Guild Wars 2

@JOSH DAVIS

If you do make a solo/duo queue ( and I sincerely hope this happens ) make sure there is an anti sync mechanic in place. Otherwise, the teams will just hack around it by queue’ing together and exploit the solos.

@Fay

First, I contend that you’re wrong. Supcutie, in his shatter guide for power shatter recommends clone death traits. In fact, you helped promote Lyssa’s Grimoire which contains that guide.

The majority of shatter builds I’ve looked up contained clone death traits.

Antithetical to Phantasm builds? Totally incorrect. Dying clones crippled and bled enemies as well as setting up vulnerability which allowed the phantasm to hit like a truck.

Quite a few phantasm builds contained clone death traits. Osicat’s “Napalm Cat” which I ran in WvW is a good example.

Again, what you are saying is simply incorrect.

As to your idea that the clones and/or phants should be the primary target; They never will be, since killing the Mesmer also destroys the illusions. There’s no reason whatever to focus the illusions.

(There is also very little hope of fooling an experienced player with clones except momentarily)

There might be, if the illusions did enough damage to be a serious threat. That’s not the case though and hasn’t been since the removal of clone death traits.

I don’t find pve boring. You can immerse in the story, be a roving hero, see the world.

It’s really not all about combat.

No, pve enemies aren’t terribly challenging compared to pvp. Still Subject Alpha, Lupi and other creatures are more than capable of smashing a party of 5 flat if they miss the dance steps.

Hear me out, please.

Shatter and Phantasm builds depended on the synergy of clone death.

The cripple made it easier to hit for the shatters and phantasms.

The vulnerability allowed shatters and phantasms to hit hard.

The bleeds were that extra rider that made it all work well for some builds.

Supcutie used and recommended clone death traits. So did most of the other prominent Mesmers of the time. Osicat and Seven Mirrors come to mind. In fact, Supcutie recommends clone death traits in his shatter mesmer guide which is stickied on this forum.

Necromancers have a minion death trait. There’s no reason Mesmers should not have similar.

The clone deaths would punish some of the mindless aoe spam that is a part of every match.

Clone death traits were completely removed from the game after a condi clone death build killed a prominent ANET staffer in pvp.

From that time until the introduction of HoT, Mesmers were basically considered “trash tier.”

The class was designed and intended to work with the synergy of clone death traits. Moreover, a punishment mechanic like that is in keeping with the spirit of the class all the way back to GW1.

It’s time to bring those traits back and in so doing, perhaps bring back power shatter and phantasm builds.

comments?

The fact that clone death traits are no longer available is a major reason that Shatter and Phant builds don’t work well anymore. That cripple on death made it easier to hit a shatter. The vulnerability stacking on death was a big reason shatters had punch.

Phants worked in tandem with sacrificial clones.

Spend some time reviewing Osicat or some of the other prominent video posters.

Supcutie (ESL Pro Mesmer ) recommended clone death traits in his shatter mesmer guide and videos.

The removal of clone death killed the synergy that powered shatter and phantasm builds

Clone death isn’t a passive. It does no damage if the enemy avoids hitting it. It’s a punishment. Yes, I would like to see it back.

NECROMANCERS HAVE MINION DEATH TRAITS, WHY IS IT BAD FOR MESMER?

Think about it, it would force DH and other aoe spammers to think before simply dropping a killing burst.

In many matches, there are so many overlaying aoe and shouts that some of my ele shouts don’t even sound. It’s nearly impossible at times to tell which aoe is friendly or hostile or where that super condi damage is coming from, ( usually a corruption necro trading on the aoe boons.)

If people had to think about whether they wanted to kill clones, it would be similar to the current corruption necro. It would create a penalty for simply blasting button clicks everywhere.

And, yes, I had some success on Mesmer in pvp with clone death traits. (which, by the way, were a major component of shatter and phant builds) I’d like to see it back.

I think that clone death traits should return to the game. That might slow down some of the mindless aoe and aoe interrupt spam.

Mesmer was always a punishment class, all the way back to GW1. Yes, a clone death Mesmer did kill a prominent dev. That doesn’t make it bad.

+1 team queue and solo queue as it was before. If that means that teams have to wait longer to play instead of simply getting to slam solos, so much the better.

I have just come from watching ANET’s 4rth anniversary video. My first character, my Thief on my main account, came into the game approximately 90 days after launch.

The video reminded me of how much I enjoy Tyria in PvE mode. I used to rave to friends about the richness and detail. That’s after 3 completed world tours.. it never gets old.

We get pretty freaking negative in PvP. It’s fast and fun and addictive. But, I think I’ve lost some perspective and fun.

Time to start dividing my time with more in the pve world. It really is a great time.

I support a solo queue 100% In fact, I’d like to see tournaments be all solo queue. I think that would be a much better measure of individual skill.

In the cave, prior to the last fight, Traherne and the other Henchies target Traherne’s elite pets. This can delay getting through the fight and means the henchies are useless part of the time.

FiveGauge.1357:

soulknight.9620:

Atm we have balancing that only top 2% can use. Because no mid-low tier player can comprehend and use the complex system of spvp in gw2.

That’s just a bit silly… balance is out of whack for players who don’t quite know how to always step out of Scrapper/DH point cleave, but these things really don’t take a pro player to figure out, red circles and all.

Conquest is a game mode best played with a group on voice comms, but the number of players in a party is accounted for in the balanced matchmaking.

The PvP in this game is extremely balanced. Frustratingly so, even.

For once I agree with you partly. The balance is close to dead even at the moment. It’s achieved by uncomfortable means and it frustrates players who expected to advance super fast again this season.

Still, GG on the point of balance, ANET. I think you found the best compromise under the current conditions.

-edit- I don’t agree that pvp is “best played” with voice comm and premades. That’s a way to have an overwhelming edge and win extra games… but it is not the “best” way in my opinion. I come to pvp to test myself.. not to play schoolyard games and have to network for teams.

@Fay.2357

Your argument sounds good in theory, but it ignores a basic reality. There aren’t enough players in the various skill bands to run the system the way you are talking about.

( that’s not to even touch on the distortion of skill created by two seasons of stacked matchmaking and the problems of teams carrying people )

Hence, your argument is a non starter.

-edit- I think that the stacked matches may have been an attempt to make and end run around this problem. Unfortunately the “level out” wouldn’t have happened for months or years, if at all. Players used the system to exploit.

I’d also add that this concern with being matched with people who are more or less “good enough for you” is symptomatic of the kinds of attitudes that are helping keep pve players out of pvp.

@Fay.2357

You missed a vital point, namely: If each team comes in with roughly equal chances, then it’s up to the players to decide there own fate. It’s no longer an issue of hoping the server will grant you a winning team. Now it’s up to the players to perform.

That’s exactly a “skill based” system. Players who play above expectations advance. ( I am currently running a little better than a 50% win ratio and advancing slowly )

@Cynz.9437

Cynz, two seasons of stacked matches have resulted in badly distorted MMR. This would be particularly true in the upper divisions. People win streaked and teamed well above there true ability. Now, they are expected to perform much better than they really are.

That’s the explanation for your blowout matches.

The flip flops are the result of low player population. When there are only so many to choose from, you will see the same players repeatedly.

The game is trying to make an even match and I suspect it doesn’t like to repeat matches. So it’s going to mix and match from a relatively small pool.

This is clearly why they want to pick from the whole population.

So, the root problem is low population. ANET attempted to solve that with the legendary wings, but then shot themselves in the foot by trying to prevent people from getting them.

High rewards aren’t going to solve the issue in and of themselves. I recently got an ascended accessory drop after losing a match badly. I couldn’t have cared less about the reward.

I was unaware of pvp/avoided it for the first period I was in GW2. A big step would be to reach out to the pve population. Perhaps a living world episode that included travelling to an arena?

@JOSH DAVIS Here’s an idea for you. Hold pvp matches in the Queen’s Arena in Divinity’s Reach and perhaps at the Arenas in Rata Sum.

This would make matches easy to spectate and perhaps join and would increase the awareness of pvp in the pve world.

Aereniel.7356:

Ithilwen.1529:

No, that’s a misinterpretation. I feel that Pro league is developing niche moves, long combinations and coordinated plays that are being used to stomp more casual players easily.

In short, the game skillcap is too high. The difference between mid level players and high level players is too great as a result.

Contrary to what Ithilwen suggests, high complexity does not necessarily lead to inaccessibility, because having a high skill ceiling is different from having a steep learning curve or a deterringly high skill floor. The key is to have systems in place to educate the playerbase as new players progress from noobdom to star athletes.

As Chaith implied, the increasing skill ceiling of Pro League has nothing to do with the skill floor of casual play. Those two player populations are not even playing the same game. A Sunday jogger has no reason to be upset that somebody set a new world record for marathon. On the contrary, Ithilwen should be pleased that the Pro League is pushing the skill cap, because doing so will increase the game’s longevity. Skill-based PvP with a high skill ceiling will keep the game up and running long after Anet has killed all development and shifted resources to mobile games. Anyone who enjoys PvP in GW2 should wish for the same.

It is true that a high skill cap is “different from having a steep learning curve or a deterringly high skill floor.” However they are interrelated. As skill cap rises in has a very strong tendency to raise the skill floor. This naturally results in a steep learning curve.

Sure it would be great if there were easily accessible learning steps. They don’t exist in GW2 PvP.

If, as you say, Pro League is “not even playing the same game,” then; I contend that balance decisions should not be made based on Pro League. Further, I’d wonder what the relevance of the League is to the rest of the game.

To return to the point of my post; It is true that there is a gulf between what Helseth called “competitive” players and the larger casual group.

I believe that gulf is created by the difficulty of having initial success in PvP. When I got my pilot’s license, even the FAA literature encouraged new pilots to take new passengers out in the morning (for calm air) and make the flight short and pleasant.

First impressions are crucial. I brought a friend and guildmate to PvP. In his first game, he was stomped 4v1 by a roaming zerg. The next match happened to be Courtyard, with the other team camping our spawn. He vowed never to come back.

Matchmaking is much better at the moment, but a new incoming player can expect to take a lot of stompings and name calling before they see much success.

It wasn’t until Osicat made a great video on shatters that I really understood several important details. This was what? 2+ years into pvp? I actively asked, even pleaded with some players to reveal why my shatters hit like a day old kitten. No dice.

This kind of situation is why PvP is running on thin population. It’s simply too hard to learn.

No, that’s a misinterpretation. I feel that Pro league is developing niche moves, long combinations and coordinated plays that are being used to stomp more casual players easily.

In short, the game skillcap is too high. The difference between mid level players and high level players is too great as a result.

I said no such thing. Of course people should be able to excel and be better than others. There should not, however, be such a gulf between mid and high skill.

Pro League drives a trend to increasingly complex moves and tactics. In my opinion that has gone too far.

If the learning curve is too steep, you make the game inaccessible. Like many others, I want to log in and have fun. I don’t want to have to practice for hours daily to be able to do that.

I watched Helseth’s video with interest. First let me say that if I can be said to admire any Pro League player it is Helseth. I tune into his stream now and then. Twitch Pro league usually bores me within 10 minutes and I wander off.

He tried to make a case for Pro League’s value and wondered why it is not well received, especially on Reddit.

After thinking about it, here’s my response. I dislike Pro League for two major reasons and several secondary ones.

First, Pro League and the players themselves drive the game to be harder to play. Longer and longer combinations, weird situational powers and traits, coordinated team tactics and the like. These trickle into regular play.

A harder game and steeper learning curve make my life harder. I don’t want to have to spend hours a day practicing to be successful. If I wanted ultra complex combinations and powers interactions, I’d play WoW. It comes with a built in macro editor as I understand it.

In addition, a harder game is less casual friendly. PvP already has a low population. Making it harder will only increase that trend.

Second, my perception is that ANET has a number of areas that need attention. Pro League is a distraction from that. It also seems that ANET makes balance decisions based on the whim of pro league players.

Yes, Helseth, there is a “blind hatred” between what you call “competitive” players and the rest.

Part is the skill divide. No one enjoys coming to a game and being pounded into the soil of Tyria. That’s particularly true when your enemy laughs and calls you a “noob” while they do it.

Related is the ultra conservative, Social Darwinist attitudes displayed by some players. The notion that casual players don’t “deserve” to have a good time ( ie win ,) that all problems can be solved if the player would simply “git gud.” This kind of talk works in an Ayn Rand novel, but it chases players away in the real world.

phantom.1675:

I hope the number come in with season 4 having the least amount of games played out of all the seasons.

It’s spectacularly bad to think the competitive scene can benefit from rewards and titles not based on skill.

People getting locked into “MMR hell” needs to be correctly explained as “where you belong”, not addressed such that it screws over actually skilled participants.

I thought season 3 was a pretty excellent balance, with the reduced pip range for pooling players and the MMR spread it allowed.

Id prefer that there just were not any rewards/achievements for ranked and it was purely for the competitive nature of PvP. They can put the next shiny into generic achievements and let players grind for it.

First, the current season is trying for even matches. That is a much more accurate measure of skill than previous seasons. In season 2 and 3 matches were created with one side intended to win.

So, your idea that rewards and titles this season are “not based on skill” is precisely backward. The truth is that this season is far more “skill based” than previous seasons.

As to the idea of no rewards for ranked play. That cuts to the heart of the issue. The “shiny” ( Legendary Backpack ) was put out with two opposing goals; To reward high level players and to attract new players to pvp.

If you want to attract players, you need obtainable rewards. If you want exclusivity, the rewards need to be denied to the majority. ANET attempted to do both. That didn’t go well.

The simple reality is that there are not enough “hard core” players to make pvp work, let alone “Esports.”

So, the most effective solution would be to nurture the incoming pve players. To stomp them into the ground and denigrate them is self destructive to pvp.

I’m noticing how much more even the matches feel. The HoTM is less toxic as well.

There seem to be more people queueing. I’d call that a success overall.

S2 and S3 were pure misery. To add insult to injury, you knew going in that you were assigned to win or lose.

I just entered Sapphire on a 5 game win streak and well over 50% wins. Suddenly, I’m getting blowout after blowout loss. This somewhat “frustrating” to say the least.

There seems to be a “collision” happening in Sapphire because some of the “super” players are not advancing as fast. This would tend to cause very uneven matches. I predict that the “collision” will move to Ruby and perhaps Diamond as the season progresses.

happily, I just need to make Ruby and I can forget the rest of the season.

Ban whatever you don’t like on the spot? No thanks. Good luck have fun.

I’m finding matches better. Risking jinxing myself, I’m running over 50% wins and one of my best win streaks at the moment.

If I can sustain this, I’ll hit Ruby and in doing so finally get those bloody wings.

There have been a couple of blowouts, but they have been few and far between. I’m not finding I’m facing overwhelming odds regularly. That’s in direct contrast to the previous two seasons.

The only fly in the ointment at the moment is teams like one I faced recently, 3 DH, 2 Druid. They appeared to be voice coordinated and won with little effort.

Actually I have better than that, I’m trying not to jinx it.

I stand by my point that the unfair matches of the past two seasons pushed people well above there true skill range.

People are finding that they can’t advance as fast or far as last season.

One logical explanation is that they were boosted by the mmr system higher than they should have been. Now, without the advantage of being on a team pre-set to win, they find themselves over matched.

I’m bouncing around a 50% win rate, compared to a low of about 16% in previous seasons. Fair match making gives a better reflection of skill.

spiritualabyss.7016:

Matchmaking is as bad, as it ever has been..

In this case both teams had seemingly the same experience + 1 duoqueue.
It should have ben a fair matchup.
Both teamcomps were not perfect, but the result left me just speechless.
(They were not afk, they tried)

Decided to take a break from spvp.

Yes there will be some bad matches, I’ve had a couple. The point is that they are fairly rare now and not the norm.

Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are built around the individual “hero” and henchies.

It’s true that the current pvp mode requires some team work. You could get similar results by forcing everyone to solo queue, so that every game was pug v pug. That would be a better test of individual player skill in my eyes. Teams can carry people and make them look better than they are.

I notice how much nicer the atmosphere is in my home and in HoTM with the matchmaker striving for fair matches.

True, it removes the “fun” of being near god-mode and being fed teams that are of very much lower skill to stomp on. I’m certain that for some people, such games make them feel “skilled.”

There again, the population won’t support it. I’m reasonably sure ANET would like to see an all premade tournament.

Here’s the issue with that; Very quickly, all the players considered “good” would be recruited to teams. I can see huge issues happening with that. We’d see players charging gold to be on a team or to allow others on teams. This would rapidly degenerate into pay-to-win.

Those considered “bad” would then have to pick up teams where they could. Then we’d be right back to heavily unbalanced blowout matches. It would be very much a caste system. Such a system would bleed players like a cut Femoral Artery.

The soloists, like myself, would be out in the cold.

I think that the pvp legendary should be a reward track. It could easily be a long one that required playing a good part of each season.

As to skill. Unfair matchmaking eliminated the question of skill in seasons 2 and 3. That’s been rescinded which is a big step in the right direction.

The step that would really straighten things out would be to require everyone to solo que. This would prevent solo farming and force people to advance on there own merits, not be carried by being on a coordinated team.

Given those two things; reward track for the shiny and all solo queue, I’d be fine with seeing safety nets removed. I don’t think it would be healthy for the game though. Being stuck in lower ranks would frustrate too many players and population would drop further.

Hammerguard.9834:

Ithilwen.1529:

Removing safeguards would intensify the problems with needing to advance vs. the system trying to prevent players from advancing.

It’s called, not being good enough. Second, you don’t “need” to advance. You want to advance but don’t deserve to.

That’s an interesting statement. The “legendary” prize was set out to attract players. It was strongly represented as a prize “everyone” could win.

How do I not “deserve” to be able to gain a prize that was allegedly for “everyone?” As an element of the set “everyone,” I deserve to be able to win the prize.

If it were a question of deserving and of skill, everyone would have to solo queue. That would prevent carrying. The matches would be set dead even.

Most importantly, ANET would never have presented the prize as being for everyone. They did, and here’s why:

There aren’t enough players to support the ultra competitive system a certain number of the posters claim to want. That is the simple reality.

Removing safeguards would intensify the problems with needing to advance vs. the system trying to prevent players from advancing. ANET attempted mutually exclusive goals. To whit, to attract players from pve with a large reward and to make high levels ( and therefore the reward ) difficult to obtain. As a result, they’ve failed in both.

Beside that, it would super-concentrate players in Amber. The resulting frustration would bleed off even more players.

Making the legendary a simple (long) reward track would be the logical move. If that were done and Solo Queue returned, I think the tournament system would begin to work.

Bringing back solo queue might just be the step that makes this all work. That would be great.

I think that GW2 PvP would be improved if Pro League was not played. The attitude that pvp needs to be ultra competitive has driven off many.

I used to look forward to logging on to have a good time. Now, I log on to compete. My stress level peaks and I log off tired and drained.

In another NCsoft game world, I have a ship that is just short of being qualified for the “DPS league.” That world permits macros, so I have less difficulty with needing fast reactions.

For most missions, my ship is genuinely OP. It’s not fun for me or teammates when she goes tearing through enemies like tissue paper.

I have a lot more fun and don’t kitten off the pugs when I play on a lower powered alt. Being in a very competitive fleet has spoiled a good part of the fun.

Tyria used to be fun. I have spent literally more than a year of time actively logged in and playing. I don’t regret a minute of that. Still, ultra competition has really taken the edge off the magic.

Best of luck. As a former field medic ( the military equivalent of an LVN/EMT ) I have a lot of respect for MDs. Watch out for those student loans.

Rarnark.5623:

It’s obvious at this point so there’s no need elaborating on the diminishing interest/population in Guild Wars 2 PvP.

Can this be reversed, or are any initiatives a band-aid on a bullet hole at this point?

@Chaith

Your quote is not relevant to what I said. I was talking about the OP. The OP appears to be about the pvp scene in general and not about pro league.

Bringing this back to the topic; I don’t think Pro league is a good metric. The real measure of pvp health is in how many are playing every day in ranked and unranked.

That number has been reduced by deliberately unbalanced matches.

Because the matches were unbalanced, it’s very difficult to see class balance accurately.

So, the first step in improving pvp would be to improve matchmaking. Better still, simply make it 50-50 odds on the predicted win.

The OP was about day-to-day pvp I think. Pro league really isn’t relevant to my PvP experience in my opinion. I have respect for a couple of pro league players, but I don’t bother watching.

I’ve been winning better than 50% of my matches on PU core Mesmer, with fair matchmaking.

The perceptions about balance have been skewed by matchmaking that virtually assigned winners and losers.

The metric of the health of GW2 pvp is how many regular people are playing every day. The pro league is it’s own issue and not really relevant to daily gaming.

The biggest problem is the deliberately unbalanced matchmaking. There’s no reasonable way to talk about balance when you are comparing predetermined matches.

I personally perform a lot better when my team isn’t being stomped. Then I can focus on the game and not evading the enemy zerg.

If ANET ran even matches, 70% of the problem would be solved.

Building a restricted tournament would be contrary to the spirit of gw2. There’s nothing stopping you from organizing such a thing on your own though.

Ok, I’ll bite. What’s a “payload mode?”

There’s 4 straight roflstomps against the same people. Here we go again.

I’m dreading the incoming season.

The same has happened to me.

The bad manners and hostility have been created by the matchmaking. No one likes to be set up for failure. Does that excuse the behavior? No, not really. Does it matter? No, not really.

Can we resolve the problem by punishing players? No, punishment almost never deters behavior as any psychiatrist could tell you. Beside that, do you really want to have to ban perhaps a majority of the players?

The toxicity exists. Over time, with fair matchmaking, it would reduce. Continued unbalanced matches will simply increase it.

In a normal competition scenario, some trash talking is expected and even desirable. Sadly, the unbalanced matches have pretty much eliminated “sportsmanship” from the equation in GW2 pvp.

If anet wants toxicity to go down they have two main options; ban people, which is counterproductive or make the matches fair.

The reduction in toxicity is the direct result of EVEN MATCHMAKING. A lot of the anger and frustration were created by players ( like myself) going into a match knowing they were more or less set up to lose.

ANET ought to take note and make even matchmaking a thing again.

Josh Davis explained on the stream that his objection to clone death Mesmer was that clones could be destroyed by dodging. This made it possible to attack indirectly and out of LOS. The build was completely removed from the game.

It ought to be possible to code such that a dodge did not trigger clone death effects. So, the objection is superficial. Beside which, DH traps have the same objections.

There are some serious potential advantages for the game in the build though.

First, It would make builds other than Chronomancer potentially useful in Ranked PvP. I’m thinking of the Napalm Cat and other builds of old.

Second, it would punish mindless aoe spam and auto attack cleave.

I think ANET should consider returning Clone Death to the game as a means of making build diversity and core Mesmer worth considering for ranked play.

I would contend that in fact, when the odds are relatively even everyone is able to do there part.

It’s a bit far fetched to think any one “good” player can carry a team, as Season 3 amply demonstrated. The argument that “good” players are burdened by even teams isn’t supported by the experience of the past two seasons.

I think, on the contrary, that it’s a very selfish viewpoint to want to be placed on teams pre-chosen to win. It’s also not much of an accomplishment to win when you were chosen and set up to win.

So, you do support pre-setting the winning team. Further You claim that this is a “more fair” than a match in which both sides have an equal chance.

I can’t see how that position can be supported logically.

To return to the topic; I hope that S4 continues even matchmaking.

I don’t agree. Competition presupposes a level playing field. In fact, having an uneven game going in is “counter-intuitive” to competition generally.

We don’t make (European) football “competitive” by building a field tilted 15 degrees and taking the lowest team in the league and putting them on the low side, Highest team on the high side.

That’s not competition, it’s a setup.

Most of the changes are as expected. Kudos for fixing the pet names issue at long last. That was one reason I never took ranger seriously.

The one change though: “Matchmaking rules are configured so that teams are intended to have even odds of victory. This matches the behavior of Unranked Arena and Ranked Arena before leagues.”

Thank you ANET, this won’t bring back many players that have bled away in S2 and S3 but it may staunch the wounds some. The voice of reason has been heard at last. I hope this carries into S4.