people kittening about how their rams and golems are being melted, but clearly not the majority.

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

Heijincks.9267:

Actually, they aren’t as big as a problem as you say they are. I’ve seen open field arrow carts built all the time post-patch too, both on my own side and the enemy side. We’ve managed to destroy theirs, and they managed to destroy ours suffering minimal losses. All you need is to be able to do is to flank. An arrow cart can’t cover all spaces at once.

Prepare for answers like “We never used to have to flank before; why do we have to start now?” and of course, the hilarious “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. When two zergs meet whoever drops the first AC wins”, spouted in this very thread 2-3 pages back.

Hilarious I tell you.

Deciding to flank while already engaged in head-to-head combat is a risky prospect under the BEST of circumstances. You are a classic armchair quarterback…

What happens if you ARE flanking at the time? What happens if a flank is impossible because of the terrain? There are a nearly unlimited list of reasons why what you’re suggesting is impractical or impossible in the vast majority of cases.

There’s no “armchair” about it; I’ve done it in the game. Others have stated in this thread that they have done it in the game too; ergo, it is proven to work. It’s not foolproof (nothing is) but it works. Adapt.

What would I do if the terrain didn’t let me flank? I’d fall back, bait the enemy into a place where I COULD flank them, kill them, and then move on while they all ran back from their spawn. That works too; I know, I’ve fallen for it before. There’s no part of the map so restrictive that you can’t go through or around another force for very long…

It looks to me like you freeze when presented with a simple deviation from the norm. “Oh kitten, they dropped arrow carts and we can’t flank them. Push in!!”

No wonder ACs give you such fits.

Johje Holan.4607:

FractalChaos.6539:

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.
So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

No one was complaining about arrow carts specifically, very true. A metric crapload of people were complaining about how badly disadvantaged defenders were in a siege, however. So while no one may have asked for a specific buff to ACs, a lot of people sure wanted keep and tower defense to be about more than who fielded more people.

There may not have been a seperate thread but there were many posts about how weak arrow carts were and increasing their damage.

Yes but unfortunately those posts were usually buried deeeeeep in a mess of “Siege is fine learn to play” posts. =( I found that most people were speaking about ACs because they were the most logical way of addressing zergs. “ACs are supposed to kill people; ACs are not killing people. Make ACs able to do what they are meant to do” was the common argument if I recall.

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I’m actually trying to help you.

I oppose anyone whose position is based on hearsay and lack of evidence. I don’t care if I’m personally right or wrong. Really. If tomorrow Anet comes out and says “Arrow Carts are accounting for far too many victories in WvW; our recent change to arrow carts will be rolled back pending more data”, I’m not going to hide. I’ll be here, and my response will be “Hmm. Really? Oh well.”

Please see:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

So in response to:

FractalChaos.6539:

If you think I’m wrong, if you think arrow carts are overpowered and ruining WvW, if you think ArenaNet has to roll back this change, if you’re really serious about that; prove it.

No need to prove it to you, apparently ANet already agrees with us.
Now would be an appropriate time for you to admit that you were wrong and move along.

How odd. When I read Devon’s statement, he seems to say "We’ll be tweaking arrow cart range, as well as their effectiveness against other siege weapons. We’ll also be looking at other siege weapons to see if they need to be better at destroying arrow carts (by extending their range, reducing the AC’s, etc).

I don’t see anything about the arrow cart buff being rolled back. They’re thinking of reducing AC range and AC effectiveness against other siege weapons. I do notice he mentions something else which I find very significant;

“Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts.”

Is he not telling you there- in a very polite, very politically correct, very adult fashion – to adapt to this change? TO ‘learn new tricks"? Sure looks like it to me. Sure looks like they think the arrow cart damage isn’t the deal breaker you think it is, either.

TL;DR: Arenanet is looking at reducing arrow cart range and making them less effective against other siege weapons, but players themselves have to learn (and I quote again) “…new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts.”.

Silver.9084:

Svarty.8019:

Aneu.1748:

WvW is meant to be about players fighting players

That is opinion, not fact.

Actually it is fact, not opinion.

A-net definition of WvW : World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players.

…using siege weapons to fight over keeps and towersblablabla we’ve been over this before. GW2 wiki, etc etc etc. Worn out non sequitur.

Johje Holan.4607:

FractalChaos.6539:

Terkov.4138:

I really hope all the ppl saying they will quit GW2, will really quit

One can only hope…

Couldn’t agree more.

I have lost some respect for some guilds and individuals through this “discussion”. Its really the nasty nature of some of them too.

I mean, Devon responds, and they still reply with rude or nasty comments.

In all fairness, I’m sure Devon can cope; being a community manager by definition involves dealing with a large group of people who have zero accountability for anything they say. The Internet is rude. Unfortunate, but undeniable.

Heijincks.9267:

Actually, they aren’t as big as a problem as you say they are. I’ve seen open field arrow carts built all the time post-patch too, both on my own side and the enemy side. We’ve managed to destroy theirs, and they managed to destroy ours suffering minimal losses. All you need is to be able to do is to flank. An arrow cart can’t cover all spaces at once.

Prepare for answers like “We never used to have to flank before; why do we have to start now?” and of course, the hilarious “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. When two zergs meet whoever drops the first AC wins”, spouted in this very thread 2-3 pages back.

Hilarious I tell you.

Chaba.5410:

Tearofsoul.9843:

DevonCarver.5370:

We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

My dear dev,

Are you trolling on us or what?

Thanks

Geek time: historic Hwacha and Ballistas had roughly the same range. Not that the Hwacha arrow rockets could fire through walls or anything like that though.

Do not tempt me with the notion of Hwatchas!!!! I’ve been geeking out on those ever since I saw them build one on Mythbusters. =P

Reslinal.2359:

I play on NA t1 and have been on both the side that tries to use AC in open field battle (with WM) and the side that tries to destroy opposing zerg (with KnT against TW) that uses AC in open field battle. While it adds some elements in open field battle, it is certainly not as game breaking as some people here tries to make it sound. We lost the field battle where we tried to use AC and won the field battle when the opposing side tried to use AC.

That’s probably because using ACs in open field fights is wicked stupid.

Hint; don’t run away from the ACs; get right on top of them. It’s not hard at all.

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.
So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

No one was complaining about arrow carts specifically, very true. A metric crapload of people were complaining about how badly disadvantaged defenders were in a siege, however. So while no one may have asked for a specific buff to ACs, a lot of people sure wanted keep and tower defense to be about more than who fielded more people.

Aneu.1748:

Please note that until you stop the passive aggressive posts and return off cloud 9 and seem to be making an effort to understand the problem (because there obviously is one) then I will not be replying to you – hopefully your response to this is a welcome one.

I agree there’s a problem; 3 or 4 times already in this thread I’ve stated that my vote goes to making siege weapons invulnerable to AC fire (no more killing rams, catas, or even Golems with ACs) and rolling back the damage from its current 80% to 50%.

Arrow carts were useless before. Arrow carts seem overpowered now (because it’s a new change). The truth, as in all things, probably lies in the middle of those two statements. My problem is with the “NO!! Change everything back NOW and LEAVE it that way!!” crowd. If that isn’t your point of view, then kudos to you.

brandon.6735:

And here is why we need a public test server to test stuff out with the community. You guys always seem to put stuff out that is very weird and questionable in every patch and most of the time revert it back.

One billion times yes on the public test server option. I wonder if ArenaNet chose to ignore this possibility because they don’t want people leaking info about their Living World updates, keep the storyline safe, that sorta thing…

Could we not get a test server in which only the WvW maps were active? Please?

VOLKON.1290:

Moderator.1462:

Hi everyone,

This thread has been forwarded to Anet so that they are aware of what does the community think about the Arrow Carts changes.

Thanks for your feedback.

Wait… there were arrow cart changes?

I kid. Personally I’m not too put off with the changes. People shouldn’t be able to stand in an AC AoE field and shrug it off like it’s a warm drizzle. Ask me about the 30 second warning or the 30 minute despawn and I’ll be less kind, but the arrow carts I think reflect more resistance to a change in how we siege than anything else. We need to clear siege now rather than ignore it. Supply is more valuable. It’s a shock to the system.

Thank you for your opinion sir; logical and objective reasoning is always welcomed.

Arkard.3970:

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

Arkard.3970:

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

The annoying thing is that this stuff was balanced. Really well balanced actually… Why mess with an excellent balance like that?

I would give a lot to find out what decision making process was followed when doing this, because it, frankly, doesn’t many any sense.

ACs were too weak, they really were. Rain hurt more than one of them. They should keep the anti-personnel aspects of them intact. Damage reduction against siege, I can see that.

Now… a trainable “Flaming Arrows” that does full damage against siege (and burns people)… this makes me tingly inside.

And you’re OK with the entire idea of open-field combat being destroyed by this single, idiotic change?

When I see people post stuff like this, I wonder how much WvW they actually play. It can’t be much…

Haven’t seen open field combat destroyed to be honest. I’ve seen tower defenses splatter invaders, but not open field stuff. Now, if someone dropping an AC in the open field is indeed “breaking” open field combat then all I can offer to do is slowly shake my head at the dead people that failed to realize there’s a minimum distance for ACs as well.

That assumes one ac…. if you flash build multiple ones with a zerg, they can cover each other easily….

I’ve done it; there were only 8 of us and (I think; pets, clones and kittene make it hard to take a rapid, accurate count) 12ish of them, with 3 ACs. I think 2 of them may have been upleveled, that certainly did not help them. When we killed off one AC operator and destroyed 2 of the 3 ACs, they ran. None of us died, only 1 of them did; AC operator. =P

Yep, multiple ACs can cover each other if they are built far enough apart. If a zerg doesn’t drop them far enough apart, you’ve got multiple tightly packed AC operators being killed by the mother of all AoE storms.

This is so easy to fix; make arrow carts effective only against players. Make them useless against rams, ballistas, catas, trebs, and other ACs. Increase the cooldown on the firing rate for all AC skills (it’s an arrow cart; don’t I have to reload???). Hell reduce the damage buff to 50% instead of 80% so that servers in lower tiers with skewed population balances aren’t hit quite as hard, as was suggested by…I think, Ruprecht, in this very thread.

But to cross your arms like children and go “NO!! Make go away, me not WANT to twy, me not happy!” is just…embarrassing.

Tearofsoul.9843:

FractalChaos.6539:

Someone getting wailed on with arrow carts and not dying. Cliffside, Garrison, Hill, Bay, Sunny, 2 arrow carts, six arrow carts., eight arrow carts…..it won’t matter. I won’t die.

Are you sure you can even handle 4 ACs?

Already did.

Niim.9260:

DeWolfe.2174:

Devon, please do not destroy WvW by listening to the very vocal minority. WvW is the only place siege exist. I love using siege and it’s THE ONLY place we can. WvW is NOT the place for small GvG fighting. That is the main problem here. Specific guilds trying to change every aspect of the game to suit themselves. And, these individuals that believe they have skill because they press a number for a skill.

Make the population on sPvP maps larger to suit them. This way they can do their thing without spoiling WvW, please??

I really wish we could stomp this stupid suggestion once and for all. Every discussion about GvG always ends in someone telling folks to take it to sPvP environment. If you spent any time at all in sPvP or farther then 10 feet from a zerg you would know that the two are not the same and sPvP is not conducive to what people are looking for.

WvW is about being inclusive of all play styles, be it solo, small group, 20 man squad, giant 70+ zerg. There is a role for each of those play styles within WvW. If WvW is only about siege and objectives, then why not just make DAoC style battlegrounds with one keep in the middle and we just all fight over it? Why have space to roam? Supply camps to defend? Sentries and dolyaks for solo’s to kill? Why make scouting important? WvW would be greatly diminished without all of these things, yet you want all of WvW to be ONLY focused on sieging an objective? Seems extremely short sighted to me.

If adding a legitimate, polished (read: stable, Arenanet!), playable Guild vs Guild option will redirect all the people who want to WvW without those bothersome siege weapons or buildings to capture…I’m all for it!

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

blink

…

Really?

A) That’s me dancing in the video as arrow carts barely hurt me. I frapsed that fight.
B) I already mentioned the rams were dropped far too early. It was a bad move. Four people died and the other 20 or so stayed back and lived. 4 people died out of a possible 25. Not exactly a slaughter, is it?
C) The commanders did not “turn tail and run”; they needed supply to build catas and decided to go get some. It’s clearly visible in my chat window; “Ok, gonna resupply and try this again” That’s not a rout; that’s smart.

However, given that you didn’t read my earlier post about the video, given that you didn’t even know it was made by me, and given that you think the attack broke in a panic and ran when it’s quite obvious we didn’t…yeah, you’re kinda clueless.

A) No, I knew full well the video was made by you, that’s why I called you a kitten.
B) It should come as no surprise to anyone at all that if you stay outside the arrow cart range, they won’t do much damage to you. The arrow carts were obviously focusing the gate, and the people who approached the gate popped almost instantly. Just because 20 people stood outside the AC focus doesn’t mean they could have made it past the choke alive.
C) Call it smart if it helps you sleep at night, but 3 commanders showing up to a tower, dropping siege, seeing that siege destroyed, then breaking ranks and leaving the tower with an enormous tail is, by definition, a rout. If the video continued to show you returning with more supply and successfully taking the tower, that would be a different issue…but strangely you didn’t include that part.

Also, I didn’t say you broke in a panic, I said you fled, which you can deny if you’d like, but it’s clearly visible in the video.

The only thing your video showed was that your commanders started a siege woefully unprepared and undersupplied, and your players would rather dance around with 8 supply than build the siege their commander placed. To be honest, the arrow carts had very little to do with it.

1- I am getting hit repeatedly by ACs. Don’t pretend you can’t see it. Even when they do focus on me, I’m able to heal through it quite easily. You’re either lying or intellectually dishonest on this point.

2- Since I feel fairly confident that no arrow cart is going to kill me. I am going to spend the day frapsing videos of me standing in massive arrow cart fire and living. I want to see how you’ll explain away 30 or 40 videos showing exactly the same thing; someone getting wailed on with arrow carts and not dying. Cliffside, Garrison, Hill, Bay, Sunny, 2 arrow carts, six arrow carts., eight arrow carts…..it won’t matter. I won’t die.

Svarty.8019:

Nightingale.8364:

Adapt or die. Couldnt agree more, [..]
Easy mode with a vengeance.

Easy mode too hard for you?

Hmm…these Gunnar’s Hold people. I like the cut of their jib. Sound like worthy adversaries.

alkalone.5798:

It’s very time to do something about AC?
All of us are complaining, what ArenaNet is waiting ?
Let’s nerf it !

No, some of you are complaining. You’re just being very loud about it.

Loken.9724:

Just wait until 100 man zergs realize just how many AC’s they can drop on demand in the open..

Split your zerg into 3 groups (WvW is all about “skill” and “coordination” so this should be easy, right?)

1- Send one group left, another right, another down the middle.

2- As soon as you see the first AC go down, rush it. ACs have a minimum range and cannot fire on people standing right next to the operator. They also don’t work so well if the operator’s dead.

3- If, by some miracle, they actually get one or two ACs built, they won’t have a single large zerg to shoot at; they have 3 separate targets (remember, left, right AND center). 3 targets = spreading their damage thinner

I’ve done it. It works and is scary effective…mainly because the zerg dropping the AC is expecting us to do something really dumb like, I dunno, veil and then charge into them in one big blob.

How stupid would that be, right?

Terkov.4138:

I really hope all the ppl saying they will quit GW2, will really quit

One can only hope…

TyrDaishi.1057:

I would highly recommand to ignore “FractalChaos” from now on in this discussion since he/she/it is obviously a troll. He is opposing everyone just for the sake of the argument, and he is not doing such a good job doing so.

I besieged the central keep of an offensive bl yesterday, and the the time inbetween the real fights where boring and stupid. AC Killzone on our Treb build-sites, AC Killzone in the Central keep from the enemy. Nothing happened for a long time (even given the fact that the keep had no upgrades). We lost a view more friendlys then usual when we finally captured the keep, but we where only able to do so because the enemy didn’t placed his siege weapons too smart and countered our trebs too late.

If our frenemies would have reacted faster it would have been impossible to capture the keep. There is usually just not enough manpower and supplies to besiege a fortress from more then 2 entrys. And if you split your troops too much it’s way to easy to defeat the smaller groups if you make fast strikes from the keep. It is and will be completly doggy doggy kitten smitten. French chicken turtles are french chicken turtles. And you just gave them the excuse to stay in their towers forever and ever. Because, y’know, the frenchies love to scratch the mold from Tower/Keepwalls and hug the cold dead stones inside. End of story. (This is NOT applying to all french, I like a whole lot o’ em who are insane fighters).

I’m actually trying to help you.

I oppose anyone whose position is based on hearsay and lack of evidence. I don’t care if I’m personally right or wrong. Really. If tomorrow Anet comes out and says “Arrow Carts are accounting for far too many victories in WvW; our recent change to arrow carts will be rolled back pending more data”, I’m not going to hide. I’ll be here, and my response will be “Hmm. Really? Oh well.”

If you think I’m wrong, if you think arrow carts are overpowered and ruining WvW, if you think ArenaNet has to roll back this change, if you’re really serious about that; prove it.

Don’t focus on me personally, don’t ignore every bit of evidence that contradicts you; prove ArenaNet wrong by proving that ACs have butchered WvW. Do yourselves a favor, too, prove it with hard evidence, things we can all see and judge, and not “I heard Guild X don’t like WvW anymore, Anet suxxorz!!”

Or just keep playing Chicken Little on the forums. Up to you.

Caedmon.6798:

Aytrix.4059:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aytrix.4059:

“World versus World (also known as WvW) is a Player versus Player game mode where players from three different servers, or worlds, battle in the Mists.”

Straight from the GW2 Wiki. Do you even play WvW?

“…In World versus World, players can besiege structures such as Keeps and Towers with siege weapons…”

Also from the GW2 Wiki. Oddly enough it’s part of the very same 3 line paragraph that you quoted. I’m not saying you tried to hide or omit valuable information; it’s perfectly legitimate to believe that you simply stopped reading once you saw something that supported only your side of the debate. Common mistake, we all forgive you.

I am not arguing that there should be no siege in WvW. The point was made by the other guy that WvW is NOT PvP. Did you even bother to read the posts?

EDIT: Its funny that in your sig you mention how peoples ignorance kitten es you off. Your own ignorance must make you absolutely furious.

Honestly,i think it would be wiser to ignore this guy all together for he may be the reason this thread will be locked up.he’s trying to force his opinion down our throats and not accepting what anyone else has to say.

Typical. “He’s making us look bad and we can’t prove him wrong; SHUN HIM!”

Aytrix.4059:

“World versus World (also known as WvW) is a Player versus Player game mode where players from three different servers, or worlds, battle in the Mists.”

Straight from the GW2 Wiki. Do you even play WvW?

“…In World versus World, players can besiege structures such as Keeps and Towers with siege weapons…”

Also from the GW2 Wiki. Oddly enough it’s part of the very same 3 line paragraph that you quoted. I’m not saying you tried to hide or omit valuable information; it’s perfectly legitimate to believe that you simply stopped reading once you saw something that supported only your side of the debate. Common mistake, we all forgive you.

Alekty.8706:

FractalChaos.6539:

You could say them, if you actually had any sort of proof that my conclusions are incorrect. Until you do, however, yes…best to remain silent.

Okay I’ll bite your lure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IArozAFqM9M

This video prooves that aliens exists just as much as your video prooves that ACs are fine.

So.. in light of this, I do believe that aliens on earth is of a more important matter than arrowcarts, what are we going to do about the aliens? So until you can give me a video prooving that aliens doesn’t exists I think you should remain silent.

That’s a really creative analogy…not quite as witty as you think it is, I suspect, but anywho…

I will repeat my question; why was everyone saying arrow carts were fantastically overpowered yesterday when now, based on more recent comments, “3 or 4” is no big deal today? C’mon, watching you all dodge the question isn’t as much fun as it was an hour ago…

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

Once again, with feeling;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H55Vruof0EU

Arrow carts are easy to deal with. Period. Lurn too pley.

LOL, thank you for just accidentally proving the opposite point you meant to.

The video you posted consists of a ram plan getting thrown down and destroyed immediately after it’s built, with some kitten dancing in the AC fire while his teammates die. Two minutes after the siege began, three commanders and their zergs turn tail and flee without even having scratched the gate.

blink

…

Really?

A) That’s me dancing in the video as arrow carts barely hurt me. I frapsed that fight.
B) I already mentioned the rams were dropped far too early. It was a bad move. Four people died and the other 20 or so stayed back and lived. 4 people died out of a possible 25. Not exactly a slaughter, is it?
C) The commanders did not “turn tail and run”; they needed supply to build catas and decided to go get some. It’s clearly visible in my chat window; “Ok, gonna resupply and try this again” That’s not a rout; that’s smart.

However, given that you didn’t read my earlier post about the video, given that you didn’t even know it was made by me, and given that you think the attack broke in a panic and ran when it’s quite obvious we didn’t…yeah, you’re kinda clueless.

Alekty.8706:

FractalChaos.6539:

“You do realise that there are no AC in the vid shown right?” Of course there are; I’m standing in the red circles the whole time. It’s plainly visible.

“2 or 3, maybe 4” Well which is it? No AC, as you stated +in the previous sentence+ (!!!!) or are there 2,3, maybe 4? Which one is it? Getting your facts straight when trying to rebut someone’s argument is pretty vital in any debate.

" poorly placed" Who cares where they are placed?? THEY’RE ALL HITTING ME!!!! How would their placement make them more effective? Arrow carts hit you, or they don’t. If they do, then they’re in the right spot. They wouldn’t do more damage to me because someone had tucked them away 2 feet to the left. Do you think about what you write before you write it?

And how do you use an arrow cart poorly? You form a group, you assist, and you all fire repeatedly for maximum effect. mixing in your bleeds with your snares. It’s not particularly hard to grasp._

“They don’t even shoot the ram plan…” At 0:42 you can clearly see the arrows raining down on the ram, killing the two operators (poor widdle Asura). The ram goes down at 1:08. Please try not to lie when it’s so easy for me to make you look silly.

I’m still waiting to see video proof that arrow carts are making it impossible to capture keeps or towers, or to fight in open field, or to take a supply camp. Screenshots are not acceptable, I don’t put it past you lot to photoshop a 70k AC crit into a screenshot.

Video proof please; I did it. Why can’t you?

I am sorry, but I’m not quite sure you are in a position to tell people who looks silly.

I could say tons of things to your mindless braindead conclusions, but I’ll say only one thing. Yes you can still flip keeps and towers, yes it will take longer and yes that is what will kill world versus world.

You could say them, if you actually had any sort of proof that my conclusions are incorrect. Until you do, however, yes…best to remain silent.

Psykoyul.9147:

You do realise that there are no AC in the vid shown right?
2 or 3, maybe 4, poorly placed and even poorlier used… they don’t even shoot the ram plan…

Seriously guys… you don’t have a clue on how a good defense is set, right that’s not a problem. But don’t argue with people knowing what they’re talking about… specially if it’s to end with this ridiculous type of vids…

“You do realise that there are no AC in the vid shown right?” Of course there are; I’m standing in the red circles the whole time. It’s plainly visible.

“2 or 3, maybe 4” Well which is it? No AC, as you stated +in the previous sentence+ (!!!!) or are there 2,3, maybe 4? Which one is it? Getting your facts straight when trying to rebut someone’s argument is pretty vital in any debate.

" poorly placed" Who cares where they are placed?? THEY’RE ALL HITTING ME!!!! How would their placement make them more effective? Arrow carts hit you, or they don’t. If they do, then they’re in the right spot. They wouldn’t do more damage to me because someone had tucked them away 2 feet to the left. Do you think about what you write before you write it?

And how do you use an arrow cart poorly? You form a group, you assist, and you all fire repeatedly for maximum effect. mixing in your bleeds with your snares. It’s not particularly hard to grasp._

“They don’t even shoot the ram plan…” At 0:42 you can clearly see the arrows raining down on the ram, killing the two operators (poor widdle Asura). The ram goes down at 1:08. Please try not to lie when it’s so easy for me to make you look silly.

I’m still waiting to see video proof that arrow carts are making it impossible to capture keeps or towers, or to fight in open field, or to take a supply camp. Screenshots are not acceptable, I don’t put it past you lot to photoshop a 70k AC crit into a screenshot.

Video proof please; I did it. Why can’t you?

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

FractalChaos.6539:

Once again, with feeling;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H55Vruof0EU

Arrow carts are easy to deal with. Period. Lurn too pley.

Proving once again that in-game experience, facts, and proof trump forum warrior QQ-ing, theorycrafting, and whining.

If arrow carts weren’t a problem for you before, they won’t be a problem for you now. On the other hand, if you’re having trouble with arrow carts and trying to blame your difficulties on the patch, then I guess complaining about it on a forum is easier than learning how to counter this particular siege weapon.

Thanks, FractalChaos, for the video. Keep ’em coming.

Oh I am frapsing tons and putting together a playlist of me deliberately running into the thickest concentration of arrow cart fire and waltzing out again. Different towers, different keeps.. ;-) What’s really funny is that I’ll probably STILL hear a lot of “The guys on the ACs were noobs” even though they’re all T1 players and probably have more points in AC traits than any of these…er…“PvP” players.

I think I may call my film “As I skip daintily ’tween your Nipples” in honor of my being the nipple in an arrow cart circle. =P

graverr.6473:

FractalChaos.6539:

acs are not OP they are fun …..stuff..meant to play..more stuff..booring video…lurn too pley

What did you want to actually prove with that video except that the defenders are bad bad bad? They looked like they had 2 or 3 acs and not even superior.Try harder next time .Even in t3 we get superior 6-8 arrowcart on any gate /chokepoint all the times.My guardian hits 3k ticks with a superior AC .5 sup acs = 15k PER SECOND 8 superior Acs =24 k per second u mad ?I will just ignore you and move on .Carebear on an arrowcart on a booring pvdoor action wants to prove a point ppl lol at your attempt.

I called it; all the “Oh that doesn’t count because” justification is pretty weak.

A very loud and strident minority of players has been freaking out about this AC buff since the patch was announced let alone deployed.

“Arrow carts make taking a tower or keep impossible now!” Proven wrong same day patch was deployed.

“Good luck taking Hills! That’s IMPOSSIBLE now!” Proven wrong same day.

“Getting through a chokepoint guarded by ACs is IMPOSSIBLE now!!”Proven wrong same day.

“Arrow carts in the open field will wreck zergs, open field PVP is IMPOSSIBLE now!!” Proven wrong same day.

How often do people have to come into this thread and prove to you that all those statements are false before you finally figure out you’re wrong?

PS: My WvW ppponents are Jade Quarry and Blackgate, and even though I hate them, I dare say they offer more of a challenge than any of you ever would, so think twice before calling them “bads”…you bads.

You. Are. Wrong.

Psykoyul.9147:

Saint Scarlet.2906:

Lance.5892:

Over the last few days, from many people I’ve talked to, there seems to be a vast majority of EU guilds and tier 1-2 NA guilds and wvw players who do dislike the arrowcart buff.

Thats strange because out of all the guilds i’m in contact with none of them dislike the ac buff, they see it more of a challenge. Oh and those guilds are all the “top” guilds currently playing, except VoTF who seem to have a major hate campaign going for this buff. Maybe it’s you guys that need to learn how to play and not pretend you’re the spokespeople for all guilds, seeing as most think you’re a joke(moreso after seeing all you’ve written here this last week).

Could you name some of these guilds that are top guilds and like the change?
Or is lieing more convenient?

Anyway… all the top guilds from JS dislike this change. And judging by how they don’t attack keeps anymore, at least 2 top guilds from Elona Bief (GD, GL). And counting.

All that means is that the top guilds on JS and the 2 top guilds from Elona are as inept in WvW as yours is.

Once again, with feeling;

Arrow carts are easy to deal with. Period. Lurn too pley.

Jackie.1829:

I dont need to say anything. You are giving me more anecdotal evidence.
Normal arrow cart vs what seems to be a p/v/t specced engineer (lol @ build) and ofc since you dont commit to any form of attack you will not die, what is your point?

I too am capable of running away from damage. Thanks for showing me nothing useful.

Except I didn’t run away, I stood in it for upwards of 60 seconds, and didn’t die. Again; you’re wrong. You’ll feel better when you say it, I assure you.

EDIT: And as far as my build amusing you, I am glad you find it so much fun! It basically lets me stake enemies even when their allies try to stop me, and lets me rez my guys even when enemies try to stop me. I excel at both roles, even moreso than Guardians. The fact you’re not able to see the value in that speaks VOLUMES about why you can’t get around this arrow cart stuff.

covenn.7165:

FractalChaos.6539:

Phunk.6103:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

VOTF Please keep this up. The change to the arrow carts sucks.

My guild is having exactly 9 billion % less fun in wvw.

Also before some idiot replys with ‘stop zerging’ My guild fields 20 when im on usually, we run private comms and tell pugs to leave us the kitten alone. 20 people taking 1 tower? sure give me 19 trebs and 12 hours. I’ll get it down eventually.

QQ

SoR took Stonemist from Blackgate tonight in under 30 minutes in spite of them having tons of ACs.

Please explain this, given the current hysteria surrounding arrow carts.

Probably because BG are 40k ahead of SoR…and SoR pose no threat…

So because we’re not a threat, their arrow carts couldn’t hurt us? Because the rather prodigious number of Blackgate defenders were really spamming the heck outta those arrow carts, and yet…

Regardless any and all points you are making are moot.

It simply isn’t fun.

Fun is subjective; I think it is, and so do a helluva lotta people. “Not fun to you” does not equal broken. Rap your noggin’ round that.

Jackie.1829:

You are impossibly irrational to the point that discussion with game balance with you is possibly one of the most futile things I have ever attempted.

You bring in anecdotal examles of how you took a keep or SM with your server so therefore it must be balanced. Like me saying I can 1v3 thieves in wvw so thieves need a buff. You then continue to show no foresight because you dont consider the effects of people eventually traiting into AC mastery. There is no proof of whether those arrow carts were superior or not, nor how the skill were used.

What is the point in you….

People are whining about the fact that arrow carts have made WvW unplayable at worst, or a slow and ponderous static battle at best. I’m making fun of them because I can prove that this is not the case.

FULL DISCLAIMER A: Apologies for the background broadcast of the hockey game kitten YOU GRYBAAAAA!!!!). Mute the video if you choose, as sound isn’t relevant.

FULL DISCLAIMER B: Though roughly 20-25 of us assaulted the tower, the call came out to head to Bay (we had the gate or wall or something at 60% according to map chat) and so we did not take it. However, you’ll clearly see that;

1- The attack was, overall, a disaster. Rams were dropped in spite of arrow cart spam, and two people (out of 25 or so) died immediately. The rest of us didn’t kiss the door and, you know, lived.

2- At no time was I even remotely in danger of being killed. My hit points never fell below 14k (out of 24k). I could heal through that damage for a bloody long time using elixirs, my healing kit, and personal healing spell.

3- Our commander actually states at one point “Ok, going to resupply and try this again”. Why? Because though the arrow carts weren’t preventing us from taking the keep outright, they WERE preventing us from taking it easily, which is exactly as it should be.

Beyond all of that, the simple and stark fact is that a) arrow carts didn’t result in a mass slaughter of our attacking force, and b) arrow carts DID force us to back off and try something other than “Drop rams, build build build!”.

I’m really looking forward to the stream of hilarious “Oh that doesn’t count because” arguments from the VOTF crew and their assorted sock puppets….should be good for an awesome larf.

Phunk.6103:

FractalChaos.6539:

Phunk.6103:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

VOTF Please keep this up. The change to the arrow carts sucks.

My guild is having exactly 9 billion % less fun in wvw.

Also before some idiot replys with ‘stop zerging’ My guild fields 20 when im on usually, we run private comms and tell pugs to leave us the kitten alone. 20 people taking 1 tower? sure give me 19 trebs and 12 hours. I’ll get it down eventually.

QQ

SoR took Stonemist from Blackgate tonight in under 30 minutes in spite of them having tons of ACs.

Please explain this, given the current hysteria surrounding arrow carts.

Probably because BG are 40k ahead of SoR…and SoR pose no threat…

So because we’re not a threat, their arrow carts couldn’t hurt us? Because the rather prodigious number of Blackgate defenders were really spamming the heck outta those arrow carts, and yet…

and clearly ALL of those people on ALL of those arrow carts had 50 points in them…

Heijincks.9267 – No, you cant “spot and destroy them before their built”…they have 3500 range…they can be built out of reach from even trebs if built at an elevated spot..

Oooooooh, so now it’s “Arrow carts are overpowered IF you’re a glass cannon, IF the operator is fully traited in the AC line and IF you just stand there”.

Where’s the problem?