Guild Wars 2

ozmaniandevil.6805:

I agree Guracie. I mean, look at the uproar over the reduction of karma! It was sooo bad. And yet, I can still rack up karma like mad. Let’s wait and see to make any judgments on things that haven’t happened yet.

The reduction in karma may not affect people that have been playing a while because there is nothing to spend it on. It was nice being able to hit level 80 and buy a full suit of temple armor for those that aren’t rolling in the cash. This is not possible anymore. Its now easier to EotM train to 80 and while doing so save all your gold till 80 also and then buy exotics.

So all that the karma reduction did was make it a grind to get temple armor early and then by the time you are rolling in karma most people have no use for karma armor. When there is no use for something except for a couple of crafting recipes of course you will be swimming in that currency.

Donari.5237:

Aurette.7908:

Is it worth completing the map on alts? Does it give the legendary crafting item again or that is just an account award once?

You get the two Gifts of Exploration for every alt that gets 100% of the world. That’s how people make more than two legendaries per account.

Or you did. Has anyone who was still lacking PvE completion done it since the patch and gotten two Gifts? I would expect it’s still at two, or they’d have said it in the notes, but it’s worth getting some confirmation.

Can someone answer this please?

I always thought you should get one gift for completing the PVE maps and one for completing the WvW maps. I can see how the WvW maps could be done in a fraction of the time depending on the player and server. But in my own opinion they balance out to both being worth 1 gift each for the challenge and time it takes to get each one completed.

James Spades.4720:

Adept traits should be rewarded as leveling rewards, making the past level 40 leveling feel more rewarding and leaving only master and grandmaster traits to be unlocked trough some chores… Being a much reduced number of traits they could be unlocked by doing something that really haves something to do with that specific trait.
having the first traits rewarded as you level up also would let new players experiment on them and try different builds. This of course if master traits are unlocked by doing something appropriate for the level the player should start to use them.

Many people have mentioned this. IMO I think if they went that route that only the new grand master traits should be unlocked through tasks, with adept, master traits, and the original grand master traits being unlocked the original way. This gives a solid foundation for players all the way up to level 80. Allowing proper builds and experimentation along the way. Then any new traits for the original classes can be locked behind tasks. If they had done this originally there would be no complaints from the majority of players that are keeping these trait threads alive.

I bet this was the original idea they had when creating the new grand master traits and then some jack kitten said lets just do it to all traits. Because they thought how great an idea it is to use a trait hunt to force players to do certain content but it takes less work than creating new traits for the same tasks.

If they do not find a way to incorporate traits back in to the normal leveling progression for the majority of traits, then the new new trait system is going to be just as big of a failure.

I think the issue could be the OP isn’t using the right traits and/or isn’t rotating through other elements. Switch to earth and get protection and stability, switch to water for healing and to cleanse conditions. Ele is squishie but has plenty of ways to overcome that. I can see how not having traits could make things hard though.

Izziee.8392:

Titan Cronus.9216:

To cut a long story short, I played GW since shortly after its release and met my missus there shortly after that. After meeting her in the game, I met her and her daughter in real life and have been together since. Anyway, a few days ago, we had our forth child together.

So now thanks to GW, we are a family of seven. Me, the missus and our five girls. THANKYOU ONCE AGAIN GUILD WARS! (And obviously GW2)
We also had/have an amazing time playing with the GW/GW2 communities. THANKYOU GUYS! Best gaming communities ever!

So you have twins?

GW is only a couple years old right? so twins twice..

hmm?

They met in GW not GW2

PookieDaWombat.6209:

I just want to make sure that Anet is actually going to engage with us before Traits 3.0 goes live so we can avoid another year long+ quagmire.

They won’t. If they were going to engage with us they would already be bouncing ideas off us in the forums. The guys in charge are stubborn and believe they know better than the players. We are supposed to shut up, eat what they give us, and like it. So we will get what we get and I will continue to play other games.

Cameo.4073:

I have a question about the ‘trait changes’ since my wallet is closed to anet until the system gets an overhaul…

If the trait changes affect everyone, wouldn’t it have to be independent of Heart of Thorns?

Or will it be like the NPE/trait system where only characters created after the new code is implemented get the trait change? (and if you don’t buy the expansion you are stuck with the old system or your characters made during the Trait 2.0 year are stuck with that)

Really would like some more concrete information (and I don’t mean cinder blocks thrown in this direction with ‘Trust me’ written on them)

I agree, just a little bit of info like

Yes it will come at the same time as HoT. Yes it will be for everyone even if you do not purchase HoT. Or no only those that purchase HoT get the change. Those are simple questions that we really shouldn’t even need to ask but since they are being asked they should be kittening answered.

runeblade.7514:

Galphar.3901:

runeblade.7514:

Galphar.3901:

runeblade.7514:

Bellizare.5816:

runeblade.7514:

Bellizare.5816:

runeblade.7514:

I like the new trait system.

It gave me meaningful enhancements between level 30-80. Before the trait system, I simply power leveled because leveling was boring.

Be honest Blade. Leveling is still boring once you get your first 80.

Look at my signature. Count how many characters I have.

Most of them are created after the new trait system has been implemented.

And you did not find the repetition tedious?

I don’t find the repetition tedious.

If I really need that specific trait or I have empty slots, I go to the profession trainer. I only need a minimum of 7 traits. Every other traits is cosmetic.

Traits are a distraction and a side quest away from the repetitive heart quests.

So what you are saying is that you DO NOT have every trait unlocked on all 28 of your characters? Because each profession has 65 traits not just 7 and “anything over 7 unlocked is just cosmetic.” If you don’t have all 65 traits unlocked then you can’t experiment and find new and better builds for yourself.

Where did I say that?

It’s what I took this to mean:

runeblade.7514:

Galphar.3901:

runeblade.7514:

Bellizare.5816:

runeblade.7514:

I like the new trait system.

It gave me meaningful enhancements between level 30-80. Before the trait system, I simply power leveled because leveling was boring.

Be honest Blade. Leveling is still boring once you get your first 80.

Look at my signature. Count how many characters I have.

Most of them are created after the new trait system has been implemented.

Then there is no way possible that you have all of the traits unlocked for all 28 characters without buying them from the trainer(broken events not counted).

I bought only a few because I needed something to fill up the empty slots. Every other traits are cosmetic and I hunted them all down because I needed a side quest that isn’t focused on leveling up. I spent around 10 skill point average for each characters.

So what you are saying is that you DO NOT have every trait unlocked on all 28 of your characters?

I’m not reading anything that says, “I don’t have every trait unlocked on all 28 characters.”

But well technically that’s true. I only have one character that isn’t level 80 and don’t have all the traits because she isn’t level 80.

Everything you are forced to do in order to get traits you could still do with the old system. The only difference is that those that do not like nor want to play your way are not forced to do so. You can still get 100% map completion, you can still get 100% exploration(even though you won’t get anymore achievements for it), you can still roam the world killing every champion and completing every Dynamic Event whether they be singular or a chain. The only difference is you won’t be forced to do anything you don’t want to.

The old system had level gating in it so you weren’t just given everything at level one. You still had to wait for certain levels to unlocks the tiers. And when you unlocked a tier you got every trait for that tier. They were very nice power up levels but you still had to have enough trait points to use them. So even when you finally unlocked the grandmaster traits you could only lock in 1 until you got more trait points. But the big thing here is that even though you only use one, you had the choice of changing it if that trait didn’t work well with your build and how you play.

The old trait system was better overall for everyone and the only people that do not believe that are the ones that want everyone to play the way they like to play.

arenanet = Tony in IM3
players wanting info on change = Killian
Trait thread 1 = the roof
Trait thread 2 = new roof we were pointed to, after we caught up with Tony again and said “man that’s not cool sending us to the roof”.

Something about fool me once comes to mind.

Edited to add: Lack of basic details on upcoming changes and additions to a game(or any product) are only done when they know the majority of people are not going to like it.

Astral Projections.7320:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

It would be nice if you could unlock 1 or 2 extra bank spaces through game play but its really not needed. Bank space is completely functional and gives you enough space for anyone that is not hoarder and there are things you can do even if you are a hoarder. Like create more characters and use them as mules. Email items to the mules and don’t pull the items out of them. Out of all the things being sold in the gem store, bank space and increased material collection size are the 2 things that I have no issues at all being there as they are only QoL items. Do they make life more convenient and make it so you waste less time with inventory management? Yes. That’s what QoL items are supposed to do. Do you need them to do any part of the game? Nope. Does it put something in to the gem store that should be earned in game? Yes and no. In DDO you can unlock a couple of bank tabs through game play and the rest of the bank slots unlock with real money. But DDO has way less space then GW2. GW2 has a normal bank space equal to DDOs entire bank space with unlocked tabs and bought tabs. The amount of space compared to guild wars 1 is about the same as the comparison to DDO. So I really don’t think we are getting screwed on space. I think they gave us a good amount to start with and made it so you can upgrade to an even better amount for a better QoL in game.

I’m am no defender of arenanet, I just think there is way more important things to fight for rather than some QoL change like adding more bank space. Which isn’t in a bad place anyways.

Just a point, you can’t email to yourself. You would have to either email to a friend and have him send it back (and this won’t work for account/soulbound items) or have an alt account to email back and forth.

That’s true, been quite a while since I logged in and even longer since I actually did the mail thing. Which now that you mention it was with my daughter on her account. Good catch there and thank you for clarifying to people so they do not get confused.

It would be nice if you could unlock 1 or 2 extra bank spaces through game play but its really not needed. Bank space is completely functional and gives you enough space for anyone that is not hoarder and there are things you can do even if you are a hoarder. Like create more characters and use them as mules. Email items to the mules and don’t pull the items out of them. Out of all the things being sold in the gem store, bank space and increased material collection size are the 2 things that I have no issues at all being there as they are only QoL items. Do they make life more convenient and make it so you waste less time with inventory management? Yes. That’s what QoL items are supposed to do. Do you need them to do any part of the game? Nope. Does it put something in to the gem store that should be earned in game? Yes and no. In DDO you can unlock a couple of bank tabs through game play and the rest of the bank slots unlock with real money. But DDO has way less space then GW2. GW2 has a normal bank space equal to DDOs entire bank space with unlocked tabs and bought tabs. The amount of space compared to guild wars 1 is about the same as the comparison to DDO. So I really don’t think we are getting screwed on space. I think they gave us a good amount to start with and made it so you can upgrade to an even better amount for a better QoL in game.

I’m am no defender of arenanet, I just think there is way more important things to fight for rather than some QoL change like adding more bank space. Which isn’t in a bad place anyways.

Astralporing.1957:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Does anyone have an actual argument other than “because mithril and elder wood logs are this way and silk isnt, therefore silk must conform”?

There’s been enough arguments in this and similar threads already. Not my fault you’re not reading them.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Does anyone think Anet didnt already consider this beforehand and consider the impacts?

Yes, i am sure they did consider the impact. I am also sure they underestimated it. Overkill is one of Anet’s signature moves.

I don’t think they underestimated it. I think they purposefully made certain recipes absurd to inflate prices on certain hard to grind items. Like silver doubloons, all other types of materials similar to doubloons that are used in place of each other in the many recipes can be upgraded. But for some reason the one type of those that is used exclusively in a recipe for a legendary doesn’t have the capability. It also happens to be a material that is rare to get at level cap and so it can not be farmed for in the normal way for end game items. Its only makes sense that a low level mat should not be used in a crafting recipe, they should use platinum doubloons instead. Plus it should be possible to upgrade copper doubloons into the silvers and so on all the way up to platinums. But none of those are true and that is because arenanet wants it that way. They want the doubloons to be absurdly expensive, just like they want silk to be expensive. There is no oops they made a mistake and there is no good reason except for that arenanet wants it that way. Personally my tinfoil hat says its so that the trading post has some items that are expensive and needed in large quantities to keep people grinding gold or buying gold from the gemstore to bypass that grind.

Vayne.8563:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Vayne.8563:

shadow.6174:

Yes, there was a patch that fixed several things. But a big part of it still feels wrong and needs some action. Even after that fixes the system still treats people as having low IQ, things are still dumb and non-sense, it still have too much hand-holding and too much restrictions where it was never needed.

The fix done feels something like when someone holds your hand to help you to cross the street, then you tell them that they are gripping your hand too much and all what they do is only lessen it a very little bit, but still holding it tight as if supposing you aren’t able enough to do it on your own.

But there are people with low IQs. You’re probably a smart guy and smart people don’t realize that most people are average. There’s this thread right now on reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2vqowu/new_player_with_some_questions/

This guy is level 15 and doesn’t know what to do. He just doesn’t. Now I’m not saying he’s not intelligent. I’m saying he could be quite smart, but he’s from other games that give you very clear breadcrumb trails. This game doesn’t.

So any help you can give players that aren’t as quick as you are isn’t a bad thing. Frustrated people do leave games.

These changes weren’t meant for you and an experienced player can travel through them very quickly.

That’s why I say that our feedback, saying that we shouldn’t be treated like we’re stupid..well sure, that’s what the most intelligent people would think.

How about we try to be a little more understanding to those that haven’t picked it up so easily.

From someone who advocates a lot about not every game is for everyone please explain why we need to cater to these people. This game was already one of the easiest to pick up and play MMOs on the market. If he can’t get it then I’m pretty sure MMOs aren’t his thing. There is no reason to dumb the game down for someone who most likely won’t be hanging around anyways. There was already a starter area for every race, why not just add to that so its a better tutorial.

We cater to people for the game to exist and continue. That’s why the average/lowest common denominator has always been catered to. Games that are aimed at only the highest percentage of the population tend to be ignored by the rest of the population..but MMOs today are too competitive to not try to get everyone they can get. You end up with a niche game, which is fine, but then it gets updated less, because it’s a niche game. It becomes a vicious circle.

I guarantee you that the games I’d like the most would end up going out of business. There must be a balance between getting enough new players across the gate to play the game and stay with it and catering to those who like the game for other reasons.

And you know, the NPE has tipped the balance a bit too much in their favor. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t agree with that.

But you know, having a bunch of people running around the open world, who never do dungeons or triple threat isn’t particularly negatively affecting my game. It is, however, helping to fund my game.

That’s why.

The only games I liked that went out of business was because they made changes to the core game, kind of like trait changes and the npe, rather than just release more content that the players were asking for. Of course most of those games eventually released some good content but it was too late and the game already had received its bad reputation and still had the changes in place that caused that bad reputation.

There is only one way to keep an MMO going so that a company can keep milking the players for money, and that is to keep churning out content. If you already have a game people like then you should not change it, you should add to it. Of course little QoL things could help also but the npe, traits, and megaserver are not little changes and really need more time spent on refining them or in the case of the npe rolling it back.

Vayne.8563:

shadow.6174:

Yes, there was a patch that fixed several things. But a big part of it still feels wrong and needs some action. Even after that fixes the system still treats people as having low IQ, things are still dumb and non-sense, it still have too much hand-holding and too much restrictions where it was never needed.

The fix done feels something like when someone holds your hand to help you to cross the street, then you tell them that they are gripping your hand too much and all what they do is only lessen it a very little bit, but still holding it tight as if supposing you aren’t able enough to do it on your own.

But there are people with low IQs. You’re probably a smart guy and smart people don’t realize that most people are average. There’s this thread right now on reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2vqowu/new_player_with_some_questions/

This guy is level 15 and doesn’t know what to do. He just doesn’t. Now I’m not saying he’s not intelligent. I’m saying he could be quite smart, but he’s from other games that give you very clear breadcrumb trails. This game doesn’t.

So any help you can give players that aren’t as quick as you are isn’t a bad thing. Frustrated people do leave games.

These changes weren’t meant for you and an experienced player can travel through them very quickly.

That’s why I say that our feedback, saying that we shouldn’t be treated like we’re stupid..well sure, that’s what the most intelligent people would think.

How about we try to be a little more understanding to those that haven’t picked it up so easily.

From someone who advocates a lot about not every game is for everyone please explain why we need to cater to these people. This game was already one of the easiest to pick up and play MMOs on the market. If he can’t get it then I’m pretty sure MMOs aren’t his thing. There is no reason to dumb the game down for someone who most likely won’t be hanging around anyways. There was already a starter area for every race, why not just add to that so its a better tutorial.

If you want the trinity then make your own groups. Update them for what you are looking for. Or even better make a guild for trinity style players and go tackle everything with your 1 DPS, 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 whatever you wants.

But quit asking for everyone else to be forced in to your way of playing just because you are to kitten lazy to do the above.

Aidan Savage.2078:

@phys, of course I was swimming in gold. My mesmer was leveled, geared, and traited, by virtue of all the gold I had after selling a Chaos Gun for 600-something gold. I’ve got like 24 gold now because Anet’s been releasing stuff I felt necessary for my characters (namely that ram backpack that I wish would skin over engi kits….). I’d have more gold if I wasnt working fulltime and only had weekends off :c

Exactly his point, your average player is not going to be able to level, gear up, and have full access to traits and skills in the same way your Mesmer did. Only the very lucky or those that are swimming in gold from other means can do what you did.

Behellagh.1468:

Launching the 2nd thread simply removes all of the “why won’t they admit the new trait system is horrible” comments. They’ve now admitted that. The story that they couldn’t say they agree with us revolves around the concept that the change will be released along side the expansion.

Now how much they considered the more thought out responses from the first thread while designing Trait 3.0 or they are running open loop in their echo chamber that keeps saying “they’ll love this”, who knows.

I would love to see them ask which of three similar concepts of the re-do we like the most (one of them not being the original trait system, sorry). This way forum players can feel some agency in the change rather than getting another severely flawed system shoved down our throats while being told it’s good for you, much like your parents did with broccoli.

I always liked broccoli. Of course they wouldn’t give us the original traits system in the list because that would be a way to have metrics that say they screwed up so it will never happen. But then again them letting us choose between any amount of ideas will never happen anyways either. They will drop a new system with out feedback and for better or for worse it will be what everyone is stuck with for the next year(s). Hopefully they will actually support the product this time and actually spend time during that next year refining it, doubtful though.

Ojyh.9842:

Other than speculating and exposing our wishes, there’s nothing we can really do with the informations we have now.

I don’t know if you discussed about all this here, (sorry couldn’t read everything) but what I am waiting for, since they made the trait respec free last year, is more about build diversity and easily switch between different kind of builds in different situations :

1 – Templates like in GW1
I guess everybody agrees with that, and I really think it may be coming soon !
It makes sense since specializations are not permanent.

2 – Detach Traits and Stats
I want to be able to chose my traits without having to select specific stats for that. The idea wasn’t really bad at first (although not particularly interesting), but it is so poorly executed that I just want to get rid of this system that doesn’t make sense anymore. It is important to keep the trait lines, but I don’t want to have stats tied to them.
Once traits and stats are separated they could totally create/eliminate/rebalance some stats to put an end to the zerker meta and create dependencies between characters to bring back teamplay and roles in a party without having to go back to a pure trinity system. (also reworking healing skills and dodging will be important for that)

Then we should be able to select our stats otherwise, and NEVER have two of them tied together ! (currently we have 2 stats per trait line) It cripples build diversity and participates into making characters autonomous which is one of the things that lead to the zerker meta. (you know, different roles in a party=group coordination=dependencies between characters != autonomous characters)
So trait points and stat points would be two different things.

Sadly, as we saw the Revenant’s trait page in the PoI of this week, everything seems to have stayed the same. But there is a chance they just didn’t want to show us some of the changes they made before they announce them. I still have hope !

3 – Skill points to buy Traits
We have TONS of skillpoints that we are not using. We should be able to buy traits with them. It would be cool if it was one possibility among others (those which already exist could be kept).

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No, how about we go back to the cost before they changed the trait system the first time which is less than 5g and 0 skill points needed for all traits. Because we don’t have tons of skill points to spread through every alt and they are reducing ways to get them. Incase you did not read the first masteries announcement, you will no longer level up after level 80 and so you will not get skill points for it anymore. They need to ditch the high cost to get traits and go back to a low cost system. This way people can go back to having build experimentation and not be stuck with single builds or even worse a handful of traits that they just happened to pick up along the way.

Nemitri.8172:

It’s really simple, just revert the trait back to what it used to be but:

-Make it so we gain back 1 trait point per level starting at level 11.
-No more unlocking traits, that was a horrible decision with horrible consequences, people ended up with few traits unlocked and poor knowledge of their class and people were incentivized to rush to level 80 because otherwise you are basically useless.
-Keep the free trait respec outside combat free (this was seriously the only good thing that came with the change)
-Reintroduce the cost to unlock trait tiers (so class trainers don’t become usless once again).
-Make it so that once you are level 80 1 click to assign a trait point puts 5 instead of one (making it so we have to click less for the same thing, and newcomers don’t have to suffer because of that, you please both camps).

In the old system if you assigned traits it would allocate the trait points needed. So you really didn’t need to click that much. I agree with everything else. Roll back to the original trait system but leave the respec button. They could leave the new grandmaster traits attached to tasks but I would not have them attached to any timed events or event chains that are dependent on special circumstances.

runeblade.7514:

seabhac.5346:

I sit here eating a delicious salad (no, not a Sylvari minion), reminiscing about the early days of the game and how fun and rewarding it was.

This was a time before the nerfing (drops, chests, farming) and the institution of the redesigned elements of the game we didn’t ask for: NPE, Dailies and Traits revamps.

I remember how truly fun it felt to start new alts, in every profession, and explore everything! Weapons, builds, the world and just feel so rewarded with loot.

That very first headstart day, the chest from the Shadow Behemoth event dropped so many shinies into my inventory that it nearly filled completely.

Black Lion Chest keys dropped by the ton! The chests themselves dropped one or more keys. It was thrilling to open chests of any kind, anywhere in the world.

I really miss those days, when the game just felt really great to play because it was truly fun and didn’t seem like a grind.

Playing the same content over and over, and getting the same lackluster drops ad nauseum, is a grind, and not fun.

Speculating, and asking for information, over and over, ad nauseum on the forums, is a grind, and not fun.

Games are supposed to be fun. This game used to be fun. The only thing that keeps my interest hanging by a thin thread these days, is that I really like my characters and WvW.

I’ve been taking a break, only logging in to retrieve the daily jingle box. That’s it. I gotta say, the games I’ve been playing outside of this one are actually fun.

I’ve missed that thrill of an actual great loot drop, whether it be gold or items. Playing other games has brought that feeling back, and it really feels good.

So good in fact, that when I do happen to think about playing beyond just logging into this game for the daily jingle box, that overwhelming ‘not fun’ feeling strikes and I just can’t do it anymore. The other games are just more fun right now, and Anet has the ‘we can’t talk about it’ communication policy, and the NPE, Traits 2 and Dailies 3 revamps to thank for that.

From what I’m reading, NPE or trait revamp isn’t the reason why you aren’t having fun. You aren’t having fun because you aren’t getting large amount of new content.

I like NPE and trait revamp.

I think its obvious what he said and its not about content. Its about the changes they have made since launch that made this game not as fun as it was at launch. I feel exactly the same. The nerfs to all the rewards to increase grind and the change of core systems mostly to increase grind have ruined the game for me. Its just not fun anymore.

Sure more content helps but the issues to me is that on the outside the game still looks the same. Same pretty graphics, same fast paced combat. But the heart of the game is not about just roaming around and getting decent rewards for doing what ever you want or feel like doing. You can still do what ever you want but you don’t get the same rewards that you did at launch. I used to level my guys by roaming around and going to the places I liked. If I did that now I would not be anywhere near the same level of power at level as I was on my first few characters. I would not have all my traits and skills like I did on my first guys. I would not have the level of gear and currency. If I EotM train my way to level 80 I might be close to the same rewards but then I’m not just roaming around doing what I want.

Many people don’t mind all of these changes but to me it makes the game feel like a different game. A game I would not have bought. It might not be as grindy as some Asian grinders but it is still extremely more grindy than it was at launch. Sure some more content is always welcome but It doesn’t fix the core systems they ruined for me. And neither does them telling me they hear us and are doing something. For all I know the next system is going to force me to do even more things I don’t want to do. I don’t understand why they can’t just suck up their pride and roll back all these garbage changes to the things that people did not have issues with. Then they can go back to adding content with out breaking those systems.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

OK…

---

deep breath***

I want to have Wolf’s outlook right now. I really do. And believe me, my frustration isn’t with any one individual at Anet since they are, at the end of the day, just doing their jobs to the best of their ability.

My problem right now is with Anet’s overall handling of not only this issue that’s been festering since April 2014, but some other things which we’ve learned with regard to the xpac.

For this issue though…this one, I am beyond annoyed that this has gotten to this point. Am I glad they are doing a complete rework of the trait system? Sure, maybe. I can’t say if I actually like the idea since i have no idea the direction they are going in. Just that they are going in a direction. Given some other decisions Anet has made in a vacuum, this doesn’t leave me with many warm fuzzies. The track record just doesn’t support a positive conclusion. If they acknowledged it to be such a problem over the last year, why didn’t Anet do more during that time to reduce the more burdensome things of the current trait system? Reduce costs? Easier to find events? Less broken events? Anything. Instead nothing was really done except a few tweaks for a handful of traits early on and then nothing else.

So now we get word that the trait system as we know it will be replaced by a new simpler one on live. OK. What does that mean? Seriously. At this point, ten months on, can we get more than “somethin’ new is a-comin’”? If its still so far from actually being done or completed enough that you can’t give any details about it then SAY SO. In plain english. Just say, “hey this is still being worked out, and we don’t have something solid enough to talk about, but it is coming” and not “we have a new simpler system that will be replacing the current system on live”. The second comment there implies you have something ready to go into live, and if its that ready then you should be able to give us some details.

If its not that close to ready though, let us know that too. Stop dangling these things in front of us and then going silent. If its not going to be ready for prime time before the release of HoT, let us know that too, even if the reason is “we want to see how the Mastery system works in the wild before introducing the new trait system.” At least that is an honest answer that some of us might be able to get behind as it at least seems to be logistically sound. Just stop being silent.

And worse of all, please PLEASE don’t go and drop the updated system on us without so much as a word before it happens. I’m sure Anet wouldn’t do something like this as its a major core feature of the game, but once again I’m trying to cover all my bases here.

I agree, if they are actually working on something they need to give us details. If they aren’t they should say so also. They just really need to give us details now so that they don’t end up doing what SOE did with SWG. SOE made a change to their game (called the combat upgrade)that was close to what players wanted but executed poorly, much like what we have had for the last year with GW2. Then when they realized the changes were hurting the game they changed everything again into completely different system that turned the game into a completely different game. This caused a mass exodus that could have been prevented if SOE would have worked with the players rather than just dump something in our laps and tell us to like it or leave. I feel arenanet is on the same path and I don’t see them changing. All it takes is communication. We the players will let you know every single bad thing that can come of something. We are good at that.

Ashen.2907:

Traits were not inherently tied to the post 80 XP bar before. Focusing on masteries, skill points, etc as part of a discussion specifically about traits implies a connection. The strength of the connection may be up in the air, but the connection has been implied.

Of course the other option is that the decision to suggest masteries as a focus point in a discussion about traits could, in theory at least, have been an attempt to change the subject (which would be odd since the attempt to change the subject would then have been made in the very post where the subject was defined) or an attempt to troll. I do not believe wither of these alternate options.

Note that this thread is not titled, “Future Progression Systems,” it is titled to be about traits and specifically to make reference to a previous thread on the topic of the current trait system.

Gaile linked the only new information we have on traits. Which is that we no longer get skill points at level 80, which may not be a change that would affect the trait system at launch but it is a change that will affect the current trait system(in a very horrible way I might add). That little tiny bit of information just happened to be in an announcement about masteries. Gaile put that tiny little bit of information in an easy to see place so those that didn’t read or just skimmed the announcement would know, something in there pertains to traits. So yes you are just speculating and saying its implication. There just isn’t enough information to imply anything else except that they used the small tiny bit of info to get people to read the announcement.

Believe me I think its complete kitten crap that they locked the old thread and tell us to discuss the new system that has extremely little information released. Plus that information tells us nothing about the new trait system that people have been asking to be changed except for maybe the removal of a skill point cost to unlocking traits. And that’s only if they actually keep traits in the game in a similar form. But I don’t think Gaile purposely sent the thread of topic in the OP. Like I said before, I think she was just linking us to the only bit of information released on the new trait system. Even if it was tiny and irrelevant. That information just happened to be in an announcement about masteries.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

@Ashen: Thank you. i was running out of ways to point out that this has been a cumulative message from Anet. Fact is, if traits or rather the new simplified system had nothing to do with how skills, specializations and masteries were set to work then they would not speak of them in the same category. If the link is simply “they are in the same game and have something to do with customizing your toons”, then they need to stop lumping them together and just give us info about the new traits system. Period. My stance still holds that if they have enough in the bag to start talking about it, then they have enough details to share with us, and if they don’t then they need to say as much now and not continue this carrot on a stick game that they’ve been pushing since last April.

Barring any details about this new simplified system they should at least be able to tell us (based on where they are now and where they see themselves going on this project) if their projected release of this new simple trait system is going to be before or after the release of HoT. Seriously, this is project management basics.

I think they lumped them together because changing the level 80 mechanic to no longer gain normal xp, levels, and skill points and to instead be a mastery bar with mastery xp is a change that affects all systems in the game(skills, traits, and the new masteries). So when talking about their new system they gave us a small idea of how it will work. Which is at level 80 we will be able to start gaining xp for masteries and that the mastery xp bar will replace the level xp bar. This doesn’t imply anything except 2 things.

• That a way to get skill points is gone.
• That we start the grind for masteries at level 80.

There is no other implications and everything else is speculation. I have tons of ideas in my own head and even posted in the original trait thread what I thought when I read the new information. But even that is just speculation as there just isn’t enough information yet.

There are some big questions that have come up from the announcement that we no longer get skill points for leveling after level 80.

• Are skill points still going to be in the game?
• Will skill tomes still be in the game?
• What will skill points be used for?
• Are Skills going to stay the same and still require skill points?
• Are crafting recipes and mystic forge recipes still going to require skill points?
• Will Crafting and mystic forge recipes get updated to better reflect the new state of skill points?
• Is everything with skill points staying the same except for the removal of gaining skill points past level 80?

Edit to add:
One question that has come to my mind is
Is the trait system being removed from the game and we will have a linear specialization system in its place?

Vayne.8563:

Halvorn.9831:

Vayne.8563:

The 50% of the people who haven’t looked twice at their trait screen since launch. I remember one of the devs saying something about how many people NEVER looked at a trait screen. It was an amazing number.

You surely are with me when I am saying that a solution to this problem cannot be to make acquiring these traits even more of an effort.

Having said that I think the direction of this discussion is somewhat misleading. It is not important whether an absolute majority of players do or don’t like this system. Those who don’t even care for traits at all, are they the target audience?

What about those who care of the traits? Do you think there is a tendency how they think of the current trait system?

Actually, you haven’t been following the conversation if you think I’m for the new trait system, because I’m not. I’ve never been. I’ve been vocally against it.

But then someone comes along and starts saying how 10 months is a long time and Anet doesn’t care about the game, or whatever today’s attack is and I think…10 months really isn’t that long in programming, particularly for something that doesn’t have a major affect on most players.

I’m not saying it doesn’t need to be changed. I’m saying that it’s unreasonable to expect the to have run right out and changed it.

There are many small changes they could have done to make it more bearable until they are ready to release the new new system. Things like remove the skill point cost and reduce the gold cost or attached the tasks to unlock traits to better suited traits. They have done absolutely nothing in over 6 months to better the current system and extremely little in the few months between going live and the 6 months of nothing. One person could have easily updated one tasks per week. They are trigger events in the code that have already been written. For some of the tasks it would be as easy as replacing a few words in some if then statements. The fact that arenanet keeps on implementing new systems and design changes and then does almost nothing to support them is appalling.

My point is there is much they could have done and little that has been done. It will be over year by the time the trait system is changed and we have no information on if it will be better or worse and people will have been stuck with a crappy system which gets even crappier support for all of that time. You can say it doesn’t majorly affect people but you are wrong. This is a poison that is slowly killing the game. If any of these current system and design changes had improved their retention then they wouldn’t be redoing the system again. Obviously it affected their bottom line enough that they are changing it again and that means it must be affecting tons of people in a negative way. I am a huge proponent of correlation does not equal causation but in this case I think it does.

Schneider.8615:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

[snip]

I find his post pretty clear.

Hey folks,
“Now that the HOT is out of the bag, we’re able to update this thread with more details. With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.
In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.
Thank you for all your passionate feedback on this topic – it not only helped our dev team lead to this decision, but has played a large role in helping us define how to build our exciting new account based mastery system for end-game progression in PvE as well.”

It tells us that the new system will be simplified and following the trend of their account wide mastery system.

It tells us that specialisations need a system revamp to work traits and skill, since the new sub-classes will use new traits and skills.

It tells us that details on exactly how it will work are coming later closer to the release.

To me that says more than enough.

Saying its going to be simplified and making it more simplified are 2 different things. I remember they told us that they were changing the old trait system into our current system to “make it easier to experiment with traits”. Which we all know was exactly the opposite since you can’t experiment with what you don’t have. So until they give us actual details its all speculation especially everything they said. Normally I might agree with you but this last year arenanet has said one thing and done another. You might still believe the hype but I will not.

Basaltface.2786:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Here is Colin’s post in its entirety:

Hey folks,
Now that the HOT is out of the bag, we’re able to update this thread with more details. With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

Thank you for all your passionate feedback on this topic – it not only helped our dev team lead to this decision, but has played a large role in helping us define how to build our exciting new account based mastery system for end-game progression in PvE as well.

passionate is an understatement… more like close to a world war…but that aside… HELL YEA! Bout time this evil force of darkness gets into the trashbin where it belongs…

I’m guessing that you are talking about the last trait system change that needs to go in to the trashbin and not the long thread with little response from devs with tons of discussion on the good and bad of the current trait system.

In that case I agree with you. Currently though there is very little information on the next change to the trait system. All we do know is that at level 80 we no longer get skill points and instead get mastery points. Which doesn’t say much at all. The new changes could still end being worse than the current system or they could end up being better than the original system from launch. It would be nice if they would start giving us some details like are traits being removed from the game? Are they still going to cost skill points and gold? Are they still going to be unlockable via tasks like the current system? Are we going to have to earn traits through the new mastery system?

Until they start answering these questions all we can do is speculate based on their past behaviors. Which makes many of us not very hopeful.

BentoDetective.6491:

Tachenon.5270:

HawkMeister.4758:

Although I´m confused how you´ve come to the conclusion post 80 skill point earning will be gone.
I´ve seen nothing alluding to this.

Makes no sense either unless they want to completely abolish XP earning after max level.
Surely that won´t happen, right?

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system

“The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns. When this ability is unlocked, your character’s experience bar will change to become a Mastery training bar while in PvE zones. This bar will track your progress on training the Mastery track you currently have selected, showing both the abilities you are training toward and those already earned from the track. To see all your Mastery tracks, spend Mastery points, and change which Mastery you are currently training, click the Mastery training bar to bring up the Mastery tray. Because the Mastery training bar completely replaces the experience bar, players who’ve reached level 80 will no longer gain levels but will instead train Masteries. This means characters that have reached level 80 will no longer gain skill points through leveling. Skill points will be added as rewards across high-level content to offset this change.”

There will still be some way to get skill points, but not via leveling.

Thanks for finding the quote, I’m too lazy to grab it .

Reading a post from a thread in the LS section, someone already said something similar to me. Long story short, they also purposed to have an interchangeable system to allow for acquisition of either skill points or mastery points.

If this option feature gets implemented, I’m sure it would please the crowd (on both sides). But, I don’t have much faith in Anet to change something they’ve already developed. I do hope Anet will add a significant increase to gaining skill points elsewhere.

Why should we have to choose between 2 different systems. The grind for skill points is bad enough since it makes traits and skills compete with each other. Making it also compete with the new mastery system also would just make things worse.

Palador.2170:

Well folks, the blog about Masteries is up.

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns.

And that line does not sound promising. Lets hope that there’s more to come that runs counter to that line.

The blog: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

After reading that, I feel like they are charging for feature changes. I now have even lower expectations for the xpac and the trait system. With the new expansion I could see charging for new pve world maps (with new dungeons and world encounters), new professions, and new races. The things like features should just be inherent to every character. Like in most other games when an expansion releases the players that do not buy the expansion still get the benefit of any new features, they are just excluded from any new content(like maps, dungeons and raids and any new professions or races).

Now on just traits, the removal of skill points from leveling past 80 means they will either be changing how they are used as a currency or they are making acquiring them in to a huge grind or both. Which makes me think the coming trait change might be removing the traits from unlocks and making those events give skill points instead. This will remove the option of unlocking with out paying gold and skill points. You will probably still have to grind all the same BS to get the skill points but you will still get the option of choosing what you want to unlock from the npc. To make this more multiple account friendly I see them making skill points an account shared currency. Which keeps the grind for unlocking all traits and skills but makes it easier than the current system to get a single decent build going. This all fits in line with arenanets current track record. I hope I’m wrong as this isn’t what I want its just what I see them doing.

runeblade.7514:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Quit trolling,

I enjoy the current trait system, so that makes me a troll. Take your hostility and non-discussion somewhere else.

No you are trolling because of the belittling of others opinions and the flat out lies that you keep posting. Opinions are one thing and its fine and dandy if you like the new system but don’t act like there is not any issues when the devs have come out them selves and said there is.

Good job snipping just the quit trolling and leaving everything else out that is not "non-discussion. That post was probably the most hypocritical post I have seen on these forums. Again I say, good job.

runeblade.7514:

DarkSpirit.7046:

I have always thought this trait unlocking system was counter productive.

1. It discourages build experimentation.
2. It discourages you from playing in different formats by optimizing your builds. If I have bought traits for PvE, I would have to pay for new traits for WvW/PvP if I want to optimize my build.
3. It gives an unfair advantage to older characters who do not have to unlock traits, especially in WvW/PvP as they do not have the current restrictions to optimize their builds, like the new characters do.

1. It also encourages build experimentation. I found myself experimenting when I get a new trait. Not all players decides to fiddle with everything from the moment they unlock a large sets of traits. Some players like to experiment a few at a time.
2. It also encourages optimizing builds. When it is easier to experiment builds, it encourages optimizing builds.
3. Not really. An unfair advantage is when you are not using the meta build and the other players are using meta builds. You only need a minimum of 7 traits. Any player can afford that much.

Quit trolling, if you have no traits then there is no experimentation. The old way I tried out tons of builds as I leveled even with being forced to pay the small fee to respect my traits. The new way you can not experiment in any way near to what you could in the old way.

Plus it does give an absolute advantage to anyone with characters created before the April patch. Whether they were sitting at level one, already capped at level 80, or anywhere in between. That is because when they hit those key levels they get all the traits unlocked for a very small fee compared to any newly created player.

For example, I have a level 20 necro created before the April patch. If you newly create a necro and get it to the same level and then we level together, I will be able to play with every single adept trait as soon as we get our second trait point. How many will you get to play with? 1, 2, maybe 3. Are the traits that you have acquired related to the weapons and skills you are currently using? Guess what, mine are. Guess what I’m doing as soon as I get a trait point. I’m experimenting. Ya know what you are doing? You are looking for those few traits that work for the 1 build you looked up on line. I don’t call that experimenting but I do call it me having an advantage. If I can do more damage or have reduced cool downs or have added effects to my abilities and you don’t, everything else being equal(armor, weapons, and level) I win. While you are still searching for traits for your build or buying them, I am playing the content I want as opposed to what you are getting told to play. Plus I am spending the gold you are spending on traits on better gear.

Everyone likes to only test a few traits at a time. Its called testing and refining a build. With my guy I can test and switch it if I don’t find it to my liking. You will have to stick with it till you find something better.

Of course if you are a vet and have tons of SP scrolls and gold to buy every trait then this won’t affect you as much but then once again that is called an advantage over new players.

Gregori.5807:

I am cautiously optimistic about the trait changes… very cautiously. The current iteration was supposed to be an improvement after all. While I am happy that a change will be made, I can’t just jump to happy mode on it.

The problem, however, is not in any borked change. The problem is that, if everyone hates the changes, we have proof that, most likely, we will be ignored.

The only chance we have that we will not be ignored is that everyone will be funneled through the changes. If they are as bad as the April change were, the yelling might be loud enough to make them fix it… or not.

If its more bad changes then those of us that dislike the changes need to take it to third party sites. Since that is the only thing that has been shown to get them moving in the right direction.

Devata.6589:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

captainteemo.6537:

After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.

I did play other games before GW2 and I recently also did play another MMO for a while again. Including MMO’s that are part of the so called grindy games, but the matter of fact is that for the part I like in mmo’s, my preferred game-play (And that is the important part here) GW2 is by far the most grindy of them all. So much that I don’t do that part of the game in GW2, what is sad as GW2 is known for this part (cosmetics).

So please don’t come here and tell people who complain about grind don’t know what they are talking about. They do.

Watch this.

I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.

Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.

In some cases, I wanted those stats more than I need ascended gear in Guild Wars 2.

In the end, it’s all just a matter of what you consider grind. I thought Lotro was far more grindy than Guild Wars 2. DDO is certainly more grindy than Guild Wars 2. And I certainly felt like I was grinding in AOC.

You run a raid in DDO 20 times and you are guaranteed a list of choices not to mention many of the raids you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a loot drop and many times people get something they already have and put it up for grabs to the party. So in 60 days you are just about guaranteed to get your item. Crafting items and upgrading epics can feel like a grind but in all of those you know if you keep at it you will get what you want eventually.

The only guarantee in GW2 is that with enough gold you can get what you want. The only thing to work towards is gold. Save up gold to make this item. Now what do you do? Move on to something else to get the next item? Nope. You start grinding more gold doing the exact same thing you were doing. I prefer my grinds to change not be the exact same thing for the life of the game.

When I started doing dungeons I liked the way you earned tokens. It was nice to have a goal and know that when you reached it you start working on something else. It goes very nicely with the wardrobe. It would be nice if there was more of this, where you can work towards something other than gold.

Still, tokens are also just a currency like gold. What imho is a nice side thing you earn along the way but the mail goal / item should be or some rng drop or a guaranteed drop for completing something like a dungeon or a quest.

I agree some what. Tokens are just another currency like gold but they are basically a guaranteed drop. You run it x times and you know that you will get the item. I do agree that it would be nice if there were more rewards like when finishing the personal story and getting your choice of a pact weapon. I think there should be more of both of those types of rewards. They can keep the RNG for normal loot drops from mobs and chests but it would be nice to have a whole lot less of the BLTC RNG.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

captainteemo.6537:

After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.

I did play other games before GW2 and I recently also did play another MMO for a while again. Including MMO’s that are part of the so called grindy games, but the matter of fact is that for the part I like in mmo’s, my preferred game-play (And that is the important part here) GW2 is by far the most grindy of them all. So much that I don’t do that part of the game in GW2, what is sad as GW2 is known for this part (cosmetics).

So please don’t come here and tell people who complain about grind don’t know what they are talking about. They do.

Watch this.

I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.

Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.

In some cases, I wanted those stats more than I need ascended gear in Guild Wars 2.

In the end, it’s all just a matter of what you consider grind. I thought Lotro was far more grindy than Guild Wars 2. DDO is certainly more grindy than Guild Wars 2. And I certainly felt like I was grinding in AOC.

You run a raid in DDO 20 times and you are guaranteed a list of choices not to mention many of the raids you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a loot drop and many times people get something they already have and put it up for grabs to the party. So in 60 days you are just about guaranteed to get your item. Crafting items and upgrading epics can feel like a grind but in all of those you know if you keep at it you will get what you want eventually.

The only guarantee in GW2 is that with enough gold you can get what you want. The only thing to work towards is gold. Save up gold to make this item. Now what do you do? Move on to something else to get the next item? Nope. You start grinding more gold doing the exact same thing you were doing. I prefer my grinds to change not be the exact same thing for the life of the game.

When I started doing dungeons I liked the way you earned tokens. It was nice to have a goal and know that when you reached it you start working on something else. It goes very nicely with the wardrobe. It would be nice if there was more of this, where you can work towards something other than gold.

Arietta The Broken.1875:

New accounts get more pop ups than older accounts too. WvW and PvP are also limited on the UI until you reach certain levels. As are Vistas and Skill points.

(WvW and PvP can still be access at level 1 on new accounts but you have to travel to LA to get there)

I genuinely feel that the NPE was a good thing for new players. However it doesn’t work well for veterans and really needs a lot of tweaking.

And where is this tweaking since the NPE was launched. Like the OP mentioned, where is the simple button at to turn off popups like they have in every other game on the market. That should have been there when they pushed the NPE on everyone. There are tons of simple little tweaks that could and should have been done since the feature packs launched and they have done very little. It is simply half – assed and arenanet should be ashamed.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Welcome to NPE (New Player Experience). And if you hate it, know you’re not alone. There’s an army of us here.

^^^ What that guy said.

Many of us are wondering what is going on at Arenanet. It seems like the guy making the decisions doesn’t play the game or just doesn’t play MMO games in general.

Funny watching people getting excited over being told wait another 6 months. They could have been doing small updates this entire time to make it better for the mean time that takes very little work. All Colin did is drop some hype that things will be better come xpac time with out giving any details on what to expect. That means it will be over a year that they left this game with a broken system with out supporting it. I can’t believe anyone would want to give their hard earned money to someone with this kind of track record. Something about a fool and his money comes to mind.

I will start giving them my money again when they actually start doing things to fix broken systems and not just tell us they are aware of our concern. Like I said before, they could have tried to make this system better for the mean time, instead they have done nothing and will continue to do nothing for at least another 6 months. And then who knows what we will get. It might be better it might be worse. With out details there is nothing to get excited for.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Wow.

“Please, please, please give us a status update, even if it’s only, “We’re still actively thinking about this issue and will give details when we can.”

Such a post is made. Reactions?.

“That’s not good enough.”

I still think the Mike O’Brien Gag Policy is a mistake. But, it’s moments like this that makes me think twice.

People want to know if they are going to do something about it or not. This response has not said anything except we keep seeing this blight on the forums and we want people to know we keep seeing it. So we are still waiting for an answer to the question.

Are they ever going to do anything or is this how it is going to stay?

A truthful answer to that question will do a lot.

If the answer is this is how it is going stay, then people like me will stop posting and criticizing because we know its time to move on. Using silence to drag out hope just keeps people like me around to complain. I think it would be better for arenanet and ncsoft to be honest and just tell us.

DeceiverX.8361:

Has anyone just thought of the idea of removing the level gating of the tiers themselves and just returning to the old system in that you get 1 point every 5 levels starting at 15, which is the targeted “end” of the NPE, so new players can get their hands dirtied a bit with traits?

I feel like this would simplify a lot of questions currently held by new players:
Q: “What are traits?”
A: Well you see…

Q: “When do I get them? It just says they’re locked.”
A: “You get them when you reach level 30.”

Q: “Why do I have to wait so long; I just finished the NPE and want to dive right in, and what do I do in the meantime to reach level 30?”
A: “Well, I’m not sure about the first part, but you can grind map completion and EoTM I guess.”

Q: “Okay, so I’m level 35, but the next tier is locked now. The next tier’s traits are really conducive to how I’m playing, though, and I want to feel stronger. Why can’t I play the way I want?”
A: “I don’t know. I guess because ANet thinks the Master and Grandmaster traits are actually the strongest despite them not being so?”

Q: “So wait, when I tried asking for help on my build, people told me I need X trait from the Grandmaster line. So I can’t play in this way until I reach endgame?”
A: “Correct. You should have stated you were new to the game and not the class before asking. There’s a difference.”

Q: “So how to I beat Y content if my build doesn’t work until 80?”
A: “Get new traits and utility skills using Z strategy.”

Q: “But I don’t have any more skill points. Where do I get more?”
A: “From the blue things on the map.”

Q: “I’ve done them all just for my trait unlocks. Is there another way?”
A: “WvW or PvP can give you some for getting kills.”

Q: “But I don’t know how to play this class well in WvW or PvP because I’m new, and I’m not really interested in WvW or PvP. Is there no other way?”
A: “Leveling up can.”

Q: “How do I level up without being able to beat Y content which I’m currently stuck on?”
A: “Grind out levels I guess via mobs.”

Q: “Where can I do that quickly/easily?”
A: “You can’t; there is no grinding mobs for EXP in GW2 as per the design of the game.”

Q: “Is this for real? If so this game is awful to new players.”
A: “Yes.”

- As per my experience with 12+ new players/real life friends who joined after the trait rework. Currently none of them play/all have it uninstalled (and have since returned to WoW and other games) because they saw very little in terms of progression and the road too long to make it worthwhile.

The game was originally sold and marketed as “play how you want, when you want.” This is why we have standardized PvP arenas, up-scaling in WvW, and so on. Why is the creative vision which made this game successful moving away from this, and treating our new players like idiots?

Because some genius is looking at metrics and doesn’t understand that correlation does not equal causation. The only way to truly find out why things correlate is to get more data(like actually talking to the playerbase) but then the metrics might show incompetence so they will not go down that path.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Xillllix.3485:

Would be better to revert to the old system, which was better anyway.

Nope, would rather not lose new Masteries which were added so we can have the old system back. Especially with the need to pay to change them.

Both of those 2 things are singular changes that have nothing to do with how you acquire traits in either the old or new trait system and in fact could both be had with the old system and function just as they do right now. So saying you don’t want to revert because of losing those 2 changes makes absolutely no sense. There is no reason we can’t get rid of the bad and still keep the good.

The only defense I have seen for these changes is people used to do stuff that defenders of the change didn’t want to do and they like it now that those people are forced to do what the defenders want. Everything else is just word play and focusing on only one thing rather than the big picture that the OP brought up. Which is we have less choices and you will get less rewards for playing how you want today as compared to playing how you want when the game launched. No matter what anyone says, this is fact. Many of us are waiting for a good explanation why it has become this way.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

I am speaking about playing all the time. And frankly these changes to Dailies have not motivated me to login more often. I used to accomplish my Dailies while I played. Now that I can’t, I sometimes don’t bother logging in when I normally would. I don’t feel like running around doing things I don’t want to do. And if I’m not going to do the Dailies anyway, why bother at all?

Thanks. That was my point. If the change to the dailies means you don’t log in as much, that would mean that the old dailies provided more motivation.

No, that is not true. The old Dailies fit in with what I was doing anyway – they didn’t motivate me to play. The new forced choices are DEmotivating me.

Have it your way. You’re wired differently than other people. You can get angry enough over something changing that you’ll stop playing a game you (presumably) enjoyed, even though the aspect that changed did not matter to you.

There is a list of things that seems to be getting longer with every update that removes choices and de-motivates people. Sometimes its something small like a piece of straw that finally breaks that camels back.

Lishtenbird.2814:

This is what I currently suggest:

Lishtenbird.2814:

One more try on improving the daily tasks, PvE only:

• Daily Nice View
  • View a vista in {map},
  • complete a jumping puzzle in {region},
  • or kill 50 monsters across the world.

• Daily Resource Manager
  • Gather 4 {resource type} in {map},
  • gather 15 resources across the world,
  • or salvage 50 items.

• Daily Heroic Deeds
  • Complete 4 events in {map},
  • complete 10 events across the world,
  • or complete a dungeon in explorable mode.

• Daily Proficient Fighter
  • Apply 20 conditions to enemies,
  • cleanse 20 conditions from yourself,
  • or dodge 20 attacks.

• Daily Mad Quaggan’s Pick
  • Kill a specific world boss / complete a specific tier of Fractals.

At the moment I think that something like that could please everyone: those who need a daily goal and play just a bit, those who play a lot but prefer specific content, those who hunt for APs, and those who level their 1st characters.

I see it as a fair compromise between different kinds of players. Want it fast? Do the specific short task. Need guidance? Do the specific short task, or a less specific middle task. Want to play how you want? Okay, but you have to play for a considerable time.

This way, the part of people who play just a bit will still be in the zones and will still perform the specific tasks. But those who are contributing to metrics by spending hours online playing how they want are not left out of the system anymore. It’s best of both worlds. Because choice and options.

I love this idea. I hate people saying you can’t please everyone. You may not be able to please every single last person but pleasing the large majority is doable.

rozowykubek.9703:

Rauderi.8706:

Gregori.5807:

Traits matter to some classes as you are leveling. I have felt this pain firsthand with a Mesmer (I want to do JPs with my wife on her mesmer).

I gave this system the benefit of the doubt and tried it out via leveling a Guardian with full traits..

I hated most of the process and vowed to not do it again.

However, as I said, I decided to roll a Mesmer. Playing this toon with no traits was much more painful than a Guardian. It was painful enough that I bought my trait tree.

People who say that we don’t “need” traits at lower levels are correct… technically. However, if you want to level alone, or have to level alone, you are going to feel the pain. For classes like this, while its true that you may not need traits during leveling, without them you are going to have a much more difficult and less enjoyable time.

Even with a buddy, the experience was painful. Most of the trait unlocks were above our level, and it made our play time very disjointed.

It must be pain when someone took your toys away but I can not imagine possessing all traits by level, let’s say 30 0_o it would be game destroying IMO. Sorry but honestly I do not get what all fuss is about but I have feeling that you all want “easy” time. Now everything must be “casual friendly”, “easy”, “buy it now”, “have all now” to me it’s fun when there is challenge, and you have to think how to get something/there/ et cetera.
I wish old times come back, where every game was hard

edit:
there is solution, make suggestion to create item in store “one click to 80”

People are asking for the game to go back to how it was at launch and how it was until the patch last April that ruined it. Its obvious you have no idea w t f you are talking about so please do not comment with out doing some research.

If they can’t or won’t go back to how it was then arenanet needs to put some effort into the new trait system as there is plenty that needs work. This thread has tons of ideas on what they could do to make it a better experience.

Code.8615:

The thing is, people aren’t complaining because they want more
They’re complaining because they’re suddenly getting less

Exactly

Arietta The Broken.1875:

I’m sure something similar to this has been mentioned, maybe.. maybe not.. but here goes.

I think it’d be nice if they could implement a system like this.

[I] [II] [III] [IV] [V] [VI] [VII] [VIII] [IX] [X] [XI] [XII] [XII]
When you unlock I for Power, (or the first line) that unlocks it for your account. So you unlock trait line 1 skill [XI] on your mesmer and all other characters can also use this skill.

I think this might encourage people to do some of the events for traits since it opens up it for more than just one character, those that have been grandfathered in are happy since they have everything open, those that have paid for it might be a bit upset sinking a lot of gold/skill points into individual characters but it might be better than removing the new system or changing it

NOTE

This would still allow players to buy the traits and it unlocks them for the account also.

Yup its been mentioned

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

Rampage.6489:

timmyf.1490:

Thaddeus.4891:

How GW2 does? I don’t know. We will need to compare it to other game to really know. But you can’t just assume that the game don’t keep its player base because about 50% of their player only play through the story and dungeon only once. That’s what most ppl do in most of their games.

MMOs, in general, don’t see rising populations over time. But it feels like, with the number of sales we’ve seen especially, ArenaNet is making a strong push to add more players. This is happening because ArenaNet has concluded that the game NEEDS MORE PLAYERS.

I’m not necessarily trying to make a point here, I’m just trying to remind everybody: the NPE, the new dailies, the log on rewards, the Living Story… the entire point of these things is to encourage players to keep the game installed and to jump in from time to time.

Making the game worse wont bring any new players in and will only scare away people who liked how the game was…

They seem to think that they do make a better game for new players and don’t care for the current ones.

I don’t think that’s true, it doesn’t seem to be about bringing in new players or retaining old ones. All these changes seem to be for metrics and nothing more. If you want to retain players you add new content at a decent rate. If you want to bring in new players then you add new content to have things to talk about in the press and so that the game doesn’t look stagnant. Changing things to force people in to certain areas says only one thing and that’s metrics.

Lothirieth.3408:

Ayrilana.1396:

The purpose of the daily system is to get people out into other areas of the game.

I hadn’t realised you were an ANet dev.

Players are not being forced to do daily achievements

If players want the AP, then yes, they must do three dailies. That is a requirement to satisfy a desire. Before, said desire could be satisfied in a much broader manner. people are expressing that they wish for these broad choices to return. This is called constructive criticism and something a game developer should welcome.

Also, please don’t do the whole “well the game is optional” statement as it’s not an argument and doesn’t change the fact that the daily achievements are optional.

It is very much an argument and I’ll use it if I like. You don’t get to decide what I say, sorry. The game being an optional thing is quite the important factor as because if ANet’s taking choices away and causing the game to feel more like a chore for people to complete dailies as they used to, it could lead to people making other choices about the game, such as not playing. To tell people what they don’t need or aren’t required in your perception for their fun is entirely unhelpful.

Players can still play the game how they want like before. I’m starting to think that players do not understand what “play how they want” really means and instead think it means “reward me how I want”.

There you go again with that argument. Trying to equate something that isn’t equal. People aren’t asking to get rewards from chatting or a precursor upon login. They’re asking to have broad dailies, to view a vista anywhere for example. It’s called a compromise. But you’d rather make people out to be worse than that as usual. It’s tiresome.

This is the problem that all the defenders of these changes have. They act like we are asking for a change that did not exist previously and then act like everyone is asking for free legendaries. We didn’t get free legendaries before so how is asking for things to go back to how they were equal to asking for free legendaries or ascended or anything else.

Many of the changes have slowly reduced choices since launch. All that many people are asking for is to once again have the choices that were taken away. We understand that arenanet want to herd us into certain areas for their metrics but all its going to do is chase players away.

After looking at the list I wonder how they even come up with this crap. They say they dumbed stuff down because its to complicated. Now they change something that was one per day and change it to 1 on day 2, 10 on day 7, 2 on day 9, 3 on 16, 15 on 21, and 4 on 23. Its the most random and complicated thing I have ever seen. My OCD looks at it and makes me want to scream. What do they do, throw darts at a dart board to come up with this crap. Why can’t it be one per day and have a bonus on the 28th day. Why over complicate it.

Its getting to the point where I check on this game just to get my mind blown.

How much do you get on each day. If you only get 1 or 2 on the selected days and then get like 15-20 for selecting the 28 day reward then the entire system is horse kitten. As over all the rewards of all of them have been decreased. Sure if you select the 28 day laurel reward you will maybe get more laurels than before but then all the other daily rewards end up being less than before. Its a huge nerf and like always white knights gonna come in and tell you that the heaping pile of crap taste like candy.

Wolfheart.1879:

So, in order to utilise what is considered a core system/mechanic of the game, you need some level of careful planning, and not wasting gold on skins, or skill points on unnecessary items and skills. In some ways fair enough, but should a new player be expected to have be so focused on unlocking this one system that they neglect the “fun” bits of the game? As for only using skill points on the necessary skills, I suggest part of the fun of the game is experimenting, finding the skills you enjoy and feel are useful. For that, you need to experiment and unlock them. Should new players be expected to just follow some build and skillset found on the internet? or should they be allowed to learn the game their way?

Now, that assumes that the unlock method is purchasing only. In reality, i’d expect a new player to go ont he hunt, and in all likelihood, for the most part enjoy it. The principle of the system is fairly sound. Explore the world, work an event/scenario/whatever to unlock a skill, and away we go. It should be organic. The problem is that the requirements for certain, particularly lower level traits can be excessive. I believe its fine to have some serious effort behind unlocking the top traits. its the culmination of a long journey, and it deserves a strong ending. But such requirements for adept traits? That I find ridiculous. That and the level needed to unlock certain traits (in that they are found in zones well above the unlock level for using that tier) to be a barrier to experimentation. Its a nice idea, and as with many things, just poorly executed.

As for the cost of unlocking. The gold side can be excessive for new players. The idea ofusing dungeons etc to get gold is fine, but new players without traits may find it hard to get into the groups to do them. That is depending on enjoying dungeons as well, something that reputedly is not as used as perhaps Anet may want. Of course, using a mix of unlocking by effort and gold/skillpoints can create a medium.

But what of altoholics? After a few runs at unlocking via the hard way, it can become tedious. Repeating tasks like that do that naturally. Its times like that, that people turn the easy way as a way of doing it quickly and avoiding a bit of a slog. For those with a lot of alts, it appears that Anet are penalising us for having a lot of alts, which for many altoholics can be roughly translated into being penalised for buying a lot of gems. Of course, as number of characters increase, the amount of gold to get them up increases, that is natural, but to look at it from a purely personal perspective, it comes to far.

I have the full 64 character slots. 26 of my current set of characters existed before the April patch. They are grandfathered in. Ok, they miss out on the new traits tat were added, but by and large they are complete. I also did the new unlocking on one alt after, and took a while at it. For purposes of this, thats 27 characters with all traits unlocked, leaving 37 that are clean sheets. Sure, I can just unlock the necessary skills for a build, but I like having my characters having some sense of individuality, in terms of look and abilities, plus I like to experiment with things, mix them up. If I was to go about unlocking all traits, I would need a grand total of 1591g, and 13320 skill points.

I’ll be honest, I’ve only just now worked that out, and I’m actually a little in shock at that cost. That isn’t an insignificant amount. Sure, my own silly fault for having so many alts, but at the same time, thats a lot of money I’ve spent on the game. End of the day, new players who are just out to explore and feel their way through are penalised, and so are those who enjoy alts. Anet have themselves acknowledged a lot of those issues in the mega-thread. Its the fact that they acknowledge the issues but then seemingly do nothing by way of addressing those issues I find disrespectful to the customers/players.

Very nice post, I totally agree with that last part. When they switched to the new trait system it created many problems. They acknowledged the problems and have done practically nothing for 8 months except tell us to keep giving them suggestions. If they would just adjust 1 trait a week, or even 1 trait a month to be in a more appropriate level/zone for the level of trait it would be nice. It would still be bullkitten that we have to play with this new system but at least then it would show they are trying. The lack of communication and the lack of anything being done is just a big middle finger to all of the player/customer base. How anyone can defend them with out getting paid is beyond my comprehension.