Guild Wars 2

Evans.6347:

Really, is the place to go there?
Aside from that little bit extra we pay for a game we also hand in a huge amount of our salary for those wonderful benefits. Seriously, what does this have to do with anything?

What I asked was simply “Why do we pay more for a couple of in-game trinkets like a minipet and decorations and a character slot, compared to the US”. Can you tell my why, instead of judging our social welfare?

Its getting out of point now so I will not get into detail, dont want to derail the topic. Suffice it to say Social benefits are finance through direct and indirect taxation. So yes Vat isnt the only way social benefits are financed its just one way.

I told you why because those trinkets are being sold to you and thus subject to VAT just like anything else.

BrooksP.4318:

This is the only reasonable “controversy” I see in regards to the new expansion. That being that when they started releasing information about HoT it was implied that it the base game would be separate. So those who bought Gw2 AFTER they announced HoT should get reduced cost or a off setting bonus.

They’re already doing that.

This is getting rediculous

I mean seriously what exactly would have changed for anyone?
seriously how did this effect you exactly?

Nike.2631:

Because you have real health care. Once you factor that in, paying a little more on complete frippery like an MMO expansion is just not something that’s gonna get you sympathy from this side of the pond .

Its not just free health care either! its free schooling, unemployment benefits, heavily subsidized / free training, free child care, paid leave, paid sick leave, potentially more.
might differ from country to country but there is a ton of stuff we get for free for that little extra we pay compared to US price but every single time it has to be a big deal.

Evans.6347:

Look, the problem I have is that the base game is priced lower, yet the extras are more expensive because for some reason an extra 5€ is suddenly charged, which seems to have no reason other than to grab more money. If it were taxes, then why aren’t they applied to the core game?

I’d like to know why it isn’t 44,99€ – 69,99€ and 94,99€ for Eurozone countries.

because the core game is free and thus you dont pay taxes on it?

serenke.4806:

darkdomino.9578:

Europeans pay more because you have VAT.

No, that’s not the reason. Us europeans have different VAT in different countries, yet we pay the same.

Thats because what companies generally do is register a european hq and charge vat based on the location where the company reside. I do believe the EU is trying to change that.

Mordalus.8146:

I’ve been a loyal GW2 patron since release. Even spending a small amount of cash on gems every month. Up until now, GW2 has been a great value. But I just refuse to spend 50 bucks plus on Silverwastes 2.0 and some LS updates. Twenty even twenty-five bucks? Yes. Fifty? Not on your life. The value is just not there. The amount of content appears to be very slim for such a high dollar figure.

Especially since I’ve been eyeing up ESO since it released. And now that it’s B2P and discounted, it seems like the better value. Also, most of its bugs have been fixed and it’s received a nice amount of polish as well as new systems. Many of the issues players have complained about are gone.

So I think I’ve off to Tamriel for a while. At least until HoT comes down to a more realistic price based on the small amount of content it appears to be delivering.

we have no clue how much content HoT has. we dont know how many maps there are, we dont know how many dynamic events there are, we dont know how many story line missions there are, we dont know if there are dungeons / fractals or even raids. how can you objectively make this statement "But I just refuse to spend 50 bucks plus on Silverwastes 2.0 and some LS updates. " ?

Catseye.3164:

People seem confused on maps. They said the maps would have 3 layers. They never said we only get 1 map with those 3 layers. Again. We don’t know.

actually its even worst then that, they said "made up of three distinct "biomes""
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns

people are translating that to mean 3 maps when in the core game a biome consists of 5 maps. of course there is nothing that says a biome means 5 maps, could be more could be less. We just dont know.

Randall.7306:

AMAdictus.7245:

The issue here isn’t about the price really. The issue here is that the way that Anet is presenting this expansion is greatly catered towards new players that will buy the game after the HoT pre-purchase announcement.

For the price of 50$, they will get the expansion plus a FREE bonus which is the core game. The existing players however will get no bonus whatsoever but will also be paying the same price of 50$.

This is really unfair towards the existing players especially those that have been supporting them for years. They should really treat their playerbase equally.

For me that’s the point, also.

This price setup shows us that existing players are something ANet doesn’t care.

It would have been easy to think in something in the lines of “if you add the key to an existing GW2 account, you receive x extra character slots instead of a new copy of core”

so in this way, both new users and existing users get something besides the expansion, in the currect way, only new users have a (huge) bonus, also, new users will have -for the same tag price that 1st wave users- new zones in which existing users that doesn’t buy expansion aren’t allowed to go. It feels like a “hey sucker! I entered the game years later than you, so now you’ve to pay extra to get as many stuff as me!”

Do you feel like Anet dont care about us veteran players when ever they do a 75% discount? cause if you stop to think about it this is really no different then Anet doing a 100% discount.

MashMash.1645:

Galen Grey.4709:

piza.9310:

This would apply if I would spend as much time with the expansion. But ATM, I might get 100 – 200 hours out of this? That’s 2 – 0.25$ per hour. With the summer sale going on… let’s see. Payed 15$ for Deus exe human revolution during last summer sale. 150 hours later… let’s calculate… 0.10$…. Well then, deus exe is below the maximum amount of play I get out of my money. We’re talking about an MMO right?

we dont even know what’s in the expansion yet how exactly can you tell how much play time you can get out of it?

And they still want us to shell out $$$$ based on no information.

Its a pre-order, no one is going to be penalized if they wait for more information. Its just some of us know we’re going to get it anyway. Anet is a busness and as such never says no to money thus a transaction is born.. we give them money early they give us the content when its done, some goodies if you want to pay more and beta access as a thankyou for paying early.

BrosefStalin.3475:

Galen Grey.4709:

Now if you were to argue that it would have been nice if already owning the game would mean you get something you can use such as a free character slot instead that would be a whole different argument and one which i feel would have a lot more merit to it.

That is essentially the heart of the argument of most people objecting. Already paying for the core on top of paying for the expansion for those of us beyond the refund period (prepurchased GW2 here) while new players get both for the expansion price. It leaves a bad taste in the early adopters’ mouths. Some form of good-will for being a customer before the past 30 days or whatever refund period they extend to now can be a character expansion slot for already owning the core game, gems to the tune of $10 or so, or a discount on the purchase price of the expansion itself. Something to make it easier to swallow the fact that people buying GW2 for the first time today or later get an insane deal in comparison. Most posts aren’t asking for a free expansion for owning the core already (due to the similar price for launch supporters), but some benefit, like a free character slot or discounted price by $10+, would make it more tolerable for veteran players.

I get what the complaint is about, my argument is that it may not be a reasonable complaint. companies try to entice new customers all the time. They do discounts, they give free stuff, they give incentives etc.. How is this any different then Anet giving a 75% discount on the game 3 years later? I as a veteran who pre-ordered the game do not get any benefit from that. I cannot say pay $10 to avail myself of that promotion and change it into 3200 because I already own the base game! The promotion is simply not targeted at me, its targeted towards new players. Same thing here, only instead of 75% discount its 100% discount. Like the 75% discount it doesnt benefit me, a veteran player but thats okey, its not targeted at me its targeted towards new players. No one expects Anet to give away free stuff to veteran players when they do a discount or any other incentive to get new players so why should this be any different?

That being said it would be nice if they rewarded loyalty and I do agree that an extra character slot isnt really an unreasonable request. I do agree they should do it to make everyone happy but not because they have to, they really dont, but rather because its the right thing to do.

MashMash.1645:

Galen Grey.4709:

darkdomino.9578:

Ladies and gentlemen, fanboyism in its rawest truest form.

There is so much we dont know so I ask again how can anyone judge value at this point? Surely you’re not going to argue that if HoT has 3 maps or if it has 15 maps it would still be considered to have the same value right?

I actually agree with this. It’s the lack of any information about the content, combined with give us your money that’s freaking annoying.

If the content warranted the $50, the fact that we vets are getting shafted wouldn’t bother me so much. But don’t sell me hype and expect me to shell out coin without some real information. Or lie to us for months on your FAQ’s and try to hide it -_-

If the complaint here was that pre-orders opened before full details have been released it would most certainly be a valid complaint. Its this whole “I am forced to buy the original game even though I already own it” and to a lesser extent the “its too small to warrant kitten price” that I have an issue with.

Lie is too heavy a word. People and companies change their mind all the time. Obviously you need the base game to play HoT that goes without saying. This whole free core game was probably a recent idea by someone who thought it may boost sales by getting people who dont own Gw2 to pre-order the expansion and it was a good idea in that regard because lets face it its much more enticing to pre-order something if you get something you can play right away rather then commit to buy something you dont even know when its going to release! Simply speaking it most likely wasnt a lie because most likely at the time it was written there wasnt the lets give out the core game for free with the expansion idea yet.

MashMash.1645:

Geneaux.9547:

I’ve got to get this off my chest.

-How can some of you look people in the eye and claim Arenanet is not giving you a whole lot of content(HoT specifically) when you haven’t played or experienced everything(and I mean EVERYTHING) that is this expansion offers, hmm? Do any of you have access to some leaked version of the full expansion or w/e? Enough with assumptions and back seat game development. You don’t work for Anet.
-The base expansion is $50. Ok, cool. Historically, most MMO expansions have been about $40-60. So how is this a problem? It’s because people keep equating whatever “value” the game has with games that aren’t even in the same genre: ie every game that doesn’t require an internet connection. They just don’t say it(probably because they dot understand the meaning of their words). Those games(usually) don’t ask for this level of pricing because they don’t have to continue developing content for it. People can continue to play those games well after the publisher and devs have moved on to other projects. MMOs(and MOBAs) don’t get this luxury.
-Yet naive individuals here will procrastinate on the “value” of the prices. There is no “value”. That’s a subjective emotion you make up for yourself to justify your purchase. And there’s nothing wrong with that. However, it holds not one kitten ounce of meaning as far as the quality of the expansion goes. We have reviews/reviewers for that.

The price of reason is steep.

/rant

At least we can still all agree that the real only valid argument here is that the standard edition does not come with a free character slot. As it should, at the minimum for people who bought the game very recently.

How can some of you look people in the eye and claim Arenanet is not giving you a whole lot of content(HoT specifically) when you haven’t played or experienced everything(and I mean EVERYTHING) that is this expansion offers, hmm?

That’s actually also an aggravating factor – we know sooooo little, yet they slam us with this “deal” ha!

I mean, if they had already laid out a ton of content I probably wouldn’t care, but we barely know how much and what we are getting. I don’t want to gamble thanks.

You know you dont have to buy it now right? Its okey to wait and learn more. In fact I’d say its the sensible thing to do.

Kysin.6349:

You don’t buy a sandwich and say “The cheese was 6$, but the rest of the sandwich was free”.

No but you dont buy a sandwich and complain you’re forced to pay for the napkin you’re given for free with your sandwich either. After all if you tell them you dont want the napkin they’re not going to discount the price for the sandwich because well its free!

Edit: added some clarifying detail

piza.9310:

This would apply if I would spend as much time with the expansion. But ATM, I might get 100 – 200 hours out of this? That’s 2 – 0.25$ per hour. With the summer sale going on… let’s see. Payed 15$ for Deus exe human revolution during last summer sale. 150 hours later… let’s calculate… 0.10$…. Well then, deus exe is below the maximum amount of play I get out of my money. We’re talking about an MMO right?

we dont even know what’s in the expansion yet how exactly can you tell how much play time you can get out of it?

as for your Deus ex, you payed $15, 4 years after release. orginally Deus Ex was sold for more then $49.99 and for the same amount of hours of game time.

tasha.4176:

Ew. What even is the point in making me pay for the core game again. Not to mention having to pay 25 more bucks for some junk I don’t care about and a character slot? which should come free with the expansion anyhow, considering the new profession. face desk hard Extremely conflicting.

Just cause people are calling it paying for the game again doesnt mean you’re paying for the game again.

I mean have you people never gone to the super market and came across an offer buy one get one free ? do they charge you twice for the one item? saying you’re being forced to buy an extra item to get the one item you’re after is wrong because you’re not, you’re still paying the same price you’d pay if you bought just 1 you’re just given one for free in order to incentivize you to buy and thats with a physical object that has a cost price. Giving a way a copy of the game free will cost Anet litterally nothing.

I dont imagine you can no.

truth is we just dont know. We have no idea how much content there is in HoT. There is still so much they haven’t revealed yet. We dont know how many maps there are we still didnt hear about the challenging content they’re putting in. We dont know how many masteries we’re getting. We dont know if we’re getting any dungeons / fractals / raids (though some masteries specifically for fractals might imply we may be getting some new fractals)

what we do know we’re definitely getting in addition to some unknown number of maps and guild halls is a new WvW map, adventures, masteries, new pvp game mode, a new profession, a new weapon for every other profession and a new specialization for every profession including the new profession. Additionally while not exactly new we’re getting a complete rework of skills and abilities including how they’re unlocked.

Is it worth $50 for what was shown so far probably not but like I said there is more that they havent shown which might tip the scale. I am especially curious about the new challenging group content

anyway here’s what we know so far in detail:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns

Weylin.6478:

If you’re a newcomer, you’re getting an entire game, and 4 character slots, for $50
If you’re a veteran, you’re getting an upgrade to the game you already have, for $50

Now, to look at this another way, imagine you bought a 10 piece cooking set for $40 a few months ago. It’s nice, has a lot of features, you had a fair few meals prepared with it.
They’ve been advertizing and hyping a future addition to this set which adds 4 new pieces and really opens up the culinary possibilities, a lot of people want it, and are expecting to just buy the new pieces for something like $20 or so, after all, it’s just an extension to a set they already have…

Then comes the release date, and the entire 10 piece set, PLUS the 4 new pieces goes up for sale, bundled together, for $50. It’s a steal if you’re late to the party, you’re paying what the others did a month ago + $10 for a bunch of stuff they never got.

But oh, what’s that? There’s no option to just buy the 4 extra pieces? What do those customers do who already have the main set of 10 do? Exchange it for the new set and still pay $50?

I don’t know how else to illustrate how much of an unfair rip-off this is…

There’s just one big problem with your analogy. the 10 piece cooking set you bought have a cost price. No business wants to loose money so when they’re selling you the new 14 piece set that includes the old 10 they need to at least charge that cost price which you’re right would make it a rip off if there is no way to buy those 4 pieces seperately. Gw2 isnt a physical product though its a digital item which technically means giving away a free copy has no cost price associated with it. Ergo they can bundle it without making you pay a single cent for it. (just look at all the free to play games out there as an example of business giving away software for free)

But if you want more proof just look around at new expansions for other games coming out soon. They’re all charging $49.99 for the expansion and in some cases $10 more if you want the base game with that.

This we get to pay for the base game even though we already own it isnt a real issue because like they stated you’re not paying for the base game at all, if you dont have it you’re getting it free of charge. Now if you were to argue that it would have been nice if already owning the game would mean you get something you can use such as a free character slot instead that would be a whole different argument and one which i feel would have a lot more merit to it.

Evans.6347:

First of all, this is not about whether or not the price for an expansion is too much. I’m also not going to focus on conversion rates, because that’s probably not how this all works.

However, I would like to know why we Europeans have to pay you extra for the same fluff you add in the Deluxe and Ultimate editions.

In dollar the pricing is 49,99$ – 74,99$ and 99,99$. In euro you correctly price the base expansion at 44,99€, but then price both the Deluxe and Ultimate editions at 74,99€ and 99,99€ euro.

Please tell my why we have to pay an additional 5 euro for this content?

actually for once we’re paying less $99.99 currenly exchanges to 88.82 Euro assuming an average vat rate of 18% then that adds another 16 Euro to 104.82 euro. We’re saving 5 Euro if you buy the ultimate that is.

Its also worth mentioning Gw2 isnt your typical MMO.. you dont have to feel forced to play in a level 80 map because you’re level 80. Goes without saying that if a particular map design is something you dont enjoy you simply dont have to play it. Thats part of what makes this game stand out. Nothing is mandatory. (well provided you’re not into the bio lumen armor set… thats essentially the only thing that makes dry top mandatory)

As for the expansion we dont know yet unfortunately what was shown so far seems to indicate there is quite a bit of vertical mobility but we dont know how accessible regular content is without jumping. What I mean is mushroom jumping might be just required for optional content (like Achievements and such), could very well be the case you can do the whole story without touching one of those fungi dudes at all.

We’ll have to see when Anet releases more info.

Rebound.3409:

No..for an mmo and for the CONSTANT demands and expectations of an mmo that IS a micro team. For a single player that’s an OK team…but even then not that big.

Its not… 300 – 350 people is actually one of the largest MMO teams I am aware off.

I have no idea how OP got this impression, I’d say the opposite is true, the game started way to easy and is now finally starting to implement harder content. Dont get me wrong its not nearly as hard as I would personally like but certainly harder then what we used to have.

Yes they made a lot of changes for new players but also changed course in targeting new content to exclusively at veteran players.

Living story season 2 / HOT are level 80 exclusively while season 1 was for all levels.

Living story season 2 achievements are actually quite hard even for a veteran player.

The modrem are actually a little challenging. Soloing in the new zones requires players to be more mindful then any other zone in the game.

is it enough? of course not 2 zones even though well designed is not something that will keep you going indefinitely but 2 things.

1. just that they exist and were designed the way they are designed proves that Anet didnt “abandon” veteran players like OP says

2. They’ve also be working on an expansion that designed the same way with the same challenge level. Once thats released we’ll have much more content and naturally most of it will be Open world.

RNG is RNG if it didnt behave wierdly now and again it wouldnt be working correctly.

Just look at real life.

a 100 year old person who’s been playing the lottery every single time isnt more likely to win the next lottery then the person who is going to play his first ticket. If that new person wins it doesnt mean life’s RNG favours new accounts.

Just look around, you’ll find stories of people winning the lottery numerous times. Even one story when one couple won the lottery 3 times in one month! And we’re talking guessing 5 numbers here each time.

there are many stories of people winning 2 lotteries in their life time and infinitely more of people who just never won a jackpot in their life.

The nature of randomness is that sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you get unlucky. Odds are what determines how often you get lucky and how often you get unlucky. Naturally Odds are such that people are much more likely to be unlucky so when we see someone get lucky or even when we get lucky ourselves we’re so used to loosing that it automatically feels like there is something wrong.

As for loot distribution. There is no loot distribution, there is the luck of a draw. Each time you kill / loot something A few random numbers determine if you should get a draw and what that draw is. Randomness isnt trying to be politically correct and provide an equal chance to anyone.

Lets for example assume there are just 2 players and a precursor chance to drop is 1 in 1000.

both players start farming mobs. they both kill 1000 mobs each only player 2 gets 2 precursors and player 1 gets nothing.

Is the random number generator broken?

no… the odds stipulate that ever 1000 killed mobs a precursor should drop. The odds are global though not tied to a player. Who gets the lucky roll every 1000 rolls or so is still well random for a lack of a better word. Now player 1 might say he has an unlucky account for he killed 1000 mobs and never got a drop while his friend got 2 by killing 1000 mobs like he did but that doesnt mean he’s right does it?

There are some things people need to understand here.

An MMO needs to provide goals to people. Its simply not going to work if at some point people have nothing new to earn. Sure some dedicated players may still play but most would quit if there is simply nothing new they want.

With that in mind its just not feasible to have everything easily earn-able within a play sessions or two. going with 7 armor pieces and 6 weapons per character on average thats about 13 cosmetic pieces per character which at a couple of days each would provide you with a month of game-play per alt.

Sure new things would be release now and then but how many would be a better fit than something you already have?

Could any MMO survive if you get to a point when there is nothing you desire anymore?

Simply speaking you need to make each item last way more then a couple of days. What people seem to mix is if something takes a long time to earn it doesnt automatically mean its grindy.

Grind is by definition something that requires repetition and is unenjoyable by the player. What Anet did to avoid that is literally allow you to play anything you desire to get that reward you’re after.

Sure the quickest way to that reward is repeating boring activities. But the shortest way isnt the only way. There are as many ways to get to that reward as there are things to do in this game. No developer can ever remove grind by making it very easy to earn every reward the game has to offer because those rewards cannot be replenished fast enough in anycase.

The only thing they can do is make sure you dont have to repeat boring gameplay to get them and thats exactly what Gw2 did masterfully. The only thing you need to do is slow down. These are cosmetic rewards, you will not be penalized if it takes you 2 months to earn something that could take you as little as a week if you grinded.

The choice is yours.

Astralporing.1957:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

You understand that those things you consider optional is what many people prefer to do / go for and the things you see as important (like the LS) might be things other people don’t care for.

I am not sure if the problem is I am not being clear enough or you’re purposefully misquoting what I am saying from some reason. So lets try this again for the third time. What I am calling optional isnt the items or acquiring items, or even any choice of play style. What I am calling optional is THE GRIND.

What you are not understanding is that everything in the game is optional. Nobody’s forcing you to even level your characters after all – you can stay at level 1 and play only TP if that’s what you like (and there are people that do exactly that). So saying that grind is optional doesn’t actually mean anything. So what? It’s still a grind.

granted english is a second language for me but man am I really that hard to understand.

here we go again. I will try to put this a simple as I can.

My argument is not item X is optional like you seem to have understood?

my argument is earning item X through grind is optional. you can also earn item X through non-grindy means

I will keep it this simple in the hopes I dont get misunderstood because I elaborated too much on what I am trying to say. If you need more details ask and I will provide.

Devata.6589:

I did show how it would work out (in the previous topics) with numbers, calculations and comparing it with GW1’s numbers. And it showed that it was likely that yearly expansion would have earned Anet more money by now. A change I suggested because of the business impact these suggestions to prevent grind would have, as the cash-shop will always be a huge reason for grind and so there would be no or less place for it anymore.

Its nice to look at trends and all that but you also need to look at all the numbers and not nit picking the ones that tell your story.

Yes Releasing expansions gives you a peak, we all know that.
Peaks in Gw1 were small though about 1/4 what gw2 generates in a quarter on average. In the first year of release Gw2 did more money then Gw1’s live time. Naturally thats because Gw2 is on the whole more popular but the why it is more popular is just as important.

ohh and also quite importantly and I almost forgot… You state Gw1 and lack of cash shop focus as a factor of eliminating grind which is perplexing because Gw1 had the same issue with grind you mention. Getting some of those cosmetic armors required as much hard work as getting some cosmetics in gw2 does.

Devata.6589:

You understand that those things you consider optional is what many people prefer to do / go for and the things you see as important (like the LS) might be things other people don’t care for.

I am not sure if the problem is I am not being clear enough or you’re purposefully misquoting what I am saying from some reason. So lets try this again for the third time. What I am calling optional isnt the items or acquiring items, or even any choice of play style. What I am calling optional is THE GRIND.

You want a Corrupted Staff? you can do it your way of playing forget about gold and go directly for corrupted lodestones because you enjoy working towards an item and not gold. Fair enough you should get 1 every 1 – 2hrs. You could kill mobs for 60hrs if you like that. I may find that a grind. I have 2 options… grind the gold necessary by grinding for a few hours and get the gold I need quickly or go spend a couple of weeks playing stuff I enjoy playing and earn the 21g I need that way. Grind or No Grind is my choice. Thats what optional grind means. You want to grind and get what you want quickly? you can do that. You dont want to grind and are willing to wait longer for your reward? you can do that too. The choice is yours.

“If I like to hunt down cosmetics, the only way to do it, is to grind. "

Grind is your option. No matter what it is you’re hunting down there are several non grindy ways to get them. You choose to ignore them. If not please let me know what it is you’re hunting that you see no way of acquiring without grinding. and please add whats specifically you have trouble with.

“What is bad for you depends on what you prefer to do. "

I am only after cosmetics myself actually… over 8 characters I have only like 4 pieces of ascended gear simply because one time I joined a guild high level fractal run and needed quickly some AR. So dont assume that this is an issue effecting only people who like cosmetics.

“Wait, so because you like to do the LS that is a ‘need’ while the cosmetics isn’t.”

Again misunderstanding or misquoting…
First of all this wasnt about LS, LS was just an example used… it was about content locked behind gear scoring. Let me use cosmetics as an example instead of LS maybe you’ll understand me better. Say you’re after Hymenoptera. And we use the same example.. Drytop access is locked behind a gear score you can only get after fully gearing a char in ascended gear. Now getting Ascended gear would be a mandatory grind for you because until you get that the game would just as well be death for you. you have no way of playing what you want (working towards Hymenoptera) as well as if you’re playing with friends perhaps the longer you take to finish of your ascended gear the further behind you’ll fall. .. Actually falling behind because now after the amberite weapon there is SW and the bio lumen armor. Your friends already had an ascended gear set and while you were busy getting yours they got their amber weapons and moved on to SW. And while you’re busy getting your Hymenoptera they’ll finish of the Bio armor and move to what come next and you’ll never play with them again (dramatic moment ). Get the difference between optional and mandatory grind?

With mandatory grind system like gear scores, you’re forced to keep up. take a 6 month break and you’re guaranteed to never be able to play with your friends ever again. With the optional grind system like we have it doesnt matter. If your friends decide to go the grindy way and get their biolumen armor in a record breaking 2 day and it takes you the no grind phylosophy person 6 months you dont suffer any consequences you can still join them in whatever they do, you’re no behind on anything and every single day you’re still free to play what you want including temporary switch to a different cosmetic item for a change of scenery with 0 consequences.

“not really, many ‘special’ cosmetics are a grind.”
No true, only the rare stuff like lion tickets skins are a grind. everything else with very few exception sell for less then 10g on tp how is getting 10g a grind?

Also no true. Some examples.. Neverwinter locked releases behind gear scores. most pvp in mmos is dependant on that gear, Gear often mean whether you get a spot in a dungeon run.

“I completely understand what you are trying to say, but the problem is that it really does matter on what you prefer.”

what people are trying to say here is that here you dont have a grind for the things you like to do at all, you have an optional grind. You can grind if you choose to but there are plenty of ways for you to get the reward you’re interested in without grinding at all.

Fernling.1729:

The no grind philosophy presented in things like the manifesto went out the window with the introduction of ascended gear. Even Colin himself confirmed as much in the last thread that shared the same name as this.

Correction, Colin said the manifesto statement stating a player should have the highest statistical gear by the time they reach 80 was changed not the no grind philosophy.

Devata.6589:

With the first part you completely dismiss the fact that hunting down such items is the preferred game-play for many.. that is for them ‘playing the game’ however, that must then not be a boring grind.

There is no item you ‘need’ there is no grinding you ‘need’. There are only goals and those goals might have challenging content to unlock those goals or have a never ending boring grind.

“While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice.” Also this is purely a theoretically truth. If you would play like this (while again, completely dismissing that hunting down items is the preferred game-play for many) you would hopelessly run behind. New items you might also like get added every month. So collecting is them already completely out of the question. But even only going for the ones you prefer the most will be a unrealistic task, if you add an item to your list of ‘things you want’ once every two month you would only run more and more behind. Not to mention that if a goal is to far away people also lost intrest.

In you first example of how you talk about getting an item without grinding you come to 2 – 5 months. So that would be 3,5 months on average. So if you started to collect such items at release you would soon (3 years later) be able to get your 10th item. (And personally I do not get 3 rares a day but that’s also because I do not play a lot at the moment. Hoping for better times with HoT)

Theoretically it’s all nice, currency

I am not dismissing it, I am saying that this optional grind never blocks you from pursuing your target unlike how mandatory grind blocks you from playing what you want to play.

You’re wrong. Lets assume Gw2 did what many other MMOs do and locks content behind gear scores. So lets say to start Season 2 of the Living story I need to gear fully in ascended. I am a person who values story the most so naturally I am keen to experiance Season 2 the moment it launches but alas I cant, i need to finish off my Ascended gear. I dont have a single piece so its going to take me months Suddenly Ascended gear is not longer something that would be nice to have it becomes a need. Without it I am locked out from the game essentially cause I am no longer ever going to have my story fix until I complete the set. Further more which is probably even worst I cannot afford to fall season behind, part of the fun is to speculate where the story is going to identify the little details and all of that so I cannot really afford to fall seasons behind which makes this not only a grind I cannot avoid but a grind that I have to force myself to endure without a break.

Thats night and day to what we have… yes It still will take me months to get a vision of the mists or a corrupted staff etc.. But they’re never a need and thus I have several ways to avoid the grind on my way to the cosmetic goodness. Every day I login I have a grand many choices on how I am going to reach my target. I am free to go the slow but enjoyable way without any consequences which I just dont have with the mandatory grind for the reasons I mentioned.

Ehh no its not because thats exactly what I do and So far I have 5 characters geared exactly how I want with 3 more being worked one and 2 that have yet to start. Yes new gear is being constantly being released but not all will be applicable to your characters. Further more now with the wardrobe you only need to unlock something once essentially. 2ndly there is no fall behind because there is no restriction. You will never be cut from any content / playing with your friends because you lack some cosmetic so you’re falling behind compare to who / what exactly?

Dont forget we’re talking about the rarest of the rare stuff here. Things like Vision of the Mists and other named exotics that are meant to be a status symbol more then anything else. 10 items in 3 years means an average of 3 items per year. That seems pretty good enough for something thats meant to say I am super awesome. Plenty of cool skins you can get in a couple of days using the same method.

Devata.6589:

“One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional.”
Sure, you could also put it like this. Then the grind for cosmetics would still be the same as the other types of grind. Both being ‘required’. I don’t really care if you consider it required or not, my point was that there basically are the same. Both not required or both required is not the point. If it’s bad is personal.

I think you’re mistaken the statement required grind with required reward

I am not saying you have to give up on a reward just because it is a cosmetic I am just saying you dont have to grind for it (even though of course you could should you choose to)

Lets take vision of the mists that takes 250 ecto as an example. you could buy the ecto for 32s each thats 80g more or less. You could hardcore farm silverwastes and for you that might mean a few hours of grind. Or I could simply just play my game, do what I want. depending on what you do you choose to do you’ll get a few rares a day… lets say an average of 3. I could sell those which will likely give me enough to buy 4 ecto or I can salvage them which depending on my luck will give me an average of 2-5 ecto. Just with that I can get my reward in 2 – 5 months of 0 grind. (of course you could also cut this down further if you use some of the other stuff you earn you dont have to limit yourself to rares).

But in other MMOs that have mandatory grind I dont have that luxury. In MMOs that for example limit content access behind gear score, or armor tier etcs.. I cannot afford to take it easy. Taking 5 months to get a single piece of gear would mean that by the time I am done getting my gear score I would be 2 – 4 releases behind being cut unable to play with my friends anymore.

Devata.6589:

“as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck.”
And my primary goal might be getting some cosmetics (collecting them is ‘playing the game’ for me) while your primary goal might be doing the highest level raids.

Even here there is a big difference. While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice. Taking a break from the grind isnt really stopping for pursuiting my goal its just making it take a little longer. But in the case of mandatory grind, If I need tier 10 super duper armor of doom that only drops from the raid of champions in order to access the new zone and I take a break from raiding I am not progressing an inch. whats more I am doomed to play the same old content even if the devs might be busy pumping out new stuff every single day (yeah they’re that good) ! The more time I refuse to grind the worst it gets for me.

Simply speaking grind isnt optional in that you can just simply forget about the reward because you dont need it. grind is optional because you can go about in different ways to get your reward and also above all cause that reward is not crucial for anything. So getting in 5 hours or 5 months isnt really any different.. well perhaps 5 months might even be considered a little better since it increases the longevity of the game because if what you want is to go after cosmetics what happens after you acquire all those that you want?

PistolWhip.2697:

To answer your questions:

Yes I have been kicked before for being new, yes I have been kicked before for not having the right build, and guess what? That is perfectly fine. They had every right to do so as it was their party. I just learned the ropes and moved on. So yes it is okay and well within reason. If he has to teach newer players then it is only fair he is compensated? Right? Right? Isn’t that the very nature of a transaction? To earn profit for your efforts?

No the nature of team play is not to carry and teach. The nature of team play is cohesiveness, familiarity and being ABLE to rely on one another’s ability because a trust is formed. None of which is present within interactions with new players. The act of teaching newer players is rewarding in another sense, but not within the cornerstones of team play. That is why none of the ‘top’ PvP teams have new players cycling in every week because they are practicing with their old familiar friends and players to better their TEAM PLAY.

now imagine if every one acts like that. you join a group, get kicked, join another, get kicked again, another get kicked again. Until you get “lucky” and find a group of completely new players. How would that run go? plenty of wipes and no one teaching you what you’re doing wrong.. so there is no growth and next time you’re going through all this cycle… until eventually you get fed up and quit.

On the other side there are the vets who stick together only vets dont play a game forever. some quit, some take a break, some move on to another game. The pool gets smaller and smaller and no new players are replacing the vets that stop playing because we have segregated them. Until one day it starts getting bad. its hard to find a party without a long wait so one fine day they decide perhaps its worthed to let new players in the party and teach them only by now so many have quit out of frustration and the game is a shell of its former self.

Was it worthed?

Her aim was to finish off the instance. That they’re helping her doing it is already compensation. By helping them understand how to perform better they’ll finish her off quicker… isnt that also compensation? Next time she goes for it she might get them in her party again and now they’re even better from what they learned and practiced in the meantime.. isnt this also compensation ?

Above everything else she would most likely have actually finished the instance instead of having to start from scratch… more compensation.

not really. You dont always get to team up with people you’re familiar with. as for cohesiveness and trust, yes most certainly but you dont foster those values by essentially telling people they dont know what they’re doing and should listen just to what you say instead. As a matter of fact if you look up how to set up effective teams a few common suggestions are to share knowledge, give everyone a chance and top above all is no ego.

PistolWhip.2697:

You are completely misunderstanding everything going on here and evidently are in too much of a flurry to reply to even read.

She asked them to get heavies BECAUSE when given the chance they proved UNABLE to play with the squishier lighter classes. This also coincided with the fact she found out they were new, and she suggest they get their heavy classes AFTER this fact. So you’re so wrong here it isn’t even relevant.

Once again, the example you gave in PvP makes no sense because the important part isn’t heavies. In PvP a better example would be that your team is losing due to someone’s ineffective build and you ask them, (not shout or even demand as OP and his friend suggested) to bring something more meta and viable, like D/D Ele, Shoutbow, Cele Engi etc. This does happen and to newer players sometimes it ends up teaching them a new meta spec so as long as it is a polite transaction there is no issue.

And no I can pick and choose who I play with, as can OP as can you. That is why the block function exists. No one is obligated to play with everyone. If you think I’m going to carry some lazy new players that don’t take my advice you’re sorely mistaken, they go on my block list so I can filter them out faster than anyone else. In fact, people who are rude, or trolls don’t bother me as much as these guys who want to just be carried by Vets.

As long as I am not going out of my way to harass anyone, I am certainly allowed to ignore and refuse to play with them provided I keep it cordial, and respectful in the interaction. I.E “Sorry you aren’t quite what our party needs, good luck finding another though!”

With all due respect its you who are wrong on the sequence of events.

They joined, she asked them to get heavies, they kicked her off the party, tried the instance without her, failed, gave up. She didnt ask them to get heavies after they proved they couldnt handle the instance in light, she asked them to change the moment they joined. I would have been fine with all of this if she only suggested heavies once they were having issues but she did not, she asked before they were given a chance to prove themselves in anyway.

Again, * your team is losing due to someone’s ineffective build and you ask them* thats perfectly fine but what happened here isnt like that at all. someone joined the team before the match even started you ask them to change, even if done politely with no shouting thats still not okey.

Somehow I doubt the block function was designed to protect vets from new players rather then from abusive trolling players

Devata.6589:

Required grind does not exist in a game because a game is optional. A lot of people say WoW is one of those grindy games because you ‘had to grind’ to do the highest level raids.

One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional. If you’re not interested in playing the game then the whole grind argument is superfluous.

It only becomes relevant when you actually want to play the game which is where mandatory or optional grind becomes an issue. Do I have to grind in order to play the game? Yes / No… Its a problem were as If I dont follow a specific grind at some point in time I will be prevent from playing anything further the game has to offer. Kinda like a paywall but with grind rather then money.

How is optional grind different then mandatory grind ?

as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck. Imagine having to get a full set of nightmare armor and weapons until you’re allowed in drytop for example and until you get to drytop and get full set of amberite weapons you cannot get to silverwastes which in turn until you get a full set of biolumen armor you cannot move on to heart of thorns.

I want to get to drytop, I want to experience the living story but unless I stick to the torture it will be impossible to ever play with my friends again. I have no choice I need to stick to the schedule and keep up.

lets compare this with actually getting nightmare court armor set, amberite weapons and biolumen armor with it being a requirement for anything. essentially its the same thing but from a game experience point of view its night and day. I do a couple of runs of TA and take a break, go farm a little dry top for those fossils… nahh but I dont feel like it today so let me go work a bit towards the biolumen armor but hey this all getting old so off I go exploring some old zones for something I missed or go level up a new alt with a friend and hey one night guild is organizing a TA run and are 1 down… lets go.

so yes required grind most certainly exists we all play a game an invest so much time in a game cause we want to play that game. grind that prevents you from playing said game is most certainly required grind and you cannot stop the grind or it will become impossible to catch up which ultimately turns the mmo into a single player game for the most part making it very hard for you to catch up with your buddies and thus forever segregating you from them unless you put in an inhuman level of grind to make up for the “slaking” or the game is kind enough to eventually put in some catch up system.

none.9681:

Well, in Necro’s case, they couldn’t be bothered with getting some new ingredients from store, so they just took the rotten meat, leftover fish and the occasional chunk of banana or pineapple and put it all in a mixer.

Thing is the Necro is severely underestimated in my opinion. If you look at the necro from a survivability point of view rather then a DPS point of view the necro is a powerhouse.

It has the most HP, it has an extra life bar, it has an elite that boosts his health for a while. It (at least used to haven’t checked the new changes yet) to have essentially perma Regen + now with parasitic contagion you also get extra hp with conditions that a necro excels at spreading around. So yeah hopefully these new changes will stir people towards these exotic but delicious flavour that a lot of people ignored that made for excellent necro banana splits.

tramwajarz.2369:

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

It is a gamble only because there is no party system. There should be. People who open parties should be protected and have control over their parties.

why should starting a team put you above the rules? cant someone who started a party be as abuse as someone joining the party?

if we had no abuse problem we wouldnt need a kick in the first place after all.

Because opening a party is like opening a room for other people, if they join and don’t match the rules of the party, they should be kicked. If they feel like they want to be bosses they can make their own room and lead other.

There are people who like to lead, there are those who like to follow. People are not equal, time to leave rainbow pony dimension some people think they live in.

so should we dump elections and hand over the presidency to the first person who opens the door first? You want to lead, lead if your party is okey with that. But just like in this instance if you abuse your leadership the people will boot you out of office the first chance they get. And btw last I checked governments don’t exile people / organizations for not performing to their desired level they find a way to help them to get to the level they wish. It would be preposterous for any government to fix economic deficit by killing off those business who perform bad. On the contrary they try to find a way to help them out.

So sure, people are not equal but this has nothing to do with rainbow pony dimensions. The human race has not gotten to where it has gotten by restricting knowledge to the elite few. We got to were we got by actually trying to improve the base level knowledge across the board. We were all newbies once even the champion of champions. You may carry them today but tomorrow they might carry you.

tramwajarz.2369:

It is a gamble only because there is no party system. There should be. People who open parties should be protected and have control over their parties.

why should starting a team put you above the rules? cant someone who started a party be as abuse as someone joining the party?

if we had no abuse problem we wouldnt need a kick in the first place after all.

tramwajarz.2369:

New players are already being kicked with rangers and necros alike. And answer for them would be the same as it is now – create your own “everybody welcome” group.

You act like there are 5 new players or that veterans are obligated to cater to them Knowledge bomb – they don’t have to, it’s not my job to carry a new player. I learned the game by myself and I don’t want to waste my time teaching others. There are people willing to teach and share knowledge, more power to them. It’s their choice to do so as my choice is to avoid and kick new/bad players on sight.

Of course it is your job to cater to new players. Thats the whole point of a team.. you help them out. A team isnt made up of tools you can use just to get what you personally desire. If you decide to PUG you know fully well its a gamble sometimes you get good people, sometimes you get inexperienced people, once they’re in your team, they’re in your team and you have to care for them for better or for worst. Thats the fair and the right thing to do.

Or are you going to claim that if 3 players who are more experianced then you join your team you’re okey with them kicking you out if they feel they dont want to teach / carry you? Would you feel what you want to do to others is okey if it happens to you?

Ultimately you have to remember that you’re playing in an MMO… MMOs are about people not individuals. If you want to have a specific version of party, you’re free to do that but it is something you have to do and not something the game has to support because excluding people based on whatever goes against the very nature of team play. If anyone has to go out of their way to get what they want it should be people who want to restrict and not like you suggest the new players who all they want is to play with others and have fun which is the very target MMOs try to accomplish.

tramwajarz.2369:

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

The amount of self entitlement to steal other people progress, ignore their requirement and demanding of being carried for new players is amazing. No wonder this game is growing a bias of the worst community in every MMO. So called casual (lazy) people in this game have no respect for other people efforts. They steal, abuse and dare to call people who put an effort in their play to be elitists. They don’t care to learn how combat works or ask how to defeat a boss. They just come into instance and expect to be rewarded.

This is where the designers of this game failed. With their design they punish people who actually make this game easier for scrubs yet reward kitteners who expect everything to be given on silver plate.

New generations of players are [insert you favourite insults, they’ll fit]

Not a single person has said anything much less pushed for stealing progress. I am sorry but what you’re trying to do is twist what happened into a narrative that is trying to justify the person creating the party acting inappropriately.

What you are doing mister is trying to absolve obvious abusers and make OP look bad. This is suspicious.

what abuse obvious or otherwise did they do exactly? They kicked OP before OP kicked them, It was an ugly move sure but justifiable.

tramwajarz.2369:

reapex.8546:

AP being a requirement isn’t a good fix imo. Anet has stated, they would rather not segregate their dungeon community and this is one of the reasons why we don’t have Hard Mode dungeons (like in GW1).

Ap measure is stupid, I agree.
But as I wrote earlier there should be a requirements filter (similar to TP filter maybe?) where you choose dungeon path, level, profession, gear rarirty and maybe gear prefix (however I dunno about last one because some people mix gear) so only people that fill the req can see LFG

Please consider the consequences of what you’re asking for. This would at best create long queue times for new players, at worst make it impossible for them to find a group for a dungeon.

People who like to play a necro/ranger will find it hard to find a group.

What about people who dont go for ascended gear or maybe not even full exotics?

This change will drive people away! and for what? so that people get to finish a dungeon a few minutes quicker?

If you want a specific set of filters for your team create your own group. The LFG tool is there so people can find other people to play with. Restricting their pool based on filters would make the system worst not better.

tramwajarz.2369:

The amount of self entitlement to steal other people progress, ignore their requirement and demanding of being carried for new players is amazing. No wonder this game is growing a bias of the worst community in every MMO. So called casual (lazy) people in this game have no respect for other people efforts. They steal, abuse and dare to call people who put an effort in their play to be elitists. They don’t care to learn how combat works or ask how to defeat a boss. They just come into instance and expect to be rewarded.

This is where the designers of this game failed. With their design they punish people who actually make this game easier for scrubs yet reward kitteners who expect everything to be given on silver plate.

New generations of players are [insert you favourite insults, they’ll fit]

Not a single person has said anything much less pushed for stealing progress. I am sorry but what you’re trying to do is twist what happened into a narrative that is trying to justify the person creating the party acting inappropriately.

Subutex.2416:

Galen Grey.4709:

Of course so is what they did not saying they acted correctly by kicking her out.

But that’s what this thread is about. This mechanic allows for people to do this and it shouldn’t, he should not lose his instance progress.

The thread is about the party mechanic being unfair and its not. Starting the party / doing progress doesnt make you immune to the rules. If you act inappropriately the kicking mechanic allow members of the party to defend themselves. There is nothing unfair about that.

Subutex.2416:

Galen Grey.4709:

Subutex.2416:

Galen Grey.4709:

Its like your car breaks down and you need a lift to somewhere but when someone offers to take you, you tell them to get a different type of car. (not a perfect analogy since naturally those 3 benefited from helping him more then someone giving you a lift would benefit) but still they’re helping him out and without help he is likely stuck. Why should he be entitled to any special treatment? (demanding stuff / Untouchable)

He would still be able to choose if he wanted to go in that car or not with that person (unlike LFG system) and it would be perfectly fine and normal if the driver went on his way leaving him behind. Picking him up, driving him all the way back to where he started, then leaving him there is not alright.

He could still chose to not use the LFG tool at all or even to leave the party. Also they didnt drive him back anywhere, they simply told him to get out once he acted in appropriately which is perfectly fine. Its the nature of the game that when you get off you’re sent at the start, not the action of the players themselves.

Did you even read the part where he duoed the instance until Lupi and was kicked by 3 jerks who joined him after, who didn’t do kitten?

Yes I did but I dont see why it should change things. It was her choice to start the pug at lupi rather then at the start. Would it be any different if say someone starts a pug at the start and then at lupi asks them to change to heavies or leave? wouldnt in that case the 3 asked to leave be in their rights to actually defend themselves?

Dont forget that rule number 1 in the code of conduct is
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/
“While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game.”

Asking people to play your way or leave is at the very least against the spirit of that rule.

Of course so is what they did not saying they acted correctly by kicking her out.

All I am saying is this could probably have been avoided if no demands were made for players to play the way OP wanted rather then how they wanted to play themselves.

ProtoGunner.4953:

I never had issues with this since I am running dungeons almost exclusively with guildies. But I see the issues and I just wonder why they didn’t implement the 10 year old system in WoW where there is ONE party leader who can decide to kick and if he leaves the next one gets it. It’s so much easier and would prevent everything mentioned here.

for the same reason why they increased the kick vote from 2 to 3 because that opens up the possibility of abuse like the party leader kicking a pug right before the end to give the credit to a guildy, friend or also stranger who pays him for the privilege.

Hannelore.8153:

A majority vote is actually pretty fair. If you don’t want that to happen, then invite two friends to come along with you so that they can never get three votes.

The real problem here is that dungeons are badly designed. Players should always get rewarded whether they completely finish a dungeon or not, based upon how much progress they made through the dungeon. In other words, it should be a guaranteed reward based upon damage taken, damage dealt, support level (damage mitigated/healed on allies), mobs killed, bosses killed, and areas cleared.

NOT skip all mobs, cheese all encounters and get the prize.

But ArenaNet will never implement such a system because they don’t know how to balance it so that it doesn’t get abused. So they just avoid it instead.

This is an excellent Idea.

Nadya.4250:

You are taking two things that make one and splitting them up. Yes it is possible to finish a dungeon with light armored people, I’ve done it, but they were all above 10k ap and knew what the heck they were doing. The people that join the lfg were all under 3k ap and all light armored. But you can not tell me that it isn’t easier to do Arah with heavies vs. lights….. I mean I just must be playing some other game if that’s not true.

The 3 people that joined were inexperienced so much so they didnt finish it themselves, true but you didnt know that when you placed the ad on LFG.

Faster yes, Easier? I wouldnt say its easier personally… I dont think there isnt anything as easy as my necro to play. Can take a ton of damage, can clean lots of conditions and is constantly healing. Yes you need to be experianced to properly play the class but it provides a very big safety net making it pretty easy to play.

Phille.7684:

No idea what solution would be? 4 votes needed maybe? Could still be abused if you are that 1 person who joined.

4 votes is exactly as bad as 2 actually..

with 2 votes, 2 evil people can kick the 3
with 4 votes, 2 evil people can grief and no one can do anything about it.

Its just the same issue but from opposite sides of the mirror

Truth is there isnt a solution to the LFG issue.. its a compromise between a lot of different possibilities. You have to try balancing tools that help players deal with grief with not being able to use those same tools to cause grief.

Nadya.4250:

I think the idea someone suggested of letting us set up requested criteria like min AP, min lvl, and class required to be able to even join the party, would fix this issue all together.

This issue yes but it would create other issues like suddenly the game becoming very hostile to beginners. How many pugs allow chars less then level 80 in dungeons runs designed for lower level characters. imagine if people had the power to actually enforce that.

That suggestion goes against the core design of this game. Anet didnt remove the Trinity just for the fun of it but rather to be able to design a game thats inclusive of any class any player decides to play. If they implement that suggestion it would go a full 180 degree turn.

Nadya.4250:

Thank you, though I can’t tell if you’re calling me out on being Elitest, I don’t feel like I am, and don’t think it was elitist of me to know my limitations, like the ability to carry 3 inexpereanced light armored players in Arah. (Arah is not my beach yet, still trying to tame her)

Also I do take on newbies to dungeons I know well and am willing to teach, even this expereance doesn’t turn me off from that, but when I don’t feel like carrying/teaching I think I should be able to find other players of similar skill set to mine.

P.S. Not like it matters very much, I, OP is a lady not a dude.

Thing is you specifically requested heavies in the LFG request itself hence your issue wasnt really with inexperianced light armored players your issue was with all light armored players. Thats what I feel was wrong and most likely what got you kicked out from the party. Its entirely possible to finish arah in a party full of light armors without issue.. been there done that myself.

Now maybe you had no elitist intentions at all, only you can say that. Problem is when you’re taking the position that anyone in a light armor needs “carrying/teaching” and dont have “similar skill set to mine” thats the perception you give off.

PistolWhip.2697:

@Galen Grey
You missed the whole point of him asking them to bring heavies. They were evidently new and would extend his 2 am dungeon trip even longer so he suggested they bring heavies as it would make the path doable. Why does he have to help 3 newer players in the middle of the night? Also he doesn’t have to start the dungeon earlier, he can play when he wants.

Evidently his duo didn’t go as planned, and he wanted 3 others to help them finish it so they could resume whatever practice another day. Instead, thanks to the party system, 3 players came in, stole his instance then squandered it by leaving anyway which is even more infuriating.

Just because LFG is there, it doesn’t mean you have to accept playing with anyone. When did this become a thing? If a matchmaking service set you up with random people you’d have to date every single one? No, you can pick and choose, LFG is like said above a platform to ALLOW co-operation, not an obligation to co-operate.

Yes Elitists who are wholly too extreme exist, but the opposite does also,which are ‘dowhatIlike’ players who not only refuse to fulfill set requirements but also choose to be carried by those Elitists. They are both as rotten as each other, the rest of us shouldn’t have to suffer for their BS.

Since when not using heavies automatically means you’re new and inexperianced? He asked for heavies in the LFG request itself. Yes the 3 who joined turned out to be newbies which I’d bet is also a result of requesting heavies, I mean what would you expect at 2am ? He was clearly targeting speed runners but at 2am those are still active will likely be with their own group finding 3 actually looking for a group to join at that hour is kinda hard. Others who are not speed runners will likely stay away from groups with such requests.. I wouldnt join even if playing a heavy at the moment for a lot of reasons, cant speak for all player base obviously but I’d be surprised if I am the only one. Then you have the newbies who likely didnt even know the reason behind the request.

Yes that is exactly what it means. If you decide to play with others you decide to play with others. There is a certain etiquette to follow so to speak and respecting others is part of it. Imagine if this is PvP instead of PvE would you imagine someone starting a match and complaining with players who dont get heavies or who even leaving mid match cause they dont get heavies? It would be unacceptable so why is it okey in PvE?
Everyone has a right to play and the LFG is a system to get people together and form groups when they dont have their own group to play with. Its not a system to help people discriminate on their own believes of what other should or shouldnt be doing. Someone who plays a necro can finish a dungeon just as well as someone who plays a berserker warrior. Sure they’ll not finish as quickly but hey if he was in such a hurry why did he duo the thing in the first place?

Subutex.2416:

Galen Grey.4709:

Its like your car breaks down and you need a lift to somewhere but when someone offers to take you, you tell them to get a different type of car. (not a perfect analogy since naturally those 3 benefited from helping him more then someone giving you a lift would benefit) but still they’re helping him out and without help he is likely stuck. Why should he be entitled to any special treatment? (demanding stuff / Untouchable)

He would still be able to choose if he wanted to go in that car or not with that person (unlike LFG system) and it would be perfectly fine and normal if the driver went on his way leaving him behind. Picking him up, driving him all the way back to where he started, then leaving him there is not alright.

He could still chose to not use the LFG tool at all or even to leave the party. Also they didnt drive him back anywhere, they simply told him to get out once he acted in appropriately which is perfectly fine. Its the nature of the game that when you get off you’re sent at the start, not the action of the players themselves.