Guild Wars 2

To be clear, I was using 4/4/6/0/0 CI before I moved to this one(and this is sPvP, I just didn’t use that term because I momentarily thought that referred to ranked arena).

I definitely do not deny the power of CI, particularly when stacking might with BD; the main inspiration behind switching it up though is the (perhaps misled) idea that the change to Stability will mean that, in a group fight, at least one person will at all times be without Stability, and it’s actually impossible to predict shatter and mantra Dazes. If they DO manage to be immune, they won’t be for long, and there’s a somewhat decent chance that the synergy between Shattered Concentration and Imbued Diversion will either rip the boon right off of them, OR clear all the stacks they had left anyway. (And all the more chance of landing everything if my sigil happens to proc on GS #3.)

I don’t benefit directly from interrupts like CI+BD builds do, but I think I have a lot more control over the field considering just how many classes have access to immobilize removal.

Without extensive pvp experience though, I admit my reasoning may be flawed and I might be vastly overstating what other classes do when immobilized; it simply never seemed powerful during the time I used it. (ON the other hand, I barely used it at all post-stability update…)

And I’m trying not to say “well I just like this more” since I did ask for critique, but I do feel like the posts above are saying “just play the meta” without evaluating what the build does. This isn’t a question of a single trait; this is a spread that I feel actually targets the weakness of the meta itself, though with admitted concern that maybe I’m not reading the meta with the experience and expertise really required to make that call.

Hm… no, I’m not saying that at all. I think these are my questions, as someone who is still reasonably new to pvp:

-Is stability so nerfed that all the things I’ve put in this spread are overkill?

-Is this build a powerful counter to boon spam and stability in both crowds and 1v1?

-What am I not seeing that I am really losing when dropping BD+CI?

-Do those other builds handle turret/bunker engineers, cele elementalists, and thieves measurably and substantially better than this? (I’m not saying this handles them well either, but I identify those as my problem targets regardless of build.)

…Yeah, that’s what I think I really wanted from this topic. I think I either don’t see or I don’t fully comprehend the advantages of the CI.

ASP.8093:

Some of these seem rather gimmicky, to be honest. Like they help when you don’t really need the help, but don’t do much when you’re hurting for clones.

Having more options does not replace existing options. The whole point is to augment your skill rotations so you don’t have to blow absolutely every cooldown and every dodge just for a basic shatter combo.

The other point is to make clever and more careful play more rewarding. As a utility profession, we shouldn’t feel like dumping all of our cooldowns into a skill rotation/shatter combo is necessary; we should be able to hang on to all of our skills until they are completely necessary. These additional clone generation traits support the idea not by letting us throw clones at a problem until it dies, but giving us an incentive to know exactly what’s going on in combat.

Lastly, if you have two or more new clone generation traits available, you probably won’t miss DE as much as you think you would. Yeah, you’ll need to be more proactive in your defense and getaways, but for a start, you’ll have a completely different setup; you will also be dodging defensively rather than offensively(and wastefully).

It’s not about replacing current shatter; it’s about making other options more viable in absence of it.

I’ll just quote myself from that there other thread, since it’s relevant here.

Kadj.6725:

I disagree with DE needing to be built into our class.

Instead, I think the solution could be additive; shift most of our grandmaster traits downward, and put DE and an entire line of new clone generation traits up on grandmaster in their place. Ideas:

Domination: Create a new clone when you use a Shatter skill.
Dueling: DE, -or- something new like “create a clone when you successfully block, evade, or otherwise negate an attack”.
Chaos: Create a clone when performing a combo.
Inspiration: In this concept, I would like to see DE moved down here.
Illusions: All clone-generating skills gain an additional clone.

This would likely result in more clone generation, but given that other grandmasters would be shifted down to master and some of these traits are more biased toward creating clones in riskier spots, I think we would have more interesting choices available without getting completely overpowered.

Although some of my grandmasters are admittedly a little weaker than others, I feel like making more than any two of those traits accessible at a time would be overboard. DE+Domination idea+Either IP(which would probably remain an Illusions grandmaster) or the other Illusions idea would very nearly guarantee us 4-5 max shatters, which would be awesome as much as it would be a bit insane.

At most I might leave only one of them in Master since that still forbids running three of them; possibly the Chaos one as it strikes me as the weakest from a general standpoint, or DE in its new place in Inspiration, since it allows for a decent shatter-minded selection at four points there(vigor on shatter). The latter though hurts the subtle point I wanted to push on opening up both of the current grandmasters in that line being used together…

I disagree with DE needing to be built into our class.

Instead, I think the solution could be additive; shift most of our grandmaster traits downward, and put DE and an entire line of new clone generation traits up on grandmaster in their place. Ideas:

Domination: Create a new clone when you use a Shatter skill.
Dueling: DE, -or- something new like “create a clone when you successfully block, evade, or otherwise negate an attack”.
Chaos: Create a clone when performing a combo.
Inspiration: In this concept, I would like to see DE moved down here.
Illusions: All clone-generating skills gain an additional clone.

This would likely result in more clone generation, but given that other grandmasters would be shifted down to master and some of these traits are more biased toward creating clones in riskier spots, I think we would have more interesting choices available without getting completely overpowered.

4/4/0/0/6 sword/focus+GS, looks like classic shatter but with Imbued Diversion as the largest change(and Halting Strike as a lesser change)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8dlknpRtlpxGNcrNipxg60OrNSGQDlslxB-TZhFwAAOIAOuAAw2fIxTAYaZAA

I’m still getting used to pvp, but I’ve been feeling like this build is doing extremely well for me in unranked. However, I’ve also been getting better about really abusing blinks, so I wonder if it’s just a placebo and the real power has been in my heart all along/unranked just doesn’t know how to anti-mesmer. What do you guys think?

Thoughts behind choices:

-Melandru Rune for defense and conditions; this build was conceived as a fork from a 4/4/6 CI build, so I had a feeling I’d really be missing the toughness from Chaos. Without Bountiful, Strength felt redundant.

-I feel like double Energy sigil is necessary, but then again that may be the crutch that’s making me do so well. Nullification on GS to supplement attempts to strip stability(and I would be curious to know if sigil procs before knockback); Fire on sword because I still need a little bit extra to burst things down.

-Illusions: I feel like the first two traits aren’t really pulling the weight they need to pull. I’m kicking around the idea of swapping one of them for Masterful Reflection, possibly the bounce.

I do have this odd feeling that I’m about to be told I may as well play shatter with this spread…

To the idea of clones on autoattacks: If I have three phantasms out, I would really like to be allowed to keep attacking for optimal damage.

What I feel like is most weapon sets should have the same potential generation Sc/Sw has… One phantasm and three clone skills. I think autoattack clones are a bit much(except for scepter I mean), but we still have 2/3/4 or 5 for clones.

Alternatively, we could get some variants to DE:
“Create a clone at target position when you use a Glamour.”
“Create a clone when you gain Distortion or Blur.”
“Create up to two clones when you use a Signet.” (Hell, give a full signet build something crazy.)
“Clones gain Shatter Proof, protecting them from one shatter or death. All shatter and death effects function as normal.”

With traits like that, DE would be a nice contender for Grandmaster along with every other trait, while many existing grandmasters could take a rightful place lower in each section.

At the risk of being sad and boring, I don’t think our profession mechanic will change as far as specializations go. Our mechanic is too heavily tied to every single weapon we have; we have an illusion on ~2/5ths of our weapon skills, and four utility slot skills use illusions besides.

I think the time mechanic is that we’ll have devastating, but SUPER telegraphed AoEs; what we see in the video I think is an AoE on the ground that does nothing at first, but detonates a second later, knocking everyone inside of it down. Possibly unblockable/undodgeable.

They may function differently based on our illusions. Maybe the interval before detonation will be shorter, or the effect greater(knockdown for 1 second per illusion?).

Essentially, we’d have a great skill for mind games; am I going to create a clone before it goes off? Shatter early? Shatter late? How badly do you want to stay on this point?

I vehemently disagree with any idea to change our profession mechanic to something else entirely.

I think I can get behind Feaduin’s idea, but I feel like it should and could be engineered a little better. We can generate a very large number of clones in well under the time it takes for Mind Wrack to come up. On one hand, the idea of just constantly hitting F1 for an endless barrage of shattering clones sounds kind of cool; however, a mechanic like that discourages keeping clones up and utilizing them at all. Why should I leave any clone out at all? It’s not fooling anyone, it’s not dealing damage, and it’s going to die if I don’t use it. May as well fire it off.

To fix that, I suggest a supporting mechanic named something like this: Clarity of Thought.

Functionally, it is Initiative but for only our profession skills(nothing else, ever). Every three seconds, we get one pip(total of three? Maybe five?) to our Clarity gauge; our shatter skills each consume 1-3 points.

The direct impact of this change is mind wrack wouldn’t actually be usable much more than it already can, and more importantly from a game design perspective, makes our shatter skills a more “meaningful” choice. Right now, if we have three clones up, we don’t really sacrifice much of anything by using them all… we just dodge roll/Mirror Images/whatever else and have more ammunition up immediately. By limiting ALL of our profession skills, I think our choices would become more tactical.

In addition, under this supporting mechanic, I think we could actually do away with the cooldown on F3 and F4 if we also made those skills use all of our illusions and retain equivalent effects to their current functionalities. This would prevent immobilizing people (Daze spam with Dom XII or Chaos XI) for phantasm rushes too easily.

Furthermore, Clarity of Thought can stand in for the shatter cooldown reduction in Illusions; 6 points in Illusions would make CoT regenerate a pip every two seconds(or so).

With all that said, my idea would create for a much busier UI. I think it would be fun, but it might also be a bit too much.

Yeah, I’m sorry, this was a lopsided nerf to prevent retaliation stacking(which is funny considering might stacking is still around – I guess they really don’t want duration stacking on anything that isn’t stealth). The lack of ICD on Vuln sounds like a blatant bug, and… yeah, no. Vulnerability isn’t worth coordinating a self combo.

And that’s ignoring that we don’t even have double ileap combos anymore. It’s nice to have options, but spending a weapon swap and three skills when you’re under fire for negligible retaliation and some vulnerability on the enemy just does not seem like the wisest use of our resources.

I called almost this entire update and you guys all made fun of me!

Kadj.6725:

I think Decoy will be changed to be impacted by Revealed. (Let’s face it, every one of us had a “Wait, what?” moment when we learned that it didn’t.) It might be buffed in some other fashion to keep it desirable, but that small change would knock down PU just a little bit in this new Revealed meta they seem to be slowly rolling out.

(Added bonus was guessing the AoE mantras in that same exact post. The only thing I got completely wrong was DE, and I still think that one is a matter of time… but that’s getting off topic.)

The fact is, bug or not, it was inconsistent game design. It doesn’t matter from a game_play_ perspective whether “Decoy” was “Stealth” or not; the effect other players see is the mesmer “going into stealth.” As a result, anyone applying Revealed is met with frustration and cries of “hax” (if not literal hacking) when the mesmer proceeds to bypass an entire effect with the very same effect intended to be prevented.

This is one nerf/fix I completely agree with. The more important question I have to ask is: Is the clone still created if the skill is used under Revealed? Same for the stun break. I can guess the answer, but I don’t have the Peoples needed to test this myself.

Don’t tell them to look at it unless you’re ready for torment on cast.

I plan to test the hell out of Mimic. This “AT is better” nonsense really doesn’t hold up in my mind because it’s too unpredictable. Great! I got your one second of Retaliation! … Why do you still have 20s Fury?

Mimic aside, definitely stoked. I think I’ll be trying lock mesmer and MtD(possibly together) in WvW, and maybe dabble in restorative MoP in bigger fights. I dunno, I have a good feeling about this patch!

Revealed is good in this case because it doesn’t oust a single class specifically. Good game design in the case of MMOs is that no skill should work differently for a specific class(unless for ALL classes, like Steal) within mechanical reason – Power Block not working against thieves makes sense from that obscure point. Ergo, we go with an effect that indirectly targets thieves, and it also has the strange side-effect of screwing with area stealths affecting non-thieves.

I suggest Revealed here because it is a counter to a mechanic that… really needs a legitimate counter. This doesn’t apply revealed for free; it has to actually interrupt someone, and if they happen to be in stealth at the time… their stealth skill on full cooldown is the price they paid for expecting a free getaway. (More accurately, for not actually getting away. What kind of actual thief stays around long enough to commit murder??)

It isn’t a perfect solution by any stretch, since of course non-stealth thieves will still get off scott-free. However, it’s the only solution I can currently think of that retains the current effects without requiring players to memorize “oh, this skill works differently against a very specific class”. Anet has made it very clear they want to avoid that kind of thing while in the pursuit of balance.

“Power Block applies Revealed for 5s on interrupt.” (in addition to current effect.)

How does that sound?

This is amazing. My guild has been giving me crap about reading the forums and giving any weight at all to the negativity, but only now am I seeing the negativity as both unjustified and being based on incomplete information.

First of all, to people crying over the skill change: With a show of hands, how many of you were using the skill for the reasons stated in the tooltip? I’m going to guess none of you, because most of the point behind the skill was in the completely unstated channelled block. After iLeap happened, were you guys really still using this skill and thinking “yeah, this is totally going to work exactly like this forever”?

Second: Again, we don’t know if the skill is going to lose functionality at all. I’m certainly not optimistic in that regard, but until at LEAST the stream preview, we only know what the skill gains in the coming patch.

Third: And how would this skill even be overpowered in the supposed new form? It’s weak to itself, and the Mimic+Signet combo costs 2/3rds of our meaningful utility slots. It’s a definite contender for taking one of those slots, but using two slot skills on one trick that is nearly perfectly countered by Null Field/Shattered Concentration? I think it’ll definitely counter the boon submeta in bunker and celestial builds, but it’s not exactly a skill/combo with no answer.

We need more information, not just about this one skill, but the entire patch. Anyone making judgements this early beyond mere theory is placing a lot of weight on a fairly ambiguous one sentence blurb. Aye, it lists the new effect, and it uses a word as scary as “rework”. Until we see a tooltip that says “Mimic” with a description of “copy all target’s boons” (full stop), we know neither what the full extent of the skill is, nor how it will be used. It could be a projectile. It could be a Scepter 3-like channelled skill, copying in peices at a time. It could have a range of 10 inches, or 10 miles. We don’t even necessarily know if it will still be a Manipulation skill; for all we know, it might be moved to Glamour, or even be a weird Phantasm(less expectant of that one personally, just making a point).

Take a grain of salt with a bag of salt for now.

You guys realize there’s no proof Mimic is actually losing current functionality, right? I’m not saying be optimistic, but don’t start writing your obituaries yet.

For all we know, Mimic will actually only copy boons on projectile block(which would make me change my tune on it), and then work exactly the same from there.

Just… relax. We know nothing right now beyond a one sentence blurb that leaves a LOT to the imagination.

Sigh. I shouldn’t say this, because I like this bug, but I got bad news: This is a bug that should be fixed. Why?

In PvE/WvW, you can abuse the exact same bug and fire off a racial transformation skill(Avatar of Melandru, most norn things, MAYBE asura’s power suit? Maybe Charrzooka?)… For AoMelandru at least, the end result is a clone with extremely high HP and power that fires off every single skill that form has.

Soooo… yeah. Also, if the asuran power suit and charrzooka happen to work, I would also like to see a video of what happens if someone does it with WvW siege, especially siege golems and trebuchets… and traps, actually.

I would take this skill at 30s cd or less over arcane thievery, provided small or no cast time. Why?

1. I don’t take AT for cleanse, ever.
2. AT is overwhelmingly greedy and unreliable on 40s cooldown.
3. Synergizes with Signet of Inspiration, which I really feel like is the most unique active signet in the game – I would like to see SoI become our trademark, really.
4. Mimic → Shattered Concentration. I don’t care if most of my new boons are 2s or less, I was aiming for your 15s Fury/Might/Stability anyway for the kill.

If Mimic is higher cooldown, or Arcane Thievery becomes significantly lower/unblindable/is buffed in general, I’m less certain. It is absolutely true that we cannot really make a judgement before seeing the rest of our changes – but if we got the new Mimic today(with current cooldown), I would absolutely take it.

I think Decoy will be changed to be impacted by Revealed. (Let’s face it, every one of us had a “Wait, what?” moment when we learned that it didn’t.) It might be buffed in some other fashion to keep it desirable, but that small change would knock down PU just a little bit in this new Revealed meta they seem to be slowly rolling out.

As far as buffs… okay, pretending for a second I’m not totally cynical right now? I did one super rambly post here. Besides that, in general I predict more illusion-protecting options, hopefully in the realm of straight damage reduction instead of health. I could see our block chain skills getting buffed or changed, maybe mantra AoE increased – hell, maybe make them all AoE. (Traited MoP in zerg for healbot tagging! Sure!)

For some reason, in all of that rambly post I made, I do feel oddly strongly that we’ll get easier access to DE since this balance pass seems to be about bringing up builds that don’t get used. There are so many grandmaster traits we neglect purely because DE and IP work well together… it would have a great and logical home as an Illusions Master trait, but even just Dueling Adept would open up so much for us.

And uh… I’ll stop here before I get rambly again, yeah.

Give me a signet (elite would be a great slot) with a passive movement speed boost or I don’t care about signets.

Also, I don’t think you understand signets. You lose the passive when you get the active effect.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

• Don’t mistake the word “illusion” as providing some sort of “get-out-of-effects-free” card — plenty of things in Tyria do not behave as we would expect if they occurred in our world (e.g. burning isn’t extinguished by water and splash damage only hurts foes).

Yeah! That’s right. And that’s why… turrets… are immune to conditions and crowd control…

Poor neglected thieves and eles, too.

Maybe something else is amiss; I figured you were referring to our known bugs and poor functionality, but now you’re saying your skills outright weren’t working. Does this mean for example you pressed 2, and then nothing happened?

What. Why. Calling it a bug, anet, fix this now.

Irrelevant as per post below mine.

ASP.8093:

(Or, playing thief, I could stomp other thieves pretty reliably by hitting Steal or Infiltrator’s Signet — both player-targeted ports so you don’t have to place the circle — at the very last moment of my stomp animation. There’s no skill like that for mesmers.)

Ignoring bugginess and counterability(not to mention getting shredded by bouncing projectiles)… is this entirely true, though? Couldn’t ILeap+Swap possibly used in a similar manner? (Not the best tactic, I grant; thieves have bouncing projectiles, mesmers will be in stealth when Swap is no longer available, and Eles can just get far enough away period, but any those three not playing well presents an oppourtunity.)

This sounds more like confirmation bias territory, paired with – if you’re staying on the same server – accumulating a full roster people who are legitimately there for PvP instead of dailies. Not accusing you of not being skilled, but your buggy skills become more of a liability (and therefore more noticible) the more you actually need them.

I usually end up in a different order for four games… Start out on a map with seemingly pure meta warriors/thieves/etc that destroy me, and the roster from there will gradually decline each game until I feel like everyone is bad and I feel bad.

Esplen.3940:

Heck, Ley Line’s having rocks floating around them doesn’t really make much sense. They’re lines of pure energy, shouldn’t they be zapping the rocks?

This is getting way off topic, but I think you should expand your potential interpretation.

Perhaps the ley lines aren’t just magical energy running through Tyria.

They may be the source of gravity itself.

Before you consider why our characters and NPCs don’t get sucked up into the rock orbits, remember: Magic. Logic and magic don’t really go together beyond establishing a baseline for rules – rules we aren’t yet entirely privvy to.

Also, while you might have a point with said rules, about picking up the leylines and moving them for these skins… I’d also point out that Evon Gnashblade is the one selling these. He’s a skilled merchant and businessman; I would consider anything he sells personally to generally be replicas based on existing gear and phenomena, and he surely has the means to hire an unknown Asuran krewe to do exactly that. (Actually, I’d be curious to hear if that’s exactly how Tixx’s krewe operates off-season, to get the materials and money he needs to give everyone gifts and fun for Wintersday.)

Curunen.8729:

^Can I have some of whatever you just drank/smoked/injected/snorted?

Extremely terrible sleeping habits, two cups of coffee, and being-a-morning-person-but-not-being-bitter-about-everything-yet?

I’m literally so tired when I wake up that I can’t even remember my day-to-day stresses, much less in-game stuff. >_>

No, screw it. The precedent is set with Signet of the Beastmaster, and I’m going to be optimistic for about… eh… the next hour or two(when the coffee kicks in I’m sure).

Here’s some completely baseless and not official predictions/my wishlist(which ended up looking like patch notes the longer it goes on, whoops):

Since it’s harder to explain as an innate ability, and some people wouldn’t like the functionality if it weren’t optional, I predict Deceptive Evasion drops down to Adept. This enables us to run… literally every single one of those shatter traits we never use, even Bountiful Disillusionment. Illusionary Persona could drop down to Major, but I’m less confident about that prediction.

We’ll be able to inflict Revealed somehow. Maybe part of Warden, or perhaps Swordsman(better odds, seeings how OH sword seems to be less popular in pvp settings). Mantra of Pain might be a good contender too – a short one, making it a sort of a soft stun rather than a preventative ability.

Signet of Illusions and/or Persisting Images will be buffed with damage reduction or a health increase. Any trait that grants us bonuses based on active illusions(the 3/6/9% stuff) will be applied to illusions. All signets apply to illusions. (Useless for some, but that’s balanced out by the previous trait thing.)

Manipulation cooldowns will be lowered across the board, except for Blink. Mimic will no longer require taking damage to absorb the initial projectile. Arcane Thievery ignores Blind. Arcane Thievery will have its cooldown reduced by Far-reaching Manipulations again. This is unintended – a bug prediction. How do they keep doing this!?

Mantra AoEs will be hugely increased, and affect 10 allies instead of 5 so we can better support large groups and our own illusions/other pets.

Null Field will remove two conditions per pulse instead of one, allowing a more game-changing impact when used.

Most of our Signets will enjoy a decrease in cooldown, slightly boosting the value of signet-related traits. Cleansing Inscriptions will clear two conditions instead of one.

Scepter: AA projectile velocity and cast speed increased. Confusing Images wind-up sped up. Effects on successful block will be instant and not linked to a cast time or animation.

Torch: Phantasm given better buffer zone for attacks, attack speed increased.

Focus: Warden will no longer suffer post-traumatic stress disorder in combat – general combat behavior fixed. Into the Void delay dropped to .5.

Greatsword: We did the thing with the numbers like we said.

Staff: Chaos Armor… (inaudible muttering).

Sword main: Cooldowns reduced. Considering a revert to prior functionality, pending the effects other changes to the class have on the meta.

Sword off: Consistent with scepter, successful block effect will not have a cast time or animation. Successful block will also daze the attacker(single target) for 1s.

And on the seventh day, he rested.

(I definitely want bugs fixed and stuff, but I figured for my wild guessing I would focus more on staying consistent with bringing up unconventional builds and the like.

And yes. The coffee kicked in. I am now dreading the coming update.)

…Did my post just break the thread? Does this post fix it? Argh.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Out of curiosity, anyone know how much does Torment do with no condition dmg? Can we get a little mathing here for 0 condi – 500 condi – 100 condi – 1500 condi – 2000?

Wiki seems to have the right of it:
(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + 31.875 per stack per second at level 80.

So, a base of 31.875.
500 cdmg: 50.625
1000 cdmg: 69.375
1500 cdmg: 88.125
2000 cdmg: 106.875

…Per stack, per second, and double ticks when moving.

I’ve never used it myself, but this may help.

Or this.

I have a friend who uses some sort of transformation bug involving one of these foods(not sure which) to get a permanant transparent effect. I don’t know the specifics, but it should be what you need. It may just be client-side, though.

blackbolt.8160:

Kadj.6725:

Here’s the modified version, as per the above notes(but holding on to Scepter for now):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWlknpUtlpxTNcrRSrBZqUg6tcmeSqAUyPUNA-TZhFwAAeAAC3f4wRAIxpAwZZAA

I love the concept of blocks and burning from Runes of the Guardian, but at 1.5 seconds per block without mimic, it just seems like a waste of rune space…

I am inclined to agree, but compared to Balthazar I feel like it’s superior(stats aside). Blowing a heal for a burn doesn’t really do it for me. Good Mimic use(again, only removed for my own lack of competence) would probably make it perform much better. (The elementalist trainer in HotM usually managed to get about 6s of burning total.)

I think the real question is whether it’s worth it to use runes for burning at all, Mimic aside. With my build, it’s about 1600 damage with burn-on-heal in what I suspect is a small AoE. 512 damage for burn-on-block instead, non-AoE(and therefore, “can be stolen by pets and rune pets”). As I don’t like blowing heals for utility purposes outside of PvE or (with a tonic) WvW, neither of these seem all that worthwhile.

I think what I’ll look at next is bolstering my build’s physical aspect; the torment will really just be icing on the cake, but I’m interested in Fury and gaining Might. With no need to maintain blocks, I’ll probably reevaluate weapon choices altogether.

Right. I’m not too keen on Uraydia’s decision to insult me over a simple suggestion/question, but I did decide to test my rune idea out. The problem is… I am realistically not a good indicator of viability. I’m out of practice, and wasn’t really spectacular in practice besides; I suck at rotations, I press wrong buttons all the time(HAHA EAT STUN… where did I get all this HP from?).

So, with that said: Here’s what counts for me consistently being second “best” on my team across a couple hotjoin maps, as of the last map.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWlknpNtlpxTNcrNCrBh6uslfSyBEgSGirB-TZhFwAAOCAC3fIxpA4wDAwZZAA

A post-testing version will be at the bottom.

Why Celestial?
I really want there to be no “terrible” moves to make. When I hit F1, what I expect to happen is a somewhat decent immediate burst(on staff, supplemented by Flame Burst), followed by conditions doing more overall. When I’m sitting back and letting a phantasm fight, I want the phantasm to be doing okay damage, with their crit bleeds adding something meaningful. As a side benefit, between Celestial and the rune, I’m capable of a pretty sweet 8k heal.

In hindsight, I should have reversed my sigil choices; Scepter was always my first push, and Staff was my second. Dampening their heals with Poison would have done me some good.

No mimic?
I think Mimic is better in the hands of someone more used to pvp than I – I think it’s still worth testing. My problem is I was always too slow to trigger it, eating pretty much a full longbow ranger rotation before it even occurred to me. I also felt like something was getting through the blocks too often… Traited necro wells would have been a good contender, but I didn’t see any necros. SO, I switched to Mirror Images, for all the reasons you would normally pick Mirror Images over Mimic.

Shattered Concentration
I love this trait most of the time.
It felt useless here.
I like having super-augmented shatters, but I wasn’t running into any fights where it felt like the boons were stacked against me, as much as repeated 3v1s.
I would consider moving the 2 points here over into Chaos, and picking up Debilitating Dissipation.

Arcane Thievery
Wow, this skill sucks. Great on paper, but terrible amidst a meta that favors classes that are really good at throwing AoE Blind around. I’d say switch it for Null Field.

Illusionary Elasticity
…Not a lot of staff autoattacks from me, so this was a bit wasted. Illusionary Invigoration is probably the way to go.

Overall
Meh. It’s hard to feel confident in any build knowing your own weaknesses as a player. I will say that I think I’m starting to pull away from Scepter; 8 stacks of torment seem great and all, but 5 of those stacks are single target, and not necessarily the target you want to hit – The number of Rock Dogs and Parrots I saw affected by Torment left me rather disheartened. I did like the double block+rune, but it’s a tough question whether it was really worth it… and in a non-1v1, there is almost no defense once you blow F4. Mirror Images definitely helped bring in the damage – and for the moment, I still rather like Celestial stats(no need to repeat the other thread’s discussion though, I’ll probably change my tune if I try something else).

Here’s the modified version, as per the above notes(but holding on to Scepter for now):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWlknpUtlpxTNcrRSrBZqUg6tcmeSqAUyPUNA-TZhFwAAeAAC3f4wRAIxpAwZZAA

Also, I’m not really sure what to do about Blade Training. Phantasms could probably be a good boost to damage with Fury, but as this build relies on blocking, the lower cooldown probably doesn’t hurt(if it even helps… our bugs leave me unsure about everything these days). I’ve been very tempted to play with Retaliatory Shield(supplemented with Confusing Cry), but with deliberately low power, I’m not sure it would do anything meaningful.

For anyone favoring Sc/Sw, particularly with a claim on Balth runes: Thoughts on trying it with Rune of the Guardian and Mimic? In short, you’re giving up condition damage and burning duration(and the low-health Quickness) for Toughness, Healing Power, and burn on every block, and Mimic can potentially block a lot in quick succession. There is no cooldown on Rune of the Guardian.

I grant this is less to do with torment, but if you’re gonna run a double block set, may as well look at more favorable options. Also favors Staff (Aegis on Chaos Storm) and Guardian team-ups(group Aegis).

Does Arcane Thievery steal Aegis? Not sure how Unblockable works in that context. Oh look there goes my train of thought…

Pheppo.9286:

2. Blink (often not working, especially on bridges)

Blink does need fixes for terrain, but I would quite honestly accept anet’s standard terrain response for bridges if you’re referring to the EotM ones(or any other bridge/wall/terrain that is destroyable, they all have this problem). Game engines of any kind have a difficult time calculating complex movement(allowable teleports, AI pathing) on surfaces that are, code-wise, just a glorified ally/enemy that you can walk on. Any game you might give me as an example of it working fine most likely doesn’t really have “complex movement” as much as they have code that is like “right, physically move in this direction at a speed of 12,000 miles per hour for three frames.”

To employ a solution similar to that would require a lot more server optimization… and judging by the fact that apparently summoned minions create extreme server performance issues, I would say GW2 is anything but finely optimized.

In the mean time, Blink is still very powerful, and lets us get places we probably really shouldn’t be able to go instantly. As that would probably be fixed if they DID optimize it better, for this particular skill I think we should accept what we got.

3. Animation frozen, after blink. The char is running without animations. Only cosmetic, but …

NO. THIS IS THE BEST THING ABOUT BLINK. LEAVE MY SURFING MESMER ALONE.

Peculiar… I was literally just testing this out, trying to find just one more working build to salvage our class. And -

Ansau.7326:

This is a build I would start:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtdqxRNcrNitBdyakDUPkjsySGghB-TVyCABAcEAO+BAglSJm3f4S1fySZje6DGTJ40nCgAAIAzsMLzZGwMn5Mn5MnZpAgYaE-w

This is almost exactly what I came out with, traitwise.

I feel like there’s an over-reliance on Torment here, though. Yeah, we want to get the most out of it, but it comes at a cost of defense and utility, I think. That is… okay, you can maintain 100% torment uptime… but you’re not PU. Can you live?

WITHOUT testing it in pvp(I’m not exactly, ah, pro), I liked the idea of using Desperate Decoy, and dropping Decoy for… something. Might not be the best strat given the weapons involved, but I want a getaway for burst builds (especially thieves) that catch me with mantra down(I was doing the mantra+balth thing). I feel like Arcane Thievery would be good, to counteract our limited Might-gaining abilities.

I was also using Celestial gear, trying to make it work despite Fay’s discussion in that other thread. I want this build to be relatively effective even against cleanse-happy enemies, via phantasm damage and the like.

With all that said though, I couldn’t really work out a good rotation, and if taken into wvw, all most classes need to do is throw on swiftness, cleanse, and run.

I really don’t want to be a minstrel. We could summon one, that would be cool, but the whole joke is we aren’t minstrels. >_>

(Although a phantasm-based weapon that lets you effectively summon an entire band – THAT would be pretty sweet.)

1. Warden(WITH reflect fix)
2. Elasticity
3. Targetted skills failing within range

And a fourth that applies to all classes:
4. Ground targetting hits your feet if your mouse is over just about ANY UI element. Seriously, I need to aim within the 25% of the screen that the UI gives me? There is some convenience in this, but I shouldn’t have to fight with the camera to throw Chaos Storm/elementalist skills at players on walls. (Or Blink up cliffs.)

Joodu.5368:

Whip.

Just saying..

To make it easy for the devs how about using pistol MH but instead of shooting bullets there’s a giant pink/purple glowing whip coming out of the head of it? Kind of like the gunblade from final fantasy but more etheral.

I will accept this absurdity on the sole condition that they make the legendary pistol fire a little sign that says “Bang!” for melee attacks. OTHERWISE, NO SALE.

(… Quip whip)

Absconditus.6804:

I don’t really see myself as a Mesmer running around bashing people with a Hammer, I’d rather see Engineer’s get that as a new weapon available to them.

Aww, the idea of smashing your own illusions to get an effect doesn’t do anything for ya? I felt pretty brilliant when I thought of it.

But there’s still currently existing weapons that each profession could get to use, before we get to the need of making new models, animations and so on forth for totally new weapon types. Existing stuff tends to share animations across professions, with the visual spell effects being what sets them apart.

As much as I’d like to see engineers with hammers, I’ve come to dislike this “make it as easy as possible on the devs” ideal going around. No, screw that. We’re two years into the game, we’re not getting an expansion, and I’ve specifically said “no, I am not buying that” to things I’ve wanted on the gem store because of how Anet has been treating the game lately.

Screw easy. I’m not giving them another cent until I see something BIG happen, something to actually restore my faith in the game. The correct answer here is “give us THREE weapons, at least one being entirely new to the game.” “Give us new utility and elite skills.” “Fix meaningful things.” We’re not just playing a game here – we are their customers. It’s not our job to worry about how much trouble they go through every night for us – our job is to give them money for goods or services, and we want something new, something for everyone.

I’m cool with daggers. I’m cool with hammers, rifles, whatever. But don’t say “fans would be cool, but it would be easier if they didn’t.” Their cost-benefit evaluator guys would see that statement and be like “Oh, maybe it’s not that popular an idea, let’s pursue something else.”

Anet, the bottom line: I WANT MORE WEAPON CHOICES.

Swish.2463:

+1 for fans but can i get those without a phant or clone skill and can i get them to deal 2x the damage of any other weapon set we have?

also can i get a new class mechanic and remove all our clones and phants to utility status… and then buff all our other weapon damages and uses to compensate for what the devs considered to be a good idea being resigned to where it belonged all along?

Dude just roll Necro/Ele/Guard. Elementalists have glyph pets, Necros have an entire minion build, and Guard has illusionary weapons which, while seemingly not competitive, have enough traits to make valid enough builds from.

I’m right with you over the pain the nerfs have inflicted, but you’re asking for a complete change of mechanics, including dropping clones and phantasms. Maybe Guardian is perfect for you; they have fire fields, blasts, their pet/illusion mechanic is a utility, and those illusions even come with their own shatter-like effect(Command, if not traited). They even use most of the same weapons as us, so if you have any ascended or legendaries, you can trade them over!

But leave the rewrite out of this. We just need “some” buffs and fixes, and more skills; a complete change of profession mechanics is out of the question both from Anet’s cost:benefit standpoint and a player receptivity standpoint(a lot of people would quit playing if they woke up one day and found that they have to relearn a class they’ve played for two years from the ground up).

And now we’re off topic.

Re:spears: Nah, spears don’t “shatter” things – they penetrate and pierce, and any shattering resulting from that is just physics at work. If you were to pick up a hammer, your aim is to break walls, smash brains, and shatter bones. (I’m not against landspears, I’m just responding to the earlier insinuation.)

Oh, a thing about the hammer idea: Nothing says we’d have to stick to current standards for weapons. What if hammers actually consumed clones/phantasms? What if we had to make a conscious choice in the heat of combat to either consume our current buildup for a strong effect versus build for a shatter?

And for fans, what if fans replaced scepter as our clone generating weapon? Maybe four(assuming dual wield) of the five skills created clones, while letting us do a ton more evading and moving than damaging, with a more obscure phantasm that produced more clones on hit?

Fans. Not foci, but actual fans. I feel like fans would work great for actual leaps/evasive or movement skills – a more acrobatic/kinetic playstyle.

Among existing weapons… we need more melee options. Even though we use staff/scepter at point blank range, I don’t consider them such. So I’d second dagger for a 1h weapon, but we also have a deficit among 2h for melee, so… hammer, maybe? I can’t think of a better instrument to shatter things with.

I can’t come up with a good introduction for this. This is in regards to the Charr/Ogre story quest, Untamed Wilds, at level 42, the second step of the story(following the initial visit to the kraal, you go to the brand).

Here’s a picture of some Shatterers flying around, and one that has somehow managed to land on all four feet… in midair.

They all do this. They spawn in abruptly on all fours, play a roar animation(with sounds), and then fly off, all at different assorted points throughout the instance. (I think there’s 5-7 spots.) As best as I can tell, there is no gameplay impacted by this, but I’d imagine it’s a good sign something very interesting is broken in the client’s animations.

It’s quite a sight to behold, nonetheless. I’m not sure I really want it fixed.

Bug consistently occurs upon multiple revisits to the instance; simply visiting the story step is reproducing the effect. Charr character, vigil.

Pretty straightforward for me.

1. Make build.
2. Consider defense. If I don’t think I have enough, I’ll go with a defensive food(+hp/tick or vit, usually.)
3. If not, go pure offense.

The last, and most important step:

4. Disregard any choices made above. Run with Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew in the end, because of the endurance regeneration.

I JUST GOTTA HAVE MY FIX, MAN.

Veruah.5302:

I was curious, however, what you all think of this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAraRl0npMt1oxQNcrNiphY6bxydqqkOwhBA-TJhBwAAOFACeCAjLDwc/BA

The idea here is to get guaranteed dazes/stuns from pistol while also having a pretty good phantasm for proccing Sharper Images at a distance.

You don’t have Sharper Images. That’s Dueling 3. I’m seeing 6/0/6/2/0 in your link… Is this the right build?

…

Is nobody going to mention that we have an entire god that seems to answer more than just this?

I dunno guys – Lyss and Ilya seem a little bit closer to each other than any twins I’ve ever seen or met.

I actually toyed with Restorative Mantras during the Tower of Nightmares. I set Mantra of Pain to autoattack, and stayed with my phantasms; the mantra would heal them almost to full every couple seconds, and they managed to stay alive almost all the time even in the AoE-heavy final boss. It was annoying, but it worked, and my party stayed alive for a lot more of the fight than when I dropped it and went for damage. (Never again, though.)

If you’re running huge fights, and really want to go full support, go with Rune of Mercy, first of all. It’s pretty amazing for getting people up, and should still be pretty cheap. I don’t know if rune effects stack – I figure they should – but if you can collaborate with a couple more people for the same, you can probably res Defeated much faster than forcing them to waypoint.

Statwise, if you do what I did and run mostly phantasms, you’ll probably want power, healing, precision, and get ferocity where you can. Healing may not help mantras much, but don’t forget – you should be getting a Regen pulse from Phantasms. The rest of those are just for improving DPS where you can. (Find something – maybe vit and toughness – to swap precision and ferocity with if you choose to focus on “world objects” like Teq though, crit does nothing for them if you weren’t aware.)

I really don’t agree about Halting Strike. Maybe I just suck at interrupts, but I don’t think you’ll be interrupting someone perfectly every 10 seconds(ballpark average for cooldowns), and you’re definitely not going to crit with it every time. With players capable of keeping Stability up, and Chaos Storm only randomly inflicting daze, Diversion’s chance of shredding Stability is the only reasonable interrupt. On the other hand, you’ll – presumably – be throwing a lot of Mind Wracks out. The damage may be “inferior”, but it is a constant; it is reliable, and pressures the enemy more.

I’ll permit the compounding power argument over Precise Wrack, particularly as per my earlier testing, – I’m not sure I buy that you have a high illusion uptime, but it is reasonable you’re getting 3% on any form of spike, whether it’s interrupt or shatter.

My whole problem here is really just in Chaos Storm. I love it to death, and I think it’s GREAT in this support-based build, but it isn’t really an interrupt like anything else we have – that lack of reliability, even with the chance of it interrupting 5 people more than once, just doesn’t strike me as something to justify Halting Strike. I just feel like one more interrupt is needed to make it work.