Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?
if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.
I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.
Just did some testing of my own. It seems like staff power daredevil has the best DPS for thief and it’s a bit lower than reaper. I really don’t see why you would bring thief as DPS though since it’s very low and doesn’t bring a lot of group utility. I’m sticking to my point that Daredevil has the most active mitigation of any class/spec through evade spam and it’s going to be a top tier tank if all you need to hold aggro is toughness.
I suppose it might also be good to bring one since they spam combos so well. You have constant blast finishers from pounce and a choice of whirl/leap finishers from your staff DPS abilities although it seems like the 5 results in higher DPS than the 2. Might just be because the third hit is missing on the golem sometimes.
Your test won’t say much until you tell us the conditions you used, cause they have to be equal, meaning solosetting are not accurate at all for this comparision.
Condi thief is nowhere near good in PvE. Even with venomshare it’s not worth using unless it’s just for fun. It does about half the damage DD staff does solo and venomshare isn’t going to make that up.
No one is talking about a venom share thief, he wants to know which assumptions you made in your damage calculations that gives you the impression that thief DPS is low.
They aren’t calculations it’s called extended DPS parsing on the test golems with multiple builds. DD staff was the highest. Still a bit lower than Reaper. Probably higher then mesmer but they bring the best DPS support of any class by far. There just doesn’t seem to be a reason to take thieves outside of stealth or tanking.
I mean I don’t really see a reason to bring Reaper at all right now unless they are good tanks for some reason. I only broght up reaper because iirc the person asking about why thief DPS was considered low was responding to someone saying it was lower than Reaper. I don’t think reaper will be as good as Thief/Guard/Rev for tanking though. Mesmers can cover boon stripping and everyone has loads of free vuln. Necro is the least desirable class for raids right now I think.
It’s really going to depend on how difficult the raid is whether one will be needed or not. If it’s like WoW where some bosses require tens or even hundreds of pulls before a successful kill then it’s going to be an invaluable tool for optimizing the fight. If raids are a lot easier and only require a few pulls to down a boss for a group that is trying it really won’t matter.
Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?
if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.
I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.
Just did some testing of my own. It seems like staff power daredevil has the best DPS for thief and it’s a bit lower than reaper. I really don’t see why you would bring thief as DPS though since it’s very low and doesn’t bring a lot of group utility. I’m sticking to my point that Daredevil has the most active mitigation of any class/spec through evade spam and it’s going to be a top tier tank if all you need to hold aggro is toughness.
I suppose it might also be good to bring one since they spam combos so well. You have constant blast finishers from pounce and a choice of whirl/leap finishers from your staff DPS abilities although it seems like the 5 results in higher DPS than the 2. Might just be because the third hit is missing on the golem sometimes.
Your test won’t say much until you tell us the conditions you used, cause they have to be equal, meaning solosetting are not accurate at all for this comparision.
Condi thief is nowhere near good in PvE. Even with venomshare it’s not worth using unless it’s just for fun. It does about half the damage DD staff does solo and venomshare isn’t going to make that up.
For PvE Tactics+Arms+Berserker LB is the best DPS. For PvP I wouldn’t recommend condi war but you can try. Idk if I would run arms though.
Without getting too deep into the math, why would Arms have higher dps than Discipline on a Berserker condi build?
Adrenaline on crit (by far the biggest and most necessary)
300-400 condition damage
4-5 stacks of bleeding
33% bleeding duration
Vuln on crit
Extra Fury
DD multiplier
vs
15% Burst recharge (practically useless in most scenarios)
Some quickness (get a mesmer)
Faster weapon swap (everything is lower damage than LB)
If you see the extra duration shown when mousing over your condition duration stat, then it just adds to it and cannot exceed the cap. (Master of Misdirection, King of Fires).
If you equip the trait and don’t see a condition duration increase for that condition represented, then it it’s no longer part of the same condition duration calculation, and instead a separate condition extension, thus allowing it to not only can exceed the cap, but actually applies multiplicatively rather than additively (So 150% duration + a 33% increase trait = 200% rather than 183%) i.e. the thief’s Potent Poisons trait.
Potent Poisons does seem to be multiplicative for some reason but it has the same problem as King of Fires where it can cause tooltips to go over the actual duration. With max poison duration it says Steal will apply something like 26 seconds of poison but it only applies 20.
You really need to look at the reaper skill set, any changes to this rune would be a nerf to the reaper.
Anyone who looks at the necro/reaper skillset sees that they already have a bunch of chill. They really don’t need more it stacks duration and more doesn’t do anything. Not to mention that 2 of the shouts already have much longer duration chills on them.
Imagine if Rune of the Herald gave 2 seconds of fury on activating a Glint ability. It would just be more of something that stacks duration which you already have enough of.
I’m not sure about any other DPS sheet, but the last time I checked my engineer DPS sheet against the DnT one, we ended up within 17 DPS (out of 18k or so) of each other when using the same assumptions. I’d be willing to bet that they’re pretty accurate for Patchwerk style fights.
First time I’ve seen someone say a number for engis that didn’t seem obviously wrong. Mainly seen people talking about them doing 30k DPS. I don’t really play engi and only did a bit of testing but 30k was obviously wrong. 18k sounds realistic with alacrity and quickness.
Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?
if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.
I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.
Just did some testing of my own. It seems like staff power daredevil has the best DPS for thief and it’s a bit lower than reaper. I really don’t see why you would bring thief as DPS though since it’s very low and doesn’t bring a lot of group utility. I’m sticking to my point that Daredevil has the most active mitigation of any class/spec through evade spam and it’s going to be a top tier tank if all you need to hold aggro is toughness.
I suppose it might also be good to bring one since they spam combos so well. You have constant blast finishers from pounce and a choice of whirl/leap finishers from your staff DPS abilities although it seems like the 5 results in higher DPS than the 2. Might just be because the third hit is missing on the golem sometimes.
never had this issue, been in plenty of 1v2 with a mixed result, but its not impossible to win.
But to your point; The “improved” mmr-system should make you face more competent players and the chance of winning 1v2 should decrease if no other factors weigh in (starting hp, cds…).
Make sense? no?
edit; or follow Yasha’s advice and roll a class that not everyone knows how to hard counter yet.
The only hard counter to reaper is focusing them down with multiple people since necros don’t really have any block/invuln. Other than that they’re just a pain to deal with.
Just saying comparing Mesmer to Thief is incredibly stupid. It’s pretty much going to be a guarantee that any team actually trying for progression will have multiple Chronomancers because of how good alacrity and quickness are. Mesmers could do 0 damage and people would still bring them.
As for thieves their DPS is very low but I still think they will possibly be the best tanks. I can’t think of another class that has anywhere near the active mitigation of Daredevil.
Yes these are the terrible players who you can win 1v2s against. If he just sits there and tries to res the other guy while you cleave and kill them no kitten you can win no one is fighting you.
Most people, decent players, will try to resurrect a downed ally. And even if they don’t, once one person is down, all you got to do is continue cleaving. They got to make a choice, to let their ally die from the cleaves while you damage them as well, or to try and get them up. Either way, you have the advantage, as their ally creates a distraction in most cases. Your subconsciously weighing the pros and cons of trying to get your ally back up, even if you aren’t directly focusing on it. This can result in you playing worse.
If you try to revive a downed ally and get killed by a guy who you are 2v1 against you are bad and deserve to lose. If you aren’t bad and MMR is working as intended this situation will never actually occur.
One person goes down, other person tries to resurrect,
Yes these are the terrible players who you can win 1v2s against. If he just sits there and tries to res the other guy while you cleave and kill them no kitten you can win no one is fighting you.
Wait, doesn’t deep strike only give the condition damage to fury that you apply? So, wouldn’t it be pointless if you had someone else granting fury?
Actually yes it does work like that. Maybe opportunist is better. Also I wonder if your AOE fury gives other players condition damage.
I completely forgot To The Limit existed when I made that video. Honestly I don’t think it’s a good heal to take when you actually need heals. Like it just isn’t practical. In a situation where you can take a heal for DPS I’m not sure if I would use it or Blood Reckoning. It would need further testing but I’m sure there are some situations where it would be alright.
In theory you could get DPS numbers for a variety of players using the same (and comparison) builds in the same encounter, and build a scale statistically from that data – how well do people perform on average with a build, and how does that stack up to other builds? That would be empirically valid. Without really widespread tools feeding into a database, however (can the API do that?), such data collection isn’t practical, and purely theoretical scale creation (such as the DnT spreadsheet numbers) are the only practical scale in town.
Yeaaaah that’s kinda what I meant. Something like warcraftlogs. Probably never going to see that in GW2 but doing spreadsheet DPS for specific encounters is never going to be anywhere near accurate outside of Patchwerk fights. And even then you have the problem that spreadsheet DPS isn’t very accurate in the first place.
So another condi LB build that makes use of the Scorched Earth exploit…
It’s no an exploit it’s an intended mechanic. If anet didn’t want this to happen they wouldn’t have given scorched earth multiple hitboxes. It would just be one long rectangle. It greatly raises the skill cap on warrior DPS.
Personally I don’t think you should take downtime and specific encounter mechanics into account when calculating baseline DPS. That’s going to be unique to every encounter and you can deal with how that affects your composition when you come to that encounter. Plus some of these mechanics can be completely avoided by more skilled players or with different strategies. Encounter specific DPS is much better calculated with logs. I think the main difference that should be looked at for DPS calculations is toughness since that’s going to create unavoidable differences in the favor of condition DPS the higher it goes. It would be nice if you aren’t going to show your full math to at least show how toughness scaling affects it. Or at least physical vs condition damage.
If you say you’re doing math please present the math because it’s pretty obvious that it’s being done wrong.
If you have an example, please share it.
“Revenant does 25k DPS” is an easy one.
Also a separate criticism is that you guys seem to not actually bother testing most things and just make one build and say “it’s the best”. A fantastic example of this is Obal saying “I haven’t looked looked into condi guard since it’s not going to be better than Dragonhunter” while his own graphs from his July condi guardian guide show it having higher DPS than the graphs in his Dragonhunter guide. Plus the fact that I’ve pointed out to him he was using a fairly suboptimal setup in the condi guard guide.
My issue isn’t with “math in a void”. It’s more the fact that there’s just no math presented at all. Supposedly things are calculated and then they show a fancy graph and expect it to have some value when anyone can easily go do some ingame testing that shows the graph makes zero sense. If you say you’re doing math please present the math because it’s pretty obvious that it’s being done wrong.
That would be awful. It’s already possible to cap burn duration with only a little bit of Viper gear. We don’t need more burn duration this would just kitten condi guards.
I’m unsure how this would hurt condi guardians. They would lose 15% damage on burns (their burst; odd to say for condi damage), but if they are getting an extra tick on their burns their overall DPS would be higher. Although the GM trait would have to give a tick to all your burns, so a flat % wouldn’t work.
I’m sorry you just don’t understand damage multipliers at all. In the first place again you can cap burning duration as it is right now so another 15% would be completely wasted. And let’s say you use it for that last 15% it’s still much less damage than a 15% burning damage increase. On one hand you have 185% duration burning with 15% increased damage. On the other we have 185% duration with 15% increased duration. The difference is 212.75% damage vs 200% damage making duration much less.
Oh no I can no longer spend hours standing in LA doing nothing but flipping items on the TP and then buy all the legendaries. I actually have to play the game. How horrible.
You’re supposed to raid with a Static (or at least a Guild) group. They’re not something you’re supposed to be clearing with pugs.
As you’ll be raiding with mostly a set group, I wager that you can decide for yourselves how to raid. In other games, people cheesing their way through the hardest raids with exploits have got banned however. Any team that likes to think of themselves as half-decent should not be wanting to cheese through raids with exploits anyways. I don’t think Anet will be any more lenient with their philosophy if they can get the glimpse of it.
I do think Fractals are in a very weird (and unrewarding) state right now. I haven’t seen much exploiting around, only instant vote kicks when someone dcs for a minute I think.
I disagree with this. You don’t need a static group, the content isn’t really that hard. And if the only reason is to avoid people being toxic, then I think the solution lies somewhere else. I usually run with friends/guildies, but if I want to do my daily when they’re not on, I shouldn’t be forced to exploit the content.
He was talking about raids for a static group if you read his post.
Anyways with regards to “exploits” in fractals people just don’t want to waste time on fights they don’t need to do. If you want to take the scenic route do it with some friends. If anet isn’t going to fix it people are going to keep doing it.
Ignore your starting area. find the central hub where everything converges, then you can easily access all areas of the map without much problems.
Don’t attempt map objectives without wallows and updraft. You should also have at least a week of roaming experience on the map, too. Otherwise, you’ll find it extremely frustrating to find things if you haven’t already memorized most of the travel routes, amount and type of enemies in each zone, etc.
^This. Leyline confluence waypoint is vital to getting around TD.
It isn’t even though. You can get from OoW WP to Leyline Confluence WP in like 2 minutes with just gliding and bouncing shrooms. The map is so easy to get around once you know it people just don’t want to have to learn anything.
A good compromise would be to have some mechanic (like mob spawns or a DoT effect) that increases in damage over time so that you have a soft cap rather than a hard enrage timer. This opens the door to a variety of challenge matches, including but not limited to:
Kill the boss after surviving x amount of time without the boss falling under 50% health (to really build up that DoT or mob spawns)
Kill the boss without killing any additional mobs (gotta kill it fast)
Kill x number of mobs within x number of seconds (have to tank a high number of mobs until you build up enough)
That’s just a soft enrage and achievements. Pretty sure we’ll be seeing both of those considering they already exist in GW2.
I just stated, a bearbow team can beat the DPS checking. It’s not like they are running clerics. No, these rangers are running sinister and zerkers, spirit and trap utilities, swapping pets as soon as they get low, you got a recipe for easy success.
9 bearbow rangers is nowhere near the optimal DPS. An optimal team is going to be a tank plus a mix of Chronomancer/Berserker/Engi/Druid/Revenant. Other classes will also be useful but not extremely optimal, but it’s not like people ran comps of the best class in WoW. For AoE fights you never saw 2 Prot pallys and 23 enhancement shamans. That would be stupid.
Amplified Wrath is good, but only really shines with a condi build. A change from +burn damage, to +burn duration I think would be more helpful to both condi and power Guardians since you would have higher uptimes for your other “while burning” traits.
That would be awful. It’s already possible to cap burn duration with only a little bit of Viper gear. We don’t need more burn duration this would just kitten condi guards.
RR is completely useless though and needs to go. Honestly not sure what should be there instead. I actually like the “retaliation deals double damage when you are hit by a critical strike” idea.
Just because you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, I recorded some videos with a DPS meter to see raw values, instead of blind guesses.
I would like to point out that the DPS meter you’re using only shows your DPS in the past 5 seconds which is a horrible estimate for total DPS over an extended period. Also you’ll do more damage on war if you never swap from LB it’s just a straight up DPS loss.
Alternatively, maybe someone needs to stand somewhere that’s full of damage that can only be evaded. A thief could spam more evades than any other class and be the MVP for that scenario.
Daredevil tanks could definitely be a thing. Dodge tanks existed in WoW and FFXI. All you need is the toughness to hold aggro(apparently) and then you have all of the evades to not take damage.
It’s almost a general consensus at the top level play, that with the removal of the minstrel amulet, that bunker guard is basically dead.
Oh my god the stupidity is unreal.
Concentration was completely broken for the duration of Minstrel being in PvP and a little while after. It never gave any Boon Duration just like Expertise never gave any Condition Duration until they were both fixed. They just changed tooltips. Minstrel was removed just because it was purely defensive stats.
What if I told you monetary gain was never the goal of raids? It’s for legendary armor + ascended gear+ skins.
And besides, other than legendary weapons, what else would you really need gold for? This entire game is a skin grind, I don’t know what you were expecting if not different skins and armor that you can freely change the stats on when desired.
This hits the nail on the head. The point of raids isn’t to give monetary rewards. It gives things that you normally acquire with monetary rewards, except these are raid-only and have actual prestige to them unlike legendaries and other garbage skins which you look at and think “wow that guy farmed/bought 3000g”.
Forgot hammer SW for guard which knockbacks on AA plus knockdown on active. Also you should make a note that there are enemies which you do not want to break the breakbar of since it makes them much more difficult.
There was another topic about this a few days ago. Your vid seems alright, although the build is not optimized.
And no, this does not do more dmg then other classes/builds. We can’t touch elementalists ever, but even warrior has a better DPS build, especially now that Berserker has gotten some pretty crazy melee damage buffs. I believe something like this is optimal for warrior now;
DPS is higher, group utility way better. And I am not very well informed on PvE, so there are most likely way more optimised versions of this build already.
There is no way to get anywhere near that DPS with power.
EDIT: Went and tested whatever what you linked was. The DPS is about 47% of what condi does in testing. And condi scales way better in groups.
Also I think the SW GS is not that good of a choice. I use it sometimes myself and with the change to damage taken its not half bad but in most situations its just too slow of an attack speed. in addition the swings of the GS do NOT count twoards F1 passiv proc which sucks.
Air/Fire are the highest DPS increasing sigils for condi guardian. Fire on single targets and air in AOE. Also spirit weapons don’t count as hits for VoJ but they apply 6 sec of burning per hit which is crazy good.
You do realize that longbow is literally the highest dps together with gs and it’s getting used by the pve meta build atm? If anything it needs a nerf because a range weapon doing more dps than melee weapons is kinda stupid.
Condi is higher DPS with GS + Mace/Torch or Scepter/Torch but LB is still used for top power right now yeah.
I got gold on floor is lava. It’s a pretty tight timer but I really enjoyed it and it only took like an hour of trying. I think it might be good to nerf it a bit because I hear players with high latency have problems with it.
Really don’t like the RNG ones that have tight timers. I hope those get changed.
Haywire Punchomatic needs to be changes because no one has gold. Highest was 193/230 last I heard.
Highest physical damage in game at melee range. That is it. A lot of veteran players to high level fractals etc all have a warrior. Basically it is a not the warrior that is important, more the player and their ability to pound fire shaman or lupi etc at point blank melee range and survive. Also if you don’t have a boon factory revenant in the party, then banners can be used as a poor substitute. Basically your taking one because nothing better would join your team.
