Guild Wars 2

I think that might actually be easier to abuse. Your system just begs for someone to akitten a tower. At least with what I proposed, you have other players “policing” it. Plus, if a tower gets attacked, it’s not the scout not doing its job. That’s why the scout is there, so when an attack happens, he can rally forces. When an attack happens is when everyone is glad that some shmuck was good enough to stand around the garrison playing Sonic CD on their mobile phone and refreshing siege.

Gehenna.3625:

The funny thing is that leveling is done via a quest line and yes, levels. Gear progression after max level is the same thing actually, just with gear alone and no longer with levels.

Think about it, you don’t do level 50 zones when you are level 10. You wouldn’t survive. That’s totally wrong and upsetting isn’t it?

Wait, it’s not upsetting?

So while leveling you don’t get upset that you need higher levels and better gear for content, but once you’re max level you do get upset about needing gear for certain content?

Interesting.

That’s just trolly and doesn’t show much insight into the situation. First off, I’m sure the number of people ticked off about ascended gear is roughly equal to the number of people who would be/will be ticked off at the inevitable announcement of a level cap increase.

We all knew there would be progression from 1-80, that was never in doubt. While I would argue it’s not absolutely necessary for the initial progression, (see EQNext) completely removing levels would indeed be a radical step for a game still claiming to be an MMORPG, and it’s not a step ANet were even trying to make. They did many things to devalue the leveling process, such as leveling scaling. Ok, just level scaling, but it is in many parts of the game, and in many cases implemented well.

The difference between progressing to level cap and progressing past the level cap, (via gear, just as you pointed out) is now the goalposts are being moved. Now granted, many MMO’s move their goalposts quite regularly. That’s not a bad thing, that’s what many games are built on, and there’s nothing wrong with that. The thing that rustles so many jimmies around here is that GW2 was marketed as though we were going to be free from that. While it’s true that everyone needs goals, not everyone needs the persistent, mandatory goal of getting better gear shoved down their throat. My goals, for example, are generally: increase my point per tick, take that tower, play sPvP to make ME a better player (and not to make my character a better character). This is the game that it seemed I was getting. If YOU need stat progression, that’s fine. Go play one of those games where that’s the emphasis.

ANet capitulating to the uninformed is only part of the problem. The other part is the uninformed.

I don’t think it would be forced on anyone. It would be a commander’s prerogative to use it. I would argue that likey the same small group of people willing to do it would still be the same folks after this system would be implemented, it’s just that they’d get something for it. As it stands, most of the folks who scout are folks who wouldn’t expect to be rewarded, and if anyone started saying, “Yeah, I’ll watch garri for 2 hours for 1g, they’d be laughed right off the map.” I just know the problem of rewarding passive, defensive activities in WvW is hard, because you open up the gates to absue by afkers. I figure something like this could work around that.

I have an idea for rewarding your scouts. In this sense, I mean the folks who voluntarily stand in towers and keeps doing nothing more than keeping an eye out and refreshing siege while everyone else is out having fun playing. I’m not going to claim to know the absolute best implementation of this down to the last detail, but I think I have a good framework for something that’s doable.

Basically, a commander can designate scouts for certain periods of time, who will then gain rewards proportionate to what the commanders’ squad are earning. So Commander Bob needs someone to watch the water gate at garrison. This person is likely expected to stand at the water gate for the vast majority of his time, making the occasional lap to refresh siege and scope out the other doors. Scout Jim absolutely hates doing this, but he knows it needs done and no one else is stepping up to do it, so he reluctantly agrees. For likely at least the next hour, Jim’s GW2 experience is going to be very dull. Not just dull, but completely unrewarding.

But, what if Commander Bob can designate that (just a random number for example’s sake) 5% of all the loot that his squad makes (meaning actual drops, badges, wxp, and xp) just go straight to Scout Jim? Well, I’m sure Jim won’t hate his task quite as much, and he’ll actually get something back for what would otherwise be a very thankless, but very necessary task.

That’s pretty much the core of it, the details of course need to be hacked out. Points that specifically need to be worked on, that I can think of right now:

Would it be better to go by who has literally joined a squad, or just by some arbitrary radius around the pin. Basically, how voluntary should this be? If the former, I assume organized guilds would have no problem with consent, but what about pug armies?

How should Scout Jim get his rewards? One big chest every 15 min? A constant stream of loot as the squad members earn it? Should Jim just be rewarded at the end of each event?

Should Jim literally get 5% of the squad’s income, as in, the squad will not get that 5%? Or should the squad get the same amount of rewards as before, and Jim just gets his own 5% generated for him? Again, I’m not married to 5%, just using it as an example.

And remember, any given commander is probably going to have multiples of these people. IE any good home BL defense require at least a scout at the NE and NW towers, as well as someone on garrison. If you have Hills or Bay, you’ll want someone there too.

This also has the benefit of letting you bring uplevels to WvW who will both contribute meaningfully, and also gain XP. I know actually seeing this implemented is probably a pipe dream, but supposedly big commander changes are coming. I’d like to see something like this among them.

Hule.8794:

Fomby.4295:

Well, hopefully if your aredefending a tower/keep for hours, you have killed a ton of players, giving you a lot of bags. Now, will that be enough to cover the difference? I dunno. Also, if you are one of the people that either doesn’t tag a lot, or is doing something unrewarding (monetarily) like running supply…. yyyyyeah…

Defending does not mean killing players. They may just be wandering around your keep and you will be on walls on AC waiting for them. Now and then some guys or little group will come to punch gate but still you wont kill anyone. Or only a few.

While you’re right, there’s really no way to differentiate someone standing above garri WG for 45 min at a clip and someone afk, so far as rewards go. It really sucks, but pretty much every conceivable way to reward the scouts who give up long stretches of playtime to stand at a tower or keep opens up way too much potential for afkers to abuse. We just suck it up and do it, because it needs done.

In my dream world, part of the oft-touted forthcoming changes to commander pins would involve some sort of voluntary siphoning off of rewards from a squad to designated scouts. So, say commander X and his squad designate players Y and Z to watch the NE and NW towers. The commander could designate some reasonable percentage of what his squad makes in loot, wxp, and xp to automatically be given to scouts Y and Z. Or, since rewards aren’t too hot anyway, it could just generate said percentage and give it to them, so not to deprive anyone of their already meager WvW reward. Of course, the latter might be too open to abuse.

Edit: I think Imma turn that idea into a thread.

Vayne.8563:

I’m pretty sure Anet’s intel on who was leaving and why is better than mine and very probably better than yours. Anet made the best decision they could with the data they had. Unless you claim to have better data than them, you’re another voice in a sea of opinions…just like me.

I think Anet had the metrics and the data and were able to interpret it. I think that a lot of people over ascended gear and many haven’t returned, but to me the game population is much higher now than it was in November BEFORE people started leaving.

Any MMO that has a higher population a year later than two months after launch is probably doing something right, regardless of how I personally feel about the direction the game is going.

Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a household name for a reason. It’s because it was a game that targeted people who had a higher IQ and more thought process. I assure you, you’re in a vast minority there.

As soon as I saw the scale and scope of this game, I knew concessions would have to be made. That’s because if any developer ever made a game for me…my perfect game…five guys would play it. I’d probably know most of them personally. lol

If it were up to me, there would be no stats at all. No numbers. None. No level, no gear, no upgrades, nothing. Basically, you get the idea that your character is sorta strong, cause you’d know that…or sort of smart…or what have you. And maybe those things could grow in the game without putting a specific number on it. This way, you can’t min/max at all..you just play what feels right for you. And you get completely immersed in the world because there’s no numbers to pull you out of the world. There’s be no levels. Progression would be through story, not gear, not skills. The story would be never ending.

That’s my ideal game. Somehow I don’t see it happening, so I make do with Guild Wars 2. lol

I’ll admit, they had the intel, and we didn’t, but we still don’t have it. ArenaNet have done lots of things since November, (whether the majority of forum goers agree is another matter) and I still think it’s hard to just point to ascended gear as the biggest fix. During the first half of 2013, they added guild missions, fixed culling, got sPvP much closer to being esport worthy (from a technical standpoint, we all know balance is still a bit wonky), and took the living story from a party every month with some “meh” quests to a full-on new experience every other week.

While I’m sure that the data show that people are acquiring ascended gear, I’m not sure that means people are enjoying acquiring ascended gear. I’ll admit, despite my utter dislike of the whole tier, I’m still gearing up. I’m doing it because I primarily play WvW, and I want to stay competitive. I know there’s no such thing as my perfect game. (ok, there is, but we’re not talking about Super Smash Bros. Brawl Project M here.)

It still effects me negatively though. I had been playing my thief pretty much exclusively (outside of sPvP) since launch. I’ve finally decided to do my server a service, and am seriously leveling my guardian. We have just over a month until the WvW season starts. I have no doubt he’ll be leveled and in full exotics by then, but I also know that there literally no chance he’ll have all available ascended gear by then. I just have no way to make the laurels/cash needed between now and October. With the game that it sounded like ANet were presenting us at launch, this wouldn’t be an issue. This is my and many others’ complaint, and makes myself and others less likely to stick around in the face of upcoming competition.

I do get that you’re not defending it as good or bad, but simply as something that is. But it still irks me something fierce that ArenaNet have chosen to simply compete with that which has come before, instead of anticipating that which is coming. ESO has been touting max level progression as largely horizontal, and ironically, they plan to so this by having you continue collecting skills to use on your small hotbar. I remember a little CORPG that came out in 2005 that pulled that off pretty well. EQ Next is claiming that it isn’t even going to have levels.

So yeah, ANet made a business decision, because they’re a business. I just think they made the short-sighted one, and the one that alienates their core fanbase. I think they did it to make more money NOW, instead of continuing to build on the reputation they already had, and developing for the long run.

Vayne.8563:

Actually I am concerned about the game. But I also know that using the wrong words to express your concern will invalidate your legitimate complaints.

If Anet has no intention of making a treadmill and you complain about there being one, then Anet can ignore the thread completely because they know they’re not planning on making a treadmill.

If your problem is grind, and you don’t like it, calling it a treadmill won’t change it. Complain about the grind

Due to my background, word choice is pretty important to me, and communicating your complaints effectively is the only way change can happen.

So if you have a complaint about the game, and you phrase it in an ambiguous way, it will never be heard and you’re just wasting your time. That’s why I talk about semantics so much.

That’s why I tell people not to bring up three year old videos and talk about what is going on now.

Because ultimately that’s the only way anything will be changed.

While we’re on the topic of semantics, there’s a reason people bring up three year old videos. It wasn’t a “statement of intent”. It wasn’t their “guiding principles”. It wasn’t their “business plan”. It was a manifesto. Who writes manifestos? People starting revolutions! People who want to change the way others think! ArenaNet boldly proclaimed that they were going to cast off the shackles of that which came before, and tread forth into new MMO territory.

Guild Wars 2, despite its fantastic sales, still had a rough opening couple of months. How long did it take to get the TP up and running? What was there for large guilds to do together? And yes, there were scads of people who just bought the game because the heard it was the next big MMO, and who hadn’t done their homework to find out what kind of game it was being marketed as. But these days, a large segment of the MMO market will just play the latest big game and move on, regardless. These people aren’t content locusts, they’re just folks who don’t like to be married to one game. I think had ANet stayed the course, and stood by their stated principles they could’ve continued to build the game they sounded like they intended to build.

While I have no concrete numbers, it does seem that with or without ascended gear, a fair number of people trailed off between November and February. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that over the summer, as ANet hit their stride, plenty of people have also returned to the game. If that’s true, did they return because ANet have been throwing more gear with higher stats in the game, or because GW2 started to become the game it always had the potential to be, with frequent updates, and lots of stuff to do that wasn’t locked behind a gear wall?

The fact is, people were leaving the game for all sorts of reasons, and just pointing to lack of progression as the problem was a short-sighted, knee-jerk reaction. While there are lot’s of folks pleased by the addition of ascended gear, there are also lots of folks displeased by it. Once ANet had committed to trying to appease those who wanted gear progression, they really had no choice but to keep rolling it out, at least untill you could put a pink in every slot. But really, did it go far enough to keep the WoW crowd happy? My launch guild still went back to WoW, because there were no analogues to raiding. This all happened around the end of November. And these are the people factals were made for. In my opinion, ascended gear merely ticks off those who want no vertical progression, and doesn’t go far enough to appease those who want it. As Bill Cosby said, “I don’t know the secret to success, but the secret to failure is trying to please everybody”

Aphix.9846:

This game is actually doing well, out of all the games Ive played this requires the least amount of grinding.
Quit moaning, you are playing the game wrong, you make it grindy for yourself. You do stupid braindead kitten over and over again and then come on the forums blaming Anet.

…

This might be true in the PvE world of MOAR ZERKER!, but in WvW, we want 2 things: to stay competitive, and not have to PvE to do so. My favorite things about GW2 before the november update, was knowing that I was geared, I had gotten mileage out of PvE, and now I could spend my days battling in WvW worry-free. Now ANet releases a new batch of grind with not just higher base stats, but higher base damage, and they do it just a month before the whole WvW season kicks off. While most of my compatriots in the borderlands were quite content to play from week to week, and point tick to point tick, now we feel even more obligated to gear up for the beginning of the season. What is this going to require? Grind.

20 laurals is still not cheap. That’s still 20 days of dailies. And all of your are easily attainable… for the PvE crowd. Playing the way I want to play is playing WvW, and nat having to worry about who has BiS gear.

Vayne.8563:

I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.

Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.

In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.

A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.

You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.

I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.

I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.
[/quote]

It may only be a single tier of gear, but they’ve released it incrementally. Therefore, the game has a new power plateau roughly every 3 months, just like WoW et al. Granted, each new plateau is close to the last, relative to most other MMO’s, but it’s still been changing as often as a traditional MMO. You still need to hop back on the treadmill every 3ish months. And unlike most MMO’s there’s no quick way to grab the older bits. Usually when new dungeons/raids come out, the old ones get softened up a bit, and the number of runs required to gear up is lowered. When weapons are added tomorrow, rings will likely still require a month’s worth of laurals each. It might be a horse of a different color, but it’s still a horse.

Le Rooster.8715:

the thing there are probably only 5 or 6 servers in NA that can show signs of reguralaly queue all 4 maps if this update works having every other server suffer just so those few servers can play should not be the case.

I’m on JQ, and apart from a few hours at reset, it’s rare to find a que on more than EB. During NA prime on saturdays you’ll generally find a que on EB and a short que on JQBL.

Even in tier 1, the meta is more about having a large map hopping group to keep tabs on all 3 BL’s because no one keeps 4 maps full these days. It didn’t really hit me how much WvW populations have dropped off until I typed that last sentence.

Vayne.8563:

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

You’ve got a lot of faith. Prelaunch, it sounded like exotics were going to be the final gear plateau, at least until the level cap was raised (which ANet did tell us about before launch). 3 months into the game we get another tier of gear, and ANet basically explained it away with “well we never said there wouldn’t be a new tier of gear” and that they were “planning it long before launch”.

So either they were misleading in their perlaunch messaging (which is the one I believe), or they outright lied when ascended gear was introduced. Regardless, I can’t take “ascended will be the final tier” at face value. Maybe 3-6 months after ascended is all rolled out, it will be time to up the level cap. Then it’ll be a whole new grind of a different color.

Ok, this might be a crazy conspiracy theory, but hear me out. I know there’s no universal consensus on this, but I’m in the camp that believes that the WvW team really does care about this part of the game and either NCSoft or just the rest of ANet aren’t providing WvW with nearly the same resources as PvE.

What if this whole league thing is basically a publicity stunt for WvW? Maybe the details of the first season don’t matter so much as spiking player population in WvW? That way the WvW team can show NCSoft/ANet higher ups that people really do play WvW. Just give ’em a bit more manpower/money/whatever and the WvW team can get to serving up smiles.

Thoughts?

Yeah, you do know part of the whole league thing is to get people into WvW right? Making it so less people can play it is kind of counter-intuitive.

Algreg.3629:

beats me how you can possibly construe a “other games do it, so it is fine for GW2 to do it”-justification out of that line of mine. But you are welcome.

Sorry man. Actually, your post seemed pretty neutral, just thought I’d toss my 2 cents in there. If my 2 cents seemed very angry, it was at ANet and ascended gear, not you.

Namu.5712:

Adding one tier of gear does not constitute a treadmill. It is merely a flight of stairs once you get to the top (ascended) your done. There is no infinite stair case chasing new tiers of gear beyond ascended.

However if once the full ascended is out and they come out with a new tier you can officially call it a treadmill.

The implementation still makes it a treadmill. Just like every other game, every 3ish months, there’s new BiS gear to acquire. It doesn’t matter that it’s not a whole set each time, the fact is, the power plateau has been rising in GW2 at the same rate it does for every WoW clone on the market. Each jump in power is small compared to most games, but it still happens just as often, and what’s worse, there’s no harder content to go with said gear. The difference is only in the details.

Algreg.3629:

Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

I didn’t buy other games. I bought Guild Wars 2. (Ok, I have bought other games, but stopped playing them when they became more like jobs.) I bought GW2 because “You shouldn’t have to grind to get to the fun reward.” New gear tiers screw up WvW, especially when acquisition of said gear is so heavily slanted toward PvE. May I remind everyone that EQ Next isn’t even going to have levels, I think GW2 could survive just fine with its initially stated grind free gear system.

Yeah… I think I overheard SoR talking about raising the mightiest PUG army ever, and leading them to victory. Definitely transfer to SoR.

The league itself isn’t a terrible idea, though the implementation thereof can be debated pretty heavily. Especially the implementation while most avid WvWers will likely still be working on getting to the new BiS plateau.

What really irks me is after Devon finished with the announcement, the moderator or whoever said some to the effect of "What do you world v worlders think of that! " Like, “Aha! you’ve been complaining all this time, when we’ve had this up our sleeves!”

Just like WXP, it’s not a terrible idea, but it’s got shaky implementation, and it’s not really what anyone was looking for.

Ahh, I was so focused on utilities, I forgot about the staff! Great tips all around. Thanks man.

And don’t forget the forthcoming #7… Ascended weapons!

Vocah.1208:

Here’s ANOTHER way to look at this:

If you hit the gym every day and work your kitten off for a sixpack, you won’t just want to look good, you’ll want your core to have some power as well.

But here’s the thing, there are plenty of games that treat you that way via numbers. Basically every other MMO out there will give you higher stats in return for time played. Guild Wars 2, pre-launch was heavily messaged to not require grind, and reward skill over time spent. Lots and lots of folks took that to mean that power creep and gear grind (buzzwords, I know, but there’s no better word for them) were basically not going to be issues in this game.

As far as I’m concerned, the core power that you speak of is my mind being sharper, and my fingers being more nimble, and has nothing to do with arbitrary numbers on my hero panel. I know there are a lot of complaints to be had about endgame PvE right now, but if the content is lacking, does giving you new numbers to chase through the “lacking” content really fix anything? Why do you play MMO’s? Are they actually fun for you, or are they just a reward dispenser?

For those of us who primarily play in WvW, a new tier of gear is a needless imbalance, and one that will likely require a hefty bit of PvE to get. Plus there’s the issue of time-gating BiS equipment. Before, any character who had been leveled could easily gear up, not just for one build, but as many as necessary, and we could get back to the business of competitive play. Now we’re going to have to decide, do I gear up my guardian or my mesmer first? Do I get a BiS support staff, or BiS tanking hammer first? Will my mesmer be worth playing while I’m busy gearing up my guardian?

I get that the WoW model works for a lot of people, but GW2 was marketed as an escape from that. A year ago, if you would have said that you really needed a home with gear grind in it, I would have told you the joint you’re looking for is up the street. Now I say just throw your skritt anywhere. Everyone else already has.

The biggest problem here isn’t that ANet chose a system, it’s that they advertised one and within three months delivered something quite different.

Elidath.5679:

“Real men wear pink” – Dan Hibiki, truest man ever.

When you are confident enough in your virility to kill ennemies with pink butterfly and totally enjoy it, who would laugh? Besides you, I mean? :P (it is mandatory to laugh maniacally in those circumstances, mesmer code of conduct)

While I agree with your sentiment, I’m not sure quoting Dan Hibiki is ever really a good way to make your point.

Ahh, that was a lot of clarification!

A couple things I can clarify. Despite our group size, and the fact we’re one of the better organized guilds on the server, most nights we can’t get even a single mesmer on. So while we should have more, that’s not the case, and it’s why I’m trying to help out. The commander frequently forgets this and we get, “Drop stability.. drop veil.. drop veil… VEIL!… Veil? Godammit!”

I didn’t realize focus had been nerfed, thanks for that.

As far as survivability, I assumed PVT would be the go-to for this kind of build. I’ve been playing thief mainly, which can be useful to a zerg, despite popular belief, but is far from needed. Hence, my change in focus. But anyway, I’m used to surviving with a squishy class.

And a last couple questions. Would Blink would be the ideal stun breaker? And I’m betting the ideal zerging build would be X/X/30/30/X, no?

Thanks for the pointers!

BondageBill.4021:

I’m pretty excited about SAB. I missed it the first time around, so I’m looking forward to checking out all the hype.

I am also anticipating detailed release notes on the ascended weapons. Once again, it’s time to decide whether I’m going to jump off this treadmill once and for all. At least I can say Anet hasn’t killed the game for me yet, and I hope that remains true next week.

^^This exactly.

My guild seems to be running out of folks willing to run mesmer in WvW, so I thought I’d dust mine off and finish leveling him. (I’ve played him lots in PvP, but that didn’t go very far toward leveling). The things I understand a Mesmer in organized zerg play MUST have:
* a focus (for pulls and swiftness)
* a torch (for hiding in keeps)
* Veil
* Null Field
* Portal
* Time Warp (or occasionally Mass Invis?)
Does that mean most mesmers use wand for both mainhand slots? If not, which off-hand pairs better with sword/better with wand?
Presumably, you’d keep a staff in your pack too, for when you need it.

My big question is, do most of you use the three mentioned utilities all the time and forgo your Oh-Skritt button (presumably Blink), or do most mesmers not run with portal on their bar all the time, and just hope to be out of combat when the need arises.

Again, my focus here is on helping a group of 15-30 depending on the night, not roaming. I of course will be consulting the guild on their particular needs as well, but I thought I’d reach outto the larger mesmer community as well. Clarification on these and any other tips would be appreciated.

What’s more insulting than beating your opponent with an explosion of pink butterflies? Just look at it that way.

Waaaaaaay back in October I hadn’t realized there were yellow rares, and dark yellow exotics. So I definitely thought I was nearly fully geared and showed my GM some piece of gear to see the skin. Soon we realized my whole set was rare. The guild had a good laugh at that.

Carzor Stelatis.9435:

EchenSketch.9142:

sminkiottone.6972:

Brooklyn.9578:

Better stated, is WvW the baby left in the car while the parent goes shopping?

Eventually the baby will get taken away, or succumb…

This is getting old. I would gladly pay for a good WvW experience at this point. Too bad there isn’t one yet.

Hahaha that made me laugh, but you are forgetting the sPvP child, sadly for him its even worse :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-SMqzuNRU

We should go on strike, me and my friends are no longer buying gems untill the dev team wakes up.

Yes, go on strike to limit Anet’s resources further, getting less work done. Why are people so impatient? Why do people not understand how long it takes, and how expensive it is to create and maintain an MMO. Anet’s doing the best they can. If you can’t wait, take a break and play another game. That’s the genius behind a F2P system. Come back when things get better and stop QQ’ing.

First off, Guild Wars 2 is buy-to-play not free-to-play. That aside, declining to give more money to a company you’re dissatisfied with, in order to encourage them to sell you what you do want, is how capitalism works.

This exactly. Most of us know that an MMO is a big, slow-moving beast. But this year we’ve also received two interesting bits of news, one for PvE, and one for WvW.

PvE: We’re doubling the size of our team! Lot’s of PvE all the time for everybody!

WvW: Please be patient.

I think they could pull it off in their current motion comic style. Have some scenes whipping by in the bacground while Scarlet’s eyes get huge or something.

Yeah, but I’m betting there’s a correlation between the high number of humans, the low number of charr, and the fans from GW1.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

And nobody loves the Charr… Almost worth getting a female engineer charr… (already have two mesmers…)

Nobody loves the charr because we remember… (thousand yard stare)

…We remember Ascalon.

WvW
1)Fun
2)Not rewarding

Where was the WvW section?

If I could use it in WvW, I would understand the huge amount of downtime. Since I can’t why does it need to be so long?

Wait, I’ve got a better question. Since I can’t use it in WvW, why did I bother to get it in the first place?

Brooklyn.9578:

Better stated, is WvW the baby left in the car while the parent goes shopping?

Eventually the baby will get taken away, or succumb…

Jeebus, that’s morbid… I like it.

And I always said that the only people who don’t have mesmer alts are people who main mesmer. Guess I was wrong.

I have no problems with the ones in the game, but I do really miss the Chris Walken dance from GW1.

Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice…

Yeah, but will it capture a huge part of the GW2 market? Of course, even if it grabs every last avid WvWer, will it grab a huge part of the GW2 market?

Yeah, but there are times for uplevels, and there are times for 80’s. No one wants you to bring an uplevel for reset, or most of the weekend for that matter. My guild really isn’t crazy about bringing uplevels to organized guild stuff whenever it might be. It’s one thing to ride the karma train around EB for leveling during the week (especially now that it gets a jump on WXP grinding), it’s quite another to bring sub-optimal characters when it really matters.

… slow clap…

This, ANet! Do this!

is ESO WvW even in the betas yet? Last I heard it wasn’t. If they can pull off what they’ve been talking about (starving keeps by holding farms and mines and whatnot, having it all in a Cyrodiil sized map so it’s WvW in a WORLD, etc) it could be a serious threat. As for the sub? I spend a sub’s worth most months in the gem shop anyway, no skin off my teeth.

And @ Bailey, ESO has a target of spring 2014, which was already pushed back from spring 2013, so they might actually pull it off.

maddoctor.2738:

Klawlyt.6507:

Believe it or not I know all that. It doesn’t change the fact that GW2 was still heavily marketed to folks who were sick of classic mmo’s and sick of the grind. And while I know mmo’s aren’t static, the game launched with easy to acquire BiS gear coupled with literal YEARS of messaging that the game wasn’t going to come out with a new tier of gear every couple months. And literally 3 months after launch, they introduced a new tier of gear. They’ve wisely held off the next round for another 9 months, but here we are again.

They “excused” themselves by saying Ascended gear was planned to be in the game at release, bad excuse but still an excuse.

3 months after release they introduced Ascended Rings and Ascended Backpieces in Fractals, 2 months later (5 total) we got Ascended Amulets with the Laurel change, 1 month later (6 total) we got Ascended Accessories with the Guild Missions. Now 6 months later (12 total) we get Ascended Weapons through crafting.

They are adding Ascended quality gear in either new, or old activities. There is a good possibility that Ascended Armor will come from Dungeons (I can dream, can I?)

There is no indication that they will release a new tier of gear anytime soon.

I once had a buddy start nailing my ex as soon as she became my ex. When I confronted him about he said “Ah, but I told you I wasn’t interested in dating her.” This is what the ascended excuse feels like. “Well we never said there would be no gear progression.” No, but you messaged pretty heavily that people who aren’t into that should play your game.

As for the deets of when ascended pieces came out, thanks for the clarification. I quit GW2 not long after the first round. and came back in June when it looked like things had maybe settled, and I could acquire them without doing fractals. Depending on the implementation, this could be the final nail in the coffin. My Elder Scrolls collection will be here in a couple weeks, and that should be able to mostly tide me over till ESO comes out next year.

It doesn’t matter that each batch of ascended gear is all part of the same gear tier, because each batch is still a new tier of power creep. Therefore, rounds of power creep have still entered the game at a pretty normal pace compared to EOMMORPGotM, (roughly quarterly) it’s just that each round is comparatively small, and has no higher difficulty content to accompany it.

DevonCarver.5370:

I’ll also point out here that I am not involved in this system, outside of making sure the interests of WvW are appropriately represented as it is designed and implemented. If you have suggestions for different ways to handle this, you should find a more appropriate forum.

Translation:
There’s nothing I can do, and I’m contractually obligated not to kitten about my employer.

I feel for you man, I do. I take it on good faith that the WvW team is genuinely invested in WvW, and that NCSoft (and perhaps ANet as a whole) are not. kittening about you when it’s NCSoft (and again, maybe the bigger ANet) who decide how resources are allocated is like yelling at a waiter because your food wasn’t cooked right.

But this is the WvW forum, and we are voicing our WvW concerns here, like good little forumers. I’m sure I’m not the only one voicing my concerns in the general forum as well, but there it’s so easy to get drowned out by the people who see this game only through the lens of PvE. Which kind of proves the dilemma, it’s evident there are a lot more PvEers than WvWers out there. But when you’re biggest challenge is getting to a boss before the zerg melts it, it’s hard to appreciate what any change does to the competitive environment. When you’re greatest joy in this game is receiving stuff, it’s hard to appreciate competing for competition’s sake. Couple that with the fact that you’re one of the more active devs on the forums, and discussing this on the general forums can be a bit like smashing your head into a wall.

Zacchary.6183:

Klawlyt.6507:

Zacchary.6183:

Yeah well I had to play other cheap classes to learn how to beat them. No excuse NOT to do that, Burnfall 2.0.

Here are professional game balancer David Sirlin’s thoughts on “cheap classes” and those who make such accusations. (Can’t remember who linked to this the other day, but thanks! It wasa great read.)

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Already read it. Facts are none of the classes are cheap once you know how to handle them. For example, I kept getting ripped apart by mesmers in wvw until I made one and played with everything. Now I can almost safely guess a mesmer’s build by highlighting them.

Again, no excuse.

Ah cool, all good then. And I wholeheartedly agree. Granted, from one update to the next things can swing one way or the other (looking at you, early July necros), but even then, every class can be beaten by understanding it.

Zacchary.6183:

Yeah well I had to play other cheap classes to learn how to beat them. No excuse NOT to do that, Burnfall 2.0.

Here are professional game balancer David Sirlin’s thoughts on “cheap classes” and those who make such accusations. (Can’t remember who linked to this the other day, but thanks! It wasa great read.)

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Ohh I didn’t even think of that. For once engi’s lack of options could be seen as a boon! Poor warriors. Do we know for sure yet if they’ll be time gated by account or by character?

ASB.4295:

Klawlyt.6507:

We were the folks who kept GW1 alive, and that’s why we generally feel so betrayed by this pandering to the target audience of EOMMORPGotM.

Fun Fact: The only reason there’s no direct gear progression in GW1 is because Anet at first didn’t regard their PvE content as anything else but a lengthy tutorial for what they considered was going to become endgame for every single player: PvP

However, by the time the PvE part of their game grew increasingly popular with people, they couldn’t change their whole gear system to make long term gear progression part of the game without totally screwing over balance. They didn’t build their game with that in mind, and by the time they realized it, all they could do was to add a crapton of different skins and a few pve-only skills and titles that made you marginally more powerful each expansion/campaign.

The way gear worked in GW1 was the result of a miscalculation on Anets part, which unexpectedly attracted a set of players with preferences they never really intended to cater to.

Hell, even their president regards GW1 as a stale game. It’s pretty clear by now that, had they known GW1 PvE would’ve become that popular on its own before they started building it, they would’ve added long term vertical gear progression before it even launched.

Believe it or not I know all that. It doesn’t change the fact that GW2 was still heavily marketed to folks who were sick of classic mmo’s and sick of the grind. And while I know mmo’s aren’t static, the game launched with easy to acquire BiS gear coupled with literal YEARS of messaging that the game wasn’t going to come out with a new tier of gear every couple months. And literally 3 months after launch, they introduced a new tier of gear. They’ve wisely held off the next round for another 9 months, but here we are again.

Basically we thought they were saying, “we know new tiers of gear are a pain in the kitten , so we’re not going to make you go through that!”

What it turns out they were saying was, “we know new tiers of gear are a pain in the kitten so we’re only going to make you go through it about once a year!”

Algreg.3629:

that path was decided at the end of last year and has been controversly and thoroughly discussed. GW2 has a mild gear progression now and it will stay I presume. You can either (begrudgingly) accept it or stop bothering at all at the loss of character power.

While you’re absolutely right, the actual implementation will determine which course of action I choose. Of course, if the latter is bad enough it will lead to the third option: quitting GW2.

Yaki.9563:

I’m glad they are releasing Ascended gear. This game isn’t compelling enough to play just for the sake of playing. An MMO without progression is laughable.

Here’s what you’re missing. They already made a game like that. It’s called Every Other MMORPG On The Market. And guess what? That game has never been able to hold my attention. EOMMORPGotM has sold well because lots of folks like that style of play, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But a huge part of Guild Wars 2’s marketing was to people who were burned out by playing EOMMORPGotM. I log in and run off to WvW and revel in the fact that I can play in a massivley multiplayer online space and not have to worry about running on the gear treadmill. Part of why I don’t like leveling alts is because I have to start looking at gear again instead of just vendoring it.

As soon as a game starts feeling like a job, I stop. I have a job for that purpose, except it gives me actual money. I am not alone in this sentiment, and GW2 was supposed to be a little paradise for those with similar mindsets to mine. We were the folks who kept GW1 alive, and that’s why we generally feel so betrayed by this pandering to the target audience of EOMMORPGotM.

“Guild Wars 2 is about having fun, not grinding to the fun reward.”

zen.6091:

DevonCarver.5370:

Bailey.6892:

Sadly my money is that they will be a large advantage. This is based on how anet has handled things in the past (poorly). Being forced to pve to enjoy wvw is a bad idea.

My goal is to eliminate the latter scenario. And I promise to do as much as I can to meet that.

I take it that since legendaries will soon be able to have stat changes out of combat, it would be possible to do this for other gear?

Why not just get it over with and make a system where a character has a set of WvW gear (armor and trinkets) that can have its stat combos tweaked outside of WvW, along with a bag slot for extra weapons? Each piece could also have a slot for the WvW infusions that are ridiculously expensive right now too, if you’re trying to get ascended gear with laurels.

The progression in this system would be account bound unlocks (unlock soldier’s stats, unlock superior sigil of air, unlock superior rune of divinity, unlock skin etc.) for a modest amount of badges. Then you can simply adjust your gear as needed. It would also be incredibly nice to be able to save an entire gear loadout as a template!

If you are serious about letting WvW players play without having to farm PvE for gold or doing PvE for decent skins, this is the only way to do it. It would sill be a bit of a grind, but a goal with an actual result that is useful when you’ve done it and worth playing for so you can easily make different builds for WvW like sPvP. That is what makes the game fun in the long term. Otherwise you are just dangling empty calorie carrots in front of people that are kind-maybe-not-really fun for about two weeks.

If this were to actually happen, it would also be nice to maybe have a special item to put in the mystic forge with our old unwanted gear that returned badges, xp or whatever is needed for the new unlocks. This would probably help the PvE economy so WvW players don’t dump a bunch of stuff on the market all at once too.

PS: Account bound world XP.

While I think you’ve got an awesome idea there (several, actually!), Devon has all but said that the devs feel obligated to push us back into PvE every once in a while. Here are my thoughts from another thread.

Klawlyt.6507:

DevonCarver.5370:

Precursors do drop from the chests, but very rarely. I’d love to say you should be able to get everything ever from just playing WvW, but not only is that not going to happen, it’s not good for the game as a whole. We will continue to do what we can to improve the rewards available from WvW and there are some developments specifically relating to skill points that are coming soon to the game as a whole, but honestly if you want to get all the things in the game, you have to play all the game. Branch out, I suspect you’ll enjoy it. And WvW will still be there when you want to play it.

(emphasis mine)

That’s basically admitting that they have to cajole us back into PvE for whatever reason. Be it making the LS look more populated than it would be otherwise or whatever. Granted, this post was about getting particular shinies. Shinies which I have no problem going without, but it still betrays that the devs feel the need to push us back into PvE for some reason. It was kind of insulting (and as a general rule, I’ll defend Devon and the devs) that he was implying that all of us in WvW land had no idea what we were missing. I’d wager most WvWers got their $60 out of PvE and are sticking around specifically for the WvW. That would be, like, playing how you want to play.