Guild Wars 2

nerf is part of the nature of the mmos.
and also nerfs followed by new tiers.

nothing new, except for gw2 is involving to the classical mmo prototype.

no. yours is just an opinion. nor good nor wrong.
on a par with who doesn’t like ascended and VP.
nobody wants to “correct” your idea.

what we’re trying to say is that we don’t like this compromise, because bought gw2 for some precise reasons. for what it used to be at launch.
and we think anet betrayed its manifesto.

then you fanboys came here to teach us why they didn’t betray it, why it’s right to love ascended, why we don’t need it and what a awesome hardcore gamers you are.

however, a waste of time for both the populations.
don’t trust anet. everything can change in a second at their convenience, regardless to manifestos, cdi or anything.

WRay.2391:

Now I don’t think game is moving the direction I like so I’m not going to buy it anymore. At least before CDI thread results. Easy as that.

when will we know about CDI? i mean something official, what they decided to do with gw2. not the usual philosophy about it…that soon proves false. (like manifesto)

MightyMicah.7451:

kiwituatara.6053:

I don’t know if everyone feels the same way I do about gw2 right now. For me, gw2 has become a ball of mess to the point that its become a little ridiculous:

EASY ways to make money: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHdeAaYz8gM

EASY dungeons: dungeons generally have become heavy zerkers only environment where everyones using the stacking “exploits”.

EASY pvp: AI minion builds (spirit ranger, minion mancer, pu mesmer) have become the new meta and the arenas littered with AI builds. There are also a few other OP builds that doesnt require AIs…

EASY wvw: Doesn’t matter how good your server is, more players + more coverage = win. Also, bring heavies only.

As for the open world pve, I get the idea of end-game ascended gear forcing players to go back to lower level zones for dragonite ores, but its turned into a waiting game: checking http://us.gw2stuff.com/ for world boss timers. The process of getting end-game gear is no longer fun, its become a time-gated waiting game; waiting for daily laurels, waiting for daily mats.

I understand that the devs are trying to fix some of these things right now (such as bringing down the zerker meta https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvE-Revising-the-DPS-Meta), but there have been some bad ideas that somehow managed to make its way into the game. Though, the game is still young and theres still time to fix a lot of loopholes and balance issues.

HOWEVER, if I could describe this game with one word at the moment, it would be frustrating.

As a rule of thumb, I always try to decide what my solution would be to a problem before I bring up a complaint, or issue. So, out of curiosity, what is it that you are looking for in this game? And why is it that this game hasn’t satisfied what it is you’re looking for? Just some questions to consider…

there is a virtual ton of posts about why some are not satisfied and what they are looking for.
like…ascended. gear vertical progression. too much grind.
it’s a lot of complaints, but also many many solutions.

but it doesn’t mean there is any possibility that anet will listen to it.
it’s not the way you talk on the forum that makes it more interesting for anet.
it’s money. it’s numbers.

bannex.1923:

I like this game. Its fun. For a 1 yr old mmo it has TONS of promise and longevity. Most ppl that don’t like this game are just uncomfortable with how different it is compared to more traditional MMOs.

no. it’s the opposite.
some people don’t like it no more because it’s becoming too similar to that traditional mmos.

Subdue.5479:

However, while A.Net may have wanted to develop a purely horizontal game, the fact of the matter is that the majority of the player base, and most likely those player that were more prone to spending on gems, wanted something to work towards.

yeah. you are right.
it’s what they did. they changed everything they talked about at launch to appeal a new population which appeared a better investment.
greed and economy. i’m sure they’re right. gw2 is money not philosophy and coherence.

still, i have my own interests and will never login again.
and i really do hope i wont be the only.

Subdue.5479:

Oh, I almost forgot to address your question. What is hardcore? Hardcore is spending 2-3 doing the various activities associated with achieving long term in game goals – high level fractals, ascended gear, legendaries, etc.

i think you’re looking in the wrong place for “hardcore”, as i don’t see any here.
if it’s no more THE casual game, it will never be THE hardcore game.
as they try to make happy so different kinds of players, no chance they could satisfy everybody in the same time.
but, you know. money is good, no matter whence it comes.
good luck

Vayne.8563:

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

Catering to as many groups as possible is the right thing to do, but there are some points at which a side needs to be taken instead of trying to partly satisfy both sides. There are plenty of aspects of the game that cater to some types of players, while having little or no impact on other types of players. Anet should be focusing on ways to cater to certain groups, without making changes that drive other groups away.

I think Fractals is a good example of this. It was a good addition for players that enjoy dungeons, as well as those that wanted more challenging content, and content that offered increasing levels of difficulty. The only real impact on someone that doesn’t like doing Fractals is having a considerably longer method of getting ascended rings. I would like to see a more viable non-Fractals way to get rings, but it’s not a major issue. That is also more of an issue with the reward system, not with Fractals themselves.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

I didn’t mean to say that everything Anet does to please various groups should be fair game. I’m simply saying that in and out itself, it’s not wrong to please various groups if you can.

The real issues, of course, come when pleasing one group completely disenfranchises another.

i think they already evaluated that risk….and made their choices.
too late.

Well it depends on the actual size of that group…or a comparison between the two groups.

We may never know..but I’m pretty sure Anet has a better idea of this than we do.

of course they have. but of course players have their good ideas too
and for some of that “at risk” population it’s too late.

Vayne.8563:

mrstealth.6701:

Vayne.8563:

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

Catering to as many groups as possible is the right thing to do, but there are some points at which a side needs to be taken instead of trying to partly satisfy both sides. There are plenty of aspects of the game that cater to some types of players, while having little or no impact on other types of players. Anet should be focusing on ways to cater to certain groups, without making changes that drive other groups away.

I think Fractals is a good example of this. It was a good addition for players that enjoy dungeons, as well as those that wanted more challenging content, and content that offered increasing levels of difficulty. The only real impact on someone that doesn’t like doing Fractals is having a considerably longer method of getting ascended rings. I would like to see a more viable non-Fractals way to get rings, but it’s not a major issue. That is also more of an issue with the reward system, not with Fractals themselves.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

I didn’t mean to say that everything Anet does to please various groups should be fair game. I’m simply saying that in and out itself, it’s not wrong to please various groups if you can.

The real issues, of course, come when pleasing one group completely disenfranchises another.

i think they already evaluated that risk….and made their choices.
too late.

Vayne.8563:

Many good threads will end up getting ignored because of the overuse of hyperbole. Why make a strong point easy to dismiss?

it’s not a matter of communication.
many good threads end up ignored because Anet wants to ignore it.
i think that the ideas are well explained…and explained a sufficient number of times.
simply, devs have their own ideas.

Subdue.5479:

The problem is that there exists this middle group that wants to feel hardcore, sitting around in BiS gear, but doesn’t actually want to be hardcore. These players play like casuals, a dungeon here, a dungeon there, some mapping, not really doing anything focused or hardcore with their time, but they want to be dressed in the best gear. Mind you, the gear they’re currently in most likely far more than enough for any content they’ve done or ever think of doing. That’s not the point for them though. The point for them is that they no longer feel hardcore, even though they never really were hardcore.

the problem is that there exist some people that forget that if they want to feel hardcore, there is WoW.
and there yeah, that’s kitten. grind your soul out and get that BiS gear to feel your glory….for a pair of weeks before the next tier is rolled out.
it’s you that want to have an easy BiS…if compared to other games…but slighty too difficult/time wasting for the other standard players, to show your possible kittenitude….in a battle of the have-nots.

and there exist(ed) also a gw2 game that forgot who bought it and why.
why sold out so many copies.
the only things that divide it from a big fat fail. the casuals who want to have that best equip.
let it continue down the road of new tiers.
there we’ll never be a real competition with really hardcore-grindy games.
a foot in both camps…won’t last long.

have fun…until there is fun.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Do you honestly think that it is possible to please everyone all of the time ? 100% of the people 100% of the time ? Can you name a single endeavor where this has happened ?

Of course I don’t. But I don’t believe in not trying to please the bulk of the population and the population is pretty varied in their tastes, generally speaking.

In other words, I don’t think Anet is doing the wrong thing by catering to different tastes, whether or not someone is dissatisfied by a single aspect. In fact, with a game with any significant overhead, I think they need to please as many people as possible. Narrowing your focus to one group isn’t going to do it.

what enrages me the most is that it’s their main audience (that of gw1 and manifesto) that now is not pleased.
they already got our money, and now chase a new kind of population that i’m sure brings them more money than the older.

good for anet. good for ppl that like this way.
bad for us.

Vayne.8563:

Well Kevan, if you’re doing what you’d normally do and get all that mats you need from that, you’d not consider it a grind. So grind does become a matter of opinion.

I got ascended weapons and didn’t really grind at all. I have four of them, with no actual grinding. Naturally I could have had them faster, but I chose not to grind.

i used to play as I’d have played without ascended.
and I didn’t get any ascended. nor sufficient mats (and laurels,) required to craft them.
and also if i had that mats, i will never increase crafting skills to 500…
so, also if you don’t call it a grind, for me it would be a grind.

and, what is more…i think that ALSO for those who don’t feel it boring, it’s hard not to call it a grind.

Evelynddra.9265:

It’s totally not for everyone which I get. It’s just people come screaming grind, but have no idea what it is. It’s now some watered-down version basically used to say “I don’t like doing this”. Not liking something is perfectly valid, but call it what it is.

well, evelynddra…
it is BOTH a “don’t like it” AND a “it’s a grind”.
i call it for what it is. GRIND.

and i don’t like it BECAUSE it’s a grind…and a grind for better gear.
i thought it was extremely clear from the OP.

nothing wrong. de gustibus…

still the fact that:

ascended crafting is so easy for a normal, regular player. if you are extremely casual, then you can go for exotics. they don’t even make noticable difference for that gold.

is false.

and also

if you are extremely casual, then you can go for exotics. they don’t even make noticable difference for that gold.

is false, as a difference exists.

Umut.5471:

ascended crafting is so easy for a normal, regular player. if you are extremely casual, then you can go for exotics. they don’t even make noticable difference for that gold.

aaaaand.
no. it’s false.
ascended is not EASY. maybe it’s easy for you, if your threshold for casual player lies at 1000-1200h….and/or gemstore.

Lord Kuru.3685:

If you think the Ascended grind is bad, just wait for the inevitable infusion slot grind. There’s no way Anet can resist increasing the infusion slot stats more and more. So even if you think the gear is not worth it at the moment (false, by the way), it will be.

So I’d recommend you get on the grind train now or be left behind.

or change game, as i’m not sure that it’s worth catching that train….that is going nowhere.

OP, give a look to the others post in this same section.
it’s been discussed in CDI about horizontal progression.,…3-4 posts about angry ppl like me that hate grind and farm and ascended.

i hope that this grind (at least that for BiS) will stop soon.
but we have no clues it will ever do it.

but as it has become a fight fire with fire…
i can answer that also gear grind compulsion (that thousand hours in few months) is a illness. and indeed it is.
as it’s stated in the DSM from APA.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders) “internet gaming addiction disorder”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t want the message to be “shut up, we don’t want you” or “we’re going to ignore you til you go away”.
I want the message to be “then help us try to get to where you think the game should be”.

agree. i think that both parts struggling to convince the other to “correctly interpret” manifesto is a waste of time, and no result is coming out from this post.
(it’s the reason i opened the other post about VP, in fact)

the only solution is to work together to find a game progression that satisfies both parts.
and IMHO, it could be the horizontal one.

because there is NO WAY that a part of people (that part of it that bought the game because of manifesto) will ever accept another BiS tier to grind.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

RPGs, the “grind threshold” for me is “out of the X hours I have gameplay wise, how much of that was spent leveling up or gearing up to have the bare minimum to pass the next boss/dungeon/area?”.

for me, grind is the time spent doing the same thing repetitively for…anything.
1000teq….or 50000silks…..or 1000000000000 dragonite ores.
or 500cof for the skins.
that repetitivity because of lack of new content, just a time/money sink.

i do not condemn it (not totally). i’m sure that creating so much gaming contents to keep people thousand hours always happy with brand new stuff is impossible.
a great story like that in bioshock infinite has a longevity of some dozen hours, not more…and needed years to be developed.

what i condemn is that cheap, sad, tricky way of doing it with gear treadmill/ “power” progression….making people a mindless zombie horde.

if anet wants to make people login for thousand hours, doing something to “distinguish among the masses of casuals”, just make it cosmetic. living story you’re discussing elsewhere. legendary we already have. new skins. elite mounts. elite pets for hunters.
new skills. reputation to get new factions’ skins.
a massive pair of boobs for your norn girl. a kittenty animation for a female elf.
a hot love story with a npc. (i’m horny tonight xD)
what you want.
anything is better than just AR and more stats. literally anything.

there are two ways:
-the painful one is play thousands hours, sell mats greens and exo and grind events-bosses like there’s no tomorrow
-the other painful one is gem store.
-and the darkside painful one is gold sellers (that I hope nobody here encourages.)

anyways, pain is the common factor

“… but we absolutely are going to do sweeping new features that you would traditionally only get in expansions – large regions, content and progression additions to your characters in the form of growth and professions and races. Those are all things that you will see in the lifespan of Guild Wars 2.”

but…uhm.
is it….that kitten ed word?
how did you translate it?

Amiron.1067:

ANet needs to produce higher quality content if they want to keep me around and spending money on gems.

they need to produce content
because for now i see grind and tiers. not contents

240hrs total.
and i think they won’t increase as of now…

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ASB.4295:

Kevan.8912:

why am i so scared of “growth” and “tradition” in the same phrase?
oxymoron…

Well, tradition in this sense doesn’t refer to the prequel but rather to traditional MMO concepts. Moving goalpost stat grind, to be precise.

Or to include more . . .

Expansions indicate there is more content with a certain scope in mind. Gone are the days when Meridian 59’s “Vale of Sorrow” (one region, one node, nothing else) or Baldur’s Gate Tales from the Sword Coast were a viable option to sell. It’s more akin to how Ultima Online or Everquest continuously added big bundles of open area . . . and if it didn’t, people were lackluster about them. So if they say “expansion” and we’re not given something on par with Cantha or Elona but instead overhauls and additions which sum up to roughly the same amount of data size? People will riot.

Then there’s the concept of Expansions for MMOs including increases to level caps or other mechanics, somewhat regularly. Considering this is a nervous fear held by a lot of the people playing GW2 (increasing the level cap, new gear tier) . . . “Expansion” is by nature going to include assumptions it’s coming instead of nebulously “not being ruled out”.

this is more concepts…but maybe anet intended just more grind.
I hope we’re wrong

Cactus.2710:

Ision.3207:

In that interview they quote Johnason as saying, “Some of our players believe that because we are doing this Living World seasons, and these features or these big feature-builds, that it means that the features you would traditionally get in an expansion, or the content you would traditionally get in an expansion, is not something that will get added to Guild Wars 2. And that is not true at all.”

Oh dear … features and content you would traditionally get in an expansion? Let me see, what am I used to seeing in mmo expansions? Hmmm … well there is usually a new dungeon or 2, and there is usually a new zone or 2, sometimes a new profession, and almost always new skills for each class …

Let’s see, anything else I’m traditionally used to used to seeing in an mmo expansion? Oh yeah, I almost forgot … traditionally, mmo expansions usually include 5 to 10 new levels to grind, and traditionally they also include a new higher-stat tier of gear to grind …

Of course it’s all just speculation, and we really don’t know. But later on Johanson gives us a small hint, when he says, “… but we absolutely are going to do sweeping new features that you would traditionally only get in expansions – large regions, content and progression additions to your characters in the form of growth and professions and races. Those are all things that you will see in the lifespan of Guild Wars 2.”

I understand what progression additions in the form of professions and races is, but the progression additions in the form of “growth” … now that one is a bit ambiguous to me?

Oh well, I’m sure it will all turn out very well, and the changes will be consistent with the tradition of the GW franchise.

Pretty certain you’re right about the consistent part.

why am i so scared of “growth” and “tradition” in the same phrase?
oxymoron…

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

So what’s your solution? This game launched with almost no grind and people left in droves. They left much faster than Anet expected them to (at least that seems to be the case).

Everyone wants to offer commentary, but no one proposes a solution.

Like most MMO’s, GW2 launched before it was ready. There’s only one solution for that. However, some people did not have the patience to wait for ANet to get around to finishing stuff. PvE was in a much better state than either PvP or WvW, and those modes were supposed to constitute a big part of endgame. Given the many bugs in PvE at launch, that says a lot about how unfinished the other two game modes were. Features that probably should have been in PvP at launch (multiple game modes, ladders, etc.) are now being talked up as being added in 2014, more than 16 months after launch.

Adding VP was a quick and dirty fix, requiring relatively little in the way of developer resources. The only cosmetics needed initially were the back-pieces, which afaik don’t need the many iterations that armor requires for character race/sex. Weapons appeared months later, armor over a year later. The only calculations required involved determining the relation between Agony and resistance, and how much of a stat increase to provide (and it looks like that got scaled back later, because weapons and armor provide smaller percentage gains than trinkets). Ascended was for buying time.

And, yeah, no MMO is going to be grind-free, at least until developers can program things with the speed of thought.

i do hope that ascended was really a “quick fix”, and the only fix of this kind.
but there is no clue if it’ll be the last…
my personal solution is uninstall, and wait if anything occurs to convince me to change idea. it’s a temporary measure, that could be reverted or become permanent.

and + 1,
some grind is almost necessary atm to keep people logged in, because every content need time. but not so much grind and so boring as anet asks us to do. and not for new gear.

Raine.1394:

I believe Anet should have at least attempted to educate the player base before succumbing to inferior ideas around character progression.

i think “superior/inferior” ideas is not correct.

of course, that of horizontal progression is the most desireable solution, requires a lot of work but can provide a better game experience.
and yes, vertical gear progression is a “apparent” growth of the character, because it’ s necessary just to be on a par with more powerful mobs.
and what is more, no VP was the very reason we’ve bought gw2 instead of any other clone mmo.

anet knows what has done, it was conscient, and sacrificed everything good there was in gw2. knows our complaints.
a reason or another, every choice has a price.
horiz progression maybe the hardest to realize, but relatively painless for everyone.
the “ascended” way? more grinders. less casuals. someone will leave the game.
but face the reality: if starts a treadmill, it’ll be a hard fight with wow and co.

it’s just a matter of time to make another step and see in what direction it is.
and i fear, not in the right one.

the smiley means that it’s just my opinion, and i m wasting time…and that i know it.
and that no complaint, also if coming from the whole community (i m not saying it IS, only a part), would change the game.
and they knew it but did the same, and it kittenes me off

so much meaning in a smile

where s the fun? i tried to call him but gw2state answered he was still at grind..work

i think that anet can make both sides happy only through horizontal prog.

because, as i m a casual and forever will be, there is no way that i ll ever accept another grindy tier of BiS or infusions;)
idem the other side, need something to grind hard for. this little slow releases of boring ascended is not so good.

if they choose the way of VP, will lose AT LEAST a side, if not both.
hope in the CDI

they tried a tricky compromise.
long grind, small stat increase.
but it revealed as a betrayal for no-new-bis casuals, too much effort for little reward for wow_boys.
and made both of them kitten off.

and yeah, maybe part of the population would have quitted anyways, ascended or not, because need steepy “powaaaa” treadmill.

in all cases….anet is wrong
my 2 cent

Vayne.8563:

Everyone wants to offer commentary, but no one proposes a solution.

there’s MASSIVE horizontal progression thread, which should keep devs busy for years.
and also in this “commentary” thread, many people proposed:
- no more tiers or infusions
- “democratic” methods to get ascended we already have, so that anyone can do what likes more and still get everything needed for the game
ie. good mats from the early levels, so that leveling alts is not a waste of time until 80.
ie. make crafting a choice, not obligatory.
- reduce the grind “feeling”, making everything you do ingame equally useful in progressing your char (just like exp, so that you res a npc or do hearts or do an event, nothing is a waste of time)
- cosmetic items, such as skins-mounts (etc, it’s discussed about elsewhere) instead of more powerful gear

i think there’s so much on anet’s table, that insisting on THAT kitten kind of gear VP is a huge demostration of anet’s greed and unwillingness.

Dindin.2378:

- feeling sad that there is nothing desirable to farm for (this is my main issue with the game). would love to farm for an epic mount to drop, a weapon item that only 200 people in game have, a very rare backpiece etc.

i really wonder, if those who don’t want to farm hate ascended and new BiS, and those who do like farm still don’t like ascended that much…(and seemingly also ask for horizontal upgrades)
why are ascended still here? O.o
good job anet

Vayne.8563:

This is just a bad idea. Removing grind altogether will kill any MMO.

The math is pretty simple. You can make X number of hours of content for any MMO. That’s it. That’s what you can make. If you program for five years, maybe that’s 100 hours of content…if that. (Yes I’m making these numbers up but the point is valid anyway).

People expect to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours on an MMO. It’s the expectation. If you don’t give people something to do, even if it is busy work, no one will stay in the game…and nothing dies faster than an MMO that no one is playing.
Guild Wars 1 had grind too….it wasn’t required grind, but a lot of the titles were grindy. People stayed to do those titles and for other reasons as well. Without the people who did that, you’d end up with a whole lot less people playing.
Less people mean less funding.
So, a themepark MMO (which this is), can’t create infinite content, and as a result goes under if all grind is removed.
Which means companies stop investing millions of dollars in MMOs, because why put that kind of money into a project and take that kind of risk if no one is going to play it.
I was here that first November. I know how many people stopped playing BEFORE ascended gear and grind were introduced.
The grind hasn’t lower the number of players in this game…it’s increased it.

it was just an instigation, as there is no chance for now that grind could be totally bypassed (although i do dislike it in any form it comes.)

but the fact that people expect to stay online for thousands hours it’s not an excuse for devs, that use grind as a simple means when every other gameplay feature fails to satisfy people for more than some hours.
some grind is one thing, intensive grind as the main trick to stick ppl to the game is another.

and this difference (less grind, only cosmetic grind) is the only one thing (or at least one of the most important) that can really make gw2 different for players.
if gw2 wants to follow that way, there is nothing that makes it better than many other games we already know. just another korean-style game, with less rewards.
anet should think that what made it sell so much (not ppl stay many hours. just sell) is that same manifesto they’re actually ignoring.

about the number of players. i’m not so sure you can directly infer that grind for ascended has increased it. it’s simplistic.
what we know that some ppl asked for ascended, and some others quited/complained about it when was introduced.
and that asc. it’s not what a large part of audience expected when bought the game at launch.
i’m sure that anet needs both of these ppl to “make numbers”, because also pro grinders could feel betrayed by bland gear upgrades.

satisfying ppl with opposite tastes about game, casuals and “farmers”, is really possible?
my humble opinion is that horiz. progression can work for both.
but VP is a cul-de-sac.
so…choose wisely

chemiclord.3978:

Vayne.8563:

People played Guild Wars 1 for years, without any stat progression on armor or weapons. What they got instead was new and better skills. And you could level up some skills, so they did more. That to me was far more fun than getting better gear.

Honestly, I fail to see the difference, really.

They’re BOTH tedium, whether you’re grinding reputation to improve your skills or grinding to get materials to craft gear. I also find it rather silly that players think one is awesome (probably because of the novelty) and the other is a soul-crushing chore.

Vertical progression is vertical progression, no matter what pretty wrapping paper you put it in.

both boring, but VP through new better gear is a direct “power” increase.
skills and rep is a more “oblique” way, but i’m sure it’s long and grindy too.

so would be better to remove grind at all.
grind is only a trick to make people play, without admitting a lack of contents.
and VP is the most effective way to force ppl to grind,
while cosmetic items , for the typical mmo gamer, is not sufficiently rewarding to deserve 10000000hrs of repetitive tasks

WRay.2391:

spiritus.7983:

Kevan.8912:

vertical progression binds me to a sense of inferiority, grind like a necessary work to be done for a mandatory aim.

tell this to “dedicated players”

I believe you meant “dedicated grinders” here ? If it’s a gameplay then I will definitely leave this game. For now I’m just hanging here waiting for results of CDI thread.

so am I.
the only reason to write here is waiting for any concrete news about the future of the game. (and the other is that there isnt an mmo i like atm, just wait for Q1\2 2014)
although, I wonder if there’ll be any and if these news will be somewhat trustworthy.

Sir Isaac The Great.5341:

Been doing the same dungeons since start….hardly anything added in that is new or fun. Everything I do like only lasts a short bit. They seem to have went in a direction I don’t care for…gear grind, horrible living story, nerf this nerf that…etc etc

the strange thing about gw2, IMHO, is that, although many people complain about what anet didn’t do (lack of new content, boredom, stalemate…and of course i agree with it), a lot of others do complain about what anet did.
i’d like more a static gw2 with just marginal changes, than a “dynamic” gw2 as anet seems to intend it (grindy new high stats tiers).
so strange

Chris Whiteside.6102:

‘The more GW2 can do to make itself utilize that world and expand the content in there, the more people are going to be happy with horizontal progression and new experiences, rather than chasing higher stat gear.’

hi Chris.

i really don’t know what you equipe has in mind for the future of this game, but please, think also about that huge part of players who, as stated from many of us and in many threads, do like horizontal progression as it was intended in the very beginning, and not what the game has recently become.
i’m sure that almost ANY horizontal progression (nearly everything is suggested here) would be well accepted. yes, bugged or not innovative features could cause the usual whine threads…but it would be more “fix-it!”posts than “i’m-ragequitting” posts.
because this kind of BiS gear is really really like a betrayal for some customers.
i really don’t know if arenanet and devs already “recognized” this gamers’ feelings, so i dared to post here it directly, as you’re actively posting on this thread.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kevan.8912:

Raine.1394:

In WoW, when I started playing, my HP was around 6k – 10k. Now it’s ~500k. The game still plays the same. Mobs take just as long to kill as they used to and I die just as quickly. The effects of VP haven’t actually taken that game anywhere; they have just forced a gaming population to ride a treadmill over time by artificially making current gear useless and forcing them to hop on the treadmill periodically.

That’s what VP is and it’s the selfish position to want to force it on a population that bought a game that was advertized as being “not about grinding gear”.

+1…
still, it’s likely that VP won’t stop…because also if it’s the last tier, there will be the infusion treadmill.
what to say…maybe it’s too late for us

They were talking about World of Warcraft, not Guild Wars 2 with that treadmill of VP. There’s currently no treadmill, just the one step and the potential for the next.

I have my doubts that step is going to happen as rapidly or as severely as people want to suggest too.

i know, i used to play WoW
and i know, for now it’s just one kitten grindy tier and not a treadmill. but we DO know (or, it’s VERY likely) there will be, at least with infusions.
may be it’s not rapid or “severe”, but it wouldn’t solve the problem

Raine.1394:

In WoW, when I started playing, my HP was around 6k – 10k. Now it’s ~500k. The game still plays the same. Mobs take just as long to kill as they used to and I die just as quickly. The effects of VP haven’t actually taken that game anywhere; they have just forced a gaming population to ride a treadmill over time by artificially making current gear useless and forcing them to hop on the treadmill periodically.

That’s what VP is and it’s the selfish position to want to force it on a population that bought a game that was advertized as being “not about grinding gear”.

+1…
still, it’s likely that VP won’t stop…because also if it’s the last tier, there will be the infusion treadmill.
what to say…maybe it’s too late for us

+1 kuru and claudius
won’t repeat anything already said in other threads, but a grindy game quite different than expected.

+1 locuz too.
the story is a bit too “simple”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Next time you want to throw stones at people over this issue, I suggest you look at which side actually got their way and which side didn’t.

I still don’t have Ascalon back in the hands of mankind. For that reason alone, asura killing will continue until it happens. If I run out of asura, I’ll start on the quaggans and skritt.

Now on a more serious note…

I just put trust Arenanet realizes how badly this whole thing about Ascended (right now the only vertical progression anyone actually cares about) was received and cool it off. Given the tone of the CDI thread? I’d say they’re aware and really trying to figure out some way of avoiding a solely vertical progression in the future.

i’d like to think that anet is trying to fix this ascended thing…making us acquire in an easier way or through different activities. (and of course, making ascended last BiS tier.)
but i m not so sure.

@indigo: +1

a majestic +1
it’s a good traditional mmo, with some differences…but not huge differences.
of course, not that mmo killer.

really don’t know.
gandara is in green in the last 3weeks

grindy. and too similar to other mmos.

Elementalist is IMHO more difficult to level up and play.
downed every 10seconds
needs a lot of thinking and strategy

necro is easier because of minions and less weapons/skill to learn and use.

Shakkara.2641:

Exactly. The devs must get back on track and adhere to the manifesto and the things Colin promised us before release.

i don’t want to discuss again about manifesto. it’s a nightmare.
((@shakkara, i also interpreted manifesto as you did it.
and it’s not the way to solve anything
demonstrating that they didn’t keep their word because manifesto said xxxxxx doesn’t delete ascended!))

still, what i mean in this post is to explain my (our!) feeling about what gw2 has become. and collect many gamers’ opinion so that anet is aware of it.
i don’t really think that they’ll listen to us.
but it’s our right as customers to judge their work.

many of us hate what gw2 is at the moment.
hate to max out crafting, hate the long hours required to have ascended.
hate the feeling of being behind and that “must work to reach the other people”
and it’s not important if that difference is evident or not. it exists, and it s sufficient.

so, once again, please. no moralizers. no preachers.
just respect our dislike.

Xenon.4537:

If you feel obligated to grind for ascended armor and cannot play the game happily until you have every character slot filled with that pinkish-magenta text, I pitty you. People keep banging this “I feel obligated to get it” drum over and over. This leads me to believe it has more to do with your “psychological conditioning” than with Guild Wars itself. You’ve probably been trained by every game since 1985 to not stop until you have all the best items possible. The original idea of fun has been erased from your mind and replaced with a hunger that cannot be sated.

I shall posit an analogy for your anger. It is akin to the reaction of a young child learning to read. He becomes frustrated and says “books are dumb!” But books are not really dumb. The child simply doesn’t have the understanding, and the most basic primitive human reaction to a problem is to attack it or run away from it.

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

i’m sorry as english is not my language, and i won’t be so elegant.
this is the usual demonstration that “ascended are not that bad”, and you also show a paternalistic compassion to underline your superiority.
you can explain the things in a more polished way, but things remain as they are.

there is not any conditioning here. it’s the exact opposite.

i play for the game itself. for what a game can offer. plot, graphics, gameplay.
so, i’m mainly a single-player-games player (sorry for the riddle).
skyrim. bioshock. oblivion. mass effect. far cry. crysis. half life. just to give you an idea.

i tried some mmo’s for a “cultural” (to try something that everybody is talking about) and “social” reason (to join friends who already liked the genre)
many mmo’s, same end: I quitted as finished exploring-leveling, because i hate any form of increasing numbers and new gear.
diablo 3. wow. path of exile. lotro
everything i tried, ended in…grinding/farming.
every guild i tried was populated by psychologically disturbed people who wasted their lives following best dps, best tier, best achievement…you know. dozen hrs every week.
the common internet gaming addiction.

until a friend of mine linked that kitten ed manifesto.
(you’ll say again: you misunderstood it. anet did it right…etc etc etc.
ok. what do you want. it’s not important here. don’t bother me about it again )
i liked the idea that there was no grinding at all (at least, not for BiS, that i acquired within hours from hitting 80), the fact everything you did gave you exp, so leveling was not a grind. and of course, no real money auction house or payto win, no botters.
“if you don’t like mmo…” we’ll know these words.
just pay the game once, and keep playing.
so i started gw2..leveled till 80 a pair of characters, did part of the storyline, did some dungeons, some world events.
i mainly explored maps, and did events as they found them in the world, coop-ing with everybody i met. just for my love for exploration.
followed living story when i had time.
everything was fine for me.

until the introduction of ascended.
and here we are.
that sense of inferiority. of betrayal if you want.
of course not that childish conditioning you blabla about.

and…if you want to find such conditioning, i think you can see it in the people (wow kids and so on) who asked for it in a game that was supposed to have mainly a horizontal growth.
and when anet satisfied their requests just to have their money..it’s my duty to adapt to it?
this is madness.
nobody said ascended is dumb.
it very smart indeed. it’s a trick to have a pause from horizontal progression while still keeping “carrot boys” online. i just call it with its true name.

and you miss one important thing.
here in italy, we say that “customer is always right”.
it’s not my obligation to bow to what gw2 has become.
but it’s my right to say what i dislike of a product i bought, give a feedback, and quit that game if it ‘s not what i expected from it, or if it revealed different/changed after i bought it. that’s what we’re doing here and now.

again, as i previously said.
no professors here. i’m adult, i know what i want and what i like.
so, @Xenon: do you like VP and ascended?
if you don’t, why?

Master of Timespace.2548:

This is a theme park mmo whose primary source of income is item mall. There will always be design choices that are unfavorable to the average player.

well….no. “always” is not correct. “atm, and the most part of mmo” is good.
but, if you want to say that it’s a statistical curve and not all the ppl of a population are the same and will have the same things, spend same money, spend same time ingame, still these “design choices unfavorable to average players” could be purely cosmetic.

and these cosmetics or any other things can still be a source of income.

ex: i (and many i used to play with) would buy some gems for a cool mini. or a hairstyle. or a race. or a class. or anything else. (i’ve already bought gems in the past, no problems about it. i felt free in my choice. it was a form of “thank you, anet”)
sure, many people wouldn’t spend money except for “pay to win” (mats for crafting, boosts, better gear directly or indirectly acquired. only things that have a visible impact in game, or make the game easier or quicker in acquiring something )

anet had to do a choice. i think they indeed chose the second population…but are still trying to keep a foot in both camps. (or call it a compromise)
but IMHO it won’t last long.

Shakkara.2641:

Vayne.8563:

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

Well yes, but that’s why we need sandbox MMOs, or themepark-sandbox hybrids (even better). Games that allow the players to create the content or allow for a lot of emergent gameplay.

it’s a good “study” of the mmo situation.
maybe sandbox games appeal to a very little population, or need open world pvp, and all of this is difficult to apply to famous trademarks,
but just taking some elements from them and put in mmos to improve them is not that bad.
it’s a lot of work, too.

sadly, anet has already taken a way, that usual (or almost usual, because, as you say, there is only fractals locked because of AR tiers, for now – and again that sense of “behind the others” still remains) gear vertical progression.

i didn’t understand much from the OP
point 3 has some sense, but i can’t find any link with the remaining points.