Guild Wars 2

Ikcen.7518:

Galen Grey.4709:

problem is there an official explanation of what constitutes a sandbox? cause its more like a concept than something tangible.

Lol, seems pointless to talk with you. If you are not right you just start explanations and leaves without figs. GW2 is not a sandbox, it’s clear. The main elements of sandbox are missing. There is no matter /effect on the game world/ if you play it or not, or how long you play it. You have no property, there is no tournaments /this thing with arenas is everything else but not a tournament, cause at the end nobody wins, ppl just play it/, you cannot build, and your actions change nothing in the game. If I don’t help the villagers to stop centaurus, they will not start to hate me, my decision will change nothing. It’s clear, that Anet lie in their advertisement, when promised a sandbox game. And it was a great advertisement. Yesterday some player say GW2 is the best game he ever played. So I asked him how many mmos he ever played, and he told me – one, this one. GW2 is a good ad, but it’s not sandbox mmo. Anet just set the cart before the horse. They had to create a good game and then to advertise it, not vice versa.

[sarcasm] yes… People who are wrong are especially known for backing their statements up with explanations not like people who are right who just state stuff without backing it up in anyway [/sarcasm]

Now for some clarification, I would like you to point out exactly where I claim Gw2 is a sandbox because what I said was “For starter the game was never promised as a sandbox at all. It was promised as theme park that has some sandbox elements” and that means you know that Gw2 isnt a sandbox so we fully agree there. Has sandbox elements doesnt mean its a sandbox it means that it simply shares some common traits with a sandbox. Which it does.

Are you really being serious here? Of course you have an effect on the world:
“If I don’t help the villagers to stop centaurs, they will not start to hate me, my decision will change nothing.” Really? are you sure you’re even playing the same game? If you dont help the villagers they will most definitely not hate you because they’ll be busy at being dead, killed by the centaurs you let ravage the village. Now the streets are filled with centaurs rather then villagers. how exactly can they hate you if they died? And perhaps more importantly Villagers are happy going about their business…. Centaurs attack and you do nothing…. village is in flames, villagers dead, Centaurs roaming about. I might be wrong but villagers happy going about their business is not the same as village in flames, villagers dead and centaurs walking in the streets so please tell me how exactly is that what you call nothing changes?

No you’re the one who is not telling the truth I am afraid because Arenanet NEVER promised a sandbox game, you’re the one stating that but please feel free to link and official declaration where Gw2 was promised to be a sandbox. Cause the only thing I ever heard them saying is that it will be a themepark with some sandbox elements. A themepark with sandbox elements does not imply this will be a sandbox it implies this game will most definitely be a themepark but it will have some elements which are in common with Sandbox games and thats true. I played Eve Online, Rift, Star trek Online, the original Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, Aion, Tera, Raiderz, Age of Wushu, Allods online, Ever Quest 2, Lord of the rings online, The Secret world, Star wars the old republic, World of Warcraft, Lineage 2, Black prophecy, Dungeons and Dragons online, and more… And yes Gw2 is the one that comes closests to my perfect MMO.. its not perfect it does have a few issues and being a fan of sandboxes I would definitely would love more Sandbox Elements put into the game but overall yes it is my favorite MMO.

Zhaneel.9208:

Thanks for the link. I hope they don’t give up on expansions, that would be a rather foolish business plan. Many people are already critical of cashshop heavy games. Anet has done a good job of incorporating items that, for the most part, do not give significant player advantages. Still, it would help them tremendously if the fans, established GW2 community, and potential new buyers could see expansions once in a while providing larger, permanent content that can be purchased to help fund the game in a more significant way.

Living story content is just fine as a derivative way to pass the time, but moving away from expansions entirely is extremely foolish. With entire games on the horizon such as ESO, Archeage, etc. on the horizon, that provide worlds of new content people will lose interest in tiny updates and move on to bigger and better things.

Expansions may be time and resource consuming, but they will add positive for lack of a better word vibes, showing that this company is actively incorporating larger, exciting content to explore.

The recent updates and changes have been amazing and really reinvigorate the community as a whole. People who would have played regardless or have continued to play seem to be for the most part happy with new events and places to explore.

HOWEVER I would argue that most of the community, as loyal as we are would very much like to see larger, more significant updates in the far future.

If the living story can stay relevant to the original storyline such as is related to the personals stories and the larger ever looming threat of the Elder Dragons then it might not be so bad to keep having small updates for a while.

Without expansions however, I worry for the condition of this game’s community in the long run.

Just one thing you’re interpreting not having an expansion as meaning we wouldnt be getting the content you typical find in an expansion. Thats not what they’re said, they said they’d still build the same stuff just not release in a package. Living story vs Expansion is not about what content they’re going to do just on how they’re going release it. Living story will be released as it goes month after month. Expansion means it will be released as a bundle after an x amount of time generally 1 – 1.5 years

but both will include the same type of content, new weapons, new races, new personal story, new zones etc…

Devata.6589:

I already explained why some people name GTA a sandbox while it really isn’t one. So basically you can say those people are wrong or you can say.. if people use the word for that then it becomes true, fair enough but then it means sandbox is now a definition for more then one type while Ikcen was referring to the type where you can change the world. Personally I go for the idea people simply use the wrong word. Just because many people name a banana fruit does not yet make it fruit.

problem is there an official explanation of what constitutes a sandbox? cause its more like a concept than something tangible. For example what constitutes changing the world? me liberating a village isnt that changing the world? helping to colonizing a new island, is that me changing the world? Crafting this new sword… is that me changing the world? You might argue the scale isnt big enough because I am changing it in predefined world but then one could reply to that, is eve really a sandbox? you can build stuff sure but its all predefined stuff not like minecraft where you can build whatever you desire!

What I am trying to say is a lot of what makes a sandbox a sandbox is up to interpretation. Some draw the line at an open world where you’re free to play in any part of it making your own game. Some like you say its not a sandbox unless you change the world (by how much is open to interpretation) simply speaking sandbox is not like fiction and non fiction where you can easily decide what falls under what.

Devata.6589:

Of course there you also find the kill x this and collect x that but it also had some real nice story quest.

I am surprised here honestly. A tight control on the economy you have no problem of blaming it on the cash shop because you feel it pressures you into engaging in RMT even though that same tight control is beneficial on the players because it avoid rampant inflation that if you played games like EQ2 you know how bad it can get. But on the other hand you see no nefarious intent behind a delay in crafting? using the same logic that if something is financial beneficial for the company then that company will exploit in, in a game like WoW where the longer it takes you to do something the longer you’ll subscribe hench the more money they’ll make, isnt it in their best interest to prolong such actions as much as possible?

Now maybe its as you say and that delay is just to create a sense of well this takes time to create. But let me ask you this, which system is more enjoyable, WoWs? or Gw2s? So that delay is really not adding anything for the player and dont get me wrong I am one for realism but the crafting delay doesnt really add that. I wouldnt remove casting animation / casting time for example, that delay is enjoyable but the crafting one? I can certainly live without it.

how can you say nothing really changes? if anything its more accurate to say things change too much rather then not change at all. Sure if you’re in a super populated map the village you just saved will be attacked in 5 minutes. If you’re all alone its much more then that btw, its more like 15 – 30 minutes (the frequency increases if there are a lot of players around) but in most cases thats not a problem at all, its more of what we know as players that kinda takes out the immersion of dynamic events because in those 5 – 30 mins its very likely you’ll have moved away unless your farming in which case you wouldnt really care about immersion. What I am saying is sure I know the little female asura (forgot her name) keeps putting on her jotin suit to study the jotins and she keeps getting dragged away cause one of them will fall in love with her. But my character only experienced it once. I know that the pirates keep trying to take the relics in lornar’s pass and the order of whispers keeps trying to stop them. But my character was only involved a few times with that. Of course there are times when this can come back. I know the troll gets angry when you take his stone and I’ve seen that 100s of times by now, not really the games fault though there are many places where I can kill champions but if I am trying to finish off a daily before I log off… he’s my favorite victim since he can be trigger on demand most of the time.

Unfortunately I never played chronicles of spellborn. But while not all of them there are dynamic events with good stories, some with funny stories but as a player who reads quest texts none of them are really generic like most of the others end up being. In most other MMOs there comes a point where I just give up and stop reading the side quests because they really end up exactly the same with 1 different line to give a similar but ever so slightly different excuse. In Gw2 I have yet to come across a dynamic event that feels like its just a slightly modified copy of another dynamic event and thats great! Of course for fairness sake those other mmos have order of magnitute more quests then gw2 has dynamic events so at some point it has to become hard to create a unique story for every quest but you know it still bugs you.

Like I said, what distinquishes quests / dynamic events is the story. In every quest or DE you’ll end up killing a of x, interact with y or move to point z. Thats unavoidable cause thats all you can really do in a game.

Zlociutki.9165:

If the GW2 will sold on the asiatic market we will get the new big expansion from AN, ordered by the NCsoft. Otherwise we will not see any new elder dragon in Gw2 from NCsoft/AN.

So whats your bases to claim Arenanet lied? since they clearly said that even if they never release and expansion we’ll still get new storylines and new elder dragons etc…

Devata.6589:

But no matter if some people have the self-control and other don’t, the pressure is there for all.

I think you might be taking stuff too much in absolute terms. Rifts decision to switch to F2P might even have had nothing to do with loosing too much of its player base. This trend that the F2P model is some shameful model you switch to as a last resort is wrong. Time and Time again F2P has proven to generate higher revenues then even a subscription. When Swtor switched to F2P it still had over 500k subs yet the switch resulted in more then double the profits. All things being Equal Rift only had 1m subs akittens peak right after launch. We all know every sub MMO with very few exceptions has the largest amount of players at launch and then declines a bit which brings me to the next point.

I played Rift when it was still P2P I mean but subscriptions make such agames tricky. I tend to take breaks from MMOs for various reasons. I am not one for your traditional end game, I get bored of it quickly. There is a new MMO I want to try. I want to go back to one of my older MMOs etc.. Subscriptions make that transition tricky. That means if I unsubscribe for me to come back a lot of conditions need to be right.. I have to grow tired of whatever I am playing and there must be no other new MMOs that I wanna try released in between. You can see how tricky that is. That being said I went back 3 or 4 times to Rift before it switched over to F2P. But in those stretches when I was not playing, should I be considered as 1 subscriber to that game? Logic says no, but I hadnt abandoned it either. Thats why I caution you on absolutes. Even if the player count falls it doesnt mean that the game failed it could be one of those transitions.

Its also why F2P makes much more sense. I have no doubt had Rift been F2P all along those transition times wouldnt have existed, I would have simply reduced a bit my play time and possibly still spend a little money here and there but even if a player plays and doesnt spend anything it still makes the game feel healthy. Though to be fair everytime I joined the world never seemed empty so I dont think this was an issue with rift at all.

So no I dont think Rift switched to F2P because it failed. And even if that was the case, I certainly dont think that happened because it did something wrong. Its just a sideeffect of that type of payment model. Subscriptions make it easy for you to loose players (try another game, run into hard times, need a break, busy month ahead etc…) and hard to get them back. Its a wall in a sort of way.

As for WoW’s cash shop, yes I agree up till now unless you were a collector it didnt pressure you much into buying anything. But WoW as a game has a very competititve enviroment that is all about getting to end game as quickly as possible and gearing up as quickly as possible. We know the cash shop is going to expand and we know for sure 2 new items will include XP boost and Lesser charms of good fortune (that essentially give you extra drops in raids) I think A LOT of players will feel pressured into buying those. But anyhow I think I disagree with your assessment that a game that has a subscription doesnt need to push for the cash shop as much as a game that just has a cash shop. In most companies those will be under different teams and each of them will have their own Key performance indicators. I dont see stock holders and board members ignoring KPIs of the cash shop teams just cause subscriptions are doing great. The team responsible for the cash shop will still do their utmost to have a great performance review at the end of the day. So I think the motivation cycle is likely to be the same in both type of games.

I have to disagree here as well I am afraid. I dont deny that some people feel pressured by the Gem store and for different reasons too. Some because they have to have gold in game others because they just cant not have a particular skin etc.. But its definitely not the case that the pressure is there and certainly not equal for all. I promise you I never felt any pressure what so ever to use the cash shop… in fact I didnt even really need to buy anything from the cash shop. What I bought I did just to support Arenanet cause I am having a lot of fun in the game and seems fair to give something back. For example I bought 2 character slots, I created the characters immediately (just cause you know hoping of Birthday presents like there was in Gw1) but to this day they’;re still there sitting on level 1.

Ikcen.7518:

Galen Grey.4709:

For starter the game was never promised as a sandbox at all. It was promised as theme park thats has sandbox elements. Personally I feel thats exactly what they delivered.

For starters sandbox are not about changing the world at all. For example GTA is considered a sandbox and you dont change anything in the world there. The actual difference between theme park and sandbox is theme park provide a clear path you have to follow.

Man, you are totally wrong. GTA never been a sandbox, it’s open world, which is something different. Most MMOs now are open world, but that doesn’t make them sandbox. Sandbox is a game in which you change the things when you play, not only personal story but the whole game. Eve is a sandbox, Minecraft is a sandbox, Archeage and Black Desert are games with many sandbox elements, Lineage 2 is game with some sandbox elements, at other site WoW is a themepark, and for sure GW2 is clean themepark. But like Anets show us banners with mounted dolyaks, which are only “art”, they are talking all the time about players who are changing the game world. The question is – do Anets believe in their own words /which shows they are incompetent/ or all is just advertisement /which makes them liars/. Yes, I’m a little bit angry, cause they sold me themepark game in a sandbox pack.

I can assure you I am not the one who considers GTA a sandbox: here are 5 big publications that also consider it a sandbox:

http://www.shacknews.com/article/79012/grand-theft-auto-dna-the-art-of-sandbox-gaming

http://www.qj.net/qjnet/playstation-3/grand-theft-auto-4-redefining-the-sandbox-game.html

http://www.psu.com/Riccitiello--GTA-IV-is-gamings-Best-Picture--a003368-p0.php —> “Riccitiello feels that the highly anticipated sandbox title will back up his assertion that videogames will soon be viewed in the same entertainment capacity as the movie industries biggest films.”

http://www.giantbomb.com/grand-theft-auto/3025-6/ —> “It pushed the medium to new graphical and technical heights, massively popularized its style of open-ended sandbox gameplay”

http://www.pcworld.com/article/145116/article.html —> “series uses its astonishing $100 million budget so effectively, in fact, that it’s difficult to imagine this deluxe sandbox and crime spree simulator being a single penny better.”

but perhpas more importantly do rockstar feel GTA is a sandbox game… asnwer seems yes:
http://support.rockstargames.com/entries/20058817-Sandbox-Modes-and-Free-Roam-in-L-A-Noire —> " Is L.A. Noire a sandbox game like GTA IV? "

Simply speaking every sandbox game is open world but not every open world is a sandbox game. It depends how you handle your open world. If you’ve got an open world but are restricted where you can play in that open world because of level, story gate or whatever then thats not a sandbox. If you’re free to play anywhere in the open world then thats a sandbox. There is more to sandbox then just building.

For example you claim Black desert is a sandbox but in black desert you cant build anything on the open world as far as i know, the housing in that game is just predefined houses in towns that you can bid for. the sandbox elements thakittens being marked off are the life like open world where npcs go about their own daily lives. An extensive trading system. And House customization.

Guess which game has something similar to an life like open world where npc go on with their daily lives? Ergo if black desert is a sandbox Gw2 shares at least one characteristic with it hence that alone would make the statement that Gw2 has some sandbox elements true!

Devata.6589:

In WoW there are multiple area’s you can level but indeed area’s are bound to a level.. just as in GW2. GW2 makes it a little more rewarding to come back but it’s not really end-content and in WoW some high level quest also lead you back to low level area’s.

The big difference is if players change the world. Like in a sandbox where you can dig a whole or build a castle.. thats why they name it sandbox. WoW does not give that option and GW2 does not give you that option. The fact that you pretty much pick your own route makes it open world and both WoW and GW2 have that.

Thats the brilliant part though, there is no end game content so that all the world remains compelling. On my server the starter areas are way more populated then level 80 zones for example. Risk vs Reward starter areas arent that bad. you can finish a dynamic event there in a fraction of the time it takes to finish an event in a lvl 80 area and you’re just paid 30% less.

I disagree, well to a degree.. obviously change is a big thing but then again that was in Gw1 too and they never even mentioned as much as a hint of sandbox in there. Thats a hallmark of the series so to speak where as in other MMOs an NPC tells you to save his town from war by reducing the enemy army size and then when you go back after doing as ask you’re thanked for saving them as you look back in the direction of the enemy army and you see them no smaller then before you killed the first soldier. In Gw1 and Gw2 that change actually happens. In Gw1 it would persist so long as you remained in the zone and reset when you get out. In Gw2 it persist until another event cycles to try to change the state back. Obviously its impossible to have stuff happen only once in a game with millions of players who all need something to do. So now they’re trying to create change by creating situations that then are removed once resolved. Feels better but then there is the issue of the temporary content. Hopefully they’ll find a better balance to make everyone happy.

Its more then just open world. Open world means you can go where ever you go but that alone isnt a sandbox trait. A sandbox trait is you can also play where you go. In WoW you can go where you want sure but you can only play in your designated area. Another trait of sandbox related to this is you can choose what content to play. Again in WoW you cannot you can only play the quests of your own level you cannot choose which ever quest you want to play, in Gw2 you can. Yet another trait is you make up yourself what you want to do. In WoW if you want to level up thats questing or killing. In Gw2 to a degree you’re free not because you can create what you want to do you cannot but rather because the game provides a lot of options. In Gw2 you dont level just by killing and question but also by exploring, crafting, gathering, doing jumping puzzles, PvP, WvW etc.. Its really much more then open world. And again keep in mind we’re not saying Gw2 is a sandbox it isnt, just that it shares traits with a sandbox traits that in games like WoW they’re just missing.

Well we’re going to have the first example of how players can change the world next tuesday were we get to vote for those two candidates and whoever wins will dictate what bonuses will get for a month but more importantly what historical research will be conducted in the mists. Again it has a small sandboxy feel but I wouldnt say anyone including arenanet would claim thats a full fledge sandbox.

Devata.6589:

The craft time in WoW is just based on 1 item takes x time. Don’t tell me they just do that so it takes you longer. GW2 was very smart and reduces that with every try. It’s simply not something Blizzard did think of and I would not be surprised if they would introduce that in a future patch.

“You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed.” Not sure what you want to say with this. You did say flight paths where there so everything would take you longer didn’t you? I think they are there because it makes more sense as teleporting all over the map (more immersive) and so you get the feeling of a big world.

“Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear” that part is true however personally I think the leveling is a little boring for alts. Kill x attacking centaur to scare them away, collect x that, find x samples. In other games many of the quest where similar but you could also go for the quest that had more of a story and usually they even gave you more xp. To make the leveling more fun in GW2 that would not be a bad addition. But indeed purely looking at the time it takes less time to get to 80 and some exotic lvl 80 gear (at least for the first char, alt chars tent to go faster then the first char in other MMO’s while in GW2 they all have the same speed).

This goes back to what I said in my previous post, at the end of the day the time it takes to craft an item is all fake. it takes a few ms for the game to create your item, its just posting an entry in a database. If you craft 1 or craft a 100000 items of the same type I assure you technically server side it takes precisely the same amount of time. Even the time it takes to craft stuff in Gw2 is artificially inflated. Its not that WoW didnt think of it, its actually an intended time sink.

Every quest in every game boils down to kill x of something, interact with object/personal y or move to location z. What makes them different as you say is the story. But Dynamic Events have that. Most them are nearly a small movie if you follow the whole chain. Also the fact that you just need 17 dynamic events to level up no matter what level you are is great. I dont know which MMOs you played but some have you doing 100s of quests to lvl up and in most cases creativity really takes a nose dive. first you’re given a generic reason to go kill X of Y you come back and they give you another generic reason to go kill another X of Y (y is the same create you just killed) and you want to strangle the NPC right there for not telling you to collect the teeth off the wolves last time when he had sent you to collect their hides.

In Gw2 while tasks might be very similar at their core there is a compelling story to you see unfolding right in front of your eyes. For me thats the best selling point of this game.

Devata.6589:

I don’t know how Rift did it but the fact that another company does something wrong does not make it a good excuse for you to do the same.
snip..

You make a very important point… Is having you start with a reduced amount of the maximum storage you can have and have you work for it wrong?

At the end of the day every game is a time sink, its meant to keep you busy and have you enjoy your time while you’re being kept busy. A game is balanced between effort and reward. Every “Chore” I have to make in the game is obviously Artificial but again is it really wrong? There is a whole spectrum, if my target is to get Best in slot gear… if that translates to at least a couple of years to get to max level and then another year of running the same raid … that would be bad for most people, few would enjoy that experiance. If you had a game were you log in, you kill 1 mob which drops every possible item you could get in that game too. Would that be good ? Nope it would be worst then the first example because hopefully the fictious really grindy game would have kept me happy for a couple of months until it started to feel like I was not getting anywhere.

So focusing on our Storage space issue… As we said a game is about having you trade in time for enjoyement and it does that by having you do a variety of things one of which is expanding your Inventory. Technically thats not any different from leveling your crafting, leveling up, gearing up, housing and any other game mechanic. Its just another goal to work with because the more varied stuff you have the less daunting stuff will be.

Lets thinking about that, If a game has leveling up, crafting, gearing up, storage expansion and housing and for the sake of argument there is 100 hrs of content each then that game can potentially keep you busy for 500 hrs. 100 hrs leveling up doesnt feel too bad (infact its a bit on the short side) but if it only had leveling up to keep you busy for 500hrs it would need to set the leveling experiance to take 500hrs to achieve and that would most likely feel worst then the game who has you spend 100 hrs doing 1 thing then 100 doing another etc…

So again can we really state that starting out with a limited storage space is a bad thing? Also its not just rift by the way… Except for Eve Online I cant think of any game that has you start with maximum storage space. In fact even non multiple player games like Skyrim have you expand your storage gradually.

Why would you say that if a game has a cash shop and a subscription they dont have to push the cash shop as well? Did they put in the cash shop as a sort of charity exercise? no they made it to make more money and for no other reason. Everyone wants to maximize profits. Just look at Blizzards balance sheet. they have 8m subscribers. They issue an expansion every 1.5 years give or take that means from just box sales they make 320m per year… they spend 220m on their entire Online games business (not just WoW) so technically they dont even need to charge a subscription to make a healthy profit. Yet not only the charge a full subscription but they have a cashshop thats gonna get expanded. They dont have to but hey there is money there so why not?

You’re right there… I agree they shouldnt strive to not be the worst, they should strive to be the best… Granted! I dont know if they’re the best or not, but I think they’re pretty close to the top. Which games have a better cash shop in your opinion? They allow you to earn many of the new items they put from sale in game (the weapon skins). For the rest you can even use in game money to acquire them. They sell them directly to you rather then other games like eden eternal where the stuff they put in the cash shop can be bought by players who then resell it for their chosen in game price… In games like that most of that stuff is unaffordable I assure you.

Yes no doubt that whether you can live happily playing the game without spending a cent in the cash shop is a matter of opinion. I can tell you that I bought 5 things off the cash shop. The halloween costume, 2 character slots, the axe and the pickaxe. Except for the halloween costume I could have bought the rest using in game money but in each case I used real money (well not the axe that I bought through in game money to be honest) simply because I wanted to support the game not because I had no other choice and that includes the Halloween costume. Of course there are people who claim have spend $500 in 1 month trying to get some of the skins, I am sure those people had a different experience with the cash shop then I did but then that brings us to another issue. lack of self control. Is it really fair to blame a game if a person finds it hard to cope with not being able to acquire a specific item? After all in which game can you really have everything?

Devata.6589:

In my opinion all mmo’s do that. Including GW2 and the F2P games.

Flight paths I think are more to make the game more immersive and show the size of the world. Lets face it.. teleporting all over the map is not the most immersive thing in GW2 and it makes the world much smaller.

About the rng loot in dungeons, usually you don’t ‘need’ that loot to go on, it is a nice to have, many times it are even mini’s or mounts. Sometimes the armor gives you a little bit extra power but not so much that you need it to go on. In GW2 you also need to do multiple runs to get your set from one dungeon (thats a nice to have) they just don’t have rare items drop from dungeons (I mean like the one we did have in MF and AR). In fact it could use some more rare drop from dungeons and mobs. It’s one part of the end-content many people are missing.

This is what I dont get, everyone dislikes Teleporting but then they do it all the time. Its rare when I teleport even once in a typical game session. why is it so difficult to walk to where you want to go? its such a beautiful world its really a joy doing thakittens not that long to get anywhere you want either 3 zones and you can get to any point in the world. Why do people have to be forced in something in order for them to enjoy it.

I think we need a 3rd candidate for the upcoming election and that candidate should promise to disable way points for a month so maybe people will realise walking around isnt so bad!

Devata.6589:

If your definition of sandbox would be correct all mmo’s would be sandbox while there is a clear difference between a sandbox mmo and a non-sandbox mmo. But your example of GTA is a little outdated. When GTA was released it was the first big game of it’s genre . type.. a genre / type that did not really have a name yet. Back then people tried to define it and some people named it sandbox but that was not really accurate other people named it ‘open world’ and it even got it’s own name ‘Grand Theft Auto clone’. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_clone I think Open World does fit the best. And yes GW2 is also an open word like GTA but they are both not sandbox while looking at what Anet wants they seem to want a sandbox game while there aren’t a sand-box game.

Thats not really an issue for me I can life with both, however I think Anet should if they really want those thinks they say convert it into sandbox or else change what they want.

But this was just to comment on the GTA – sandbox comment.

Just to clarify I didnt say Gw2 is a sandbox I said it has sandbox elements and no I disagree that based on my description all MMOs are sandboxes. The key factor I mentioned is you have to be free to play the way you want and where you want. In WoW at max level I cant decide to go play in Elwynn Forest because there will be no quests for me to do and i get no reward / progression. If I am max level I am forced to play max level content. In those theme parks I am essentially guided on a path through content invalidation and gear gating. Thats different then what you’ll find in Gw2.
Think of it this way if you had to get a random player in WoW as they play you’ll see them following a vertical path (were low level content is at the bottom and high level content is at the top) In Gw2 you’ll see them all over the place.

As for games like GTA and Skyrim its more or less the same thing. there isnt a clear delineation of areas / level and you’re forced of doing missions / quests in those areas while at that level. You’re free to go any place on the map and play there. Thats what classifies them as sandboxes really.

Anyhow how does Arenanet seem to want a sandbox game? we dont even have housing yet which would probably the first thing anyone should implement on the road to a real sandbox game!

Devata.6589:

Yeah and some things might be because of the cash-shop and some won’t. Fact is that if they need to get there income from a cash-shop they will try to make people buy from it in one way or the other. They simply need to. Nobody can ever proof what decision is made directly because of that and what is decision is not.. well except if somebody secretly records a meeting where the financial people talk about it and he puts it online. But you do know that if they focus on the gem-store some decisions are based on it.

As you know I blame the temporary content (being it temporary in-game stuff or items only temporary available in the gem-store), gold-driven system (thats something else as low income) and rng-boxes to that. Yeah I think the limited char slots have to do with it but giving you 5 and even giving you the option to buy more with ingame gold seems totally fair to me. No complain there.

You say “In fact most arguments I heard can be easily disproved.” but thats also not true. You mean you can always find some possible reason why they would have made a decision in a way that the gem-store was not the reason. And yeah I can also come up with some theoretical reason why they did some of those thinks I blame to the gem-store focus without it being because of the gem-store focus but that also dot not make it true.

Fact is that if a company needs to get there income from the cash-shop they will try to get people to buy from it and so make ingame decisions to try them to do so. Decisions people notice and some people may not like. B2W is the most infamous example but there are many more that are not B2W.

With a focus on expansions there is no need for a focus on the gem-store and so no need for decisions that infect the game and are there to try to get people to buy gems. So whatever those decisions will be there is no need for them anymore.

Every business wants to maximize profits thats a given but there is a different ways to go about that. When I said most arguments can be disproved as the example I’ve given its because other games that have no cash shop or selling no such items do exaclty the same thing. Example Rift when it was still P2P and had no cash shop still had you pay a ton of money to unlock more storage space. That means its a clear indication that having an MMO with limited storage space (limited as in it doesnt start immediately at maximum) is not a ploy to have you pay money its a game mechanic a lot of MMOs use. This is not a theoretical exercise. Most of the stuff people blame the cash shop for are implemented the same way in games without cash shops. Limited storage space, Limited character slots, Hard to acquire items, etc.. etc.. in short I am not saying they can be disproved because I can think of an alternative reason for them, obviously like you say you can fit everything in both categories that way. I am saying they can be disproved because games those same mechanics are found in games that have no cash shop.

Not really. As long as you have a cash shop technically its still in your best interest to push people into buying irrespective of what other revenue stream you have. That doesnt mean you’re going to. I am sure you’ll agree with me there are some cash shops that are worst then others. If you compare Atlantica Online with Swtor and Gw2 you can see different methods of pushing people into buying. In Atlantica Online you’re essentially forced to pay and a lot to be competitive. The best mercenaries can be bought for like $70 each. New ones are continually added and without them you stand no chance against someone who has a full set. On top of that there are various blessings you can get that speed up leveling a lot which is also a must to be competitive. These blessings one could claim are like a $30 a month subscription in fact.

Then you also have Swtor. They dont have anything in game thats severely affected by the cash shop but to enjoy the game properly you need to buy quite a few things.

All these games want to drive people to their cash shop, no doubt but just cuase they all drive people to their cash shop are they all equally bad?

In Atlantica online you’re not going to enjoy playing the game without spending a ton of money at high level. In Swtor you’re not going to be happy unless you spend a bit of money to get the missing functionality. In Gw2 you can play happily without ever spending a single cent.

That is not to say you’ll have everything you might desire from Gw2 without spending money but none of what there is negatively effects you experience while in those other examples there are things that negatively effect you experience. Driving people to your cash shop (which I agree everyone does and thats regardless of additional revenue streams) is different then doing everything humanly possible to drive people to your cash shop, thats what I am trying to say.

Ikcen.7518:

This game was promised as a sandbox MMO, but it’s not. It’s clean themepark. The difference between both is the interest. In themepark you play for losing time, or some statistics – GW2, in sandbox you play more, cause you change the game world. So many ideas in this game fail cause it’s themepark. Dynamic events fail, great bosses fail, WvW fail and etc. If you play or not, this change nothing in GW2. But Anet made other mistakes /for me/ too. They implement so much PvE solo, which with 4 guilds system, and lack of 1vs1 PvP, makes GW2 even not a real MMO, but some kind of classic single player game put on an online platform. That’s why I think GW2 will fade soon after the new generation MMO’s start.

For starter the game was never promised as a sandbox at all. It was promised as theme park thats has sandbox elements. Personally I feel thats exactly what they delivered.

For starters sandbox are not about changing the world at all. For example GTA is considered a sandbox and you dont change anything in the world there. The actual difference between theme park and sandbox is theme park provide a clear path you have to follow. A main story, Leveling quests from 1 → max level that go one way etc.. Sandbox is more about the freedom of playing what you want. Gw2 has a little of that. Dynamic events are part of that for example. They dont have a set path you have to follow. They not tied to quest hubs which you go through as you level up like other theme parks. For example in Gw2 there is no problem reaching max level and then doing an event in Wayfarer hills. In typical Theme park that doesnt exist. Once you out level an area than that basically stops existing for that character. In Sandbox games like say Eve online though the whole world is your playground and Gw2 shares those elements.

The whole thing with Sandbox games is how you play the game is something you dictate rather then what the game dictates. However I dont get it, on side you claim to want a sandbox which I would imagine means you like sandbox games thus should be accustomed to playing your way rather then how a game forces you to play. Yet you then make this statement “They implement so much PvE solo”. The only solo play there is are hearts everything else is not really solo play at all. They implemented content that scales from 1 player to 10 players (every event in the world) and content that scales from 5 – 25 players (group events) and also content that scales to 100 people (world bosses)

if you’re playing solo is because you decided to play solo. Sure the game allows you to play solo if you want… thats one of the sandbox element, freedom of choice. But also rewards you if you team up. Team up with a guild member and you’ll get 5x the amount of influence you get solo for your guild. So do an event solo and you get 2 influence. Be in a group with 1 other guild member and you’ll get 10 influence. The event will also scale up with means more enemies which means more loot ergo more reward.

Right a lack of 1v1 makes a game not a real MMO. I mean a Massive Multiplayer Online game that supports 500vs500vs500 battles on 4 maps (so really at one time you can have 6000 players fighting against each other is not really a Massive Multiplayer Online Game cause you cannot have 1vs1 (though you can have that too with custom arenas but never mind….

Maybe it will fade like you’re saying who knows… Right now its probably the 2nd most profitable MMO and it hasnt even launched in the biggest MMO market yet so forgive me if I dont share your opinion on this.

I dont think they should be removed. Some people like them and thats reason enough for them to stay. If someone doesnt care about leader boards or finds them unfair, they should simply ignoring them. Why is that reason enough to take away something other people love?

At the end of the day people will always find something to complain about. If you remove leader boards those who hate them might stop complaining or more likely find something else to complain about. At the same time you’ll get people who liked the achievement leader boards complaining so its very likely the situation will be made worst not better.

This is not to say that complains should be ignored of course, some of them are valid and should be addressed if possible. But what I am saying is if we removed everything from the universe that people complain about we’d all be living in a vacuum of blackness by now.

As for Hom specifically, I dont mind they’re there. While guild wars 1 isnt specifically part of Gw2, Gw1 players did great efforts to get those points nothing wrong with them being rewarded. People who expect a perfect leveling field just arent objective. There will always be some unbalance effecting stuff. Sure Players who played Gw1 have an advantage. there is unbalance there too, GW1 PVE players have an advantage over GW1 PVP players. likewise PVE players have an advantage over PVP players in Gw2 as well (this should be addressed IMHO btw). Players with more time on their hand have an advantage over others who dont have as much time. Players who can afford to play every day have an advantage over those who dont. Thats not going to change and is part of the game.

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

morrolan.9608:

Devata.6589:

But there is no need for the cash-shop focus if they go for an expansion-pack focus. The problem was that they suddenly started to focus on the gem-store and had no plants for expansions anymore. That means that they sort of took the model of a F2P game and I agree thats bad. But if they indeed turn back to the expansion pack focus they can drop the gem-store focus and the thinks you dislike about it should also go away.

And after getting a lot of complains about those things expansions are now back on the table. So lets hope they go for that.

The “GW2 model” at this moment resembles more a F2P model then a B2P model. Thats the problem.

Yep I agree with this as well. But it won’t happen, too many design decisions have been embedded in the game funnelling players towards the gem shop and appealing to the ‘whales’. They would have to roll back these as well as get an expansion out.

Can you people be a bit specific… What game design decisions did Gw2 take that steers it towards the F2P in a bad way?

Also @Devata you claim Gw2 when more towards f2p then to b2p… compared to what exactly? there was only one other b2p game that I am aware of and thats Gw1 which you say you never played. So which B2P game did you play prior to Gw2 that you were hoping Gw2 business model would follow exactly?

Technically at this point, TSW is also buy to play.

The thing is, after playing many F2P MMOs, Guild Wars 2 is NOTHING like them. There’s no way to compare GW 2 to SWToR or Lotro or DDO, or Perfect World…it’s just a different system.

I mean in some of those games, content needs to be purchased separately for you to even play. SWToR is almost impossible to play without paying monthly. There’s no p2w in Guild Wars 2, there’s no content locked off by the cash shop.

So I’m not sure of Devata’s point.

True but If I brought up TSW I am sure I will get retorted with TSW didnt start B2P it started P2P.

If we go beyond the switch though I guess the same arguments that can be made for Gw2 can also be made for TSW.

You can buy stuff like Instant AP packs so you could argue that leveling is intentionally slowed down to pressure you into buying them, yet as far as I can tell the leveling wasnt modified from its P2P times.

You can buy storage space… again the base storage as far as I know was not reduced from when it was P2P.

You can even buy straight up advantages like bonus to attack rating and removal of conditions etc..

Yet at the same time they’re also selling access to content B2P style.

I personally do not see the clear lines between B2P, F2P and P2P some people suggest there are. Especially now a days all models share the same design decisions and sell the same kind of stuff in their cash shops. For a while having cash shops in P2P was unheard of, now they all have it (or nearly all) like wise things change for the better. A long time ago F2P meant you could buy the best equipment in the game, now thats essentially gone. What I am trying to say is now a days you can never say in B2P and P2P business model you will never find X because thats something only F2P do. Those rules just dont exist. At the end of the day is what you get.

You dont like game design X , thats perfectly fine but dont blame it on the business model cause most likely thats got nothing to do with it. Besides now more or less games are trying to include every type of business model Just look at Swtor or Lotro they’re free to play, buy to play and have a subscription as well. P2P have introduced cash shop or in case of TSW straight out started with one. Lines between what it means to be P2P, B2P and F2P are just no there, definitely not any longer.

morrolan.9608:

Devata.6589:

But there is no need for the cash-shop focus if they go for an expansion-pack focus. The problem was that they suddenly started to focus on the gem-store and had no plants for expansions anymore. That means that they sort of took the model of a F2P game and I agree thats bad. But if they indeed turn back to the expansion pack focus they can drop the gem-store focus and the thinks you dislike about it should also go away.

And after getting a lot of complains about those things expansions are now back on the table. So lets hope they go for that.

The “GW2 model” at this moment resembles more a F2P model then a B2P model. Thats the problem.

Yep I agree with this as well. But it won’t happen, too many design decisions have been embedded in the game funnelling players towards the gem shop and appealing to the ‘whales’. They would have to roll back these as well as get an expansion out.

Can you people be a bit specific… What game design decisions did Gw2 take that steers it towards the F2P in a bad way?

Also @Devata you claim Gw2 when more towards f2p then to b2p… compared to what exactly? there was only one other b2p game that I am aware of and thats Gw1 which you say you never played. So which B2P game did you play prior to Gw2 that you were hoping Gw2 business model would follow exactly?

Obsidian.1328:

2 years ago I would have agreed with you Vayne, but seeing how much of an influence the cash-shop can have on non-sub game content…I hate it.

I’ve heard this argument many times before but it was never accompanied by compelling evidence. In fact most arguments I heard can be easily disproved. Thing is its easy to link stuff together and its easy to see a reason behind that link but that doesnt necessarily make it so.

Example A common argument I hear often is games that dont have a subscription limit storage space as to force you to buy extra space. Link being most f2p / b2p games do in fact sell extra storage space and a logical thinking if they sell it, they obviously want people to buy it so they logically limit it in order to force people to buy it.

Is that true however? Aion, Rift, WoW and many other MMOs when they were subscription based also employed a limited inventory that required the players to buy expansion for it using in game money. There is no doubt in such games that limited inventory is a game mechanic and not a way to push people into spending money. Yet just because Gw2 is selling inventory expansion I’ve seen people blame its free to play nature for that. (like Aion, rift and WoW before hand you can also expand the inventory using in game money if you want to) So really is that “limited” inventory the result of no subscription or just one more goal for people to reach?

This can be said for many other things. Low in game income can be blamed on the gems to in game money but it can also be tight control on inflation. XP boosters can be blamed for slow leveling up curve even though clearly it was much harder to level up in P2P MMOs that sold no XP boosters. etc.. etc.. It is easy to blame something one might not like on the cash shop but that doesnt automatically mean that design choice was made in service to the cash shop.

And once again another example of why we can’t have nice things. As the saying goes no good deed will ever go unpunished.

Honestly people why cant you appreciate the gesture instead of analyzing everything trying to find something wrong / evil to critic?

What gives this gesture power is the very fact its unexpected! Arenanet give stuff to everyone periodically. The horns, The witch’kitten, the doll this/last month etc.. They’re nice but not as nice as the kite and the mini set before that. The mini set was entirely unexpected. The kite… also entirely unexpected who’d expect them to do that just 1 month later?

Gifts are gifts, People who expected Arenanet to co-ordinate with them about the gifts, do they expect people who give them gifts for holidays and birthdays do the same? do they argue with family members who dont co-ordinate any gifts they plan to give them that they’re breaking their trust because there is a chance they’ll get the same gift from multiple people or something they dont like without said co-ordination? if thats what they do I kinda bet they no longer get any gifts anymore.

Thing is a gift is something that is entirely owned by whoever is doing the gifting. See it from that point of view. If you want to buy a gift to a loved one/ family member etc.. you find it sensible you need to advice them from before, tell them what you’re planning to do etc… etc.. that would essentially remove the benefit of gifting, the appreciation of getting something unexpected. The light in the receiver eyes when they get something they like etc..

Same here, the fact its unexpected is what it gives it power. When they give free stuff just like that with an update… ohh cool, bit happy thats it. When they do something like this? pleasantly surprised and appreciative.

Vayne.8563:

Peter.8047:

Vayne.8563:

Peter.8047:

I want a full expansion. These quick little events that only last a small amount of time are not equal to a full expansion. At this rate we will never see any new skills, character classes, races or a new full map.

These events every 2 weeks are fine, as long as you are also creating a complete expansion as well.

At this point in GW1’s life, Factions was coming out soon. A brand new campaign, 2 new characters, a whole new map, 100’s of skills, brand new armor sets and new enemies as well as a new a multiplayer mode and challenge missions.

All we have in GW2 a year later, is fractals and some new gem store items.
We want new character classes, new races, new armor and weapons, new weapon types for each character, a new map (just remake Cantha GW2 style), a new multi-player game type with 3-4 maps, more guild features like guild halls and GvG.

If you can deliver this type of core content without an expansion then that’s fine, but these little 2 week mini updates just feel like something to keep us busy for a few hours, rather then a true full expansion experience.

And the amount of content combined between Factions and Prophecies is still considerably less than the amount of content in Guild Wars 2.

That is to say, after Guild Wars 1 was out a year and Factions was released, there was less Guild Wars 1 content than there was Guild Wars 2 content at launch.

That maybe so, but I played Prophecies from the day it launched all the way up until the day Factions launched, never stopped and never got bored. I played GW2 until December and stopped because I was completely bored (Came back to check out the event, already bored again. See the problem here?). I feel the smaller amount of content in GW1 was much stronger, especially compared to these little mini updates.

This may also be due to the fact that I have not had to ever change my characters skills (since theres a total of like… 5 per class exaggerating) and the SPvP is complete trash, but those are flaws with the actual game itself and not so much the “content”.

I guess I want an expansion because in my mind that’s the only way ANet can improve all the things I don’t like about the game and also add all the things I want in the game. It feels like since we are just getting these smaller updates, the game is going to stay completely the same (no new skills, no new characters, no new PvP, no new real maps, no permanent changes to the game).

Like I said before, if they can find a way to add these major things through these small updates then fine. If by the end of the year we have a new race and a new character and a new map to explore, I will be happy. And also, I’d be cool with them doing the small updates IF they were also working on a full expansion pack at the same time, then I’d be completely cool with it.

Both my sons played Prophecies at launch and were bored in a period of a couple of months. They went to WoW and stayed there for five years. One bought factions, got bored after a month.

Me, I started in WoW and migrated to Guild Wars 1 and never looked back.

If you were a PvPer, of course Guild Wars 1 was a much better game. If you’re a PvE’er, it’s hard to imagine you not getting bored with Guild Wars 1 periodically.

I am a PvE’er and Guild wars 1 was my favorite MMO prior to GW2 hands down. Different people have different tastes I guess

Devata.6589:

GW1 became big as being B2P where indeed expansion where the focus. No temporary stuff.
snip.

Ok fine, pressured not forced… fair enough. My argument still stands though are we really pressured or is more like they’re monetizing a need? If we use your logic on the restaurant industry you’re basically arguing that the world will suffer famine because restaurants will push famine on people since it increases their income if people are hungry. In truth that doesnt happen. Restaurants dont work to spread famine, they know its there and they just try to monetize it by actually creating incentives.

Gw2 could be doing the same. In most respects Gw1 required much heavier farming to acquire stuff. In fact apart from legendaries and stuff that requires a lot of charged/corrupted lodestones I’d say everything in Gw2 is much easier to get then in Gw1. Gw1 however didnt have any RMT so the reason for the big effort was a genuine game design meant to give goals for people to work towards while playing. The same might be true in Gw2 only Arenanet are trying to monitize people who just arent willing to put in all the effort required and want to take a short cut.

I completely agree to adding armor pieces as rare drops in dungeons. Thats a very good idea imho. full support there

I dont think mini are but afaik almost everything else is a very rare drop. Example this screenshot shows someone looting a precursor off a dead mob:
http://i.imgur.com/yGjnUDRh.jpg

Mats are farmable right now. I explained this before, you’re comparing farming mats with CoF P1 a path thats just out of balance. That path simply pays at least 4x the amount it should thats why you’re not considering farming mats directly viable and just like nothing else is viable compared to CoF P1. but think of it this way, CoF P1 is like one of those CEOs that are payed in millions. Farming mat is your average job with an average pay. Does the fact a CEO earn more then an average pay make most jobs not viable?

I guess having not played Gw1 its understand that you might find it hard to see it but I am pretty sure it is precisely intended it takes a lot of effort to get the mats required to build certain stuff. In Gw1 it was in a way worst because not only you needed stuff that was expensive / had a rare drop and you needed quite a bit of it but you also had another factor, some of the materials dropped in really hard areas that are even nearly impossible to solo. In Gw2 difficult as a gate isnt used but I guess thats offset with bigger requirements in a way.

In the grand scheme of things it makes sense. We all need a goal to work towards, it makes things more interesting. Stats are very easy to get but cosmetic stuff requires work. Some sets are easy to get, crafting, dungeons etc.. But some sets like say Mjolnir require a ton of work to get. Legendary weapons require even more. But thats what gives them status. Gw1 was the same. It had prestige armors that werent that hard to get. For example Ancient armor required 40 platinum + a few rare materials that could be bought relatively cheaply or even crafting using common materials. Then you had armor like say Vabbian armor that cost just 25 plat in terms of gold but used extremely rare materials that had really low drop rates and couldnt be build from common materials. The cost of these materials would be around 400 extra platinum pieces. You had armor like say the kurzick armor that while it could be had for relatively a small amount of money it required a lot of reputation with the faction so it required a lot of work in that camp. Then you had obsidian armor that uses rare materials that only drop in the most difficult areas in the game, the ones that are very hard to solo. You could buy the materials and avoid there but the cost would be well above 1000 platinum.

So just like Gw2, Gw1 had stuff that you could earn relatively easy in a few weeks. It also had stuff that took months to earn and that was definitely not motivated by the cash shop cause you couldnt use real money to get your self a short cut to it in anyway.

Devata.6589:

No really not as thats not what I am saying. I am not comparing it to an sub-scription based game and I also don’t play them. I am comparing B2P to F2P.

Whats bad about F2P.. or better whats bad about cash-shop focus. Well in the case of GW2 thats the temporary content. I don’t like temporary content thats there to pressure people to play and buy gems. I prefer a B2P game where I buy the game and expansions and then have always access to all the aspects of the game based on the fact that I did buy the game and the expansion. No temporary stuff to try and get me to play / buy gems. No currency-driven system because they want me to buy gems and convert it to gold in stead of farming mats. No game where decisions ingame are based on the question “how do we get people to buy gems” in stead of “how do we get the game to be so good people will also buy the expansions”.

You might not have a problem with gem-store focus, I do.

And you don’t have to compare it to an sub-based game as this thread is about the other option.. expansion based / B2P.

You know how many assumptions you’re doing here? For starters you say that you choose b2p because you buy the game and then get access to everything. That was never promised by anyone, not Gw2, not Gw1 not any other B2P game I am aware off. In fact I am not aware of any B2P game that doesnt charge for extras.

The currency driven system is a good thing. It means you can play any content of the game you want and still get the stuff you want. Gw1 did that too. Just cause you can use gems as a short cut it doesnt mean the game is forcing you to buy gems. If Gw1 had RMT you’d have felt the same. Plenty of stuff in that game that was a nightmare to farm. Diamonds, Some of the hero armor, Sapphires, etc.. the Guild wars series was always about getting the most powerful stuff easily but then the nice cosmetic stuff required dedication.

As discussed in other threads I concede that putting stuff for a short period of time on trade post can in some cases make you pay more. But your other arguments here are pure speculation. Just cause you’re offered a short cut it doesnt mean you’re being forced to take it. And most certainly B2P itself is not in it self any sort of guarantee of how the game will grow in the future in the sense of what direction devs are going to take.

Devata.6589:

VOLKON.1290:

So many words, so I’ll be brief.

Screw expansions.

Here’s the skinny. We know that there are now four teams working on Living Story content in four month cycles. That in itself is a lot. We also know that there are other teams working on the big, juicy stuff as well, things that take longer to refine and deliver. Things worthy of expansions. You all need to realize we’re getting the best of all worlds here… a constant influx of new content to do in between the big releases of major content. Look at games that rely on expansions. They toss you an expansion, you burn through it in a month and wait four or six months recycling the same old stuff waiting for the next release.

We’re getting a constant flow of new things to do while the “big” stuff is being developed. That works for me.

No you don’t get best of 2 worlds you get worse of 2 worlds. You get a F2P game that you payed for to play. To me thats the worse of to worlds.

I know what you mean.. whats the problem, a nice story leading up to content thats the same as an expansion. Sounds good I agree and they might indeed deliver the same amount of content. Thats not the issue here.

The problem for me (there are some other reasons for other people) is that you also have to think about the business behind it. I signed up for a B2P game because I do not like F2P game because of there focus on cash-shops (like the temporary content, but I will not go further into that now). So now Anet does not work with expansions they are focusing on the gem-store for income.

Thats my problem with it.

It’s not the idea of content overtime that leads to the same amount as a expansion would do. that by itself (forgetting the business behind it) would be fine. But there is a business behind it so we can’t forget about that.

Thing is the business mode isnt strictly speaking the players business its the company’s. We knew there was going to be a cash shop and we knew whakittens going to sell. Nothing changed there. P2P, B2P or F2P is not a contract that guarantees you’ll find certain things in the game and not others. Essentailly every P2P game (definitely the big ones) eventually introduced a cash shop for example. What would you say there? people have the impression that paying a subscription + box sale gives you everything and now suddenly hmm nope there are extras you can buy. Is that some sort of betrayal by the company on a previous agreed conduct? Not at all. There is no agreement just cause you invested in their business model. They’re free to monetize the game any way they want. Gw2 Cash shop is one of the best implementations. Nothing thats essential and if you cant afford real money you can still get everything though just playing.

Dont base your entire perception on what you believe they’re going to do based on their business model choices base it on the actions they do because after all like I already pointed out before, if they sell an expansion it doesnt mean they’ll not be cash shop focused at the same time and like wise just cause they’re cash shop focused it doesnt mean they will not do whats best for the game. Again pointing at WoW, thats a subscription MMO yet for a while they sold vanity pets / mounts… people were okey with that since for the most part it didnt impact the game… indirectly it allowed for RMT but anyhow…. now they’re gonna start selling XP boosts and Lesser Charms that can be converted into Elder charms that essentially give you extra loot from high level bosses. Players are calling that Pay to Win. So once again a certain business model does not protect you from the stuff you hate of other business models. The business model itself is meaningless in this regard in my opinion. Its what they do that really counts.

DiogoSilva.7089:

It’s not up to the player, it’s up to Anet and how they design this game. The argument that this game is perfect and players are to blame is not a very good one.

snip..

You missunderstand me, I am not blaming the players for anything, I am saying its up to them to do what they will. Thats the game design. Gw2 is a hybrid between a themepark and a sandbox on many levels. To explain myself a bit better, just imaging getting BIS armor on a typical MMO… That involves the same thing in most of them. IE get to max level then raid until you get that drop. There is no devation from that because the game is designed with that 1 progression path in mind. Now lets take GW2. Some people are just accustomed to that path and get to level 80 and then repeat arah 23 times for the armor set. That person then states GW2 is no different because it made him repeat dungeons just like any other MMO. Would that be the players fault? nope, the player did what he wanted to do there is nothing good or bad about that. Is it bad Game design? Of course no, what that player choose to do isnt the only way to got an exotic armor set. He could have played WvW, He could have Crafted a set, He could have done Dynamic Events and bought the set with money off the TP, he could have done Dynamic Events and bought it with karma. etc… The game does the only thing it can do, leave the player free to make his/her choice. Thats not bad game design, thats what more games will hopefully do in the future.

As for player skills, what they promised is actually the opposite I am afraid. They promised you dont have to be a hardcore player to keep up. They promised you can take a break, come back and not find yourself fallen behind. They promised accessability that to get the best armor / weapon all you had to do is play the content you enjoy.

I am afraid that you’re missing a lot of what the game has to offer. This MMO is one of the few where there is some real exploring to do. I would call POI or vista exploring at all. There are hidden events, there is hidden lore, there are hidden areas and even hidden rewards. Even lore, there is lore absolutely everywhere in the game. Its just not in your face. If you talk to NPCs, read scrolls/books, interact with objects you’ll get tons of lore etc.. Every NPC in a dynamic event will explain their role in that event’s story etc.. As for stuff to discover here are a couple of examples if you want to know the sort of things you can discover:

There are many such secrets scattered all around. Some even give unique rewards like town cloths. Some just make you laugh. Others provide lore. But there is much more to exploration than running from POI to vistas I assure you.

Vetrie.7804:

etiolate.9185:

There are people who would complain that they come back and there’s a ton of content that is overwhelming.

They may also complain that the new content that was added months ago while they were away is now empty and there is nobody who will play it with them. (Sort of like going to Southsun outside of a relevant LS update.)

It should also be understood that the Living Story is a content delivery method and philosophy, not just a single feature that "has taken over the game’. The “Living World” may end up being an unfortunate choice of words by PR. What Living Story/World means is that patches will follow a story rather than just appear.

This doesn’t mean I am against there being more permanent content. I am all for that. I believe everyone, including ANet, sees the current ratio of temporary to permanent content as unsatisfactory.

You dont get it at all. This content was temorary , thats why there are no people there . You cant get anything there anymore. Thats why noone plays it. Temporary

You could’ve at least picked something other then the one place where the LS story events where not temporary because sorry to break it to you in this case all the events (the crazed karka, the karka queen meta event etcc.) are still in there. The only thing that was temporary in that release was the Canach/Null instance and somehow I doubt thats why no one goes there any longer.

Vetrie.7804:

Here is my opinion.

If there is temporary content every 2 weeks, how much endgame will this game have?
If you can play every countent for few days/weeks and than its over that means you only get +1 endgame thing to do every 2 weeks. And if you miss like 3 living stories. AGAIN you have only 1 living story you can do, instead of having all 4 and endgame content is much higher now… I am afraid that Anet wants players to spend real money to get things.

I startted playing again few days ago and getting bored fast. No new content at all. I missed 2 living stories, cant do them now. Really whats the point of doing temorary content and than delete it.

Overall game was awesome in leveling stage. But I think this game has worst endgame than MMO can have.

So please Anet, if you really care about players ( like you always say ) make some major changes to endgame.

That would be true if temporary stuff would be all we are getting. But even now, that is before Arenanet commited themselves to a bigger permanent to temporary content ratio we were also getting permanent content nearly every update. Always something every 2 updates.

Also since when having 1 new thing to do every 2 weeks a bad thing? You missed 3 living stories fine, that didnt mean you didnt have anything to do now that you logged back in because any time you log in there will be something new for you to do. If this was your typical expansion based MMO then logging in now would like have you find absolutely nothing new to do because the expansion would be still being worked on. Like wise there is long term stuff here Anet are working on as well. That too will I am sure remain permanently once released.

The sad thing is its seems the more stuff Arenanet release the more people expect. You claim there is nothing new to do. Even forgetting the current temporary content in this release (which isnt exactly no new content) you still have all this permanent content that was released in the past 2 Living Stores that you missed: Guild missions WvW progression, Custom Arenas, a new Meta event, a bunch of new dynamic events. a new jumping puzzle. 2 new mini games, a new PVP map. seriously how is this no new content?

You know, a lot of the issues mentioned here, Grind, LS taking away the fun etc.. all boils down to actual player choices.

If a player makes the game about the reward…. I have 16 achievements that I need to quickly finish in order to get my quartz node. That player is going to be done in a couple of days and take all the fun out of it. Thats not the game shedding away its fun, thats the person in question taking the game like a job. On the other hand if you use achievements as guidelines rather then tasks the story will change dramatically. Okey I feel like a jumping puzzle which one do I do ? ohh there is an achievement for one of these this month so I will do some of them. I feel like doing Dynamic events today, ohh look While doing that I Can open baskets and there is an achievement for that. I have to explore this new zone, while doing that I can get these sky crystals etc.. you’ll get a completely different experiance.

Same thing with grinding. Grinding isnt simply doing a task more then once. Grinding is repeating a task you hate for a long time. Now granted dungeon sets grinding is unfortunately a bit hard to avoid cause if you dont like dungeons you have no other options to get them but lets not forget the game still tries its best to avoid having you grind there by making sets you get outside dungeons have the same stats. Its not ideal if you like the looks of one dungeon set above everything else but what else can the game do? Make it so a single run gets you an item? then 6-8 runs and you’re done. What content will people who like to run dungeons have to do then? Its a double edge sword.

Avoiding grinding is up to you. No one can ever make an MMO that has 0 grind. Every MMO has to have some repeatable content else people will get bored with having nothing to do. What developers can do and what GW2 does very well is giving you the tools to avoid Grind. Take legendary weapons for example. They require massive effort and are what people use to claim GW2 is just one big grind. Can you get a legendary weapon without grinding a single bit? Sure… Because if you look at what you need for a legendary you’ll find there is stuff you get playing every single type of content Gw2 has to offer. So Why not play what you feel like playing? Today I feel like doing Dynamic Events in Sparkfly. Great playing there can get me what i need for the gift of wood, the gift of metal, the gift of exploration as well as karma and gold that will both be very useful for my legendary.

Today I feel like Dungeons, Today I feel like WvW, Today I feel like exploring? they all give you stuff you need for your legendary and you dont have to do anything other then play the game just like you did from level 1 – 80 and enjoyed yourself doing.

Its entirely up to the player. If you look at a legendary and think, so I need 250 vicious claws for my gift of might so I need and kill 1000s of mobs until I get all my 250 vicious claws and do nothing else then yeah the game is going to feel extremely grindy. But If I do what I enjoy doing and use the requirements as just directions. I can enjoy the game and still get what I need. It will take longer sure but why is that a problem?

Raine.1394:

I know you are a lover of the English language so I’ll give the first definition of PROMISE from merriam-webster.com:

a : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

If they say they are going to do something or not do something they have declared it. But if you are still in doubt, let me give you the first definition of DECLARE.

1: to make known formally, officially, or explicitly

Is the manifesto a legally binding contract that can never change? No, but it is a declaration of what they will do and what they will refrain from doing. And, that’s how it reads. The manifesto and associated marketing documents contain promises. What is my authority for believing so? A conventional understanding of the English language. Heck, if I tell you I will meet you for lunch, I consider that a promise. And, if I have to break it, I’ll call in advance and renegotiate a time.

I don’t know, we may have differing understandings of promise. I rely on the plain meaning that we hold conventionally.

You do realise that this is probably the main reason why we have to remain in the dark for so long about what they plan to do with the game? It just unfair to hold them to every word spoken without giving them a bit of leeway to course correct if in the future they’d see their original idea wasnt the right way to go.

I think people just expect too much.

Example, what is a manifesto? A manifesto is a declaration of intent. Its not promises, its what you believe and what you’re planning to achieve. To make matters worst the implementation you make can be subjective. Example probably the biggest thing that gets criticized about the manifesto is Ree Soesbee’s famous statement “You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, who then remember you.”

People say Arenanet clearly Lied there. The village doesnt stay rescued 15 minutes later its invaded again. But did they? I personally dont think they lied and I will explain why.

Remember this is a manifesto a declaration of what you intend to do that is what you intend to do differently from everyone else.

Rescuing villages is not something thats only done in Gw2, you get such quests in many other MMOs. Whats the difference between the two? Again looking at the manifesto as a whole its easy to see what the intention is. They want change, visual change, an evolving world. In your typical MMO saving the village is nearly always, Creature / faction X is threatening us go thin their numbers. By the end of the quest you’ll be thanked for saving the village but apart from that how is that change represented? it just isnt the herd you “thinned” has already re-spawned so in actual fact if thinning the herd is what would save the village the village was saved for only 5 seconds (until what you killed re-spawned). In Gw2 once you save a village, what ever was threatening it will retreat. You can clearly see the difference between the village under assault and the village saved. It stays rescued it doesn’t reset immediately like other MMOs do. It is also true villagers will remember you rescued them. If you take part in a village defense and talk to npcs they will thank you for rescuing them. It doesnt stay rescued forever of course, It will eventually reset and the invasion will happen again but they never implied forever. Stay whatever doesnt imply that whatever will persist forever.

If I dont eat, I will die, If I eat I will stay alive. That doesnt mean If I eat I will become immortal.

Yet time and time again people point at that statement as proof that Arenanet lied in their manifesto.

What I am trying to say with this example is it is really dangerous to judge these things. using this as an example again I have no doubt people pointing at the above statement were disappointed because thats something that didnt meet their expectations, but that alone doesnt make it a lie. We knew dynamic events would be cyclic even before the manifesto was released. Proof this interview dated may 2010 (manifesto was released aug 2010):
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/4235/Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic-Events-Interview.html

“It’s important to clarify that the event system is cyclical in nature. Events will occur again in the game world”

So here we have a situation of something that didnt live up to people’s expectations fine but it was not neither a lie nor a broken promise.

yet now that false assumption is being used as a basis to doubt whatever Arenanet claim because they lied / broken promises before even when they really didnt? I honestly think thats very wrong.

lilstev.3498:

There is still so much of the map undiscovered! Anet has a ton of room to play with on the map, and as others have said, I bet they’re working on larger content releases, while puttin out theses smaller like the recent bazaar. I really am looking forward to see how this LS is gonna play out. I mean we still get Aetherblades still attacking during the bazaar, so it’ll be really interesting.

Also does this LS go off a book or some type of publication, or are they just making stuff up as we go?

Not just that but the refugees from flame and frost build the expansion in southsun in the follow LS and then after they left there (IE right now, they moved to cragstead and they’re rebuilding there)

I love how even though these LS are seperate contained events, elements from each move from one to the other. If you miss the previous event you can catchup no problem but if you do them all you can see this tapestry weaving in the background which is great imho.

Tachenon.5270:

…

Actually a lot of what I did is close to what you did my only difference is I spend a lot more time in the race, I find it addictive. Even manage to get first place.

Anyhow nothing wrong with stopping before doing all the content, in fact it would be good if otherscould walk away from stuff before it gets boring for them too. The only thing I would be a bit against is to claim there is just 5 days of content in the update because of a conscious decision to stop before doing it all. That wouldnt be accurate.

Like you I am not much into dungeons or pvp and I spend my time in the open world as well. The world is huge and there is a lot of events. 800 hrs in and there are zones I havent even played yet. Then there alts to level up. Is it that bad to play other older content for 7,8 days between LS releases?

The Living Story is nothing more then a content delivery system. IF they dont do an expansion it doesnt mean they’re not going to do the content you’d find in the expansion , it means it will not be packaged in a box for you to buy. Instead if they decide to say go with the Palawa Joko storyline for example. They’ll work on that using the long term teams (the living story are teams are used for shorter storylines) when they’ll get it nearly complete they’ll have the LS team do a tie in story. Say mummies will invade the charr lands and we’ll get some Living story about defending the area. Then they’ll release say 2 zones into the crystal dessert were we go to investigate whats going on. 2 weeks later we might get another 2 zones as we try to dive deeper in Palawa Joko domain. 2 weeks after that we might get another 2 zones were we consolidate our forces so that 2 weeks later we get to storm the bone palace.

This is all fictitious of course we have no idea how it will work. What we know is they’ll still work on long term content you’d find in an expansion it just they’ll release that gradually thought the living story rather then all at once through an expansion.

If done right it could work even better giving better context to everything.

Devata.6589:

…

At the end of the day its a balance. Urgency will undoubtitly get them some extra sales. You make very good points like people who dont have enough gold and people afraid that not getting that thing will result in them regretting in the future. You’re absolutely right that will generate extra sales due to urgency. But I do think it will result in lost sales too. New players, players who spent as much as they’re willing to spend in a month, players who start a new alt in the future etc.. The question is will they earn more or less. I have a feeling the answer is less because of player turnover and because as time goes buy more and more players will start alts.

Achievements are tricky. I do have a bit of completionists blood and I did miss a few as well. They bug me a bit I agree but on the other hand they also help achievements feel like achievements. I am also the kind of person who wants achievements to mean something which is why I dont use guides. I know I can get them done in a fraction of the time if I do but what would the point be? Like it took me days to get all the 40 sky crystals and I am not even happy with that cause I want to get all of them not just the minimum to get the achievement. I do plan to go hunt for the remaining ones when I complete the rest. But back on subject this is a bit like Dungeons when you could grave rush. People felt they could never loose because they’d just keep grave rushing. I mean People would die 20+ times and still feel they won the dungeon. To me dieing so many times certainly doesnt feel like a success but it got so bad that Anet felt they needed to disable graveyard rush. Simply speaking the possibility of failure makes success meaningful and I do think that applies to achievements. If I had all the time in the world to complete each of the living story event there would simply remain no challenge. Its like the clock tower and Wintersday jumping puzzle. What made them so challenging is that you couldnt stop and study your next jump, you need to keep going straining your reactions. Time adds a difficulty element that means that yes sometimes you’ll fail and you will miss achievements. Why should that be reason to quit or loose interest in the rest?

Yes going on holiday is a bit of a bummer related to achievements, I totally agree there. Its kinda a necessary evil I guess in a way.

As for training for achievements, I do see your point and you’re right. From a personal point of view it will still be an achievement, in a way perhaps more so. I mean lets assume the clock tower remained in game, if you had to repeat that thing for 8 months before you got it, when you do it will feel like a monumentous achievement. But how will other people feel? how much value will titles have? There is a bit of group aspect to achievements too. If you could take all the time in the world to get an achievement I am afraid it will loose its prestige if you know what I mean.

hehe of course we cant all have the same views on everything. I really appreciate the fact you explain your views in great detail. We might not agree on somethings but I fully respect your opinions. We just subscribe to different philosophies I guess. nothing wrong with that

Kaaboose.3897:

Simple. I can CHOOSE what content I want to do. And even if I couldn’t because for some reason it was manditory, If I really wanted to I could make the time to catch up if I had the time to spare at the point in my life.

Well good news there is old stuff that seems to be coming back as I pointed out in my other post. If thats done correctly it should make both camps happy to a degree at least. Will see what comes out of it.

Edenwolf.6328:

I’m harmed, I mean I come back after a few months break, and I can’t even buy or work for the Sclerite Karka Shell. I want it bad, I’m quite disappointed and certainly not excited to wait around till next year, or perhaps never to get it :S

You’re disappointed sure but not harmed. You’re perfectly fine without the karka shell. It might be a good idea to keep an eye on whats going on while on break from the game.

Tachenon.5270:

Krosslite.1950:

Tachenon.5270:

They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content)

Hmmmm… This statement makes no sense. “fewer things to do” does not equate to temporary content.
Fewer things to do means not much content. We can look it up in the dictionary if you like.

Actually new content every two weeks be it temporary or permanent is MORE content. Means people have a lot to do.

How long does it take you to work through these living story installments? Does it take you a week? Two weeks? A month? How long? What do you do when you’re finished with the new temporary content? Do you keep doing it over and over? Do you just stop playing until the next batch of content comes along? Do you go back and do old content?

If, by some miracle, you go back and do old content while you’re waiting for new content, wouldn’t it be nice to have more old content to choose from, while you’re waiting for that new content?

honestly the whole two weeks and I rarely finish it all. I play every day about 2-5hrs each time and a collective 10 – 12 hrs in the weekend. about 4 hrs of that is spent on guild missions though and sometimes I take a break from the living story too and level one of my alts. The bulk of the time 90% of it is spend on it though.

Sure it would be nice to have more old content to choose from but if you’re saying you finish everything in less then the two weeks its meant for wouldnt you have already completed the old content anyway?

Vayne.8563:

For those who say people are going to leave the game…it means zero. Nothing.

Well zero is probably a bit harsh, I am sure Arenanet dont want to loose people as much as possible but that being said you do have a point that Arenanet also know some people leaving the game is inevitable and by stating you’re just good as gone you’re just gonna weaken your argument as you’re essentially saying this game does not serve my playstyle which in turn will result in developers focusing more to strengthen the content thats retaining players which is probably at the other end of the spectrum.

Simple speaking I quit threads harm more then they help. I hope no one feels by threating to quit they’re gonna blackmail game designer into doing what those people want from the game. It wouldnt even be physically possible even if it did work because it will take months to develop something new by which time either the player was serious and would have long quit or they were bluffing which would be pointless anyway.

Vayne.8563:

You can say the game hasn’t changed, but what you’re really saying is there hasn’t been a permanent DUNGEON.

Vayne makes a very good point here. You have to understand that not everyone likes the same things. You might find it hard to understand why people love this stuff but some do. I am not saying the game should go in the direction I like, I am not a big dungeon fan but I would certainly not mind nor complain if they added new permanent dungeons. I am not a pvp fan but I dont mind new sPvP Maps. Like wise those would like more permanent stuff have to accept the game is not about people who like that sort of thing its also about other types of content that people enjoy.

Let me tell you how I got hooked on gw1. When it launched unfortunately my friends and many reviews I’ve read said that gw1 wasnt a real mmo. That it was just a pvp game with some cheap PvE and thats mostly because everyone was instanced outside the maps making it feel nothing more then a multiplayer game at best. Unfortunately I let that propaganda effect me (which in part is why I know passionate in a way to try to avoid misinformation). One time I was bored, this was a couple of years in i think and I had seen an advert probably for one of the expansion, cant remember and I decided to give the trail a go. It was something like 14 days but a maximum of 10 hrs. I played for a couple of hours didnt stand out and couldnt help but the think that reviews and people’s opinions were right, the game was a gimmick with it being instanced and all and left it there for nearly the whole 2 weeks. Then just on the day it was going to expire I thought well lets play it one last time. And I got to a quest. A guy told me about he had to pick these spider eggs and how he wasnt strong enough to do it himself. Great I thought another one of those go do the work while I stand here relaxing. But then something entirely unexpected happened. The NPC didnt stay there relaxing in the sun, he didnt want me to pick up the eggs for him. He wanted me to watch his back and I watched in amazement as for the first time in an MMO (up till then) an NPC actually did something. When the quest concluded I went straight to buy the game and then all the expansions and the bonus mission pack. And glad I was because the instancing that people complained about for me turned out to be genius. NPCs could engage in the story, the game felt alive. Things happened, NPCs faught and died. The world changed if only while you were in that instance. That was what I had been waiting for all along and I nearly missed it all only because people said instanced made it feel fake.

The living story is that feeling taken to the next level. Change is still happening, the NPCs are still getting involved in whats happening. But now things dont reset the moment you leave the instance. More then that Things keep building on each other. That to me is just beautiful. People defending this arent defending it simply because we believe Arenanet can do no wrong. I personally spoke against ascended armor cause well that was content that felt dangerous to my vision of the game. But this, I defend this because I really think its great and I dont think it can have the same impact on the world if it was permanent. I am sure Arenanet are skilled enough to make sure the permanent stuff they’ll do along the temporary will make logical sense and so I am fine with the greater mix of permanent content to the temporary but I still believe some temporary content is essential to keep this high quality change going.

Hope that explains my view on this somewhat.

Harbard.5738:

This whole thing is build around the idea that people don’t want to miss out on it.

Is it gonna take 10+ pages for people realize that was their (very lame and pushy) strategy?

Also, how many more statements from Colin is it gonna take so people realize they are gonna make more permanent content? Probably if he had said “ALL content is gonna be permanent” could make people settle down but c’mon: WWII analogies? lol. This is way overdebated.

They have already acknowledged all temp content is a bad idea! Let’s just see how they’re gonna act on it…

well in defense of the wwii analogies which I am guilty off, its not merely an analogy but more a study of change. That wasnt use to justify / debunk the need for permanent / temporary content but more off to explain the change we got while subtle is what you’re really expect would happen because changes are rarely visual and more conceptual so to speak.

Devata.6589:

The attackers lost the war but still all the dead people did not come back to life so it changed the word in a big big big way. Till this day Germany is not allowed to have an army. Because many people died they did not get kids but the person who they would else have had kids with might have kids with somebody else, who else would have kids with somebody else and so on… If there would not have been a war the world would be totally differed today. We most likely would not have goon to the moon yet and satellites might still not exist or where just new meaning mobile phones where not yet as advanced. I can basically go on for hours as all the possible difference are infinite and while we don’t know the exact number of changes we know it’s a lot.

The only thing that really is gone is the event itself. There was a war and thats over.

Thats exactly why I said I don’t mind if the events them-self are temporary.. I still would say make it possible to look back at it (Like history books / video’s) but link achivements, items, rewards and so to the content that stays. There is no problem in doing that (except for the fact that is does not fit the marketing plan.. thats why I simultaneously say, change you marketing plan by focusing on expansions in stead of on the gem-store).

Sure you’re right but all that stuff isnt visual and people here are arguing that nothign change simply based on the fact that not much of it was visual but like you explain a lot really happens in the background it just you dont see all of that change at all!
Looking at Flame and frost through the same lens you used. If the motlen alliance hadn’t attacked the refugees wouldnt have existed, thus they wouldnt have gone to southsun. The villages wouldnt have been built there, canach wouldnt have insighted the karka, the karka queen wouldnt have come out. Cragstead wouldnt be destroyed thus it wouldnt be rebuilding right now and we wouldnt be seeing the remains of the refugee camps.

Devata.6589:

You are defending regular updates here, not temporary content. And believe it or not but people will even get bored of being pressured in doing something every 2 weeks. Make it non-temporary and the pressure is there but the “there is something ‘new’ to do” is still there.

But then again.. the whole idea is to create the pressure because they want people to be online and buy gems, and it will work for some time.. until people get bored of being pressured into doing stuff or after completionist have missed to much or after new players get frustrated because the whole time they ask somebody “nice weapon / mini / armor, where did you get that?” the answer is “From some event last year, but you can’t get that anymore”.

They go hand in hand together. You’re calling these 2 week events as something that causes pressure cause there is not enough time to complete them, how is keeping them in game permanently going to solve the problem? If anything it will make it worst because if you’re not keeping up, keeping it in game is just going to increase the stuff you need to do and making it impossible to ever catch up.

If we get 20 hrs of content every 2 weeks and you can only play 15 of it, if its temporary next 2 weeks you’ll still have just 20 hrs to complete. in 1 years you’ll still have just 20 hrs of content to completed. if it was let in permanently next month you’ll have 25hrs to complete. in 1 year you’ll have 150hrs to complete in that 2 weeks period. How is that reducing pressure?

Devata.6589:

This whole thing is build around the idea that people don’t want to miss out on it. So it’s not just about “I don’t like it so I don’t do it” but it’s about.. I maybe like the content maybe not but if I do not do it now I miss out on it being the event, the rewards, the dungeons and if I was not here I did miss out on something I would have liked.

So your argument is invalid. It’s not like there is something in the game people don’t like. There was something they liked but Anet took it out again. + in a way people get pressured in doing it.

The sad thing is that Anet already did this with the daily’s when introducing the Laurels and they got a lot of complains about that but in stead of doing something with those complains they do the same trick on a much lager scale.

You see a laurel is also like temporary content.. that one laurel you can only get today.. tomorrow you can get another one but if you missed out on today’s one you will not get anymore.. And that works in a annoying way where people sort of get pressured to do the daily but for how long.. At some point people will start losing interest while the bad feeling of being pressured is still there.

I do understand the marketing technique behind it and it works but only in the short run. And the more of those pressure moments you make the faster it will work out. Some how most financial people only look at the short term what is fine in the short term but will be bad in the long term.

What you mention is entirely perception. How is this content build around “the idea that people don’t want to miss out on it” ? If I miss the entire flame and frost Storyline how am I in any way at a disadvantage? The worst that will happen is I play secrets of southsun, see all those refugees and I have no idea where they come from. BUT If I actually spend the time to talk to them they’ll explain what happened to them and while it will not be as detailed as if I was there I will still get an idea what happened. This content is in no way content that you can miss out,its content thakittens safe to miss out all you’ll miss is a couple of skins nothing else.

Yes laurels is another perfect example of how people’s perception works against them. Laurels are given as a reward for completing a daily. So if you miss a day you’re not loosing a laurel permanently you’re just not earning that laurel nothing else. The same thing happens with every dynamic event in the game. If I dont do a dynamic event I missed the reward it offers, why is that wrong / unfair? How is that any different then completing the daily? just cause the daily is locked to one reward per day it doesnt mystically turn it into something that you just cant miss. Laurels like anything is a currency. Currency is nothing more then virtual value for something. Currency is used so that people dont trade stuff directly so you dont run into a problem of how many chickens do I need to give you for that car? But ultimately thats what you’re doing. If a chicken is worth 5 euro and a car is worth 50k euro then that car is worth 10k chickens. Same here. If a piece of ascended armor is worth 35 laurels it just means that armor is worth 35 dailies, or 25 dailies and a monthly. No matter how many days / monthlies you miss you still need to complete 25 dailies and a monthly or 35 dailies just like everyone else. So if you miss a daily you didnt miss a laurel you just didnt do that daily hence you dont have the currency that represents it, ie the laurel. This whole argument If I dont do the daily that laurel is lost for ever is nothing more then players perception that I have to have my shiny as soon as possible working against them nothing else.

You want to know what not playing results in loosing out really looks like? play neverwinter. They too have a currency you get when you login every day. Only if you miss one day you dont miss out on the currency you’d get that day, you’d also loose what you acquired before. (to be fair you can only get 7 of this currency then you have to spend it or you’ll not get any more but still thats loss… not earning anything today is no a loss, its just not earning anything today)

Kaaboose.3897:

BUT WHY MAKE IT TEMPORARY! Every second post here is “We’re getting new stuff every 2 weeks!” So what? It doesn’t matter if we’re getting it every 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 10 weeks or whatever, what matters is that it will be gone soon and you won’t get to experiance it if you don’t play in the timeframe Anet allocates.
Yes, we’ve been told SOME of this content will be permenent but we have not been told what or how much.
This is especially concerning when both Anet and various posters in this thread harp on how lots of permenent content has already been added since realese.
We must have VERY different opionions of ‘lots.’ Or “Content” for that matter.
Compare the first year of WoW to the first year of GW2 in terms of temporary vs. permenent. (You can see it done here: http://youtu.be/NedWPHZCcik?t=1m26s) The stuff added there was meaninful to new and old players alike.
Even WoW had some temporary content in the first year! And it was a nice touch but it was most certinly not a focus.
Remember the thread title “Too Much Temporary Content Can Only Harm GW2.” A few temporary NPC’s and/or events that are relevent to the current state of the LS I would be just fine with. But adding and remvoing game modes/dungeons/storys and zones just for the sake of immersion is going too farm IMO.

Sure lets compare permanent content in both games in the first 10 months. WoW had what? 2x 5 man dungeons, 1x 40 man raid and 2 battle grounds. In Gw2 we had about a lot of guild missions, 9x fractals, 3x sPvP maps 1x new zone, about 50 new dynamic events, 3 new jumping puzzles, the new dailies, Custom Arenas, Costume Brawl, 1x meta event, the skritt burglar thing.

I think the 9 fractals easily match up to the 2 dungeons. All the guild missions probably match up to the 40 man raid (in terms of content size at least) and 3 spvp maps exceed the 2 battle grounds. That leaves gw2 with 50 dynamic events 3 jumping puzzles, 1 new zone, the new dailies, the custom arenas, costume brawl, a meta event and that skritt burglar thing more permanent content in its first 10 months then WoW released. On top of that there was a ton of temporary content which while not permanent was still stuff one could engage in. I am sorry but there is no way to claim WoW players got more content then Gw2 players did in the first 10 months, permanent content or temporary content Gw2 wins hands down.

Yes we’ve been told more or less how much permanent to temporary content there is going to be.. Quoting Colin “we’ve heard folks feedback on this and will be doing a much larger mix of permanent, recurring (content that can occur again in the future)”. " There will still absolutely be some amount of temporary, in particular story-driven moments to help drive the narrative forward. You’ll also see some of the content previously noted as “temporary” return permanently to the game in the 2nd half of the year."

So going forward there will clearly be a bigger amount of permanent content and a small amount of temporary content to drive up narrative. I honestly cannot understand why people accuse Anet of not listening when time and time again they proof themselves flexible. Lets hope they dont become too flexible cause I still believe a lot of permanent content in a game like gw2 where old content doesnt expire is dangerous to grouping.

And btw note that even content that was temporary is coming back, thus what temporary content we got isnt really temporary after all. And this is not some far future. just read this interview: Beware spoilers on whats coming next
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/news/page/1/read/28065/Guild-Wars-2-Cutthroat-Politics-Coming-July-23rd-Details-Inside.html

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

I really want to ask all those who’re making fun of us who think LS really is immersive living story with actual changes in the world actually occuring as the story evolves. What would you change? Taking all the Living story we got so far, what would you change to create real change in the world? or at least what is real change to you?

There’s good change, and there’s bad change.

In City of Heroes, particularly in the latter days of the game, the devs started making dramatic ‘living story’ type changes to the landscape. The first such change, at least during my time there, was when the area known as Faultline was pretty much entirely revamped – permanently – as portions of it were rebuilt. There were new enemy groups, new missions, new terrain features. The layout of Atlas Park changed quite a bit as new things were added (and retained!). The various low level origin missions were eventually replaced by a more or less ‘one size fits all’ story arc. Galaxy City, one of the two low level zones, was – alas! – destroyed during an alien invasion. Permanently. The ruins of Galaxy City became the setting for new tutorial.

I hated it. Most of it. Not necessarily all. Faultline, I felt, was well done. It made sense. The zone started out in ruins and was slowly being rebuilt (I figure, eventually, Boomtown would have received similar treatment). The Atlas Park changes, for the most part, were okay – although I didn’t see why the old early level origin missions couldn’t remain along with the new early level missions. Dark Astoria, one of the creepiest zones ever designed, got some new content added (which, sadly, I didn’t get to experience).

Galaxy City, though – that sucked. We lost an entire zone. It wasn’t changed – there was no plan in place to reclaim and rebuild it – it was just gone. One might even say that, even though it had been there for years, it ultimately turned out to be… temporary content.

I especially hated losing the Outbreak tutorial zone. It had become something of a tradition for me to have my new hero characters pose with Flower Knight – the greatest hero in the game. I also enjoyed putting my new heroes through their paces, gathering up groups of the Contaminated to see how many my heroes could handle at once. Sure, thanks to the Flashback system in Ouroboros I could return to that area, and play that mission with Flower Knight – but I couldn’t do that with my brand new characters. It just wasn’t the same.

We haven’t really seen any big changes here yet. Nothing with any lasting ramifications. Certainly nothing on par with the changes that came to Paragon City. I hope, when and if these changes do come, you pro-change guys are not as bitterly disappointed as I was, when such change came to some of my favorite places in what was once my favorite MMO.

Anyway, I don’t remember what I started out to say here, so I’ll shut up now.

I didnt play city of heroes unfortunately so I got no idea about what you’re talking about from first hand experience, just from some research I just did. Talking about the faultline. from what I understand thats started out as a disaster area and one day over 2 years later they changed the map as if it was fixed or as if repairs started. Okey fair enough but isnt it a bit unrealistic that a disaster zone was left in ruins without help for years? In reality if you get a natural disaster or anything, help start right away no? How about permanent change? for the positive yes it makes sense but for the negative its not realistic. If some was to destroy town X the inhabitants wouldn’t just simply abandon it, they’re try to rebuild it.

It depends what you’re look for. I am more of a story type of guy. I dont want change for the sake of change, change should be in service of the story. Thats why I dont think change should ever be permanent. Change should be about revamping a zone it should be the result of events. So in my opinion after cragstead was razed to the ground by molten alliance it was a good choice to have it rebuilt slowly because thats what logically should happen and I am sorry but saying no change occurred because by the 5th LS release cragstead might be back to its former glory is wrong. Change shouldnt be something you always have to see the result off for ever. it should be something you experience as it happens and as things return to balance after its passing.

nethykins.7986:

Vayne.8563:

We new content coming out every 2 weeks MOST people will have stuff to do. The guys who can play 24/7..they’ll run out not matter what you do. So trying to appease them is next to pointless.

Some of them will come do the new stuff and leave until the next new stuff comes out. Some of them won’t.

But most people will have plenty to do with new content coming every 2 weeks.

Isn’t that pretty much who this is aimed at? Those who have already done all there is to do and are just waiting for more content to be added?

They have always “appeased” those types of players. That’s the exact reason why fractals/ascended items were rushed in.

Its aimed at everyone.

but it has to be balanced. if they increase the achievement by 10 the most hardcore of players will probably be busy all 2 weeks but casual will have no way of getting it. So its like somewhere in the middle.

I would like to chime in a bit on this living story doesnt change any thing because everything reverts back to almost square one.

Thats how change works.. change is only change while it happens. I’ve given this example a million times now but here we go again. How did world war 2 change the world? while it was going on A LOT, countries being conquered, people dieing, buildings destroyed. How did it change the world for the next few years after it ended? So and so. You could still see the distraction of course, families torn apart by the horrors of the war and countries still occupied. How did WW2 change the world today? the only change that probably remains is a few treaties if that. All the damage has been fixed, the countries that were previously occupied regained their independence and everything went back nearly to square one.

What Flame and Frost did was immersive change like it should be. While it was going you had the bulk of change going on. People fleeing, refugee camps being set up, Area devastation (the weather effects, the gysers, the storms) , the actual assault on the outposts etc… After it finished changes where smaller, refugee camps were still there, a solution was sought for the refugees, cragstead lied in ruins etc… and then we moved into the next living story that used the change from the first as fuel. Those refugees were moved to southsun, they build villages, houses and outposts etc… things didnt work out there and they wanted to move out. that LS played out and what happened next? the refugees didnt mysteriously vanish in tin air. no they now can be found in cragstead and they’re rebuilding the town you can see them rebuilding and I mean right now as in Today we’re essentially 2 living stories after the living story that created these refugees. They were not deleted once their story played out now the change continues evolving as time passes.

From start to where we stand right now there was a distinct progression of events where stuff happened and those actions while predetermined had consequences and repercussions. In all honesty if only they managed to have these events evolve based on player interaction they’ll have achieved perfection.

Just measure that up to any other MMO out there. Even to Gw1 if you want which is one of the few MMOs out there that has a world that at least changes a little bit. Cause lets not forget that in 99% of MMOs other there the only change you ever get is just a paragraph of text saying what supposedly changed even though around you not one pixel shifted position from where it was between when you started the game and finished it. Which game did change better and how?

I really want to ask all those who’re making fun of us who think LS really is immersive living story with actual changes in the world actually occuring as the story evolves. What would you change? Taking all the Living story we got so far, what would you change to create real change in the world? or at least what is real change to you?

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Too much content is scary to players. They need that choice taken away from them so they won’t be pressured into doing it.

Its not so much as scary, but overwhelming really. Actually I am curious how not more players agree here.

It’s simple.

People often leave games when they run out of things to do. They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content) than if there are more things to do (lots of permanent content).

Personally, I prefer games with ‘overwhelming’ amounts of content. Games with a wide variety of content – content that will be there when I’m ready to tackle it. I feel GW2 got off to a good start in this regard, a great start, even, but now this living story deal just isn’t providing the growth the game needs.

They’re adding new stuff every 2 weeks. How can you ever run out of stuff to do if you have new things to do every two weeks? Isnt no living story a lot worst? people claimed to have played everything by the end of the 2nd week of release. The 2nd week! they were wrong no doubt but thats how they felt. Proof posted on the 12th of september:
http://www.keenandgraev.com/2012/09/13/level-80-gw2-what-next

If you look you’ll find more.

If they keep this 2 weeks releases we’ll never going to end up with nothing to do. And permanent stuff is still being added with a promise that they’ll focus more on permanent then temporary stuff. Beyond this there is the long term stuff they’ve been working on. No doubt in my mind thats going to be permanent stuff as well.

This LS is merely them solving what was previously an unsolvable problem. How to provide enough content to keep people happy until we can release the next big thing.

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Imagine we’re in an alternative universe and imagine if this were gw1 at release. Imagine they did the living story over there. Every 2 weeks we get some temporary content akin to what we’re getting now but then after 1 year and a half we still get all the content of factions.

Now tell me if thats the case would the negativity regarding the temporary content be still justified?

Imagine it is 1886 and the Benz Patent-Motorwagen is equipped with square wheels.

sure no problem… but what does that have to do with what we’re saying?

A bad idea is a bad idea, regardless of when or where it’s implemented.

If anet had gone the ‘living story’ route with GW, we probably wouldn’t be here today talking about GW2.

So what you’re saying is if gw1 did all that it did exactly the same but added LS it would have failed? This is what I dont get about this kind of critisism. I can accept people not liking something, its fine, there are things I dont like too. But why not just ignore those things you dont like. If Gw1 did what it did but added LS to them. Ignoring that LS still gives you the same Gw1 you got. The same Gw1 you are very happy with. How is adding more stuff to a successful product suddenly make it a failure?

Reclaimer.9276:

I agree with the op. I did every “living story” so far and don’t really have an idea whats it all about. To me it just has nothing to do with the lore. In my opinion they should have started adding things like crystal desert, isles of janthir, other dragons … anything but this.

The other thing for me is this updates were really not entertaining, I forced myself to get the achivement points (coz thats my gaming mentality) and thats it. So all in all each update entertained me for a few hours and then things got boring again. The only one I enjoyed was the advanture box.
I think they would be better off adding something like gvg asap rather then wasting resources on the living story. Gvg entertained many in gw1 for years. It’s gona be a year from relese soon and nothing of note was added in my opinion at least.

If you have no idea whakittens all about you really didnt do it properly. I am not judging what you did or what you didnt do if you say you did it, I am sure you did what you though you had to do and I am going to assume that was finishing of the achievements. But there is more to the living story then the achievements. Cutscenes, interacting with documents in game in the various areas, talking to npcs and reading the mails sent by the various characters gives a clear picture of whats going on. Not telling you what to do, just what to look for if you’re really interested in knowing whats going on going forward.

nethykins.7986:

Galen Grey.4709:

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Imagine we’re in an alternative universe and imagine if this were gw1 at release. Imagine they did the living story over there. Every 2 weeks we get some temporary content akin to what we’re getting now but then after 1 year and a half we still get all the content of factions.

Now tell me if thats the case would the negativity regarding the temporary content be still justified?

Imagine it is 1886 and the Benz Patent-Motorwagen is equipped with square wheels.

sure no problem… but what does that have to do with what we’re saying? I am just trying to explain there is long term content coming (fact unless you believe we’ve been flat out lied to) that long term content is very likely to include new zones and new long term story. These living story chapters are just stuff for us to do while thats being developed. Hence my fictious scenario of what gw1 would look like if we had ls in between expansions.

Personally I would say that would make it perfect MMO. Or as close to perfection as one can get. Same with Gw2. Provided we get more meaningful / beefy content in the future (new zones / new storylines etc..) this living story would mean we’d have a high quality MMO with new stuff to do all the time. That has always been the holy grail of MMO. How many times have we heard its impossible to create more content then people consume. Well seems arenanet finally managed to proof that wrong.

I’m not too sure making that content time-locked makes it “more than people can consume”. Most of those who have a lot of time on their hands can complete the tasks set for them in a few days.
Think you’re placing them a little too high up on that pedestal.

Well lets put it this way. So far the major argument against temporary content has been its burning me out cause I cannot complete it in time. I dont doubt some hardcore players complete it in a few days and end up having nothing new to do the rest of the time. I also have no doubt a good number of those didnt really complete it just did the bare minimum to get the reward and stopped playing it. But that being said I have yet to hear anyone say the temporary content we’re getting every two weeks is just too little which I would assume means for the majority of the player base its just enough content for 2 weeks.

Kaaboose.3897:

I agree and understand on why being around other players is important and it IS, It’s a huge part of MMO’s and it’s exactly why I play them.
This is exactly why I was so excited by the manifesto: “We’ve taken everything you like about Guild Wars and put it in an MMO enviroment.”
It’s those moments when you are fighting a losing battle, when defeat is certain, then all of a sudden a stranger jumps in to assit you and together you topple that foe.
It when the gate of your fortress has just fallen, You’re ragtag crew of defenders pushed to the wall, fighting for their last moments of life when the renforcments smash into the rear of enmey lines.
And it’s also that moment when, against all odds, You run into someone you met previously in the most odd, remote, or unusally location and say "The hell are you doing here?
Yes, Other players are important in MMO’s BUT with the current way content is relased everyone is ONLY in the zones that are relevant to the current LS and in most cases this is only a handful of areas. The population is also, regularly, so much that you no longer feel like a group of people working towards a goal, but part of a hive mind.
Too many players is sometimes even worse then not enough.

http://www.shifteast.com/asia-trends/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/tokyo-summerland-packed-wave-pool.jpg

Honestly thats not going to change no matter what you do (well you could stop releasing new content but do we really want that?)

The majority of the players are going to gravitate towards the new content because who doesnt like a new shiny? The question remains where the smaller group no longer running after the shiny will be found. And the answer changes. The most stuff there is the more thinly spread it will be.

This is the same exact reason why we have money sinks. If you keep adding and adding without removing the whole system will collapse. The same thing applies to content. If you’ve go 1 million players and 1 million things to do there is a good chance you’ll be doing the whole game solo.