Guild Wars 2

Yes, the 55 monk was and is a farming build. I run one now when I have the heart to grind in gw1 for legacy rewards in gw2.

Still, you are focusing on minutia and avoiding the point. Both builds are tanky because they can actively mitigate damage.

That was my point in bringing up the 55 monk. Both builds have survivability through active use of skills.

Auramancer is not OP, because it requires active input and is vulnerable to CC, interrupt and conditions, all of which can kill the build rather quickly.

This argument started with a complaint that 3 toons were unable to take down a lone ele. I contend that any 3 well played toons should have easily crushed a lone auramancer.

Do you agree?

The post is quite serious. Please refer to my original post. I suggested the following as a compromise move;

Keep the solo and group options. I’d personally prefer solo only. As I pointed out in my original post that isn’t going to happen.

Make teams evenly matched and return to “50/50” matchmaking Competition demands a level playing field.

Make any rewards for league play a reward track, unrelated to win/loss This idea and the previous one make the last possible.

Assuming even matches and the transfer of rewards to a reward track, remove “safe” pips Uneven matchmaking is only supported by safe pips. If the current matchmaking continued and safe pips were removed, players would be quickly pushed out of the mid range.

Offering a reward for “everyone” then locking it behind advancement is a basic contradiction. The only possible result of such a situation is a lot of bitterness. The goal of the “legendary” pack was to attract people to pvp. The new people who did arrive were exposed to murderous odds and a near unobtanium reward.

The predicted result of that? an overall reduction in pvp population. Hence my suggestion of a reward track.

You’re technically correct. The result and the mechanism are close cousins however. I didn’t take the time to elaborate on the difference. Mitigation via healing and boons ,( such as protection and regeneration, ) does the same job as protective spirit.

My point stands. The Monk and the Auramancer Ele are remarkably similar. Both are appropriate in the game.

@pazzakull

(in direct reply and relevant to the philosophy of the topic of this thread.)

Sadly, my Webster’s Unabridged is in that part of my library that is in storage at the moment. So, I refer to; “The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.” Please excuse the sexist language. This is an older dictionary. The emphasis is mine.

He-ro (hir’o) noun 1. In mythology and legend, a man,often born of one mortal and one divine parent, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits and favored by the gods. 2. Any man noted for his feats of courage or nobility of purpose; especially, one who has risked or sacrificed his life.

I could go on typing. Note that the individual is emphasized time and again. Not once does this passage mention a group.

So, by implication, team play is not heroic and therefore not in keeping with the narrative of GW2.

You claim that this is a poor argument for removing team play.

First, I haven’t argued for removing team play. I’ve argued for removing what I consider exploitation by pre -mades that more-or-less act as bullies.

A pure solo queue would moderate some of the exploitation of solo queue’rs. It would also still allow team play, just on a less organized level.

Second, if the game is not to be directed by it’s own narrative, then how will it be directed? If the storyline and the actual game are out of sync, you lose one of the principle attractions of gw2 and it becomes another “streetfighter” type video game.

Group play is easy, especially when the group is pitted against individuals. That doesn’t mean it exhibits skill or the lack thereof on the part of the individuals.

@Agemnon That’s an interesting point. I guess I realized it but hadn’t articulated it to myself. Thank you for that.

@Pakkazull

(in direct reply and relevant as it relates to the philosophy behind the discussion)

The narrative of being a hero is reinforced from the very first. Every single race and division, be it noble vs commoner or which college a character represents, is introduced as a hero. In fact, the first act in-game is to distinguish oneself individually.

The vast majority of the pve world can be and is enjoyed individually. Sadly, HoT attempted to change that.

I have never been interested in being part of a herd, following a “commander.” That’s in no way heroic. If I wanted that, I’d go to any one one of several institutions on Sunday.

PvP players speak constantly about “skill.” The reality is that teams disguise poor skills.
Teams also introduce social networking as a factor in winning.

If the goal is to test and exhibit skill, then solo queue is the logical format. This would allow team play. Yet it would not allow pre organized groups to more – or – less bully non teamed players.

I think a pure solo queue is the best option. With ANET pushing “group” content and trying to change the direction of GW2, I doubt they will do this.

So, I suggested a compromise position.

My point in bringing up the 55 Monk is this: The build is tanky because it heals. It outheals damage.

This is precisely why the current healer ele is tanky. It’s appropriate and in balance. With the level of aoe damage in the game, a high level of aoe heal makes perfect sense.

Like the 55 monk, an auramancer ele will die quickly if the heal cycle is stopped by cc, conditions or interrupts. There’s nothing out of balance here.

@Chaith

This dispute is about 3 players being unable to beat a lone Ele. At least one of those was a Ranger who somehow failed to cc.

For the rest, that’s a different issue.

@Vagrant

The 55 Monk says “hi.” On paper, this build is squishy in the extreme. Yet, I have tanked for minutes at a time using it. Guild Wars has a long and honorable history of tough healers.

When a healer is squishy.. ( the dead game City of Heroes comes to mind ) There’s normally also a strong protector class and we start working toward the holy trinity.

No, it is not true that healers are generally super squishy. There healing makes them tanky.

I dislike the idea of all team for a couple of reasons;

Teams carry. If the goal is to test the skill of the player, that goal is distorted by the addition of teams. This is especially true when a team goes against randoms.

On a practical level, I was always last to be picked for teams. Why would I want to relive that in GW2?

Philosophically, GW2 is allegedly about heroes. Almost by definition, a hero is a loner.
I don’t want to be beholden to a “commander.” That view is shared by many, I think.

The “Guild Wars” were a specific period of Tyrian history. King Adelburn helped end that if memory serves, before The Searing. This is why the franchise has always been about the player alone or in a small group.. be that henchies or a dungeon party.

Insisting on teams will drive away anyone perceived as not good enough to team. This type of elitism can only hurt the game.

@Fay

(wish I knew how to quote previous posts) I beg to differ. My case shows that what you’re saying is not accurate.

Here’s the way I see ANET’s options, for better or for worse. Yes, these are my opinions.

Remove “safe” pips; 2 Seasons of experience have shown that this match making system will never “level out.” A little thought will show that the “safe” pips are all that supports a population in the mid range of the league. Removing these would quickly result in having players only at the extremes,(assuming the same style matchmaking.) Sure, it might eventually rebound and distribute the players evenly. That would take months or years though. I strongly suspect that this is why “safe” pips were created.

Adjust the current matchmaking system; A major nerf to the lopsidedness of the matches has already been tried, without success in my view. Again, 2 seasons of experience have shown that the system will never “level out” within a season. Therefore, the reasoning for lopsided matches is flawed. This is not viable.

Go all team pvp; This would eliminate many players and exacerbate match making issues by reducing the available pool of players.

Go all solo PvP; This option would heavily emphasize individual skills and make fairer matches. However, it’s contrary to ANET’s current marketing goals and it’s attempt to make GW2 a “group content” game.

Return to unranked style matchmaking; Many denigrate this system as being mere “grind.” To some extent that’s true, but only to an extent. if the system strives for 50/50, more skilled players will have better and less skilled worse. This system has the merit of not creating matches as often that are blatantly one sided.

TLDR

This is my suggestion ANET; Go with 50/50 matchmaking. Remove “safe” pips since that seems to be such an emotional issue. Finally, make any “legendary” items a reward track that may only be advanced by playing ranked. This would result in a system that distributed players across the ranks to some extent, without alienating the pve players that the reward was meant to attract.

Incidently, naming the wings “Legendary” and the top rank of the league “legendary” also was a serious error. It is clearly not necessary to ever make legendary rank to obtain the wings. The name sets up this resonance of “deserving” the reward. The reward was to motivate people to play over a period of time. It was never really a mark of high skill and it should not have been presented that way.

There is no reward for fighting out a bad match. If ANET wishes to address the AFK issue, it will need to convince people that they have a fair chance going in.

I used to believe that honor demanded playing to the end.

Now after 3 seasons of beatings… my attitude is; “Why should I volunteer as a punching bag for the pleasure of others?”

The afk issue is a symptom of the matchmaking and of community attitudes.

When you are being steamrolled you have two basic options; Keep fighting knowing that you will be crushed and very likely mocked as a “baddie,” or stop engaging and get out of the match asap. The result is the same either way.

Which is more appealing?

MMR and matchmaking is a separate issue. I think there’s general agreement that the current matchmaking is “sub optimal.”

This is different.

You’re mistaken. By definition, a healer will be able to tank. That’s one of the primary functions of healing.

The full healer ele does laughable damage. It’s also highly vulnerable to conditions and cc.

You got outplayed.

I don’t agree. Any 4 toons should have easily beaten a Tempest. Interrupt, and Conditions are the bane of the healer Ele.

If a tempest tanked 4, it was because the 4 had no clue.

I’m asking that this thread be closed because virtually every post is an attack and / or ridicule.

Sticks and stones, my fellow pvp ers.

I might be mistaking the source of the interrupt. It is at least concurrent with [“Rise”] a lot of the time.

One; Ele is not unkillable. I can well attest to that.

Two; The main job of Ele right now is healing. The class pays for that and more with minimum damage output. After one match I stood on a point and unloaded on an enemy DH. He stood mostly passive and laughed at me.

In addition, Ele is highly vulnerable to interrupt and condi burst. Scrapper is pretty much a hard counter. If you can’t kill an ele you got out played.

The level of interrupt in the game is excessive. I’m looking at you, Scrappers. One of the most egregious skills is the Necromancer’s [Rise] which creates minor minions.

The minions stack multiple interrupts on a target.

This totally passive skill can quite literally shut down all overloads and any skill requiring a casting time. Yet it requires no input from the necro to totally shut down an ele.

That’s clearly out of line and OP.

One thing I’d like to see is for the interrupt from Necro shambling horrors removed.

This totally passive skill can quite literally shut down all overloads and any skill requiring a casting time. Yet it requires no input from the necro to totally shut down an ele.

I don’t honestly think ESL should be considered for balance at all.

The pro league players simply don’t play anything like everyday pvp. This is particularly true in solo queue.

It makes no sense at all to accommodate such a small percentage of players at the expense of the majority.

The Guild Wars were stopped in part by King Adelburn, if memory serves, more than 250 years ago. GW2 wasn’t sold as a team game. It was about heroes.

The Destiny’s edge 2.0 is like the henchies of old with less control.

HoT attempted to shift GW2 to “group content” and in my view.. it has been more or less a disaster.

It’s not the solo queue promoters ( like myself ) who are trolling. It’s the “team” people who min/max a group and use it to exploit anyone not similarly teamed.

@Arcaedus

Tempest has very little access to ranged attacks. Projectile reflect balances that. Otherwise you could just stand out of range and plink. The Tempest wouldn’t be able to do a thing about it without leaving comrades or a point.

@Exedore

You have a valid point of view, but I don’t agree. I find myself watching my opponent closer than ever. Recognizing what’s coming and picking the correct response is critical. This is much more true now than it was back in ’zerker meta days.

When the fight is over in the first second or two, there’s no time for real strategy or critical thought/observation. It’s all muscle memory and practiced response. “Fire all weapons.”

My Thai Chi teacher once told me that one of the reasons he had me practice as slow as possible was that speed covers mistakes, sloppy form.. a multitude of sins. I found it to be quite true.

On giving the whole issue more thought. I think this is ANET’s way of reintroducing dual classes. Like the trait lines, the choices have been narrowed to give more standardized and easier to control combinations.

I’m guessing that the next expac will introduce new combo specs and possibly a return to Cantha.

Several of these specs are old friends in a new guise.

Straight outta Cantha, The Ritualist/Assassin, also know as Revenant. From the deserts of Elona, the Reaper, a Necromancer/Dervish. Carrying the flag for Old Ascalon, The Elementalist/Monk now called a Tempest. I might also argue that Daredevil is more-or-less an Assassin/Warrior.

We have reams of information on the GW1 wiki about how these class fit and are played in pve and pvp.

I think that ANET is moving in the right direction by adding sustain and lengthening fights. Now you need strategy and cool down management. I remember when the main strategy was: “sneak up on somebody and burst them as fast as possible.”

A more sustained fight forces one to do more than just hammer buttons and I imagine it makes balance more predictable.

As a brief sidelight: ANET might be able to “balance” the vanilla specs by allowing dual classes. I don’t want to even contemplate the mess that would be to set up though.

I back the idea of solo queue coming back. That alone would be a major step in the right direction.

To answer the question, I seem to be getting interrupted by the minions summoned with [“Rise”]. Sometimes it’s enough that any non instant cast isn’t available for several seconds at a time.

ANET asked the community’s opinion and added a healer class, ie auramancer ele and to a lesser extent Druid.

I’ve seen posts on this forum for years asking for the “holy trinity” to be brought to GW2. So I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask that it be removed.

Besides, the healer is the answer to overwhelming conditions. Hell, with time you might even see an Ele/zerk war or zerk Mesmer combo. I’ve seen it a couple of times in PvP and it’s deadly.

I’d like to see fewer interrupts, especially from MM pets and scrappers.

As evidence of my desire and effort to get better; I’ve learned 3 new classes, Druid, Reaper and Auramancer Ele. I’ve invested in a gaming mouse and taught myself to use it in addition to a tartarus. I’ve spent countless hours playing over the past 3 seasons.

Again, I consider legendary more or less meaningless. The deliberately unfair matchmaking makes it hard for me to see why I should respect a high pvp rank.

You are conflating two unrelated things; The “legendary” backpack and “Legendary” pvp rank. At no time did ANET say that the wings represented legendary rank. The only relationship is in the name. Hence, your argument about who “deserves” the wings is moot.

With respect to “1” beating “1” as opposed to “10” vs “10”… all else being equal, it’s the same accomplishment. Assuming a fair match, in each case the player defeated someone of similar skill. The assumption that the 10v10 pairing members had more overall skill is irrelevant because the relative skill levels are approximately the same.

Simply being “legendary” doesn’t carry any entitlement. That’s especially true because the rank has been debased by the various tricks and exploits players have used to obtain it.

@Reikou

I do not claim to play with only one hand. My left hand is injured. I shattered my left elbow. The surgeon who installed the plates, screws and artificial joint managed to cut the primary nerve bundle controlling the hand. That paralyzed the hand and lower arm. Later, after tendon transfers ( along with some outstanding work by a specialist hand surgeon ) and PT I can use the hand.

What I said was that I control the game primarily with a gaming mouse ( a razor naga epic ) because my left doesn’t move very accurately. The left basically keyboard turns when my right is multitasking and presses forward and back. On the advice of forum posters, I also use a Razer tartarus which helps me be able to hit buttons reliably.

@RoRo

FYI I have something on the order of 15 games this morning, after having played last night. Of my past 10 games, 9 were roflstomps. One was 592-129.

I have 564 games so far for the season. How many do you have?

That’s Vigil Keep, ( I think ). Out of curiosity, how did you kill each other? BTW That’s not me in the picture.

Yes actually. Your argument is a classic strawman, but I’ll answer it anyway. If a “1” wins against another “1” .. it really has the same value as a “10” winning against another “10.”
Assuming a fair match in both cases, the achievement is the same. Viz. Winning against another player of similar skill.

By contrast, a “10” hammering a “1” is no contest at all and not worthy of reward.

Your argument also presupposes that “Legendary” rank is or should be limited to top players. Quite a few posters have complained of bad play in upper divsions. So on that score the system has failed as well.

You misunderstand. I don’t hold the pvp ranks in any real regard because I don’t feel the system is fair. So, I don’t care about progression.

If matches were fair, then I might have some respect for pvp rank and wish to advance.

I would further contend that, absent 2 seasons of deliberately unfair matchmaking,( and one of smurfing, wherein high rankers took advantage of a loophole to play in divsions well below there skill level, another form of unfair match ) I would in fact have advanced sufficiently to have the wings.

@Silverthorn

I would argue that the deliberate breaking of balance to “shake up the meta” has been one of the major problems for quite some time. That’s partly because some classes have been favored more often than others.

An unbalanced class, hambow warrior for example, doesn’t create a new mix of play styles. It creates a mad rush to band waggon on the latest OP spec. Well do I remember 5 hambow teams rolling over everything else.. and 5 man ranger teams for that matter.

I don’t care about progressing in rank except insofar as it affects my getting the shiny.

It’s very clear that rank progression is dictated by; the matchmaker which is pre-setting results, mmr and teaming. Therefore, it’s pretty much meaningless in my opinion.

@Israel

Yes of course I state things in the way most suited to my point of view. The culture in the forum demands bombastic statements.

Notice that I said “evidence” and not “proof.” I chose my words with the realization that it was anecdotal evidence. I also said “is a major factor” I did not say that the matchmaker was the sole or even the primary cause of my problems.

I don’t honestly care very much what division I land in. I do care about fulfilling the requirements to finish this quest for a legendary item that has consumed so much of my time.

If it gave me fair and competitive matches, I’d be willing to be in whatever division was appropriate. I honestly don’t have much regard for the “legendary” division.

However, winning the wings requires crossing divisions. 4 division crossings is my very last hurdle.

The matchmaker is trying to prevent crossing, while the prize for which I have been grinding close to 3 seasons requires them.

What I want is matches set up with players of roughly equal skills. That’s what creates competition. Matching a known strong team against a known weak team is not competition.

As a counter argument, I’m running roughly a 50% win rate this morning. Nothing has changed except the time of day. I’ve also just reached T5 Sapphire, (starting from the bottom of T4 this morning, ) after weeks of frustration.

That being the case, 18 loss peak streaks and many around 10 losses are not justified. Nor is it accurate to claim that I am being held down appropriately by the matchmaker.

It’s the matchmaking

At one poster’s suggestion, I have switched to daytime.

So far today, I’m 3 for 7. Unfortunately it’s 1 win, 2 losses, one win .. so I am still making no progress. Compare that to regular loss streaks of more than 10.

Still, I think it’s pretty clear evidence that matchmaking is a major factor in my success and that of other players.

@Ross Biddle (in direct reply to your post and more generally on topic)

While I don’t disagree with your sentiments, you miss the main issue.

That issue is this; ANET set out a prize which was to be available to “everyone.” The league and achievement structure has been set up in a way that contradicts that.

Sure, one needs to meet the requirements. However, ANET promoted a prize as available to all. Therefore, the company has an obligation to make the requirements such that all can get it.

The community has been asking for the"Holy Trinity" for years. The new Ele is the old monk.

I for one really like having a healer class. As a cleric ele, I can seldom down anyone. I can survive and prevent a decap 1v1 or more. My main job though is to stay as close to my damage dealers as possible and pour boons on them.

Now if I could also do serious damage, ( other than by easily interrupted overloads, ) that would be an issue.

Every one of those season 3 matches is stacked for one side to win. It’s clearly unfair matchmaking.

So I may have fair or close to fair matchmaking only if I play at specific times? That makes no sense whatever.

I think it’s crystal clear that the match making isn’t working. The concept of creating competition by making unfair matches is logically flawed and it needs to be abandoned.

Sailing through the seasons doesn’t give you any moral or logical high ground.

The matches are set deliberately uneven. So, neither winning nor losing reflect skill in my opinion.

That’s not accurate I just came from a match in which I had 3-4 ambers against a team of rubies. I’m working on a 10 loss streak at the moment, most of them by roflstomp.

Anet expressly stated that the matchmaker is stacking one team stronger than the other.
That’s not fair and it’s producing bad results.

That’s the way it should work, not the way it does work.

fixing a page glitch

@Shion

I was speculating as to what ESL matchmaking would look like if it were set the same way that pvp matchmaking currently is.

ESL is closer to what pvp should look like.

@Chaith

No I was sincere. Sorry you read it that way. I am capable of holding more than one line of thought.

As a hobbyist programmer, the current matchmaking makes me angry. The results were easy to foresee with minimal thought.

As a GW2 player I’m angry that I’ve put in this much work for a prize that was allegedly for “everyone” and it looks likely that I’ll fail at the very last obstacle. Would I like to see changes, (e.g. removing the division crossing requirement,) that would let me get the prize I’ve worked for? Of course I would.

Again as a GW2 player, I’d like to see the issue fixed. The matchmaking is driving away the very players the backpack was intended to attract. Lower pvp population means lower quality games for everyone. Of course I’d like to see the issues fixed.

Yes, I post often. I cherish a tiny grain of hope in my heart of hearts that someone is listening. Also, tbh… it relieves some of the stress of 400 point stomps, back to back.

As to my skill. The seasons are not an accurate measure of my skill inasmuch as I am consistently placed on the team predicted to lose. No surprise.. I lose.