Guild Wars 2

Maugetarr.6823:

You got me wrong. Moving Preparedness to baseline and the CDR of SoH doesn’t give D/P thrice as much, but rather gives options to thieves to not take trickery.

And that is a point for what now? D/P doesn’t have to cose trickery anymore as they have at it gives on their set anyway. Yes, every other thief though “still has to take it”.

Maugetarr.6823:

How would you nerf D/P down to the level of uncompetitiveness as D/D though without harming P/P, S/P, and D/D? The only unique skill it has is shadowshot.

Sir Vincent already explained it, I already explained it and yes, we’re talking about shadowshot. I want all weaponsets to be equally strong anf for that D/P has to be nerfed. Doesn’t mean I want them all to be useless.

Maugetarr.6823:

Yes, IIRC shadowshot has a 1.3 multiplier and CnD has a 1.25. However I’ve already adressed the fact that if …

There is no reason why SS does more damage than CnD none!
Even if you take the DPS in a pvp scenario D/P would be better off by far.

Maugetarr.6823:

First of all, the unblockable portion of the shadowshot was a method to overcome the issue that this set had with reflections. When the shot wasa reflected it actually teleported your target to you and then cleared the blind with the strike automatically, so they’re probably not changing that part of it. The other parts you’ve mentioned though are just going to make certain traits mandatory. It doesn’t help, and honestly we end up with a bunch of useless traitslots that can only be used by one weaponset, and even more specifically to you example, one specific weaponskill.

So? that was an example of how I imagine traits to be like to that all builds would benefit from it. You can take the blind out or you can take the damage out instead – or you can create a trait additionally to this as it would be rather weak for D/P anyway if they still kept their unblockable on theri SS.

Maugetarr.6823:

Uh, sure, but that would buff D/P with an unblockable headshot….. and herein lies the problem. The steps you want to take have a ripple effect boosting the already successful weaponsets. Let’s look at the common factor in all the underperforming sets, which happens to be offhand dagger, and make adjustments there.

Alright, so what do you think: we all should just play D/P and shut up?

Aidal.4901:

OP needs to get her priorities straight.

At least you realized that I’m a she – kudos for that.
Learn a bit more about thief though, will you? =)

@ Maugetarr: Right now D/D and P/D also P/P and even SB (can’t speak for staff S/D and S/P) – have got no traits.
My idea isn’t really to make traits mandatory but to offer them some viability². Basically like we had it before June as everybody was free to chose whatever traits they wanted to and it still worked for most sets. Nonetheless D/P was comparatively OP even then although a lot weaker than it is now.

You did get that part when I said that thanks to trickery D/P has got 2 CCs and 2 gap closers, right? Also the only limitation they had (initative) is redundant.
So with that line D/P gets twice as much as any other thief. You can make it baseline, then they’ll get thrice as much. Or did I get you wrong?

I’m not looking backwards at the problem, I actually see that buffing other sets isn’t that easy – baba said it the other day and he is partially right: we can’t just give every other set the same abilities – which would be difficult in case of D/D anyway.

Look up the skills: SS does more damage.
Usual D/D combo: CnD + steal, BS
Usual D/P combo: SS + steal, BS

Edit: ² In case of D/P I would imagine making traits that give them some of the utility they have now back – so probably the blind, unblockable or the damage SS does. They’d have to sacrifice some of their traitslots to either get back the utility they have now or chose different traits = they have less utility on their weaponset.

ETA: How about “your offhand weaponskills become unblockable” a trait like that? That would suit all 2 handed weaponsets. Althought it might be OP in case of DB.. but not with an ICD.

Aidal.4901:

You could form your argument a bit better?

Sure I can: If you have no idea how to use that weaponset then why are you even trying to tell me that I’m wrong?!

Aidal.4901:

Jana.6831:

D/P isn’t melee – try D/D for a bit and realize that the gap closer 3 offers you a completely different playstyle which isn’t melee.

I’m confused, the source of my damage is a melee attack. Specifically, with this patch it’s dagger AA.

Two: I don’t even use shadow shot……

Then I can’t help you.

@ Aidal: D/P isn’t melee – try D/D for a bit and realize that the gap closer 3 offers you a completely different playstyle which isn’t melee.

@ Maugetarr: The problem and reason why I called for a nerf is that each thief has got access to all traits – that was the initial “problem”.
Overall all other sets either need a massive buff (which isn’t that easy as D mainhand and D offhand, P mainhand and P offhand always have the same skills – and it just happens to synergize ridiculously well with D/P) – or D/P should be toned down so we can get useful traits “for all” thieves (D/P is that independend that it works with any traits) which wouldn’t make D/P op and call for an overall nerf for thief which would leave us at the start again.
If you look at all traits D/D, D/P, P/D usually use, you’ll find that all possible builds are suited for D/P, that’s another problem. And it’s really their playstyle – hidden killer doesn’t really help me even with the buff – it further buffs D/P – it feels as if our class revolves around D/P.
I also mentioned that D/P now does more damage than D/D and I don’t see why this is justified.

And yes this thread was also meant as a “HEY ANET WE’VE GOT A PROBLEM, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!!”
I mean they can bring out another expansion with new elites or they can care for the x vanilla specs of all classes which have been left behind.

Edit: Added stuff as the former sentence didn’t make sense.

Just read the freaking thread!

Paulash.5814:

Totally Agree! You know what we should do? Let’s remove stealth, boons, and damage modifiers from thief so that only the really skilled people can play them! Stupid jokes aside, the presence of some passives does not eliminate the need for skilled gameplay.

Good luck killing a thief who built for evades

Yes, some passives are nice/ok – but there’s too many of them flying around.

yolo swaggins.2570:

What is the problem with this forum and passives? Thief is the least passive profession out of all professions.

The evades are passives – you hit someone and evade at the same time.
There’s too many of all of it around in this game. It’s fine – but the game has got nothing to do with skill anymore. And; you can’t play this game without overloading yourself with passives. Not a problem I have with thief but this game in general.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Sprinkling any class with passives allows players unfamiliar to the profession to easily pick it up and use it but not excel at it. It helps create a more vibrant community within the class and provides opportunities to apply fresh perspective to old knowledge. And secondly, it helps curb toxic elitist BS. The last thing this community needs is toxic elitist BS. Please don’t let it get to that point.

Thieves have always been elitists and passives are poison to any game that isn’t PvE. I was fine learning thief without most passives – but alas back then I had a good sustain line which I’m now missing.

yolo swaggins.2570:

And if any of you forgot, Hard To Catch used to be the worst trait in the game. Assassin’s Reward which was statistically a pile of kitten got a noticeable buff.

Yeah, now it’s a passive.

Don’t really get your post, tbh. I know that a lot of guys are overreacting but so are you with this post and truth being told: it isn’t that thought through.
Our sustain line was SA, the training wheel – lies murdered in the gutter.
Even if there were a similar traitline we’ve got overpowered class a, b and c and revealed a, b, c – you can’t learn this class or learn how to play anymore as it’s all more or less RNG.

Just logged out: SA was changed, really?
I’m taking CiS in GM personal though – anet hates me.
But I don’t think it would change that much anyway – it’s just that I don’t get this descision at all.

I’m not happy with the general brainless direction of this game.
“Come here, I’ll show you my skill with my random passives” “no problem, I’m gonna counter you with mine!” “Hah, your random passives aren’t random enough, I landed a hit!!” “Good Game, lad!”

You can enter it late = be in it for 2 seconds and leave = you’re stealthed for a shorter time – but as long as you leave the circle before the house disappears you’re revealed.
Maybe you confused these two things.

jheryn.8390:

No, I did NOT confirm that there isn’t a problem. There may not be a problem for you or me, but there is for the OP and many others. Whether or not you understand it is irrelevant.

Read – understand = realize there’s no problem – everything has stayed the same just that one skill does a bit less damage wheras the other 2 have been buffed = mechanics stayed the same unless you liked 1111 which requires no skill whatsoever (not even for thief in PvE but that’s a whole different topic).

jheryn.8390:

Um no. Reading comprehension is your friend. That is why I said, “It is just my opinion.” No blanket statements. Just opinions.

“You have no right to say what 10k players you’ve met think because I assume you can’t know – that’s why I’m calling you a liar”

Again, reading comprehension should be your friend – have a nice day.

jheryn.8390:

I didn’t realize that you had spoken with 10k players about their hatred for PvE.

I didn’t say “hate” I said “don’t care” – the why I already explained – please don’t get things wrong just because it suits you.

jheryn.8390:

It doesn’t make you less wrong, however.

So yeah – let me rephrase: “Some PvE players do care about PvE – they still don’t understand how this game works which is kind of sad as they see a personal attack behind every nerf.”

jheryn.8390:

It is just my opinion, but I would believe that with as much effort as they put into PvE over the other two areas of play, that PvE has much more of an impact on the game than the 10k people you are intimately familiar with that care nothing for PvE. So, again my opinion, there are a vast amount of people who care very much for PvE and that would matter to any business to keep their majority happy.

Do they really put that much effort into balancing PvE? No, they don’t – the game is still majorly balanced around PvP – so the cosmetics are for PvE yes, and that might seem as the majority of efforts. (And really: I usually know the players on my servers – I’ve been to a few and guess what: we talk about balance and or pve/pvp in mapchat)

jheryn.8390:

Making blanket statements of fact is silly. You have no concrete proof of those statements either.

I hope you realize that this is what you’re doing right now.

jheryn.8390:

Back on the threads track. It doesn’t matter if you can “hit mobs with wet noodles” and they die. People like their mechanics and when they are altered, it bothers them no matter what game mode we are talking about. It bothers the OP that the Rev was nerfed.

So if the damage is nerfed the mechanics are altered – well alright then…

jheryn.8390:

Although I don’t have a problem with the adjustments made to the Rev like the OP does, I understand where he is coming from. Just as I don’t understand how you can make ludicrous statements about PvE.

I do too – I already wrote that in my first post. That doesn’t mean there’s a problem though and you just confirmed that there is none (the mechanics stay the same, no matter whether or not one of your skills is slightly nerfed – I’d understand the outrage if a set was rendered completely useless but that is very rarely the case or if it was completely OP and needed to be gone even from PvE).

Edit: Typos

jheryn.8390:

Jana.6831:

TheOnlyGingerPig.5642:

Sad about Revenant nerf… like to press one button… try the new overpowered class of thief….

Can I say it? Yes, I can:

No one cares about PvE.

You can say it. You’re wrong. But you can indeed say it.

I care very much about PvE. I enjoy it a lot.

Can someone tell me why I didn’t get the ballot to vote on Jana getting to speak for everyone?

None of my friends cares for PvE, none of the 10k players I’ve played wvw with cares for PvE.
The reasons I’ve already listed – we’re more than you think.

Sourde Noire.5286:

Addressing 1/3 of the point and then making a blank statement, good job.

As for your first statement: I care about PvE, and I couldn’t care less about PvP and WvW. Now what? Doesn’t change that across the board balancing of 3 game modes with the same skills is just unnecessary and annoying.

Umm.. 1/3 of the point – so I should talk about warrior and eles as well – I can’t and don’t want to, sorry.
Point is: you could hit with a wet noodle in PvE and still be alright because the mobs are balanced around the classes, not the other way around = it doesn’t really matter what you do in PvE.
Thing is and that’s why it’s all across 3 game modes: Usually pvp balance is enough as the constellations of the parties vary and the goal is to make every class equally balanced – or better was as we had no trinity before HoT. That is enough for all game modes.
The advantages: people who have played pve but want to try wvw or pvp aren’t left confused as to why the stuff they’re doing in PvE doesn’t work in pvp or wvw. You can however make 3 different balances and leave the PvE players out of those game modes as it’s very unlikely they’ll enjoy it if they give it a try.

ETA: And yes, this game needs balance but PvE should be the least of the concerns- we’ve run dungeons with 4 thieves (the 5th was either afk or we had none) and it worked – why wouldn’kitten It’s PvE. It doesn’t help if you guys cry every time your Op class is slightly nerfed as that’s whats holding balance back. And anet themselves as they waited too long to balance stuff (we had no real balance patch since June).

Azure Prower.8701:

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Trickery is already a staple so the evade uptime and burst damage is already here. By making Preparedness baseline, it can open up a wide range of builds. Increasing AA damage doesn’t change anything in terms of diversity, thus doing it the wrong way.

It wouldn’t help my D/D thief tbh.

Of course it will since you’ll have more initiatives at your disposal, however the goal is to encourage diversity.

As long as I can’t land a CnD because the enemy is faster, evades, has passive and active blocks it won’t help me one bit.

Isn’t that what Basilisk Venom is for?

Alright: “Oh, there’s an enemy, let me just get my BV (5s clear animation), then, I’m gonna pre cast CnD (1s), then I’m gonna steal…”

Honestly; being a D/D thief is hard work.

Any other class: “Oh, there’s a D/D thief, gonna faceroll my keyboard”

ETA: I hope you get my point: Anet messes the game up and instead of fixing things they make it harder for some to get “equal” results they had before – great!

Yes, or unblockable CnD – and I’m not so sure that I like the only (theoretical) option to be fighting OP with more OP.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Trickery is already a staple so the evade uptime and burst damage is already here. By making Preparedness baseline, it can open up a wide range of builds. Increasing AA damage doesn’t change anything in terms of diversity, thus doing it the wrong way.

It wouldn’t help my D/D thief tbh.

Of course it will since you’ll have more initiatives at your disposal, however the goal is to encourage diversity.

As long as I can’t land a CnD because the enemy is faster, evades, has passive and active blocks it won’t help me one bit.

TheOnlyGingerPig.5642:

Sad about Revenant nerf… like to press one button… try the new overpowered class of thief….

Can I say it? Yes, I can:

No one cares about PvE.

Sourde Noire.5286:

Hey, we can’t all play thieves or staff eles or PS warriors with their overly complex rotations.

Oh wait.

Give it a shot, thief is squishy in all 3 game modes – unless you don’t have a good party you’ll have to work for your AA.

Make it 8 months, they will have an excuse like HoT to skip the balance patch.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Trickery is already a staple so the evade uptime and burst damage is already here. By making Preparedness baseline, it can open up a wide range of builds. Increasing AA damage doesn’t change anything in terms of diversity, thus doing it the wrong way.

It wouldn’t help my D/D thief tbh.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I was just stating the reason I remember Anet Devs saying why they buffed Dagger and Staff AA damage. When only Sword need the rework to due clunky mechanics

I know – I was more talking generally than really referring to you – I just quoted you because you “quoted” anet.

Doggie.3184:

Jana.6831:

Doggie.3184:

This is why Core Thief should have Axe so we can be like Lara Croft and climb and kill with it. :| Climbing Axe OP.

Lara Croft usually had a hook on her rope – I’ve never seen her using an axe.
She has Uzis though – so whenever you heard me screaming “Uuuuhhh Uzzziiiiiiiss” (found them) or “Kitten, no ammo anymore” (used them) – you knew what I was doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBKdL9V23S0

She’s a Shortbow/Axe Teef.

Good she was buffed in TR 7 or 8 – I didn’t play that far.
And I wouldn’t really call her a thief. Although she raids tombs – maybe the kitten of a thief and necro?

I don’t want to be support, tbh. The SA line as it is now is a botched support botched sustain line.
I’m fine if there were options so one could chose a support role, but I don’t want half of the support traits to be minors.
Shadow Protector is that weak that it’s not worth taking it.

So, Anet, how about reworking that line?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The only reasoning they gave for AA dos increase was Anet wanting Thief to Use Initiative for its defenses instead of purely offense. And as stated the build you used to make the 6k damage the majority of Thief Mains would never use since Trickery is Mandatory. Yes you can achieve the 6k dps but to do so. You have to give up any survivability Utilities and a virtually required trait line. Granted Staff and Dagger did not need the AA dmg buff to begin with, only Sword AA needed the work so it could be viable alongside Dagger and staff. But in Anet fashion they botched the balance.

They botched it back in June – and only realized there’s a bunker meta when watching 2 ESL teams unable to kill each other 1 month ago – although it already started in June.
I had a heated argument with one of my buddies today – he’s usually a D/D thief and switched to staff. Staff itself to me is like everything else: evades give you a broad band of being able to screw up. The other classes with their invulnerabilities and passives have the same = all of them are just smashing buttons and sometimes land a hit – to them it’s balanced.
Anyway – what defensives does a thief have? When it comes to dagger mainhand we’ve got the evolutionary all around winner: D/P. D/D still can’t land a hit = no CnD = no defense. You can argue about Basilisk Venom – haven’t tried yet.
Others have already pointed out that sword has got more utility and cleave. But maybe their AA damage will be buffed in half a year.
I bet though that the only sets that are being played then are D/P and Staff – that will probably stay like that until the end of this game.

Link.1049:

So after screwing around a bit tonight I’ve actually found that I have better luck without trickery traits. Against my intuition I put together a DA, CS, DARE staff build, and have been able to survive a bit better. The acrobatics line is a cute idea, but in practice just doesn’t work….. sorry Anet, you tried. I’m finding ele and mesmer have been brought closer to thieves balance wise, engi’s are the clear meta, and revenant is a solid second place currently, with ranger/necro tied for third. Hopefully there are a few more tweaks coming from this winter patch thing that will fix the bugs and bring things more inline. I don’t want to be some “OP god”, that said I would like to have some good, fair fights.

CS has got no sustain – but alas, I don’t know too much about your build/weapons.

Anyway: We all knew this patch wouldn’t change much – so it’s a bit weird that you expected that much.

From a personal point of view: I’m doing a bit better in wvw – but then again the Elites are still OP for my vanilla build.
So on to another 7 months of waiting for at least me.
(Btw: I don’t expect my thief to ever be viable again – I knew he was dead last June – and alas I tried and tried on the forums but to no avail – so be it)

Straegen.2938:

No class has a skill with this level of sustain.

Not sure about scrapper…

Doggie.3184:

This is why Core Thief should have Axe so we can be like Lara Croft and climb and kill with it. :| Climbing Axe OP.

Lara Croft usually had a hook on her rope – I’ve never seen her using an axe.
She has Uzis though – so whenever you heard me screaming “Uuuuhhh Uzzziiiiiiiss” (found them) or “Kitten, no ammo anymore” (used them) – you knew what I was doing.

KamiKaZe.8173:

You take a lot from the revenants and gives us nothing, it is a very hard profession to master and what you do? make it even harder and unbalanced putting the revenants – heralds at the bottom of the ladder the least effective profession now.

Thank you for destroying the revenants profession aka thanks for nothing Arena Net

They had to and it was clear from the start. They have to take a lot from other classes as well but somehow hesitate – probably because of PvE players.
I have once been one as well and I don’t really like changes anyway – there was a lot I found stupid while I was a strict PvE player. Then I started wvw and started to understand why balance is neccessary. I have done dungeons and/or fractals on nearly any class there is, not Revenant but all other 8, and never had any problems although I barely smash buttons on most. that’s why I think that PvE doesn’t need balance that much. Of course no class should be unwelcome anywhere, so all of them have to be nearly equally strong. And revenant (and others) have been a bit too strong.

But I do agree that in least wvw power revenant isn’t that easy to play if you’re not a backliner in a zerg.

So, in the old days we were the sworn enemies of rangers. Now it seems as if mesmers think we’re their hard counter.
Or: Those who hop from “OP” class to “OP” class switched from ranger to mesmer and it’s still the same crowd that complains. Next might be scrappers and that’s when it becomes ridiculous.

I want to keep the auto attack buff.
(It really helpoed in one case today – have to try it out more – but more initative is a potential problem – don’t have to tell you why)

And in general: I think I have pretty much given up on this game.
It’s nice they acknowledged thief needed a buff but what I read from the patch notes is just too little to make D/D work again, which is my spec, always has been always will be. So now it’s another 6 – x months until they finially realize that half of the traits need a rework and that other thief specs could be viable again with some minor tweaks here and there (HINT CIS IN MASTER HINT)

So, GG anet, for killing your own game.

Gibimo.2193:

and btw just blast water field when you see it
it’s placed because its called

True, but most mesmers aren’t as smart as me – and that was the point: I did what I could and I could = even though my class sucks I’m a good player and that’s what every commander should know and what I guess most people who know me know – I may suck in 1 vs 1 (nowadays) – but I still know how to play this game.

ETA: Saying “We don’t want class x” is just stupid. I can understand when something like that is said in GvGs but not in public zerg fights. Even in guild raids good commanders know that people will likely be better on their mains and usually allow them to play whatever class they like.
Btw: Had I used mass stealth I’d drawn attention to our point, so I was just stealthing him and me and healed him long enough (the healing is a joke, I know) until others noticed and came by – I then even blasted their waterfield

Gibimo.2193:

Jana.6831:

No one ever complained about me being in their zerg – for a reason.

sure no one have a rights to do that.
but still, there is efficiency.

Alright, the other day – we were at Anz, fighting a blob (being a blob ourselves) – then the third server came from SM behind us – unfortunately our commander died. He WPed and came running back – the rest of us were holding the zerg on the Bridge anz/SM. Our commander came from the left with a few who didn’t make it the first time around. I saw that he was at 5% health but he hasn’t been targeted, so he wanted to “hide” under the bridge on which end I stood. I saw it and jumped when he came in range = stealth (because of cis), meager heal. About 10 of us ran from under the bridge into the back of the enemy blob and defeated them.

I guess that’s why no one complains – I might not have the strongest class but I’m good at what I’m doing.

I’m mostly not in TS btw – I have to guess what the commander is doing – and since I’m used to it it works really well – in fact mostly better than if I were in TS (I tried) – only thing I’m missing is that I don’t know when to blast waterfields.
And that very commander and I push at the very same time – ideal, really. Yes, I run frontline if it makes sense.

ETA: For those who don’t know:
5 enemies: Group
~10 enemies: bigger group
15-25: Zerg
35-90: Blob

We were around 50 each in that case.

ETA²: I know my comment sounds a bit random. Yes, thief is weak but just before I left my first server (shortly after the ferocity patch) – everybody and their mother was kittening about how bad (haha) and useless (haha) thieves were – they weren’t wrong as at that point the pirate ship meta was yet to come and I guess the pirate ship is the reason why I can survive in zergs – but still it was uncalled for – I suck a lot more on my guard = perfect rallybot. So a commander “disliking thieves” is kind of “meh” as he should know better.

No one ever complained about me being in their zerg – for a reason.

@ Deceiver – You were one of two calling it OP – and you always did whenever the topic came to SA – over months.
I chose SA because of two traits: SE and CiS. I’d love to take SRej, but unfortunately I’m unable to. Also, I only had problems with last refuge when I was lagging – But I couldn’t take it anymore anyway since it’s all about SE – I don’t think that any thief who choses SA doesn’t trait into SE.
With all of that taken away from me there goes around 70% of my sustain, no matter how you turn it. Even in the old meta it would’ve been 50%. I can’t stealth on demand, I can’t stealth for longer than 4 seconds without SR or smokefield blast.
The 25% damage reduction while stealthed only helps while using SR – otherwise you don’t really need it, except if you’re imobilized on spot and someone throws AoE at you. The line as it is is garbage but it’s still good enough for D/P as they have far different conditions than a D/D thief. And as they can still take the traits most important to them (I’m not jealous, btw, I just don’t get why the weakest of thief builds was allowed nothing and even got nerfed while the strongest was left intact).
I probably would’ve agreed to tone down the regen by a notch, but everything else was just murder. Even taking Might from that line – We’ve discussed this as well.

So, I don’t know but most of what you say is of destructive nature. I have no idea what you post on other forums – I quit stalking a long time ago

I don’t expect too much, tbh.
So, they figured there’s a bunker meta and their answer to that: MOAR DAMAGE which won’t change a thing as long as all the passive blocks are still in game. Their answer to that: Let’s make BV unblockable. For some reason they’re too afraid to nerf other classes although they should’ve done it (in theory = traitlines) before, latest soon after the June patch. Now it’s pretty late.
But in the end: Who cares, we’re still around, more or less – it’s just not much fun anymore.
ETA: But at least the facerollers claim that this game is balanced like never before. The Espurtz-crowd however is leaving.

DeceiverX.8361:

Also, only 75 D/D thieves in WvW in two years? I’d estimate I come across one every hour at the very least.

Then say: “Right now I’m seeing at least one D/D every hour” before Hot and/or June, I met.. but you claimed:

Before HoT, I would say about a third of the thieves I encountered were playing D/D, split over S/D and D/P.

Why I already made an ETA and said that maybe a lot more condi D/D are around right now – I already said that in no way there has been a third of all thieves D/D in the past 2 years in wvw – I explained why. I think I know all popular D/D thieves and all of them have quit long ago. Like I said, the changes made to combat a year ago were pretty crucial to me and in fact I’ve met even fewer D/D thieves afterwards – maybe that was a reason for them as well – I bet most of them quit long before June – haven’t checked. But seriously; if their numbers had been that plenty they would have posted some videos on here or I would’ve come across them elsewhere.
Btw: You forgot P/D – it was very popular while I was on NA.
So, this is offtopic, but I still doubt that you know as much about this game as you claim to know – and that is important – because I think you were the reason why SA was destroyed because you were the loudest voice calling it OP. And yeah – I’m mad at whoever did this.

The patch is coming out tomorrow (for me today). We don’t know all teh changes that will be made to thief and other classes – there is some live stream thread here, I think – but even there they didn’t tell us about all changes we can expect.

ETA:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-changes-from-livestream/first

All we know for now.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

That’s the beauty of initiative and not having things like very-important cooldown reduction or important utility for specific weapons tied to our traits as other classes do. Trickery is pretty much “necessary” because it’s pretty much the best trait line in it of itself for a variety of reasons and has immense synergy with pretty much every build. I have vouched for better trait-utility and initiative management spread over more trait lines for some time, and this is more or less what the thief really needed than AA damage buffs.

Trickery is staple because it has very-important cooldown reduction contrary to your belief. It has CDR for Steal and for weapon skills. Even though Thief uses Initiatives, any initiative gains from any trait is equal to 1s CDR. So a low CD Steal that grants 2 init per Steal IS a CDR for the Thief’s weapon skills.

I mentioned this explicitly in an above post. CDR on steal, initiative, and a variety of other bonuses put Trickery into being one of the objectively best trait lines. Given initiative regeneration sources matching it in others, and flat steal cooldown, the line wouldn’t be so heavily-depended on.

But I digress.

Jana, please re-read my post. I said the following:

“Before HoT, I would say about a third of the thieves I encountered were playing D/D.”

I even mentioned this statistic has dropped heavily since.

You seriously have a tendency of twisting my words and it’s kind of annoying.

I actually didn’t twist your words – it’s just that I don’t believe you – you’re either not playing this game or are only counting the thieves of your server which you know. I know other people play/ed D/D but by no means was that a third of all thieves in wvw – no matter when (before or after ferocity, before or after HoT).
It might be that a third of the thieves of your server were and maybe on another server but if this were true in general, even if only for NA, then we would’ve seen a lot more D/D videos over the years – and we didn’t – we had maybe 4 to 5 D/D thieves the past 2 years and one of them didn’t even show himself playing D/D – he was just the second thief on my first server so I know that he’s usually D/D.

ETA: In the end; I wonder why you make a claim like this.

@ Sir Vincent:
Yes, that does mean that 100% of thieves are power D/D.
Good explanation, now I’m not that confused anymore.

@Deceiver:
I can’t get past the “A third of thieves I see in wvw are power D/D” – can’t get that out of my head.
The differences between NA and EU are few btw (I started on NA). I either have been on every EU server or fought every EU server there is. On one server (bronze) we were ~20 thieves who didn’t play D/P (most of them have quit this game after Hot), the rest of the server was rangers, bet they still are or maybe Dragonhunter now. I know most of the thieves on my servers and I meet a lot of thieves while roaming as few run with zergs. Still D/D has been very rare = I don’t can’t believe you.
Because even if the differences between the regions were that big, I would’ve seen tons of D/D videos on youtube and/or on this forum.

Honestly: I’ve been confused in other games because someone on another server had the same name – or because they had a slightly different spelled name. I don’t think any of those who thought they knew me would take the time or effort to look up the account name (in fact no one knew I was a girl until we either partied up , but my account name wasn’t enough for some, or until we were in TS, or until they introduced themselves (while already have been in a party) and I introduced myself). So, lets just keep it as it is – you can always chose a/several surname/s – I think that trouble is by far less than being confused with someone else as that is really annoying.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’m not making elitist remarks. I’m saying Rejuv and CiS are not absolutely required for D/D to function. Every single post you make about this simply isn’t true; they’re good traits. They are not required traits.

True – by that logic we can all play without traits as none of them is required for any weaponset.

DeceiverX.8361:

Acro before the nerf used to provide D/D condi with better damage via might,..

The might was neglectable – it was 2 stacks per dodge (or maybe only one – I can’t remember) and one couldn’t dodge endlessly.

DeceiverX.8361:

As far as frequency of encountering D/D thieves in WvW goes, yes, I am referring to lately, and no, I am referring to unique players. Most of them also play power (because I often fight these players),

Are you sure you didn’t see the pistol in the offhand of these guys (power D/D)? Or you are up against very bad servers.

DeceiverX.8361:

Before HoT, I would say about a third of the thieves I encountered were playing D/D, split over S/D and D/P.

And again: I don’t believe you – I have been on 6 servers and have seen 1 D/D power thief since June. I’m a platinum raider who’s been on a mainly roaming server for nearly a year – spend a few weeks or months each on every other server – Sorry, you must face very weird servers if you see mostly D/D thieves. (btw: I have been from deepest bronze to highest gold – on NA I have been the second last thief on my server before I left ~1,5 years ago).

DeceiverX.8361:

We did have a discussion about SE in the past. Neither of us could agree. Most of the people I’ve talked to or mentored since, however, have taken to the notion that SE is better at preventing death than before.

For D/P (or S/D who don’t really take SA) this might be true, yes.

DeceiverX.8361:

There was a lot of outrage initially, but people started realizing how nice it was to prioritize DoT’s when your class is on the lowest health pool with the worst DoT cleansing in the game, but some of the best control condition cleansing in the game.

Still about half of the condis aren’t cleared by stealth anymore – but alas we really had this discussion.

DeceiverX.8361:

The line is simply doing everything well that most other trait lines do not compensate for. Honestly, I don’t really use SoH for the daze so much as the cooldown reduction on steal (it’s more than what the entirety of trickery as a trait line offers).

Yes – D/P has that very utility on their weaponset – so if traited they have “twice as many” gap closers – the point is that every thief uses the nearly same stuff – so saying “we can’t give that set/trait this or that because that set already has it” makes no real sense – and this example was to show you that nearly every thief is using the same things – no matter the weaponset.

DeceiverX.8361:

If you play in a manner which does not camp stealth at all, such as the way I do, Rejuv is worthless, because I rarely spend more than a second in stealth.

I think you misunderstand the way others play – and that is one of the “elitist” remarks of you “I don’t need it, so does nobody else, so lets nerf it!!” I can barely remember how I used to play as my thief is now dead for 3/4 of a year – but I couldn’t really camp stealth except in/with SR anyway. The only ones who regulary can camp stealth are yet again D/P.

DeceiverX.8361:

rest

You’re usually in if someone proposes a change of thief which would destroy a build – that’s why I think you want this class to be dead – sorry but that’s my impression.

Edit: Wording and added some wvw info.

ETA: If you were/are really seeing that many D/D thieves, there would be more youtube videos of D/D thieves – we’ve had about 3 D/D thieves showing videos the past ~1,5 years. One was an elitist like you (maybe a fanboy) who said SA was a clutch and thus showed us footage of him fighting people in EotM. The last video he posted was staff and I think D/D. His style is very clean – I’m a bit jealous of that. Then we had nightblade who quit quite a while ago and one thief who called his videos “outnumered D/D” but meant group fights and the D/D was more dodgebow spam. There were plenty of D/P videos though. And once upon a time I saw a lot of S/D videos. There were only 3 videos posted after June – stealth trapper, the Staff+D/D and one condi D/D. I don’t think I missed all of those power D/D while flipping through youtube videos – I rather think they don’t exist.

Oh, so that is what is a problem for you – sorry, I misunderstood – I thought you meant that we need no blocklist as we shouldn’t be able to spy on people and also we would never want to unblock them anyway.
I didn’t get the trolling part at all though.

ETA: I was replying to ArchonWing though – without quoting him.

The funny thing: I played a game with a similar naming “policy” before. I started 10 years ago, quit 4 years ago, started again – but I deleted my old account when I quit.
So, I used 2 of my names from here and found that one of the names from there is still availlable here, while the other name I tested from here is also still availlable there.
Most of them are proper names and all single words. I’m kind of proud of myself that I’m really that good to find single word names no matter when or where. So, be a bit more creative – I’ve seen a lot of creative names out there – even “cosplay” and no, it wasn’t all öüäø

DeceiverX.8361:

And the thieves who do not ever use CnD when playing S/D are people not using the set to its fullest potential, or are just so much better than their opponent that it isn’t needed.

They don’t believe in stealth, I guess and I kind of think they don’t care about your opinion – I was just stating the fact.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’ve never run CiS or Rejuv outside of some Duel Arena trolling with things like my P/P healing power build. To say they’re necessary traits, especially for D/D or S/D simply isn’t true.

Not for you probably, but I somehoiw doubt that you’re playing actually. As all you seem to do is making elitist remarks and demanding that this class is being destroyed.

DeceiverX.8361:

SE also got buffed.

No, it has been nerfed- we’ve had this topic in the past. Before I could get immobilizing and fear off of me – now I can’t anymore – thus I’m being a rat in a cage and not in control over my character. And unfortunately condis are so plenty that I can’t just say that I use a trick to remove it as a trick only removes one condition as well.

DeceiverX.8361:

D/D condi didn’t really “exist” before because P/D was better at sustain in WvW and the evasion frames on old DB were strictly poor

No, it didn’t exist because Driven Fortitude, Impaling Lotus and the third dodge didn’t. As far as I remember the third dodge was already gone quite a while before acro was “reworked” – my “06440” was because I wanted extra dodges and I haven’t been able to dodge thrice in a row about 1,5 years ago, before I was. Believe me, people tried to make DB spam work. You should actually know that if you meet 1 D/D thief an hour. It’s probably the same (thief.. from your server).

DeceiverX.8361:

As far as tailor-made traits for specific weapons, I’m not fond of them. I think it artificially limits the confines of what weapons can do. I’d rather just see cooldown reduction

Cooldown reduction of what? Weapon skills or utility skills? Weapon = initative, Utility = already traits to reduce the cooldown.

DeceiverX.8361:

and bonus damage effects on weapon-specific traits made baseline as to let the trait lines see more variability in terms of what weapons can be used for what purposes and to open up doors for diversity while making the weapons more rounded and traits universally improved. This goes back on the “we need x trait for y weapon” philosophy which is part of the basis for your complaint – you think D/D needs CiS and Rejuv – so there’s no reason to provide specific trait-answers to specific problems, when the “superior” weapon will just bypass these kinds of trait dependencies and accelerate even further beyond the rests’ performance metrics.

Every thief needs the nearly same things – that’s the base of my complaint. If you look at any build you’ll see trickery with sleight of hand traited. People didn’t get how great CiS was, so they probably didn’t use it – and since the majority of people is D/P anyway they don’t need it.

Like I said: I don’t believe too much of what you claim, I’m sorry. So I’ll stick to “D/D needs CiS and SRej” – we already had that discussion as well – went on for a few weeks, I think.

ETA: My 3 dodges probably didn’t work anymore because something in the first 4 traits was nerfed and I didn’t take the whole line.
But yes, D/D spam wouldn’t work without acro as well – but I’m really certain that D/D is the smallest culprit when it comes to this build.

ETA²: If you mean you’re seeing 1 D/D an hour lately, then yes, that might be, although my last sighting of a D/D and general thief have been ~3 weeks ago.
Most are engi, ele, ranger, guard, mesmer, revenants and necros. But I’m not that active in wvw right now anyway.

@Maugetarr: My wrist can only take that much – so no, staff will never be fluid to me as the AoE circle is too close to my character.
And yes, the weapon specific traits would be likely mandatory, but my point was: Not everybody wants blind on CnD and we have ~50% useless traits.

Example: I blocked a guy in wvw who was really annoying and stupid. I had to block him because he ran around with multiple alts and had I known all their names I’d never responded to him because that always led to a kittenstorm. So, a few weeks afterwards people were talking to seemingly no one in wvw mapchat and I had a look at my blocklist and found they were talking to him, otherwise I would have had to ask and probably cause another kittenstorm. So; the location of people is shown everywhere anyway, no matter what list they’re on – as long as that stays as it is I’d like to see the location on my blocklist as well.

ETA: People don’t seem to know that the exact location of wvw enemies isn’t shown if you’re up against them. I have several friends from other servers whose exact location in wvw I can see as long as we’re not enemies for the week. That is often an argument as to why the location shouldn’t be shown on the blocklist. And; I find it very hard to get on the same server like someone who’s not in my party – so it is kind of very hard to harass someone even when knowing the location.

You seem a bit sore about P/P – so you took a simple question as an attack – I guess I better leave you alone.