Guild Wars 2

@Chaith

/offer handshake/ I agree. It’s what ANET should do about it that is important. On that we are in full accord.

Sadly though, if I fail to make Ruby this season I’d need to make Diamond next season. Since that’s unrealistic, ( I’m in T4 Sapphire with over 500 games this season, ) I’m putting in insane hours trying to overcome the current system.

I’m gratified that you agree that the system is “bad.” Perhaps that will help convince some of the people who are still defending it as “skill based.”

Yes, the matchmaker should be striving for the teams to be as even as possible. On that, we are again in full accord.

@Chaith..

But that’s just the point of this whole thread. The matchmaker IS favoring one side. It’s favoring the side with the most wins. It is deliberately stacking strong players against weak.

This is not competition. The closest thing I can liken it to is wwf “wrestling” with it’s scripted matches.

If the current matchmaking were transferred to ESL: The highest rated team would play the lowest. The next highest rated would play the next lowest. AND IT WOULD STAY THAT WAY FOR THE ENTIRE SEASON, MATCH AFTER MATCH.

Would you consider that competitive? Would it exhibit skill on the part of the season’s winners?

The trouble is that the system isn’t placing people in “there skill level.” It’s a dynamically unstable system that encourages streaks.

The fact that divisions can’t be lost is the only reason we see a population in the middle divisions. Otherwise it would eventually be amber and legendary only.

It’s not right to demand division crossings, then do your best to prevent them. This is more or less what the matchmaker is doing.

I have no experience with LoL. I would 100% support a system balanced around MMR with some conditions;

The matches were actually balanced. That is, the teams were made as even as possible. Anet is deliberately making the teams uneven.

Division Crossing based achievements would need to be removed.

Anti smurfing measures would need to be in place, including no free accounts in leagues. They don’t get HoT, why should they be allowed in leagues? That’s particularly true since it’s clear that high level players are returning to the lower ranks on ftp accounts.

@Mewreon

Your suggestion would simply make the problem worse. Dropping divisions would highly frustrate the players.

In addition, it would have a strong tendency to depopulate the middle of the pack. That would force the matchmaker to expand it’s range ever further.. That would result in even more unbalanced matches. We’d see Diamond v. Emerald very quickly.

Safety nets aren’t the problem. The system as it stands is “dynamically unstable.” As I explained in another post; The system reinforces trends. The further you get from a 50/50 win rate the harder the system pushes you to have win or loss streaks.

I can’t think of a single instance in which a dynamically unstable system, ( beyond the classic “ball on top of a cone” example, ) is desirable.

Suppose we waited however long it took for such a system to “balance out” with droppable divisions. (I’m assuming that players would keep coming to the game.)
You would see few if any players at 50% w/l rates. You would also see few if any players in Sapphire.

The result would be extreme matches. The matchmaker would be forced to draw players from the ends of the spectrum to continue making one team stronger than the other.

The solution is to emulate most competition systems. If you win, you get a harder match next time. If you lose, you get an easier match next time. ANET does the opposite and the results demonstrate that it is not the right logic.

@Baest (and therefore in direct reply and on-topic, since the question is relevant to my assertions in this thread)

My game play isn’t the issue. I’ve been teaming and boosted into Diamond where I play adequately if not great.

I will not post a video of my game play. I did that last season. After doing so, I was asked to kill myself in RL. The player was apparently annoyed to see me on his team. These kind of comments continued for a week or so.

There was some good feedback and I improved my game as a result. Overall though, it wasn’t worth the price.

I am certain that I did help a lot of people advance. Any number of times I’ve seen the same opponents in successive matches.

Sadly, the population is low enough that they never got out of matchmaking range. So, I got fed to them over and over.

I can’t say that I feel in any way noble or good about it, though.

Quite a few posters have complained that the current league system is “grindable.” There’s often a concomitant argument that “MMR Hell” does not exist.

Both are false. It’s very clear that the casual players the legendary backpack was meant to attract had no chance of winning it.

ANET, you need to do two things: Revert matchmaking to unranked style and discourage free accounts from participating in leagues.

That’s 500+ games folks in this season alone:

ANET would argue that refreshing MMR would be “unfair” to those with high mmr.

The counter argument is that it’s “unfair” to the people with low MMR not to.Since anet has chosen to deliberately stack unfair matches .. if you have a low MMR you will continue to have bad matches and sink.

No serious competition venue in the world deliberately sets unfair matches.

The argument is that the matches will eventually level out; At some point only a given skill level will remain in a given range. Hence, the matches will be fair.

This is flawed because:

People smurf on free accounts, thereby bypassing the system.

The low population forces the match maker to expand it’s search range. Therefore the level out effect, if any, is cancelled.

Most importantly.. the thinking is inherently cruel. “The lower ranked players ought to be happy to suffer for the first 2/3 of the season. That way, the upper ranked players can feel that they are skillful and exclusively matched with people they feel are adequately skilled.”

“Beside that, giving our ‘high tier’ players rolfstomps makes them feel that they are strong players.”

I think the strongest argument against stacking unfair matches is that it simply isn’t working.

I have just under 500 matches this season and am t4 Sapphire. The leagues are NOT grindable unless you went in with a good MMR and got favored matches.

Yes I play on NA. I’m usually online most of the night and into the morning.

@Shion

My perception is based on direct observation over the course of nearly 500 games this season.

The match maker picks 10 people. Of those, it makes two teams of 5. One is deliberately made stronger than the other. So, your idea doesn’t wash.

@Jourdelune

I’m not sure what to make of your post. You agree, then claim I am “simply QQing.”

It would be a very interesting experiment to make a new free account and play it. I believe I would do well.

I just don’t have the time. 490 games into the season, I’m still stuck in Sapphire. If I do not make Ruby.. I’d need to make diamond next season.

With this matchmaking my chances are razor thin as it is and I can’t afford the experiment.

@StickerHappy

The point is that if you are a high MMR player, the matchmaker is likely to put you on the side it has chosen as the probable winner. Hence, you are likely to win and have winning streaks. This is known as “positive feedback.”

Conversely if you lose, or have a low mmr, the matchmaker will assign you to the team it expects to lose. Hence, you are likely to lose. This lead to being placed on more teams selected to lose. In other words, “negative feedback.” ( well, speaking literally, this is also positive feedback in a negative direction )

Because the system is set up in such a way as to reinforce streaks, (by assigning players to unbalanced teams ) it can be said to have “negative dynamic stability.” That is.. the further it gets away from the mid point the more it tends to move away from balance.

The system is expressly designed in a manner that resists balanced matches ( a 50/50 win ratio.) I can’t think of a situation in which negative dynamic stability is good. I think the results of this season and the posts in this forum bear me out.

Your anecdotal evidence doesn’t disprove this. I said “likely” and not every time.

I’d be happy to play unranked and improve my MMR. Sadly, the shiny requires playing in ranked. At my current win rate, there is no way I will be able to cross 4 divisions.

The matchmaker is making matches with one team deliberately stronger than the other. Such matches would not be permitted in many competition venues.

In ANET PvP this is referred to as “competitive.”

The wings and the associated seasons were to bring in new players to PvP. What has actually happened is that those new players have been used as cannon fodder.

I strongly suspect that these PvP seasons will cause a net reduction in PvP population.

Actually, I personally played reasonably well. In my own estimation ( admittedly ) I was of similar skill to my teammates.

@Starbreaker

You’ve clearly missed the point. The bottom line is that matches are being deliberately set up in a way that’s unfair. That is not competition or sport.

In addition, I’m not the only one. This type of matchmaking will alienate a large number of players, precisely the opposite of the what was intended for the wings.

I have changed profession, trained with an expert and teamed with high ranking players..I’m also approaching 500 games this season alone.

I’ve done my part. Now I need fair matches. That really isn’t unreasonable to ask.

So, I teamed up with a (diamond rank) player whom I know to be good. Here’s my recent match history. These matches are simply so far out of whack that it might not be possible to overcome. The one victory was prior to the team up.

Sadly, ANET has chosen a matchmaking system that will keep many players out of “legendary.” This was supposed to make the rank prestigious.

Prestige means exclusivity. That in turn means low population. The population means poor matches and long queues.

Decisions have a ripple effect. ANET tried to increase pvp population by bringing in relatively casual players. This was a good idea.

Sadly, ANET also tried to please established players by making upper ranks exclusive.

These two goals are mutually antagonistic. Predictably, both failed.

@Ross Biddle

Congratulations I guess. How is that on topic? In my view you started with good mmr and you got favored matches as a result.

Favoring one side is not “competition” and it’s definitely not “fun.” So yes, you are one of those having a good time this season.. I’m getting consistently unfavored matches.

@Ross Biddle

I have returned several messages about teamups. It hasn’t happened yet.

Second, I just came from a game in which we were stomped 500-0. The Lord Helseth himself wouldn’t have been able to carry our side against that kind of matchmaking.I have dueled against Supcutie.. and we’d have lost with him on our side too.

-edit- Although, with either Helseth’s or Supcutie’s mmr, this match would never have been setup or I’d have been placed on the easy win side.

My point is that the odds are being set really very steep. In addition with every pre-programmed loss, they get steeper.

While there are skill issues, I have taken time and training to be an Auramancer Ele. I don’t claim to be a hot player, but I understand the fundamentals and can play. Now, I need a match in which I’m not constantly simply trying to survive.

Again the point of this thread. Every serious competition venue strives for even contests. Bear with me while I give a couple of anecdotal examples:

The largest and fastest boats almost never win Sidney to Hobart. All the boats are racing against an index.Basically, they’re racing against a perfectly sailed shadow of themselves. So it becomes a contest of sailing to one’s own best ability and not just a walkover for the “gold platers.”

The Rolex Sidney to Hobart is among the most hotly contested races in the world, surpassing the America’s Cup. Every boxing day it draws a huge audience around the globe.

TLDR? Start here

In International Chess, the rating system is quite similar to what ANET is supposedly using.

As a relatively new player, I was matched against a master rated player in one tournament. I knew going in that I had no realistic chance and indeed he actually made me take back one move and explained why it was wrong. He stomped me as expected.

My rating actually rose after that match. I was given bonus rating points for the bad matchup.

Had it been anet, I’d have not only lost rating points… my next match would be against a grand master rated player as punishment. That’s not logical.. but it is what is happening.

Since I am playing on my alt, I’m not getting the PMs. I’m hoping Ithilwen’s mmr will heal or reset if I leave her inactive long enough.

I’ll see what I can do about contacting those players in-game and will gratefully accept there help.

@Archon

Yes, GW2 is a mental game. I wish it were more so and less about “button speed.” I’ll take that offer. I’m playing on my alt, letting Ithilwen’s mmr heal ( I hope .)

@stickerHappy

I beg to differ. GW1 was and is a vastly solo game, unless you count henchies and speedbookers. GW2 can be mostly enjoyed solo. This “team game” idea rolled in with HoT. In my view it harms the game.

Witness the recent patch that had to set loot to individual players like gw1. This was in one of the Maguuma events. Players were competing so hard for the loot and unwilling to share that many were simply left out in the cold. That’s what “cooperative gaming” leads to.

@stickerHappy

Should I understand from your post that if I don’t have friends or a team I am not worthy? I come to GW2 to escape.. and find it more stressful than rl.

Do I really need to be a social networking ninja to win a few games?

No, PvP should not be about who gets the good teamups.

You’d still have the problem of high ranking players trolling on alt accounts.

In addition, it would make it even harder to win the ascension.. which would further undercut any appeal it has left.

The idea that this matchmaking will ever level out is disproven by two seasons. It’s time for anet to own that it doesn’t work.

It’s not logical to reinforce losing streaks, then require wins. No serious competition venue anywhere deliberately sets up unfair matches.

In Chess, I once actually rose in rating after losing to a master ranked player. I went in knowing I was going to lose because I was heavily outclassed.

The same glicko system that anet allegedly works from awarded me a bonus as compensation for having been placed in a bad match. If it were anet, I’d have lost rating and been matched against a grand master as punishment for having lost.

If the goal is truly to test player skill, ALL ranked matches should be solo queue. This is becoming more about social networking than actual player skills.

The Ascension is a major reason a large portion of the people in pvp are playing ranked at all. Why else would I put up with a system expressly designed to make unfair matches and to reinforce losing streaks?

I would support removing all safety nets except:

The achievements require crossing divisions. I’l bet you a pretty stack of money that the first thing that would happen is players would get to Emerald, throw matches to be Ambers again. Cross into Emerald.. rinse and repeat.

Removing safetly nets would make it even more obvious that the wings are being withheld as much as possible.. turning off even more pve/casual players. This would hurt PvP which is already bleeding.

It wouldn’t solve the problem of high ranking players trolling lower ranks on alt accounts. If anything it would make it worse.

Group me with players of my own skill level? YES, PLEASE.

The matchmaking is deliberately unfair. That’s wrong and that’s the point of this thread.

In truth, I’m venting. I’m working on 8 straight losses this morning. 3 of those were roflstomps against the same team.

I’m being used as cannon fodder and I don’t like it.

Here’s my recent match history. It’s pretty crystal clear that I am being consistently overmatched. Yet, somehow I’m supposed to win 5 in a row? That’s laughable.

I’m running a healer ele. In many matches it doesn’t do a lot of good. At the launch of one recent game I ran for mid… then I checked my minimap. 3 of my teammates had run for Svanir, who hadn’t arrived yet. That’s when I heard the tolling of the bell. Less than 30 seconds into the match.

That’s kind of the point of my original post. I’ve worked excessively hard. Now it looks very much like I won’t make it, even with a full season to go.

@Ross et al

I have no real expectation of change. I have no real expectation that the devs are listening. I’m just venting to keep the emotion of 38 straight losses under control.

With so many losses, I know going into every match that the matchmaker has chosen me as one of the punching bags on the side scheduled to lose. That hurts.

In professional ball sports, when a team does well, it gets a harder schedule the next season. A team that does poorly gets an easier schedule. That’s the way it should be and it ensures that no one team becomes the whip toy.

The matchmaking that tries to make winners win more and losers lose more is suitable for reality TV. It’s the opposite of a real competitive system.

@Zynt and in direct reply,on topic.

I really do enjoy PvP when it’s good.

The reason I want the wings? First I’ve invested a lot of time and effort trying to get them and I don’t want to see it wasted. At this point I have over 400 ranked games in this season alone.

Second, I started this slog in good faith, 2 1/2 seasons ago, to get the wings that were for “everyone.” It’s a matter of principle.

@Pakkazull

Your quote makes the point.

“When the PvP League season begins, everyone will have an opportunity to follow the Path of the Ascension to earn the new PvP legendary backpiece.”

It says “everyone.” No, it doesn’t say anyone. This is almost a tautology. In any case, anyone is included in everyone.

Let’s continue… “You don’t need to be the most skilled player to earn it, but highly skilled players will find that they can progress through the Path of the Ascension faster.”

It does not say “only those who are worthy” or anything of the kind. The backpack was clearly not presented as something for elite players only.

@Pyriall

I would have no issue with dropping a division except: The backpack requires crossing divisions.

If divisions were allowed to drop, what would stop the farmers from simply throwing a game at the bottom of Emerald.? They drop into amber.. They then get an easy crossing back into Emerald, rinse and repeat.

The other issue is that it would raise the frustration level even higher.

It would be easier and more effective to set the matchmaker to give even teams and even chances of victory.

@Chaith Again, thank you. Your blessing is more significant than the screenshot.

@Starbreaker The point of this thread is twofold; First, the wings were advertised as available to everyone. They should therefore be available to everyone. My case illustrates that they are not.

Second, the matchmaker is stacking sides with one side expected to win. That is not logical and it’s producing rather extreme results. It should therefore be fixed.

@Chaith

Thank you for the compliment. By implication you agree that I am not in fact playing badly enough to justify a win rate that is dipping under 20%.

That is pretty much the point of this thread.

@Chaith

This is my most recent match. I am too tired to continue playing. I present it as evidence that I am not playing badly. THEREFORE THIS POST IS ON TOPIC. I’m the blue ele.

@Hunter

The wings were to be available to anyone. I’ve worked harder for them than most and therefore, I do deserve them.

In addition, the point of this thread is that the matchmaking is setting me ( and many others ) deliberately to lose. Hence, my atrocious record.

-edit- OK I simply can’t play anymore.. having started yesterday evening. To show that the issue is not me but is matchmaking :

Note, I’m second in personal score. I did over 1/2 million in damage. I provided my teammates 325,000 + in healing, 361 boons and removed 349 conditions. I have heard ESL pros talk about 500,000 damage as a good number. No, the issue here is not me.

There have been several claims that I must simply be bad. In direct response to that ( AND DIRECTLY ON TOPIC ) Here’s my stats from one of my 34 losses today.

There’s nothing “bad” about my output and contribution to the team.. though in this case I probably could have provided more heal. That’s nearly 1/2 a million damage for the match and healthy healing output.

I’m nearly out of energy and ready to log for the day. Here’s my results since I started this thread yesterday. That’s 33 losses and 5 wins.. or approximately 15.2% wins. The vast majority of those by ROFLSTOMP.

I’ve done my part.. I’ve worked as hard or harder than most. This matchmaking is not right.

@ Evan Lesh

With all due respect, the long queue’s are not the result of a server reset.

Here’s my latest match, for which I waited 11 minutes. I’m the blue Ele. This isn’t competition. ANET needs to provide fair matches.

The “legendary” players are simply re-rolling as ambers and farming the ranks again. I posted screenshots last season of an ESL player running an alt in emerald over a 6 hour period.

Personally I think it would be much better if they did in fact stop playing at legendary and let the rest of us advance instead of trolling.

The legendary wings were advertised as available to everyone. It follows that everyone should have been able to get them.

I’ve put in excessive effort and may well not make it. The PVE people that the wings were meant to attract had no chance to begin with.

The matchmaker is set up specifically to deny the prize that was offered. How is that likely to affect PvP population?Will PVE players be encouraged to come learn PvP? Or will they never come back after being steamrolled a bunch of times?

@MarkoNS

Nothing would please me more than to be in the tier I “deserve” with similar skilled players.

Sadly, the prize demands that I climb into tiers I don’t “deserve” while the matchmaker does it’s best to prevent me from doing so.

That’s dysfunctional, which is kind of the point I’m trying to make.

I have fulfilled all but one requirement for the wings. At only 377 games this season, I’ve taken it relatively easy it is true.

My current 22.3% Win rate is up from a low approaching 18%. That took a great deal of effort.

I’ve put in near employement hours in bursts into GW2 PvP during 3 seasons. In the course of it I’ve learned to have some basic ability in two new professions.

Still, the chances are rather slim to non existent that I can pass 4 divisions in the next 1 1/2 seasons with the matchmaking consistently putting me on the side scheduled to lose.

I’m hardly a casual player. It’s time to acknowledge that the wings really weren’t for “everyone” and that the matchmaking needs a conceptual change.

That’s not true. The matchmaker is deliberately matching teams with one side significantly stronger. That’s kind of the point here.

I am closing this thread. I stand by what I have said.

I am saying that player population is contributory. Further, the player population issue is caused at least in part by the heavily unbalanced matches. It’s a vicious cycle.

No, the main problem is the illogical idea of creating fair matches by deliberately creating unfair matches. It’s clear that the matchmaker is more-or-less picking the winners.

This is a huge issue, because there is a time sensitive prize involved (the wings) that requires getting wins.

You missed the point. The matchmaker is deliberately stacking one team significantly stronger than the other. That is inherently unfair.

The assertion was made that the system would self level, since only players of similar skill levels should remain in a given range.

That idea has failed to pan out. It’s logically unsound and should be abandoned.

Those players have not in fact moved on. The population has been reduced to the point that they are being recycled through a larger and larger pip range. Thus, they get to use me over and over as a punching bag. Advancement doesn’t change it because the matchmaker has to keep expanding the pip range.