Guild Wars 2

MMO’s focus on loot because that’s what players demand. As long as that focus is there, there’s going to be exclusion based on optimization. I get why you’re not happy about it, but blaming GW2 is silly.

If you want to blame someone or something for the fixation of players on loot, you need to go further back than just GW2. The root of this behavior (in games) goes back to pen and paper D&D, and maybe further. I remember one situation wherein a player was killed. The DM was still in the midst of spouting flavor-text about how the “noble warrior” was falling to the ground. The player whose character was next to the now-dead character interrupts the DM with, “Too bad! I search the body.”

The loot-to-bags feature seems a bit inconsistent. I know that in WvW, as the OP says, loot does fall to the ground if one is dead. However, I seem to remember the game auto-depositing the chest that procs once you kill the Wyvern Patriarch in VB while dead (thought I could finish the cast on Meteor Shower, thought wrong). I’ve no idea whether loot that would drop from a regular mob in PvE auto-deposits when the character is dead.

TexZero.7910:

I dont even anymore.

If 1 hr a day for a month is hardcore, then i have to question what in the other 23 hrs is so important that you still think your 1hr sacrifice means you should be in there with people who are willing to put in that time, when you aren’t.

People in these two camps will never understand each other. Raids are, and have always been, about making a commitment to raids. People who have more to do with their time than play games are used to buying — and playing — games that they can play at their own pace. Most games support that choice because games are leisure activity. Raids are, and have always been, serious business to raiders, and neither raid design nor the raid community are tolerant of an uncommitted play-style.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Don’t we still have the armors we had a launch? If choice was rich then, and the armors are still available, why is choice now not rich?

It’s a function of, “What have you made for us lately?” At least that’s my best guess.

I would like ANet to keep making outfits. However, I would be more likely to buy more outfits if ANet were to make more outfits that were less ornate than most of what comes out. The over-elaborate in both armor pieces and outfits does nothing for me.

Dawdler.8521:

Spook.5847:

I do not appreciate attempts at being forced to play WvW and/or PvP to do dailies

I do not appreciate attempts at being forced to play PvE and/or fractals/raids to do dailies, so we are at an impasse.

PvE preference and WvW/sPvP preference players only need to go into a different mode if they refuse to do at least 2 of the 4 daily task options available in “their” chosen mode. I don’t think the word “forced” applies if the forcing is based solely on one’s own choice.

Jockum.1385:

Casuals rarely ask for anything.

Whether that’s true or not is anyone’s guess, and is highly dependent on which of the many definitions of "casual floating around on these boards. However, at least in the history of the official GW2 board, there have been a tremendous amount of asks by posters who self-identified as being casual.

Devata.6589:

You might be like ‘Well I never got precursor x to drop but I was ably to earn the money to buy it so this proofs the extreme low drop-rates.’ However then you forget an essential element of what I said. Having it drop from specific places. When every mob can drop item x, to keep item y exclusive the droprate has to be extremeley low, yes so low that it is likely that you never get it. But if only 1 mob or one group of mobs drops it, the drop-rate can be much higher while keeping the same level of exclusivity, and then the comparising to currency does go up and never getting it is statistically close to impossible.

Your approach is not going to work in GW2. If a rare and valuable item were to be available from a specific mob, with much better drop rates, players would farm the heck out of the mob. Since a lot of players are going to get kill credit, the drop rate would still need to be much lower than on other games in which a limited number of players (often just one, at most a party of X) gets a chance at the drop.

In addition, items dropping from specific mobs are going to generate farm groups, who will jealously protect their perceived “right” to kill the same mob over, and over and over. It’s happened every time a new specific area farm came to the fore in GW2. Every time, ANet had to step in and nerf the farm because people were chat-fighting over it.

For the record, I’ve never gotten a precursor drop. However, I wasn’t talking about this game when I said I could cite several examples of never getting an item that dropped from a specific source. Those examples would all be from other MMO’s which use the system you’ve put on a pedestal.

Rin.1046:

Malediktus.3740:

I think the loot is very good considering each mob can be looted by upto 50 people.

My problem is not how the loot is acquired, it’s the quantity and quality of it. I think having 50 people loot the same mob and get equal loot is great and one of the best features of GW2, but it is spoilt by the amount of worthless feeling drops you can get.

The fact that 20-50 people can get loot from the same creature is a main reason the loot system is the way it is. Another alternative would be to use RNG like other games, but have the desirable items be extremely low chance drops. Whichever system a developer uses, getting the stuff you want has to take a lot of time. This is an artifact of MMO design which is necessitated by the MMO business model, which depends on lots of players playing for a long time.

The thing about story content in a quasi-action game is that it cannot generate appeal to both tails of the player skill curve. Tune it to below average skills and those average and above find it too easy. Tune it to above average skills and those average and below struggle. So, if the developer tunes it to average skills, they please the most people.

The problem with average tuning is, the highly skilled are still going to throw insults at the content like “faceroll,” while the least skilled are still going to struggle. There are solutions for both groups though. The highly skilled have raids and T100CM fractals to conquer, so they can then claim those are too easy. The least skilled can still do the story content, but they might, as the OP discusses, have to group. While finding it necessary to group to complete a story episode may be inconvenient, that is the result of needing to please the greatest number of players.

I believe myself to be in the low end of the average range as far as skill goes. I’m not one of those being defeated constantly in open world content. I’m also not sitting in melee on open world bosses bored because avoiding their attacks is a cakewalk. While there are certain story fights that I find annoying rather than fun, I’ve yet to find one I couldn’t complete.

Now, the annoying I could do without.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Mavis.1463:

Ayrilana.1396:

Mavis.1463:

jheryn.8390:

I would say Ayrilana did address one of your points. Please read your own post. You were the one that claimed GW1 was an MMO.

lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars
“Guild Wars is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG)”

The wiki also got recently changed on April 27th to show MMORPG where it has been shown as competitive/cooperative online rpg.

lol
Because there’s no such thing as a “CORPG”.
That’s a term coined by anet to make GW1 stand out.

By that definition, there’s no such thing as stainless steel (a termed coined by a company attempting to pass off “silverware” not made of silver). Every modern term, including MMO, started as someone’s idea of how to label something that they thought important.

MMO has become a catch all for any game that allows an arbitrary number of people to play at any given time. That’s the part that GW1 includes — there’s no limit for sign ups.

But in practice, people play MMOs to share maps with massive amounts of players. GW1 can’t do this. Most maps only allow 8 people (with exceptions of 4, 6, and two with 12).

That’s why ANet called it a Cooperative game rather than an MMO — not to “stand out,” but to temper people’s expectations of the gameplay.

Is that your deduction, or do you have a quote, because I never heard them say that.. Or I might’ve forgotten. If the gw1 wiki talk/discussion on the subject is any indication, it seems that it used to be competitive, before it was cooperative.

“Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft. The first campaign of Guild Wars, Guild Wars Prophecies was released on April 28, 2005. The different genre was chosen (as opposed to the “Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) RPG”) due to the perceived differences between the game and other MMOs: the focus on Player versus Player (PvP) rather than Player versus Environment (PvE) play made it almost a unique case at the time, players received their own instanced copy of explorable zones and parties were limited to 8 players each, a tiny number compared to the massive caps of other games, which often allowed for up to 64 players in a single party (and unlimited players in non-instanced zones, which were the norm)."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars

That’s the official Guild Wars Wiki.

Ubi.4136:

That said, it makes no sense for a player to be “offline (invisible)” and still be able to send whispers to other players.

I agree with this. I’m having a hard time thinking of any legitimate reason to whisper someone while remaining anonymous that could not be accomplished by changing one’s status.

Devata.6589:

The thing is, you can’t appreciate the good without the bad.

Tell that to the myriads who post about miserable drop rates. Sure, developers can fiddle with drop rates, but they usually don’t. That’s why there are a lot of people who prefer a sure thing over time. Sure, there are a lot who prefer serendipity, but the grass is always greener…

“In addition, there is the very real chance you’ll never get the item.” The strange thing is, is that I do here this argument a lot in this discussion while it’s completely unreasenable. I guess it’s based more on feeling than on fact. You see, this is statistically almost impossible.

Impossible? I don’t think that word means what you think it means. I could cite several items in MMO’s that NEVER dropped for me. Your argument is based on moderate chance RNG, and that is not what developers use in every case. At one point, ANet was using random drops of Ascended items as the promised alternative to crafting. At a point when champion bags was a major source of such drops, the drop rate was far below 1 in 100, by a factor of 100. Maybe you have played games where RNG is friendly, but other than Torchlight or SPRPG’s, I haven’t.

See italics.

For every post in this thread claiming to like the idea of a living world, one could find hundreds (well, you could if forum search worked) of posts complaining about content not being available after the chapter’s window had passed. I remember ANet saying other things besides the stuff in the OP’s linked videos. Among those were statements about ANet being an iterative development studio, that is attempting to do innovative things. When innovative approaches don’t work, are unpopular, or are not sustainable, they try something else.

Valzacard.1028:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

The other problem with the HoT metas is commanders asking non-participants to leave the map. Yes, I should stop what I’m doing in the middle of an event and go to a different map where the event might not even be happening at this time or will stop in the middle because I have to start over again so won’t be finished before the meta starts.

The HoT metas were a terrible idea.

Why do you have to do as they ask if you prefer to finish what you are doing?

Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with social pressure of numerous people all wanting you to do the same thing? I don’t necessarily bow to such pressure but I’ve been told I am unusually “stubborn”.

No, I understand social pressure. However, unless people’s avatars are actually near where yours is, how would they even know you are on the map? I’ve never seen the type of pressure you seem to be talking about. Are they just asking in map chat?

Regardless, should I see such requests, my thinking would be: (1) while I often see taxi LFG’s to a meta map, I never see taxis to non-meta maps; 2), one doesn’t need a full zone’s population to beat a meta event; and (3), given (1) and (2), if I want to be in this zone, asking or telling me to leave the zone completely so the meta group can greatly outnumber the meta is neither fair nor reasonable. This opinion would change if ANet implemented a district drop down as they had in the original GW game, but GW2 does not allow me to travel to various map copies on demand except via LFG/Join In.

I don’t think you understand the issue

Some people want to join the meta map and simply can’t because people refuse to relog, so they miss out on the chance to do an event that only happens on a 2 hour cycle because of selfish minded/lazy people.

OK, I didn’t consider that leaving the game and returning would put one on a different shard. Thanks for that.

However, I admit I’m torn. The truth is that far fewer people are required to complete map metas than can be jammed into one shard via taxi. Yet, people don’t want to make the effort to make things work on the map they’re on. So there’s the potential for both lazy and ignorant on both sides of the issue. However, I also understand peoples’ reluctance to take that initiative. Frankly, I wish MMO’s were less slanted toward player convenience than they are. I found MMO’s to be more interesting and fun when players had to get creative to get things done.

Ah, well, I’ll be more mindful of leaving meta maps if I ever actually see that the map I’m on is taxi central and I don’t want to pitch in. Usually, though, the game shoves me into an emptying zone, so I’m less likely to be part of that problem.

Mavis.1463:

It’s funny how you’re associating Arenanet’s mistakes and failures as hallmarks of traditional MMOs, when games like FFXIV are extremely succesful (even with a sub fee) while GW2 was forced to go F2P to maintain a relatively decent playerbase.

Interesting non-facts. All it takes is a quick google search to show that this poster did not perform such a search. While GW2 is listed below WoW, FFIV and ESO in most articles, it is generally considered to be quite healthy. An IP with far less brand recognition placing below IP behemoths Warcraft, Final Fantasy and Elder Scrolls is not surprising, nor is it a mark of commercial failure.

Also, GW2 Play-For-Free does not make GW2 a true free-to-play game. PFF is nothing but an extended trial intended to entice people to buy Buy-to-Play GW2’s current boxed XPac plus core.

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

The other problem with the HoT metas is commanders asking non-participants to leave the map. Yes, I should stop what I’m doing in the middle of an event and go to a different map where the event might not even be happening at this time or will stop in the middle because I have to start over again so won’t be finished before the meta starts.

The HoT metas were a terrible idea.

Why do you have to do as they ask if you prefer to finish what you are doing?

Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with social pressure of numerous people all wanting you to do the same thing? I don’t necessarily bow to such pressure but I’ve been told I am unusually “stubborn”.

No, I understand social pressure. However, unless people’s avatars are actually near where yours is, how would they even know you are on the map? I’ve never seen the type of pressure you seem to be talking about. Are they just asking in map chat?

Regardless, should I see such requests, my thinking would be: (1) while I often see taxi LFG’s to a meta map, I never see taxis to non-meta maps; 2), one doesn’t need a full zone’s population to beat a meta event; and (3), given (1) and (2), if I want to be in this zone, asking or telling me to leave the zone completely so the meta group can greatly outnumber the meta is neither fair nor reasonable. This opinion would change if ANet implemented a district drop down as they had in the original GW game, but GW2 does not allow me to travel to various map copies on demand except via LFG/Join In.

ANet has said many times that their development style is to look to do innovative things. Sometimes this works out, sometimes it doesn’t. In the case of dungeons, it did not work out.

Explorable dungeons were intended to be really hard content. They were supposed to challenge coordinated groups of skilled players. However, few paths really required that level of skill and coordination. The best guess as to why ANet has largely abandoned dungeons is that it would require too much development time to fix them to meet their intent to offer challenging group content.

As with all MMO’s, ANet needs to keep the attention of several types of players, all of whom have different wants. All MMO’s struggle to keep the attention of the MMO player-base, which is very demanding. Also, there is a lot of competition for market share. It’s likely that ANet is unable to split their development resources to support three types of harder, instanced group content while also working on open world, living story, PvP and WvW.

I think it pays to look at the whole picture when evaluating value for money. That includes looking at the entire package, as well as the whole cost. ANet charged a AAA price for HoT, but they neither charge a rental fee to maintain one’s playing privilege (a sub), nor remove/throttle convenience and rent that convenience under the guise of an “optional” sub. The only MMO’s to my knowledge whose optional sub is not something one has to have to make the game not-annoying to play are ESO and TSW. Both of those games were using a DLC model, and offering (last time I checked) either similar value-for-money as or less value-for-money than HoT. Of course, now ESO has published an XPac and charged $10 less than ANet charged for HoT. TSW meanwhile is going fully F2P and doing a mechanics overhaul.

That said, I understand the OP’s complaint. ANet is of course free to decide on their own business model. However, the value of HoT would certainly have been enhanced if they had gone with the idea that purchase of HoT included access to the LS episodes between HoT and the next XPac without the “must log in” requirement.

Taking that approach would have made it clear that HoT was an XPac and season pass. That might have forestalled some of the grumbling and ill-feeling over the price point compared to what HoT brought to the table. It also would be much clearer to customers what they were getting. Finally, it would have been a nod to ANet’s before-launch talk about people being able to take time off and not feel disadvantaged when/if they came back.

I agree with Healix that the necessary login for LS3 unlock is likely about login metrics. Bigger numbers look good when talking to fan sites or the NCSoft people. Also, while not everyone buys gems, the number-crunchers at ANet and NCSoft are going to have $ per login stats, and both the parent and ANet are going to believe that bigger login numbers are going to lead to increased sales.

Djinn.9245:

The other problem with the HoT metas is commanders asking non-participants to leave the map. Yes, I should stop what I’m doing in the middle of an event and go to a different map where the event might not even be happening at this time or will stop in the middle because I have to start over again so won’t be finished before the meta starts.

The HoT metas were a terrible idea.

Why do you have to do as they ask if you prefer to finish what you are doing?

While I liked GW2 better at launch than I do now, that has little to do with deviation from the game design philosophy statements made in those videos. I offer the following food for thought:

• Statements made as to game philosophy are not promises. At best they are wishes.
• Either the ToS or UA contains a phrase wherein consumers acknowledge that game conditions may change at any time and without notice. I suspect that a lot of people either did not read that clause, or have forgotten it.
• Game developers are caught between different consumer demographics. While it would be nice if they could please everyone, that is impossible when different people want diametrically opposed things.
• No developer can produce an MMO which does not at least offer repetition. MMO Developers need to use goals which require repetition to entice players to come back time after time. The MMO business model does not work unless they do.

There are upsides and downsides to reward systems.

Incremental Reward Systems: many GW2 rewards are incremental in nature. Players need to collect a raft of stuff to gain the desired item. Ascended crafting, which produces BiS stats for weapons and armor, is a perfect example of this.

• The upside is that you know that after collecting mats or collecting gold and buying mats, you can get the desired thing.
• The downside is that, since there is little or no mystery as to when you’ll get the item, the player does not experience the excitement of anticipation which is generated by uncertainty. Also, the sense of gratification at gaining the incremental reward item tends to be more diffused by the inevitable nature of the system.

Serendipity Reward Systems: any MMO fan knows this type of system, which is based on the use of a pseudo-random algorithm to generate a chance one will get the item.

• The upside of this system is that the mystery generated by not knowing creates anticipation, and the all-or-nothing nature of the system (you either get the drop or you don’t) tends to produce a greater sense of gratification. The feelings generated by this type of system are similar to those which occur when gambling, though there’s certainly nothing at stake but the player’s time.

• The downsides of this type of reward system include the sense of disappointment that inevitably results each time you get a chance at the drop and don’t actually get it. The longer this goes on, the more likely it is that relief that it’s over may accompany, or even overshadow the gratification of desire fulfilled. In addition, there is the very real chance you’ll never get the item. Even if you do get it, there’s no guarantee as to when that will happen. You might get it first time out, or you may end up repeating the content a lot more than you might with an incremental system (like GW2 dungeon tokens).

The thing is, just as there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems, there are players who prefer one system to the other. That’s probably why ANet uses (and has used since the game launched) a mix of the two systems.

In addition to the obvious benefits of the Elite Specs introduced in Heart of Thorns, the XPac offered new stat combinations which are objectively more powerful. The combination of these stat combos, the benefits of the Elite Specs and the slight difference between Ascended and Exotic add up. Opportunity costs in these combinations are less than for core-only specs with core-only gear that is no longer BiS except for trinkets.

Meta play in both zerg, solo and small group combat involves beginning with as many offensive and defensive buffs as possible. Players also hit their invulnerability skills early (some professions have access to more than one). With protection/regen, multi-block or outright immunity to direct damage that lasts long enough for them to burst you down, anyone not also using these tactics are going to have experiences similar to yours.

So, yeah, it’s a combination of specs, gear and tactics.

Deihnyx.6318:

IndigoSundown.5419:

This is not at all true. Players who have played a lot of WvW are in no way forced to play WvW less because they will get rewards faster. That you think so reveals that your only interest here is the reward.

Ugh, What? Where did I say anything about “forced to play less”?
You don’t have to play as much as a low rank to get the same reward, how did you come to translate that by “forced to play less” ??

I did play many days of WvW after getting diamond, please do not assume things about people.

Deihnyx.6318:

Should be rewarded the most yes. By giving more things or locking rewards behind higher ranks. There are many ways to do it.

The only reward you get is less time in that mode you’re committed to play. It’s less a reward for you than it is a punishment for someone who wants to get started. Hence all the fuss about it.

I was perhaps confused by the statement above which I have italicized. On the face of it it looks like you’re saying their reward is playing less. I see now that you meant that they need to commit less time to get the reward. I find your phrasing above to be a bit awkward, but your clarification to be, well, clear.

Deihnyx.6318:

Should be rewarded the most yes. By giving more things or locking rewards behind higher ranks. There are many ways to do it.

The only reward you get is less time in that mode you’re committed to play. It’s less a reward for you than it is a punishment for someone who wants to get started. Hence all the fuss about it.

This is not at all true. Players who have played a lot of WvW are in no way forced to play WvW less because they will get rewards faster. That you think so reveals that your only interest here is the reward.

Vayne.8563:

That said, commanders should remove their squad from LFG once the map fills.

That would certainly be courteous and make sense.

DC during the final dialogue of story missions has become a regular thing for me as well. I’ve asked before if anyone has any idea why this happens, or what can be done about it. So far, no responses. At this point I’m not doing story missions, as a game play session that ends in frustration is not fun. It seems a pity that the company that knew how to save one’s place in an instance more than a decade ago cannot (or will not) do so now.

On topic…

Different people have different desires when it comes to fun. Also, the game has enough action elements that factors like connection, how well/quickly your system renders objects and NPC’s and twitch reflexes play a larger part in success than slower games (like the Big Kahuna). That’s why we see some people saying the game is hard, while others say even raids are too easy.

Without knowing more about what you were trying to do, and with what profession and build, it’s next to impossible to offer advice on how to change your experience. So, I’m going to take your post as serving a need to vent until and unless we see more from you. If you want advice, I’m sure someone will offer it, as long as you can pick it out from the usual internet forum derails about verbiage.

Without invulnerability procs, resistance and what-have-you, what happens to front-liners when they attempt to close with the enemy zerg? They are hit with the same massive amounts of AoE from wells, traps, marks, etc. that their zerg is using. If there are too many defensive procs, there are also way too many AoE skills. I don’t find it any more frustrating to attack someone and do no damage than it is to not have anywhere to move to because of 2-3 dozen overlapping red circles. Either you can ignore the AoE spam or you die, there’s no middle ground.

Healix.5819:

Daddicus.6128:

You don’t build something for the 1%, and then lock the other 99% out of rewards simply because they choose not to raid.

Earning spirit shards after maxing masteries wasn’t originally a thing, so in this case, it’s more like they added it because it was the only the 1%. Raid masteries are locked for the same reason; to further incentivize raiding.

The reason for all of this was that GW2 had a problem with perception. Outside of the game, it was common to hear that there was no point in playing because the game had no purpose; there was no endgame. The problem is that raiding is generally perceived as the only purpose in MMOs, whereas GW2 expected you to play the game for the journey itself, much like any single player game. They needed to add raiding simply to stop that crowd, but they’ll never be able to keep them because there’s no point in raiding without actual vertical progression to provide them with a sense of superiority. Trying to incentivize raiding was simply to judge how they were going to move forward, as development will only continue if the population is there to justify it.

Now that the first set of raids is finished, the locks have lost most of their purpose and could be removed whenever they wanted. In a few months however, the next expansion will take over and it’s not going to matter either way.

The big challenge for ANet as far as raids go at this point is now that the dedicated raiders can get their L. Armor, what is ANet to provide as the next goal. L. Armor, as the last remaining L. Item to make an appearance, was a good carrot, but once raiders get the sets they want, they’ll be looking for the next big thing. At that point, I think ANet is likely to lose a lot of raiders unless they compromise what’s left of the vision they started the game with.

Either way, though, a spirit shard on L80 tick is in no way going to be seen as a decent reward for doing a raid.

Also, lest we forget, shards replaced skill points as a currency used to buy, among other things, Mystic Toilet recipe ingredients. The three iterations for post-80 tick rewards were:

1. Everyone got skill points on tick, with no gates.
2. Shards were introduced and dropped in various ways. No one got anything for the Post 80 tick.
3. Shards were put in as a post-80 tick reward, but only for the completionists.

In iterations 1 and 2, everyone was treated the same. 3 favors the completionist.

The best open world option, unless you’re playing an Ele who has no weapon swap, is to have one weapon set melee and the other ranged. Power Mesmer has this option with Sword/whatever and Greatsword. Depending on your reaction time, vision, and whether you’re doing content with a group of greater than 4 other players, seeing the things you need to evade, block, etc. can be a problem. The flexibility inherent in having both ranged and melee options gives you the opportunity to melee when you can, and still contribute when you can’t. This works fine in open world, but is not good advice in meta groups for instanced content. There’ you’ll be expected to use the weapons for the meta build, and position where the group needs you.

Linken.6345:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Perhaps those talking about dungeon skins being available outside of dungeons might consider that that availability is in the other two game modes, not elsewhere in PvE.

So no reason legendary armor cant be provided in spvp and wvw reward tracks aswell.
Dont see what point your post bring to the discussion at all mate.

If that’s where you want to see it, then it certainly does not apply to your point. I doubt that’s true of everyone, so there’s a point.

Perhaps those talking about dungeon skins being available outside of dungeons might consider that that availability is in the other two game modes, not elsewhere in PvE.

The LS maps that preceded HoT (Dry Top and Silverwastes) included Hero Challenges valued at 1 HP, the same as those in core GW2. What i find interesting is that the LS maps after HoT have no Hero Challenges. My guess at this point is that ANet will move away from Hero Challenges, and there will be a new method to unlock any Elite Specs that ship with XPac 2. If we look at ANet’s history, that would likely lead to Proofs bring yet another currency limited to a specific thing, and the introduction of a new currency for WvW-only players to get the new specs.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

I really, really don’t think you will find the new post-HoT content better than the HoT expansion was. I’m afraid that pretty much everything in the LS3 episodes has been recognisably similar to the HoT content, and strongly suggests that is the path of the xpac.

o.O

I can’t really speak to Lake Doric or the new zone, but I do not find Bloodstone Fen, Ember Bay or Bitterfrost Frontier to be at all like HoT. Navigation is easy to learn and straightforward, mobs rarely appear in excessive numbers, meta events are not so complex that people flock to the one organized map, and exploration does not include HC’s with Champions. To my mind, the LS3 maps, at least the three I’ve explored to a greater degree, are in many ways a pendulum swing away from the most common complaints about HoT maps.

Ayrilana.1396:

IndigoSundown.5419:

My primary interest in letting my dislike for adventures be known is that I want ANet to be aware of my thoughts for new content going forward. So, I’d prefer either:

• New adventures be made for those players who like mini-games, but that the rewards be intrinsic, like the XP and “free” rare Healix alludes to, rather than extrinsic, like collection requirements.

or

• ANet not add any more adventures to the game.

Frankly, my preference would be the first option, as I have no wish to deny mini-games to those who want them, but if ANet cannot get behind the idea of not linking progression rewards or alternatives to ascended crafting to game content in which I do not get to play my character’s build, then the latter option would be acceptable.

Disclaimer: ANet will do what it wants, but they have made changes to their approach before based on player feedback, so I’m providing mine. I am not claiming that I speak for anyone but myself.

What if they had their very own unique skins that you could earn instead of mastery points?

I’d be perfectly fine with that. A skin unique to an adventure would be an intrinsic reward. At that point, it would be no different to any other unique skin attached to specific content, and people would have the choice of whether gaining the skin was worth doing the content.

Yakez.7561:

1. Desert Borderlands
- Just bad map design overall
- No gliding, why?

I don’t think they wanted paratrooper attacks to bypass keep defenses.

Yakez.7561:

EoTM
- Is there any point in this map after skirmish update?

Given that the original point was to give people waiting in queues a place to run around in a competitive map, and that the skirmish update has restored queues to a daily occurrence, it would seem to have more of a purpose than it has for some time.

My primary interest in letting my dislike for adventures be known is that I want ANet to be aware of my thoughts for new content going forward. So, I’d prefer either:

• New adventures be made for those players who like mini-games, but that the rewards be intrinsic, like the XP and “free” rare Healix alludes to, rather than extrinsic, like collection requirements.

or

• ANet not add any more adventures to the game.

Frankly, my preference would be the first option, as I have no wish to deny mini-games to those who want them, but if ANet cannot get behind the idea of not linking progression rewards or alternatives to ascended crafting to game content in which I do not get to play my character’s build, then the latter option would be acceptable.

Disclaimer: ANet will do what it wants, but they have made changes to their approach before based on player feedback, so I’m providing mine. I am not claiming that I speak for anyone but myself.

AliamRationem.5172:

IndigoSundown.5419:

AliamRationem.5172:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

If you say you can’t do it, don’t do it, but that’s not a game problem. Those points get done every day multiple times a day and probably multiple times an hour. They’re not impossible and most of them aren’t hard, and several of the champs are soloable.

If you can’t do it, and you won’t do an HP train and you won’t ask in map chat, and you won’t have a friend join you, I find myself wondering why that’s the game’s problem.

It’s a problem for the game because the people who are complaining want game play to be convenient. It’s not about doable v. not-doable, it’s about convenient versus inconvenient. If you think convenience is not a major factor in how players view games, you have not been paying attention.

CptAurellian.9537:

I did HoT hero challenges something like two months ago on my warr and had exactly zero problems finding a few guys for each of the champ HPs. If using LFG or asking in map chat is viewed as too difficult, than that’s a confession of failure for the community.

Is that a failure for the community, or is it an artifact of MMO’s trying to expand their customer base by attracting players who don’t want the same things as many of the original MMO playerbase does?

---

It seems like ANet is trying to please as many people as possible to keep them around. Once you start thinking that way, the question becomes, “What is gained versus what is lost?” As I see it, no one who really likes what HoT offers is going to leave the game if a few Champion HC’s that they’ve undoubtedly done many times are down-graded to vets as long as ANet continues to add engaging content going forward. Compare that to the numbers who’ve posted (which usually means there are many more who don’t post) who think that HoT was a rip-off which they find annoying and inconvenient.

Players who dislike HoT aren’t going to suddenly enjoy it because a few hero challenges were downgraded to veterans. However, players like myself who love HoT and routinely go back to these maps just to run around doing events and hero challenges (the champions give loot chests daily) would likely consider it a much bigger deal. Believe it or not, I have my favorites and I go back to them again and again (and help others defeat them in the process!).

As has been rehashed many times before, there are plenty of hero challenges available to unlock the elite spec without having to deal with the tougher champion hero challenges (e.g. mushroom queen, balthazar, broodmother). Downgrading only some of them is unlikely to have a great impact on players who dislike champion hero challenges because their issue is not being unable to unlock the elite, but rather being unable to map complete without assistance and unable to unlock the elite without practically exploring the whole jungle looking for the low-hanging fruit hero challenges.

In short, I think this is a suggestion that is a well-intentioned compromise, but ultimately would produce little benefit at some cost to the players who genuinely love HoT.

See, I think there would be a lot more benefit with little loss. However, another alternative would be that the Champion HC’s could offer two options — one would be a commune, the other would proc the Champion. Doubtless there will be objections to that, too. I suppose it would be instructive, though. Just how many would take the path of least resistance and how many want to fight the champ.

If you provided proper incentives based on the concept of effort vs. reward, who cares? Of course, some players would then insist that they are being forced to solo champions in order to receive the reward (duh?). What can you do?

As it is, the bag for repeating the champ HC’s is no better, and might be worse, than the bad for finishing the random vet events ANet added in 4/2016. Obviously, there would be no reward bag for communing, just the HP.

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Because raids in most games are about rewards in addition to challenge, and there are two factors.

1. The reward must be the best of its type (usually gear stats) the game offers, at least in PvE.
2. Some players who raid look for prestige to be had by displaying the raid reward.

All of those games are raid-centric, so they should not be used as an example of “what things should like” in GW2.
In those games the reward for raids have to be the best, because raids are considered to be the most important content of said games. That assumption is supposedly not true in GW2.

Most important? Not necessarily. Raids fill a niche in MMO’s. They are certainly the most important content to raiders, both elsewhere and in GW2. They are considerably less important, or not important at all, to those who don’t care for them. They still get exclusive and better rewards, even when only the by-now mythical 5% did them.

What was supposedly not true was that GW2 would not have raids, not that raids would not be the most important content. That went by the wayside when ANet decided to try to keep those who want harder instanced content. The game has changed a lot since it launched.

When ANet decided to add harder-than-dungeons group instanced content, they chose to call this content “raids.” That word has meaning to MMO consumers. That meaning includes exclusive and better rewards. It’s part of the package. Not only that, ANet accepted the better/exclusive rewards expectation for raids.

I get that you don’t like this state of affairs. By now, anyone who reads this board gets it. That said, appeals to ANet’s old philosophy (or wrongly supposed philosophy in this case) are unlikely to work any better for you than they did for those who bought into the “best statistical gear by level 80” statements.

AliamRationem.5172:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

If you say you can’t do it, don’t do it, but that’s not a game problem. Those points get done every day multiple times a day and probably multiple times an hour. They’re not impossible and most of them aren’t hard, and several of the champs are soloable.

If you can’t do it, and you won’t do an HP train and you won’t ask in map chat, and you won’t have a friend join you, I find myself wondering why that’s the game’s problem.

It’s a problem for the game because the people who are complaining want game play to be convenient. It’s not about doable v. not-doable, it’s about convenient versus inconvenient. If you think convenience is not a major factor in how players view games, you have not been paying attention.

CptAurellian.9537:

I did HoT hero challenges something like two months ago on my warr and had exactly zero problems finding a few guys for each of the champ HPs. If using LFG or asking in map chat is viewed as too difficult, than that’s a confession of failure for the community.

Is that a failure for the community, or is it an artifact of MMO’s trying to expand their customer base by attracting players who don’t want the same things as many of the original MMO playerbase does?

---

It seems like ANet is trying to please as many people as possible to keep them around. Once you start thinking that way, the question becomes, “What is gained versus what is lost?” As I see it, no one who really likes what HoT offers is going to leave the game if a few Champion HC’s that they’ve undoubtedly done many times are down-graded to vets as long as ANet continues to add engaging content going forward. Compare that to the numbers who’ve posted (which usually means there are many more who don’t post) who think that HoT was a rip-off which they find annoying and inconvenient.

Players who dislike HoT aren’t going to suddenly enjoy it because a few hero challenges were downgraded to veterans. However, players like myself who love HoT and routinely go back to these maps just to run around doing events and hero challenges (the champions give loot chests daily) would likely consider it a much bigger deal. Believe it or not, I have my favorites and I go back to them again and again (and help others defeat them in the process!).

As has been rehashed many times before, there are plenty of hero challenges available to unlock the elite spec without having to deal with the tougher champion hero challenges (e.g. mushroom queen, balthazar, broodmother). Downgrading only some of them is unlikely to have a great impact on players who dislike champion hero challenges because their issue is not being unable to unlock the elite, but rather being unable to map complete without assistance and unable to unlock the elite without practically exploring the whole jungle looking for the low-hanging fruit hero challenges.

In short, I think this is a suggestion that is a well-intentioned compromise, but ultimately would produce little benefit at some cost to the players who genuinely love HoT.

See, I think there would be a lot more benefit with little loss. However, another alternative would be that the Champion HC’s could offer two options — one would be a commune, the other would proc the Champion. Doubtless there will be objections to that, too. I suppose it would be instructive, though. Just how many would take the path of least resistance and how many want to fight the champ.

Heibi.4251:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Zalavaaris.5329:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Avigrus.2871:

Just add these items to PvE to stop the whining.

Complainers of this sort will just find something else to complain about. Caving to the complaints only sets a precedent for the next time. It’s one reason why we see entitled demands so much.

I get the frustration behind your comment. However, PvE-preference players with “gotta get it now” attitudes should think about why it’s good for the health of the game for some rewards to be put into other modes. Not that I expect all such people to get it, but maybe some do.

Not wanting to play 40 hours a week for a year to get a reward =\= wanting it now

Thanks for proving my point. Maybe, just maybe pip acquisition is at it is to reward people who’ve been playing WvW for years with little reward. The fact that someone who hasn’t put in that time in the mode can get it with — in many cases — a lot less of a time commitment than many of those WvW vets have already put in is already more than fair. If the time needed is too much for you, then maybe, just maybe, this reward is not for you.

One of the things that ANeT removed from the game that used to be at the vendor in WvW is the WVW EXP potions. You should complain to them for removing those. It was a quick to gain Ranks back in the day.

As for complaining about the number of pips received by veteran players, you should direct your goal to raising the number of basic pips you receive before ranks. Do that instead of trying to bring down other players and maybe you might garner support from veterans who see this thread as non-wvw players trying to get pips easily instead of putting in the work we’ve done. ANeT actually made ranks mean something, other than a target for the enemy to take down.

I’m a Mithril Assaulter(around 4250 rank) – I play all modes except pvp. I also have nearly 28500 AP. I played primarily pve up until 2 years ago. I dabbled in WvW when I had the time. Whenever new content is released WvW becomes secondary. But needless to say, I’ve put in my time, earned my rank and command 3-4 times a week. For the OP to come in and say that high ranked players shouldn’t get the bonuses ANeT has set is a complete insult to all who have put in hours playing WvW. Like I said, the OP should argue for more basic pip points not the bringing down of players to his/her level.

I agree, but why address me? I’m on the, “Pip differential is OK as is.” side.

Zalavaaris.5329:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Avigrus.2871:

Just add these items to PvE to stop the whining.

Complainers of this sort will just find something else to complain about. Caving to the complaints only sets a precedent for the next time. It’s one reason why we see entitled demands so much.

I get the frustration behind your comment. However, PvE-preference players with “gotta get it now” attitudes should think about why it’s good for the health of the game for some rewards to be put into other modes. Not that I expect all such people to get it, but maybe some do.

Not wanting to play 40 hours a week for a year to get a reward =\= wanting it now

Thanks for proving my point. Maybe, just maybe pip acquisition is as it is to reward people who’ve been playing WvW for years with little reward. The fact that someone who hasn’t put in that time in the mode can get it with — in many cases — a lot less of a time commitment than many of those WvW vets have already put in is already more than fair. If the time needed is too much for you, then maybe, just maybe, this reward is not for you.

Mystic Angelique.4021:

Unhappy being lock of contents , the argument here if we could get legendary weapon off black lion trading post why not legendary Armour.

Because raids in most games are about rewards in addition to challenge, and there are two factors.

1. The reward must be the best of its type (usually gear stats) the game offers, at least in PvE.
2. Some players who raid look for prestige to be had by displaying the raid reward.

If Legendary Armor was sellable, both of those reasons would be invalidated. Also, you might note that the second iterations of Legendary Weapons are account bound also. This is largely because Anet paid heed to comments that there was no prestige to be had in first tier Legendary Weapons because one never knew if they were obtained via play or via credit card.

AliamRationem.5172:

I think you’re forgetting what it was like to encounter these enemies unprepared. It isn’t just the shadowleapers, although they are probably the best example: highly mobile, evasive enemies with potent ranged offensive capabilities. There are many enemies in HoT that are simply more dangerous than what you encounter in Orr.

Shadowleapers are the most egregious example. Their evasion mechanic seems to offer no counter-play. At least, I haven’t found a way to deal with it other than to wait it out. It just seems to proc periodically, and run on a timer. I’ve even ambushed some before they aggro (i.e., it’s just walking on a path) and I get the “Miss” message. That part I find to be counter-intuitive. Sure, the unknown is always a factor. When the revamped Risen and Krait were new, there was just as much outrage over Vet Risen Nobles and Krait Hypnos as there was over Mordrem Snipers,

I didn’t start playing GW2 until after HoT released, and I remember doing quite well in Orr with my first 80 (a dagger/pistol thief running a shadow arts build). I also remember entering the jungle for the first time and falling flat on my face.

Of all the complaints about the lack of difficulty with core mobs, the one Anet looked to address with HoT was the lack of need in core to adjust one’s build or one’s approach to encounters. That’s why a lot of HoT mobs have mechanics that can be countered by character abilities that most don’t bother with in core. However, once you remove that as a factor, most HoT mobs don’t really do more damage than some core mobs. Higher-tier Risen Nobles and any Krait Hypnos can kill you just as much as a Shadowleaper or Chak Zapper, it’s just that their mechanic (AoE fields in both cases) is something that any player who leveled a character in core has seen many times. More Hot mob mechanics are designed to be countered by something other than dodge, and that’s much rarer in core.

Don’t get me wrong. I love HoT. If I had to list my top three favorite maps in the game there’s no question: 1. TD, 2. VB, 3. AB. I can’t get enough of maps like this! But it’s precisely because of those complex, layered maps and challenging combat that these maps are my favorites.

What does that say for people who dislike the combat and the layouts? Are they wrong? I’m not sure there’s much to be gained from trying to convince people that this is simply a natural progression as if it invalidates their preferences. It doesn’t. They like what they like just as I like what I like.

No, there’s no right or wrong in this. Game PvE combat is always going to involve a learning curve unless it’s designed to be a no-brainer. However, when you look at mob numbers (i.e., how much damage they do versus how much damage you need to do to defeat them), there has been a natural progression, even without LS2. Where the gap is is in the need for a more varied — and different — response to mob abilities in HoT than in core.

Vayne.8563:

If you say you can’t do it, don’t do it, but that’s not a game problem. Those points get done every day multiple times a day and probably multiple times an hour. They’re not impossible and most of them aren’t hard, and several of the champs are soloable.

If you can’t do it, and you won’t do an HP train and you won’t ask in map chat, and you won’t have a friend join you, I find myself wondering why that’s the game’s problem.

It’s a problem for the game because the people who are complaining want game play to be convenient. It’s not about doable v. not-doable, it’s about convenient versus inconvenient. If you think convenience is not a major factor in how players view games, you have not been paying attention.

CptAurellian.9537:

I did HoT hero challenges something like two months ago on my warr and had exactly zero problems finding a few guys for each of the champ HPs. If using LFG or asking in map chat is viewed as too difficult, than that’s a confession of failure for the community.

Is that a failure for the community, or is it an artifact of MMO’s trying to expand their customer base by attracting players who don’t want the same things as many of the original MMO playerbase does?

It seems like ANet is trying to please as many people as possible to keep them around. Once you start thinking that way, the question becomes, “What is gained versus what is lost?” As I see it, no one who really likes what HoT offers is going to leave the game if a few Champion HC’s that they’ve undoubtedly done many times are down-graded to vets as long as ANet continues to add engaging content going forward. Compare that to the numbers who’ve posted (which usually means there are many more who don’t post) who think that HoT was a rip-off which they find annoying and inconvenient.

Avigrus.2871:

Just add these items to PvE to stop the whining.

Complainers of this sort will just find something else to complain about. Caving to the complaints only sets a precedent for the next time. It’s one reason why we see entitled demands so much.

I get the frustration behind your comment. However, PvE-preference players with “gotta get it now” attitudes should think about why it’s good for the health of the game for some rewards to be put into other modes. Not that I expect all such people to get it, but maybe some do.

Vayne.8563:

They have something to do. They can do what you’d do in a temple in Orr. Stand by the point until someone does it. That’s how I get temples in Orr. If you’re telling me someone can solo complete the entire game without waiting for events in Orr I’d agree with you.

They’d have to wait for about five hero points in the same way. it’s simply not that big a deal…people are making it a big deal. Many many casual even solo players have done this. It’s not hard.

It is jumping through hoops just a bit…but this is just an overstatement. Saying it’s not something to do because you have to jump through hoops isn’t really true. Everyone can do it. They can’t do it solo any more they they could solo temple of Lyssa or Grenth. They have to wait for people. It’s different, but not so different…except that you need less people and can start on your schedule.

Edit: Even easeir, those on a US server can contact me in game and they’d get them just by going around with me, which I’ve offered on numerous occassions. Some people have taken me up on it, but surprisingly few, considering how many people have complained about not being able to do it.

There are a bit more than 5 champion HC’s in HoT. There are 3 in VB and 6 in AB (I didn’t count Balthazar because it’s a commune and it is hypothetically possible to go in and commune when the champ has been defeated even if you didn’t participate). I don’t know how many of the 11 HC’s in TD are Champs, though I’ve seen at least 3.

There’s also a big difference between Orr and HoT. In Orr, if you cannot get an HC in a temple or near a statue, you can just go do something else, or come back another time and lo and behold the temple got done. In fact, since mega server arrived, I see temples in Orr done 7 times in 10 that I go near them or pass a statue. In HoT, you cannot come back later and find the HC uncontested because finishing it means beating the Champion.

Regardless of how many have done it, or how easy it is or isn’t, the real issue is the psychology of gamers. Many players are easily put off. Convenience is so big an issue that people downgrade games if convenience feature X is not available. The mentality that the overarching desire for convenience creates is one in which people will just blow off things to do if it is inconvenient for them. It’s why we see so many complaints about HC’s, Mastery points, navigating HoT and many other things (grind, for instance). Having to put too much thought and effort into a game is more than a lot of people care to do. Those are the people who are getting turned off.

Now, maybe gaming in general, and MMO gaming in particular, was better back when people had to put a lot more effort into their games. It was certainly better for players who like games that require more thought and effort, and that offered more challenge. The thing is, though, that once WoW went more mainstream, games have been getting less intense, and more convenient, because that’s what that larger audience seems to prefer.

1. Tangled Depths: Way too much “Can’t get there from here.”
2. Dry Top: See above. Also, I find the events to be among the most boring in the game.
3. Metrica Province: Too many Asura. Also, the map is large, aesthetically flat and unintersting.
4. Edge of the Mists: chasing a Dorito around this map seems designed to frustrate, and getting anything done without the zerg is a limited proposition.
5. Fireheart Rise: too much burned stuff to be aesthetically interesting, and the rewards fpr the map event chains are poor enough that no one seems to do them unless they want to open CoF or the zone is daily event task.

Aesthetics:

1. Timberline Falls
2. Frostgorge Sound
3. Divinity’s Reach
4. Malchor’s Leap
5. Mount Maelstrom

Gameplay:

1. Bloodstone Fen
2. Verdant Brink
3. Cursed Shore

Only listing three for gameplay. There are far too many other maps that would be tied with a “not bad but not that memorable” tag. Then there are the ones that I’d put in the other thread the OP referred to.