Vengance is really only usefull if you’ve already downed them and need to finish them off though.
I’m joking of course.
These kind of 2 button wins only really work against the unaware and the unskilled.
The downed state needs to go all together in my opinion.
Glad your opinion won’t come to fruition.
The issue is that some classes have powerful stall tactics in their downed state, while others really don’t have much in terms of them.
Mainly I think the biggest problems lie with the wearker downed states, like Elementalist’s in particular could be a knockback or something.
The rest are ok, really. Everyone has a tool to stall enemies in order to get help and be revived except Elementalist. Mesmer’s, people’s biggest complaint, can actually hurt them because some people don’t know which to revive.
1)Phantasmal Swordsman/Duelist (Your prefrence.)
2)Phantasmal Berserker.
You do realize that short of deleteing Thief and Mesmer you will never NOT be frustrated with them, right?
All I can say is what anyone can say:
Spin to win!
There are some powerful Melee builds with Mesmer, actually. I run one. They run a bit on the defensive side, trait wise, but they are a fair bit more dangerous than people give credit for on paper.
The main issue right now is that Sword is bugged. Some of the cooldown traits on it do not cross apply as they do with other abilities.
But if you’re going to do Sword builds, it’s usually good to go all the way, because staying in range tends to confuse the enemy due to you and the clones all being close range of each other.
I’m experimenting with a few other build workings for my melee mesmer combo right now, but if I get a good game going I’ll show it off.
As far as Staff itself, I can’t speak from experience in sPvP, I can’t really get it working effectively for me.
That’s not a small note. That’s a large gripe, and again, nothing that hasn’t been said or rebutted before.
You are almost right here. Mesmers and guardians don’t need massive nerfs. The problem is phantasms and retaliation.
The thing I’m seeing now is a mesmer in a phantasm build will spawn two phantasms from behind LOS to attack you (these days, greatsword and sword/pistol are used). If you are glass like the mesmer is, then half your health will instantly be gone because a phantasm is initially invisible to you when they are performing their first attack making it impossible to dodge. After this, all the mesmer has to do is stealth and hide behind LOS while summoning more phantasms. If the mesmer sees that you are far enough away from him or are attacking his phantasms, he will sit at max range attacking you with his greatsword until you target him again. Then he’ll just LOS, stealth and/or run away from you while re-summoning phantasms.
Ok, here’s an informed opinion, but not quite in the full of the scope.
There’s a reason why cheap mesmers like the one’s you describe are using Pistol/Greatsword, and it has very much to do with line of sight, or more importantly, pathing.
The only two Phantasems that can completely bypass line of sight is Berserker, who spawns in direct association to the target (Regardless of line of sight) and Warden, who obeys the same rules, but is rooted.
Duelist attacks at range, but spawns in relation to the caster. They have to run to you and hope they get in range before reaching Mesmer’s max illusion range (in which case they shut shatter regardless of cooldown.) This function is shared by every other Phantasem type.
The player who’s allowing themselves to be assaulted at range is doing a poor job persuing his targets. Get a roamer to push him out of his max range for his phantasems and he’s not a threat. That, or blanket AoE’s where you’re bunkering and keep an eye on where the duelists are spawning.
As far as adjustments in this vein. I’d be ok for a Line-of-sight requirement on iBeserker, so long as misfiring my illusions puts them on a shorter cooldown. Suffering the full cooldown because some sniping ranger of thief decided to duck behind a rock would be infuriating and class crippling.
iSwordsman and Duelist should be fire-able regardless of line of sight as it has to move to its target, and again, Mesmers have a limited control and summon range on all illusions. As far as adjusting these two in terms of damage, that’s going to be more trickey as we have several things factoring in on why they’re doing so much, and each individual reason is fair. Though, how about trading of one of the Illusion/Phantasm damage traits? We don’t need both as Illusions are kind of pointless damage wise. Either one of these traits can be changed into something different, and there’s your damage nerf.
As far as Mesmer’s elusiveness, THAT’s a learn to play issue. Again, most phantasms originate from a mesmer, so if you’re seeing phantasms walk around the corner towards you, go around the corner. I’d eat a larger cool-down for our blink (not phase retreat, blink.) considering it’s a stun-break + relocate, but I’d like to have a trade off for it.
I will accept that an organised team will perform better than a disorganised one, but equally an overpowered class will perform better than one that is not.
We know its going to happen – just can we have the thief/mesmer nerf sooner rather than later?
This is presumptive, and poorly thought out.
Have you bothered going to each class forums and looking at the bug lists? Some of them are heavily crippeling.
Most functions of each class are working as intended, and the ‘nerfs’ your proposing are not nerfs so much as class-rewrites – and that stands to tick off more than just the sPvP hogs.
Most, not all, of the problems listed with this class are player issues. Yes, I said LEARN TO PLAY. Or more importantly, play the class for a while. Yes, it will seem easier at first, but when you start encountering some of the frustrations I have you’ll realize it’s simply a matter of people NOT playing the methods that counter you enough.
Mesmers are weak to:
Condition Rangers
Staff, Scepter/Dagger Necromancers
AoE/Survival Elementalists
A Mesmer can also easily get burst down if identified and not carrying blink or relying upon staff for defenses.
The problem is, people are playing a 1 v 1 meta right now. Meaning heavy single target damage and dueling. Why? People like pubstomping one another in hot join, and Thief and Mesmer have the best burst and DPS respectively on top of being elusive. NOT TANKY, elusive.
And anyone who plays any sort of competitive play realizes that elusive builds are best locked down, bled or AoEd to death. Apparently this slips past the MMO crowd, perhaps due to a lack of brain power, I don’t know.
Will Guardian/Mesmer/Theif get adjusted? Yes. Every class will. It’s early in the game’s lifespan, they’re always adjustments to be had.
Will they get ‘nerfed’ likely not. A shave off the top end of the damage like Thief’s heartseeker was to prevent kitten abuse. But otherwise you’re going to be just as frustrated with these classes as you are now, because their core mechanics are built to. Thief’s elusiveness is its defense and offense. Mesmer’s deception is its offense and defense.
Learn to play as a team and you won’t see the player’s strongest soloists be so common in matches.
Nah.
The elixir issue isn’t a glitch, it’s actually Meant to function that way. Same thing with the resurrection Ult on Rangers (Annoying as all F by the way.)
The Thief was burning his initiative on all stealth skills. A few of them actually took him away from the battle for a while and he returned. Best way to describe it.
Take a look at a You Tube video of a stealth thief. Actually, get in the habbit of watching each class on You Tube. It’s the best way of seeing how these classes can play.
common knowlege is wrong, though people think that way, and then get stomped.
Again, pay attention to your win/loss ratio. Bads will play conceptually overpowered classes, but most will fail hard at them. You’ll find the balanced teams winning more often as people are already learning the counters to these so-called ‘overpowered’ professions.
Observation.
And another yes – we know those who play overpowered classes always claim (a) they’re not and (b) those who can’t beat them are noobs.
Funny how much easier the game is when you play one though isnt it?
Nope, not easier at all actually. I have a better time on my condition Necro of late because people insist on playing classes that are weak against it.
Or Engineer. It’s funny playing a MMO version of Tristania.
He’s making observations based off game rosters during prime time.
Which is hilarious because I’m seeing a huge spike in ranger participation, actually.
This isn’t a honeymoon period problem. This is a problem with the players not thinking through. The Meta is changing, however.
The more players play Mesmers and Thieves, the faster people are learning to counter them. Right now, games won are won by balanced teams, not by teams of FoM classes.
I main mesmer and honestly, there’s something off with the profession. It’s the only profession where I (and seemingly most high-level players) run pretty much berserker all the way and still feel about as survivable as a non-tanky guardian or necro. The clones make Decoy and Blink awesome, but apart from that, they’re just disproportionately good against beginners.
The real problem is the combination of staff, Ethereal combos and possibly the trait that gives protection on regen. Mesmer is the only profession that has a (semi) stunbreaker and anti-immobilize in a neat 10 (usually 8 )-second recharge pack. This makes them virtually invulnerable to regular burst specs, even if he makes a positional/clone mistake. While Chaos Armor is up (and thanks to Leap finishers, it is up a lot), it’s a given that he has protection. Again, something that is usually a medium-recharge utility skill.
Then there is Sword/Pistol. It’s the main Mesmer damage set, except it still offers defense comparable to guardian weaponsets. This is understandable with Mesmer having caster armor, but eh. Make a mistake, and Blurred Frenzy usually is there to bail you out. Have fun with the dual Leap finisher that is skill 3, especially if you use Null Field (which you should, shortbow rangers and condition necros are among the only things that make me feel vulnerable). Trick Shot I’m sure everyone knows, buys a couple seconds against anything.
Not really related to this thread, but these 3 weapons are so much better than everything else mesmer has that major nerfs/buffs are in order. I used a greatsword+sword phantasm build when I started tournament play and when I found out how to really use staff, the loss in damage felt like nothing. I successfully played a scepter condition/shatter build for over 80 tourna matches and when I switched to sword, it only took a match or two and I felt like I’d been an idiot.
I’d like to see your build.
The TRUE issue about Mesmer is that it’s enitre mechanics rely on deception, and those unfamiliar with the build do not get the benefit of capitalizing on your weaknesses.
For example, depending entirely on your build, you could be highly vulernable to condition damage and AoE damage. My guess is that you’re running a power/condition damage build which is why could could flawlessly switch to Sword (Main or offhand?)
It’s not that you’re highly survivable, it’s that you’re slippery and people are trying to lay physical damage on you, instead of piling on the condition/AoEs. I’d have to see your build, however to see for certain.
Commentary aside, I’ve made my suggestion. I’m in camp that believes a more open, human PR approach that occasionally makes mistakes or has to change plans goes over better for the community than a fairly silent one. And I hope Arenanet and NCsoft grows to understand and adapt that policy.
Ultimately it’s there choice. Thus far I’m satisfied with their product and enjoy the innovation, as well as their stances on unfair play and harassment.
However, I was this way with BioWare as well and it was their PR policy that eventually pushed me far enough away from them that I’m wary to make any purchase from them.
I hope Arenanet does not meet the same fate.
- Moa: cast it after staff 2 or simply vanishing and relocate. Your opponent won’t have a chance to react to the spell.
Moa single-handedly kills a necro minion spec because it despawns all minions and triggers the cd also the elite one plus cancels all elite forms and gives you a free go on the necro. Also in group fights it is simply deadly because you can focus on one while ignoring the other.Amusing how some mesmer players even call it mediocre…would you like to have a class with a spell against you which puts all your utility spells on cd, stops your minion production and cancels your elite skill? I guess so, after all it is mediocre…
Shall we mention that your flesh golum is on a one minute cooldown? Not to mention will do more damage over that period of time than Moa, which does no damage at all?
Your Golum also bypasses all normal PvP AI checks and goes directly for me unless I blow a sealth cooldown.
- Oh yeah, in a group fight your can only give your group a massive edge over the other once every 3.5 min and basically giving them the ability to roll over the enemy. Pretty bad…yeah
You know, unlike any other quickness ability, Time Warp has a MASSIVE tell by creating this gigantic purple dome over the area where quickness is in effect. Quickness does NOT take effect outside this bubble. Instead of trying to grunt through it, you can, you know, leave the area, fight outside the bubble, and return 10 seconds later. Just watch out for ranged.
“I would trade any of those 3 for something actually useful to my character.”
When I read such a comment I wonder if you are either a hypocrit, the worst player on the world or just an ****.
Aww, tell us how you really feel.
The point of the matter is, Time Warp and Moa both have massive cooldowns that I just don’t feel are good enough to justify.
Ok, so we won ONE teamfight. Cool. I’ll get maybe 2 uses out of Time Warp in an entire sPvP match. Chanses are if my team was relying on that teamfight to win against you guys, we’re going to lose consistently over the next three and a half minutes.
With the exception of Mass Invisiblity, I have to be incredibly choosy about my elites for it to be of any significant use to a match.
And while you find the perspective of a Mesmer amusing, I find it equally amusing that the people who complain the most about Mesmer’s Ults are Necromancers.
I think your essential problem has less to do with Mesmer, and more to do with how easily your pets are dispelled. We have the same problem with our mantras. This isn’t a problem with Moa either, it happens for us every time we go in and out of water.
Having played Necro abit, I think the problem lies more with how there seems to be no memory surrounding around changed states. Either your pets should stay alive when Moaed, or should return when you come back. Same for Mantras.
A lot of the flack people are giving these classes, Guardian, Thief, Mesmer. Is that they’re flashy jobs. Thief steals the show by having such high burst. Guardian, has a lot of defensive abilities that counter burst, and Mesmers have a lot of deception tools that make them seem so poweful and invinceable.
Yet, there are so many powerful class builds here that serve as counters that are being overlooked because they don’t have these bells and whistles that make you go “Oh crap, here’s an Engineer!” But they’re just as powerful, and many times serve as counters to the classes you hate so desperately.
They wont because if something changes from what they’ve said..people get bent out of shape. No game company will do that (unless its a new company unfamiliar with how people by nature are).
I’ll referr you over to Square Enix’s FFXIV community team, which has done an amazing job of providing snippets of information when larger portions of information is delayed.
The concept of ‘I can’t ever say anything because a tiny portion of it MAY be changed’ is fundamentally flawed. We’re all human here. We should not coddle or fear the internet idoicy that assumes that everything said is set in stone.
Nor is it harmful to provide minor tidbits you ARE certain of, no matter how minor that info may seem.
“Heya, we’re delayed on our Blog Post because we got a swath of new info we wanted to sort through before posting. We also may or may not have some new features ready to show off for the blog. Just to let you know we’re planning on quite a bit of development changes to sPvP down the line. Stay tuned!” – Isn’t shooting yourself in the foot.
I don’t use Moa often. I find Mass Invisibility or even Time Warp tends to be more effective in long runs, due to the massive cooldown the ability suffers.
I also don’t like the ability thematically – we have a ton of manipulation skills illusion skills, but there just does not seem to be a justification for us suddenly having a transform skill in our kit. I would have preferred a ‘perfect clone’ ability, that either I produce an illusion that acts and hits like me (duplicating my dodge when I dodge, using my skills on targeted enemy when I use that targeted skill)
or! And this would be hilarious.
Turn my opponent into me, and make them vulnerable to ally damage for 10 seconds (meaning they can get targeted and attacked by their enemies.) They can either keep their kit and just have my appearance and name, or perhaps get MY kit and be forced to play a mesmer for a moment.
I have great patience, but little tolerance.
I’ll state politely that it would be nice that, in the absence of a full on blog post, we got a snippet or a progress report to keep us interested and sated until such a time when it is actually ready.
Just a suggestion from an anxious fan.
It’s the internet, people assume guilty until proven innocent – along with the absence of all the other social norms you would expect from a civilized culture and not a slobbering cesspool of angst ridden e-savages.
- Hold on, I have to smile for moment. That felt good.
Ahhhh~ Ok.
While people are not beyond hacking, keep in mind that most cases of suspected hacking are in fact people utilizing skills in ways you weren’t aware of before. It could have been two ambush traps in the same location from two different thieves, or someone wise to his positioning and cooldowns.
Had a ‘omg hacker!’ moment myself when I found myself getting moed twice in a row by what LOOKED like the same Mesmer, turned out there were two mesmers, identical models, playing ‘identical twins’ and rotating their Moa on me.
Frustrating as hell then. Hilarious now.
Dunno…when I switch from my necro and play around with my mesmer alt is like driving with training wheels, especially when you play an illusion build.
Here’s an issue I’d like to speak up on. NO other targeted skill mechanic in the game can be killed. If a Ranger is pegging arrows at you, you can’t shoot the arrows out of the sky. If someone has the inteligence to AoE your illusions your build suffers greatly.
“But mesmers can resummon them!”
Yeah, and a Ranger can reapply the bleeds you cleans off yourself as simple as shooting another arrow. What of it?
Killing the clones? Good idea! Just pray that he hasn’t specced that you get a sh* load of conditions when you kill them.
Pity those conditions you are worried about have a crap range. The clone pretty much has to be on top of you for those conditions to land, you do know that?
Also, the clones are not easy to kill if you do not play a hard hitting dps class. The clones even survive a full channel of a life transfer from a death shroud while their phantasm rip you a new one. The berserker hits for 2-3k…while an elite flesh golem does around 700-800.
You don’t play a mesmer, at all, do you? Elite Flesh Golum attacks consistently. A pBeserker does it’s attack ever 7 seconds unless traited. Also, if it’s hitting you for 2-3k, it’s hitting you several times in one swoop. The actual per hit damage is signifigantly lower.
Even if you are on the mesmer…heck, just use decoy, staff 2 or just moa your way to victory.
Necros cry the most about Moa because Necros are the biggest Moa target. Moa is a 3 minute cooldown skill. You can summon your flesh golem every minute.
The insane survivability combined with the too high damage for that kind of survivability is just mind-numbening . This plus the insane burst of some classes simply kills the fun in pvp – at least for me.
You’re bad and should feel bad. AoE condition necros are up there with Condition Rangers and AoE elementalists in one of the “Must Avoid” lists among Phantasem based Mesmers. A Mesmer’s survivability relies on their illusions, which you have the ability to absolutely destroy in your toolkit, along with Guardians which you probably complain about as well.
You’re giving bad feedback, when it’s within your ability to stomp the classes you’re concerned about. Thief and Warrior are your banes on Necro more than Mesmer. Mesmers are weak against you, which is why you’re getting Moaed so often, we want you OUT of the fight as much as possible.
Say… Discordian.
You woulden’t happen to have played FFXI years ago, would you?
Just keep in mind that the person who leave sacrifices all his glory/points in the fight for doing so, which really is the only material value of the fight.
The difference between win/loss point wise in hot join is negligible. So it’s more his loss than the loss of the players he left, especially if he forces an auto-balance.
I actually don’t mind the map all that much.
I have to wonder which classes are having problems underwater because all the one’s I’ve played and played against seem to do fairly well.
People just don’t seem to get the idea of playing on anything besides solid ground. Aion caught a lot of flack for their aerial combat as well.
The sharks can get really annoying though. To be honest I don’t mind their damage but they are fairly tanky is a well, so you either waste time trying to get rid of them, or they crowd you and make it impossible to have a fair underwater fight.
Game becomes a stomp for a 4 v 5 majority of the game.
Player down on team leaves to force autobalancing.
Playerbase cries to penalize the player leaving a grossly unbalanced game and actually force it to be balanced.
Yep, typical internet intelligence.
Let’s stress this again. It’s hot join. People join it for casual fun. When they’re not having fun, or something else comes up, they leave. The only reason why it’s a big deal is that there’s no outlet for more serious players aside from Tournament play.
I don’t like getting stuck with uneven teams either but complaining about hot join is not the right direction to critique it.
While I can understand and appreciate the personal preference, I cannot help but feel that stating such is similar to stating that you would like a minion based, heavy condition layering and Gothic style mage without the grotesque motif that comes with being a Necromancer.
It’s just seems to be a waste to make an entire function just because someone disagrees with the aesthetic style of a class. I’m not too keen on the butterfly motief myself but it fits the class well so I tolerate it.
You can easily adjust your weapons and utility skills any time out of combat to fit the particular needs of the team compositions.
For a Mesmer, many of our abilities come with built in stun-breaks. Our sealth, our Blink and Mirror Images are all stun-breaks. They’re good to have along because they have other utilities too.
Same for pretty much ever stun breaker in this game. “Shake it Off” removes debuffs from people surrounding you while breaking stun, etc.
So no, there’s more to stun-breakers than simply countering a burst combo, they’re utility in them too.
Forced Crit + Bonus Damage + Bonus Crit Damage adds up to a lot when you glass cannon a thief.
Is it crazy damage? Yes. But a thief built for that melts like butter. It’s not too much so much as it’s a crapshot by the thief.
Thieves built like this are starting to get stomped hard in PvP. Occasionally, they catch you off guard, but beyond that they’re starting to hurt their team above more team-centric Thief Builds.
You know, I see thieves more than any other of the classes. Mesmers are pretty high population too, I’ll admit. Guardians, they’re on Par with Warriors.
Problem is, the classes that are starting to stomp players now? Necromancers, Engineers, Rangers (You darn Condition Rangers, I swear!). Players are learning and adapting to the Meta already and rolling counter-builds to the popular ones.
Actually, my argument is that you’ve mistaken the core mechanic of a Mesmer, or rather it’s function as one.
You’ve also jumped points more than once in this discussion, so you’ll have to clarify which one you are essentially championing at this moment.
Put simply, the point I have answered was the point I directly quoted, so there should be no confusion.
If you are shattering ‘constantly’:
a, you are doing it wrong as you’re depleting resourecs, and shatters are not a resource you use constantly on cooldowns unless you’re in WvW and your illusions are about to die as soon as they are summoned anyways.
b, you’re not utilizing the tiers of deception that are the core mechanic of the class.
What shatter are, are a last resource for illusions that have effectively outlived their usefulness, or were produced to die in the first place. They also add a greater depth to it.
Now if you wish to regard earlier parts of your argument, we can bring them up individually. However I do beleive you are affixed to a name of a class that was essentially redesigned specifically for Guild Wars 2, not Guild Wars 1 continued. And attempting to compare the give and take mechanics of Mesmers to other Professions is somewhat mistaking the other utilities this class CAN use instantly.
It would be like if the mesmer had a move that teleported himself a short distance backwards and left a clone of himself in place. There is no other action in the game that resembles this move, so a player with knowledge of the mesmer will instantly recognize that the mesmer in front is a clone. So that brings up the question, why bother making a clone that resembles the mesmer so closely? Why not color it some other color? What purpose could this possibly serve other than creating noob traps?
Let’s get into this point action.
First, you have the deception that I, as a mesmer, was in the first position in the first place. You came after me, I blinked back. You thought I’d be reliably there when I wasn’t. I’ve done this several times to heartseeker thieves and it’s a continual pratice.
Second, I now have a clone the field. You refer to it as a minion, but anyone else coming into the fight might not immediately think it’s a clone, especially in the fray of the fight. You’ve now laid a trap for the unaware and possibly bought yourself a split second against the enemy.
Third, that clone now serves it’s function as a Staff Clone, meaning it’s applying winds of Chaos on the field, The more it’s ignored, the more it’s going to sit and stack debuffs on you. The deeper deception here was that you ignored it in the first place. It now becomes factor on the field, used at my disgression.
Even those who are not fooled by appearances can be fooled by the deeper level of a Mesmer’s function. That Hartseeker thief or 100b Warrior could walk headlong into being crippled or dazed, or even stunned if traited correctly.
I understand the wanted desire to deceive an opponent, but as someone else said, it does happen, at an amazing rate too.
For fighting enemies that are intelligent, however. There are other deceptions you can employ that are even more uncanny than simply producing an illusion of yourself, but by making that illusion a factor in the fight the enemy cannot afford to ignore.
If I can ask, do you see that from my perspective as someone who would like to be using illusions to manipulate, harm and deceive opponents, the idea of constantly shredding all illusions that would otherwise be confusing or debilitating my opponent (or supporting me or my allies) is less satisfying? That I accept that doing so could very well produce a small DPS boost or defensive window if timed and traited accordingly, but that it makes me feel like more of a minion management profession than an illusionist?
I’ve answered this question several times before, but perhaps a different phrasing is in order.
Where do you not see the concept of deception within Mesmer?
Allow me to provide examples.
Illusionary Leap causes a clone to leap into the enemy’s close range. If he connects, he is first crippled momentarily.
The enemy, provided we are talking humans here. Is now forced with three possibilities, choices you can make in a heartbeat.
The first and most frequently used solution is that the mesmer is preparing to swap places with this clone, mobilize him, and prepare for an incoming assault, likely blurred frenzy.
The second is a decoy, the mesmer instead sent the clone into close range to die, either through enemy confusion or AoE, death from the clone can further cripple on top of many other status effects. Or, he may choose to shatter the illusion for one of 4 different reasons. Either way, the clone is there to be sacrificed.
The third, the clone is there to live, hits from the clone might not deal any notable damage, but leaving it alive leaves the further two options open (The swap for 3 further seconds is still available) on top of the fact that now it’s inflicting vulnerability for every time it attacks.
One move, three routes of deception, that’s even IF the enemy has kept good track of you and knows where you are and what you are doing.
This process repeats for every clone, provided you use it correctly.
Further examples.
- Mirror Images on a bleed built greatsword user isn’t a shatter decoy, but is meant to stack ungodly amounts of bleed upon the enemy. Yet, they can just as easily be used to detonate a 2 second distortion in an emergancy. But killing them can also cause cripple unless you do so at a range. Turning to strike them however buys the mesmer time he may have needed to heal.
- A Immobalized Staff Mesmer suddenly phase shifts and decoys. Before Decoy wears off the Mesmer utilizes Deceptive evasion from a dodge and utalizes another decoy. Suddenly four identical staff users are pushing out winds of chaos and random status effects. And the Real Mesmer was wise enough to stand still when his decoy’s stealth wore off, but ‘slips’ and reveals himself. The thief things himself inteligent and moves into Heartseeker strike. But suddenly, all those clones rush in on him and the Mesmer himself explodes – whoops, that particular mesmer was a shatter build, including traiting himself to have the shatter effects as well. 4x Mind Wracks close in on an over anxious squishy target.
See where my point is at?
There are bad players who are deceived by the appearance of the clones and move to attack them, mistakenly seeing them as you(And in the heat of the battle, you definitely can get confused.)
And then there’s the smart ones who have to worry what you’re going to do with the clones even if they recognize you among them.
The deception factor of a Mesmer lies beyond simple bait and switch tactics. The idea that clones are only for the use of distracting someone’s eye is only the bare surface level. If you enjoy that surface level, it still does work against people, and it’s programmed to work on AI’s, so it still exists.
But it will only work on the confused. Once players get used to how a Mesmer works, you’re going to have to employ that deeper level of deception that Mesmer is, in my opinion, truly about. Not the fact that you’re producing look-alikes, but what you wind up doing with them. Shatters add to the depth of that larger deception.
(edited by Kalar Meadia.8439)
I was teasing when I said that, I noticed the cuts myself.
Mesmer is a profession where you die if you slip up. A lot of the claims people state here about Mesmers being ungodly powerful or OP just don’t hold any water. I’m noticing even some Mesmers are caught up into ideas that just arent true, like shatters being useless.
This video shows off just how and why shatters have a use as well, though it’s a bit of an extreme example.
I’m just helping spread a little bit of good use right now. Grated, I would like a video of some of his mistakes as well.
I swear, people don’t read.
TL;DL version. Shatters are useful in any situation in which the Clone or Illusion cannot utalize it’s full potential any longer.
OR
When the utility/power of the shatter in the immediate outweights the longterm use.
Shatters themselves are not counter-intuitive. Spamming shatters without discretion is counter intuitive. Shatters are not something that are designed for you to use every cool-down, and it is an error in judgment to believe that it should.
Point in case: If you’re not using shatter in WvW, you’re really gutting yourself. But if you’re fighting someone one, on one, you’d only shatter when it benefits you most. Like to save your life, insure a kill or a stomp.
This isn’t bad design, it’s intelligent design. It forces you to think about what you are doing. As opposed to herp-derping your face on the keyboard to win.
I take no credit for the video, just doing my honored part of spreading info.
Fameus has provided a 40 minute entertainment/educational video as to how a few Mesmer Builds can work well in WvW and how to use our abilities to their “Absolute Potential” (Not really, it’s just the name of the video.)
Given the lenght, the music, and the editing. I think this guy deserves your like and subscribe button, but that’s just my opinion.
Head on over and see for yourself
Oh, and Mesmer OP.
(edited by Moderator)
Just remember that if you nerf the Portal, Mesmer still has Swiftness and Blink to his advantage when moving to repair, and they’re on smaller cooldowns, and are far more difficult to counter, even with the longer warning.
And that’s totally fine with me.
Couldn’t be better.
Then that’ll be up to Anet to decide.
Again, I can see the reasons for keeping it, I can see the cause for complaint. I don’t beleive it is broken personally, because I compare travel times from gateway to full repair, and I don’t see a significant difference between a portal user and a swiftness user. I’d actually argue that Swiftness User has better routing as a Portal User has to travel a sub-optimal path to get to the repair kit, where a Swiftness user can bypass quite a bit of terrain issues.
Again, the complaint here is warning time. Portal users give no warning. As far as actual balance issue for travel time, there’s not enough of a difference to complain.
If you’d like, I can attempt a trial video run to do a comparison. Mesmer Portal vs Mesmer travel. I can’t promise that I know the optimal paths for both, however.
(edited by Kalar Meadia.8439)
I run a phantasem build with 3x Sword Pistol and I do decently with it.
As stated before, you run into trouble with ranged damage and the shared cooldowns on your 1-3, however, given the low native cooldowns on all of them, you don’t commonly run into cooldown problems for your mainhand. Alternatively, however, you can mainland a scepter for added range damage.
I wouldn’t call it ‘non optimal’ so much as highly specific. You’re doing a lot of hit-and run tactics with the build, only sticking to targets you’ve got a signifigant advantage over. When using that build, you’ll have to balance the decission between bonus critical damage and Bleed Damage from Sharper Images. I tend to error on one side and have been contemplating a more balanced approach for better performances
I recondite Greater Signets of Battle on offhand for increased damage when you swap, and for mainhand, we’ll, that’s a matter of choice. Superior Sigil of Fire gives me good spread damage and procs dependably, but for single targets Superior Sigil of Air is better. Blood also gives you a bit of survivability but as you’re running primarily melee, your choices may differ. I’ve heard that chilling abilities work well in increasing your defensive abilities, I’m running to test that myself tonight.
If you’re dealing with more people, I’d reccomend doing sword/pistol Greatsword, however. Gives you more versatility for pretty much the same tactics, at the cost of less single target damage from phantasems.
Shatters are fine. They make for good utility at the end of the build
Ever shatter Distortion to insure resurrecting an ally or stomping an enemy? Or to get out of what you know is going to be a massive AoE that you can’t dodge? Then you’re using Distortion correctly.
Your illusions are dead and you need a second to survive for your cooldowns, but all you’ve got is a clone? Summon it and fodder it for distraction, you’ve bought yourself a critical second.
Need an additional spike of damage to finish someone? Mind Wrack. That’s down? Cry of Frustration.
So let’s get into this a moment here, because people tend to forget it. We LOSE all of our illusions when their target is dead. Shatters give us a final utility to use in those instances as well. It does not matter if you find it counter-intuative during the course of a fight, they’re darn useful when finishing off an enemy, especially if other enemies are around them.
Shatters are an endgame for our illusions, they are the point in which you determin that they’re not worth trying to keep them alive and you need an additional something.
As I said in other threads, clones are used for more than just their distraction methods. They are clone fodder, they can be used as walking landmines of conditions, the skills that summon them on our weapon bar, often comes with other utilities, such as blocking an attack, teleporting us forward or back, crippling/immobalizing. Cloaking us.
Only two ability is really “Oh hay, I’ve got clones here!” and that’s Mirror Images, and The third hit in Secepter 1 combo which are potent for a shatter build or even to apply stats and bleeds from other locations.
Do not underestimate the strength of your clones and shatters. Play around, experiment, ask others. Plenty of Mesmers have gotten their milage out of clones, ask how they’re making theirs work.
Mesmer as a profession is more of a tactical class than a twich-skill class. A lot of premeditation and adaptability is needed to get the best out of everything we’ve got.
I producing clones in good enough quantities is so easy, then why do I feel like I’m locked into Duelling 20 and Clone on evade trait? Because in reality most weapons can only produce 1 clone 1 phantasm in one recharge cycle. Shatters are far far less useful if you don’t have Clone on evade.
Far less used, not far less useful. Clones still provide their alternative traits and effects, and you have 3 clones in utility on demand.
You’re also completely neglecting Scepters ridiculous clone production rate, which is an ideal for a PvE Shatter or Overwrite build (Works in PvP to a lesser degree, especially for entrenched opponents.)
Amazing rate? Have you seen the attack speed on those?
The only clones that are powerful are GS clones with their bleeds. And that’s only with high precision and with Sharper Images trait. Which leads back to core mesmer problem: It sucks if it isn’t traited.
Attack speed is irrelevant on Staff Clones, they hit twice for boons and debuffs. Crits apply bleed on top of the boons and debuffs. And unless you’re placing them right in the middle of enemy AoE, they’ll last long enough for the growing use of those to stack. Yes, Greatsword (And iDuelist) are better at stacking bleeds specificly but Bleed is not the end all skill here.
And again, you’re ignoring all the other utilities clone provides.
Illusionary Leap Cripples, then enables swap, which AoE binds.
Traits, which are mutually exclusive. That is On clone death trait don’t work if you shatter them. On shatter traits don’t work if you don’t shatter them.
Then there’s traits that give benefit for each alive illusion. How does that synergize with our class mechanic?
It provides a ‘kitten if you do, kitten if you don’t’ mechanic to clones. If you destory them close in, you get riddeled with conditions. IF you don’t we use them with shatters.
Also note, that ‘on clone death’ also counts for overwriting your clones.
We are most survivable because we posses multiple invul, block and invis abilities, not because of clones.
Seriously, every single mesmer build needs Clone on evade. Every single mesmer build needs shaper images. Every single mesmer build needs high crit chance. That’s horrible design.
You’re bad, and you should feel bad.
You do not need bleeds, you do not need high crit chance, you do not even need clone on evade. Does these builds help? Yes, but there are plenty very powerful Mesmer Builds that do not even involve the Dueling line at all. Do your bookwork before you start talking about a job you are continually displaying a lack of knowledge about.
And then there’s the fact that we don’t actually have a good condition build,
Wrong
that confusion sucks (and engineer can use it better)
That’s at least true, Confusion should do better damage for the stacks given on it.
we don’t have condition mainhand weapon
Wrong, twice. Scepter for confusion stacking (Needs buffing), Staff 2h for all others. Staff itself is praticly build for conditions.
torch sucks
Wrong again. Is it currently outshines by pistol? Yes. But that has to do with the fact that Pistol provides a stun on top of one of the 2 most damaging phantasems we have.
phantasms contribute so much damage you might as well call the class “summoner”
Then why talk about a class you hate? What’s your investment here. We summon illusions, some meant for deception/utility, others meant for damage and utility.
and except for Phantasmal Warden, all weapon phantasms are plain old, boringkitten damage dealers. Summoned DoTs.
The more I read this post, the more I realize I shouldn’t bother replying to it. It’s obvious that you don’t have half a clue what you’re talking about.
You acknowledge iWarden – left out
iBerserker – Cripple
iDisenchanter – buff/debuff removal (If you’re not using this in AC, you’re crippling your party.
iDefender – Damage Reduction
iMage – Boons/Debuffs
Thats 4 Phantasms you ignored simply because they were against your argument.
The multitude of useless traits is another whole can of worms. Everyone is using pretty much the same traits.
If they’re in sPvP, some traits are powerful to use, but in WvW and PvE it’s an entirely different story, unless you’re bland, go for self performance and ignore your usefulness to a party.
You need to do some real research on how this class’s actions and traits synergize with itself before you complain. Because you don’t know squat about builds it seems, and I’ve run out of energy trying to explain every single false statement you’ve made to justify your basless hatred for the class.
If it’s not what you want, move on. Don’t waste people’s time with misinformation and ignorance.
(edited by Kalar Meadia.8439)
Same thing that defeats stealth is the same thing that defeats Mesmers. AoEs.
I swear people complain more than they play. Players are already learning how to counter these problems guys.
Still, a lot of the player complaints are not valid complaints. They’re just gripes.
Wanting to nerf x y an z jobs because they’re popular in sPvP – when counter builds exist and are already increasing in use (Noticing a rise in condition/AoE builds lately to counter memsers and thieves. Makes me happy even if I am getting hard countered occasionally.)
Right now I’d say sPvP is in its infantcy. They’ve got a lot to fix before they build more. Though I personally would love to see how a traditional MOBA style objective would work in this game. Though it would likely be quicker given the fact that there likely wouldn’t be a progression system tied to it. (or maybe there could be.)
But could you imagine a MOBA style raid and destroy in an over the shoulder perspective? That could be interesting.
Anyways, no rush, as always.
There’s a slight difference between instantly repairing it, and running with swiftness.
It’s most likely going to face a nerf such as being unable to use the portal while holding the repair kit, something along those lines.
And while I’m not opposed to such measures, your logic still needs to be smacked down.
The repair of the Trebuchet isn’t instant for a Mesmer. If killed at their turret, or forced to flee before placing a portal (dangerous to lay down the portal as it’s asking to be pursued), a Mesmer must first travel back to the turret to lay down the portal before moving on to the repair kit.
Even with swiftness, that’s time lost – time non-mesmers are not aware of because there’s no notice that the Mesmer is laying down the portal.
Mesmers are the swiftest jobs at repair, but the margin of how quick they are isn’t huge. The diffence is that a mesmer can grab the repair kit and repair it before an enemy team has time to react to the warning. Without having to set a portal down, someone stacking out swiftness and other quickroute methods (Hello Shadowstep Theives.) can still repair the Trebuchet in about the same amount of time from the spawn point – the enemy team is just given more warning because a Mesmer Frontloads his travel time running to the trebuchet first before running for the kit.
Now, moving from the Trebuchet to full repair, Mesmer is faster, but they have reveal the fact that they are doing so in front of everyone meaning.
A. You can chase down and kill him before he manages to set the second portal.
B. You can opt not to destroy the Trebuchet until he’s wasted his portal.
C. You can camp either the repair kit or the Trebuchet (or both) to ambush the Mesmer as he goes on his repair route.
Just remember that if you nerf the Portal, Mesmer still has Swiftness and Blink to his advantage when moving to repair, and they’re on smaller cooldowns, and are far more difficult to counter, even with the longer warning.
The OP isn’t worth a full breakdown and analysis, so I’ll explain something simple that really cuts things to the chase.
The argument that the Clones are crippling function to the class in PvP because they are not convincing duplicates of the player is completely, and utterly invalidated when you understand that the Clones themselves serve alternate functions.
We will start with the most simple function they provide: Fodder for Shatters. Most clone abilities are easily produced, and then easily disposable to be used in the shatter skill. Between Traits, utility skills, and the clone production skills on weapon bars, a Mesmer has a continual resource for shatter fodder to use when the oppertunity for them presents itself. Using them properly is a major skill hurtle for mesmers, however, and even I don’t claim to have the full use of them down for my particular build. However it is a mistake to beleive clones are useless on this mechanic alone.
However, that is not the sole mechanic that makes clones useful either. Each individual type of clone, dictated by our main hand weapon, also serves an alternate function.
Sword Clones still inflict vulnerability on the opponent and maintain close range for shatters.
Staff Clones use Winds of Chaos and further boons and conditions on the battlefield, which can build up at an amazing rate.
Scepter and Greatsword Clones fight at range, which can apply continual bleeds through the Sharper Images trait. (Available to all clones, but the ranged factor allows this to be more consistent.) On top of allowing themselves to preserve longer for chatters.
Additionally, several traits allow us to gain additional functions to our clones when they are killed, overwritten, or are used in shatters, regardless if they are mistaken for our true selves.
We are considered one of the most survivable Professions in the game due to depth of the clone mechanic, and also the most deadly, depending entirely on how we build.
I can understand the idea of wanting to get more from more specific clones such as scepter and greatsword (have them also provide some sort of condition in their auto attacks perhaps) however, calling this class badly designed is poor observation, both of the mechanics, and the community, who are calling for us to be toned down because they have difficulty handling us in this early stage.
The Clone Mechanic is far from our weakest aspect of our Profession, and shoulden’t be a priority in adjustments, especially given that much of what we have is still bugged. Once the bugs are fixed and some of our other mechanics (such as Mantras) have been addressed, we can take another look at clones and how they are balance with our other existing mechanics. Right now, I just don’t see a reason for the insult to the class.
Having burst and bursting down is different.
If specced right this is good burst
Pistol offhand – Illusionary unload
Sword mainhand #3
Sword mainhand #2
then mind wrack
So 4—->3—>3—->2—->F1.Love, A Necromancer
No, that’s not good burst. He just shattered with 2 illusions., that’s poor play.
1. Pistol Offhand, Illusionary Unload.
2. Stun
3. Sword 3 (once)
4. Dodge
5. Sword 3 (second time)
6. Sword 2 + Mind Wrack
7. Decoy and Mirror Immages
8. Cry of Frustration.
That is a Mesmer’s burst down, note how many steps that is. It takes a lot of preparation and things have to land just right for the full damage on it. But boy does it burst.
However, agian, you sacrifice a lot be able to use the full of it. So I typically just use a phantasem build as it tends to be more versatile.
All I can say is get your timing right, or learn when to use your fears better.
You’re not going to get argument on me about Moa. I don’t use the skill, I don’t like the skill. You complain that it canceled (Not kills, you are morphed out of your necromancer state, your pets poof) your pets. Two which one can argue why the kitten is it possible for you to have 60K HP worth of pets anyways. Calling for a nerf on something that hard counters you may draw attention to things wrong about your own strategy.
But Moa is meant to be a total shutdown skill. Not “Ha ha, I’m inconsequential because I’m hiding behind all my minions!” Even Mesmers lose out on Moa when they get hit. Again, it’s 3 minutes. The cooldown is atrocious. And I personally believe it was just a generally poorly designed skill. You won’t see me shed tears if it goes the way of the dodo. (‘Heh, it’s funny cause they’re both birds’.)
Again, I don’t need to be told how dirty of a skill it is. It’s not as if Mesmers are immune to being hit by the skill. (I’ve had a few mesmers used it on me as a copout to losing an engagement. Worse, I’ve had two mesmers rotate it on me and me specifically in a match to totally shut me out of a game.) But even if it’s anti-fun, it does not decide a match on it’s own.
Anet can decide what to do about it. Until then, learn to beat it, or stop playing a build that makes you an obvious Moa target. Your pets are highly annoying . Moa being an offswitch to them can feel selfishly gratifying sometimes, so don’t blame them for using what they’ve got.
True.
The fact that you need special attention to beat some professions mean something is wrong with balancing.
Right.
There needs to be special attention to every class to beat them. That should be the standard. Not nerf a profession into oblivion because you think your class isn’t powerful (When in many respects, every class is.)
Balancing tweeks at this stage should be in the bug fixing and upwards motion, not nerfs. I’m of the opinion that Necro could use a couple stronger escape skills or faster retimers on their fears.
Other than that, you DO need to pay special attention to each class, in every fight. Nobody should go ignored and if they are, they’re likely doing something very wrong.
Oh, and as far as no tricks of the trade to shut down an Ele. They’re dead wrong and should stop basing their opinion on bad elementalists.
I haven’t checked Warrior boards specifically, but there’s a comprehensive list of Mesmer Bugs (Both detrimental and to Mesmer’s Advantage) in the Mesmer boards. Let me get back to you on the Warrior ones.
Edit, here they are:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Consolidated-List-Summary-of-Warrior-Bugs-to-be-updated
Talk is cheap, why don’t you message me in game, I bet you I can beat you 1v1 on any class that you play on my eles then we’ll see who the baddie is.
Sure, but what would that prove? That you’re a spiteful player that just because you can 1v1 someone that all of your arguments must be right? Grow up.
My point stands. You learn the classes you play against, most people believe they don’t have to, and that if they have to use half a brain to bother to win a battle, that suddenly the game is utterly broken and they need to destroy the core mechanics of a class so the game appeals to their personal playstyle, even if that playstyle is innately bad and flawed.
Beating me in 1 v 1, would just prove my point further: Skill is more important here than the game mechanics. So stop griping that a class appeals to a simpler playstyle and beat them.
Oh, and how’s your sunday looking? Win or loss I’d love to see an Elementalist that knows what they’re doing.