Guild Wars 2

I disagree. The few things that are keeping professions unique shouldn’t be spread out anymore. Mesmers excel at boon stripping, Thieves at boon stealing, and Necros at boon corruption. That’s 3/8 professions that have the ability to manipulate boons, and I think that’s a nice number that shouldn’t be increased any further.

Regardless, it doesn’t fit the Ranger profession thematically, anyway. Sharing boons with pets, definitely. But stealing boons? No, not at all.

I agree that stealth requires more counters, however they certainly should not be given to the Warrior, which is one of the few classes that’s actually effective at countering stealth-heavy specs right now, as well as being generally over-powered.

Give anti-stealth to Rangers, Eles, Necros, and Mesmers. Warriors, Guardians, Engineers, and Thieves don’t require it nearly as much, as they tend to be better at countering things like Thieves as is. Or, alternatively, just make revealed apply on block.

Most Guardian builds, and condi Engineers.
Power and condi Necros, and phantasm Mesmers.
CC Warriors.

In that order.

ANet aren’t going to nerf their pet class. However, if another build of another profession becomes viable for even a second, or threatens the Warrior’s position in the meta, it will be surely nerfed into the ground, and then some, just for good measure.

Torch for Mesmer. Its stealth is defensively great, but its phantasm is borderline useless.

Runner-up is the scepter. Although Illusionary Counter’s torment hits like a truck in a condi build, scepter’s auto-attack is terrible and Confusing Images is slow/channeled.

The damage of conditions isn’t even the bulk of the issue.

It’s the fact that most professions that build around conditions have access to a wide variety of them, meaning not only are you dealing with the damage they apply, but also the utility they offer (ie. weakness, cripple, poison, chill, fear, blind, etc). Not only can conditions builds attain bunker-like stats via dire equipment, but they can optimize their damage output through consumables and trait lines, and then on top of all of that have plenty of conditions that focus on “status effects”.

Condition duration doesn’t even need to exist on weapons, armor, or trinkets, because most condition specs gain enough via traits, trait lines, and food. Meaning they can go full dire with a splash of precision via something like rabid gear, if required.

Power builds? No power build gains all of its power, precision, or critical damage purely through consumables or trait lines. All three of those stats have to exist on their armor/weapons/trinkets, or their damage output will be mediocre.

There’s a disparity in risk-reward when it comes to power builds vs. condition builds in PvP game modes (small-scale WvW/roaming, and tPvP).

Kravick.4906:

Jackums.3496:

Tim.6450:

well I have some news for you:

good news is that condition damage requires three stats for full damage namely condition damage , condition duration and precision.

No. It only needs condition damage. Condition duration can be attained solely through consumables, stacks, and trait line bonuses. Power professions can’t attain all of their power, precision, or critical damage via those outlets. They have to invest those stats in their equipment, which conditions builds do not. You can go pure Dire with a condition spec, and then get everything else you may want (ie. condition duration) purely from one-off and/or cheaper methods that you don’t need to invest in.

It’s hardly balanced between the two.

This is incorrect, on all accounts. Every class, except thief, have traits, or conditional effects that proc conditions based on critical hits. Yes, a necromancer can go full dire, but they’ll do considerably less damage than one who goes full rabid. Condition duration is also necessary to maximize this damage. A necromancer with zero condition duration is lucky to go beyond 12-14 stacks of bleeds (which still does far less damage than someone in full PTV as already proven in this thread). It requires condition duration, and precision, to stack any more.

No. The defensive stats gained from running Dire greatly out-weighs the minimal additional on-proc bonuses of the crit-based outlets, with the exception of Dhuumfire/Incendiary Powder; which requires little precision as both have a 10 sec CD.

Condition specs do damage over time. They don’t instantly burst down a target like a Thief or Mesmer running a power build. Therefore they rely on their ability to survive to be fully effective. Dire gear is objectively the best stat combination for that in PvP game modes. Condition duration is attained through trait lines and food (Rare Veggie Pizza). Precision, if you really want it, is also easy to attain through consumables and sigil stacks.

They’re worlds apart. Don’t compare power build investment to condition build investment, because it’s laughable. Condition builds can attain near maximum damage output whilst also achieving bunker-like defensive stats. Power builds can’t even come close with the mandatory heavy investment in three separate stats.

Tim.6450:

well I have some news for you:

good news is that condition damage requires three stats for full damage namely condition damage , condition duration and precision.

No. It only needs condition damage. Condition duration can be attained solely through consumables, stacks, and trait line bonuses. Power professions can’t attain all of their power, precision, or critical damage via those outlets. They have to invest those stats in their equipment, which conditions builds do not. You can go pure Dire with a condition spec, and then get everything else you may want (ie. condition duration) purely from one-off and/or cheaper methods that you don’t need to invest in.

It’s hardly balanced between the two.

Xaylin.1860:

Is this going to lead in the direction of non-competitive PvPers not having a clue about anything?

Yes? The reason I proposed this change was based on the position Mesmers are in right now in PvP game modes (ie. tPvP and WvW roaming).

Xaylin.1860:

When you think longterm, moving DE up to the GM tier might actually result in more build diversity than moving it down. People would have to decide wether to frequently shatter (DE) or have strong shatters (IP) or maybe both but sacrifice a lot of survivability/support in return. It might also lead to buffs to the baseline performance of Mesmers. Because right now, DE makes up for many shortcommings we have. ANet won’t recognize it as long as almost everyone runs DE.

This is a horrible idea. It would completely kill Mesmers in PvP, period, and we’re already right down the bottom, just above the Ele.

In the long-run, it might make ANet realize, “Maybe we should give Mesmers more survivability and/or damage output without them needing to utilize DE.” But that would require a complete class overhaul, since majority of our builds/traits are built around our ability to generate illusions. It’s not going to happen. These “revolutionary” ideas that people suggest are all ideal and cool to theorize about, but they’re fantasies. Look at more realistic changes, like the one I’m suggesting here.

Xaylin.1860:

• It improves meta builds. I’m scared when thinking about 30/10/0/0/30.

That’s the point. The Mesmer’s place in the meta right now is near the bottom, as far as PvP modes are concerned, and it doesn’t look like ANet are going to be bringing other professions down to our level. Ergo, these kinds of buffs are becoming necessary.

Power creep.

Xaylin.1860:

Oh, really?

So maybe I do have a clue what I’m talking about?

You are right that the likelihood of my idea is lower. I’m afraid though that your proposed change will do more harm than good. I’d rather not see it happen.

The only potential harm giving us more room to work with DE will do, is potentially create one or two over-powered builds. But that’s how balancing works. Warriors have been at the top of the PvP meta for months now. Necros were OP right after their initial condi buff. Etc, etc. And even then, it’s not a guarantee in light of those aforementioned builds still being very powerful and present right now.

CrazyCanuck.4265:

Since you failed to respond to my first post, Ill post again. DE is not a necessity for any playstyle or any game mode in guild wars 2. It is a crutch, pure and simple. Does it make certain things easier to handle? Sure it does. Are there other just as useful traits/weapon skills/utilities for handling those same things? Yes there are. Saying that without a certain trait, the class is significantly weaker is the reason why it is a trait in the first place… Mesmer is perfectly capable of performing at the top level in pve/pvp/wvw without this trait, just because you haven’t figured out doesn’t mean it isnt possible.

Go solo queue in PvP without running DE. Record your fights. Post the video here.

Then we’ll talk.

Albo.7605:

Jackums.3496:

I dyed some parts of the armor silver to try and give it a sort of “plated robes” look.

I play greatsword & sword/sword shatter, so I’m going for the whole battle-mage look.

Love the set! Mind listing the armor pieces you’re using?

Feathered Headpiece
Sorcerer’s Epaulets
Masquerade Raiments
Feathered Gloves
Sorcerer’s Pants
Feathered Boots

They’re ignoring roaming and focusing solely on the blobs of players running around the map together (and PvE), and balancing based off of that.

Ie. Have fun roaming as any sort of power build come the feature patch.

Xaylin.1860:

Jackums.3496:

Xaylin.1860:

The thing which bothers me: People are just way too used to permanently running DE that they can’t even imagine doing fine without it (e.g. 30/10/30). And even if you could not do without DE – never ever – then moving it down is the wrong thing to do. Because this would hint at a substantial issue with the class design which requires a more throughout rework than just moving it down a tier.

People don’t run DE just because they want to. Are you honestly suggesting that Mesmers are just as powerful without it? Have you played tPvP or roamed in WvW recently? Deceptive Evasion is necessary, because without it we’re significantly weaker.

As I already said: If you feel that DE is a necessity than moving it down one tier is pointless. In this case it should be innate. Everything else would be a halfhearted solution because it doesn’t adress the real issue of the class. Don’t sugarcoat it with ‘more build diversity’.

It has nothing to do with how I feel. It is a necessity, and spending any substantial amount of time playing competitive PvP would make that quite clear to you, which I’m assuming you haven’t, based on your responses so far.

Nothing is being sugar-coated. Moving DE down, and therefore lowering its cost, would give us more options in building our specs. That’s a fact.

And, yes, of course making it an innate ability for the Mesmer would be ideal, but as I already explained earlier in the topic, the likelihood of that happening is quite low, IMO, and so I never even suggested it to begin with.

Xaylin.1860:

I was referring to shatter builds because a DE change would affect them the most. When talking about interrupt builds, people actually already play 30/10/30 builds. Interrupt builds depend on Clones a lot less in general as long as not running Imbued Diversion.

To go with your interrupt example, the current somewhat meta set up is 20/20/30 for every non-shatter centered interrupt build. With your suggested change some might be more inclined to go 30/10/30 than as it is now. However, many might still go 20/20/30 because they need either Blade Training or Duelists Discipline. The result is a 20/10/30 meta set up with spare 10 points.

My point wasn’t that there aren’t other pre-existing builds similar to that.

I was making a point of the fact that many builds have potential for improvement if they only required 10 points in Dueling as opposed to the full 20.

The example I gave was of a more effective interrupt build.

Xaylin.1860:

The thing which bothers me: People are just way too used to permanently running DE that they can’t even imagine doing fine without it (e.g. 30/10/30). And even if you could not do without DE – never ever – then moving it down is the wrong thing to do. Because this would hint at a substantial issue with the class design which requires a more throughout rework than just moving it down a tier.

People don’t run DE just because they want to. Are you honestly suggesting that Mesmers are just as powerful without it? Have you played tPvP or roamed in WvW recently? Deceptive Evasion is necessary, because without it we’re significantly weaker.

Xaylin.1860:

Jackums.3496:

Xaylin.1860:

Moving down DE a tier does not improve build diversity. It just open ups 10 points. DE will still be mandatory. Shatter builds will still lack build diversity.

10 spare points is build diversity, because you’re not forced to go 20 into Dueling, and therefore have more points to allocate elsewhere (ie. diversity).

How is it build diversity when still everybody picks DE?
How is it build diversity when the remaining 10 points all land in the same spot?

Because you can then take a combination of traits that weren’t possible to take together with Deceptive Evasion in the Master tier.

Eg. A 30/10/30/0/0 lockdown build, taking both Confounding Suggestions and Chaotic Interruptions without the need to hurt your build by giving up Deceptive Evasion as you’d be forced to if it required 20 points into Dueling, as it does now.

Different potential combinations of traits is build diversity.

Xaylin.1860:

Moving down DE a tier does not improve build diversity. It just open ups 10 points. DE will still be mandatory. Shatter builds will still lack build diversity.

10 spare points is build diversity, because you’re not forced to go 20 into Dueling, and therefore have more points to allocate elsewhere (ie. diversity).

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Jackums.3496:

For the purpose of negating clone-death builds? Why not just solve that issue at its source and nerf Debilitating Dissipation instead?

Why should it be moved down at all? Mesmer have more builds that are viable that some other classes. So why is this such an issue i don’t know. If it is to be moved down, then something must be reduced/nerfed to compensate for it being moved down.

Have you played any form of PvP mode recently? (ie. tPvP or small-scale WvW) They hardly have any range of “viable” builds. The closest we have is shatter in tPvP (which is hard-countered by Thieves, and are inferior back-cappers) and PU for WvW roaming (which is a single build that’s actually reliable to roam with in the condi meta).

Bringing up Eles doesn’t negate the issue.

Ross Biddle.2367:

DE should be a class feature and not traited at all. Only then will build diversity open up for mesmers. It doesn’t matter if you don’t like the sound of that, it’s the truth.

This was what I was initially going to suggest, but it seems too drastic and would generate too much whine to really be considered.

jportell.2197:

However it is highly unlikely. There is no real reason for ANET to not consider it and possibly do it.

The reason is balance and build diversity, the latter of which ANet constantly talk about wanting more of. I’d say that’s a pretty significant justification for the change.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

They go back to the idea about not creating new clones if you have 3 up when you dodge, then fine i wouldn’t mind it going down to 15point trait. If not – Then it should stay where it is.

For the purpose of negating clone-death builds? Why not just solve that issue at its source and nerf Debilitating Dissipation instead?

jportell.2197:

I would love for this to happen. However I don’t see anyone in the community being behind this except mesmer players.

But, realistically, what argument is there against it? Mesmers are fairly “low” on the tier scale as far as sPvP and WvW is concerned right now, with the exception of PU builds, which are an issue due to PU and/or clone-death traits, not Deceptive Evasion.

They’re utility bots, first and foremost, and assuming the feature patch doesn’t change that, I’d say this proposed change would really help bring them up a bit.

It has been discussed more frequently lately in the Mesmer forums; moving Deceptive Evasion down to the Adept (Major) tier would immensely improve the profession’s build diversity, and with their current state in the PvP (sPvP and WvW) meta, it’s much needed.

The Dueling trait line is already so good because it’s filled with great traits, so there will always be incentive to invest deeply into the line. However, moving Deceptive Evasion down to the Adept tier alone would increase the amount of viable build options tenfold. There are very, very few Mesmer specs that don’t require this trait, to the point that it has essentially become as much a class mechanic as our shatter skills.

Having those extra ten points free to put elsewhere would result in a multitude of new options for Mesmers to spec into and create new builds. Thoughts?

nGumball.1283:

GW2 is a superior game to almost every MMO in the western industry atm and Wildstar/ESO are both average ones. People would like WS/ESO for a fresh experience however neither bring anything major to the industry.

I have to agree with this. As an overall package, GW2 is one of the best MMOs available right now. I have ESO pre-ordered and will very much enjoy it, but I’m not under any illusion that either it or Wildstar will be superior to GW2.

>Mesmer
>“meta”

I dyed some parts of the armor silver to try and give it a sort of “plated robes” look.

I play greatsword & sword/sword shatter, so I’m going for the whole battle-mage look.

I agree that immobilize is too powerful right now (due to stacking), but not that chill is. Chill is a relatively rare condition with a mostly short duration.

The former, however, needs to be toned down; immobilizing stacking reverted.

Renny.6571:

Where is p/d shadow arts dire thief on this list.

It should be #1, as far as WvW is concerned.

Thief is my second-most played profession.

The skill is clearly overpowered due to the fact that it has high damage, stuns, evades, and is relatively cheap and therefore easy to spam. It has too much for one skill.

Either remove the stun, evade, or increase its cost.

It’s too much reward for too little risk.

There are 8 topics on the first page of this forum, alone, asking for dates for future updates. Multiple ANet responses, all avoiding the question.

The toxicity is excessive, yes, but you can’t expect players to be anything less than frustrated at the terrible lack of communication being shown right now.

Rickster.8752:

Look. Here are the facts:

1, The balance that we have been told about was expressively stated as being during the first feature patch. – Karl and ready up crew
2, March 18th will not be the feature patch but a maintenence build – Grouch and Allie
3, The feature patch is due in “late spring/early summer” – colin johanson.

It really isn’t complicated.

And this is how ANet intend to communicate dates? By getting us to connect the dots between various statements that not everyone would’ve been aware of? How about they just say, in one statement, “This is the time period to expect x update, which entails x changes.” I’d say that’s the more coherent way of communicating with players.

Utter lack of communication.

No idea when to expect balance updates. No idea when to expect PvP reward updates.

gesho.9468:

now that i know, i can think of SOME counters, but this is over the top. and they want to tag dhoomfire to it?

Oh, really? Just some counters to the slow-moving projectile being used by the low-mobility power Necro that goes down like a wet noodle? You mean, like situational awareness? Dodging? Blocking? Invulnerability? Stealth? CC?

You’re right. There are some counters.

Qaelyn.7612:

Basically, they gave up.

Joonks.7501:

Thanks for clearing it up, Allie.

kitten , there are some really rude people on here.

Agreed.

Thanks for the clarification.

IIRC, in a future patch we’ll be able to use all PvE skins in PvP, and vice versa, so while it sucks that you can’t convert the skin now, you’ll be able to use it in PvP eventually.

http://dulfy.net/2014/02/18/gw2-spinal-blade-backpiece/

Aberrant.6749:

“Almost maximize” =’s ignoring cond duration and on crit cond procs… so… two other stats… like power is the only stat you need to “almost” maximize direct damage… ignoring pre & crit dmg…

No. Condition duration isn’t even remotely as necessary to maximize damage as precision and critical damage is for a direct damage build. They’re not comparable.

Demaciaa.2380:

Unfortunately, conditions do nowhere near the sustained DPS berserkers do.

Not really relevant when battles are won/lost in a matter of seconds in PvP situations, in which condition builds often have the advantage due to being able to attain maximum condition damage and bunker-like stats simultaneously (more-so in WvW via dire gear). On top of that, numbers aren’t everything when considering the invaluable utility that a lot of conditions grant. How much superior is a power build’s DPS when they have a high uptime of weakness on them? Or are blinded during their burst? Or have trouble actually hitting their target due to long durations of cripple and/or chill?

There is a very noticeable imbalance between the two types of build in PvP, whereas PvE is the opposite, as it actually does center more around DPS (bosses, etc).

Tim.6450:

Jackums.3496:

Tim.6450:

Also you’re complaining that a player that goes for a damage-bunker style is doing more damage than control-bunker style? This is what I got from your post.

No. It’s making a point of the imbalance between power and condition damage.

yet you said that your power build does control while the condition build does condition damage.

Look again. I didn’t create this topic. I was simply correcting your false assumption.

Tim.6450:

Jackums.3496:

The former relies on three stats to be effective (power, precision, critical damage), whereas the latter only requires one (condition damage). Therefore the latter can build into defensive stats whilst maintaining the condition damage equivalent of a zerker power build.

Before you mention condition duration; it’s a completely optional stat that can be increased quite sufficiently through consumables already.

What about precision? It is a necessairy component to increase condition damage, it increase the amount of stacks that are created on the enemy.

It’s not necessary in any sense. It boosts damage with certain builds (Engi and Necro), but isn’t at all needed to be viable, and even excel.

There are also boons (Fury) and food to increase it, if you really want it.

Tim.6450:

Also there exist -40% condition food as well, which balances it.

And?

Tim.6450:

Also conditions even hitting like a zerker?? in dire gear??? Are you even serious? Condition damage is lower then zerker by default.

I said the condition damage equivalent. Condition builds can almost maximize their damage through a single stat alone, whereas direct damage builds have to invest in three stats. That’s the simple fact of the situation, and is an imbalance by definition, as it allows condition builds to almost maximize their damage, whilst simultaneously possessing the defensive stats of a bunker, simply by using dire gear.

It will be a buff, yes.

To condition builds.

Tim.6450:

Also you’re complaining that a player that goes for a damage-bunker style is doing more damage than control-bunker style? This is what I got from your post.

No. It’s making a point of the imbalance between power and condition damage. The former relies on three stats to be effective (power, precision, critical damage), whereas the latter only requires one (condition damage). Therefore the latter can build into defensive stats whilst maintaining the condition damage equivalent of a zerker power build.

Before you mention condition duration; it’s a completely optional stat that can be increased quite sufficiently through consumables already.

I have no idea why this is still a thing. It’s completely ridiculous.

DPS Guardians have some of the most painful damage in the game, in my experience, partly due to the way it’s applied, particularly in a meditations build.

I don’t think damage needs to be buffed. Mobility? Eh, sure, I guess.

I’d still take a Thief or Mesmer over a good zerker Guard to fight, any day.

killahmayne.9518:

I guarantee if other classes had their heals nerfed by 640 HPS or even 8% there would be a lot of whining and complaining on the forums.

Because all of the other professions don’t have over-powered heals, the highest base HP and armor in the game, a whole utility bar of immunity skills, very efficient and frequent condition cleansing, all in combination with consistent and high DPS.

Their complaints would be warranted. The Warrior’s are not. It’s over-powered.

FreekPalmer.2839:

The argument was if you stood in the poison field you would stack poison for days, but surely you’d just move?

So, basically, an Engi gets a free point decap every time they throw their poison nades on point? I’d say the reason for the skill’s nerf is quite obvious as far as tPvP is concerned.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Jackums.3496:

That’s the cost of playing passive AI builds. Working as intended.

It’s clearly not working as intended, it’s a bug. If necromancers had a skill that instantly vaporized all mesmer clones, there would be an uproar from the community.

Nope. I’d be fine with Moa Morph destroying my illusions if used on me. It’s a skill that can be blocked, dodged, and has a 180 second cooldown.

Really? You’re complaining about Ele survivability? Really?

1. Elementalist
2. Ranger
3. Mesmer

That’s the cost of playing passive AI builds. Working as intended.

No. This would kill Mesmer survivability.

Revealed should be applied on block. That’s enough to tone done the cheese.

Nerf = Warrior
Buff = Ele

This is from a PvP perspective. PvE-wise, buff Ranger.

Blatantly over-powered, yes.

Block, yes

Evade/miss, no.

Agreed.

/15char