Showing Posts For John Lucier.5486:
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holy cow, the grind for this new gear makes asian MMos look high-speed, maybe they are trying to copy WoW and Lineage 2
Im probably gonna reroll to NotGonnaLogin class because of the ascended gear, not even any of the balance changes. I came here to play GUILD WARS, not WORLD OF GUILD WARCRAFT. Funny thing is, I am pretty sure you can dig up at least 2 official A-net representative statements and marketing spots specifically stating this game was not going to be about gear, a gear grind or like WoW. Perhaps A-net should look up this really special legal term that has just been invented itis called “False Advertising”, usually doesn’t end well for the advertiser.
Just boycott all gem buying and trading, their stock has already went down, if you hold the boycott till ascended is removed or made to not work in wvww, they will have some BIG explaining to do to the executives+Share holders why profit is down so much
Shadow Refuge – 10/10 (after fix, best utility overall for thief and the only thief ability that can affect more than 5 allies)
Nope.
No AoE skill affects more than 5 people.
Dagger storm does
I think there are also cases where you can be immobilized and tap withdraw/roll for init and it will never trigger, which is supposed to break immob
Hey thanks! My guild [TAC] Tactical Terror kick it every night in WvW on Eredon. We still have fun, play with strategy, never a dull moment. No matter what, we still playing WvW, helping to bring the server back.
We were talking about the All thief guild called “The Assassination Clan”? I think, which is also [TAC] on Ehmry bay
You’re right ryston,
just because something has a counter doesn’t make it balanced. And that’s why the build is getting a nerf.
That said, considering the amount of QQ you read on these boards about Backstab, only one in maybe 20 Thieves I come across actually played an all-out glass cannon Backstabber. The Bleed builds seem to be far more popular.
Bleed builds are becoming more popular because of the dev post saying there was going to be a nerf to backstab, at least thats my understanding of it. With the current reputation of changes it looks like they will probably move thief to a burstless class entirely based on DPM and not DPS. It also just so happens that with gearing and benefitting traits, the condition thieves are the tankiest, and have to be since all they got is bleeding which can be cleansed way too easily.
Would be a sick and lore fitting ability for thief to have something that allowed them to climb walls, but without a hefty cooldown or very specific circumstances it could be overpowered
I don’t really care if I was at 100% or 5%, as I said, a spammable, low cost, gap closing hit should never hit that hard ever, for any reason. Backstab should hit very hard, and nothing else. Your goal with Heartseeker is to hit with a decent hit, something about double auto attack. I mean what else hits that hard with D/D? LDB does crap damage but bleeds, Dancing Dagger is low damage but cripples, CnD can hit pretty hard, usually 4~6k depending on the critical hit.
But Heartseeker, if it’s going to have all the movement speed it does, the low cost it does, the gap closing usage it does, it should not be hitting harder at any point than a skill such as Backstab which has a stealth requirement, a position requirement AND a Signet requirement to hit somebody for big damage.
That is part of the big problem. It’d be like having a Warrior’s Whirlwind hit you for more damage than 100B when 100B takes a lot more to set up (usually Bull’s Charge+Frenzy+Signet of Rage to maximize it’s damage.
Actually warrior GS whirlwind moves you just as far if not farther AND does more damage, and you get to choose any direction of movement without needing a target/facing.
There was zerging on both sides since saturday, you are only making yourself look bad
It’s because I’m perfectly fine with other servers zerging us =)
Well in that pic, the numbers were pretty equal actually, looking at the minimap, the majority of us is behind you out of the pic.
Equal numbers + siege+ only way to get in are choke points = extreme advantage for defenders.
There was zerging on both sides since saturday, you are only making yourself look bad
1.) I’d expect anyone to accept a heartfelt complement, regardless of which “class” it came from. Hell, if it came from such an “OP class” wouldn’t that mean more?
2.) I’m playing as a high toughness S/D thief, which is completely different than the oft hated FOTM dagger thieves.
3.) Why the hell should I be hated on because I picked a class style I liked weeks before anyone had any idea of the meta-game?
4.) Why the hell should any of this matter when it comes to being decent humans to one another?
I swear, every game is the same these days….
- Try to play other classes and not to hate thieves during the process. For a person who was killed by your kind more than any other combined, your compliment might sounds like mocking.
- Even more reason to hate you – reasonable defense and still crazy damage.
- Why should anyone who were killed 100 times by thieves in unfair fights to consider your feelings?
- Why people hate cheaters, gold sellers, hackers, trolls etc-etc? After all, they’re humans too, sure they have a reason…
Try to understand others before judge them, or don’t judge them.
Please excuse this person above from our server, they are being childish.
Good fights, all around.
@Cufflink
can you give me your guild leaders name? I love battlefield observation and I just want to ask him something that could just be a coincidence
Nah, SM and CoS have been class. Credit where its due.
Have to agree there. Haven’t had much trouble with those thieves, but there’s a few other tags I’ve seen the last few nights who have timed their false retreats+flanks perfectly and gobbled up whole squads. I think group per group that’s probably the biggest threat I’m seeing currently, they simply have good terrain negotiation. Though, I’ve been seeing some crazy stuff from our smaller squads recently full of random regulars and I’m excited to see our plan on the fly rhythm get more solid.
Honestly can say I dont see those tags much really, at least not doing serious contribution to their war effort. Most i see are TAC and FTF
Lots of misinformation
Well no need to draw out any more big replies you keep spouting the same thing, if you don’t know how to read what you wrote, that is your own problem. I also like how you tried to bring bunker ele into this, and how majorly incorrect you are on the poison, when you clearly need 20 points in DA for 100% uptime on an AFK, key word AFK, target.
Good luck with that tho.
blah blah too long
I don’t think I misrepresented anything by taking context out, but just in case I’ve been careful to keep your full argument for this post. All context is intact.
Waiting see any math posted.. still more misinformation.
Poison does not have long duration and will not be kept up perma except for something like shortbow, so big tradeoff. Counting wasting a utility slot and dumping a TON of points into DA and maybe poison duration sigil or runes is not even feasible in the least bit, so bypassing that.
If poison wasn’t meant to be damaging then why does it have a damaging function. Id be willing to keep its current form of being easily cleansed, low to moderate duration, but with zero damage if at least the heal debuff was far more major, at least that way it would have a role. I don’t want to compare apples to oranges, but one of my fav open world pvp games of all time had a debuff on the rogue/assassin archetype that was a 100% healing debuff, that could be cleansed easily, had moderate duration but obviously big gaps in applying which i would prefer. I would also prefer if weapon sets were more streamlined for a given role, so multiple weapon abilities are not useless (also 1-2 attacks that applied burning would be nice) but anyway done with that ramble.
You did flip flop because you made the claim the spamming was overpowered, when it is how the thief was designed, and you specifically targeted the P/D set and sneak attack. But then above, you quoted me and agreed that the other weapon abilities are just extremely unviable for a condition build and the ones spammed are the only ones viable (ergo NOT overpowered).
just because you post a random youtube vid of a thief playing in wvwvw, does not automatically make it yours or that you know how to play thief.
You lost ALL credibility…
No, I didn’t. I made an argument, backed up with reasoning, based on facts. I never say anything that’s factually inaccurate. I also provide a possible fix. I was actively participating in the discussion, and just because you disagree doesn’t mean I lost credibility. What you’re doing here is avoiding the argument by saying that I have nothing of value to contribute.
I made an argument, but then backed it up with reasoning. You follow up your baseless accusation of lost credibility with several poorly-founded statements:
ALL thief attacks that apply bleed are underpowered
That’s a sweeping overstatement, and not adequately backed up with reasoning. I think you could definitely make an argument for some attacks being weak (pistol #1, for example), but the amount of AoE bleeding we can apply with Caltrops, Death Blossom, and Uncatchable is extremely powerful.
poison is also next to worthless.
I think you’re coming from a damage point of view, in which case I agree somewhat. Poison is equivalent to ~2 stacks of bleeding or 25% of the damage of , and given how easy it is to stack bleeding, that’s not very much. However, you’re making a big mistake in overlooking the -33% healing. Any bunker build is depending on high self-healing to keep them up (especially Elementalist), so hitting them with -33% healing is devastating to their defenses. You don’t just use poison for the damage.
Sweeping statements like this are almost never accurate. It’s better to look at specific skills/traits/whatever than to make a broad statement like that.
Also you exaggerate just like all the nerf thief posts, only in a masked version, saying its some super ranged set
I don’t really exaggerate. I had two main points. First off, P/D encourages 1115 spamming because the rest of the skills suck. I don’t think anyone is contesting that.
The second is that the mix of range and stealth could use some investigation in terms of balance. Basically, you can attack from range. The moment your enemy closes into melee, you vanish into stealth (dealing high damage with CnD), open a 900" gap, and hit them with the really powerful Sneak Attack. As soon as they get into melee, you can use CnD again and rinse/repeat. This makes kiting very nearly impossible against a P/D thief, and it also makes the intended counter to stealth (AoE control/damage) far less effective.
Sure, it’s not quite as easy as that sounds, but I still think Oozo raises a valid point (meaning it’s at least worth discussing), and I expanded on it.
TL;DR: It’s amazing what a Norn will go through to avoid their annual bath.
You failed again and still have not regained any credibility because you cut little pieces of my post to twist the context. You did lose all credibility because you posted misinformation, just like the OP, and now you are flip flopping my in the last part by agreeing with me… just laughable.
So let’s reiterate;
Just because 2 attacks are spammed or given the perception of being spammed it does not make them overpowered. They COULD in fact be underpowered and either way none of the other attacks offer ANY benefit to the build. If you actually played thief or made one to try to understand how they work, you wouldn’t be so ignorant. -33% healing is nothing to write home about, it would be different if poison naturally had a 10s+ duration and was harder to remove but its not that way. Also in practice, any DoT that ticks slower is actually going to do even less damage because that is more time in between ticks a condition remover can be used and you cannot stack something like poison, which if changed would actually make it useful (like the damage would tick faster like a bleed but the healing debuff wouldnt say double or anything).
Once you feel like posting actual information with REAL reasoning to back it up (like you claim but fail to do) I will be happy to discuss it further, but if you want you can continue to argue basically that Blue is not a color, when clearly it is.
I bet my money on backstab comkittenf+shortbow nerf, some traits are gonna be reworked (bettered, i believe), gunslinger (p/p) will be buffed, i hope sword gets some love (looking at you flanking strike), prolly some degree of nerfing to the death blossom bleeding (i hope so,its so lame it gives me chills),i expect some more defense OUTSIDE of stealth (protection, stability),and,obviously,i expect a huge QQ 5 minutes after the patch goes live, with ppl complaining the nerf wasnt near enough…
Im smiling already!!
I stopped reading at the Death Blossom part, if you think it is overpowered and not underpowered, you never played DB condition. 3 stacks of bleeding for 5 init? Unfortunately, check. Evade that lasts less then 1/3 the animation, unfortunately, check. Every class having multiple ways to cleanse all stacks with 1 button, check.
Why do people keep saying anyone in here has lost ALL credibility(!!!!1!!111!!!ONE!!!)? It’s an idiotic statement and it should stop.
As for the OP, I love seeing stuff like this. Nicely played. Hopefully more and more people will start posting videos like these so the people who can’t handle us Thieves realize that it really is mostly them, not us, causing the problem ;-)
It isn’t idiotic, however what is idiotic is letting people get away with posting blatantly false information (AKA Misinformation), which is the exact reason why thief is targeted for nerfs in the first place, much less misplaced ones.
But keep thinking that is how things should roll, Ignorance is bliss I guess.
why don’t you take your jokes to necromancer forums ?
cause your forum is clean , and you can actualy have decent discution regarding builds and counters , but no all the trash comes to thief’s forums.
Cause all the QQ’rs come and cry here on thief profesion forums, all the flame.
Did it ever come to your mind that we had enough and we don’t need your jokes ?
Pathetic.I attend both Necromancer and Thief forum because I play them both.
Since this forum isn’t something like “The Thieves Refuge” but it is actually a place where people discuss about Thieves, than I don’t understand your attitude.
Also, if you are concerned about the trash, you should also be concerned about people making threads like “Nerf bat incoming”, “Backstab is OP but 20k dmg from 1200 range is not?”, “Backstab is fine…”, “Let me explain it to you: The backstab” and so on.There are people trying to discuss about the thief state, but you guys look more concerned about preserving the status quo instead of actually talk about changes or balancing.
Each time there is a discussion about balancing, there is always a storm of “l2p noob”, “you’re bad” and so on, which is a clear index of the mental maturity of people hanging around here. And here we come with the same, stupid statement, based on the assumpion that everyone who criticizes the thief state is either a noob or a bad player.
So, as you don’t need my joke (which is intentionally stupid and worthless), so other people don’t need that kind of stupid jokes, like the one in the op. Plain and simple.
You use the word “gimmicky” and like so many others have no idea the meaning behind it, it really makes you look bad, and further perpetuate the doubt you play thief.
Let me give you a hint:
If A-net designed 90% of thief weaponsets and possible builds to be designed around 1-2 abilities, does that mean the player is using a gimmicky build? or the player is using the class as it was designed? Maybe, just maybe if the weapon sets and (some of the talents) were synergized to a role, this shroud of “gimmicky this” and “gimmicky that” would dissipate.
He meant exploit in the good way.
He probably doesn’t even know I play elementalist in wvwvw. I would be darn defensive of my culling abilities…
Nobody said it was an exploit, we all know its a bug. But a thief using lots of stealth benefits from culling whether they want to or not. Nobody is blaming anybody for anything here, there is no need to be defensive about culling.
Defensive? Might want to get your eyes checked. It was called an exploit multiple times in this very thread
The other thing I think needs to be looked into are the 1115 pistol/dagger thieves that save all of their initiative for cloak and dagger and just autoattack people to death over time. It’s cheese. It’s not skillful. It is far too effective. And, trust me, it will remain that way even after rendering is fixed.
Ranged damage mixed with stealth has always been an issue in MMOs. What keeps a melee thief that heavily uses stealth in check are AoEs. But, AoEs are not effective against pistol/dagger. If they are built for stealth and survival they can regularly suceed in 1vNs as we’ve seen in several thief movies. Some of those thieves are legitimatally good, but some are not and are being carried by cheese mechanics.
You make some great points here, and (unlike some other in this forum) I’d like to discuss this.
For one thing, I think you’re slightly overstating the P/D thief’s ability to be effective at range. At range, they really can’t do anything except autoattack (body shot actually lowers DPS) and cripple to deal damage. Any class with actual ranged damage will beat a P/D thief in a range v range fight.
For P/D to be truly effective, they have to stealth frequently. They can do this a couple of times using slot skills, but that means they’ve taken very little utility. After that, they have to go into melee to stealth. This means that you can still use AoEs against them.
However, although I disagree with how serious you make it sound, I agree overall. A D/D or S/D thief has to stay in melee at all times to deal damage. A P/D thief can get into melee, stealth, get out of melee, and attack. By dancing in and out of melee, they can avoid a large portion of the AoEs that would otherwise counter them.
I think that this playstyle is good, and worth keeping. We shouldn’t get rid of the melee/ranged mix with stealth. It’s a really fun, fluid way to play, and very thief-like. I think it’s worth keeping, but it definitely needs rebalancing.
In my eyes, the unbalanced part is the pistol’s stealth attack. It’s really strong, and it’s ranged. With a ranged stealth attack, the thief is able to stealth in melee, open up a wide gap, and then resume ranged attacks. Against a melee opponent, this is a devastating anti-kite ability. The moment the melee enemy gets within range of the thief, the thief can stealth and open a gap, and then follow with a very powerful attack.
I think that changing Sneak Attack would really balance P/D. My personal suggestion would be to change it to Backblast. Backblast has a 300. It does the same direct damage as Sneak Attack, but only applies the bleeding if you’re behind the target.
This will prevent a lot of the problems with P/D as it is now. The thief will be able to open a gap with stealth, but they’ll sacrifice their powerful stealth opener to do so. If they want to do optimal damage, they have to stay in semi-melee range. This still allows them high melee/range flexibilty, but you should be able to counter their stealth with well-placed AoEs. This would still give them the option of auto-attacking if they want to stay out of traps/wells/etc, although they’d do less damage than in melee range.
Finally, I think all thieves can agree that Body Shot needs to be changed. Right now, it’s a worthless ability to use while solo (actually hurts your DPS, and costs initiative). It’s only worth using in group boss fights, but in that case the target usually has plenty of vulnerability on them already. If Body Shot was changed to something a thief would actually use in a solo fight, then you’d see far less 1115-spamming. As it stands now, our P/D skills are:
1) Damage.
2) Useless solo.
3) Buggy gap opener.
4) Ranged cripple.
5) Stealth, huge damage.This means that unless the thief is struggling to kite you, there’s no real reason to use #3 or #4. With their stealth and ranged stealth attack, they’re rarely going to have a hard time kiting anybody. By changing up Body Shot (and a change to #4 would also be nice), we’ll cause thieves to use their other skills more often.
You lost ALL credibility when you said sneak attack was too strong. If anything ALL thief attacks that apply bleed are underpowered given the amount of condition removal in the game, and bleed is the only viable condition damage they have since poison is also next to worthless. Also you exaggerate just like all the nerf thief posts, only in a masked version, saying its some super ranged set. Try 900, every OTHER class in the game gets a 1200/+ ranged weapon. Not to mention the skill required to actually kill an opponent or opponents with all of the condition removals in the game AND the fact they have sooo much time to just have even more buddies show up.
The Culling is not an exploit. It is a bug, but a thief has no way to take advantage of the bug as far as I know. Its like if all the guardian heals gave them a stack of protection with 100 second duration, are you saying that all guardians are not allowed to use their heal otherwise it is an exploit? ….also its not something like the block bug or the Warrior talent that gives them mass damage to multiple targets. They can easily chose a different weapon or not use the talent and be just fine those are not major class mechanics, and they can purposefully abuse them which would be an exploit
(edited by John Lucier.5486)
Actually, that might be Killingfrenzy from [PURG] since it seemed like he was aiming for that outfit; he’s pretty good too. The one I’m talking about is a female thief with some awkward 1950’s hairstyle. We normally group up for an attack, and we usually hear “I’m already downing them. I’m downed.” while we’re still 10 seconds out.
Nah it was def male, and Im pretty sure a condition thief. Looked straight out of Assassins creed. Not sure about tags, coulda been TAC or SM
So what is usually a power build composed of as far as gear? Utility slots? main source of damage(im guessing utility slot for this)?
Is there any well bombing build with axe that has good tanking or escape?
Shadowmoon has a grand tally of 5 active thieves in WvW. They don’t bother ganking solo players since there’s no objective to it besides trolling, but I think their Dolyak kill count on Friday was something along the lines of 17. If you see a thief SM commander, you’ll usually see him dead along with 2-3 of the other server since he has blatant disregard for self-preservation and repair bills. Make sure you teabag him furiously; he enjoys that kind of thing.
Is he the one that looks just like Enzio or some Assassins Creed character?
Yeah well, TAC is part of your part of your server. It’s not a perception when they’re right there to be counted lol. I’d be surprised if Mag could field a couple parties of thieves together on a borderlands even if we wanted to. Mag has an absurd amount of guardians. Everybody has an 80 guardian, I swear.
My part??
It is a perception flaw because if there wasn’t organized thief groups they would not be countable, because theyd be mixed in the zerg and maybe some roaming on the other side of the map. Ive seen the entire TAC groups do both but not at the same time, So when there are a big clump of thieves like that, then you naturally perceive them as many more then they really are in comparison to the entire EB force.
EBay has a lot of thieves and warriors that seem to pretty much only walk around looking for the gank. More then any other server I’ve ever fought. Which is strong on the small scale, but doesn’t offer much on the large scale.
This is largely subjective since 90% of all thieves and warriors spec glass cannon. Just about every thief and warrior from Maguuma I’ve fought builds this way looking for ganks, and I’m confident I can say the same about every single server. The vast majority of players don’t have guilds and groups to run with, so they rely on 1v1 builds for self-satisfaction. You’ll have people that rely on culling as well such as mesmers and thieves and build just to abuse it on every server – it’s unavoidable since it gives them such a clear advantage. Once they lower burst damage and remove the control cap invisibility mechanic, these specs will evaporate.
I didn’t just mean glass cannon. Basically EBay has more thieves than any other server I’ve ever fought. And I’ve pretty much wvwed everyday on Mag since the 3 day head-start. Even if they nerf thief into the ground, the next most powerful 1v1 spec will be walking around and that will probably be what a lot of EBay players will choose to play. You guys just seem to focus more that way than other servers.
You realize why you all perceive such a thief presence on EB compared to other servers right? Because they have that official Thief guild, TAC. So they have like 1 or 2 parties of thieves organized. I always see them running around and some days they look like they are joking off, other times they are methodical and some of the best players Ive seen. I mean seriously, leave the supply camps alone :P
If it turns out to be our worst fears and a requirement to min max for wvwvw and require you to do PVE, well then there is only one solution.. As a conglomerate of wvwvw players, lets just refuse any and all gem purchases till it is fixed or removed. Once they have to explain to the execs/share holders why their income was lower for that quarter, I bet stuff will get changed High-speed
Man, TAC was tearing up those supply lines last night….
How much damage is #4 going to do exactly? What kinds of criticals are we looking at here?
The damage numbers I wrote down weren’t actual numbers I suggest. I just put them there to show contrast between the different skills and because I don’t think they are too outlandish. The max damage skill 4 should do is 2000 if you have all initiative available. This is before applying the crit so skill 4 will end up dealing 4000 damage with base crit damage which is 5 times the amount of damage as the first skill.
I like all of them except explosive shot, we already have horrible synergized weapons, last thing we need is another weapon set where only 1 ability is designed for condition builds.
I suggest having Snipe be the stealth attack.
I also suggest have “Take Aim”, renamed to “Environmental Refuge” just be an toggle that drains init while it is active. That roots the thief for the duration, with the increased damage taken, that allows the thief to use the stealth attack but not actually stealth the thief. But have snipe be the only stealth attack that actually costs initHaha yeah… I kind of put skill 3 in there because the set was focused around crit damage and there was no condition in there.
Possibly have skill 1 inflict burning, bleeding, or poison on every attack?I thought of a better way to do this.
I also like the toggle idea but not sure how well it would work with it draining init since the Snipe ability is based around using all initiative to unload a really powerful shot.
You have the initiative cost on the ability set to 12 max in the description, we can trait for 15, and just because the toggle is draining init, does not mean it has to turn off our init regen (natural, talents and signet)
So, according to you, just because you build completely out of being able to transfer or remove conditions, another classes build based on conditions should be nerfed, and you come at ME saying I am using a strawman argument?? aaahahahah
How hard is it for you to understand that it doesn’t matter whether the damage is condition based or power based, the mixture of stealth and range is allowing people to win 1v3s, 1v4s, 1v5s, 1v6s.
And yes, you are using a strawman argument since I never complained about conditions. It’s not about conditions. You just pulled that out of your kitten to help make some kind of illogical and emotional argument.
I guess it is pretty hard for me to understand that someone like yourself can somehow type english and full sentences but does not know how to read words. Let me repeat, people have quoted you multiple times in this EXACT thread from things you said in the OP about how condition P/D is overpowered. Are you really that blind? I hear lenscrafter is having a 40% off sale, check it out.
Also you might want to learn what strawman argument means before you use it, you are just making yourself look worse, and while I find it amusing the clear lack of self esteem that is usually the basis for insulting one-self, I pity you instead.
I like all of them except explosive shot, we already have horrible synergized weapons, last thing we need is another weapon set where only 1 ability is designed for condition builds.
I suggest having Snipe be the stealth attack.
I also suggest have “Take Aim”, renamed to “Environmental Refuge” just be an toggle that drains init while it is active. That roots the thief for the duration, with the increased damage taken, that allows the thief to use the stealth attack but not actually stealth the thief. But have snipe be the only stealth attack that actually costs init
Yea you kinda lost credibility when you said P/D (IE Condition thief build) is easy, and needs to get looked at.
You lost all credibility when you said I lost credibility. SWIDT?
1. ALL weapon sets lack even the slightest synergy, so every build you are going to see spamming 1-2 attacks, even more so considering the initiative system.
And that makes 1115111151111511115ing with pistol and dagger okay exactly how? Saying something is broken isn’t the same thing as saying everything else isn’t.
2. Every class gets a condition removal ability, INCLUDING necro and some get multiple, and if you as a necro lose to a condition thief (which I have beaten on my cond thief) you are very bad because you are one of the few classes that can not only dump all those bleeds back onto the thief but are better at conditions from the get-go.
3. Front loaded damagethat 1-6 shots a person if anything, requires less skill because you do not have to stay in the fray to make your target dead, which means less damage you are taking, which also means less chance your target’s buddies to arrive. This is why good condition thieves will build as tanky as possible.
4. If anything the amount of damaging conditions a thief can apply vs the initiative cost is underpowered. All they have is bleeding, since poison is lackluster and venoms are next to worthless. That is not even taking into consideration the amount of condition cleansing in the game, so furthering my point. A condition thief will actually end up using 3-5x the amount of initiative to kill a target then a burst thief as well.
Almost all of this is a strawman argument since nowhere did I even mention conditions or complain about them. The problem is ranged damage and stealth, not the type of damage involved.
BTW, I’m a power necro. I don’t transfer conditions.
If you don’t even know what you posted in the OP that isnt my fault, the posters above me already took care of the quoting of you saying that.
So, according to you, just because you build completely out of being able to transfer or remove conditions, another classes build based on conditions should be nerfed, and you come at ME saying I am using a strawman argument?? aaahahahah
Yea you kinda lost credibility when you said P/D (IE Condition thief build) is easy, and needs to get looked at.
1. ALL weapon sets lack even the slightest synergy, so every build you are going to see spamming 1-2 attacks, even more so considering the initiative system.
2. Every class gets a condition removal ability, INCLUDING necro and some get multiple, and if you as a necro lose to a condition thief (which I have beaten on my cond thief) you are very bad because you are one of the few classes that can not only dump all those bleeds back onto the thief but are better at conditions from the get-go.
3. Front loaded damagethat 1-6 shots a person if anything, requires less skill because you do not have to stay in the fray to make your target dead, which means less damage you are taking, which also means less chance your target’s buddies to arrive. This is why good condition thieves will build as tanky as possible.
4. If anything the amount of damaging conditions a thief can apply vs the initiative cost is underpowered. All they have is bleeding, since poison is lackluster and venoms are next to worthless. That is not even taking into consideration the amount of condition cleansing in the game, so furthering my point. A condition thief will actually end up using 3-5x the amount of initiative to kill a target then a burst thief as well.
Looking to rub the dust off my necro from PVE and wvwvw. What are the best wvwvw builds atm?
Would love a build that can do decent damage and survive (who wouldn’t), but feel free to suggest any build that lends itself to either extreme (like well bomber i heard about)
Thanks
P.S please include what gear
It’s on the front page, and has been there for days:
Then me and you have a huge difference in what we define as used successfully. Almost every single person he fought, even the group he fought might as well have been afk because they kept on attacking the NPC, and never really went after him, so they might as well have been afk. I def wouldn’t call an ability viable just because you can troll the worst players I have ever seen in the game.
I have yet to see a video on here that shows SoM used successfully in wvwvw, since you supposedly spot one, why not link it
@Tulisin
I still do not see anything new in your argument to provide any reason why it is going to be viable in practice for wvwvw. Target breaks and condition cleansing are just too powerful for the damage output you can receive in w3, just make sure you know how and where to position yourself.
@Elthurien
Already have tested it, multiple times, even with some healing gear to boost Assassin Rew, etc. Still not viable.
@kitai
It procs SoM off the application. If your bleed duration on caltrops is say 3-4 seconds, it will proc off every target in the caltrops every time the bleed is reapplied for a duration increase. Caltrops radius is no where near large enough to make this worth it.
Well since they have made no mention of it being an issue that warriors can do that damage at that range, then they must have no problem with giving us a sniper rifle with the same or more damage at the same range. Anything else would make them a hypocrit
SoM is brilliant combined with any condition damage. I use a glass cannon build in WvW but I still use caltrops, choking gas cloud and death blossom when I plan on staying engaged in a fight. The heals they give allow me to continue bouncing around from target to target without dying immediately, meaning more downed enemies that don’t rally off my corpse.
Still going to need a video, anyone can make it sound like it works on paper. But in actual practice the veterans know its just not possible. Such an insignificant amount of healing will never save you from a group of enemies, especially when every class can hit you for 2-5k+ sometimes 10k+, Much less knock you down. Much less immobilize and AOE/melee you/corrupt boon you while dagger storming. Also the evade on DB is extremely short, not even half the animation. Also, its not like it heals you on every tick of caltrops or bleed, only when it applies, so thats still very little.
I have yet to see anyone however successfully use SoM in wvwvw (successfully as in not melt in something larger then 1v1-1v3) much less without SoS.
SoM is an excellent WvW heal, but you have to adopt a much more offensive playstyle. With SoM, things like shortbow’s poison field become powerful heals, dodges with Uncatchable are a good way to heal up, and Dagger Storm becomes near-invincibility. This means you have to maintain pressure instead of the attack->retreat style that some builds prefer. The important thing to remember is that, in a pinch, SoM has fairly good active healing for an escape.
SoS is great for travel if you aren’t traited for perma-swiftness, but I’d switch it out when preparing for actual combat if you can, it doesn’t pull its weight. Because of this, I encourage people to not put it in their listed builds. It is assumed that you’re going to slot it in for travel, might as well list what you’re actually using for combat.
heh, you again.
1. SoS does pull it weight, you are still moving faster in combat.
2. If you are going for perma swiftness you are losing big time on other things
3. SoM does jack in wvwvw. At most you will get 100-150 per heal out of it, even an arrow cart will out damage your SoM even with Assassin’s reward. SoM might become useful in wvwvw if we get a 1200 range weapon so you can just sit back without being in everyones range or at least at the edge of it. Why waste a healing slot on a 90 second cooldown elite, that is the jist of it’s worth. There is no way in heck SoM can ever be compared to the sheer target drop of HiS, much less the heal AND cond removal. I would even take Withdraw over SoM any day, especially when coupled with Roll for init1. Only if SoS’ bonus is what is allowing you to dictate range. That depends on your target’s movement speed, their desired range in relation to yours, and who is crippling who. It doesn’t do nothing, but I’d still assert it doesn’t pull its weight, although that is somewhat build dependent.
2. Depends on your existing build. If you’re already taking Acrobatics and Thrill of the Crime then perma-swiftness isn’t particularly hard to do.
3. SoM’s base cooldown is only 15 seconds, and it can be traited to be lower and is the lowest CD heal and lowest CD signet available to thieves, excellent synergy with on-activation effects and hardly equivalent to “a 90 second cooldown elite”. An arrow cart will outdamage every healing ability, but SoM allows decent passive healing while still having activated healing on par with the other two heals. SoM has its place in WvW, just like the other two healing abilities, but it caters much more to an AE-heavy offensive play style than the other two.
I am going to have to agree with Teerwik here. It does not sound like you play thief and are just looking at the wiki. Until you can show a video of you successfully using SoM in wvwvw, it is not possible. Successfully does not mean against afk players either.
Btw, an arrow cart will not out damage HiS, maybe a ballista but not a cart
I kinda like it actually
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