Hello.
This game has no subscription therefore it doesn’t need to do these extremely traditional dungeon currency systems. It just lengthen’s the time people play because of grinding and not because they are having fun.
I have two suggestions only for removing dungeon grind. One suggestion is easy to implement and one is slightly harder.
1) Remove specific dungeon tokens and make all the gear require the same token.
Advantages:
- Easier to group up for a dungeon.
- People can try all dungeons and not feel they are wasting time because they are not getting the token that would contribute to the gear they want.
- People can do the dungeons they enjoy the most for the gear with the runes and stats that best suit their play style.
- Dungeons will not lose people’s interests as fast. Example: Farming full Citadel of flame gear would leave a person after gaining the set feel as if they never want to do that dungeon again. It would not appeal to them because they have over played it.
Disadvantages:
- People may find the easiest dungeon and just farm that only.
2) Remove the grind all together and play for fun and challenge. This would be achieved by making the dungeon have three tiers and not requiring you to play more than once unless you choose to because you find it fun or challenging.
Tier 1 (Difficulty = Hard) – Only skilful players can succeed. Reward on completion – (Example) Tier 1 Citadel of Flame exotic set of gear.
Tier 2 (Difficulty = Very Hard) – Only players who have mastered their reaction time and teamwork can succeed. Reward on completion – (Example) Tier 2 Citadel of Flame exotic set of gear.
Tier 3 (Difficulty = Professional) – The best can only succeed. Reward on completion – (Example) Tier 3 Citadel of Flame exotic set of gear.
Advantages:
- Adds a level of measuring a players skill. If you completed a tier 3 dungeon for example it is a great feat of strength to show off. Unlike completing dungeons now this would essentially start a guild wars 2 curriculum vitae which would be fun considering now PvE has very little competition against other players and considering the name of the game is “guild wars” I assume there should be a bit of rivalry in PvP and PvE.
- The currency for gear is skill. If you have the skill you get the gear. Not if you have the time you get the gear.
- If you had fun you can do the dungeon again and not have to do it again for more tokens.
- If you can complete the dungeon once why would you have to do it so many more times to acquire the gear? The game knows you can do it because you have. Skill should buy gear not your time.
- Different difficulties tests all players.
- Better guild competition (which is unbelievably fun). Guilds can advertise they have done X/X amount of tier 3 dungeons.
- You choose if you want to do the dungeon more than once rather than being forced to, to gain good gear. If you had fun, you can do it again to have fun.
- Dungeons will not lose people’s interests as fast. Example: Farming full Citadel of flame gear would leave a person after gaining the set feel as if they never want to do that dungeon again. It would not appeal to them because they have over played it.
Disadvantages:
- People who are not skilled enough and do not like a challenge will complain because they cannot get gear with time but have to get it with skill. (Crafting gear is still available, Karma gear etc. Just not as cosmetically pleasing).
- People who enjoy grinding will not have fun
- The game might be too hard for people.
- People may say “it is harder to find a group because people have done it”. Answer: It will be hard so people will be trying a lot. Also because you don’t have to repeat it a lot of people would be doing it for fun because isn’t that what arena net said the game was supposed to be about? fun?
(edited by Jordan.6157)
But nobody is left behind here, you can get Exotics in a number of different ways. The only thing you’re missing is the “look”, the “style.” There is no stats difference between a Power/Precision/Crit Explorable exotic and a Berserker’s Exotic from the Trading Post.
but each way is a grind. Karma, materials or dungeon tokens.
I guess your definition of grind involves “anything that takes time.”
No, something that you have proven you can do but have to do it again and again is a grind in my opinion.
With the large amount of grind required for PvE gear and the idiotic amount of Karma needed for Temple gear I wonder why is arenanet dangling a carrot on a stick in front of our faces for a non-subscription game?
Why is there so much grind necessary to get to level 80? It’s all grind, if your goal is to get to level 80. Why is there so much grind to get crafting to 400? It’s all grind, if your goal is to get crafting to 400. Why is there so much grind necessary to get map completion? It’s all grind, if you are focused on map completion.
Everything is a “grind” if your goal is to just get through content you’d rather not do to get the commemorative vanity plate at the end. None of it is a grind if they are just things you enjoy doing, and for doing a lot of it at your own pace, ANET has a nice little treat for you.
Choosing to look at activities in the game in terms of what reward they result in, and then doing things you’d rather not do to gain those rewards, can turn everything into a grind. This is why those things you get at the end are nothing more than vanity plates; there’s no reason to pursue them if you don’t like doing what you have to do to get them.
Anet said they would change from other MMORPG and if this is how you look at it they haven’t changed a bit. Their manifesto lied.
…
Why can’t the dungeons just be very hard but like non-grindy games such as skyrim when you kill the last boss or any boss you pick up his OMG exotic helm of non grinding.And you call me pathetic? lol
This here is the only issue with no subscription MMORPGs. You get the people from the kitten communities arriving.
But nobody is left behind here, you can get Exotics in a number of different ways. The only thing you’re missing is the “look”, the “style.” There is no stats difference between a Power/Precision/Crit Explorable exotic and a Berserker’s Exotic from the Trading Post.
but each way is a grind. Karma, materials or dungeon tokens.
Stop….engage brain…start thinking…..post.
or
Stop….
Whichever you prefer OP….its up to you? Btw so is the grind….
Grinding is a choice in any game. You can either choose to have gear or choose not to. If you don’t you will be left behind. It’s quite simple. People defending the grind saying it’s a choice are ridiculous. If the same situation was in World of Warcraft everyone would be laughing at the game “hahaha atleast I don’t have to do this grind” but instead we got people in this game that instead of trying to offer suggestions to improve it for the massive number of players complaining about it you just say to avoid it.
Pathetic.
I’m curious what your experience thus far with dungeons is.
I don’t want to change the topic but I think they are quite braindead. Not much teamwork required to prevail. I brain afk while doing the trash and just roll when I see a circle on the floor, or a projectile moving towards me. Easy click immobilize if a melee is too close.
It needs to change for more teamwork, test your reactions and not your ability to strafe etc.I think it is relevant to the discussion. If you’re saying that they need to be harder, it’s important to know what you have done so far for comparison. As there is varying degrees of difficulty already present in the explorable modes. Your “Tiers” as it stands, already exist in that Flame Legion gear is easier to obtain than Orrian gear.
But if it does exist like that it is a very restricted tier system. If there were 3 tiers in every dungeon you have a massive option but if the tiers just went up like CoF —> CoE —> Orrian etc there is very little choice if you want something harder than the previous tier.
Because if you only did it once, it would be extremely hard to get others to run dungeons with you and really, it’s not an over irritating grind.
I completely disagree. There will always being people who may not have been skilled enough to complete it and want to try it again or people who got the gear from doing another tier 1 of some other dungeon and are seeing what all the dungeons are like.
Not forgetting it’s not supposed to be easy to do first time. It will take some attempts and require skill. Also eliminating having to do it over and over again would make people want to do it again. I know if I had to do a dungeon over and over and over again for gear I would never want to do it again once I have the gear. But If I had to do it once I wouldn’t have that mentality. Infact I would want to do it again to see if I have gotten better at the game. (considering it is supposed to be hard).
I’m curious what your experience thus far with dungeons is.
I don’t want to change the topic but I think they are quite braindead. Not much teamwork required to prevail. I brain afk while doing the trash and just roll when I see a circle on the floor, or a projectile moving towards me. Easy click immobilize if a melee is too close.
It needs to change for more teamwork, test your reactions and not your ability to strafe etc.
Weren’t you the one cawing about Elitism earlier?
I said it exists for the wrong reason. If it does exist it should exist for the right reason.
With the large amount of grind required for PvE gear and the idiotic amount of Karma needed for Temple gear I wonder why is arenanet dangling a carrot on a stick in front of our faces for a non-subscription game?
Why can’t the dungeons just be very hard but like non-grindy games such as skyrim when you kill the last boss or any boss you pick up his OMG exotic helm of non grinding.
Then, let the player decide if they had fun in that dungeon they just did (even tho now they have alot of exotic gear “OH NO HE DIDN’T EARN IT” shush) and not force the player to have to do it for the gear they want. Possibly change the dungeon system to each explore mode is a tier of difficulty with the last tier INSANELY HARD but completing each tier you get the tier 1 CoF exotic set, tier 2 for an even harder path and tier 3 for the professional only path?
Someone tell me why does it matter that completing a hard dungeon you get the full set instantly? Then you choose whether you want to do it again because you enjoyed it? you choose if you want to do a harder path or the same path in that dungeon and not have to worry that if you fail you wont get all the tokens and you wasted your time and it depends on your skill to complete it to gain the visually pleasing gear.
Noone probably understands a word of that but basically why the carrot on a stick when you can just rely on it being fun and that the players want to play it and you don’t have to make them play it.
Does anyone understand my small brained mentality?
if you call a 1-2weeks for endgame gear grind then seriously you havent’ played a TRUE grinding MMOG
what do you expect? gear coming on mail for free? seriously some people are…..trolls?
No way did I say it should be free and come in the mail. Infact it should be harder to obtain but take less time. I have played a true grinding MMO and the only reason most of them are like that is because it’s easy for MMOs to copy each other. Also because they want to make you play as long as possible for more subscription money.
Guild wars 2 has no subscription and prides itself on being fun so why should it take long at all? It should take a high amount of skill to gain the best looking gear (not best stats) from hard dungeons but it shouldn’t require you to do it more than once for gear considering that you can actually beat it once anyway. You can do it more than once for fun tho.
Stop being so basic.
So your solution is to make getting gear prohibitively difficult for more people. This is somehow the solution to it being a “grind?”
Yes. Why should it be easy? They can easily add easy options of the players who would rather spend a week farming than an hour or more of playing skillfully and conquering hard content. But I think the best looking most cosmetically pleasing gear should come from skill and not time. You should only look like a badkitten if you are one. ( I said the most cosmetically pleasing. Not saying crafted or easy gear should look pants. Just saying the gear that is harder and requires more skill to get should just look better)
You were the one complaining about kiddy MMORPGs.
I am not crying about it. The MMO wouldn’t be dumbed down at all. Infact making you spend a week getting gear compared to an hour is dumb. WoW dungeons would be easy as hell but take ages to get gear and you’re saying because it takes longer it isn’t dumb but if it was insanely hard but took an hour it’s dumbed down? Sorry but people like you are dumbed down.
I’m saying make it really kitten hard so that it tests your skill and you are rewarded with the gear if you are skilled enough to complete it and if you have fun you can do it again and again and again and not have to do it again and again and again because thats what is required to get the gear. Surely it makes sense that if you can complete it once you can complete it 100 more times so why make it so you have to complete it 100 more times? make it so it’s choice to do it 100 more times. Why a free to play MMORPG requires you to do something you know you can do so many times for gear? makes no sense. No subscription they are draining out of you.
Then make the next tiers of the dungeon reward the tier higher gear, have different story etc but make it really really kitten hard and the next one after that insanely kitten hard.
In no way is this dumbed down. It’s far from it. It rewards players with skill and not time, it allows players to do it for fun once and decide if they want to do it again and not think “oh no only 100 more runs to go” and gives better gear to people who can complete the even harder difficulty.
It’s games that require currency to buy gear instead of skill to buy gear that are truely the dumbed down kiddy games.
How is someone having more gear than you Elitism? Are they whispering you linking it or dancing around in your face? It’s not Elitism, it’s jealousy, on your part.
You’re expecting handouts immediately upon hitting 80 and you clearly do not understand the concept of a grind.
Where did I say I expected it to be handed out. I am saying it should only take you to complete a hard dungeon where without skill and knowledge of your profession you cannot prevail to gain the gear.
Why should a game that prides itself on being fun and not a grind require you to have to do something more than once to gain what you want. It should be hard and a challenge which is why there should be a couple of tiers to test the players that want it harder and for some game longevity but if arenanet really thought it was fun why would they require you do have so many tokens for an item? It makes no sense.
In any logical opinion it would be more fun to challenge yourself and gain the gear in an hour than to spend ages on the same thing and then you have more options to doing the other dungeons to challenge yourself and the multiple tiers because it’s fun and not because it’s what is required to gain the specific token for that specific piece of armor.
Why are you defending this boring, tried and overly tested method of a dungeon currency for dungeon gear? It really BLOWS MY MIND how every MMORPG thinks this is necessary when why can they not act like non online RPGs where it only takes your skill to acquire what you want.
I don’t see people grinding the hell out of non-online RPGs for a piece of gear. They usually just have to challenge themselves against something difficult?
Obviously arenanet please don’t make it easy for people to get the gear. But don’t make it cost alot of time.
You can get a full set of exotic dungeon gear within a week, even less if you mix and match karma rewards and crafted stuff. How is that in any way shape or form a grind? The only way it could be less of a grind is if it was mailed to you when you hit 80.
It shouldn’t take a week for you to get gear it should take the duration it takes you to complete a dungeon if you have the skill to complete it then the week should be spent enjoying the game because it’s fun rather than getting gear. Currently there is elitism in the game with people walking around in their shiney fire gear but it proves nothing other than the amount of time they have on their hands. If there was a tier system in dungeons where tier 1 is hard, tier 2 is extremely hard and tier 3 is professional it would allow skilled players that don’t play the game that much to actually get gear fast and it would replace the shoddy how much time you have elitism there is now with an “omg you managed to complete that dungeon” which only makes sense considering there is no way to avoid it. It would also reduce the grinding cries on the forums and would introduce an entirely new perspective on MMORPG gearing which would be innovative. Then us as players can have fun instead of getting spreadsheets out to see how much it would cost for this piece and how much time it would take etc and instead of having fun you spend your time getting gear. Lets admit it everyone that plays this game wants good gear so they sacrifice their time of fun with farming. Don’t say you don’t.
With the large amount of grind required for PvE gear and the idiotic amount of Karma needed for Temple gear I wonder why is arenanet dangling a carrot on a stick in front of our faces for a non-subscription game?
Why can’t the dungeons just be very hard but like non-grindy games such as skyrim when you kill the last boss or any boss you pick up his OMG exotic helm of non grinding.
Then, let the player decide if they had fun in that dungeon they just did (even tho now they have alot of exotic gear “OH NO HE DIDN’T EARN IT” shush) and not force the player to have to do it for the gear they want. Possibly change the dungeon system to each explore mode is a tier of difficulty with the last tier INSANELY HARD but completing each tier you get the tier 1 CoF exotic set, tier 2 for an even harder path and tier 3 for the professional only path?
Someone tell me why does it matter that completing a hard dungeon you get the full set instantly? Then you choose whether you want to do it again because you enjoyed it? you choose if you want to do a harder path or the same path in that dungeon and not have to worry that if you fail you wont get all the tokens and you wasted your time and it depends on your skill to complete it to gain the visually pleasing gear.
Noone probably understands a word of that but basically why the carrot on a stick when you can just rely on it being fun and that the players want to play it and you don’t have to make them play it.
Does anyone understand my small brained mentality?
Guild wars 2 is great in terms of simplicity for new players, it’s easy to pick up but it’s easy to determine a skilled player from an unskilled player which is good. Other games like WoW had quite a lot of skills per class but every frost mage played the same, every holy paladin etc which made the only thing that changes your ability to really kill someone your gear.
The environments in guild wars 2 are amazing. People saying this game is bad obviously don’t appreciate the sheer scale of this game which has only just been released.
WvWvW is good. People complaining about the zergs obviously are very sheep like people. Following the crowd then complaining that they are in it. I spend alot of time going around in a small group of 2 or 3 taking supply camps. sentry’s. killing small groups of enemies (avoiding the enemy zergs because they lagg me out) and taking towers by destroying walls with catapults secretly from a distance.
sPvP is alright, the only criticism I can give it is the lack of content. Not enough game modes for player vs player. Consider a PvP game like Call of Duty (I know completely massively different) but for call of duty to be so successful as a mulitplayer versus game is because of the many different ways to play against each other.
However the disappointing part of the game is the personal story. The start was great like the OP said but it got worse when Trahearne stepped in. (not to mention his aweful quotes “it’s better to fight and lose than to never fight at all” and “It’s time to stop being scholar’s and start being soldiers” and his aweful voice acting). The story made me feel worthless up to this point and the same as everyone else in the game which I hate. I want to play differently. (killing Trahearne would have been cool).
Also the hearts are massively disappointing. Even tho I cannot think of anything else arenanet could have done to avoid killing X amount of something the hearts are exactly the same as any other MMORPG questing. It’s all killing and gathering something to fill up the bar. Quiet boring and the only way to really level up to gather in that area if you want to craft.
Then I get onto crafting. It’s very good, I like how you get a lot of experience from it and how you can get good gear from it however I dislike the way you can not make any gold from it. Therefore I go onto the Trading Company.
The trading company is very well done however the fee is a little over the top. After calculating how much profit I would make from selling a crafted exotic on there I was like “oh ye I can make 50 silver profit if I buy all the materials from the company”. However I was wrong. The fee was soo large that I actually lose out on 15 or so silver therefore crafting is worthless and it’s best to just sell raw materials but I could be wrong.
Another disappointment is dungeons. In my opinion it seems they were made for the traditional tank, dps, healer trinity then it got scrapped and arenanet didn’t change the dungeons to accommodate their own trinity. I really can’t think of how now but it really needs to be redesign so that they are completely with more teamwork and skill rather than aimless rolling out of mobs of NPCs and brain afking trash while you strafe around for 10 minutes.
With the grind the only way I could think it could be resolved is by making all dungeons give the same token so you can choose what to spend it on and not make someone who wants Precision / Power / Toughness gear or so have to do the dungeon that noone wants to do whilst everyone it grinding the hell out of CoF or CoE for Precision / Power/ Crit dmg gear.
Well the downed state is does not mean you killed an enemy. They should be entitled to the abilities they used just before they went down because it is basically just like swapping a different weapon except it’s a pretty lame weapon and you have no choice about it. The biggest noobs in the game are the ones that don’t help people up and complain at the people that go down. Downed state was probably only brought into the game to promote teamwork.
game is 2 weeks old. People don’t know what is best yet. Hopefully when the idiot engineer’s that use just rifle or just pistol and shield get bored of their lack of skill range people will then know what is best to use. If you go alchemy for example the elixer can benefit by giving a stack of might. Depends how you look at it.
well then they would have to redesign some ranger traits because your pet can gain a boon when you go down to help you out or can “lick your wounds” to help you get back up.
What? There is a combat weapon swap for most classes anyway. You can tell a noob by someone keeping 1 weapon skill set during an entire game and not swapping up. Some professions don’t have weapon swaps but are compensated for some other thing that changes skills 1-5 like elementalists swapping between fire, lightning, earth, water elements.
Thiefs are obviously too easy otherwise there wouldn’t be so many of them. Enough said. I swear 60% of players in sPvP are warrior / thief.
Sup,
As a Charr when I enter combat my rifle is drawn out from my back. Once I kill the enemy I spend a lot of time walking on two feet with my rifle drawn out even tho I am not in combat. The thing I love about Charr is the way they run on all fours however my Charr never does that especially as an engineer where a kit causes you to run on two feet.
So therefore is there currently a draw out/ undraw weapon so that out of combat I can run on all fours? If not please implement one. I doubt it can be too hard but I have no idea.
Thank you.
Engineer should be changing the most. They have no cooldown on kit switching. An engineer that doesn’t switch out kits is the worst of all professions.
Mesmers spend way too long in stealth especially when they have a bunch of illusions around. Isn’t that just overkill? I spend half the time waiting for the mesmer to come out of stealth.
If you want a tanky profession that doesn’t die roll mesmer (not guardian). They take alot more to kill than a guardian simply by the fact that they are in stealth way to long with illusions around, they summon illusions too frequently and they have alot of shield abilities. Plus they make you kill yourself with endless stacks of confusion.
Should be able to destroy the portal with normal skills. (Like queensdale killing portals in swamp)
Hi,
I go into PvP and I see a massive majority of people just running around spamming skill 1 and occasionally using their 2 – 5 skills (when off CD). I rarely see people swapping about weps to maximise the amount of skills they can use and to have a more interesting battle.
The amount of damage some of these people pull of just spamming skill 1 is quite silly which makes me wonder if there is any point actually swapping about skills to get a better kill or should I just kite around spamming my rifles 1 skill. Just a question to the people who do it… is it fun?
If so then I will go blank meathead mode and do it myself.
Thank you.
Sorry but people who leave the game for a while and come back will be at a disadvantage with this. (Isnt that what the game was promoting? You can leave and come back and not feel behind???). People who ask for rank for a tournament are the biggest WoW players going. Rank means nothing except duration played, players are still probably disgustingly awful.
The Dungeons are Not Difficult - They are Mechanically Flawed - Here's Why...
Posted by: Jordan.6157
To Ruien (who typifies the “elitist jerk” stereotype so perfectly and ironically), and to all the others agreeing with his viewpoint on this and other threads, here’s what you’re all missing.
No modern MMO can survive or thrive if it locks casual players out of entire sections of content. It’s that simple. Want a current example? Look carefully at the financial woes of The Secret World, where casual players are completely brick-walled from participating in the end-game progression for purple (epic) crafted gear, in a game where gear stats are everything.
And before you say anything in rebuttal, consider the fact that dungeon tokens, many many many of them, are needed in this game not only for dungeon prestige armor skins, but also for legendary weapon crafting components. So if the casuals cannot do dungeons here, then they are effectively locked out of both of these types of “end game” goals/content.
We’re not asking for the game to cater to less skilled players, but for it to actually require some kind skill instead of just patience. The most viable strategy for most bosses is to get a ranged weapon, set auto attack, and then leave your computer for 10 minutes. Is that really what you’d call fun?
Since when were casual players unskilled?
The Dungeons are Not Difficult - They are Mechanically Flawed - Here's Why...
Posted by: Jordan.6157
I totally agree with the OP. One of the most promising things I saw with GW2 was combining abilities for an increased effect… such as a flamethrower engineer placing a wall of fire and physical ranged firing through it to gain such fire effect. However in dungeons there is no promotion of doing this at all considering the damage increase from it is pathetic.
Just a suggestion here – Not all but a few mobs here and there and bosses that promote this by rotating immunity through the elements so one minute only dmg that effects the mob/boss is fire and Electricity so someone places a ground effect of either down so the boss can be damaged or some mobs that stack an insane amount of boons and without massive condition removal the group dies… promoting Guardians placing their wall down (I don’t know the specific spell names).
There needs to be more mobs as well that promote timing, knock backs (into their own AoE maybe) and every single control effect the professions have. Mobs being immune is really not good enough. That rubbish was in WoW where bosses would be immune to heaps of abilities. Lets have a different game plz.
I don’t mind inspection as long as it is only gear and not traits. I spend alot of time making my traits as unique as possible to my play style so I can have an advantage over people in pvp who don’t invest the time in their profession but to have people copy it would make me sad. Not saying anyone would anyway. But an option to toggle showing gear or not is a must.
Dueling is one of the best things that could come to the game at the moment. I hate to bring other games into it but dueling in things like WoW and Rift was a really good way to pass the time if you waiting to do something or even if there is nothing good on television.