Guild Wars 2

Fury.6281:

Personally, the reality of the matter is more mobility rather than DPS (Based on the small differences in most calculations). I would gladly sacrifice 2-3% of my DPS to have access to whirlwind and rush. Also worth mentioning is the dodge Whirlwind provides, making for superior DPS on a target like Subject Alpha where you can whirlwind, as opposed to just depending on Reckless Dodge damage while evading his attacks.

Unless it comes down to record running, I doubt anyone would REALLY prefer 100% axe game play, especially when you can get similar or better damage output with a GS swap.

But if we really want to settle these things…

Why don’t we set up all of the “Meta” competitor builds and set which ones set the fastest dungeon records.. Yes, player skill will vary the results, but if you can get a faster time and be considered handicapped by using a “worse” build, well, I think you deserve to say whatever you want.

That’s what people used to clamor for whenever anyone posted an alternative build. While it was funny to watch people fight over the best records you couldn’t really get a good assessment of actual DPS short of having one group of the same people (to control for other factors) run every single build over and over a million times in the same dungeon.

Elegie.3620:

Hello,

Warlord.9074:

Na this trait is strictly PVE. Its position in the Tree, and the tree that its in makes it too deep to do anything thing for PVP. Now that we understand the full mechanics of the trait, I can say its fair to say that its not very useful in PVP even if it was in master tier.

I’m not sure I have understood all that was said in the thread (I haven’t read all of it), so I apologize in advance if I’m saying stupid thing, or things already stated. My point is: I have some doubt about the trait being that bad, especially in a PVP context.

I don’t think that the DPS matters here. The trait lets you hit faster, so what it basically does is grant you an increased opportunity to hit your foe once more, before the opponent blocks, dodges or escapes outside of your reach. What should be discussed is how probable that supplemental hit happens to be – and in PvP, it mainly depends on the skills of both players, and how they play their own skill rotations. Personally, I’ve been working fast rotations for certain combos, so I really feel such a trait could help.

Incidentally, I believe that there is a particular case where this extra hit shines: in the application of conditions. Consider DWA on a double sword condition build, using on-crit sigils like Sigil of Earth. Hitting 10% faster grants you a better chance to apply up to 3 bleed stacks if both the Sigil of Earth works, and if Precises Strikes activates. This has no price.

Just my 2c.

I don’t think anyone really understands anything Warlord is saying. It’s all crap about glasses of water and percentages scaling and whatever else pops into his head at any given time.

A flat increase won’t scale either lol.

You’re a funny guy Warlord.

What if it’s not a glass but a bottle or a mug?

Have you accounted for those in your video tests?

Cause I have.

Does this mean that things that occur in less than a second in the Warlordverse haven’t actually happened at all?

EDIT: Less than a glass I mean.

I’d say a tenth of a second every second adds up to a lot since there’s a lot of seconds out there.

I guess the real question here though is how many seconds fit in a glass. Once we know that we can start making videos of glasses filling up to calculate the DPS > DPG conversion ratio.

Keep in mind that while the discussion is about which spec has the most DPS, that doesn’t mean those are the default META specs. The default meta spec should always be EA warrior in an organized group, because the extra power boost to the group you provide vastly outweighs any potential loss in personal DPS.

You just don’t see the EA build discussed much because it’s pretty obvious to begin with and there isn’t really much to debate about it. There honestly isn’t much to debate about which max-DPS build is best either, Nike & co. already figured that out too. The rest are just people being dumb.

So we’re measuring damage in glasses now.

That’s basically what I got out of that.

Warlord.9074:

hendo.1940:

Warlord.9074:

I wouldn’t say your results are different than mine.

Wot.

I think I deserve an answer to the question I asked you. Unless you can provide a situation In game besides a time based attack on a golem that will show a 9% DPS increase I think everyone needs an honest answer of when this becomes a 9% DPS increase. Because if you don’t your video and your test is disingenuous.

Wait wait wait, this looks potentially hilarious. I want to parse this out.

Please explain to me exactly what you think damage per SECOND is based on if not time.

You should probably run the meta rifle variant, which is basically the same traits except with Precise Sights instead of Hair Trigger and Bomb Kit instead of Rifle Turret or Throw Mine. You asked for absolute minmax personal DPS but a more balanced build loses a really tiny amount of DPS and gets you an extra 6-9 stacks of party-wide might.

I literally stopped trying to understand your bogus reasoning like 2 pages ago, now I’m just along for the ride.

10% speed boost doesn’t equate to .1 seconds shaved off every second btw, it’s closer to .09 seconds since 10% increase in speed = 1 / 1.1 = .909.

Not that it’s worth trying to explain that to you because I’m pretty sure you’re just making stuff up as you go along now.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Purple Miku.7032:

hendo.1940:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

. Warrior does benefit relatively less from Strength (outside of a Phalanx pug-carrier build) since they don’t stack as much might as other classes do

What

I actually agree with hendo.

What?

I seem to have no problem generating plenty of might, and when I go with might sharing I can maintain 20-25 stacks easily. So I’m hoping that was just sarcasm about warriors, or maybe they meant “in the most professionally organized group play there is a profession better at generating might for a short period of time even if it isn’t maintained”. That sounds about accurate.

FGJ is 3 stacks, Battle Standard is another 3. That’s about 6 stacks you can share around using an utility and an elite on very long CD, that you can use maybe three times in a dungeon tops. That’s not exactly huge might stacking, unless you were referring to self-stacking which is purely a solo/pug thing.

Aren’t you the one claiming to be better than Anet here?

You should send them an email with a link to this thread, maybe they’ll hire you.

I basically just took the damage-per-skill, subtracted opportunity cost of not using primary during cast time of skill, divided by cooldown, and did that for all skills. I have a spreadsheet that does it for me and all I need to do is tick the appropriate trait boxes.

Always zerker.

Also, just to anticipate the obvious “but what about bombs” question:

6/6/0/0/2 grenade spec, described above. 25 vuln, 25 might, 100% fury, banners, spirit, EA, Spotter, Truffle Steak, Mob potion:

13020 direct damage + 2238 bleed damage = 15258 total

Same, with bombs (no bomb cooldowns except BoB, since those are all weaker than primary):

13951 direct, 594 bleed = 14546 total

Warrior comparison, 6/6/0/2/0, A/M DWA spec: 12600 direct, 186 bleed = 12787 total

Jzaku.9765:

I can’t believe this hilarious thread has been going on for 3 pages and still going on strong

I’ll be sad when it finally does die.

I’ve already done this before.

6/6/0/0/2 with Shrapnel, Explosive Powder, Grenadier, Rifle Mod, Hair Trigger, Bunker Down, and Static Discharge is absolute minmax personal theoretical DPS. Utilities should be Grenade Kit (obviously), Rifle Turret, Throw Mine. Weapon should be Rifle with Force/Night, runes should be Scholar. You should be using Grenade primary as your main attack, and Shrapnel Grenade, Freeze Greenade, Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, Surprise Shot, and Mine Field on cooldown, and dropping the Rifle Turret whenever Surprise Shot is on CD.

Obviously you don’t even have a fire field for might stacking making it less than ideal in a real party, but if we’re just talking theoretical minmax this is the highest number you will get.

For reference, this should be about 10-15% more DPS than a walled GS warrior and maybe 20% more than a pure DPS-spec A/M or GS non-walled warrior. About 10% less than fire staff ele still though.

Either way it’s a lot of damage.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/249pc7/effective_power_and_effective_health_of_all/ch510la

This guy is basically the Martin Luther King Jr. of not dodging.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Also “bombs attack faster” is hilarious when you consider that grenades hit three times per attack.

Why is it hilarous? It’s the truth. Yes there’s 3 grenades per volley, but it’s only at a 33% coefficient each.

I just don’t understand this argument. Most bosses since the ferocity overhaul melt in seconds with the FGS. Stacking 25 vulnerability just doesn’t really matter anymore; most trash and bosses die long before you even hit 25.

Because a hit is a hit regardless of how much damage it deals. This isn’t Diablo where each skill has a proc coefficient as well as a damage one.

Grenades hitting approx. 3x faster means:

1) 3x as likely to proc Shrapnel, Sharpshooter, Precise Sights, etc.
2) 3x as much vuln from Steel-Packed Powder
3) 3x as likely to proc lifesteal from food or other sigil effects.

You can overstate bomb coefficients all you want but actual math shows that grenades clearly do more, even putting the vuln aside and counting ONLY the raw direct and bleed damage.

You are aware that videos don’t run at a steady framerate? That’s why TAC videos are difficult to make even if you program the timing perfectly, they often drop timing windows between 1-2f because the framerate isn’t perfectly smooth and the computer can’t time inputs that accurately over a long period of time.

Either way though no amount of technology can make up for a methodology that is flawed to beign with. Maybe instead of assuming you’re the only genuis who’s discovered something as super obvious as “I actually attack way faster than everyone else thinks I do” you should probably go back and recheck your methodology very carefully. If this was an issue like DPS rankings which involves a lot of formulas and which very few people have actually done, it’d be fair to draw slightly different conclusions, but this is literally “looking at how fast my character swings” which pretty much anyone with eyes can do.

Oh boy here comes Warlord with the made up numbers again. I don’t even remember what the uptime break-even point was on Scholar vs. Ruby but it was very low, I believe around 20%. I could check but honestly I don’t think anyone believes Warlord anyway.

Due to the nerf to Ferocity, the extra Ferocity from Scholar is worth a lot less now and the might duration boost is much more substantial on Strength. Warrior does benefit relatively less from Strength (outside of a Phalanx pug-carrier build) since they don’t stack as much might as other classes do, but you’re really not giving up that much to get it.

Sometimes it is worthwhile to sacrifice damage to make other parts easier, i.e. using a thief to skip stuff in Arah quickly and safely.

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Wow, came back to check out this thread, and apparently I started some heated discussion. I read through it all though, seems to be a huge debate between Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit. And I can’t believe I completely forgot that of course Grenade Kit is better for Vuln stacking due to each attack being 3 hits. Silly me. But this brings up another question for me. The Grenade Kit stacks more Vuln, but lacks a fire field and blast finisher. So is it better to hit the 25 Vuln cap, or fall short of the cap but in return supply Might stacks to the group.

Also, if you run both Bomb and Grenade kits, would you be hurting yourself any? Such as less utilities you can bring, less blast finishers etc.

Might stacking should probably be your first priority.

Running both bombs and grenades would be better than only using one.

Pretty much any class can stack a fair amount of might, especially with Runes of Strength being so good now. Engineer is the only class capable of stacking sustained levels of vuln. Keep in mind that not only do most classes have limited vuln-stacking abilities, the vuln cap is effectively much higher due to Defiant. To keep 25 stacks of vuln on a boss at all times, your group would have to be able to sustain 50 stacks of vuln on average. Some classes can burst to 25 vuln on a boss for about 5 seconds or less (i.e. warrior with A/M and OMM). It works for boss bursting but your damage will slow down considerably after the first few seconds if your group can’t pull off a kill in that time.

Also “bombs attack faster” is hilarious when you consider that grenades hit three times per attack.

Warlord.9074:

My proof is not just videos. My proof is the WIKI which anyone can edit at any time to put whatever they want in there.

Nice dude.

Fury burst is nice for trash. Otherwise not terribly useful.

I like how he took the “stop the clock” line literally and responded with “I don’t need a clock, I have a stopwatch.”

Hammer guard works pretty well for pugs as well, the prot can be a lifesaver. Just make sure to check with any engineers or elementalists in your party if you see them dropping a lot of fire fields, because your hammer symbol will interfere with their fire.

What’s WH burst? Hunter’s Call? That skill barely deals any more than sword auto, if at any more at all. It’s only useful for dealing damage as you run towards a target outside of melee range and even so I’d forgo that 1-2 seconds of DPS to keep that skill available so I can kara cancel sword chain into a dodge.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Because it’s not like those 10 stacks can’t come from anyone else. It’s really kind of mind-boggling that you would even argue this. I run on my guardian and warrior regularly in dungeons and fractals and we’re constantly hitting 25 vulnerability even without an engineer in the group.

Like an elementalist with might stacking, we’re definitely best at providing vulnerability, but we’re not the only route to achieving max stacks.

Warriors provide, like, 3 stacks with Rending Strikes and an extra 1-2 stacks on average if they’re camping GS. If a Guardian is running hammer, he can maintain maybe 3-5 stacks tops. Mesmer sword auto is 4 stacks. Ranger feline pet gives about 3 stacks. That puts you, at max, around 20 stacks provided everyone is actually stacking vuln and not running hurrPVT tankspec. You will note that’s not even halfway to what you need to cap vuln on a boss. Even with a condition-duration specced engie spamming grenades on a boss you’re only going to get 10-15 stacks, which means that generally you WILL NOT cap vuln even with a grenade engie.

Since the grenade spec still carries bombs and shares the same traits, it’s not too hard to just switch to bombs specifically for trash where your party is capping vuln. At worst you lose Forceful Explosives and one utility for said fights.

Your problem is you are piling on tons of -based damage buffs, which are relatively poor multipliers, when your damage is crap already. The marginal damage buff from JUST switching to zerker gear is 40. That means you could drop 40% worth of damage buffs (which is like both sigils, all your runes, all your traits) and dump them full defense spec and still get the same damage.

In other words, if you’re looking to actually minmax your damage and tankiness, start by dropping the boosts that give the least DPS loss relative to the most survivability gain. Either that or just not bother because you’re in lolPVT.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/91678-post-april-2014-patch-dps-calculations/

Unbuffed base DPS: Mesmer > Ele = Engi > Thief > Warrior > Guardian > Ranger

All buffs: Ele = Mesmer > Engi = Thief > Warrior (walled GS) > Warrior > Ranger

Ranger and Mesmer scale worse with more buffs because their pets/phantasms do not get the full benefit of buffs. Ranger in particular scales extremely poorly due to the pet barely getting anything from buffs (they will not receive banner, spirit, etc. buffs due to 5-target AOE cap) other than standard boons transferred to the pet via Fortifying Bond.

Krisstina.7238:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Bomb kit does out damage the grenade kit.
Grenade kit is much superior to bomb kit for vulnerability stacking. 3 vulnerability per throw > 1 vulnerability per bomb even when pulsing.

Also, the downside of thumper turret is that it has a long cooldown (50 seconds) which doesn’t match even 100% might duration (40 seconds) while elixir gun can provide the same amount of blast finishers (3) in the time it takes for thumper turret to come off cooldown + you get extra useful skills to go with it. Just got to weigh up your options. Do you want burst stacking might or continuous sustained might? Which one would be better for a pug scenario?

Grenades do more than bombs. The “bombs outDPS grenades” thing was a mistake by people who basically slotted bombs, went “hey my numbers feel bigger than with grenades” without actually testing or analyzing any of it, and starting repeating it on various forums.

Bombs do beat out grenades in DIRECT damage, but the total damage from grenades is higher once you factor in bleed damage. Moreover, if you are not otherwise already capping vuln, the extra vuln you get from the grenades will make up the direct damage difference as well. In practice you will do much more damage with grenades, but it won’t be as obvious because some of it will be condition damage.

The only time you will generally be favoring bombs over grenades is when 1) you’re already capped on vuln AND 2) your team has enough DPS that mobs drop before you can build up any appreciable bleed. If those two conditions aren’t met, favor grenades unless fighting a mob who is immune to conditions..

Even with the bleed stacks, bombs do more damage. This is based off their higher attack speed AND higher power coefficient. And then there is burning and confusion in the mix.

Grenades are to be used if, and only if, your group cannot maintain 25 vulnerability. It also helps if you’re doing something like Frawley Shaman in FOTM and need the range.

At the end of the day, both options are fine. Use what you like.

Edit: On my autocorrecting tablet at work. Frawley = Grawl. Leaving it there because it amuses me.

Grenades do more, including bleed stacks, precisely because of said bleed stacks, as the bleed is pretty significant. That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Right now the warrior meta is to give up your offhand entirely just so you can take Rending Strikes for an extra 3 stacks of vuln, lots of classes would kill for a weapon that stacks 20 vuln by itself without any DPS loss. Running bombs basically ruins the main sell of the engineer.

Care to show me ur maths??

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/91678-post-april-2014-patch-dps-calculations/

There’s an aftercast, it’s not just the animation time. Stop the clock at any multiple of 3.6 seconds, you’ll be in the exact same part of the animation at any given time. Go up to 36 seconds and you will get exact 10 full axe chains.

You are throwing around random words and numbers but it’s becoming increasingly apparent that you have absolutely no idea what any of them mean. I thought you were just confused about math but I am starting to suspect you are confused about English too.

There’s a really easy way to measure this and you’re not doing it.

1) Untraited axe chain is one per 3.6s. You can test it if you want but that’s what it is.
2) Test actual traited attack chain speed by doing it and measuring it. No one cares about splitting startup and aftercast, just measure the whole thing.
3) Divide #1 by #2.

And that’ll give you your average DPS boost. So easy.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Bomb kit does out damage the grenade kit.
Grenade kit is much superior to bomb kit for vulnerability stacking. 3 vulnerability per throw > 1 vulnerability per bomb even when pulsing.

Also, the downside of thumper turret is that it has a long cooldown (50 seconds) which doesn’t match even 100% might duration (40 seconds) while elixir gun can provide the same amount of blast finishers (3) in the time it takes for thumper turret to come off cooldown + you get extra useful skills to go with it. Just got to weigh up your options. Do you want burst stacking might or continuous sustained might? Which one would be better for a pug scenario?

Grenades do more than bombs. The “bombs outDPS grenades” thing was a mistake by people who basically slotted bombs, went “hey my numbers feel bigger than with grenades” without actually testing or analyzing any of it, and starting repeating it on various forums.

Bombs do beat out grenades in DIRECT damage, but the total damage from grenades is higher once you factor in bleed damage. Moreover, if you are not otherwise already capping vuln, the extra vuln you get from the grenades will make up the direct damage difference as well. In practice you will do much more damage with grenades, but it won’t be as obvious because some of it will be condition damage.

The only time you will generally be favoring bombs over grenades is when 1) you’re already capped on vuln AND 2) your team has enough DPS that mobs drop before you can build up any appreciable bleed. If those two conditions aren’t met, favor grenades unless fighting a mob who is immune to conditions..

Even with the bleed stacks, bombs do more damage. This is based off their higher attack speed AND higher power coefficient. And then there is burning and confusion in the mix.

Grenades are to be used if, and only if, your group cannot maintain 25 vulnerability. It also helps if you’re doing something like Frawley Shaman in FOTM and need the range.

At the end of the day, both options are fine. Use what you like.

Edit: On my autocorrecting tablet at work. Frawley = Grawl. Leaving it there because it amuses me.

Grenades do more, including bleed stacks, precisely because of said bleed stacks, as the bleed is pretty significant. That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Right now the warrior meta is to give up your offhand entirely just so you can take Rending Strikes for an extra 3 stacks of vuln, lots of classes would kill for a weapon that stacks 20 vuln by itself without any DPS loss. Running bombs basically ruins the main sell of the engineer.

Simple solution to all the complaints: remove dungeons, add “fun-geons”.

GW2 is a play-how-you-want game but dungeons are designed for elitists to exclude people. Therefore, all dungeon mechanics need to be reworked to:

- Mobs no longer take damage from attacks. Instead, they lose health automatically over time. They also lose more health the further away players are from them. This will discourage the “zerk only” stacking meta by enabling players to play how they want, with any build, at any range.

- Mobs no longer deal damage. Instead, players either take steady damage over time, reduced by armor, when near mobs. Dodging will negate this effect for 10 seconds. This will give players a meaningful choice as to whether or not to dodge instead of making dodging mandatory (yes, there’s a guy on reddit right now complaining that dungeons force him to dodge when he doesn’t want to).

- Doors will not open until all mobs in the preceding area have been cleared. This is to prevent skipping, obviously.

- Dungeons no longer give rewards. This is to discourage players from “farming” dungeons instead of doing them for fun, the way they were meant to be played.

- Party members cannot be kicked once they join the party. This is prevent elitists from kicking people for playing how they want. If a party wants to kick a member, they must submit a ticket to Anet detailing the reasons for the requested kick to be reviewed by a GM. This will be made feasible by the fact that most dungeons will take, at minimum, approximately two hours to complete per run.

I think I speak for everyone (but the elitist speedrunning zerk stacksploiters) when i say this would vastly improve the dungeon experience.

Ranger is the worst DPS class but probably one of the better support ones. They give respectable stacks of might, can maintain fury by themselves, and also have several substantial, unique buffs that only rangers can give (Spotter and Frost Spirit) A well-played ranger will not produce huge numbers on his own but he will make everyone else’s a fair bit bigger.

A bad ranger, on the other hand, provides neither damage nor support. And I’ve never seen a good ranger in a pug so…

Xyonon.3987:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Xyonon.3987:

Bombs also have a larger radius. In the end the damage is pretty even, however grenades toolbelt aswell 2 and 4 are pretty bursty, and 4 adds some good cc wich bombs don’t have without a sacrifice of damage. In the end Mork vom Ork is totally right. Allways pick both. You DO NOT want to use grenades 1. But 2-4 are too good and 5 is sometimes too pretty strong since it stacks up rapid and is a good dps boost against bosses and regen (like cof 1).

The funny sentence up there “elixier gun is useless”. Heh – I smiled

Uh you do want to use Grenades primary, it’s 3 stacks of vuln per toss and one of the overall highest attack speed weapons in the game, meaning you get loads of every proc ever.

Bombs primary is slightly more damage per hit but you’re losing vuln and also setting yourself up for some major headache if your plan is to keep switching between bombs and grenades constantly every time Shrapnel comes off CD.

Bombs and grenades have the same attack speed Often engineers seem to think that they are the only ones who can stack vulnerability… Everyone can and if you keep an eye on the vuln stacks you can decide if you wanna deal more damage or more vuln. To be honest – in the end it won’t matter that much. Bombs are just greater if you are surrounded by enemies and grenades if they stack.

To keep switching between bombs n nades doesn’t give me headache, more the opposite! I love it! I really enjoy that fast swapping, to keepup sigil of battle and just for more efficiency. Engi has such a high skillcap and I really love it.

---

About the elixier gun:

The elixier gun is a superior weapon but the only skills you want to use are 3-5 and rarely 2 just for the looks
Fumigate (3) is one of the best group condi cleanser with almost 0 cd and great range. JUST DO NOT USE AUTO TARGET – pain in the kitten :P
Skill 4 has one of the highest damage of our skills aswell a neat combo finisher. Fire bomb, glue bomb, followed by this is a great buff for the pt since both, bomb and EG4 have almost 0 cd, aswell the damage of it is just legendary. You need 1 sec to set up this field, interrupt yourself with a weaponswap so you cancel the knockback and the time you require for that skill vs the damage it deals = outdamages 100b against 3-5 targets.
Skill 5 is simply a good heal, nothing more to say.

Bombs fire at a rate of one ever .92 seconds, or about 1.09 attacks per second. Grenades fire at a rate of once every second but you get three hits per grenade, so your attack rate is 3 per second. That’s considerably higher, notwithstanding the additional fact that grenades hit cleanly on the second-mark, which means it’s much better for hitting skills with an ICD since all ICDs are integer seconds. What that means is that if a bomb procs something and it goes on 1s ICD, the next bomb will hit in .92s and thus proc nothing because it’s still on ICD, so you only get one proc every two bombs at most. Compare that to grenades which will proc on every single toss since they’ll hit right as the ICD ends.

Either way vuln is very hard to cap without an engie, you’d really only want to drop the extra vuln stacks if you have multiple grenade engies and are fighting trash (on bosses you’ll probably want two engies due to Defiance reduction). That’s pretty rare considering I almost never see grenade engies, period.

Purple Miku.7032:

Wethospu and Guanglai, I am impressed with the level of patience you two have shown with Warlord.

Honestly guys… sometimes you just have to accept the fact that there are some people in the world that simply can’t be helped. Just let him think what he wants. Sometimes there are people that are “never wrong.”

tl;dr I don’t think anyone’s going to win this argument and it’s just a cyclic mesh of close-mindedness (and apparently ineptitude with intermediate algebra).

I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for the ignorant posting, if it was just a bunch of people saying the right thing all the time it’d get pretty boring pretty fast.

You can definitely see that with relatively small, more elitist communities like Dustloop, where the most interesting new thing that happens is new players coming in asking for advice on a new character and getting good advice for tourney-level players. Compare it to Gamefaqs which is endlessly amusing because of the constant stream of scrubs complaining that X kittenty character is overpowered and needs to be banned etc.

It doesn’t matter what you multiply nothing by, you still get nothing.

That explains why you’re getting a lol9k total damage from a full Rapid Fire channel.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Lucas.9157:

Almost! Got 13/30

Do you even expect some of these to be said in a thread?

“Pugs are faster”

The “pugs are faster” line usually goes along the lines of “lol elitist zerks sit around waiting for their perfect party I can join a pug and be done in half the time it takes for them to even form the party”.

serialkicker.5274:

Zylonite.5913:

what is the point of LFG tool.

I ask that myself many times, since 80% of my lfg descriptions are ignored. If I want guardian, I’ll get everything but guardian. If I want ele, I’ll get everything but ele. If I want experienced only, I’ll get necro with 1000 ap that says “Oh, I haven’t done this dungeon, but I’ve done others”…
If I just put “p1” in description for example, then I don’t care who joins, I never kick anyone, but if I explecitly ask for something, then don’t ignore that. The worst part is that most of them actually read description, but they choose to simply ignore it, which then leads into kick and then probably some of them come here to make topic of how they were kicked for no reason.

I once did a “experienced zerk only, must know how to melee lupi and do all skips first try” LFG and got a guy who joined and asked me where Arah was, then asked me if it’s far from Queensdale.

He was level 80 too.

Uh that’s straight-up wrong.

Even if not all hits of the auto-chain do the same amount of damage. You don’t accumulate hits under the table until you reach an integer then you magically get an extra hit out of nowhere. Damage is averaged over time. There’s no such thing as “you only get a full DPS increase if the last hit connects”. At the 10-hit mark you’re not getting one extra hit’s worth of damage, you’re also that much further along in the chain which means you are going to hit the big final hit sooner. Thus, the average increase is 10%.

Look at it this way. If a mob needs 10 hits to kill and you attack at a rate of 1 per second, you need 10 seconds to kill the mob. If you attack at a rate of 1.1 per second, you only need 10 / 1.1 = 9.09 seconds to get 10 hits to kill the mob which is, surprise, 10% faster and thus 10% more DPS.

Your “you only get damage when you get an integer number” claim is almost as silly as your “your DPS doesn’t actually increase because RNG might cause you to deal less damage sometimes” argument. I don’t think you understand how averages work, you’re literally playing at understanding basic math which is really, really sad.

Xyonon.3987:

Bombs also have a larger radius. In the end the damage is pretty even, however grenades toolbelt aswell 2 and 4 are pretty bursty, and 4 adds some good cc wich bombs don’t have without a sacrifice of damage. In the end Mork vom Ork is totally right. Allways pick both. You DO NOT want to use grenades 1. But 2-4 are too good and 5 is sometimes too pretty strong since it stacks up rapid and is a good dps boost against bosses and regen (like cof 1).

The funny sentence up there “elixier gun is useless”. Heh – I smiled

Uh you do want to use Grenades primary, it’s 3 stacks of vuln per toss and one of the overall highest attack speed weapons in the game, meaning you get loads of every proc ever.

Bombs primary is slightly more damage per hit but you’re losing vuln and also setting yourself up for some major headache if your plan is to keep switching between bombs and grenades constantly every time Shrapnel comes off CD.

Drop, overcharge, detonate, keep mashing the button to get Rumble as well.

Why would the DPS increase ramp up over time? Clearly you don’t understand math.

I’m not even sure what the discussion is about anymore. Wasn’t this topic originally about OP wanting trinity back into the game?

Isn’t the P3 boss the guy who does the rockfall? You stack so he doesn’t do that, it murders pugs. Also Grast doesn’t put the anti-rock shield up reliably since he gets CC’d by the boss, I dunno if he still does that since I haven’t done that boss legit in ages.

This is one of those cases where stacking isn’t for DPS but just convenience.

Dub.1273:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think the best part is he linked my post and didn’t even notice.

I somewhat get it now.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

A 20% attack speed bonus would be ridiculous, there’s no trait that gives that much of a DPS boost other than Grenadier, which is incidentally THE epitome of a broken trait.

But basically the only one making engineer dps somewhat okay’ish.

Well yeah, that’s part of the problem. Engineer DPS is pretty bad without Grenadier (albeit bombs are okay) which means all their stuff is basically balanced around them having Grenadier. Balanced with, bad without. Broken trait since everything revolves around it.

@ Warlord:
It’s randomness within a range. If you kill a golem faster without DWA that’s just you getting good random rolls one time. On average you will kill faster with DWA, that’s super obvious and if you don’t see it you don’t get how basic math works.

hendo.1940:

6/4/0/4/0 seems a good build, IF I use at least 2 (?) mantras. But what Skills am I using?

You slot in whichever utilities are relevant. If there’s nothing you just load up on mantras for damage modifiers.

Then I’ve got a last utility slot wich normally is signet of inspiration since I’m playing rarely in organized groups and got runes of strength + battle sigil for might share.

There’s no “breakpoint” where PH suddenly becomes relevant. Either your phantasms attack faster or they don’t. The only time PH will NOT be relevant to your DPS is if the fight ends before the phantasm has a chance to attack a second time, i.e. within 2-3 seconds of summoning it. Most fights aren’t that short even for a speedclear group.

The only thing you’re going to be generating might off is a sigil of battle, you’re better off just taking a mantra for a damage modifier – the miniscule amount of might isn’t going to make much of a difference to the pugs’ DPS, you’re just compromising your own.

So the last option would be the mantra heal but I would definitly deal more damage with the signet so I’m stuck with only ONE mantra in my utility bar. That’s why I tought about 5/4/0/5/0 for +15% phant damage instead of mantra damage.

Then you lose compounding power. If you want to drop empowering mantras, I’d say 10/20/0/x/10 should be your base and then just stick in relevant traits from there.

I’ve also played 2/4/0/4/4 but the +3-9% dmg from the illusion trait is less worth than the power missed from dominion, aswell the cdr on illusion attacks could be outdamaged with inspiration 5 and power from dominon. The only reason to go for inspiration seems to be the summoning CDR.

IIRC it’s fights which begin to reach 60s+ which is where phantasmal haste becomes relevant – so if you’re in bursty situations don’t even bother with it – that opens you up 5 points you can move around to another trait line.

So you think it’s the best to switch between 6/4/0/4/0 and 5/4/0/5/0? Also, what are you traiting in dominon 4? I normally use the signet but all other traits seem to be totally bad there Vulnerbility or boon rippng on shatter for some F3 opening?

The traits are pretty junk, signet mastery seems to be the only decent choice really.