Guild Wars 2

Azukas.1426:

Commenting as a neutral 3rd party (mesmer here)

DP thieves are easily countered by 2 very basic game mechanics.

1. Dodge
2. Interrupt HS

Now that that’s out of the way I agree with promoting balance for the good of the game even if you call for your own class to be nerfed. Read my nerf Mesmer posts.

But DP is NOT in any way or shape OP. This thread is nothing but self serving self proclaimed elitists trying to enforce thier style of play on everyone else. You know this same exact type of thread popped up years ago and ultimately lead to BP nerf? One could even argue that these DD thieves inadvertently paved the path to the state in which thief now resides.

So if something is broken def call for balance…not this embarrassment of a thread though.

Well, then try thief for a bit – in PvE is enough and try the different weaponsets. Read the tooltips and learn the different playstyles and find that D/P is OP in comparison of every other thief build (without DrD/staff) right now.
And please read what I wrote again to get my point and don’t accuse me of being an elitist.

Try to get my point, Aidenwolf:
D/P is the only spec that still remains viable no matter what anet does – it was the only set still viable after June – thus there wasn’t any need to worry and balance what they did to the traits in June, right?! As there were still thieves around.
D/P is incredible powerful because of the utility it has got – all its utility is what every other thief has to trait for. These traits were moved out of reach for everybody – so D/P thieves remain.
Every sustain trait can be potentionally OP in the hands of a D/P thief as they don’t have to trait their utilities but can take all sustain and damage traits they like. They don’t even need sustain traits as they’re basically not melee fighters. (because of shadow shot)
And it feels as if thief is balanced around D/P and that is wrong in my opinion and the reason for this thread. If D/P thieves are OP with certain traits that would make other specs viable, then nerf their weaponset – mainly shadow shot as it does more damage than CnD – you can really make this smart and make every weaponset viable by creating certain traits for each sets that only make sense with each of the designated sets.
And that is what I’m asking for – don’t go “aaah thieves are fine – we have a few D/P thieves in pvp, so they’re good” but make the other specs viable again – they once were. And not all of it is because of the current meta (which is in need of a change as well).

Edit: Spelling

Aidenwolf: What’s your point? Where did I ask for a buff? And what’s DD for you DareDevil or Dagger/Dagger?

Not sure, they might have done a lot for the bunker meta in pvp (runes) but not for wvw – so we’re still trapped in the mindless meta. I might finally have to switch to basilisk venom – I’m gonna miss daggerstorm.
Other than that the changes don’t sound as if they’re enough to bring the game back on track.
I would be fine with it if they’d promised to observe balance closely and throw in more patches more frequently (if needed – and I bet they will still be needed).
But maybe there is more to come – I really hope there is.

ETA: And the question still is what tehy’re going to do about stealth and reveal – I don’t really feel like watching the stream – did they say anything about it?

spartan.9421:

and jana if D/D is truly dead why keep using it? thats just extremely stupid on your part

You really want to keep calling me stupid, right?
Let me tell you this: I’m a legend on 3 servers, even though I’m a stupid D/D thief – guess why.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

that’s not true. i mean sure, can kite with d/p and then use shadow shot but then again if you are going to kite then you are not attacking so it shouldn’t matter what weapon set you play. when i use to play d/d i did kite, but i also used dancing dagger too.. at least i could hit at range.

todays age of gw2, I dont thik it is worth chancing with d/d, people are just too switched on and know what to do. 3 years of gw2 wisdom, relying on cnD and back stab just won;t cut it now. weapon sets with utialty (d/p staff) are the way to go and even they struggle. you know this i know and i know you hate me for saying this. I miss my warrior from gw1 and i know i can never go back to it.

You can hop in and out of a fight because of shadow shot – that thing is a huge advantage.
Most people have never seen a D/D thief as they’re incredible rare since I started to play 2 years ago – because that weaponset was already dead back then – it got its final kick in June and the brainless meta launched with HoT doesn’t help.
I don’t hate you and I hope you know that, even though you kittened about my cookies yesterday :P
I knew that I wouldn’t get love for this thread and I wish I had worded it better right in the OP but I was in the middle of cooking dinner. And I wanted to get it into the forums today (as today anet wants to talk about upcoming class changes – and I hope they read it and either really nerf D/P so they will have to start from scratch or do things right this time around and revive the other sets).

I like DB as it is actually. It was even better 2 years ago – from how to handle it. SB 3 catapulted me into a camp today although I was standing with my face towards it – that has been better as well in the past.
And btw it’s not just about D/D or the weapon utilities of D/P – the playstyle of D/P is also unique and different from all other sets. D/D and P/D (and staff) have to be close to their enemies, so they “need” SRej, they do better with blind – but D/D and P/D are unable to take both while D/P has got the blind twice on its set and also a port and doesn’t need the enemy to stealth.

Guess how often we have asked D/D to be buffed and CiS not to be moved to grandmaster? Now this way around. Since D/P is a low risk high reward set, compared to everything else. If nothing else can’t be viable because D/P might become OP, then lets nerf D/P so we can finally have useful traits.
I don’t mean to harm D/P thieves, I want us all to be viable. And I guess those who know me know that.

ETA: See, the reason why anet got away with all their nerfs was that there was still D/P thieves in pvp – because the weaponset itself has got so much utility (which is locked behind traits for everybody else) that it still worked no matter how bad anet screwed up. “Thief isn’t in a bad state, there’s still (D/P) thieves in pvp”.

spartan.9421:

and also jana… if you think D/P is OP please l2p or play something else

Learn to think and read.
Every other thief weaponset has got its utility from the traits which have been deleted or moved out of reach, D/P doesn’t need these traits as it has got everything on its set. The only thing that was crucial for D/P was initative, a problem that is non existent since we have 3 traitlines. The argument why we now can’t buff traits is “D/P would be OP with it” – which is true actually, so lets nerf D/P so that we can buff traits and make other weaponsets viable. Doesn’t mean I want D/P to be useless, I just don’t see why all other weapon sets have to be left in the gutter because of the utility D/P has got.
And sorry to burst your bubble but D/P is OP in comparison to every other thief set – not OP in comparison to the current “meta” right now – I’ll give you that.
(Btw: I have ~8 k hours on thief).

Good question? How about the game doesn’t adapt to only D/P as that’s the point.
Should rennlc read the thread they’re commenting on?!

reikken: I want to highlight that and why there is only one viable thief build and the arguments that always come when it’s about buffing a trait “D/P would be OP with it” – because D/P already has got everything on its set.
So if that’s teh reason why nothing really can’t be buffed, then lets nerf D/P #3 so we other thieves are allowed to have some fun too – with the difference that D/P #3 means that D/P thieves aren’t really melee fighters. And melee often is a problem.

It wouldn’t be – but there has to be a reason why it’s in GM.

It wouldn’t bother me (complaining) if I could still believe in anet seeing through this and doing the right thing – that can also mean nerfs if they’re justified and telling whiners to L2P if unjustified.
Guess why I’m annoying all of you 24/7?! Because the forums are more important than I’d like them to be.

I think D/D was the assassins’s set – but it has been nerfed that many times (and the traits it relies on) that it’s now dead. To me it has never been a hybrid weapon and hybrid has never really been a thing anyway – the poison on dagger is nice to have and has it’s use, still it’s no “condi” for me.
The nerfs they did to D/D make no sense whatsoever as D/P now does everything better and I can’t imagine that was intended but it was the logical consequence if the utility in traits is inaccessible to D/D.

ETA: D/D once upon a time did more damage than D/P – now it does less because of the nerf to CnD. Also the only limiting factor to D/P was initative to which now every thief has got plenty access to (and I actually need it with SB) and D/P is also able to take SRej which now has initative regen, but I think they had access to it before as well, can’t remember. While D/D has to decide whether they want blind or regeneration.

I hope you guys get my point: I know D/P is hard to balance because main and offhand are also used in other sets but it can’t be that our whole class is balanced around this one weapon set.
And that being said; D/P uses different traits than every other build, so I really don’t understand why all of the other traits have been either deleted, moved out of reach or can’t be taken together anymore.

ETA²: That’s not even “D/P would be OP with it” that’s “screw every other build!!!” or “this sounds good, lets put it here, while we give revs blind on every hit and every other class regen with an IcD of 5s”

You can’t make the traits more powerful or they are put into grandmaster to not make D/P op = the only halfway viable weaponset we have got is D/P (aside from staff which is a different topic).
So, let us all be unviable so they finally work on the rest of thief and not just assume that everybody plays D/P anyway and the other weaponsets don’t need care.

“Is she completely insane” yeah, I am but hear me out:

D/P is by far the best weaponset we have: gap closer, stealth “on demand”, interrupt and blind all on it.
Me as a D/D thief : Gap closer = steal (frequency depends on trickery), blind: CiS (now in grandmaster), interrupt: sleight of hand, only availlable via trickery.
A D/P thief usually doesn’t stay melee, a D/D thief has to. So, we need reliable condi clear which has been nerfed in June.
D/P now does more damage than D/D since June as the combo of a D/P thief is usually smoke field, heartseeker, shadowshot (which does more damage than CnD which is hard to land and puts the thief into the AoE range of the enemy)

So, if all traits are balanced around D/P which is the set with the most utility thief has got (staff aside) – then lets nerf D/P so the other weapon sets have got a chance.

EDIT: SUMMARY

All other thief builds had to get their utility from traits – all of these traits (except those in trickery) have been deleted back in June – the only thief build that was halfway viable has been D/P because they have all the utility other builds need to trait for on their weaponset. Still they can also trait for these utilities = have got twice as many. And since the utility on D/P is what most if not all thieves need or want (teleport, blind, smokefield = stealth) D/P are a lot stronger than any of the other thief’ builds.
Since offhand and mainhand weapon do always the same for every thief, except their distinguished #3, nerfing shadowshot and/or putting some of the utilities that is on the whole D/P set into traits would be an option. Reason: if you have nerfed the set you can buff the traits to which all thieves have got access to. Also D/P wouldn’t be as self sustained as it is now. D/P has always been stronger than any other set; simply putting back the traits the other builds need doesn’t really solve the problem, especially not since now the traits are merged. And I’d actually like to get the 50 movement speed in stealth and blind on stealth. I don’t need stealth on steal and the falling trait though.
I don’t want D/P to be nerfed to the ground, but I don’t want D/P to be the excuse why it’s not worked on thief any further – also I don’t think that simply buffing the other weapons would really bring other sets on par with D/P especially not since most of our traits are now best suited for D/P.

I do think it’s a shame that thief build diversity has been killed off in June – it’s not just about D/D, but I happen to know the set best.

The rest has been discussed in the thread – it might be sometimes painful to read.

Anet, please don’t just listen to your community – most S/D, D/D and P/D thieves have already quit – you won’t hear any suggestions from them anymore.

ETA² :
Right now a lot if not most traits favour the D/P playstyle – There’s no way other sets have access to all the traits as always 2 of them are glued together. This could be used to either redesign the traits to favour other sets (which would be an indirect nerf to D/P) or the most common traits are turned into either baseline or minor traits so every thief has got access to them. Still every set should be able to take the traits neccessary to make their set and/or playstyle work.

Gallant Pigeon.5807:

Jana.6831:

I missed it when using SB in a zerg when I tried to make a build with DrD work <— that failed because I want CiS and need SE.

@ Zero: That was a joke – all good =)

If you are building for WvW zergs…. all I will say is marauders armor and weapons, soldier / cavalier trinkets, double staff, invigorating precision and daredevil runes. The sustain and dps vs grouped enemies is unreal.

Why would I use double staff?

Urejt.5648:

“True, still anet announced to buff melee AA damage.” Jana
Ye, but i dont think they will buff numbers on all weapons autoatacks. They probably will add trait which will add dmg to autoatacks, maybe unblockable effect, or +100% dmg to the next atack when blocked

You can quote me by clicking Quote (the arrow on the right)
Anyway – I have no idea whether or not this are the true upcoming patchnotes – yet it still sounds like something anet would do. They nerfed the dmg coefficent of CnD and CnD alone – so they did that before and I guess they will do it again.
Doesn’t mean it makes much sense – the butchering of SA didn’t either, yet some people think that the traitline is “balanced” right now.

So I hope that anet will pull through and can balance the class without our conflicting input.

Although, I guess we all agree that the least we need is more dmg on our AA – but whatever.

DeceiverX.8361:

Lol.

Just thinking about those 11k Autos in WvW just makes me shake my head for anyone to think of this as a reasonable balance bump.

Precisely why my expectations for the upcoming balance patch are set to none; the thief doesn’t need more AA damage. A lot of traits and weapon skills simply just need reworks.

True, still anet announced to buff melee AA damage.

It would be broken with too much dmg on auto attack, not really overpowered.
To me pre June Engi was broken, with 75% UP skills and 25% over OP skills on 5 different sets – hammer is the first weapon of engi that makes any sense but still the core of the class seems to be all over the place.

That sounds like something anet would do. And it sounds better than what most came up with on this forum (no offense).
Still I’d like the dmg increase back on CnD – I don’t think that nerf was justified, probably wasn’t justified when it was brought into pvp either as D/D has been pretty dead for years. I want SE to be more reliable and/or other traits to remove conditions better and I really need blind when gaining stealth – CiS in grandmaster is no good.
But it’s only a start, I guess. Thief needs some more work than that and I can’t speak for S/D/Acro.

babazhook.6805:

Getting more damage off the AA also means less need for Initiative which can pull people away from the trickery line.

Before June, when I fought (I pretty much gave up on 1 vs 1 since June), it was usually CnD, BS, HS, DB, DD – always depending on the situation. I used auto attack against noobs – otherwise I couldn’t land it. The same situation is now – maybe even worse because of the passives all classes have. I can’t stay on my opponent long enough to use auto attack, they’ll either block, port or burst – come to think of it; the only situation where I can auto attack is when I’m +1. Interestingly I rarely really had troubles with initative (as D/D) even without trickery. I missed it when using SB in a zerg when I tried to make a build with DrD work <— that failed because I want CiS and need SE.

@ Zero: That was a joke – all good =)

Thief needs a sustain buff – not a damage buff, that only works if the sustain is ok. So whatever damage they’re buffing it won’t help us – of that I’m sure.
But it depends on what they’re doing against the general power creep and with the AoE and passives of other classes. So maybe it will be a buff after all (but I don’t think so).

Malediktus.9250:

everything works if you are better than the enemy, but why use something that disadvantages you against equally skilled players?

By that logic: Wouldn’t one class be enough?

Kicker.8203:

It will help lol.
If you do more base damage, it will allow you to get some vitality and toughness on your gear.

More damage on auto attack doesn’t help at all because a thief has got no sustain to auto attack, not even with clerics, not with soldier’s, not with knights. Works in usual dungeons probably, but there you can go full zerker anyway – doesn’t work in fractals or raids and not PvP/WvW.
But thanks for the help lol.

But Hot was released Halloween, and they wanted it for christmas. Now I’m confused.

The power creep alone didn’t destroy thief it added to the destruction – the class was pretty weak even before June – and that’s because everything has been nerfed over the years – you as an avid all classes player should know that.

Btw: Thief has been destroyed in June – the only spec still halfway viable was D/P – doesn’t mean it was good but it can avoid most damage and hadn’t had its core traits nerfed unlike every other thief build.

ETA: That wasn’t directed at you but everybody who says “OH NOZ MY ELITE WILL BE TONED DOWN BY ONE NOTCH – I WILL BECOME THE SECOND THIEF”

Serious Thought.5394:

All I wanted for christmas was a buff to my s/p and p/p playstyles (yay for doing both). Its a little late, and I’m only getting one. Permission to be disappointed?

How do you know sword will be buffed
Whenever changes to thief are announced you should be disappointed – you will be anyway.

Do me a favour and don’t compare your class (any other class) that is about to receive a nerf to thief. Mesmer has already been ridiculously strong since June as stuff already went wrong in June but anet obviously didn’t notice. No one at anet seems to know how thief works, so they nerfed the class for 3 years straight just to satisfy the ever whining people who cried about stealth or everything else. These random nerfs destroyed thief and it’s unlikely that the class will be back again anytime soon or that your class will be destroyed by a single nerf.

D/P 3 has always shown the animation of the dagger which in my case is stupid as I have incinerator – so trying to sneak a D/P 3 while stealthed isn’t possible – so be careful what you ask for actually

Yes, the one who feared them gets the points.
I don’t think enough has been done for defenders, btw. I probably don’t need autoupgrades although I’m in favour of them as when the enemies are serious about keeping your keep they’ll bring it up to T3 anyway and a defended keep is pretty hard to take when you’re only a small group, no matter whether or not it’s T3 – although the important thing is the supply in it, so if that doesn’t go away due to upgrades..
But most siege in the tower can be brought down with aoe in “seconds”, so I hardly bother with siege anymore anyway – that’s where I think the defense could use a “buff”.
Btw: We already had PPK in game for a week or so and nothing really changed, only that the servers who had a worse coverage were “buffed” pointwise.

Zero Day.2594:

And the devs work in different city and unfortunately don’t have any way to communicate… not even by skype or email…

I haven’t heard of you in a long while either – didn’t you get my carrier pigeon? was probably shot by a drone.

xXBAKESXx.6731:

i’d take oldschool wvw over sex with a thousand virgins

Me too, but then again I’m female so 1000 male virgins doesn’t sound like too much fun.

Zero Day.2594:

Not really expecting much.

I’m baffled they are baffled. Really. When the traitline merge notes came up most thieves said “great more damage” – Pointing out that our defenses go down the drain brought me: “Are we really playing the same game? This is great news for thieves!!” – turns out more damage doesn’t help especially not since the traitlines of other classes don’t seem to have been nerfed – who would’ve guessed?
So yes – I expect D/P being viable again half a year from now, S/D somewhen in the future and D/D never again. P/D depends mostly on what they plan to do with condis – won’t probably be viable again either, P/P never was and likely never will unless the whole weapon set gets an overhaul. SB will likely stay as it is cause #5, you know?! And I still don’t know too much about staff and I guess that weapon depends on how other classes will be nerfed/buffed.
But lets just throw MOAR DAMAGE, right? Solves everything.

Eiffel.8937:

Jana.6831:

Eiffel.8937:

Jana.6831:

Eiffel.8937:

please take a look a dragonhunter longbow skill trueshot too, that skill does so much dmg while on ranger the only dmg skill is on a long channel so it is much more easy to avoid its dmg
at the moment the dragonhunter is the much better ranger
not only are its traps much strong the bow is also stronger as on ranger
oh and of course improving some AA on ranger would be nice too as it does not even do as much dmg as current thief autoattacks

Don’t forget that you also have a pet – I hope you included that into your “we don’t do as much damage as a thief”.

no I did not forget about pets but the sad truth is that besides the two pets mentioned in this thread
the dmg from the other pets is neglectible especially if we are talking about frontline pets againts moving targets
if the pets would actually jump directly into the enemies face when I press F1 and did dmg I would not have complained about the low dmg of ranger AA compared to thieves

What auto attack are you talking about anyway? From which weapon?

here 3 Screenshots as example using sword
with zerker amulet and runes of the pack

I love arguments involving target golems – that’s so cool and says so much (our dev did that too – responsible for some nerfs as the target golem was devastated).

Here’s the thing: Thieves are that squishy that they don’t have time to stay in other classes AoE and to autoattack – that’s why increased melee AA damage won’t help at all – not even against bosses in PvE.

ETA: I meant “which ranger weapon did you mean” btw.

All you guys being outraged that there is talk of buffing thieves autoattack: They buffed thieves pistol damage a while back – did anything change, no. So: don’t be afraid – a thief rarely uses autoattack and this isn’t going to bring thief back. Nor will your classes be the next thieves with some tweaks – it took three years of random nerfs to destroy thief.

Just undo some of the nerfs and nerf the passives of other classes – that should be enough for the start.
Anet wants to go away from the bunker meta, right? More damage isn’t the answer.
We should probably make a scavenger hunt with clues why everything is as it is right now.
I do hope the new devs were around pre June when most classes were “balanced” – to compare now and then and drawn conclusions what went wrong.

Burtnik.5218:

I have never been hit once for 10+k cor on my rev and i have only..2650 armor. At best i was hit for 7k. I have also seen roaming tempest that i couldnt hit for more than 4k cor at max range so please..spare me this bs. Use proper build or learn how to position yourself.

2220 armor – I have no screenshots of the other times I’ve been hit with 10k+ – or I didn’t find them.

Eiffel.8937:

Jana.6831:

Eiffel.8937:

please take a look a dragonhunter longbow skill trueshot too, that skill does so much dmg while on ranger the only dmg skill is on a long channel so it is much more easy to avoid its dmg
at the moment the dragonhunter is the much better ranger
not only are its traps much strong the bow is also stronger as on ranger
oh and of course improving some AA on ranger would be nice too as it does not even do as much dmg as current thief autoattacks

Don’t forget that you also have a pet – I hope you included that into your “we don’t do as much damage as a thief”.

no I did not forget about pets but the sad truth is that besides the two pets mentioned in this thread
the dmg from the other pets is neglectible especially if we are talking about frontline pets againts moving targets
if the pets would actually jump directly into the enemies face when I press F1 and did dmg I would not have complained about the low dmg of ranger AA compared to thieves

What auto attack are you talking about anyway? From which weapon?

Well it’s only dragon hunter then, not guardian.

skullfaerie.7203:

What are they even patching today?

Removing the wintersday event.

Eiffel.8937:

please take a look a dragonhunter longbow skill trueshot too, that skill does so much dmg while on ranger the only dmg skill is on a long channel so it is much more easy to avoid its dmg
at the moment the dragonhunter is the much better ranger
not only are its traps much strong the bow is also stronger as on ranger
oh and of course improving some AA on ranger would be nice too as it does not even do as much dmg as current thief autoattacks

Don’t forget that you also have a pet – I hope you included that into your “we don’t do as much damage as a thief”.

Gokil.2543:

- Thief: In my experience, thief autoattacks were never weak, which is why this note surprises me. Most of all I’d like to stress that thief is a very sensitive class to balance. Nerfing its main opposition in the same patch as giving it substantial buffs can and will likely lead to trouble. As Sindrener said, it’s more the other classes being out of line, than thief being lacking in any aspect. This might sound like a ‘chicken-or-the-egg’ argument, but it’s not. This same logic does not apply so extremely to other professions. Acro changes are very welcome

You’re partly right – thief autoattacks were never weak and don’t really need a buff – the damage is too high all around (= all classes) since June – whatever the reason (I’m speaking of wvw but I think the differences to pvp are neglectable). Even before June I couldn’t really get my autoattacks in as I had to evade all attacks (it’s even worse now with all the passive regen, blocks, migation) – buffing the AA dmg while leaving the defenses as they are won’t help anything.
But: All classes dish out as much damage as a thief, so in comparison thief doesn’t do “enough” damage as the class hasn’t got enough sustain for a longer fight.
So yes, best would be to make another ferocity patch to tone down all damage of all classes and “leave thief out of it”.

ETA: So in the end what we have now: Everybody deals way too much damage but most classes have got that many passives that they can’t be hurt unless they make a grave mistake. And that is what lead to the bunker meta.

ETA²: Forgot (I wrote it a million times on the forums, that’s why) : Thief as a class is far from fine – some all or nothing builds still work but the defense is really lacking and I guess the evades might become a problem in the future when the game is halfway balanced again. One thing I’ll never get is why reveal was brought into the game as it destroys the whole SA line (which is kitten since June, btw) and also burst/repositioning even without SA = all defense (minus evades) thief has got.

apharma.3741:

Usually It takes at least 2 back stabs to kill someone, I usually follow up the 2nd back stab with a full auto chain as usually I will have the panic strike proc come out and the poison with weakness means counter burst gets heavily neutered and healing is reduced if they do heal. The full auto averages about 5k in marauder which is much better than anything else you can do especially given you want to save ini.

I only noticed it so much because shatter mesmer has no condition clear so that steal really puts them on the back foot right of the bat.

Also yeah, sorry maybe it was a bit uncalled for but many thieves do not realise how passively they keep poison on targets.

Ok, and this now answers what? nothing – right.
Goodbye apharma, please leave me alone or discuss constructively with evidence and examples and don’t just claim stuff, please.
And I know the worth of poison – I also know that it’s very hard to land in this meta right now – and I’m personally not running DA – so I don’t have a panic strike which is really good. And by the way – it’s not really passively procced if you meant that.

apharma – I know how to play thief – and I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t belittle me everytime you see any of my posts – just ignore me =)
(A thief getting an autoattack in is really rare – the poison aa deals isn’t as dangerous as you make it out to be – the other stuff I already explained with my edit, I guess).

Oh and please list the many passives thieves have got. That much I ask of you – if you say so there has to be plenty – otherwise, honestly, please ignore me!

Nah, I think I have a puma, right now – but I can have a closer look.

Edit: (pics and..)
Part of it are my traits, part is my pet, part is LB/GS (not in that screenshot, that was rapid fire alone) – my second is a bird which deals bleeding as far as I remember (the maul in the dmg log is from my pet which deals 4 stacks of vulnerability additionally)

Galandil.9641:

Jana.6831:

ETA: Right, I forgot raids – I don’t think more damage is helping in raids, tbh. But I have yet to be in one – so I can’t really judge.

Basically the raids are a DPS check, but nothing that can’t be done with a thief in party.

The problem my buddies had while in a raid was survivability – none of them thief. So I guess pure DPS won’t help thief there either

When I’m on my ranger: one rapid fire = 21 stacks of vulnerability – no idea whether or not I’m traited for it. I just need to bait for dodges or wait another 8 sec to get that damage in. If not I can use my GS for another 5 stacks of vulnerability = I’m doing 21-25% more damage – that is a lot and that is nothing a thief can do, especially not a backstab thief.
So if you argue that other classes have got different mechanics and one has to count the conditions etc in – then do it – you’ll be surprised to find that dagger mainhand thieves do poison and bleeding. And that all the dangerous boons and conditions you’re talking about are on other classes. You’ll also find that thieves are the only class with no passives (except one in acro) and only a suicidal block if owning HoT. Only damage migation is stealth if traited which is destroyed by reveal traits.
I can’t talk too much about staff as I ditched it pretty soon after trying – but we aren’t talking about staff but backstab.
The point is that skill has been nerfed big time in June and with HoT – and that makes this game rather boring and the longer it stays as it is the more people will cry if it’s finally changed.

ETA: And no – I think most people don’t want the damage of thief increased but the damage of other classes decreased. Backstab has once been the highest single target burst and that was for a reason – which I already explained.

coso.9173:

it looks like most of the people commenting here just are tinking about PVP. not all of us do PVP, remember that.

Not true – I’m a wvw player which is basically pve, ask anet.

But honestly: I can run with my vanilla thief build (DA, CS, T) through the HoT maps, with D/D SB and am fine – I can do whatever I want in PvE and am fine. Doesn’t mean PvE thief couldn’t use a buff as well but every buff thief might get is because these “pvp kittens” who tried to make the class heard for now 7 months. (I hope you get my point).

ETA: Right, I forgot raids – I don’t think more damage is helping in raids, tbh. But I have yet to be in one – so I can’t really judge.

Alright, lets be honest: The “Goals” don’t really sound as if they’ve got an idea what to do – otherwise it already would be more than “goals”.
I would be fine if they said they had these “goals” but that stuff right now is too complex (we know) and that they more or less have to try out buffs and nerfs which they will review 1-2 months from now and then another 1-2 months until the game is roughly balanced again. I’m still pretty sure that they can’t get around another ferocity like patch to reduce the overall damage of everybody – and it would be nice if they had a look at what it does to certain classes this time around (they didn’t with the ferocity patch).