I know this would be considered exploiting but would it be possible to coordinate with the other team to “farm” points and make a very close game where the losing team gains a pip as well as the winning team? I’ve had close games where I lost but gained a pip but I don’t know if this has a lot more to do with the other team having higher MMR.
Okay with Daredevil and Herald it’s a skill matchup out of your favor but you can still win if you play it right. Diamond Skin however will completely kitten you over and is horrible to play against.
So play Celestial Reaper and get all of the good stuff about condi reaper plus a bunch of physical damage and more survivability.
Also warrior is the most notoriously easily kited class in the game which gets screwed by blinds. It can’t do anything to Reaper outside of Rampage so you just kite until it ends and then they do nothing to you.
Idk I was 5-3 solo on my reaper. Winning less since I switched to guard since I got the five necro wins for part 1 of the backpiece. like 2-2 so far on guard.
It’s not just traits too. Warrior weapon skills and utilities have some serious lacking. You look at a power revenant who has extremely good auto attacks plus 10 seconds of block/evade and all the chasing power you could ever want. Then you look at warrior and all of its damage is in extremely hard to land abilities that get screwed by blind. It has one decent survivability skill that lasts 4 sec on a 90 sec CD. And it has horrible mobility and is easily kited by every class.
Really the solution here is just git gud. The top 3 DPS builds in the game right now are condi. Ascended gear isn’t as big of a difference for condi because you have much less scaling from weapon damage. Ascended condi trinkets are basically free from achievments too.
Also as for gear checking people I don’t see that much. My static killed the first two bosses last week and I have carrion armor/wep with sinister trinkets. Was on vacation until yesterday this week so I’ve been pugging and only one group asked me to ping gear and they were fine with me just having trinkets/weapon on my chrono. Haven’t seen anyone ask for AP.
Don’t have to use Scrapper spec, so it’s all core change skills and traits… Easy peasy, lemon squeezey
Sinister and viper are glass cannon specs. Each of the 3/4 stats they give increases condi dps. Since the timers in the raids are pretty tight, rabid DOES reduce your chance of beating the bosses.
DPS meters made WoW a static game. People would reject you because your class would pull as little as 2% less damage than another class, so they wouldn’t take you.
I’m pretty sure you never played WoW and pulled that out of your kitten . In WoW no one discriminates based on classes they do it based on logs and meters unless they’re a moron. If rogue 99th percentile does 10% less DPS than druid but rogue 95th percentile does 5% more than druid 90th percentile and you have 95th percentile logs you will get takes over a 90th percentile druid. So much comes down to execution and basically every class is good if you can do 95th percentile or higher.
In GW2 people currently discriminate based on classes for raids. For the 2nd boss Guardians/Necros/Thieves have no place and will never get into a serious group because they are perceived to have lower DPS (and afaik they do) and there is no way to prove differently.
Nobody will take you for raids if you don’t have meta equipment. This includes full ascended with viper stats, proper runes and sigils, and food and utility buff.
Except for pugs that just want to try the raid without any hope of success. But these groups have given up already.
No you just have to not be bad and join a static group not some random elitist pug.
Maybe in the case of Raids, it is a necessary evil.
It’s not an evil at all. Basically every complaint against it is because it would “cause elitism and toxicity” but that’s not the fault of the tool. That’s like saying stopwatches shouldn’t be allowed to record sprint times for professional sports players because it might cause some people to be excluded. When really it’s just people trying to get an accurate measure of something that is necessary to know.
In the current state each raid will need a couple of condition damage DPS. The gear for condi dmg DPS is sinister. This means that these players will need Sinister and/or Viper gear.
Condi dmg players that want to participate in raids will not only need to buy HoT, but also buy parts of the living story and do time consuming achievements for it, while some players just want to do raids.
This reduces the freedom of the playerbase and is against the play how you want philosophy. I want to play raids with my friends, but if I want to go condi, I first have to spend loads of gems and some weeks to be optimal (which is required for raids). This has nothing to do with skill.
In my opinion this is bad design and every stat should be available (for the right gold price) for all players.
Well no duh you need HoT for raids they are HoT content.
Don’t need LWS2 for viper gear.
You’re basically buying Sinister trinkets for gold with LWS2. Buy gems for gold buy LWS2 then there’s no more cost for the sinister trinkets. Acheivments took me like a day and a half solo.
“Loads of gems and some weeks” is more like “140g and 2 days plus a day in SW”. Stop being lazy.
Ascended armor isn’t that big of a difference. (like 2% or something)
Ascended weapons are the biggest difference (for power damage) and it’s not that bad to get one ascended weapon for your main class.
Ascended trinkets are a good upgrade and aren’t that hard to get. If you’re condi you can get them all from LWS2 story. You can any type of amulet from HoT story. Or you can spend laurels on them (save up and don’t waste em). Or you can get them from fractal chests (rings mainly).
Also execution makes a much bigger difference than gear. Bringing the correct classes, positioning correctly, not getting downed, not getting teleported, keeping speed mushroom buff, doing your rotation correctly etc etc will make a much larger difference than ascended gear.
Now really depending on how “tanking” ends up being in GW2 Daredevil has the potential to be the best tank class in the game through sheer amount of evades and blocks. From what we saw of Vale Guardian during beta that specific fight doesn’t necessitate tanks having high survivability but we might see later bosses that do heavy damage to tanks and have multiple tank killer abilities requiring something like Daredevil/Guard/Rev/Scrapper as a tank.
thiefs dont make good tanks at least for the boss we were shown. evade tanking means you are forced to move around which lowers overall dps (not standing in dmg/combo fields/melees not hitting all their skills)
this against an enrage timer —> no evasion tanking
You can just dodge through. them. Also for that boss you don’t need a tank with active mitigation. It doesn’t do a lot of damage to its aggro target.
Also as engis smoke field the problem I was pointing out is that it isn’t reliable and on demand. If there’s a boss fight or something that requires a lot of stealth you will need a thief.
Now really depending on how “tanking” ends up being in GW2 Daredevil has the potential to be the best tank class in the game through sheer amount of evades and blocks. From what we saw of Vale Guardian during beta that specific fight doesn’t necessitate tanks having high survivability but we might see later bosses that do heavy damage to tanks and have multiple tank killer abilities requiring something like Daredevil/Guard/Rev/Scrapper as a tank.
If people don’t want to kill it for the reward maybe anet should do something about that, If people don’t want to kill it because the fight is boring or just not engaging for them maybe they should do something about that in the meantime the only reasonable thing to do is play fallout 4.
Or because both of my mains are condi with burn as their main damage source.
Imaging how kittened people would be if anet added a mandatory trash champion that was immune to physical damage.
Talking about it is the exact opposite than what they’ve done in the past. Ask the people exploiting food at launch how much warning they got. Don’t do it. It takes <3 mins to kill the trash and your account will be safe.
I probably wouldn’t mind killing the trash that much if it wasn’t immune to 80% of my damage for no reason.
If you agree with me up until this point, we both agree on builds being able to be compared in theoretical, boss-specific scenarios within boss-specific spreadsheets, coming up with dps conclusions that are very close, but still slightly above reality.
The rest-discrepancy to reality is caused by individual player-skill & therefore require mechanical perfection from a player wanting to achieve these numbers. Still the above described methods allow for coming up with builds that not only reflect very realistic numbers, but can be used to analyze a wide range of boss-encounters, without ever recording your dmg ingame (beyond probing the values for this build-process)
Just saying people do this in WoW trying to be as accurate as possible but sims pretty commonly have great deviation from logs and really aren’t that practical. Looking at simcraft right now it estimates 72k DPS for a subtlety patchwerk fight with 720 item level. On the current raid tier’s patchwerk fight the top DPS parse from an ilv 720 sub rogue is 124k. DPS meters and logs will always be much much much better than sims.
Man the stupidity is overwhelming. I’m done here. If you want a response you can look to my previous posts where I have already replied to the same things you keep saying over and over.
well if the raid is that challenging then I hope they nerf it to an acceptable level! Because I really dont want to see exclusive content for the very few! I did not purchase this game just to be left out of some of the best content and I am sure 90% of the guild war 2 player base will find that unacceptable too!
Yeah how about no. Instead of Anet bringing the difficulty of content down to your level how about you try to actually improve so you can complete it. It’s not “exclusive content for the very few” it’s content accessible to anyone with HoT. You just have to actually put in some time and effort like everything else in the game that can’t be straight up bought with real cash.
if you think guild war 2 already have a more elitist community then any other mmo then you are delusional! Ok maybe for pvp it is true, but we are not talking about pvp and I am not a pvp player. For PVE rangers and necro are fine I see them at high level fractal all time. Man did you forget to take your medication?
It’s very true. In WoW people get excluded based on bad play or not meeting their requirements which isn’t elitist just practical. You have really bad logs and try to get into a group checking logs? You haven’t killed the boss before and try to join a group checking achievements? You step on a mine and kill your whole raid? You do really bad DPS? Get kicked.
In GW2 it’s very different. You get kicked just based on your class because people assume that you’re going to do lower DPS because of some spreadsheet math that no one has actually seen and there are no damage logs to show that even though your class has a lower DPS ceiling you can pull top numbers and do much better than those bad condi engi players.
We’re not getting a DPS meter. The reason why is because DPS meters exist to discriminate. Anet doesn’t want you to discriminate against gear, classes, or even playstyle. Anet doesn’t want you doing DPS cals to find a perfect rotation. Most players are perfectly happy without a DPS meter, and Anet isn’t going to add one into the game just so a few people can satisfy their curiosity.
Increasing the count of stupid posts are we? DPS meters are a tool used to analyze DPS. People “discriminate” based on them in scenarios where it makes sense to do so. If I spend an hour wiping to an enrage timer on a boss I don’t want that guy consistently doing 70% of the DPS of the second lowest DPS player in the group. You say anet doesn’t want us doing DPS calcs for perfect rotations which is fine for open world or dungeons or even fractals. When it comes to raids which are meant to be very challenging and have hard enrage timers for DPS checks having a way to optimize DPS is essential.
All i am asking is for a personal damage meter, so that people see that the math never resembles reality… that their REAL DPSs are actually all over the place depending on the encounter, and that sometimes they do far more DPS with a lot less effort if they would be playing a condition build… vs targets with perma prot, stealth or blink… sometimes accepting a tank build will actually make their DPS look higher because they had more DPS uptime.
Or at least don’t ban people for using 3rd party parsers that read from memory. Jaxnx is really kitten in practicality.
Idk didn’t seem that hard. I got to Tybalt solo but it took forever and Tybalt is kind of a pain in the kitten solo so I’m not trying that again solo. Just git gud and bring a druid I guess (I was on warrior).
The fights aren’t going to be against target dummies, it’s illogical to use target dummy tests to claim what’s best before we ever see the encounters.
Yeah except with how thief DPS works you can reliably say unless steal somehow provides a massive DPS boost thieves will be on the bottom end of DPS.
A good player on any class is going to be better than the average player on pretty much any other class. Problem being we don’t have any great ways to show this due to lack of DPS parsers and logs that can’t get you banned. So people who are going for progression simply won’t bring classes based on class vs class comparisons rather than player vs player comparisons.
Was this really necessary? Do you know how long is pvp only players have had to deal with no or little rewards while you guys run around rich with 6 legendaries each? Go home troll.
Hey I don’t want to spend 850 hours playing PvP to get my dragon finisher. You don’t want to spend 5 hours killing spiders to get an ascended weapon. Who really has the short end of the stick here.
850 hours of pvp is fun. 5 hours of spider farming is not.
And besides there’s literally nothing you can get from pvp that you couldn’t get from pve. Those finishers are essentially useless to you, since you won’t finish anyone in pve. I mean yeah there’s WvW but that’s not relevant to the conversation.
Not that it matters but there are a few enemies in PvE that you can/must “finish”. Like all those special veterans with the mordrem seed events in Kessex Hills, Brisbane, etc. that spawn from time to time (look for big yellow flower symbol on the map). There you can parade your finishers in PvE
And /rank. It’s a cosmetic you can show off just like a weapon skin.
And as for what is fun is purely opinion. 850 is wayyyyy more than 5 though lol.
Was this really necessary? Do you know how long is pvp only players have had to deal with no or little rewards while you guys run around rich with 6 legendaries each? Go home troll.
Hey I don’t want to spend 850 hours playing PvP to get my dragon finisher. You don’t want to spend 5 hours killing spiders to get an ascended weapon. Who really has the short end of the stick here.
the other part is about maintaining a friendly atmosphere where everyone can learn and excel at the game together!
Yes and not having the main tool which allows you to analyze how you can improve somehow makes sense there.
The main way I improved in WoW was looking at DPS logs of better players and spending a lot of time practicing on target dummies and comparing different things with meters.
Yeah, stupid people do stupid things. Watch two stupid people do something stupid by standing in fire. Now give them each a ruler and watch them hit each other with it while still in the fire. How did this get any better?
They’re already standing in the fire being stupid. You give them rulers it changes nothing. Meanwhile the people who know how to use rulers get them and can use them effectively.
If you have a problem with people being bad specifically because a DPS meter simply exists why are you playing with those people?
fraction of DPS not related to personal play (by booning banners, or buffs),
heals or reductions of dmg taken keeping people up or
numer and time spend on resses (will it lower DPS due to dead/downstate, or just stop measuring giving a false number , would ressing lower dps or stop measuring? also ging false values?
combo’s and comparables
outgoing conditions, and cleans
CC’s and or interrupts keeping you or them from getting killed and or adding to DPS?
DOT or effective DOT
Average DPS/Time
Time spend facerubbing the floor
*
and thus:
A value easily interpreted wrong when narrowminded.
Uh, it’s been awhile since I played WoW and thus used a dps meter, but Recount (the most popular dps meter when I was playing) told you all of this stuff.
It’s literally your combat log aggregated into an easy to read format. I was the heal lead for my guild’s raids back then so I was generally more interested in the non-dps parts like conditions removed, activity, healing done (and to whom), HPS, mana recovered, deaths, mana recovered, etc.
A DPS meter is far more than the name implies.
Yeah most of the guys arguing against meters don’t actually understand what they are or how they’re used. I mean this guy just said that a DPS meter doesn’t measure DPS. What do you think it does? Meters in wow give you all of the things you just said they don’t minus the DPS increase caused by supportive buffs but it shows outgoing buffs and their uptime along with a ton of other useful information.
This is just way too much. You really expect me to grind out all of the pvp ranks just to get the dragon finisher? What kind of bull kitten is this?
I’m a pve player but I care about finisher skins skins. I want the dragon finisher. I’m giving up precious time learning the new metagame for pve to grind pvp ranks for a skin. It’s frustrating because there’s just too much.
I’ve been doing lots of hotjoin and unranked and today I decided to sit down and calculate how much rank points I need to get the skin based on what I already have. I need to get 3.8 million points. That’s 2300 unranked victories. Am I going insane? Am I really willing to spend 430 hours if I win every game just to get a skin that’s cool but not overly flashy or anything because it’s gated behind such a wall of Bull kitten?
Legend arises should require this much experience grinding, not the basic finisher skin for your pvp rank. It’s just too much and it’s making me resent the game rather than enjoy it because I have to go into pvp to get a skin that I can’t get in pve. It’s making me so frustrated.
For example before each raid, the raid leader ask each member of the raid to post their best raid dps average on some website or in the chat or through instant messaging! and those who do not qualify are asked to leave immediately!
This wouldn’t matter. People can still make a pug group that says “Experienced 10k+ DPS” and parsers do exist so they can check. Not having an official damage meter isn’t actually going to help at all it’s just going to cause more problems and false accusations of who isn’t pulling their weight in groups.
So you can argue all you want how it can “make the game better”. I can already draw up current implementations and see how a dps meter hasn’t made a game any better at all.
Stupid people do stupid things. People already continue to DPS instead of rezing. People already continue to DPS while standing in fire. Not giving players a very useful tool because idiots will be idiots is just hurting people that actually want to try. If you’re really that bad it’s not like you’re going to be better off without it.
It should really be direct damage and DoT insead of Hard/Soft CC. Fear and Taunt are both Hard CC but do DoT damage. Daze is soft CC but does direct damage. Weakness and Blind aren’t even CC at all.
Love seeing stuff like this. I think the translation was pretty good- people saying it looks “nothing” like the in game versions are nuts.
While I have esthetic issues with a lot of armors there are enough that catch my fancy. Ascended heavy is one of my favorites, minus that ugly helmet. Carapace heavy is also great, minus the skirt. NO MORE SKIRTS!
Meanwhile at leystone heavy chest being fantastic but the skirt is so godawful. There’s already a bajillion plate sets with skirts make more that are legplates.
How will a damage meter affect casuals? The people who want one already don’t play with bad players unless they feel like carrying someone, in which case chances are they won’t start kittening and moaning about DPS meters anyway. Casuals can and will continue to form their own safe spaces.
But criticism is undeniably the most important type of feedback there is, most people know when their performance was adequate and do not need to be told it was unless it was absolutely exceptional but are quick to shift the blame when it isn’t. Being able to tell someone to step their game up in raids if you see that they are far below for example the 7k DPS threshold required for the first wing’s boss is nothing but positive.
Just a DPS meter would be paltry though. They have the tools for it as evidenced by the PvP scoreboard so give us split damage and condi damage meters, boons applied, outgoing and self applied healing, boons removed etc.
The other argument would be, 10 people form a raid group,the 10 person raid is very happy and they start trying to kill the first raid boss, After 1 attempt they fail miserably, people start blaming each other, then they look at the DPS meter, every is doing above 7k dps, so it cant be the dps right? Nah if you are a pro then u can do 8k dps, hence anyone who is below 8k dps gets the boot! You see my point? if not I will continue. After booting the two person who are below 8k dps, the newly formed 10 person group tries again, but once again they fail miserably, so the raid leader looks at the DPS meter, ok everyone is doing above 8k dps, so it cant be the dps right? NAH if you are a pro then you should be able to do above 9k dps, and the 2 person who did below 9k dps are booted, but wait, “pls dont boot me says the 2 person we misclicked and this is our first try pls give us a chance!” The raid leader then says I dont have time for this NOOB BS! and boot! and if you are wondering where I got this example from just go play WOW and you will understand!
Well I’ll give a real example from WoW. A boss with an enrage timer and certain amount of HP that can be calculated to mean everyone should be doing 20k DPS to kill it. You go into the fight and most of the DPS are 19-20k. You have a few people carrying up at 20-23k and then this one amazing guy at 27k. You still can’t kill the boss though. After a few attempts you notice that a few players are consistently doing 14-16k and other players of the same class with very little difference in gear are doing 20k+. There’s a reason they get kicked. It isn’t “elitism” they are simply playing badly. People don’t want to waste hours trying to kill a boss and fail because bad players can’t pull their weight.
as a wow veteran I will tell you thats simply not true! after 1 try getting kicked for making 1 stupid mistake is just mean! As a wow raid leader I have done it many times, kicked people, yell at people, so on and so on! Wow is a very elitist and mean game now! In the beginning wow was much more friendlier I remember when I first joined wow, this guy give me 50 gold (equivalent to 200 guild war 2 gold!) just to help me out! I paid him back off course!
It’s purely anecdotal. But if you practice and execute fights correctly people will see that. Making one tiny mistake won’t wreck your DPS. Usually groups that kick on the first mistake will say so in their group description and it will be for raid wiping mistakes. Most pug groups for Mar’gok Heroic had “stand in mines = get kicked” in their description because the mines AOE the whole raid for a bunch of damage, usually wiping the raid or at least killing a few people, and you really shouldn’t stand in them.
How will a damage meter affect casuals? The people who want one already don’t play with bad players unless they feel like carrying someone, in which case chances are they won’t start kittening and moaning about DPS meters anyway. Casuals can and will continue to form their own safe spaces.
But criticism is undeniably the most important type of feedback there is, most people know when their performance was adequate and do not need to be told it was unless it was absolutely exceptional but are quick to shift the blame when it isn’t. Being able to tell someone to step their game up in raids if you see that they are far below for example the 7k DPS threshold required for the first wing’s boss is nothing but positive.
Just a DPS meter would be paltry though. They have the tools for it as evidenced by the PvP scoreboard so give us split damage and condi damage meters, boons applied, outgoing and self applied healing, boons removed etc.
The other argument would be, 10 people form a raid group,the 10 person raid is very happy and they start trying to kill the first raid boss, After 1 attempt they fail miserably, people start blaming each other, then they look at the DPS meter, every is doing above 7k dps, so it cant be the dps right? Nah if you are a pro then u can do 8k dps, hence anyone who is below 8k dps gets the boot! You see my point? if not I will continue. After booting the two person who are below 8k dps, the newly formed 10 person group tries again, but once again they fail miserably, so the raid leader looks at the DPS meter, ok everyone is doing above 8k dps, so it cant be the dps right? NAH if you are a pro then you should be able to do above 9k dps, and the 2 person who did below 9k dps are booted, but wait, “pls dont boot me says the 2 person we misclicked and this is our first try pls give us a chance!” The raid leader then says I dont have time for this NOOB BS! and boot! and if you are wondering where I got this example from just go play WOW and you will understand!
Well I’ll give a real example from WoW. A boss with an enrage timer and certain amount of HP that can be calculated to mean everyone should be doing 20k DPS to kill it. You go into the fight and most of the DPS are 19-20k. You have a few people carrying up at 20-23k and then this one amazing guy at 27k. You still can’t kill the boss though. After a few attempts you notice that a few players are consistently doing 14-16k and other players of the same class with very little difference in gear are doing 20k+. There’s a reason they get kicked. It isn’t “elitism” they are simply playing badly. People don’t want to waste hours trying to kill a boss and fail because bad players can’t pull their weight.
Also DPS meters can help prevent elitism. EX: I played a rogue at the beginning of WoD and they weren’t great. When I applied for a high ranked progression raiding guild however they could see from my logs that my DPS was much higher than other applicants because I was executing in the 96th-98th percentile on most fights. Without damage meters they would just say lol no sorry not taking rogues because other classes have higher DPS ceilings.
