Guild Wars 2

Arietta The Broken.1875:

When map selection comes up, it forces you to click one before you can do something else. It’s got an “always on top” feel to it. You can’t move it.

It just feels clunky and “old”.

It’s very obtrusive by design. We want your attention and we want it now!

MystikaLsmuRF.7150:

At least when solo queue existed, you didn’t have to deal with idiots…

I’ll have to go take a look at the code and see how we were able to filter them out. ;D

If you run into an especially frustrating match, shoot me a PM with the datacenter & time and I’ll take a look.

Tigerlily.3765:

Hi,

3 days in a row am getting paired against duo or triple q high level players in unranked.

I have played very few tourney games on my Mesmer and am trying to learn the class. It is almost impossible when I continue to be paired up like this.

Is MMR working in unranked? Is the MMR for class thing working?

MMR should be working. Let me know if it keeps happening over the next few days.

Profession MMR blending is currently disabled. It’s currently disabled so everyone’s profession MMR has time to stabilize, but we may enable it at some point.

Arietta The Broken.1875:

Also, just a side bar.
The match making/map choosing UI is horrible. Fix please. -

Horrible how? 1990’s website horrible?

Gummi.4310:

Point deduction purely based on invisible win chance is a bit crude.

The intent is to have UI for all of this once we leave the test phase. This is part of the reason we’re in a test season; we wanted to get the ladder concepts out to you before we dedicate a lot of UI resources to it.

Gummi.4310:

Especially if win chance is calculated by comparing wildly fluctuating MMR values.

We’ve changed a few things and now MMR is much more stable. After the test season is over I’m going to take a look at the data. I may be possible that right now it is too stable.

Arietta The Broken.1875:

User ISP has a blip
Anet ISP has a blip

There are a lot of connections along the way (called hops) that could be having issues. This is what I was getting at.

ionix.9054:

When courtyard was still part of ranked, I checked after the reset before they removed it and I was rank 89 (surprising to begin with… but my point is that I felt tried hard and that my hard work helped secure a win). Further, I have actively made the attempt to improve and genuinely believe that I have.

However, my rank has plummeted. I am now in the %‘s. I feel I lose all the time. I don’t know what changed, but something certainly did. I roamed the borderlands at the beginning of the week and tbh it was more fun the PvP has been. (espcially given ranger days…)

I wouldn’t think much of it. There has been a much larger number of people playing Ranked since the test season officially started.

Also, we will be reviewing the data to see if any improvements could be made.

Prince Vingador.8067:

I dont think this is 100 percent true… i had games that from 10 players 4 or 5 dced from the game at the same time but the rest of us stayed..

That would suggest a region specific issue, that something happened somewhere between the individual players and us.

This would be an example of why I said its often too complex to place blame on someone’s connection.

Jelzouki.4128:

…

Please don’t derail this thread, and start a new thread if one hasn’t already been created.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

yes, 4 players confirm and are locked in.

but their 5th member somehow got disconnected and failed to get back in for the whole duration of the match.

and match prediction says the 4 players are supposed to win the match.

justin, that is wrong.

:(

It will not go to map vote until all 10 confirm. If their 5th member confirmed, disconnected, and was for some reason not able to enter then that’s another issue entirely.

Either way, right now it is not safe to leave as you will take a desertion loss.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

“this game is safe to leave”
“everyone may exit to the pvp lobby”
“no ladder points are deducted”

why are 4 vs 5 games still allowed to start?

i am talking about players who somehow disconnect right after the map vote roulette.

Oh my, that just isn’t correct.

If the match gets confirmed, which happens before map vote, they will take a ladder hit (and dishonor, if enabled) if they are not present when the instance starts.

Once you hit confirm, you are locked in.

Aktium.9506:

I’m trying to think of a constructive way to say this but I just can’t. Sorry. This is just stupid. I frequently get kicked out to the login screen with a cute little error message when I load into maps from the lobby and it’s no big deal, I’m back in the game long before the match starts. Most of the time anyway. But I sure as hell don’t want to be punished for whatever brief server hiccup is occurring on your end.

I understand what you’re saying, but more often than not the problem is not on our end… which isn’t the same as saying its your fault.

It’s a complex problem that can’t be simplified enough to place blame anywhere with much certanty. However, if it was on our end (which has happened), everyone would D/C, not just you

Also, our servers have no way of detecting the difference between a player pulling the plug to a loss, and a legitimate connection issue.

That said, we are looking at ways of addressing this issue.

Nury.3062:

…

Do you play under a different account? I can’t seem to find any data for your account.

Zenith.6403:

Yes it is broken. I’ve played 17 games and won 4 of them.

You’ve played 33 games, 12 of which are wins on this account. Was that for a specific time period?

imaclown.1628:

Yes it’s broken I’ve played 17 games and won 16 of them.

All I see for you is hotjoin games… 3 of them… over the last week. Different account maybe?

Saiyan.1704:

What’s so wrong with changing the odds of victory? A team’s odds of victory Should drastically reduce if it’s a handicap.

If the handicap team wins, they should be rewarded due to their odds of victory being much lower.

If they lose, their rank points shouldn’t take a huge toll, if any.

We need to be able to message the information consistently through out the match, so we use the starting information.

We could change that, but I believe it still would not be accurate because a 4v5 can impact a team in multiple ways that aren’t easily predictable. It also makes the prediction algorithm much more complex because we’d need to factor in how long players were missing.

Abaddon.2105:

Since Leaderboards displays character name could we also have an information which class is it? Please.

The leaderboard shows the last character played, not the one that is used for the majority of the points. We could possibly add profession, I’ll suggest it to the team.

Essence Snow.3194:

Justin ODell.9517:

Yes. Leaving the game for any reason, including swapping professions, marks you as a deserter and gives you a full loss. A full loss is the same as if your team ended the game with a score of 0.

If dishonor was enabled, you would be getting dishonor for leaving as well.

I need this bit clarified a bit even if just for my own ignorance b/c of:

To prevent exploits, all members of the same party as the deserter would also receive a desertion result, but will not receive dishonor unless they leave early as well.

Does that mean if someone swaps professions the whole team gets punished? If so, when exactly does this take effect (once team is on map prior to match, or during the match)? I am mainly asking to know if a party member swaps at the start of the match is it already lost before it has even begun?

Edit: Btw Justin I skimmed through your replies…I am amazed by your feedback…it’s refreshing (seriously)

I believe I was talking about a theoretical, currently party members do not get desertion if someone in their party leaves.

If we allowed profession swapping, we would not mark the entire party as deserters if it happened without the bounds we allowed.

If we do not allow profession swapping (which is the case now), then yes, the entire party (note: not team) would be marked as deserters.

Slim.3024:

care telling us how many times the team with a superior number of engineers will win or lose?

Thanks.

The reason I am asking is very simple. I seem to be having a much smaller chance of winning a match (~10% I’d guess, if my team has no engineer and I am facing a team with 2 engineers). My chances are around 20%, if the enemy has only 1 engineer more than I have on my own team. The same goes for winning, if the engineer/s is/are on my team.

Now if these numbers are consistent across the board and not just something that happens to me out of sheer coincidence, how long would such a result be looked at before actually making it into a variable for match predictions rather than just being statistics with no influence whatsoever?

Hmm, that would make an interesting report.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

in the 2nd game, one of our team mates disconnected before the match even started, the whole game was 4 vs 5 right off the start, and we suffer a -2 ladder points for that?

this is wrong.

please fix match prediction.

Sounds more like we need to fix taking a ladder hit when someone deserts the game. Once someone leaves, there really isn’t much of a way to gauge the outcome because any person could have played a critical role in the comp or not.

laokoko.7403:

Is it in game already? Or it havn’t be patched in yet.

In game, but currently disabled.

Morwath.9817:

-3 on leaderboard, enjoy
even if you get 1 sec DC due to GW2 client badness

It’s -1 to -3 depending on your odds of victory.

Morwath.9817:

the best way to avoid ‘build wars’ would be to hide display whos in enemy team before it starts, so you could just adjust your own setup by picking synergies in your team and counter class stacking. If you hide whos in enemy team, people won’t be able to pick ‘counters’ and ‘build wars’ won’t happen.

I really like this idea, passing it along to the team.

SlimChance.6593:

The new system now has “Profession-based” MMR. So when you enter the queue, the system starts searching for a match based on your current profession’s MMR. If you change professions during the queue, then you’re circumventing the selection process. Hence, the penalty.

This is the part of the reasoning behind locking profession. The other is to avoid Build Wars 2 and lower the amount secret knowledge that only experienced players know.

SlimChance.6593:

To make it more full proof, ANet should have it automatically dump you from the queue if you switch characters.

You will automatically leave the queue if you leave your character to switch professions. However, due to a bug, that isn’t working at the moment. A fix is incoming.

Solstice.1097:

what about hte fact that when you leave queue you are still actually in queue?

do you get penalty for the bug?

No, you will not get a penalty until the match is created and you have confirmed, and then only if you fail to enter the new instance or leave it.

Teutos.8620:

Quick question, why is dishonor not enabled yet?

There is a bug that could cause dishonor to be awarded multiple times for the same infraction. I have already fixed the bug internally, but it hasn’t made it to our live servers yet.

glock.6590:

I’m not sure yet but I think swapping class and winning the game gives no win but it does give a loss if you lose. Is this intended? I switch class when I solo/duo/ trio Q if there’s already a thief just to get a better team comp but it doesn’t count on the leaderboard.

I usually don’t look at the leaderboards because I know its just who plays the most games but I still don’t wanna only accumulate loses because of the bugged system.

Yes. Leaving the game for any reason, including swapping professions, marks you as a deserter and gives you a full loss. A full loss is the same as if your team ended the game with a score of 0.

If dishonor was enabled, you would be getting dishonor for leaving as well.

Tristan.7430:

Is matchamaking turned off? Because i getting in 80% matches today randoms vs. 4-5 premade.

It’s not your imagination, you have been getting a lot of bad matches.

Last 24 hours:
4 1 vs 5
1112 vs 1 121
5 vs 1 121 (fail)
5 vs 1 1111 (fail)
5 vs 1 1111 (fail)
1 1111 vs 11111
2 111 vs 11111
2 111 vs 11111
1121 vs 1 1111
23 vs 2 21
32 vs 2 111 (fail)
1 1111 vs 11111
1 1111 vs 2111
5 vs 1 1111 (fail)
5 vs 1 1111 (fail)
1211 vs 1 1111
5 vs 1 4
5 vs 1 112 (fail)
11111 vs 1 1111
1 1111 vs 11111
1 1111 vs 11111
41 vs 1 1111 (fail)
41 vs 1 121 (fail)
2111 vs 1 31
1 22 vs 11111
1 211 vs 11111
5 vs 1 1111 (fail)
1 1111 vs 5 (fail)
14 vs 1 1111 (fail)
1 1111 vs 5 (fail)
1 1111 vs 11111
5 vs 1 1111 (fail)
311 vs 1 1111 (fail)
11111 vs 1 1111
1211 vs 1 112

This is unacceptable, I’m digging into this deeper right now. Thanks for the heads up.

Torin.7129:

MMR: I think this algorythm is too complicated. It’s based on Rank, Profession, Ladder Standings etc. etc., but it seems not working.

This is not correct. We use a slightly modified version of Glicko2.

It’s discussed more in-depth here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm#Ratings

Torin.7129:

And i don’t understand, why can’t we see how much is our MMR at the moment.

We don’t want people focus on MMR, and we don’t want people to shame and harass people with lower MMR.

Torin.7129:

Double or tripple profession in same team: Can’t you make an algorythm that doesn’t allow to join 2 or more same profession in a team? Then can be all of the games more balanced.

Looking at the data, the system is actually really good at this, but can be over-shadowed by the new profession dailies. We do not wan’t to put a hard cap on the number because it could greatly increase queue times for the more common professions.

Errant Venture.9371:

What’s the deal Justin?

Since there are so many people playing the same profession, they keep being held back, and held back, until finally we give up and stick them all in the same match.

Saiyan.1704:

First game of the day, full pugs vs a 3+2 team (I lost)

I hate to admit it, but it was actually 5 vs 1+1+1+1+1 and 4+1 vs 1+1+1+1+1.

Saiyan.1704:

Lets just pretend they were waiting super long queue times = poor match making…

This was likely caused by low availability during off-peak hours. Longer queue times would probably have helped, not so much for the solos but for the pre-mades. I wonder if slowing down the fail-safes for larger parties would help.

Silentshoes.1805:

What do you think about this:

Your MMR changes based on whether your team performs better or worse than expected.

The expectation is based primarily on the MMRs of each team!

So…if the MMRs are inaccurate, the prediction is wrong, and the MMRs are adjusted incorrectly.

Glicko-2 doesn’t predict anything. A better analogy would be that it reacts. We think A is this and B is that, so if A beat B then it must be closer to that and vice versa. It improves its assessment of players by adjusting based on the result of each game. It is the outcome of these games over time that is the driving force.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm#Ladder

Flyphish.6398:

It’s still way off. Use hard filters, stop being proud.

It isn’t a matter of pride, and it isn’t even just my call. The whole team talks about changes, and we have designers, and leads, and stakeholders.

We try not to make knee-jerk decisions, some times we succeed, sometimes we don’t.

Also, nothing has changed since Tuesday, so I would expect it to still be whatever it is. :\

Laserbolt.6731:

Which means there is likely something the MMR is not measuring, I think.

Possibly, or it could just be coincidence, or population imbalances at higher roster counts.

Nighthawk.4687:

See that is like the exact opposite from what I witnessed. Any time we had 3 or 4 we got demolished.

Counting only 3+ in your party: 11 wins, 22 losses. That more closely corresponds with your intuition on the matter. I couldn’t see any overall pattern to those games that stands out as an explanation.

No. They are tracked separately. We track one core rating per rating type, and one profession rating per rating type, for a total of 18 ratings. Right now profession rating is being ignored, but the intent is to start combining it with the core rating at some point.

AshinDreidon.3861:

Before the Tuesday update I had a solid win rate in Unranked solo and it’s certainly dwindled but has been rather decent.

Sorry to hear that. Matchmaking was being held back before the Tuesday update, so your MMR may have gotten out of whack from the chaos. It may take a bit before it settles.

Hey @kdizzle.9587,

Your MMR is still settling, so that might explain part of the trouble.

Looks like you’re struggling with ele. Have you tried this build?
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/Dagger

You could also try another profession. I find I tend to do better with engineer, but the style and class of mesmer always keeps me coming back.

Nighthawk.4687:

But now after this new matchmaking system we have literally lost all but like 5 of our games.

Are you trolling me?

Here are your results going back to the last update (16th), and counting only matches were you were in a party.

32 wins, 30 losses, 5 desertions
- or -
33 wins and 34 losses if you go by team result

I can’t tell which ones are guild parties vs parties with other players, though. And you did hit a dry spell there for a bit. So let me know if you are still having issues.

Anomaly.7612:

I don’t really get why this is happening to me. I played early in the AM (4AM-6AM PST US west coast), and I was getting pretty fair matches, but I just played 3 games and all of them were losses where it seemed that it was an obvious premade vs a bunch of newer players.

I’m only seeing 2 games, hmm. Was one a practice? That wasn’t your imagination, you were predicted to lose both times.

1) Forest, was 2-1-1-1 vs 2-1-1-1 You had a slight rank and MMRs disadvantage though.
2) Foefire, was 2-2-1 vs 1-1-1-1-1, ranks were even, but you had MMR advantage. Apparently wasn’t enough to overcome roster disadvantage.

The second one is interesting, and I think some changes I’ve been working on will help.

Known issue. Sorry for the trouble. We have a fix in the pipeline, but I’m not sure when it will make it too you because of the upcoming holidays.

CptCuddles.8912:

It’s not just the communication that helps pre-mades. You need to also realize that it is a group of players selected because they are at least somewhat skills versus a pub of players at variable skill levels. Pre-mades are also more willing to cooperate whereas pub groups tend to resort to complaining and insisting that each individual player is in fact the most skilled and has the best plan.

I agree, I’d like to see what more we can do to encourage pubs to cooperate more. On my wish list is a team finder that analyzes all your games and suggests other pub players to potentially team with based on your past history with them.

Another idea is letting you keep your pub team through the next queue if you won.

Anyone else have any ideas?

novaline.1923:

…

I’m not sure what to tell you. Your matches have mostly been fair, though you were on the winning side of a few lopsided matches. Your MMR may have been too high from playing in a full party, or your build works better with your team more than solo.

The only thing that stands out is one game of Temple. You were expected to win by a wide margin, but lost hard. Do you happen to remember that one? Does anything stand out? Other than that, there was only one pre-made vs solos, and that went as expected.

There may still be something going on, but I can’t really say one way or another because of the low sample size. Let me know if you continue to see this trend.

Sebastian.4610:

So you directly punish players who enjoyed solo by putting them in a team queue environment. As a solo player i should NEVER face a premade team even as small as 2 players queued together.

No, our intent is not to punish anyone, directly or otherwise. Contrary to opinion of some, I do believe solos can enjoy and have a competitive match against pre-mades. While watching the behind the scene data, I have often seen solos take out a full pre-made team, but far too often than we prefer it is the other way around so we will, of course, try to avoid them as much as possible

Sebastian.4610:

You should not have to make a premade team to enjoy the pvp in this game. Forcing people to premade to enjoy the game is wrong, we played solo and enjoyed it for a reason. You say its a team focused game, well forcing us just isn’t the way.

We do not intent to force anyone to do anything they do not like. We are aware of opinions like yours, and we will continue to do more to improve the situation.

Might I ask why you prefer to solo instead of find a team? Is it that you don’t like the time and effort involved with finding other people? Is it the casual aspect of being non-committed to others?

Also, why do you not enjoy being put against pre-mades? Is it that they have an advantage with communication?

I only ask because there are many ways we can improve the situation, beyond just preventing the match ups entirely.

Looking into it.

Edit: Ouch! You have been hit by a series of bad matches. I’ll see what we can do to improve things.

mistsim.2748:

5v4’s should NEVER count toward ANYTHING, including leaderboards and MMR. the game simply shouldn’t count for anyone.

I hope this change is gonna be implemented soon.

I agree with you, with one exception. I think if the team that has a deserter wins it should count. If for nothing else than to prevent trolls from leaving at the last moment to cheat their team out of a win.

Archaon.9524:

Server errors while trying to relog while isp and everything else (Like ts stream and so on) is fine it’s not your pc

That isn’t how the internet works.

You’re correct in assuming that your ISP’s connection is likely not having any issues, but that doesn’t mean the problem isn’t somewhere along the path from you to us. The internet a big mess of interconnected nodes, you can have 99% of those nodes functioning and a single node in the right place can create an outage for a large number of places. It’s usually transient though, as things can reroute around the problem.

Image you’re trying to drive home for the holiday. You don’t know it, but there is a wreck on the highway going South. You may never even notice because you can can still head North, East, or West, but doesn’t mean there isn’t something block the path when you try to head south.

That… is weird.

style.6173:

That is not good at all. I used to be annoyed seeing people with win rates below 50% in the top 100. Now we see them throughout the board. This really needs a total revamp

This is a beta ladder, so please take it with a grain of salt. You’re only seeing one part of our plans, and while we do appreciate feedback do please keep that in mind.

style.6173:

You miss the point of why people didn’t like solo queue.

No, I don’t think I missed the point. This is why I clarified, I wasn’t trying to say players hated solo arena (outside what you mentioned). Again, the reasons I mentioned, which at best, are only summary of the team’s reasons. The two big ones (in my mind) were that 1) people wanted a place to play casually with friends, but in a more structured environment than hotjoin. 2) Players had valid criticism of the solo ladder, which would be true for nearly any ladder that is solo in nature because Gw2 PvP is a team game. This is why we shifted away from solo/team to unranked/ranked.

style.6173:

An unranked arena WAS a good idea. I personally enjoy playing there as long as I don’t get spirit watch, skyhammer, or courtyard (alt-f4 is a good way to avoid those). I’m actually ok with the solo queue and team queue being merged as long as 85 percent of my matches are 5 pugs vs 5 pugs. I am NOT ok with it if 50% of the time I am playing people who have queued together.

I’m glad you feel it was a good choice. I’m sorry you’re getting maps you don’t like, but I am happy that people that enjoy those maps still get to play them, all be it rarely. That is not cool that you’re ditching your team just because you didn’t get the map you wanted.

I can look up your account if you want, though most the time people end up surprised the data doesn’t match their perceptions. I really think we should start showing more data to help with this, but I understand the reasons we don’t.

Sounds like a map crash. Looking into it.

Some additional details that would likely be useful to this debate.

1) The grace period would likely accumulative. Meaning 3 disconnects at 10 seconds each would be treated the same as 1 disconnect for 30 seconds.
2) You connect to the game server early in the loading screen, so the majority of the second load screen would not be factored in.
3) Loading into HotM is required for security reasons.

dexer.2173:

…

Hey, I get that you’re upset. Things don’t always go our way, but let’s take a breath and go over the issues.

You were never in a match with anyone rank 10, at least not recently. The lowest rank you’ve been paired with is rank 33. That rank 33 also has a pretty decent record, with an MMR that is above average.

The new dailies can make it hard to prevent multiple of the same profession. The new system was never designed to outright forbid it, only to work against it happening.

Just because your queue time is <2 minutes doesn’t mean everyone else’s is. A lot of pre-mades have to wait closer to 6-8 minutes for a match, sometimes longer. I’ve had a lot of top tier players come to me about the issue as well. They don’t like easy victories. :/

As for why teams can do so poorly, sometimes the styles and attitudes of players don’t always mesh. Sometimes you’re going against people who are well suited to counter your style. Sometimes you just get out played.

It sucks, but it happens. I get that it isn’t fun, and I’m working on improving things even more.

If you run into a particularly bad match, PM me the date, time, and which arena it was in and I’ll take a look.

Lopez.7369:

Wait, where was the player demand to remove solo queue? When people were asking for solo queue, almost half the threads touched on the subject. As far as I saw, the only major complaints about solo queue were about Skyhammer and Spirit Watch.

I think this new system can work, but I don’t buy that people were clamoring for the removal of solo queue.

Anyway, the rest of your post matches my experience. Most of my matches are reasonably close. But every few games, I get a total disaster.

To clarify, the player demand was more for an unranked arena where they could play with friends and other people casually in a way more structured way than hot-join. There was also valid criticism about the validity of the solo ladder. So we felt unranked and ranked was a better split than solo and team.

I think this was a good move, especially because I believe we can have solos and pre-mades in the same queue with out compromising. I wasn’t expecting to deliver perfection on day one, so will keep trying.