Guild Wars 2

Noctred.6732:

Jason Segel.2908:

Good guardians can survive against anything for a long time. You aren’t a good guardian if you can’t.

Depends on what’s attacking them really – with the current well necro meta, guardians don’t last very long in 2v1’s without giving up neuts. All it really takes is some combination of wells, shatters, bomb/nade spam, and poison fields spammed on point.

If your guardian friends are surviving 3v1’s for “a very long time”, then the other guys are doing something laughably wrong or simply running builds not suitable for bunker busting.

Not all guardians are created equal. Some people find through trial and error amazing builds that have a lot of utility and different skills you can do. Some guardians are bad, some are ok, some are good, some are really good, and a certain few know everything about their class to the point of being able to know exactly when to do “X move” when an enemy does “X move”

Infectious.4836:

20 seconds of almost guaranteed node control is bad.
Also ignoring the fact you use skills (heal/fear mark) pop plague, pop DS, fear, life transfer, drop marks.
It should really be at least a 30-40 second node control depending on skills of the player.

See that right there is the problem with how you view it, you view it from spvp standard of where almost nobody knows you are in plague form blinding them. If the enemy team already controls the point, and someone is using plague form on it, great for you, you can stand far back out of the reach of their plague and freely cast on them while they sit there taking the damage. They might have 45,000 health in plague form, but when they get out of it they will be around 7,000-10000 health because of how it works.

My whole point is that the enemy team most likely won’t all say “lets go stand in his blinding plague” They will sit back and just cast on you while you sit there taking massive amounts of damage, and you are unable to heal/remove conditions, use deathshroud fear or aoe fear or life transfer, and all the other amazing abilities that are better.

It’s badly designed so that only dumb people stand in it and attack you. In free/paid tpvp almost nobody will stand near you when you are in plague, and you just turn yourself into a target that says “everyone hit me, I cannot heal, get retaliation, insert boon here”

Embershard.7294:

you dont have to have plague form ready to use all yur elites. I roll around with my golem up and switch to plague form as soon as i need it. as soon as you switch to the plague the golem dies so you need good timing. In Tpvp i node hold but usually initiate with the golem out so them think im not a plague user.

If plague/lich form is on cooldown you cannot switch your elites around. If golem is summoned and “charge” is not on cooldown you can switch your elite to lich or plague.

Panther Chameleon.8465:

Jason Segel.2908:

blahblahblah

So? Who cares if you think plague sucks? Should we all bust out our pitch forks and march over to Anet? There’s so much wrong with this game, and your crying about plauge form when you have the best pet in the game with perma cripple knock down never on cool down.

40 second cooldown on the knockdown, it only perma cripples of the AI of it decides it wants to attack or stand around

Just because I analyzed data that makes me “crying”, When I go back to work on monday for my job as a “Planning/Data Analyst” I will let my co-workers know all we do is cry when we analyze…. Smacks of the head were heard around the world about how stupid you are….

Zzod.5791:

Jason Segel.2908:

Zzod.5791:

Jason Segel.2908:

Zzod.5791:

It is quite strong in holding a node neutral as as zerg chain of bunker characters stream back in as PZ likes to do, while they tirelessly research new exploits.

It can be yes. But why are just you holding the node? I play with a few good bunkers who usually only die when its a 4 on 1 or a really long 3 vs 1. So I am a little worried you don’t know what it’s like to have a good bunker on your team and you don’t have to worry about being the tank or holding the point.

Actually, I play bunker for my team, so I know what I am talking about. Are you really a little worried?

What do you even mean “just holding the node”? You make that sound as if its a failure when you are faced with a 2 on 1 situation? As opposed to what? Prolonging your team’s control of a node or maintaining a neutral are a success in itself.

Plague form, with its stability and ability to significantly inhibit close proximity damage, is VERY effective in buying time until teammates can arrive by delaying loss of a node or keeping it neutral. It is very strong at clocktower, waterfall, keep, etc. A necro has the unique ability on a team to have the emergency “bunker” relief via plague form that other damage classes simply do not have access to.

The bunkers you are referring to are an extinct race of bunkers who were able to withstand damage by using mace block bugs, exploiting svanir runes, and having maximized protection uptime. These are no longer a reality. So, let’s be realistic?

???
Soldier runes, and the bunker guardian in my guild can actually live against my full condition necromancer build in a 1 vs 1 for about 5 minutes. I am as high condi damage and power as you can get. Dueled him last night. Not sure what you are talking about.

Not sure what I am talking about? Not sure you know who you are talking to. What team do you play for? I looked at the NA and Euro qualifier points list and your name is nowhere. So, your opinion on the “good bunkers” you play with and the other cool stuff you and your buddies are doing are worth dick to me.

You started this argument by talking about a bunker lasting in a 3 vs 1 and a 4 vs 1 and now its been downgraded to surviving against YOU in a 1 on 1 fight.

Can you stay on topic about plague form? Oh, you can’t. Because you then introduce soldier runes into this topic. Are soldier runes good? Yes. Do they work well with shout based builds? Yes. Do they have anything at all to do with your thread, which was about proving that plague form was weak? Eh..no.

I guarantee you the scenarious you are talking about are not occuring in the paid tournament scene. You are undervaluing maintaining node neutrality and capture. You are introducing side tangents into your argument, which aren’t relevant (comparing a necro bunkering temporarily via plague form vs an actual full-time defined bunker role in a guardian). And you aren’t good either because you can’t kill a guardian in 5 minutes as a condition necro. 8( Sorry bud.

Good guardians can survive against anything for a long time. You aren’t a good guardian if you can’t.

I know my rotations, I don’t play paids yet did a ton of free with an average of 70% win ratio, got a bunch of tourney tickets in the bank. Like I said, soldier runes buddy, guardians use them + shouts = so much condi removal it takes forever to kill with a straight condi build.

I already admitted it would take about 13-14 seconds(not the 10.75 i originally put) worth of attacks to realize the full 3700DPS(because you need to have the average bleed stack of 10-12 before your dps gets that high. Golem DPS + average 10-12 stacks of bleed DPS + poison DPS + Direct damage from attacks + retaliation from using deathshroud reflects back(forgot to mention that) and throw in the random corrupt boon so they get burning applied as well sometimes.

Anyways my point still holds true, 20 seconds of plague form spamming blindness (default applies poison with any attack) = 20 * 231(poison DPS) = 4,620 damage you deal in 20 seconds, which is 231 dps obviously.

Here is what you don’t get.

I can do 6 seconds of blindness = enemies not hitting me.
2 seconds of fear = enemies not hitting me
once they are feared away far enough I cripple AND chill = them probably nothitting me with ana ttack that deals much damage for around 5-9 seconds while I kite them around.
Fear is 20 second cooldown, fear is back, 1 second fear again.

So now they are finally actually up in my face hitting me, problem is they are already at less than half health EASILY, while i still have my heal, plenty of deathshroud to use to absorb hits, so golem knockdown = 3-4 seconds of not being able to do anything(its aoe 400 radious over a linear line of 1500ish range)

So now they can actually legit fight me, but wait, I have permanent retaliation, I have 12 seconds of protection I throw up now, and they have permanent fumble on them(all non critical hits are reduced by 50% damage).

So in the end, regardless of me being off by 3 to 4 seconds to realize the full DPS potential, I am still quite correct. Thanks for noticing I was off by a few seconds.

barti.7685:

im probably a bed necro but here goes,

plagueform in its current state is prob one of the strongest bunker elite there is. i mean double the hp increased toughness and vit pretty sure it gives near immunity to crits… or maybe people crit and the toughness boost is so high you wont even notice anymore or maybe its just the blindness spam that makes you mis s anything directed at the green mist.. and a game often exceeds the 5 min mark making it probably be usuable more then once.. more often the case twice and in rare cases 3 times..

i dont know or you ever fought the green cloud yourself but i’ve played necros a lot(1000+ games) and i played against necros a lot and the green cloud.. is pretty much gg for the comming 20 seconds even with 4 people beating on it.. who cares about the dps plague form is often picked by condition mancers. in a game that is still all about bunkering. you think the other 2 elites are better nobody is stopping you to not pick one of those.

i can tell you one thing tho going lich makes you an instant target because of the growth you experience and stability sometimes dont function at all in this form so you get tossed around like a ragdoll even in form and its dps aint that hot.. unless you go full berserker or stack blood is power and multiple mights..

and flesh golem can die in aoe in mere seconds and after it uses its charge its gone for 5 sec from the fight.. and its ai is close to that of a muppet so half the time it doesnt attack anything or it attacks the completely wrong target making is near useless in critical moments.

so none of the other 2 elites does half the job plagueform does as tanking is concerned, and the only game mode we have is conquest wich is all about tanking theres a good reason necros are put on nodes.. and the moment you see one on a node you just know 99% sure the necro has plagueform.

you cant be near invulnerable and be able to do super dps as any class that will seriously break balance wich is already near the point of broken anyways but thats another story all together.

I am not sure what confuses you. Plague form has an up time of 20 seconds every 180 seconds. Well of darkness + Deathly Swarm has an up time of 25 seconds every 180 seconds. You rely too much on a 3 minute cooldown with plague form and overall you get less blinding, whereas I rely on smaller cooldowns with overall more blinding, well of darkness also gives 3 seconds of protection, chills enemies, and randomly hits for 21 damage per pulse.

You need to factor in all of the other things you could be doing, you cannot just say 20 seconds of blindness is “tank”. You are not thinking of the whole picture, Necromancer has Enfeeble blood, thats THE MOST POWERFUL move if you want to tank(cant cast that while in plague form) coupled with protection and retaliation and you are blinding them? How is it better to only blind in plagueform, when you could blind, have retaliation, protection, healing, condi removal, deathshroud for absorbing hits, fears, regen etc…

When in plague form you cannot heal, cannot remove conditions, cannot deathshroud for retaliation and 50% damage reduction on all enemies AOE attack called Enfeeble Blood(you trait for this), cannot apply chill, the bleeds/poison you apply is weaker than all of the bleeds/poisons you could normally be casting, you cannot cast your 2 fears, cannot have your golem knockdown all enemies within a 1200 range with a radius of 400 in a straight line knockdown path etc…

Please think next time before you post.

xiv.7136:

Panther Chameleon.8465:

So, a 40k hp bonus while perma blinding and crippling a team is bad. Got it.

My elite skill gives me might and fury for 30 seconds.

Yeah, it is that awesome!!!!!

Would I trade it for 20 seconds of tanking with blind and cripple spam?

Hell yes.

It’s one or the other, you can’t blind and cripple at the same time. The trait “when you blind targets you also chill them” does not work for some reason. And each cast takes a second in plague form, blindness lasts for 1 second. Sorry bro.

Infectious.4836:

20 seconds of almost guaranteed node control is bad.
Also ignoring the fact you use skills (heal/fear mark) pop plague, pop DS, fear, life transfer, drop marks.
It should really be at least a 30-40 second node control depending on skills of the player.

??

You should never need to hold a node for 30-40 seconds if you are a necromancer, that isn’t our thing(even though you can be a bunker necro). That’s why bunker ele/engi/guardians are for because of the multiple knockbacks to kick people off the point. Necro has 2 fears of 1 second. 1 knockback that also knocks down is 4 seconds. See why you as a necro should not be holding a point?

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

Lmfao.
This guy Segel is among the most kitten people I’ve ever seen post.
Please people, for your own good, disregard anything posted by him.
Actually, go ahead and use his data, but please don’t follow his conclusions.

The data only leads to one conclusion…. Make your own excel sheet and see for yourself.

delirious.3482:

Plague form is an “Oh crap I have 3+ people chasing me and my team disappeared” button in sPVP. Pretty funny actually watching them all beat on you mindlessly for 20sec while you run to find your team.
In tPVP I could give or take it over the Golem. He is just so handicapable it is depressing.

Honestly if golem attacked like all other pets do it would be so much better. But golem does fight most of the time for me.

Zzod.5791:

Jason Segel.2908:

Zzod.5791:

It is quite strong in holding a node neutral as as zerg chain of bunker characters stream back in as PZ likes to do, while they tirelessly research new exploits.

It can be yes. But why are just you holding the node? I play with a few good bunkers who usually only die when its a 4 on 1 or a really long 3 vs 1. So I am a little worried you don’t know what it’s like to have a good bunker on your team and you don’t have to worry about being the tank or holding the point.

Actually, I play bunker for my team, so I know what I am talking about. Are you really a little worried?

What do you even mean “just holding the node”? You make that sound as if its a failure when you are faced with a 2 on 1 situation? As opposed to what? Prolonging your team’s control of a node or maintaining a neutral are a success in itself.

Plague form, with its stability and ability to significantly inhibit close proximity damage, is VERY effective in buying time until teammates can arrive by delaying loss of a node or keeping it neutral. It is very strong at clocktower, waterfall, keep, etc. A necro has the unique ability on a team to have the emergency “bunker” relief via plague form that other damage classes simply do not have access to.

The bunkers you are referring to are an extinct race of bunkers who were able to withstand damage by using mace block bugs, exploiting svanir runes, and having maximized protection uptime. These are no longer a reality. So, let’s be realistic?

???
Soldier runes, and the bunker guardian in my guild can actually live against my full condition necromancer build in a 1 vs 1 for about 5 minutes. I am as high condi damage and power as you can get. Dueled him last night. Not sure what you are talking about.

Syeria.4812:

Jason Segel.2908:

Syeria.4812:

Jason Segel.2908:

Deathly Swarm and Well of Darkness blind better over a 180 second period than plague form does. I showed the math. I said over 180 seconds which is the cooldown on the plague form. in the 20 seconds u were wasting time in plague form dealing 231 DPS with poison = 4,620 total damage. you could have done 37,000 without using plague form.

its up to you. blow an elite cooldown and wait for ur 20 seconds of blindness to be reuseable every 180 seconds. or have well of darkness + deathly swarm blind for 25 seconds out of every 180 seconds while dealing 37,000 damage.

makes no sense.

I’m not a necro, but you keep comparing 20 seconds of plague form to 180 seconds of well of darkness and deathly swarm. What you should be comparing is 20 seconds of plague form + 160 seconds of well of darkness and deathly swarm to 180 seconds of well of darkness and deathly swarm (less any time using whichever elite you took in place of plague form).

Just because you took Plague doesn’t suddenly make those skills stop working when Plague’s on cooldown.

the whole point is that you can acheive the same outcome of surviving with blinds over a 180 second period(and not have to wait on a 3 minute cooldown next time u need blinds) and deal over 37,000 damage over a 20 second period. Compared to plague forms 20 seconds of blind and only dealing around 4,700 damage.

u shouldnt be fighting more than 1 or 2 people anyways and should be working as a team, thus u want the 37,000 damage output over> plague form 4700 damage over same time period.

u cant always use plague form, u can almost always use deathly swarm and well of darkness usually comes back a few times during a heated team battle(while also giving your team 3 seconds of protection each time u cast)

But you’re not making a reasonable comparison on what’s gained/lost by taking plague on your skillbar except for the 1135 damage you list from golem. Furthermore, looking at your table closer, it’s incredibly inaccurate because you ignore cooldowns, aftercast delay, and any possible moments where attacks are not being made. You’re not losing out on this 37k damage you claim because that would only be the case if you completely ignored cooldowns and the other things mentioned. Just envelope mathing your sheet and approximate cooldowns, you’re really looking at something around 25k damage over that 20 seconds of Plague form, which is only a difference of 20k damage (calculated pre-armor reduction for armor affected damage).

Actually isn’t that far off. I said double what my table said(as my table used only a 10.75 benchmark), that part was inaccurate. My table assumes only one of each ability was cast if you look closely, the benchmark is 10.75 seconds(time taken to cast each of the abilities listed one time).

You are right in saying the 37,000 damage won’t literally happen until about 12 to 13 seconds in because you need time to build up your bleeds. But this 25k-20k thing you said is completely off.

So I admit my number was off because you need to let the bleeds tick but at that 12 to 13 second, point the bleeds on them are steady and will deal 3700 ish DPS as long as you keep the bleeds and direct damage up + poison and golem hitting(assuming golem is still alive, if not easy 2000-2600 dps remains) Compared to 231 poison ticks from plague every second still = 231 DPS.

In the long run you are relying on a 3 minute cooldown. I don’t like doing that because you might need it sooner and you won’t have it. Thus why I use Well of Darkness(48 second cooldown) and Deathly Swarm(18second cooldown).

You are completely forgeting I will be giving myself protection, cripping them, chilling them, 2 fears, golem knockdown, and permanent 50% fumble(all non-critical hits are reduced by 50% damage) You can’t just use a simple I am in plague form and therefore it must be amazing comparison. You need to take into account all of the factors and you simply are not and refuse to. Make your own excel sheet and prove yourself wrong then and upload the picture

Zzod.5791:

It is quite strong in holding a node neutral as as zerg chain of bunker characters stream back in as PZ likes to do, while they tirelessly research new exploits.

It can be yes. But why are just you holding the node? I play with a few good bunkers who usually only die when its a 4 on 1 or a really long 3 vs 1. So I am a little worried you don’t know what it’s like to have a good bunker on your team and you don’t have to worry about being the tank or holding the point.

garethh.3518:

Jason Segel.2908:

use your other abilities which are actually better and deal 15 times as much damage.

Wow, that makes so much sense… until you remember about the whole CD deal, and how plague form gives you a bunch of life and you can move around while in it…

Panther Chameleon.8465:

So, a 40k hp bonus while perma blinding and crippling a team is bad. Got it.

yeeup, aoe moving pulsing blind…

You get life and go from being able to deal 3.7k ish damage when enemies have full conditions on them, to dealing 231 DPS. So while you are sitting there letting an enemy have his way with you(most enemy attacks are faster than one second so you are infact getting hit and guess what? you cant heal or remove conditions cuz ur in plague form) So enjoy taking more damage. Most people don’t stand in the plague blinds and simple far range you.

garethh.3518:

Jason Segel.2908:

Panther Chameleon.8465:

So, a 40k hp bonus while perma blinding and crippling a team is bad. Got it.

You can already perma chill and cripple with grasping hands, chill blains, and switching weapons. plague form = 20 pulses of blindness every 180 seconds.

deathly swarm + well of darkness = 25 pulses of blindness every 180 seconds.
having 40k hp doesnt matter because u cant heal while you are in it

hahahah…
You are portraying yourself as probably the worst person ever to look into balance.
If all you see are raw blinds/180s against target golems, oh and “gaining 15~k life but can’t click your heal skill” as a net loss…
Just stop before you people start yelling at you.

I’m not saying its a great skill, I honestly am not sure if it is a lil OP or UP… just your way of portraying numbers… is very… political, I’ll leave it at that.

Jason Segel.2908:

You are taking a huge 3 minute cooldown to deal 4700 damage and survive. i am dealing 37000+ damage and most of it is aoe direct damage + condi damage over a 20 second period. yes u only can get 6 pulses of blindness right away. but the whole point is to utilize the 6 pulses to deal all of your best moves while they are blinded. thus causing you to still be at full health while you already dealt them over 9k damage.

Why not both?
I’m not surprised, strictly offensively in certain situations, that multiple? utilities and a few high dmg attacks are better than an elite.
Go talk to any warrior.

You can use plague also. Personally I prefer to have golem because Lich is not viable for a max condi build because of my low power. So I won’t use plague because I can survive better and dealmore damage without it, at least the way my spec is, your spec might need it.

Lumines.3916:

You’re comparing to using a bunch of skills to just one plague, no kitten you grabbed skewed results. What are you doing after plague finishes, standing there and scratching your nuts?

What if my Necro has Well of Darkness, off-hand dagger AND plague? I’d have way higher uptime on blinds than you. When your 20s rotation is done, I’d still have most of my cool downs up while yours are all burned if I pop plague first in this vacuum time line you created.

You also can’t really put into numbers how valuable stability is. Yes you can’t cancel it to res/stomp people but having it on Plague which is a great defensive CD means you just in general a bigger annoyance that is harder to stop in team fights.

Plague also is a perma poison in that AoE for 20s, so not only are they greatly reduced in damage output when you act as divine wrath for the old testament, you’re also reducing their heals.

The poison dps is 231. Not being in plague form and using all of thise aiblities over a 10.75 second period deals roughly 3k-3.7k DPS. not sure where you are having an issue. stability + 231 DPS > 3.7k DPS in what world?

You rely on a 3 minute cooldown that will 88% of the time not be available. Where as I rely on a proper rotation, keeping enemies at bay is really easy when you keep crippling/chilling them. Your dagger off hand blindness easily comes back in 18 seconds, and you can get off a well of darkness 2 times before you beat someone in a fight, although most people don’t trait for condi removal so I have a real easy time destroying them with 15+ bleeds.

thejoshknight.4697:

Jason Segel.2908:

thejoshknight.4697:

Wow, egotistic much? “Bad necro’s commence to lecture me!” You had a good post up until that point, seeing as you stated your opinion and backed it up with hard numbers.

However, I use plague form for a few reason. Firstly, doubling the already high health pool of the necromancer is a nice buffer when I get caught on a point against 2 or more players. This health, combined with the blind spam that you can get from plague form makes it a valuable tool when you need to hold out until support arrives.

In regards to your numbers, I don’t think any necromancer has ever claimed that plague form is better in regards to damage than not being in plague form… Secondly, when you take into account the amount of blinds you counted, deathly swarm applies to the next attack, so the duration of the blind is not as applicable as how often that blind can be APPLIED, because most classes attack more than once every 3 seconds. Next you have well of darkness, which I believe lasts 5 seconds and ticks once a second, applying a total of 5 blinds in 5 seconds. This is actually an efficient blinding tool, but at most, you’re getting a combined 6 blinds out of these two skills. Where you run into issues is that most classes attack at least once every second, meaning you’ll get at most 6 seconds of blind. Then taking into account that plague form is used as more of a defensive rather than offensive tool, and that you get around 20 blinds in 20 seconds when you need it, plus a doubled health pool, you can reach the conclusion that plague form is not, in fact, useless, but serves a respectable purpose in tpvp.

thejoshknight.4697:

Wow, egotistic much? “Bad necro’s commence to lecture me!” You had a good post up until that point, seeing as you stated your opinion and backed it up with hard numbers.

However, I use plague form for a few reason. Firstly, doubling the already high health pool of the necromancer is a nice buffer when I get caught on a point against 2 or more players. This health, combined with the blind spam that you can get from plague form makes it a valuable tool when you need to hold out until support arrives.

In regards to your numbers, I don’t think any necromancer has ever claimed that plague form is better in regards to damage than not being in plague form… Secondly, when you take into account the amount of blinds you counted, deathly swarm applies to the next attack, so the duration of the blind is not as applicable as how often that blind can be APPLIED, because most classes attack more than once every 3 seconds. Next you have well of darkness, which I believe lasts 5 seconds and ticks once a second, applying a total of 5 blinds in 5 seconds. This is actually an efficient blinding tool, but at most, you’re getting a combined 6 blinds out of these two skills. Where you run into issues is that most classes attack at least once every second, meaning you’ll get at most 6 seconds of blind. Then taking into account that plague form is used as more of a defensive rather than offensive tool, and that you get around 20 blinds in 20 seconds when you need it, plus a doubled health pool, you can reach the conclusion that plague form is not, in fact, useless, but serves a respectable purpose in tpvp.

Deathly Swarm and Well of Darkness blind better over a 180 second period than plague form does. I showed the math. I said over 180 seconds which is the cooldown on the plague form. in the 20 seconds u were wasting time in plague form dealing 231 DPS with poison = 4,620 total damage. you could have done 37,000 without using plague form.

its up to you. blow an elite cooldown and wait for ur 20 seconds of blindness to be reuseable every 180 seconds. or have well of darkness + deathly swarm blind for 25 seconds out of every 180 seconds while dealing 37,000 damage.

makes no sense.

You disregard my entire point, I never refuted your point that over a period of time it wasn’t better to use well of darkness and deathly swarm (btw, not everyone uses well of darkness, I prefer a corruption build…), I stated that plague form serves it function well as a emergency button when needed, which it does. A doubled health pool and 20 seconds of reduction is a very nice elite in my opinion, but to each their own.

You are taking a huge 3 minute cooldown to deal 4700 damage and survive. i am dealing 37000+ damage and most of it is aoe direct damage + condi damage over a 20 second period. yes u only can get 6 pulses of blindness right away. but the whole point is to utilize the 6 pulses to deal all of your best moves while they are blinded. thus causing you to still be at full health while you already dealt them over 9k damage.

Syeria.4812:

Jason Segel.2908:

Deathly Swarm and Well of Darkness blind better over a 180 second period than plague form does. I showed the math. I said over 180 seconds which is the cooldown on the plague form. in the 20 seconds u were wasting time in plague form dealing 231 DPS with poison = 4,620 total damage. you could have done 37,000 without using plague form.

its up to you. blow an elite cooldown and wait for ur 20 seconds of blindness to be reuseable every 180 seconds. or have well of darkness + deathly swarm blind for 25 seconds out of every 180 seconds while dealing 37,000 damage.

makes no sense.

I’m not a necro, but you keep comparing 20 seconds of plague form to 180 seconds of well of darkness and deathly swarm. What you should be comparing is 20 seconds of plague form + 160 seconds of well of darkness and deathly swarm to 180 seconds of well of darkness and deathly swarm (less any time using whichever elite you took in place of plague form).

Just because you took Plague doesn’t suddenly make those skills stop working when Plague’s on cooldown.

the whole point is that you can acheive the same outcome of surviving with blinds over a 180 second period(and not have to wait on a 3 minute cooldown next time u need blinds) and deal over 37,000 damage over a 20 second period. Compared to plague forms 20 seconds of blind and only dealing around 4,700 damage.

u shouldnt be fighting more than 1 or 2 people anyways and should be working as a team, thus u want the 37,000 damage output over> plague form 4700 damage over same time period.

u cant always use plague form, u can almost always use deathly swarm and well of darkness usually comes back a few times during a heated team battle(while also giving your team 3 seconds of protection each time u cast)

Panther Chameleon.8465:

So, a 40k hp bonus while perma blinding and crippling a team is bad. Got it.

You can already perma chill and cripple with grasping hands, chill blains, and switching weapons. plague form = 20 pulses of blindness every 180 seconds.

deathly swarm + well of darkness = 25 pulses of blindness every 180 seconds.
having 40k hp doesnt matter because u cant heal while you are in it, you cant remove conditions from urself, you cant get your regen, cant use deathshroud to absorb hits when you need to or gain life force. you are bad if you think plague form is better.

40k hp is legit the only benefit for using it. the blindness it provides isnt as good over a 180 second period as deathly swarm + well of darkness. not to mention you cant fear aoe enemies away, or single target fear. the Plague form DPS = 231, not using plague form DPS = 3788.

GOT IT??

thejoshknight.4697:

Wow, egotistic much? “Bad necro’s commence to lecture me!” You had a good post up until that point, seeing as you stated your opinion and backed it up with hard numbers.

However, I use plague form for a few reason. Firstly, doubling the already high health pool of the necromancer is a nice buffer when I get caught on a point against 2 or more players. This health, combined with the blind spam that you can get from plague form makes it a valuable tool when you need to hold out until support arrives.

In regards to your numbers, I don’t think any necromancer has ever claimed that plague form is better in regards to damage than not being in plague form… Secondly, when you take into account the amount of blinds you counted, deathly swarm applies to the next attack, so the duration of the blind is not as applicable as how often that blind can be APPLIED, because most classes attack more than once every 3 seconds. Next you have well of darkness, which I believe lasts 5 seconds and ticks once a second, applying a total of 5 blinds in 5 seconds. This is actually an efficient blinding tool, but at most, you’re getting a combined 6 blinds out of these two skills. Where you run into issues is that most classes attack at least once every second, meaning you’ll get at most 6 seconds of blind. Then taking into account that plague form is used as more of a defensive rather than offensive tool, and that you get around 20 blinds in 20 seconds when you need it, plus a doubled health pool, you can reach the conclusion that plague form is not, in fact, useless, but serves a respectable purpose in tpvp.

thejoshknight.4697:

Wow, egotistic much? “Bad necro’s commence to lecture me!” You had a good post up until that point, seeing as you stated your opinion and backed it up with hard numbers.

However, I use plague form for a few reason. Firstly, doubling the already high health pool of the necromancer is a nice buffer when I get caught on a point against 2 or more players. This health, combined with the blind spam that you can get from plague form makes it a valuable tool when you need to hold out until support arrives.

In regards to your numbers, I don’t think any necromancer has ever claimed that plague form is better in regards to damage than not being in plague form… Secondly, when you take into account the amount of blinds you counted, deathly swarm applies to the next attack, so the duration of the blind is not as applicable as how often that blind can be APPLIED, because most classes attack more than once every 3 seconds. Next you have well of darkness, which I believe lasts 5 seconds and ticks once a second, applying a total of 5 blinds in 5 seconds. This is actually an efficient blinding tool, but at most, you’re getting a combined 6 blinds out of these two skills. Where you run into issues is that most classes attack at least once every second, meaning you’ll get at most 6 seconds of blind. Then taking into account that plague form is used as more of a defensive rather than offensive tool, and that you get around 20 blinds in 20 seconds when you need it, plus a doubled health pool, you can reach the conclusion that plague form is not, in fact, useless, but serves a respectable purpose in tpvp.

Deathly Swarm and Well of Darkness blind better over a 180 second period than plague form does. I showed the math. I said over 180 seconds which is the cooldown on the plague form. in the 20 seconds u were wasting time in plague form dealing 231 DPS with poison = 4,620 total damage. you could have done 37,000 without using plague form.

its up to you. blow an elite cooldown and wait for ur 20 seconds of blindness to be reuseable every 180 seconds. or have well of darkness + deathly swarm blind for 25 seconds out of every 180 seconds while dealing 37,000 damage.

makes no sense.

No further proof is needed beyond this.

Further explanation into this math. I only spent a total of 10.75 seconds to cast all of the things listed as you can see(the full potential of getting the 3700ish dps is realized about 13-14 seconds into the fight since all of your bleed stacks are now ticking). So basically multiply by 1.75 the end result of total damage to get the real total damage result. Vastly superior to plague form

You will notice it says not using plague form 25/180 blindness vs plague form 20/180 blindness.

Plague form blindness pulses for 20 seconds at a rate of 1 pulse per second causing 1 second of blindness and cooldown is 180 seconds.
Total cooldown over 180 seconds of time on Dagger offhand slot 4(deathly swarm) + well of darkness cooldown shows you can easily get 25 seconds of blindness on an enemy(or rather 25 pulses each lasting for 3 seconds which just counts for next attack) out of 180 seconds. Making it the clear winner. So Do not use plague form right away if you are trying to hold a point, use the above and all skill rotations instead, then if you really need to use plague form to survive(which is only for a ton of people hitting you, or you are bad(most necros are bad)) then use it.

Therefore plague form loses in EVERY category as regards to using for blindness, poison, bleeding, DPS, boons, and conditions.

Therefore it is almost NEVER to be used for anything other than holding a point in a 1 vs 1 because u dont know how to use your other abilities WHICH are actually better and deal 15 times as much damage.

Bad necro’s commence to lecture me!(I see a lot have, and others who have no idea how to play a necro have also, very funny)

SuperSpicyCurry.2415:

Is the glitch with warriors staying alive after using Vengeance still an issue? Because that was annoying.
Edit: Nvm didn’t know they had a trait for rallying when they get a kill using vengeance

That is intended but I am not sure if they intended it to work for killing pets/minions. I believe that might have been an oversight on their part, because any warrior can easily kill a minion/pet within the 10 second ish time limit.

Chakuna.6325:

If he dealt damage to one of your team-mates in that life, he’ll rally when that team-mate dies?

Working as intended, deal with it.

I do not believe for a second Arena Net intends for a rally of 5,000+ range away when one of my allies dies. I never saw it work this way from so far away until last patch… I was pretty sure it had a range on it as I sometimes do not get rallied because I was too far away.

Derps.7421:

People still do Tourneys?

On anvil rock and whatever servers can access our mists or however that goes theres usually 100+ ppl standing around and even more queueing or already in tournies. ya

I wasn’t aware you added the ability for mist form to let the elementalist come up from being downed to full health? This happened in a 1 vs 1 on a point and he killed me because of it. I downed him and had like 13k health, he was DOWN. I was stomping him and he mist formed and all of a sudden was on his feet dodging around and attacked me and killed me…

A thief did this to me 3 times during an spvp match as well. Nobody else around, he went from down state and me in mid stomp, to him standing up, and then killing me… This just happened at 10:07 PM EST.

Please fix ASAP this will break tournaments for sure.

same thing happened to me. disconnected before the last part and couldnt get back on….

Distaste.4801:

Jason Segel.2908:

Jasher.6580:

Jason Segel.2908:

Jasher.6580:

Jason Segel.2908:

BurnedToast.3781:

Blacksarevok.8104:

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

If you’re running utilities in your 7,8,9 slot then you don’t have epidemic. The scepter AOE’s are alright but they are so incredibly easy to avoid and difficult to land. Scepter #1 conditions might kill someone eventually but in the time it takes you to apply 1 set(2 bleed 1 poison) on my thief I’ll have done 3k+ in auto-attack damage myself. I’ll not only have out damaged you(3k vs 2.2k) but I’ll have done it faster(2s vs 7 1/2s). Not only that but again sticking with my thief, any conditions you apply are gone when I hit 75%(trait), then again when I use heal, and if I’m rolling the precision signet that’s another condition gone. Every 45s I can completely remove conditions twice and remove a single condition as well.

Don’t get me wrong, necromancers can do alright, BUT that doesn’t change that condition damage is underpowered compared to direct damage. Condition damage should be doing more overall damage than direct damage because it takes time to do the damage and it can be removed, but it doesn’t. This comes down to crit and crit damage scaling differently. They either need to make condition duration more abundant and remove the cap if there is one or remove crit damage from main gear stats and relegate it to sigils like duration.

Just traiting across the curses line in necro you can give yourself 20% bleeding duration + 33% on all conditions caused by scepter duration.

Using epidemic is basically useless for a team fight build. Slot 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, switch to scepter slot 2 4 5, deahshroud slot 4, is all aoe damage. I am built for tpvp and provide support to the bunker I run in with. Epidemic wouldn’t really add anything because the above already basically means all enemies were hit by my stuff already. It’s better to have 4 wells that give 3 seconds of protection each time, blind enemies for 5 seconds straight pulsing every second, convert all allies conditions into boons, and corrupt enemy boons into conditions(especially when fighting classes that give themselves all boons or 2 to 3 boons that really helps). The combo fields alone are worth it over using blood is power and epidemic because people can get rid of blood is power, so you have a move thats on cooldown for 30 seconds and yeah it helps you but doesnt help your team.

Xom.9264:

Daays.4317:

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

By that logic it takes less skill to survive a thief.

A thief has to use 3 buttons to kill you.
You have to have 1 defensive cooldown.

1 < 3

I like it.

Really, 1 defensive cooldown is all it takes to kill a thief or get away from one? LOL you are the worlds worst gamer if thats all it takes for you to lose on a thief.

In reality 1 defensive cooldown followed by perfect skill rotations of multiple buttons weapons swaps utilities etc… and you might get away from a thief or kill one (perspective of a necro).

If you dont have a defensive cooldown you are dead.

If you are a necro and you have staff and use scepter + dagger off hand and are still losing, you have a major problem buddy. I almost never die to thieves. AOE AOE AOE = win against most thieves. Always AOE with necro. If you wanna deal direct damage with something roll a warrior/thief.

Jasher.6580:

Jason Segel.2908:

Jasher.6580:

Jason Segel.2908:

Jasher.6580:

Jason Segel.2908:

BurnedToast.3781:

Blacksarevok.8104:

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

I’m not a Thief.

Sorry meant to quote sumone else

Jasher.6580:

Jason Segel.2908:

Jasher.6580:

Jason Segel.2908:

BurnedToast.3781:

Blacksarevok.8104:

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

Jasher.6580:

Jason Segel.2908:

BurnedToast.3781:

Blacksarevok.8104:

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

BurnedToast.3781:

Blacksarevok.8104:

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Leiloni.7951:

Well as much as I agree with you it would be fun for it to have unlimited bleed stacks, there’s not much skill involved in that. Just to play devil’s advocate here, they probably do have reasons for it.

In a game that’s supposed to be about skilled combat, DoTs tick automatically – you can be dodging a dungeon boss and still doing damage, or in sPvP with tons of stacks on a guy and just run around healing and avoiding his hits while he dies. Automatic damage doesn’t fit into a game with no healers where everyone is supposed to be able to avoid damage with skillful use of skills and dodges.

As for burning, if they let burning stack in intensity us Ele’s would do way OP damage, and put us in a group and we’d make them do even more way OP damage. I have a fire field that lasts for 4 seconds on a 6 second cooldown – you do the math.

They could easily put in special restrictions on bosses. That’s all I am advocating for. Boss battles can take up to 15 minutes or whatever their timer is, and for the 10 condi specced people there, we don’t want to respec and pay 4 silver everytime and switch to completely different set of armor just to fight a boss…

Why is direct damage allowed to deal 2000-5000 DPS but condi is penalized and is restricted to 700-1400 DPS or whatever. The point is, this makes people who want to play condi builds and like condi builds want to quit the game, or not help fight big bosses. Condi should be the best against bosses because their toughness doesn’t matter as conditions do not get reduced by toughness for how much DPS they do. Therefore it doesn’t make much sense to make conditions have a limit. They can easily make it so you can’t burn for X number of seconds after you apply a burn, or the second stack of burn you applies add in an extra 10% or 20% to the burn already on there. Upping the time limit on burns and poison which ticks for like 200 per second, over a 10 minute fight = 10 * 60 * 200 = 120,000 damage for being poisoned for 10 minutes. If poison stacked it could be easily 500,000 damage instead. See the huge difference?

Why make 10 direct damage do 2000-5000 per person, and 10 condi classes dealing 700-1400 per person?

10 minute fight of 10 direct damage specs = 10 * 10 * 60* 2000 to 5000 = 12,000,000 damage to 30,000,000 damage over 10 minute period.

10 minute fight with condi users being capped at bleeding stacks and all that = 10 * 10 * 60 *700 to 1400 = 4,200,000 to * 8,400,000

Meaning it would take 30 condi users to deal the same amount of damage as 10 direct damger dealers…

How does that make any sense…

tetsuo.7318:

The easyest and fairest solution would be to just give every individual player his own stack of Dots.

That could work as well. Other games do that for certain abilities so there isn’t issues with stacking vulnerability past a certain percentage and limiting of certain heals or special moves. Or it makes it so if you cast invulnerability with a certain move that is spammable, it only helps you deal more damage. Many different ways to tackle the issue and I support people like you who actually think about things, thank you!

mulch.2586:

The moral of the story is good players don’t condition-build.

Was the same way before launch.

Go ahead and make one. Play a Mantra Mesmer. Play a Signet Ranger. For most of the game, you’ll be fine, cuz the game’s just not that dependent on dps. Your choice.

But it’s absurd to complain about your choice. Cuz you’re the one wot made it.

The moral of the story is that Arena Net can make changes so direct damage isn’t the only choice. Has nothing to do with being “good”. You can be the best condi person and know exactly how to max out condi damage and all that, but in a boss fight you’re stuck dealing between 65% to 75% less damage than someone specced for direct damage.

Arena Net made this game, they made the mechanics, they can change the mechanics so they are not alienating people who enjoy playing condition builds vs bosses/champions/dynamic events. Conditions are very helpful when its 5 man parties, why program the game to make us almost useless for 10-50 man groups taking down bosses/champions/whatever huge event monster. I don’t see the point in it, therefore it has to be an oversight in logic on their part.

also

-Soul reaping trait fear of death, which should cause fear on downed does not work. It triggers when you die if at all. and the other one that trists for creating a reaper mark when reviving a downed ally doesnt always work either. and if it does it should be unblockable because i am traited for unblockable marks!

the Downed state fear skill sometimes has full cooldown when you go downed for no reason. It could be related to some skill stealing (if some class has that ability) but I have no idea why someone should have your fear stolen before you even have it.

Shapechanging skills like plague and lich can sometimes get you stuck at your position.

When using Well of Corruption, it says it lasts for 5 seconds, but it definently does not. I watch it tick 6 times, and it only lasts for less time than I can cast 3 Necrotic grasps with my staff. Which means it only lasts for 3 × .75 cast time of necrotic grasp = 2.25-2.5 seconds, yet it ticks 6 times and I tested this out multiple times. Duration should be 5 seconds and I should be able to cast more than 3 necrotic grasps while it is u. I should be able to cast 5 seconds / .75 = 6.6 necrotic grasps but I can only cast about 3 and almost never the fourth one.

Golem stands around wayyy to much during the fight, so do other minions, Golem used to aggro a ton now he does not, only does if he gets hit and if they stop hitting him he stops too.

I got hit again today by a warriors blade trail for a 10k hit… went instantly from 26k hp to 16k as a necromancer. You already said if players can replicate this glitch you would hotfix it but you still havent and its very easy to replicate.

Go go the training dummies, line up like 3 or 4 of them, throw blade trail, instant 30,000 damage and training dummies drop dead.

FIX IT.

For sure it will not become an e-sport. What are you even watching? The only classes that can really do anything worth watching is probably a thief extreme dps taking someone down, and possibly watching endless boringness of someone trying to kill a bunker.

You gotta be kidding about an e-sport and arena net is on crack if they think watching someone 1 vs 1 a bunker for 2 minutes makes for good entertainment. Fighting bunker elementalists is the dumbest thing I ever have to do as a necromancer and it takes way to long, if you are straight dps they will rock you, you have to spec tank necro to even fight back. All it will be is whose bunker build counters the others bunker build and be constant 2-3 minute 1 vs 1s on side objectives and you won’t be able to tell what is happening almost at all in the 3 vs 4 or 3 vs 3 for mid point. And don’t even get me started if people are employing reviving signets, elite skills that revive + give full health and all that other bs. Those types of skills shouldn’t even exist at all, it prolongs fights for no reason.

Daays.4317:

@Jason

Once again, this isn’t about damage. The only time you’d be fighting a guardian 1v1 is at the beginning of FoN and in BoK.

Necros have no knockbacks and your fear is counterd by stability. You’re going to be knocked off the point constantly in those two maps due to necros having no access to stability.

You’re not going to kill the guardian in time before help arrives. And if help arrives for both you and him at the same time, he can simply hallowed ground and book heal his team back to full.

Then consider in team fights your team is going to be hard pressed to get stomps off from the lack of group stability. If your teammates go down, the lack of group stability makes res’ing them in time that much harder.

Case of good on paper. Bad in game.

Vorpal.4683:

Bunkers are not the problem. Players who want to run around in glass cannon mode and never have to adopt tactics are the problems.

There are many classes that can wreak havoc with bunker builds (necro being the most easily learned). So then you have roamers, damage, bunkers, and anti-bunkers.

That sounds way more fun than 5 thieves running around in full glass cannon mode which is what the game would come down to with no bunkers.

You honestly think a team of 5 thieves with no stability would win any fight? It doesn’t matter if they all focus fire one guy, then another, then another. It’s not enough to stop the res’ing before they all die from AoE damage and retal.

If you honestly believe that defensive and slow game play should be more rewarding than fast and offensive game play, I invite you to review the 3x healer games @ Blizzcon. Can enjoy 45mins+ each game of no one dying and people just running around in circles.

It’s great that you tell me its great on paper and not in game when I am rank 21 in spvp and having played 93% of the games on my necro…. which is over 70 hours of learning everything about what my class does….

k thx bai. keep being a baddie and necros have stability for 3 seconds every 10 seconds + elite skill is 30 seconds of stability. I dont need to stand on the point to fight him… I stand off the point because me being on it he will just knock me off. I DPS the hell out of him while he stands there looking at me wondering what he can do. If he has a ranged attack it’s not going to do anything to me as i can regen/protection/retaliation/fumble through it and basically never take any damage. I regularly beat guardians and I have full health when I am done and my heal is back + all wells. If he wants to stand on the point he can eat my 4 wells I throw down on him + 4 marks, + golem hitting for 770-1500+ DPS, endless bleeding with my sceptor default attack and blood is power = 12,000 bleed over 42 seconds and ticks for around 280 per second.

You are kind of right in it being hard for me to just hold onto a point by myself, but it’s not really that big of an issue because you do 2 2 on points and 1 roaming. so your arguement doesn’t really hold up.

Shafi.8952:

(This is not a joke) : Ignore this thread if you think your playing the necrominion master as design intended.

I finally understand what I have been doing wrong for the past 2 months.
Now I know how to keeps minions alive for 2 times, maybe 3 or 4 times, longer (except for jagged horror).

Wrong: Minions siphon health for you.
Right: You heal minions with Mark of Blood, Reaper’s Touch, Well of Blood and others

Wrong: Minions draw your conditions.
Right: You get rid of conditions on minions with Putrid Mark and others.

Wrong: Ranged – mobs will attack your minions before you.
Right: Melee – make sure monsters attack you

Wrong: Necromancers – DPS (with little heal) | Minions – Tank
Right: Necromancers – Tanky Healer (with little DPS) | Minions – Not Tank, Not Healer, Not DPS (Remember GW2 gets rid of holy trinity: At least for minions)

Wrong: Minions are minions of Necromancers | Necromancers are master of minions.
Right: Minions are master of Necromancers | Necromancers are minions of Minions.

Now with all this in mind, Go out there minions and make a build built around Toughness, Vitality and Healing Power.

I hereby name this new type of build: Master Minion <- nice and simple, easy to remember.

Just remember, you keep your master alive and your master don’t keep you alive; If you remember this, your master will die after you die and not before.

Hint To other Necromancers: make a hybrid of Minion Master and Master Minion for an almost enjoyable Necro play-style.

To ArenaNet: Please don’t nerf this build, I finally found it after 2 months of experimenting with different ideas for Minions, I mean Masters.

(Feel free to take this thread as a joke)

I am sorry to say this, but using just the flesh golem, and using wells for slot 6 7 8 9, staff aoe is 2 3 4 5, and speccing for full power, precision, and condition damage greatly out performs wasting minions for pve. Wells hit aoe and it says they only pulse each second for 5 seconds. they actually pulse 6 times while one of them pulses 7. you can see it happen by checking your combat log and fighting one enemy and counting.

just using a dagger specced like the above deals between 4k-6k dps on an enemy, especially if using blood is power which gives 10 stacks of might, 350 to power and 350 to condition damage. im sorry but in pve even specced as a full glass cannon with no toughness, and ur fighting 5 + enemies, its really hard to die as a necro.

speccing for toughness and having minions which only hit one target fight for you, is legit dividing your total DPS by at least 3 or 4. as the build i described i could easily kill 5 enemies in under 10-13 seconds. your build would take so much longer. no point.

the minons do not agro correctly. all other classes pets follow you more than 5,000 range away and continue to try and kill you, while ours run away, stand there, or follow you without helping.

Pet aggro is completely messed up. Golem stand around for 20 seconds at a time before he decides to help me, other minions do the same. this has been happening for 1 week + and it very game breaking to not have my elite skill help me. this happens in wvw, pve, spvp, tpvp, and anywhere.

My minions in Spvp, Tpvp, PVE, and WvW keep standing around while I fight for over 15+ seconds. They usually do not attack until something hits them, flesh golem used to always attack now he stand there during a whole fight… This has been happening for the past 20 hours of my gameplay over the last week or so.

Other minions are just relaxing and watching me fight as well. I make my flesh golem tackle enemies with his special move, he does it, then hes goes right back to standing next to the enemy, or just plain following me. Flesh wurm seems to attack sometimes but not always. Bonefiend and the shadow fiend basically do nothing as well as golem doing nothing.

This is an extreme problem for me in spvp as it makes my elite skill almost useless if it wont fight. I have played like 30 rounds with golem and I didn’t notice it until after like the 15th round that he will not attack unless directly attacked, and sometimes he stops attacking to just follow me again or stand there. As it is turning into a lich is actually bad, because the dps your golem puts out + what you can put out in your regular form is actually more damage, + you have all your heals and everything else still. Using the lich is actually making your self more vulnerable and you deal less DPS, while not being able to heal or death shroud, or cause fear, or deploy wells to give protection. ETC…. Plague form you will see a HUGE reduction to your DPS. in plague form probably the best DPS you can do is with max condition damage which I am, and I can still deal more damage with the staffs aoe + sceptor by at least 3 times the amount of DPS.

Please make my golem attack again, the other two elites are compltely not viable for dealing damage and surviving as it is, now golem is broke, awesome…

People hate whoever is really popular because they get angry at anyone who likes anything that is popular. It’s a huge hypocrisy because most people drink soda and like the big names, like the big names in technology and stuff too. So I am not sure why it comes to music they get all defensive and stupid about it.

And Daskro, This is Presidents Bushes, I beat your ranger with my necro ;p

Gilgamesh. I know bunkers are not about damage. I am saying having a necro built like me legit makes 2 guardians specced with best bunker build vs me completely useless.

I have fought 2 of them in tpvp before and took the point from them. They can’t deal any damage to me when they permanently deal 50% less damage for normal attacks, most guardian bunkers have almost no crit chance.

Then on top of that, I blind them for 5 seconds straight, then group aoe blind once every 15 second ish or 20. My slot 3 cripples them for 5 seconds and gives me retaliation for 3 and 1/2 per person I hit with hit. + 16 seconds of protection from well, deathshroud = another 3.5 seconds of retaliation.

So I have 33% reduce incoming damage (for 16 seconds every 36 seconds), and reflect 33% damage can almost be permanently upheld with my build, while making them permanently have 50% less endurance regen, poison, bleeding, chill, cripple, while my wells siphon health, my mark gives me health regen, my dodge gives me health regen, swapping weapons heals me for about 975 ish every 9 seconds. and I have 2 moves that transfer my conditions back to them which come back pretty fast.

I would argue the guardian bunker is the most worthless thing to hold a point compared to what I can do. Rangers have a better chance beating me than 2 guardian bunkers, which I soloed with ease and took a point. It all depends on who is defending the point. If a thief runs up on me, I know because I have marks all over that warn me when their animations go off is someone is coming at me. Then I wait till they are on top of me, Cast blindness, then cast 5 second blindness well that blinds them every second for 5 seconds. Then AOE fear, then Death shroud fear, Golem knockdown, chill + cripple. That’s an easy 10 seconds of making a thief completely useless. The well I cast = 33% reduce incoming damage, I already used retaliation, so basically the thief kills themselves. It works almost all the time beaucase Death Shroud = instant cast and gives me retaliation.

If any necro dies to a thief it’s because we were worrying about fighting somebody else, and even then we usually can hit F1 really quick. It is funny as hell seeing a thief who would have hit a 18k on me reflect a 6k back on himself.

Warmage Timeraider.5861:

There are 2 kinds of bunkers ..
the normal bunkers, defensive.. high survivability, can survive 1 guy but with 3 guys they mostly die for sure (most of the bunkers and totally not even near overpowered)
then you have the bunkers people should complain.. the ones who can stand still while soaking in the damage of 3 people and still survive (even though fewer exsist then the normal bunkers… they do exsist)

the problem is finding the thing that differs those 2 types.

Bunkers are such a waste, I can easily live longer than them with all of the skills I employ as that build. I haven’t met a guardian yet who can beat me in a 1 vs 1.

This is the weirdest sentence i have seen ever… Bunkers are damage takers.. they knock you off the point and make sure they never die while standing on it.
Ofcourse they cant 1v1 you.. the thing is, you cant 1v1 a nice bunker to.

And if you do…. it aint a nice bunker..

I have an AOE fear the size of the capture point, another fear that comes back every 20 seconds. My well stacks tons of vulnerability on them. Did you even read my origional post?

With this build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAW3YjQaV6Zaia87JAJFPj90jvHX8IFEPMA;TwAgyU7Y2RsjdH3OydWhMC5EyGkXIA

I actually beat two bunkers in spvp and I am a necro.

The main reason is, if you are a bunker and your fighting me I always win. Here is why.

10 seconds of 50% fumble I can cast every 10 seconds, and I can cast it again with another skill every 25 seconds.

Fumble = all noncritical hit damage reducded by 50%.

If you are specced for bunker and are really low crit chance, have fun having permenent 50% damage reduction, then I cast my wells and gain 16 seconds of 33% protection, not to mention I can get around 9 seconds of retaliation, all at the same time about.

Necro > any guardian

I copied and pasted that for you incase you somehow missed it. Sigh.

Pimpslapper.2047:

Put a 2 second cooldown on it please, and/or double the initiative you need to use it.

This should not be spammable. If it really is a finisher, it needn’t be spammed relentlessly.

I personally like fighting thieves. 1 2 or 3 at a time. I don’t care at all.

I give them 50% fumble for 20 seconds, I get 12 seconds of retaliation, while my wells heal me and blind them, and oh wait, 16 seconds of 33% protection.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAW3YjQaV6Zaia87JAJFPj90jvHX8IFEPMA;TwAgyU7Y2RsjdH3OydWhMC5EyGkXIA

Roll a necro.

I copied and pasted link and it works… hmm…