Guild Wars 2

Ricky.4706:

not if no one knows about it or recognizes it.

value is subjective and based on perception. they could do 8million updates, but if they call it gw2.0 …it’s considered an old software …..despite the fact that it’s highly maintained software with an ‘old’ name.

fiat money doesn’t exist, but people kill for a piece of paper that they value called cash. but it’s really just paper.

like whats the difference between something old, and a collectors antique ….perception…nothing else.

And thats excatly the core issue here.

Taken individually LS updates seem small, taking them as a whole they’re quite large. Taking them as filler content in between expansions they’re actually gurguantian but alas first impressions is what usually people recall.

I agree with you the biggest Issue Anet have to fight is perception.

Ricky.4706:

and this is what makes it evident, that this isn’t a price issue, it’s a trust issue.
maybe trust is lacking from new players, because they don’t know anet, and trust is being lost from vet players because they know anet ? lol – or rather, are familiar with the update pattern they’ve used in the past.

Which is ironic cause they released about 42 updates while we waited for the expansion. Does that put them on top of the industry?

usernameisapain.7163:

It makes as much sense to compare the expansion to a WoW expansion as it does to compare it to f2p game expansions. Some of which have been quite impressive, all for free, many games provide free content, dlc whatnot. Hell Take L2, which has made fairly big expansions and update for no charge at all. Just because one game made an overprice expansion, and another does too, doesn’t mean that it’s okay
(=)_(=)
I’m certainly not expecting it for free, because that is has never been A-nets business model. However justifying the price because WoW or other games have a p2p model doesn’t make sense, as that is unrelated to the expansion in question.

There is no information released so far that justifies 50$. The argument, that I can use it for however long, is also fairly invalid, because by that logic the game should costs 1000$ or 2000$. An argument like that is never ending no matter the price.

And as far as the production costs for 1 map in gw2 comparable to a map in gw being more, possibly. But that argument lacks the information that gw2 runs on a-nets own engine, and technology have progressed ! therefore anything is cheaper to produce today, not to mention gw maps are hubs included as those were interchangeable. Either way that argument isn’t that simple either.

Looking at the discussion in this thread it is quite clear that no one convinces anyone. So last comment here for me

You’re missing the point, its not about comparing expansions to each other, its about comparing the costs of playing the game. Yes plenty of F2P MMOs give out expansions for free but like Gw2 those games need to make money so they use other methods to make sure people pay and they do that by providing agressive cash shops. The point I was making is that looking at the expansion alone isnt enough. You need to factor other costs especially costs that arent really that optional and see how much you need to pay per year to enjoy the game.

Like I said, I never justified the price because WoW sold the expansion for the same price. I justified the price because $50 every 2 – 3 years means $17-$25 a year which at least to me seems more then reasonable.

I do agree with there not being enough information to justify $50 though. We simply dont know enough, no contest there.

That Gw2 uses the same Gw1 engine and is thus cheaper is wrong. Anet didnt pay for the guild wars engine, they developed it themselves hence the costs associated with production have always been labor costs. Anet at the time of Gw1 had 1/2 the employees it had at the time of Gw2 at launch and a 1/3 of the employees it has now. Ergo their costs were twice as much at launch and are 3 times as much now. Thats assuming no wage increases since the time of Gw1 which obviously isnt the case either so actually their costs are even higher then that.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Vayne.8563:

So the value of Guild Wars 2 is only the value of the box. Fractals don’t add to the value. They weren’t there at launch. Guild missions don’t add to the value. Three new zones don’t add to the value.

They didn’t add value when I bought GW2, because they didn’t exist. I bought GW2 because of what it contained.

It is the same for HOT.

But they did and did so directly. Gw2 would have been a lot less enjoyable for me had there been no updates beyond what was in the box. You didnt know about it, you didnt factor them in their decision because like you said it didnt exist but that doesnt mean it didnt make your purchase more valuable.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Erukk.1408:

So, I’m guessing we’re writing off all the additional content they are going to add to HoT over time via LS for the comparison?

The Living Story is meant to be free. We are not supposed to be paying for that.

It is free but that doesnt mean it doesnt need to be financed. At the end of the day this is an MMO which by its nature has on going costs. That costs is covered by both box sales and gem sales. If its not covered and considering there are investors in the mix, being covered means the investors are making enough money to be happy financing a team that you dont traditionally find in other MMOs.

The Thing is what we have here is a balance between cost and features. On that premise I would definitely include the living story in the price of the expansion because at the end of the day even if the expansion is as big as the core game (and i dont think it is by any stretch of the imagination) it will not have enough content to keep me busy another 2 – 3 years. Throwing the Living story in the mix then yeah most certainly.

So If I had to choose between paying 40 for an expansion and no living story or 50 for an expansion and living story that for me wouldnt be a choice at all. 10 is more then justified. Now as you said the LS isnt being directly financed by the Expansion so maybe it will sell well enough for NCSoft ot be happy and keep it going even if the expansion sells for 40. $10 isnt a big deal enough to justify that risk in my opinion.

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

It’s cute when people think that business is like kids playing in the park. Those numbers come from NCSoft’s quarterly reports, which list GW2’s earnings (rather obviously in full, not only the sales of the game itself). Given how NCSoft is a publicly traded company, they can’t hide their numbers; and it’s very much laughable to think that they would hide their profits, anyway, when showing results to their investors.

GW2’s earnings are just that. It’s already taking in consideration gem sales, game sales and everything else you would like to mention. Yes, the game is earning less than a MMORPG released in 1998. No, there is no way to call it other than a failure. And you can go see by yourself, the numbers are freely available.

What you do not realize is that sales from China do not hit NCSOFT directly. From what I read, the Chinese company is doing all of the sales and NCSOFT gets royalties. Royalties are not reported as sales or at least not for GW2. They’re likely reported as other income or something of the like. You’d notice that GW2 sales didn’t increase at all when it was released in China which leads you to believe that it’s not part of the GW2 sales. I suggest that rather than blindly posting graphs and articles, you look into what they mean.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2enwcc/kdb_daewoo_securities_current_forecast_for_ncsoft/

This is correct

Its not easy to publish a game in china due to a lot of regulations so what happens is you partner with a chinese company, they do the publishing for you and you get royalties in return. Gw2 income from china is not under sales because NCSoft doesnt sell Gw2 in China, KongZhong does. What NCsoft get is royalty revenue.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen, I can’t really disagree with anything you just said. And I think that means we’re kind of in agreement, and understand each other. Not on whether HOT is worth the price tag, but in agreement on the current situation, the lack of information, and the leap of faith aspect of it all.

I would definitely not disagree with anyone complaining about lack of information. I may have been comfortable to pre-purchase just because of my experiance with Anet but I would definitely not expect everyone to follow suit. Anything above an impulse buy and $50 is definitely not an impulse buy requires enough information so that people can make an informed decision and we’re definitely not there yet. So yes totally in agreement with you there.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It started out really innocent, but has slowly but surely been growing into an ugly beast. And it is going to keep doing that, unless we as customers send a clear message. This pre-purchasing concept is a bad deal for consumers. And the only way we’re going to stop it, is by saying no.

These kind of moves are pretty dangerous in my opinion. I mean you have a noble idea, safeguarding players but actions have consquences. If people say hold off because pre-purchase is a bad deal and NCSoft takes that as a sign that hey interest in Gw2 has waned and forces Anet to fire X amount of employees in the end who really benefits from that? What if that causes a worst quarter then projected for NCSoft which results in management reshuffle and the new management decides to be more agressive with their monitization? Obviously I am not suggesting we throw free money at Anet just in case but I have no problem pre-purchasing something I know I am going to purchase anyway. Others may feel the same, is that really a problem? Its not like if you dont pre-purchase will result in you being penalized in anyway after all (you in general)

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There are plenty of people who would pay $60, $70 or even $100 bucks for half an expansion, packed with Living Story left overs, because they think the expansion is worth it. That does not put them in the right. What little we know of HOT does not validate the current price tag. It just doesn’t. And by paying it anyway, consumers are contributing to the problem of overinflated expansion pricing.

every purchase is a leap of faith, there is never going to be a complete breakdown of every single thing present in the expansion like there wasnt in the full game. You dont go see a movie sure that movie you’re about to watch is worth the price. You know the director/writers/actors previous work and that helps you make an informed decision. Same here. Yes for someone who knows nothing about anet or who wasnt very satisified with what they did till now you’re absolutely right. What we know so far isnt enough to justify the price. For those of us who did love what they did, the living story, the content direction and all that we dont need much for us to leap. We may end up falling and breaking every bone, thats the nature of leaping after all but then there will be repurcussions next release. At the end of the day good will may win you some leaway and there is nothing wrong with that. Abusing that good will always has consiquences after all and unless Anet plan to close the day after they release HoT its not in their best interest to sell a tiny update for a big price. They may paritcially get away it now but they will not next time.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I have yet to pay a single dime for DDO. I’ve bought all expansions by simply playing the game and earning DDO points, and one expansion was gifted to me. So they seem pretty fair to me.

But even if you think Turbine is also greedy, so what? Does that make it right?

wait a sec, so in Gw2 you completely dismiss statements that you can buy the extra character slot with in game money because and I quote “This means that the game allows you to work, in order to earn a digital currency that has a certain dollar value in-game (not outside of it).
So you are paying for it. You are just paying for it with a digital currency instead of real dollars. That doesn’t mean you are getting the character slot for free.” but the same doesnt apply to Turbine?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I was referring to the fact that we buy a product that will have to be patched shortly after release. This has been the case for the core game, and also for Nightfall and Eye of the North. In the case of GW2, a large chunk of the dynamic quests, and nearly all of the traits and skills were bugged. This will be the case for HOT as well. We don’t pay for a perfectly polished product. We pay for a rough product, and are even given the option to pay for testing it for them.

Thats true for any MMO. Which game released 0 patches because it was perfect? MMOs are complex products and no ammount of testing can cover every single base. Some issues dont even happen until a lot of players are put in the mix.

Lets not kid ourself, the pay to test is simply an excuse. People who pay for early access pay in order to get to play as early as possible and thats true for any game. Just look at all the posts for any game out there. They all trash their games for the issues they dont provide bug reports.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Like I said, don’t have a link. Just remember it being mentioned in an interview. People just blindly assume that he has to be in the expansion, and for many this is a reason to buy the expansion. I think it is about time Anet spoke up about it.

Its not about stating he is definitely going to be in the expansion, Anet simply hasnt said yet. But there is a big difference between saying I personally thing we’re going to get to fight modremoth or not to saying Devs have confirmed we’re not going to be fighting him. I am personally going to be sceptic, not because I think you’re making it up but there have been so many examples of people misinterprting things Anet said, even of Anet wording things in ambiguis ways which end up conveying the wrong message. But yes I do agree with you its about time Anet started being a bit more specific on whats in the expansion.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I was mostly referring to all the gem store content.

I wouldnt consider gem store content as giving us stuff for free. The living story is a much better example of that. Still it would be disingenous for you to conisder DDO as total free to play just because you can earn TP for free and buy everything while holding Gw2 to a different standard.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

A lot of games are trying the free-to-play model nowadays. GW1 started the trend, but it is now no longer a unique feature. And companies are trying to find other ways to earn money from their customers. This started in GW1 with the in-game store (which made a lot of people unhappy), and then continued into GW2 to a much larger degree. Now the whole gem store concept, along with constant DLC, has become mainstream. We are seeing pay walls in a lot of games, and more and more companies are trying to exploit their customers.

Exploit customers is too hard a word. Thing is for Gw2 to be made a group of people (ncsoft share holders) forked a ton of money in advance. We’re talking wages for about 300 people for 5 years as well as expensices of running a business + licensing and other stuff they may have bought to get the job done. They didnt do this out of the kindness of their hearts, they did it as an investment. How would you feel if the bank you deposit your live savings in suddenly decided to cut your return in 1/2 simply because they have a chance of conscience one day and decide to charge less interests to entities borrowing money from the bank?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Although they will need to patch certain holes in the T-shirt right after you bought it, and while many customers were expecting the T-Shirt to have a really awesome picture at the back, that picture will in fact be added much later.

I am not sure what the holes are supposed to be to be honest. What holes did the living story patch?

I assume the picture at the back refers to the fight with mordremoth right? I looked hard and wide but didnt manage to find one single statement by an devs saying we will not get to fight modremoth in the expansion. Considering they gave us 0 news on the story I’d find it hard to believe they already spoke on that respect. Do you happen to have a link where they stated no fight in HoT?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Although most of the accessories will not be free. Just the ones that fix holes in the T-shirt.

Which updates in the past 3 years were not free (accessories was an analogy for updates)

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Another way to look at it, is that those other brands of T-shirts are not just expensive, but deliver bad quality on top of that. This T-shirt delivers good quality, but for a really really high price.

It’s not that the quality of this T-shirt is remarkably better. It’s just that the deal you are getting from other T-shirt manufacturers is remarkably worse. Basically, they are all trying to squeeze dollars out of their customers, but some T-shirt manufacturers are more greedy than others.

Would it though? If every T-Shirt in the world sold for $100, would someone releasing kitten t-shirt be considered overprised? What people are willing to pay for something is a massive driver for pricing. Just look at housing. 30 years ago houses around here sold for about $100,000ish now a days they sell for about $300,000 though no one would even dream selling the house they bought for $100,000 for anything less then $300,000 because ultimately the price isnt what an item costs but what people are willing to pay, it may be unfair but its how the business world works.

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

If someone gives you something and you have to spend extra money to use it, its one thing.

If someone sells you something many people expect it to work without additional purchases.

Which is why no one buys a car? or a pen? or why some items have the famous batteries no included sign?

plenty of things you buy require additional costs for you to enjoy. I wish when I purchased my PC it came with free electricity, internet and content but alas I have to pay for all of those, especially the content that ends up costing orders of magnitute more then what I paid for my PC

Both cars and pens where i come from are purchased full.

Also most the products you mentioned are not created and sold by the same company.

Regardless its probably not agAinst the law, its just something consumers dont like, especially when the competition tends to include everything you need.

Fair point. though technically you can buy a car and then later on buy extras for it. Still its not about law, you simply stated then when people buy something they arent expecting to pay more later which each of these purchase clearly invalidates that statement. Sure the manufactorer of the toy car you just baught may not manufactur batteries but neither do they manufacter the vast majority of parts that make up that toy car. For various reasons they chose to not include batteries and leave that purchase to you. Doesnt change the fact until you buy batteries you’re not enjoying you new toy car!

Competitors include everything you need? No they dont. Sub based MMOs dont include sub time with expansions (and you need that far more)

F2P games dont include the stuff you need to fully enjoy that content either (you’ll need to buy those pesky insurance stones if you want to upgrade the new weapons to their highest possible potential. Or the storage space needed to carry all the rewards the new content provides etc..

This is defintely not something Anet alone do

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

what I am trying to say, most likely really badly is personally I don’t think you can measure a price by content simply because there is no direct relation there. Price here is more of a raw supply and demand affair.

I disagree. Just because some people are willing to pay more for a product, does not mean that you can’t compare content vs price.

Yes, there will always be fans that will throw down as many dollars as required, regardless of how high the price is. That does not mean that that price is justified.

You seem to be implying that the value of a product is completely abstract, and differs from person to person. And while each person will no doubt attach a different value to any given product, that doesn’t mean that the product cannot be given an inherent value based on its content alone. I don’t think it is entirely subjective, as you seem to suggest it is. With digital products this is perhaps more difficult than with physical products, but it doesn’t make it impossible. In fact, the GW2 core game gives a direct comparison.

If we agree that GW2 was originally reasonably priced at $60, then I think we can also agree that any expansion that has the same price tag, should deliver at least as much content for that value.

Okey let me tell you why I believe thats a bad metric.

I mean I am heavily speculating now but I think there is a good chance the expansion will have more then 25 story missions and more then 205 dynamic events. using your own logic wouldnt that put it above the $50 prophecies charged?

Lets go deep in the dark crevises of speculation and state there is going to be 50 story missions and 500 dynamic events. If we compare it with the original guild wars using your metric thats worth $100

if we compare it to Gw2 thats still about 33% of what the core game had so worth $20

2 very different conclusions which we came to using metric. Provided there are actually 50 story missions and 500 dynamic events (which as yet we dont know) based on content size this expansion is overprised and underprised at the same time depending with what you compare it to. How can that be explained? only possible way is the price choosen never had a direct relation to the ammount of content in the first place. Because if it did Gw2 so have cost a lot more then prophecies did.

usernameisapain.7163:

Did you read my post ? =) my entire issue was with the pricing, I was just explaining that revenant/char slot 50/60 thing that people kept mentioning.
(snip)
Doesn’t change the fact that it is overpriced. No matter how you look at it, compare it to what games/ expansions cost 10 years ago, and 1 year ago. Compare it to a-nets own game releases. I simply cannot see how people can proclaim it is not overpriced?

There are many ways how to look at it. You can look at the price of the expansion itself and say okey Anet is charging $50 for their expansion. Only other company to do that was WoW so yeah pretty overprised.

Fair enough

There are other aspects to it though. Its a bit to early to tell but it may very well be it takes Anet 2-3 years to push out an expansion. $50 ever 2 to years 3 for gw2 is very reasonable. Not overprised in fact quite cheap for Example one other Buy to play game has DLC releases for $10 each. Super cheap right ? In 3 years it released 11 of them for a total of $110 + other smaller paid content. That alone makes it twice as expensive but when you factor in Gw2 also threw a ton of free content while this other game didnt the value you’re getting with Gw2 is much higher.

I dont think we need to even elaborate on sub based MMOs, $50 is what you pay to play 4 months and they still charge you $40. Never mind the other 32 months you have to pay for during that 3 year period.

Then there are F2P games. You generally get expansions for free here or for just $39.99 but then again you get more agressive cashshops. Cashshops that range from taking away gameplay mechanics unless you pay or that make it impossible to compete in PvP (upgrade insurance items), Severly limiting inventory etc.. Its hard to say how much it will cost to play such a game for 3 years. Could be cheaper, could be not.

usernameisapain.7163:

Point is it is overpriced. The same way I don’t buy a white brand t-shirt that cost 25 dollars, when I can get it for 15, I’m sure that if I buy the one for 25 I’ll be able to wear it for years come, but I can do that with the one for 15 too. Furthermore I know it’ll be on sale in 6 months for half the price, so I just won’t buy a t-shirt till then.

Thing is this isnt a white brand t-shirt, its a quality fashion shirt that sells for $50 and you can keep wearing it proudly for 2-3 years. The company is also nice enough to supply you with free accessories now and then too. There are other options some cheaper as low as $10 but these require changing every 3 months or so. Other t-shirts sell for $40 but require you pay $15 a month while you ‘re wearing them. Then there are free T-Shirts that have these little frustrating things such as coming in a size too small, or this little label in the back that keeps poking you while you’re walking around.
There is a solution to all these problems and it involves a small fee.

Now you can stop and just consider the price and conclude this is the most expensive shirt there is. Or you could look at the big picture and realise that everything considered the value you’re getting over time is actually better then some cheaper options.

phys.7689:

If someone gives you something and you have to spend extra money to use it, its one thing.

If someone sells you something many people expect it to work without additional purchases.

Which is why no one buys a car? or a pen? or why some items have the famous batteries no included sign?

plenty of things you buy require additional costs for you to enjoy. I wish when I purchased my PC it came with free electricity, internet and content but alas I have to pay for all of those, especially the content that ends up costing orders of magnitute more then what I paid for my PC

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

No expansion is the size of a full game, its unreasonable to expect it to be considering that an expansion is worked on for a fraction of the time a company works on the full game. That being said, we dont even know how big HoT is, isnt this argument a bit premature?

We know that it won’t be the size of a full game, because it is an expansion. And as you said, no expansion is the size of a full game.

But it is priced as a full game. This makes the price unreasonable, regardless of what future content they reveal in HOT. It’s not going to be more than a full game, and yet it is priced as one. On that basis alone, we can say it is too expensive.

Thing is pricing isnt that simple. Even in the physical world, things like pizza, ham burgers, steaks etc.. even though they’re relatively all the same size can vary in price greately. We dont expect a pizza that costs twice as much as another pizza to be twice the size because its not just about the size. Its also about the ingerients, its also about the quality, the service as well as the overall taste / experiance.

There is also another thing to consider, what if the core game was in a way sold for much less then what its worth? Lets compare Prophecies with Gw2 for example. Both took 5 years to develop but Anet had 120 employees in 2008 while they had 270 in 2012. More then twice the people worked on Gw2 so should it cost twice as much?

Even content wise. Cities were more then twice as elaborate, same goes for all the maps. Same goes for content 25 missions + 205 quests vs 100s of personal story missions (various combinations of prof, race and choices) + 1500 dynamic events + hearts etc…

Thing is pricing digital items is tricky business . Its not like pricing physical Items. I can easy say how much it costs for me to product a pizza, I can say how much markup I want to make and there is my price. A game on the other hand is a different story. You dont even know how many copies you’re going to sell so you dont know what the price has to be to break even much less to include the markup you intend to make.

what I am trying to say, most likely really badly is personally I dont think you can measure a price by conent simply because there is no direct relation there. Price here is more of a raw supply and demand affair. What price point will people be willing to buy at? and thats why I do feel that its perfecly reasonable to factor in the no-subscription and LS updates in that decision because this isnt about a physical item perse its about an experiance. $50 per 2-3 years is more then reasonable for what we’re getting imho.

Yes there are other revenue streams that pay for that stuff but this is the only guaranteed income Anet has, it is what makes sure NCsoft are happy enough with Anet that not only did they not downsize the team like most other MMOs do post launch but they were okey with increasing that team from 270 people to 350 people they have today. $10 above the industry average is more then fair for what we get in my opinion.

Test.8734:

It’s extremelly obvious that “HoT” has been in development for at most a little more than one year now,… And if you want to know what were the other 330 people working on, you need to stop taking things so literally and read some of the Glassdoor reviews about ArenaNet.

how is it extremely obvious? I quoted my statements with facts, how about you do the same?

I am not exactly seeing any glassdoor reviews saying Anet is lying about having 350 employees (which makes it the largest MMO development team btw) or that Living story is all they have developed or that we didnt start working on the expansion until very recently. So again what are you refering to specifically?

Test.8734:

We hardly got any content update while ArenaNet has been developing HoT

Hardly any content updates? We got 42 content releases since Gw2 Launched!

Test.8734:

ArenaNet thinks we know enough for them to ask us to pay full price in advance for something without a release date or even a release window. Even a Kickstarter campaign needs a release window for it to be accepted on that website…

It is pointless providing a release date that you’re not sure about. You mentioned kickstarter. Lets take The most successful kickstarter of all time, star citizen. They reported on their kickstarter it would release November 2014. Now its been moved to end 2016. does that help anyone?

Test.8734:

LOOOOOOOOOL! Dream on!
I can’t believe someone actually believes that the expansion has been under development since the beginning of the Living Story. You have zero evidence of that…

You mean the same exact amount of evdence people who say its only been in development a few months have? At least we got some facts supporting our position.

Test.8734:

Meanwhile, let me ask you a very simple question: if they have 330 people working on the expansion for years now, and only 20 on the Living Story… Why has ArenaNet not released any new LS update since they announced the expansion? …Why would the small LS have to stop because of the expansion the other 330 are working on?

I have no idea why, all I can do is speculate. So lets say work started in parallel and Anet hoped Living story Season 2 and Expansion would be ready around the same time only it didnt turn out that way, Expansion took longer. Now Anet have a problem, they cannot continue with the living story because the living story leads to Expansion and Season 3 might have been designed to take place at the end of the expansion timeline. So what can they do? They cant even create a fake living story to keep us occupied since that wouldnt fit. Take a side project before going to help destoryed pack fleet! And dont forget that there might have been 20 people but those 20 people need time to complete content. When those 20 people were split into 4 teams each time was responsible for a months worth of content so essentially for every release a team would have worked on it for 4 months. Ergo it may take 4 months to create a filler living story episode that will not even fit the story. Not worth the cost. Let me counter ask you a question then. I guess your theory is LS and Expansion team are one and the same. Anet stated only a couple of months ago they’re 350 employees. Anet themselves said 20 people work on the living story. What do you think the other 330 are working on and have been working on all this time?

Test.8734:

If ArenaNet had so many people working in the expansion, why did they tell us they would have to stop LS production while preparing for the China release, when they could use people from the expansion team to fix that? …

Preparing for the china release required a lot of changes to the core game and until you finalize them you have no stable platform to develop and test on. What you do in those situation is insitute what is called a code freeze until you stablize your platform:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze_

Test.8734:

If ArenaNet has been working on an expansion for that long, why did they say they didn’t have a point in releasing an expansion, in the time frame you claim they were working in one? Are you saying ArenaNet was lying?

They never said they were not going to release an expansion. They always said since day 1 that they would develop new maps, new areas, new professions, new personal storylines etc. they only said they were uncertain if they would release them through an expansion or through the living story.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-03-its-unlikely-guild-wars-2-will-ever-get-an-expansion-pack

here:

“Four discrete Living World teams, made up of designers of all disciplines, each spend four months developing roughly one full month’s worth of content”

“But those teams are “a fraction” of ArenaNet’s massive development force as a whole."

“[Living World] is only a fraction of what the rest of the company is working on,” "We have large feature teams that are working on exciting things behind the scenes that, when it’s ready, we’ll release those with these updates.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

The problem with “objectivity” and logic is that it only works if you have all the information. Even if you knew every single thing that was in the box, it doesn’t tell you what else you’ll get for owning that box after the fact.

Vayne, we talked about this so many times. Yes without having all the numbers you do not know for sure what is going on or make predictions with 100% certainty.

However, as I told you in the discussions we have had, you can still work with the information you have, you can make use of common sense and get an idea about something with that information. Name it an educated guess.

Nearly all prediction, decisions and gathering of information is done in this way. If you look at the weather they do not have all the information, they even have a real small piece of all the information (that is why they are not extremely accurate) but do still predict the weather based on that.

It is how the world works. It might be useful in a discussion to come with this statement in a way to try and dismiss what a person is saying, but it’s not a really good argument.

This just doesnt work let me illustrate why.

So right now we dont know how much content HoT is going to have but we do know what Anet did so far.

So Person A might look at the LS and say ohh they were tiny 2 hr updates at most. Anet has a history of releasing small updates so based on what I know I have no doubt HoT will be tiny. $60 for a tiny update not worthed.

Person B looks at the LS and goes. wow an update every 2 weeks while working on an example. Thats a ton more then competing MMOs do. They generally release 3-5 updates while we wait, Anet released 40-50… This Expansion is going to be X10 larger then competing expansions.

Who’s right? probably neither but both are valid interpretations of the data thats available.

Vayne is right without the facts all we’re doing is guessing. There just isnt enough information not even for an educated guess.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Vayne.8563:

But to say there’s not enough content, when we don’t know about the content is pointless. As I said earlier, you can’t compare Nightfall or EotN or anything to HoT because we have all the detail of those, but we don’t have all the detail about HoT. The best you can do is just guess.

It’s too early to tell.

It’s the price of a full game, for something that is not a full stand alone game. I’d say there is a solid basis for criticism there.

No expansion is the size of a full game, its unreasanble to expect it to be considering that an expansion is worked on for a fraction of the time a company works on the full game. That being said, we dont even know how big HoT is, isnt this argument a bit premature?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

I may be loved by Anet’s marketing department but make no mistake I am sure you’re loved by Anet’s competitors marketing departments too.

Apart from DDO and GW2, I don’t play other MMO’s. And DDO has not earned a single penny from that so far.

I have long been a very big supporter of Arena Net. Me and my snowman companion have been organizing large scale community events in Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 (now with the help of an amazing crew) since GW1 launched. And I have helped with GW1 testing in the past as well. So I want to make it clear where my criticism is coming from. I’m a big Guild Wars fan, but this just doesn’t sit right with me. And you seem to be buying too eagerly into marketing talks.

Its not marketing talk its fact, I myself didnt need to buy an extra character slot to play revenant even if they didnt give a free slot away for pre-purchase and higher tiers above standard. I am sure I am not unique in that. I know you can buy character slots using in game money without having to turn the game into a job, I know because I did it myself and I never farm, I play to enjoy myself not as a second job.

I do know you organize events I’ve seen some advertised, not sure how that changes anything though. I didnt say other MMOs marketing teams would thank you to imply you hate the game or your opinion doesnt matter simply to illustrate the fact every coin has 2 faces. Truth is any opinion benefits someone. My position that an extra character slot isnt a mandatory purchase may benefit Anet but your position benefits other people too does that mean any argument is more or less valid?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

And again thats assuming all slots are filled which might not even be an issue for some. How many people key farm? How many people said the NPE was an issue for them? How many people dont like having alts? How many people bought more slots then they actually needed when they were on sale? (I am guilty of this for example) How many people stated the reason for not buying HoT was they were not interested in the Revenant?

So you are saying that just because there are some customers that are not interested in an extra character slot, that it is there for not a valid argument that an extra $10 should be included when looking at the price of the expansion with an extra profession?

Because if that is what you are saying, I still disagree. There are plenty of customers that WILL need it, and for them this raises the price by $10 bucks.

No, my argument is that this is an optional purchase just like an armor skin is, or an extra bank slot etc.. I may like this weapon skin because it goes great with the imagine I have of this character in my mind. Now I may use gold to buy it, I may use my time and farm keys hoping for a ticket drop, I may even get out my credit card and use real money to get the gold I need but none of that implies the game costs $10 more then it does for everybody regardless of how much it would cost if i had to buy that skin with real money. Same thing with this character slot. Do some need it? Undoubtly. Does that mean the expansion costs $60 rather then $50? No. None of them have to pay $10 extra to get it unless they want to which by the very definision of the word makes it optional. Whats also equally without a doubt is that not every needs an extra character slot which makes your statement that this expansion actually costs $60 not $50 definitely incorrect.

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.

The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.

Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?

People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.

10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.

No it doesnt. If I spend 20 hrs reading a book , how much value is that? Can I trade that for anything really? Playing a game is not work, its entertainment, what you’re getting out of it is enjoyment. The gold you get isnt really money in any shape or form, its merely a token used in the game mechanics to provide you with more complexity.

Without being able to sell its essentially worthless. No bank is going to give me a loan based on all the gold I have in Gw2 no matter how many times I explain the hours that went into generating it could have generated me way more then the colleteral requested by the bank had I worked a real job instead.

Getting a free character slot usinging ingame money wouldnt be any different then getting that nice expensive skin you’re after from the trading post. In both cases you didnt “work” for it, its a reward for playing (and hopefully enjoying yourself) for X amount of hours.

Your gold has value because anet sells it, and because you can use it to buy things which have monetary value.

If i get paid to write books by say, target. Who pays me in target credits. My book reading has value. Monetary value.

Target sells my books
And i get things of monetary value in exchange.

How much i enjoy writing is irrelevant to the value of my writing

You are writing as a paid job. Playing a game isn’t a job.

Anything you do that can make money has monetary value, wether you realize it or not.

Just because something is entertaining does not mean it has no monetary value.

If you realized this, and had the desire to, you probably could get money from your 5 on 5 games.

People in Fact can, and do.
Sponsorship
Make youtube videos of your games
Sell tickets
Create local tournaments

Regardless any resource you have to earn and can be spent has value. Its not “free” 10 hours of your in game earnings has a market value of 10 dollars. You can pay for it with 10 american or 100 gold tyrian doesnt change the fact you are paying.

Not excactly. Playing a 5v5 friendly game doesnt have monitary value at all even in your example. Think about… if you get a sponsor its not the game that has the monitery value but you advertising for the sponsor. Same with making youtube videos. Its not the game but rather then advertising on the videos thats making the money. selling tickets comes close but again its not the game thats being monotized but actual ticket sales. Saying that number of passes you do in a game has monitary value just because you’re getting money out of ticket sales would be wrong. Okey this sounds wierd because football and gw2 dont exactly work the same way. so lets forget football
lets say you can get people to pay for watching you playing Gw2 it would still be wrong to say ingame gold has monitary value because the money you make has no direct corrolation with how much in game gold you make.

Simply speaking, advertisment, tickets etc.. you can sell / trade so they have value, ingame gold you cant so it doesnt.

But forget all of this, if something has value that value can be quantified. For example I can state today 1 euro has the same value as 1.12 dollars.
Likewise You can also state that today 10 dollars have approxamately the same value of 91g 28s so how much in game gold would it take for me to buy 1 dollar? answer is not even all the ingame gold in the world would buy me 1 dollar. (unless I go through illegal means but thats a different story)

phys.7689:

Your gold has value because anet sells it, and because you can use it to buy things which have monetary value.

If i get paid to write books by say, target. Who pays me in target credits. My book reading has value. Monetary value.

Target sells my books
And i get things of monetary value in exchange.

How much i enjoy writing is irrelevant to the value of my writing

Thats not how it works. I can buy a monopoly board but just because Hasbro sells it doesnt mean I can then go and buy stuff with monopoly money, I like many other just really really wish that was the case.

Arenanet selling gold isnt any different then arenanet selling a skin. That item only has value for arenanet because they are the only ones who can sell and without the ability to sell it is worthless just like to Hasbro monopoly money is a gold mine but to the customer its not even worth the paper its printed on so to speak.

Adding a bit to this, if we were speaking about say planet calypso where you can actually legally exchange in game money for real money then you’d be right but as long as there is no way to legally exchange in game for real money, in game money has 0 real money value. That you can buy it is irelevant, buying stuff for consumption doesnt make it valueable. Going by your previous I create shoes and then trade those shoes for food example. The shoes have value because you can sell them (trading is esentially selling and buying at the same time) but in your example if you want it to be a perfect analogy one you exchange the shoes for food you’re no longer able to do anything with that food except eating it. You cannot trade that food back for shoes or anything else which essentially means while the shoes(real money) have value, the food (virtual currency) have not. They’re just something you can consume for your enjoyment / Actually staying alive in this case.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

So then by your same logic Gw2 Core didnt cost $60 but $1210 since you need 8 professions x 5 races x 3 personal story branches = 120 character slots to experiance all the core game has to offer and you only get 5. That leaves you 115 short so you had to buy $1150 worth of slots on top of the $60. actually strictly speaking you need to buy 2 copies if you want 120 slots so technically its $60 more but lets forget about that cost for now. wow Heart of Thorns is a real bargain at just $60.

I would say that by not including enough character slots to play all of the professions, that we were indeed not getting a very good deal with the core game either.

Why stop at professions? Is experiancing all professions any less/more important than experiancing all storylines?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

Are you really suggesting thats a fair assessement?

Anet decides the price tag of a character slot. I don’t agree with your creative number juggling, but I do agree that the original game should have given us more character slots for the money we original paid. That said though, we DID get a full game worth of content, which is not what we are getting this time around (yet for the same price, and without any character slot)

You’re right it is creative number juggling but what you’re missing is you did exactly the same thing. There is no written law that states you need to have a character slot for every profession there is. As a matter of fact every game has limits on the amount of character slots and in some there even isnt a way around that except playing on a new server (loosing all the friends you made), or actually deleting an existing character. With a sub the cost of playing a new profession increase way more then the price of simply buying a character slot too.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

The extra character slot is an optional purchase much like buying 115 more character slots for the core game is an optional purchase.

I’m sure they’d love you at their marketing department. Fortunately many of us don’t see it that way, and have a more grounded view of game-content versus price.

I may be loved by Anet’s marketing department but make no mistake I am sure you’re loved by Anet’s competitors marketing departments too.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

Plenty of ways how you can avoid that $10, saying its mandatory is simply disingenuous.

You are still paying for the character slot, and you will most likely need it. To claim that it is entirely optional is exactly what the marketing department wants you to think.

But the expansion does give you one new profession, and if you’ve used up your character slots (which were already not enough for all the classes) then you will need a new one. How you go about getting it makes very little difference. You can pay for it with dollars, euros, gems or gold. But either way it raises the actual price of the product.

getting it with gold, doesnt rise the price. Applying the HoT key on a new account doesnt rise the price in anyway. Deleting an existing character doesnt rise the price. Pre-purchasing doesnt rise the price. So no, your statement is incorrect.

And again thats assuming all slots are filled which might not even be an issue for some. How many people key farm? How many people said the NPE was an issue for them? How many people dont like having alts? How many people bought more slots then they actually needed when they were on sale? (I am guilty of this for example) How many people stated the reason for not buying HoT was they were not interested in the Revenant?

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

are you sure you only paid $50 for the CE?

This the price of standard edition at launch:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061105210932/https://store.plaync.com/home.php?cat=251

$49.99

This page here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080414172923/http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Collector's_Edition
suggests collectors edition carry the $70 price tag though its hard to find out how much something really sold for so many years ago.

Here are the prices of Nightfall:
Guild Wars Nightfall (the BASE game) was 49.99 USD. The price of Guild Wars Nightfall Collector’s Edition was 59.99 USD.

Those are MSRP (manufacturer’s suggested retail price) at the time of release. Depending on where someone got them, and when of course, the price might differ.

Sources:
http://www.ign.com/games/guild-wars-nightfall/pc-822537
http://www.ign.com/games/guild-wars-nightfall/pc-850088

Its also important to note each collectors edition was a limited edition, I highly doubt before sometime after launch it could have been possible to get one for less then MSRP

though to be fair there are posts around of cheap versions as early as december (2 months after release) also posts that state prices as high as $175 in that same time period.

phys.7689:

How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.

The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.

Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?

People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.

10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.

No it doesnt. If I spend 20 hrs reading a book , how much value is that? Can I trade that for anything really? Playing a game is not work, its entertainment, what you’re getting out of it is enjoyment. The gold you get isnt really money in any shape or form, its merely a token used in the game mechanics to provide you with more complexity.

Without being able to sell its essentially worthless. No bank is going to give me a loan based on all the gold I have in Gw2 no matter how many times I explain the hours that went into generating it could have generated me way more then the colleteral requested by the bank had I worked a real job instead.

Getting a free character slot usinging ingame money wouldnt be any different then getting that nice expensive skin you’re after from the trading post. In both cases you didnt “work” for it, its a reward for playing (and hopefully enjoying yourself) for X amount of hours.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

comprisedpuma.1324:

And the actual product is $50, not $60.

If you believe that, then you have been successfully fooled by marketing. Anet knows that many players will need a new character slot to play the revenant. So they know people will have to fork over an extra $10 bucks to play it.

That inflates the price to $60, whether you like it or not. This is why previous chapters of Guild Wars 1 always included a number of extra character slots equal to the amount of new professions added.

So then by your same logic Gw2 Core didnt cost $60 but $1210 since you need 8 professions x 5 races x 3 personal story branches = 120 character slots to experiance all the core game has to offer and you only get 5. That leaves you 115 short so you had to buy $1150 worth of slots on top of the $60. actually strictly speaking you need to buy 2 copies if you want 120 slots so technically its $60 more but lets forget about that cost for now. wow Heart of Thorns is a real bargain at just $60.

Are you really suggesting thats a fair assessement?

The extra character slot is an optional purchase much like buying 115 more character slots for the core game is an optional purchase. For starters not everyone has 5 alts, even those that have 5 alts may have already bought more slots and they may not have been filled (example I had 2 free slots before they even announced HoT). Even if you have no free slots, there is the gold option or even delete one of you existing character slots. Or if you dont want to do any of that and just dont want to spend an extra $10 and neither do you want to prepurchase, you also have the option of applying HoT to a new account and you get not 1 but 5 free slots. Plenty of ways how you can avoid that $10, saying its mandatory is simply disingenuous.

are you sure you only paid $50 for the CE?

This the price of standard edition at launch:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061105210932/https://store.plaync.com/home.php?cat=251

$49.99

This page here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080414172923/http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Collector's_Edition
suggests collectors edition carry the $70 price tag though its hard to find out how much something really sold for so many years ago.

Diovid.9506:

Galen Grey.4709:

Even in the beta people who feel down got teleported up not landed on the ground and then had the ability to go under ground like you’d expect if each map had all 3 biomes.

I’m pretty sure that is because the underground biome was not included in the beta.

its not just the underground biome, I mean naturally there needs to be a ground level before an underground level. Neither the map or what visually could be seen suggests there was anything like that. And lets not forget there was a ton of verticality in that map already. Can you imagine maps being 2x-3x as high? (suberainain level requires its own verticality and ground level isnt generally perfectly flat either though for ground level you probably could get away with limited verticality hence my 2x-3x)

But None of what I just said means you’re wrong. You’re right its in deed possible there was more vertical space that simply wasnt included in the beta. Though personally I dont think thats the case.

Diovid.9506:

Rainbowsand.2438:

3 maps, a new class, new talents and – YAY!!! – completely free character slot!!!

Correction: An unknown number of maps (but at least 2), each with 3 biomes.

Also, you forgot: adventures, masteries, new skins, future living story updates, guild halls and ‘challenging group content’ (whatever that turns out to be).

unless I missed some post by arenanet actually we dont know that each map has all 3 biomes in it, thats something people came up with as far as I know not Arenanet. Infact from what I have seen this is likely not the case. there are plenty of videos showing the upper canaopy and an abyss under that. Even in the beta people who feel down got teleported up not landed on the ground and then had the ability to go under ground like you’d expect if each map had all 3 biomes.

Seems to me like its not going to be 3 biomes per map but rather seperate maps for seperate biomes.

Rainbowsand.2438:

3 maps, a new class, new talents and – YAY!!! – completely free character slot!!!
Well i do realize that speaking to completely kittenized former humans is kinda pointless but there are some that arent beyond salvation yet, no?

I remember they asked 2k rub for PA early access. I have bought it for 90 rub on a Steam sale a few months ago. Steam haves some understanding of value instead of relying on kittenizing and ripping off their clientela.

Its 3 biomes not 3 maps, we have no clue how many maps there are.

It is still a pirate city even though much less so. Go find Magnus and Elen and hear their converstations on the matter.

HawkMeister.4758:

The only misinforming people here are the usual suspects spouting of marketing hype like it´s gospel.

My information is DIRECTLY from ANet as I´ve eagerly watched the videos of every beta event, which showed different parts of the same map.
Heck, the last one even had the center part impassable, as it was “the heart of the jungle”.

Here´s a little life lesson for you fan-atics.
When somebody is selling you something, but won´t show you the whole deal.
Odds are good you´re gona get taken for a ride.

But don´t take my word for it, just wait till you´ve seen the finished product.
Oh well.
Too late for some, you´ve already per-ordered. Might you even be in this thread accusing me of lying? Who knows?

Of course all the beta events showed the same map because they only opened one map for the beta event how could you see any other maps. but what this did you forget about the teaser? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOUk2y0K2m8

do you really think thats all the same map? from the huge city panaroma (0:50) to the lush jungle (1:15) to the desert (verdant Brink)? From the big high canopies , some which are roughished and buring (1:50) while others are prestine and green (2:30)

and then lets not forget this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdK69Ni6zQk

tons of Ruines (0:34-0:45), Huge underground caves (1:00-1:06), some kind of temple (1:14)

You really expect all that is cramed in 1 single map, a single map which the beta already uncovered 1/4 of it and there is nothing looking like any of the above references areas?

HawkMeister.4758:

There is going to be one new class and ONE NEW MAP.
Yes, it will be layered like a lasagna but it will NOT have a dungeon with inbuilt “free” armors and weapons.
Instead it will have oh so meaningful open world content, which amounts to pretty much the sameish living world Zerg content we already saw, just more static.

Yes the GvG stuff is cool and their maps are a nice touch, looking great. Albeit they seem too humongously huge and will probably end up too empty at the end of the day.

ALL of the above is fact and to me simply not worth 50 bucks, especially when that price was pretty much set by some Chinese market analyst to determine the profitability of this game in the next fiscal quarters.
THAT´S the real reason for this current pre-order hype, and I´m sorry guys but you´re falling for the old bait&switch like … {insert appropriate expression}.

How can there be just one map when we know there are going to be at least 4.

There is definitely Verdant Brink
With Guild hall reveal they also stated the guildhalls are regular maps that exist in the open world until you unlock them and then you get an instance for your guild but you can still access the open world which is how you can swap between guildhall maps anytime you want. They also mentioned adjecent maps. Unfortunately they only mentioned 1 adjecent map Basically they stated Gilded Hollow is adjecent to the The lost golden city zone. The other is probably adjecent to a different zone but there is a chance it may be adjecent to Verdant Brink? who know! But one thing is sure, there is definitely more then 1 map.

I am not sure how this is even a question, there are 3 biomes. How can you have 3 biomes in 1 single map ?

rotten.9753:

Bubi.7942:

bursts out laughing

Yeah right. Dream on.

He doesn’t dream, he’s mocking your intelligence.

actually its called speculation but dont worry, I am used it. When Vayne and myself speculated an expansion must be in development cause living story was made up for just 20 people out of 350+ employees as well as some promenent people were never heard from again after lunched people laughed too, they told us to dream on etc..

I dont know whats with this community but people like to expect the worst here.

Doesnt matter we’ll know the truth soon enough.

Chris McSwag.4683:

There was a mail, saying thanks for purchasing. but no items included.
The FAQ does however say the items will be received within “a few hours” – so I guess ill just wait for now.

Yeah I too first recieved an email with thanks and then the items the day after, so yeah they should be there soon™

Zyme.1492:

I refuse to buy an expansion pack without more character slots. Playing for almost 6 months I already maxed them and I need more to play Revenant. I’m not gonna put out €
75 to get another slot.

The blog post states “For all players who registered the core Guild Wars 2® game prior to January 23, 2015 and who upgrade their account by prepurchasing and registering any Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns edition before Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns‘ launch, we will add one additional character slot to your Guild Wars 2 account.”

I started playing January 25, 2015 and my friend a few weeks later.

Thanks for clarifying that we wont be buying this expansion until it goes on sale.

If you bought after the 23rd, provided you buy HoT you will get whatever you paid for Gw2 refunded (assuming you bought it directly for Anet) Cheapest you could ever buy it for was $10 so with that much refunded you can buy 800 gems and buy yourself another character slot. You may not get a free character slot directly but you can still get your “free” character slot.

ohh and no you dont loose any progress, your account will not even close:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/pre-purchase-community-address/

“For all players who purchased the Guild Wars 2 core game from our website and registered it between January 23, 2015 and June 16, 2015 in anticipation of Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, we will automatically refund what you paid for the core game should you decide to pre-purchase Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns from our website or in-game store any time through July 31, 2015. If you take advantage of this refund and pre-purchase Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, all of your current account progress will be kept intact.”

adormtil.1605:

The expansion for FFXIV is $40 not 50$ and its 60$ if you wanna buy the entire game. Why do we not have that option if we already have the game?
Really why?
I must add that FFXIV expansion has more features unlike ours and we know that because we saw with out own eyes what it had.

Just for clarification, we know what FFXIV Expansion has, we do not yet know what Our has however.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Well easier access for new players and building up a player base are ofc logical and noble reasons.

Now how about the less noble ones? “Certain mmorpg” (whose name i can’t mention due to forum rules) had an expansion release y-day. Now i don’t have it but if I wanted to buy it together with x-pac, then it’s $60. On official website that is.

But it’s already out at 3rd party retailers, and after bit of snooping i found out i can grab core + xpac for around 38,5$.
That game has a sub, so ofc it’s gonna be more then that over time. But what i mean is if A-net asked players to pay let’s say 30$ for core + 50$ for HoT, latter being a pre-purchase without a release date, and not a ready, just launched product, like over at competition…well that might’ve not been the best for their sales…

So sometimes being nice to your playerbase pays off a bit…and majority of the time pays off bigtime.

I think you’re overthinking it a bit. Thing is if people didnt buy Gw2 for the last 3 years even when on multiple times it was on sale for $10 chances are they’re not going to buy it now. They’re certainly not going to buy if they have to pay $30 for the core game and $50 for the expansion.

However Free is a powerful force. Buy 1 game and get another for free? (even though strictly speaking an expansion isnt a game) that might convince a few people and every new player is potentially another sale once the next expansion launches not to mention they may spend gems and they keep the game playerbase healthy

Jephiroth.3197:

I prepurchased the ultimate edition the night it was announced.

And now I’m getting a bonus character slot.

3 years of entertainment, 2000 hours of fun, 7 80’s and a 68, and now two bonus slots for new enjoyment!

Am I supposed to be upset? or happy now?

I know the answer to that… HAPPY!

desertleaf.5403:

sadly.

I all heard was. You bought core game $60.00 USD on release.

Now you spent $100USD

which is can be the equivalent break down of Core game ($60 USD) + 4000 gems ( $50 USD) in Black lion TP, = $110 USD.

hence,
110 – 10 = 100 thus the 10 dollars you saved is all the extra stuff they tacked on to it and the expansion.

However, You already own the Core game — therefore you gave $ 50 USD away for the expansion, bought yourself 4000 gems from the black lion for another $50 and got a bunch of tacked on junk with it for free.

new players are still better off – they will get everything you just got and save the initial $60.00 you gave for free.
___________________ INSTEAD_______________________________
You should have just bought the expansion itself, and bought 4000 gems following that.
[You could have saved $20.00 or more assuming Heart of Thorns can be sold separate]

What you said doesnt add up. 4000 gems = $50.. so buying HoT = $50 (HoT) + $50 (4000 gems) = $100

that leaves you short of 1 character slot ($10) 1 Mini pet = ($3.5) I glider skin = ($6), 1 finisher = ($6),

What you’re suggesting would be paying just $10 less but missing out on over $45 worth of stuff.

because yeah sure you save $10 but you get $25 less stuff, miss out on Living story Season 2 which you need to buy for another $20 AND much worst you miss out on 3 years of Guild wars 2, including all season 1 that you cannot even get to experiance, not being there for all those one of events of the early days, or be there the first time the holiday events appeared and that is worth WAY, WAYYYYYY more then $10

DarkSyze.8627:

Obtena.7952:

It’s interesting people question if it’s worth $50 … considering the hundreds or even thousands of hours they get from playing the game. The price per hour of this kind of entertainment is actually ridiculously cheap compared to lots of other entertaining hobbies you could be doing.

No, $50 is not much to pay, even if it’s just ‘one map, one new profession’, like someone people are proclaiming.

$50 is not much to pay?

A player posted this:

Thats pointless you’re comparing missing information (we dont know all HoT has) with full information (we know all Heavenward has)

For example we dont know how many maps there are in HoT, what if there are more then 7?

we dont know what challenging group content there will be, what if there is more then 8 new dungeons? or perhaps 8 new dungeons with 3 paths each? It may even contain raids or the equivalent (Arenanet did hire a raid specialist after all)

and that isnt even complete HoT also came with a trait / skill system redesign. redesigned guilds (guild teams, guild unlocks etc..), and there is a new gameplay elements adventures and outposts.

ohh and a minor correction, there are actually 9 specializations not 8, revenant gets one too.

DarkSyze.8627:

So without knowing if Hot is worth the price: people preorder it just because they see it posted in a site and in a commercial?

Example: It is like paying 20$ movie ticket just because of the commercial and movie ads?..

I can tell you why I pre-ordered it. Its true we have no clue how much content there is going to be but we know what Anet did so far. They spent 2 1/2 years releasing content constantly while working on the expansion. Content thats heavy on story which is something I like. That contrasts with other MMOs I’ve play were you hardly get any content updates while they develop an expansion and the content you get if any is generally dungeons you’re meant to repeat over and over and thats content I personally dont particularly enjoy. I am happy to buy the expansion just based on that premise never mind that chances are this is going to be repeated for the next 2-3 years.

Then there is what they have revealed so far. Guild halls are big features with lots of goodies (new crafting profession, Arena, decorations, huge map etc..) Specalizations that if you factor in skills and traits they provide they’re like 2 new professions (each specialization is 1/5 of a profession (1 heal vs 4, 4 utility vs 20 , 1 elite vs 5 1 trait line vs 5) with the revenant thats like they’re releasing 3 new professions (the equivalent) and expansions generally dont have more then 2 in my experiance. Then there is the whole trait and skill system rework which many expansions dont even touch.

So while yeah there is still alot that I havent heard about but what was revealed so far appear to be well done and plentiful.

evildeadjunky.1576:

Not to be a bubble popper, but its unlikely. There is still 6 weeks of elite specs left to be shared and 2 weeks of Rev core specs left. thats 2 months in itself and push it past Aug 1st

And thats not considering PvE content, Maps, Story, Adventures, Challenging Group content, dungeons/fractals/raids (if any) etc..

but then again with Guild halls they had no issue dropping bulk information on single days so who knows!

Gene Archer.8560:

I’m referring to their ability to quickly handle gamebreaking patches for one. There’s also the free copies of Witcher and Witcher 2 they offered to Korean customers due to some problems that cropped up. I’d have to find that article again for the specifics on what the issue was.

Fixing bugs doesnt even involve upper management at least no more then keeping them in the loop. Anet do that too. they fix a lot of stuff the days following each release.

Offering free copies would be a good example, I’d be interested in seeing that article if you find it.

Gene Archer.8560:

I’m referring to even this expansion fallout.
But yes, also past issues.

Then I think you misunderstood what we were saying. We were talking about Arenanet anticipating the backlash before they announced the pre-purchase. IE when they were discussing what to include in the package months before the announcement did they realize what they did decided would make fans angry? That is naturally something that current threads couldnt have helped them forsee, at least not without a time machine.

Gene Archer.8560:

There’s also the threads that popped up in regards to the heroic edition changes. So, um, yeah. There is some precedent for figuring out if vets might get salty over something like the core game bundle.

Those were very minor so much so I dont even recall what the issue was!

Gene Archer.8560:

No, they didn’t. They could have sold Draenor easily off of the marketing and hype alone

You think so? so you’re a player who thought Pandaria sounds bad and decided not to buy it at all. Draenor launches but if you’ve even been playing you’re still level 85 because well you dont own pandaria so now suddenly you’re okey with play though pandaria in order to get to level 90 so you can start draenor ? (not sure if there is another way to get to 90 without playing through pandaria (not a wow player) if thats there is an equally or faster way to get to 90 my argument is likely invalid.

Gene Archer.8560:

The fact is, they did, and they factored that into the pricing, that’s why it cost the extra $10.

of course it matters. if giving away something for free increases your market size by 3 million people you’d be crazy to charge $10 for it. (again provided there was no alternative)

Gene Archer.8560:

There is no such thing as a “gift” for the players in anything a company does. It’s all an attempt at making sales

I didnt say its not an attempt to make a sale Anet arent giving away the core simply to be nice, they’re doing it to sell more HoT and to increase future Gem sales. But againt its a bad idea to charge again for it now.

Gene Archer.8560:

Blizzard still did not have to do it. Hype alone would have shot Warlords into the starry night as a raging success rocket.

didnt do that with pandaria!

Gene Archer.8560:

It’s a business move, nothing more. ANet heavily miscalculated, though

Again there are business moves and there are business moves.

Lets take WoW as an example. If I buy WoW today, it will cost me 7.5 euro
That includes the core game and 4 expansions. Now they state the base game includes the expansions up until draenor for free. Now you could argue there is a hidden charge with every expansion included, they’re not really giving it for free but why wouldnt they? If they get me to buy its not just those 7.5 they’ll get but also the sub and future expansion sales if i stick with the game.

Same here there is no need for Anet to secretly charge for the core game because the business motive for doing that isnt to get some money off the sale of the core game, its to get money for the expansion sale and future gem sales. So yeah the target is always to make more money but its not necessary to cheat to reach that target.

Gene Archer.8560:

From what I’m hearing, not everyone is being offered a refund. Only those about a month out are being offered the refund.

Did you actually hear about people being refused a refund or is it just that the stories you hear of people who have successfully refunded had bought the game less then a month ago?

Gene Archer.8560:

And honestly, in my opinion? No, it doesn’t make up for the FAQ issue. ANet continues to have these horrible communication issues with its playerbase/customers, even after promising to step up their game when it comes to communication. There are severe internal issues that they need to work out and fast.

How could they handle the FAQ issue any differently if they did indeed change their minds after the published the FAQ?

Devata.6589:

Most stakeholders don’t even know what a character slot is so I don’t think that if this would be the only thing they wanted to do it would have been decided on that high level, while the question, what they will do likely must.

I think you’re mixing stakeholders with shareholders. Pretty sure every stakeholder knows what a character slot is. Stakeholders would be teams that are related to an item. In this case including a character slot for free. Owner of that would probably be sales. Stakeholders would include finance who have to base their forcasts on what sales do. (including character slot for free means less revenue, while not including it generates revenue stream for those people who lack a free character slot) another stakeholder will be development itself since based on the forcasts by finance can plan how many resources they’ll have for development content in the future etc…

Devata.6589:

Giving a char slot would help a little but is likely not what would really satisfy most people as the people complaining about the $50,- where expecting a char slot even with a $35,- version.

well there is nothing anyone can do for those people really.

Devata.6589:

Maybe Anet simply changed direction with their business model (focusing more on expansion instead of micro-transactions) and then all they have to do is explain that. There might then be people who don’t believe Anet will also indeed do that, but overall it would solve the $50,- issue for the biggest part.

somehow I think the bulk of those who are unhappy would not believe them anyway. Besides I doubt the pricing is based on the business model, it probably is more related to the amount of work it took to develop the expansion but since we dont yet know the full extent of the expansion its too early to judge this.

Devata.6589:

Then there is of course the problem with the GW2 being given away for free while for the last 6 months GW2 has been promoted a lot while the faq stated it was for free. This is a way harder problem to fix, the honest thing to do is allow people to buy HoT and reduce the price by the amount they spend on GW2, and that would then be the case for everybody who did buy GW2 since they announced HoT. That would be the most fair way, however it would likely reduce much of the income for the previous quarter so not really an option form a business viewpoint. So I think that is something they can’t really fix.

How would that be the honest thing to do ? give hot for free to all those 3.5 million people who bought the game at launch? that would be crazy. The honest thing to do is exactly what they’re doing. Refund what you paid, give you back your account as soon as you buy HoT.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Galen Grey.4709:

The problem is your assumption that its just 3 maps, as its been pointed out numours times now Anet havent revealed how many maps there are. All they said is there are 3 biomes and personally I cannot understand how people expect a single map per biome when the core game has 5 maps per biome not counting the cities.

That’s true but you have to admit that Anet’s silence on this is pretty deafening.

I’ve only once seen an MMO company be so quiet and vague about the content of their upcoming expansion. Mythic with DAoC’s Trials of Atlantis expansion. Which was an utter disaster.

So why not put us out of our misery and give us some details, eh, Anet?

I am not saying i agree with how Anet are handling this. I said it before and I will say it again, I think they should have told us exactly what was included (not including spoiler of course) before opening pre-purchase. people need to know what they’re buying.

All I am saying is lets not create conjectures out of the silence and state them as fact multiple times.

phys.7689:

actually the truth is they took the large projects and moved them to the expansion.

We dont know for sure but I’d say this is part true. By their own admission they werent sure big updates (which they promised from day 1) would be rolled out as part of the living story or as part of an expansion so most likely big projects were developed in parallel with the living story that could either plug into it or bundled in an expansion.

phys.7689:

Story line: is essentially part of LS2 usually an expansion story explores a totally different storyline, because it is an expansion

The story continue after LS2, just like Gw2 continues after the events of EOTN. there is no rule that says they have to be unrelated!

phys.7689:

the zones, usually an expansion visits new zones, these ones are part of the maguma region, which is part of LS2

Again EOTN.

phys.7689:

Essentially what the expansion did is took all these background projects that were already in development, increased their scope, and grouped them together as an expansion. which is also why this expansion doesnt work that well as expansion, alot of its functionality needs to be incorporated into the base game.

The stuff incorporated into the core game is changes to the core mechanics. stuff like changes to traits, skills etc.. naturally if you ever make changes to such a system they have to be incorporated accross core game / expansions. You cannot have people who dont own expansion have 1 set of stats while those who do have another. That has nothing to do with the other features in the expansion much less how they fit together.

phys.7689:

masteries, HoT only, but they will effect fractal progression/power as well the core world

Its horizontal progression, you dont get it you have less options but that doesnt mean you will not be able to compete.

phys.7689:

guild halls, dont really work unless you let core people join guilds, this is a core system.

why? if you dont buy HoT you cant access your hall, why is that a problem? nothing the hall provides is mandatory!

phys.7689:

specializations, can work sort of separtely, but it required a complete revamp to the whole trait system,

why? lets assume they didnt intend to revamp the trait system, what was there to stop them from simply releasing a set of traits for the specialization that you simply would not have listed unless you have HoT?

phys.7689:

This is part of why they dont want to sell a core game at all, they will have enough problems already trying to deal with HoTs core systems.

no one can have HoT without having the core game. Giving away the game for free or not doesnt make any difference here.

phys.7689:

specializations: only one for now, but we ll add more!
guild halls: only 2 for now, but we ll add more
new legendaries: wont have every weapon for now, but we ll add more!
story: we plan to continue the living story for HoT users! (aka dont expect an extremely large story block on release)

there isnt one specialization there are 9. Each specialization is like a mini profession with 1 new weapon and 1 new heal, 4 new utilities and 1 new elite + 11 new traits. so its like 4 specializations are like one of the old professions. Which essentially means this expansion has the equivalent of 3 new professions. Thats pretty good for an expansion.

Guild halls there are only two huge zones, provide a variety of game play mechanics that we dont even fully know yet (they havent said anything about new guild missions, or challenging group content for the guild for example) but what we do know needed 8 full blog posts to explain. Hardly something one would call underwhelming.

New Legendary weapons, unless I missed something all they said was an I quote “For now, I’ll say that we’ve been working kitten new legendary weapons, the first handful of which will be introduced in Heart of Thorns, with more to come in subsequent updates.” that doesnt in anyway imply there will not be 1 legendary weapon for every weapon type. If they flat out said that please link the source.

As for the story all they said is the events in HoT take part right after the events of LS 2. I am not sure how in your mind that translates to “dont expect an extremely large story block on release” but we’ll see since they havent said a single thing about that yet.

phys.7689:

If they had a large block of content linked to the expansion ready for release 50 wouldnt be so bad.

we cant tell if thats the case until we know all that is included in HoT. So far what they have revealed taken on its own merit has been pretty sizeable so I have faith

Test.8734:

LOL.

People are still saying that. Amazing.

Before the Living Story began, we were not getting as many updates as we did it with (which is basically to say that we got barely any update at all). Ergo, if the more complex Living Story required a team of 20 people, what came before it would require even less.

Are we talking about the same game? cause before living story we got:
- shadow of the mad king
Which had 2 minigames, a dungeon, costume brawl, 5 jumping puzzles, 2 mini dungeons, 2 world events

- Lost shores
1 new map, 9 fractals, ascended gear, 1 pvp map, 2 new jumping puzzles, a bunch of new events

- Wintersday
2 mini games, a dungeon, a jumping puzzle, changes to WvW

Sure they were monthly updates not every 2 weeks but they were quite big, bigger then 2 living story season 1 events combined. Besides no one said before the living story everyone was working on the updates. Like I said its entirely possible they were split into a live team and a team working on the expansion. If anything I’d say more people were working on updates before living story was a thing, certainly not less.

Test.8734:

So… What do you think these other “310” people have been working since release? Are you going to say they have been working in the expansion for 3 years now? Wow, if in 3 years all they managed to make was 3 maps, they surely have some content problems.

The problem is your assumption that its just 3 maps, as its been pointed out numours times now Anet havent revealed how many maps there are. All they said is there are 3 biomes and personally I cannot understand how people expect a single map per biome when the core game has 5 maps per biome not counting the cities.

Test.8734:

Nope. The truth is, ArenaNet is poorly organized, so they have a lot of people yet produce very little. See the Glassdoor reviews – almost all of them mention management issues, how teams working in one thing are suddenly expected to make a 180° turn and throw away everything they had been working in.

and yet a smaller subset of that team (Anet were 270 at launch, they’re 350 now) created all the content that was there at launch. did launch somehow make people less efficient and the new resources slowed down everything?

Test.8734:

HoT has been under production for a bit more than one year now. It probably was under production since less than one year from when it was announced. That and ArenaNet’s slow speed explain why it has so little content after all.

based on what? the 20 people on the living world team isnt an assumption, its fact stated by Anet themselves, which begs the question what where the other 330 people working on between 2012-2014 if as you say the only started less then a year ago?

Gene Archer.8560:

And yet…the Witcher guys are pretty agile.
I still think it’s possible.

They’re pretty agile how? what exactly did CD Projekt Red do on the scale of changing the price of an item after it went for pre-order?

It took them 2 weeks to clarify they’re actually working on Cyberpunk 2077 after stating it was Witcher 3 until at least 2017 and thats only about issuing a statement no need to change anything or effect anyone! But maybe I missed something they did, can you share examples of what decisions they took within a couple of days that had implications to multiple departments?

Gene Archer.8560:

Sorry, I don’t buy this. Not with the megathreads of feedback that have popped up for various issues.

I assume you’re referring to mega threads you’re refering to past issues not this expansion fallout right? because obviously the expansion fallout has no bearing on weather arenanet did their homework before deciding stuff about the expansion. But thats perplexing because how exactly do you expect arenanet to know people would go ballistic over giving the core game away for free based on say the ascended armor reaction, or the NPE, or the trait changes? They’re completely unrelated! Of course one could argue they should have none people would rage because they kind rage for everything and sadly you’d even have a point but how does that help you decide anything?

Gene Archer.8560:

Well, two things there.
1) WoW also included a free level 90 character with even the standard editions.
2) This expansion is looking to go down as one of their worst.

1. they had to. Pandaria did really badly and considering in WoW every expansion depends on the previous if people didnt feel compelled to go through pandaria when it launched extremely good chances are they will not feel compelled to go through it when war lords launched. With instant level 90 they solve that problem. My personal theory of course but why else offer an instant level 90? its not like warlords released a new race / class that people might want to play directly in warlords. I may be totally wrong but from where I stand it seems they gave that more for themselves then a gift for their players.

2. that may be so but this too they couldnt have known before they launched it so even if this expansion doesnt do well it doesnt mean blizzard didnt take its decision based on the premise this would be the most successful expansion ever.

Gene Archer.8560:

Anet failed on the first point and I think we can all agree that ANet doesn’t want to emulate the second. And, well, just because WoW does it, and even can get away with it, doesn’t mean that it’ll work for ANet.

not necessarily if my paranoid theory is correct Anet actually did the same thing Blizzard did by giving away the core game for free. Its a present to players thats more of a present to themselves in actuality.

Gene Archer.8560:

(snipped for brevity, my apologies)

It’s how they went about it, if you ask me. (I.E. the FAQ change and general lack of info or release date) Also, Blizz isn’t a company that ANet should be looking at for emulation so far as I’m concerned. I also get the feeling that what people envisioned when it came to an expansion was more along of the lines of GW1 and their prices. Or so I assume. There’s also the general consensus that what we’re looking at is an expansion that’s really just a living story segment and some features being packed together.

But cant business change their mind ever? and doesnt offering everyone a refund more then makes up for the FAQ issue? as for people were expecting prices more in line with Gw1, doubt it considering that unless I am mistake the 2 campaigns sold for $50 while EOTN sold for $40

Gene Archer.8560:

If it would have fooled you as well, then you haven’t been paying attention to various threads.

I already explained how knowing people raged with NPE changes doesnt tell you people will rage if you charge $50 instead of $40 especially when there was no rage when you sold two campaigns for that price years before when strictly speaking $50 was more money.

Gene Archer.8560:

As a final thought, I get the feeling that on a very basic level, ANet is just, well, really bad at marketing and PR. Like, really, really bad. One might say horrible, even.

Perhaps, but the community does seem to be more sensitive then average too.

Belexes.4923:

You keep right on drinking the Kool-Aid! No refunds without permanent acct closure.

https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/27697743-Refunds

“Note: The refund process includes permanent closure of the Guild Wars 2 account. If you wish to continue to play Guild Wars 2, or if you desire to play in the future, you will need to purchase a new serial code and create a completely new account. Characters, names, items, and other features from the refunded account cannot be transferred to a new or different account. Not all serial code purchases will be eligible for a refund. No refunds will be given for any account that has been terminated for a breach of the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement.”

Its not Kool-aid, its actually correct. What you’re quoting is the general refund message. If you send them a support question regarding this specific issue they will send you a different message.

From the words of people who actually did it:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3aege1/a_follow_up_to_my_post_that_blew_up_out_of/

[–]BlobWatanabe 15 points 2 days ago
CONFIRMED! I just got a refund for my full-price core game purchase (which I bought only two weeks ago), purchased the HoT pre-sale, and my characters, progress, gem store purchases, etc. are all intact.
Here is the new response from support after getting the same one quoted by many people indicating that my account would be wiped:
Actually the code that you are requesting a refund will be permanently disabled. If you registered the code, all features, including game access, will be removed. If you haven’t used the code, the code cannot be registered. If you wish to repurchase the game or the expansion at a later date you will be able to pick up where you last left off by applying a new serial code. Your existing account will not be banned.
Thank you ArenaNet!