Guild Wars 2

Can’t play. Makes me sad. See? ->

Oh, it makes me doubly sad because server response seems to have improved dramatically, but there’s either a big problem with getting sync updates from other players or I’m getting monstrous spikes/loss.

This is constructive. 21 complaints and no ideas. Ok, you doubled and tripled up on some of your whining, so less than 21, but still a pretty good ratio!

Dunning-Krüger effect – the major source of balance complaints.

Condis do significantly less damage without expertise, and proc on crit effects like sigil of earth, incendiary powder, and dhuumfire need precision.

Kwll.1468:

Mammoth.1975:

I noticed something while watching a dps guard streaming the other day. His staff auto was doing 1-2k aoe damage (600 range), and the whole time he was doing it he was complaining about stuff like necro scepter auto, which does ~750 single target (900 range) when you include the bleed.

The biggest ‘hit’ on a necros s/d set is now enfeebling blood, which does ~3.4k aoe damage on a 25s recharge if the bleeds somehow tick for fifteen seconds without being removed and has a glaringly obvious, painfully slow animation. Big damage right there, probably break the game if it wasn’t so easy to avoid.

That in turn reminds me, I keep seeing these posts about condi damage being the only stat condis need. With the same amount of condi damage but no condi duration, the same attack does ~2.3k, and scepter autos do ~550. With maxed out condi damage and no duration, it’s 2.6k/600.

If an autoattack doing 600 damage is gamebreaking, I can see nerfs inc everywhere. Once again, all these numbers are against targets with absolutely no condition removal or being spammed with condis so hard that their removal never hits the bleed stack.

Two things that could actually use looking at are signet of spite, either make the animation extremely obvious or just straight up nerf it back to 5-6s duration on the condis, and a much clearer animation on mark of blood. As far as other condi professions, they’re all fine imo.

You have to be kidding me if he was doing 1-2k with staff he was some kind of glass cannon build and those were crits and you are still exaggertating. Necros still need plenty of “shaving” to use A-nets ludicrous lexicon. Conditions are op.

1k hits, 2k crits, half that on high armor, and I’m pretty sure he does fine with the build since he is currently top 50 on team boards with over 600 games played.

Scepter auto does half that, meaning it does about the same damage to high armor targets and less against anything else. It does attack faster though, so overall probably does the same DPS, once again, assuming no condi removal. More to high armor targets, less to low armor. Of course you have to watch out for that 3.4k ‘burst’.

I noticed something while watching a dps guard streaming the other day. His staff auto was doing 1-2k aoe damage (600 range), and the whole time he was doing it he was complaining about stuff like necro scepter auto, which does ~750 single target (900 range) when you include the bleed.

The biggest ‘hit’ on a necros s/d set is now enfeebling blood, which does ~3.4k aoe damage on a 25s recharge if the bleeds somehow tick for fifteen seconds without being removed and has a glaringly obvious, painfully slow animation. Big damage right there, probably break the game if it wasn’t so easy to avoid.

That in turn reminds me, I keep seeing these posts about condi damage being the only stat condis need. With the same amount of condi damage but no condi duration, the same attack does ~2.3k, and scepter autos do ~550. With maxed out condi damage and no duration, it’s 2.6k/600.

If an autoattack doing 600 damage is gamebreaking, I can see nerfs inc everywhere. Once again, all these numbers are against targets with absolutely no condition removal or being spammed with condis so hard that their removal never hits the bleed stack.

Two things that could actually use looking at are signet of spite, either make the animation extremely obvious or just straight up nerf it back to 5-6s duration on the condis, and a much clearer animation on mark of blood. As far as other condi professions, they’re all fine imo.

Should’ve been watching gw2pvptv when Powerr and Grouch streamed earlier. Powerr ran 3 different specs on 3 different professions and all happened to be extremely effective against the condi builds he knew he would be facing. One of them cleansed 6 conditions from your team every 10 seconds, another cleansed 3 conditions per nearby player on your team (including yourself) every 10 seconds, and the third was the standard stuns and stances cleansing ire hammer warrior.

Of course everyone in stream chat was laughing about how nonviable the first two builds were while he repeatedly won games and fights.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2pvptv/b/459590680

Auto pressure does make fights end faster than most people seem to enjoy. It also makes saving your cooldowns comparatively less rewarding, which is one reason people complain about spam, since spamming your abilities is enough to get by in hotjoins etc.

It would probably just be too much though. You’re literally talking about rebalancing the entire game. Passive procs, healing, spike damage and therefore control all get stronger.

GankSinatra.2653:

Probably havent played WoW in over 2 years.

But what i remember from playing a resto shaman, WoW is about ten times as twitchy and fast paced. Absorbing a <1.5 second cast poly with a totem while keeping an eye on your teammates and enemies because a missed second will put you too far back in healing, an interrupt that is up every 4 seconds and must be used fully or the game is lost, i havent seen this kind of quick reaction being that necessary 99% of the time here.

1.5s is an eternity, especially with instant interrupts and cast bars. That’s kind of like saying earthshaker is hard to dodge. Except earthshaker is quite a bit faster.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

That’s a possibility, though this bug has proved tricky to fix, as it seems to only occur on the live servers.

Latency issue then?

Rozbuska.5263:

Steal Stability from Engineer.. That joke made my day:-D

Elixir X is kind of good in cannon room if they can’t.

Darnis.4056:

Mez/thief; Steal their stability, pull them into a hole. works every time.
The easiest target is a target that feels invincible.

This. Do it from stealth for extra rudeness.

Conan.8046:

MMOs had been around for over 20 years before WoW, and if you want to exclude MUDs for some arbitrary reason, more than 10 years with graphics. You may have been new to them at that time, but they weren’t new.

Strickly speaking Wow is an MMORPG which is different. However MMO’s in the 1980’s were just text games. Ultima was the first serious MMORPG and it was made in 1997. Wow was 2004. However if you looked at the numbers pre Wow, MMORPG was a very niche market.

MUDs are MMORPGS too, but since you’ve decided on the arbitrary reason you’re going to use, the first graphical MMO of any category was 1986. If you want the first graphical MMORPG, it was not UO, but Neverwinter Nights, 1991.

Once again, market size doesn’t determine game quality. In fact, WoW was explicitly designed to be a more casual friendly version of Everquest, where everyone could get boss kills and there was less of a grind to level. This is because they recognised that the majority of players are casual. That doesn’t make it a better game than Everquest (although I think it is, by a long, long way), it just makes it more casual friendly, and therefore more popular. Farmville is twice as popular as LoL, which is the better game? Which is friendlier to casual players?

Conan.8046:

Let be clear MMO’s were in their infancy when Wow was new, most people didn’t know how to play. Just 3 or 4 keybinds put you way ahead of the game. People didn’t really know how to play…there was no guides, no pro’s and the pioneer’s of great pvp became legends. You can’t recreate that.

MMOs had been around for over 20 years before WoW, and if you want to exclude MUDs for some arbitrary reason, more than 10 years with graphics. You may have been new to them at that time, but they weren’t new.

This games pvp is in my top 3 for mmos and I’ve played a lot of games. WoW would be a long way back. Oh, and my number one pvp mmo had about 200-250 concurrent players at peak, it’s one of the games WoW devs said they drew influence from. They didn’t seem to adapt much of it though. Once again, popularity doesn’t make a game good.

Sigh. Something being popular doesn’t make it better. Mcdonalds is not better than a 5 star restaurant. Wow is literally the Mcdonalds of MMOs. I played it for years, and I enjoyed it, but I’m not blind to its faults, and they are many.

Besides, just like every forum, people whine about the game they’re playing more than any other game. I’m not sure why you would start a thread defending wow out of nowhere.

Follidus.8027:

Mammoth.1975:

If by perfection of combos and team work you mean ‘durp I got him 3x, you get him next or DR lolol l2 stopcastfocusinterrupt my cc harder noobs’, then yeah.

I hated everything about macros, but just curious, what was your name on WoW? I find that a lot of people that only hit glad or something think they were amazing at the game when really… they weren’t.

Same name, and I was about as terrible there as here :P

This would work exactly counter to what you’re hoping. Conditions have better sustained output than power. The longer the fight, the more likely the condition team will win. Power spikes harder than conditions. The more health people have, the harder they are to spike down.

Extra vitality is protection against ‘condi burst’ if you’re having trouble with that I guess, and it does buy you time for your removals to come off cooldown. In general though, there’s a cost for being able to coordinate with 1-2 teammates to instagib someone, and that cost is lower sustained output vs protection+toughness.

If by perfection of combos and team work you mean ‘durp I got him 3x, you get him next or DR lolol l2 stopcastfocusinterrupt my cc harder noobs’, then yeah.

I played competitive wow and it’s a total durp by comparison. Focus cyclone, heal, focus cyclone, heal pretty much sums up the gameplay of every comp, including those without druids. Chain CCs, interrupt CCs, ggwp. Plus it’s just so slooooowww. 1.5 second GCD is kind of 2004.

Also, kitten having to set up stopcast macros for everything and kitten having to nolife or bot to get competitive accessories every season. Skill plays right there.

Of course it had a higher pvp population, the pvp was so simplistic a 3 year old could work it out. Arenas were a perfect example. What’s the objective? Kill the enemy. Ooo strategery. Put the same players in AB and they had no kittening idea where to go or what to do.

Yeah I’m not actually disagreeing with the premise Jroh, just pointing out some problems that could arise, and a problem with the line of reasoning.

There is also the argument that reacting to passives, that much laughed at comment, does actually take skill. Even if you can’t get your pet to knockdown, or he does it early, you can take advantage of that by chaining other CC into it.

jcbroe.4329:

Mammoth.1975:

One problem is that it would be much too easy to chain CC. You can do it now, but you have to know how to get your puppy into position to leap. Make it a button press and GG everyone can do it.

Because warriors, necros, and guardians have such a hard time chaining any CC they have….

Sure, but leap>fear>leap>stun isn’t supposed to be in the ranger toolbox, and it’s actually more consecutive CC than anything except a warrior can do. Canines could potentially need a nerf.

More relevant however is the fact that good rangers can already ‘persuade’ their pets to use certain skills when they want them to, so the whole argument about lack of pet control being easier is a little bit misleading.

One problem is that it would be much too easy to chain CC. You can do it now, but you have to know how to get your puppy into a position where he prefers to leap rather than anything else. Make it a button press and GG everyone can do it.

Shrug, go ahead and explain where my line of reasoning changed course.

Moon.6371:

Thanks for bringing real arguments, I get your point and agree to a certain extend, at least regarding having more viable options than other classes. But I wish we had more depth and variety for equal condition pressure as well, since I don`t like be narrowed down to one option and slight variations.

Is it a bad thing to ask for more diversity? I don`t think so, and I don`t think the impolite poster who was sharing my opinion (too lazy to spell his crazy name) had any other intention than bringing up that issue.

No feelings hurt on my side, best regards.

Same argument I’ve been using all along. You just seemed to focus on me saying that I had run a non dhuumfire spec to top 100 and decided it was bragging rather than evidence of viability. I understand that you may not consider that evidence of viability, and that’s what I tried to address in my last post. Communication issue is all, not unusual on internet forums.

Getting around 10.5-11k eviscerates and 10k whirling axes. I like warrior!

+1 for your first suggestion. Tension between sustain and burst, and addresses a major problem shatter mesmers have right now. That gives mesmers more chance of seeing play. That’s good in itself, but it also puts a slow on warriors, which is probably needed right now. Big step towards a healthy meta with a variety of possible comps.

The tension is key, because it’s not a buff to to their strengths, it’s a buff to counter their weaknesses somewhat, improving their versatility and therefore their chances of remaining viable no matter what happens with other classes.

The only thing you would need to be careful of is completely removing that weakness. You still want them to be weak to conditions, just not so weak that they see no play at all whenever condis are seeing play.

Watched CMC yesterday, he was great fun. I think a big part of that was his chilled out attitude. Example: when he got smashed by a S/D thief, he didn’t complain about S/D thieves, just pointed out that he has about 5% to win that and it’s by far his worst matchup.

I am amused that warriors have double the votes of the second place. Months of crying about condis, people finally figure out the counter, now we’re going to have months of crying about warriors. If there is a problem, it is that s/d thieves and necros counter eles and mesmers much harder than mesmers and eles counter warriors. It’s not warriors that need adjusting so much as s/d thieves and necros, once sigil of para gets fixed anyway. Or you could improve eles and mesmers against necros and s/d thieves. Multiple ways to attack the problem, either of which is better than nerfing warriors, unless you want to see a few more months of condi meta.

I play necro btw, and I voted dervish :P

If you consider less than a quarter of gw2s sales a massive following. Actually, if you’re just talking about launch day, wow had less than 10% of GW2. It seems like not many people here actually played vanilla wow.

Moon.6371:

@ Mammoth:

Poor try, kid. As I said before, SoloQ doesn`t indicate skill, to brag about SoloQ achievements is like bragging about being king of unrated battlegrounds in other games. People who know, what`s up, play it just for fun, since ego 1on1 builds dominate and teamplay is reduced to… well it`s very low.

TeamQ does indicate skill however, when somone is taking it seriously and plays an adequate amount of games. I played less than 60 TeamQ games total, nonetheless I`m matched versus EU`s finest teams whenever we queue. Yeah, we lose more than we win, but with the amount of games played compared to our opponents, lack of experience and map knowledge is deciding factor, not individual player skill. You could ask for example Mogwow from Car Crash (EU`s best team atm) what he thinks about my level of play, you`d be surprised.

Somehow I knew you`d try bringing this up, when your arguments aren`t sufficient anymore. You really seem to be a very young person, pretty full of seeing himself on a ladder and reducing every discussion to the point where you`d compare your deluded ego and position on that ladder to the person you`re discussing with. So you`re the king of the kindergarten and want to show how special you are? Try discussing like a grown up without bringing your e-pride into it.

My posts were based on objective arguments, you should give it a try.

You’re still trying to shift the goalposts.

We have multiple viable specs.
Power doesn’t count!

We have at least one non dhuumfire condi spec for solo queue.
Solo queue doesn’t count!

It’s also better than dhuumfire for average skill team queue games.
Average games don’t count!

If you were genuinely playing to win you wouldn’t be crying about only having one spec, because you’d realise there is always only one best spec for each situation. So the narrower you make the criteria where a build needs to work, the closer the number of viable builds approaches to 1.

The really silly part about all this talk of the multiple viable builds we had before dhuumfire is that for months, very few teams were running necros with any success. Pretty viable.

Ostrich for that music!

Stealth.9324:

Faceroll, correction : Faceroll…Thank you my auto-correction :P

I still want to know what a facestorm is and why your phone thinks that’s what you meant.

Wow was the first pvp mmo! I lold.

BTW, if you’re not having fun, I don’t know what you’re doing here tbh.

Moon.6371:

@ Mammoth:

Selling your opinion as fact won`t help making your point. SoloQ (NA even moreso than EU) is in no way an appropriate measure of viability or equality of effectiveness, sorry to break it to you. Try again when you do something meaningful in TeamQ EU around Top 100 with your build. You`re bragging again trying to sell it as objective expertise.

I never said, we don`t have build options, they just aren`t remotely as effective as they used to be, especially compared to 30-20-0-0-20. And Anet is doing its best to widen the gap even further.

Please keep your fail assumptions regarding my reasons for arguing for yourself, passive-aggressive wording doesn`t make it any better. It`s kindergarten-rethorics, pretty pathetic to be honest.

Best regards

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

It doesn’t really matter if a build is viable in top100 team queue when you’re not even top1000. Seeing as you’re in the 80% bracket in solo queue and 90% team queue, it will work fine for you, better than dhuumfire. Try it and find out for yourself.

Adian.8756:

Mammoth.1975:

Adian.8756:

Except, it’s currently impossible, as you stated in your initial post. With the massive amount of endurance regeneration, even if I were to perfectly time my Churning Earth when my enemy was completely out of endurance, he’s easily able to regenerate enough to dodge the skill, in the 3 seconds casting time. And even if he isn’t, blocks and/or invulnerable can still do the trick.

Well that would be one reason why I don’t like churning earth

But then we’re back to the meta being bad, and not the skill

No, we’re back to churning earth having a 3 second cast time, while stuff like eviscerate, earthshaker, or signet of spite take about 1 second to land, making tracking enemy dodges worthwhile. They’re still very easy to dodge if you have endurance and are not CCed, even with lag like mine, and they still have a similar level of impact. No idea why something would need a 3s cast time.

Kata.6795:

While I agree with your definition of what makes a good skill, I think the game would have to take some pretty big redesign hits; mesmer phantasms being a good example.

Very nice points with dodging and stability/invul. Perma vigor is way too rampant vs power classes, but you wont have enough dodges in the world to avoid a condi spam build, as no matter what you dodge, they can just continue to spam conditions.

This is the common misconception people have with condis I think. Take a necro. If you dodge enfeebling blood, which has a huge tell, you avoided about 3k worth of bleeding, and a long duration weakness as well. If you dodge a scepter auto you avoided about 600 worth of bleeding. Condi hits are just like power hits, there’s big ones and little ones, and you have to know which ones to dodge. The main one that could probably use a clearer tell on necros is mark of blood. It’s a lot of aoe bleeding on a short cooldown with a fast and unclear indicator. That would alleviate the problem people have identifying the other marks too.

BTW, I have fought guards who dodged every third scepter hit until I had 9 stacks of bleed up, then when a poison landed, finally used their first shout to clear both. Knowing the order the other guys skills are likely to come in is just as relevant as knowing their tells. This is one of the many reasons that the spamming everyone complains about fails against competent players.

Adian.8756:

Except, it’s currently impossible, as you stated in your initial post. With the massive amount of endurance regeneration, even if I were to perfectly time my Churning Earth when my enemy was completely out of endurance, he’s easily able to regenerate enough to dodge the skill, in the 3 seconds casting time. And even if he isn’t, blocks and/or invulnerable can still do the trick.

Well that would be one reason why I don’t like churning earth

Adian.8756:

But keeping track of how much endurance your enemy has, when traits give 50% increased regeneration, vigor gives 100%, sigils recharge another 50% on swap and skills can recharge it as well, is fairly tough.

It is, but in exchange you get to land a 5000 aoe crit, 8 stacks of bleeding, and cripple. Make sense?

Adian.8756:

Mammoth.1975:

Come on now, churning earth? Even with lightning flash churning earth is only hitting you if you’re under CC pressure from someone else as well. The game is fast, adapt. You’ll be asking for GCDs next.

I don’t think you quite understand why I think the skill is well designed.

- Good animation
- Good Risk/Reward ratio
- You can interrupt/Dodge it reliably.

The problem is not that Churning Earth is slow. The problem is that dodges, stability, aegis, vigor etc. are so spamable, that Churning Earth never hits. Imagine if you had to carefully time your Churning Earth, because you visually saw that your enemies was out of dodges. This is what makes a great skill.

I guess it’s just a difference of opinion on the risk reward ratio. I can get behind evisc being well designed, although not the only well designed skill, because I think it is appropriately telegraphed in exchange for what you get. I also agree with concussion shot being well designed, even though it’s a fast skill with a potentially very strong effect. Churning earth though? Good for killing AI i guess?

Also, you should be saving your easy to dodge and/or high impact skills for when your opponent is out of dodges. If some people are able to track that and others are not, it’s not the games fault.

Come on now, churning earth? Even with lightning flash churning earth is only hitting you if you’re under CC pressure from someone else as well. The game is fast, adapt. You’ll be asking for GCDs next.

Well designed = slow as kitten? Even streetfigher had weak punch.

Moon.6371:

@ Mammoth:

Someone`s pretty full of himself, ha? Try to grow up, kiddo, I don`t care a bit about your great “achievements” and since I was talking about condition based specs, I`d like to recommend less bragging, more reading comprehension. Anybody`s opinion is welcome on these forums afaik. I get it, you feel like you`re a very special little princess, but please understand, there are grown ups visiting these threads as well.

I think you’d have to have a pretty strong inferiority complex to take a completely unadorned statement of fact and turn it into ‘bragging’. You were supporting Hisazuls little capslock tantrum about dhuumfire obsoleting all other condi specs, and I told you I played a condi spec with no dhuumfire to top 100, so I guess it didn’t.

Apparently however, you would rather complain about dhuumfire than go look at that spec, modify it to your taste, and find out for yourself if condi specs without dhuumfire still work or not.

Oh, and if you can’t figure out the relevance other classes lack of build variety has all on your own, allow me to help: Necro has more viable builds than most classes. There will always be ‘good’ specs and ‘bad’ specs, simply because one build will always be .0001% better than another in the same specific areas.

Shrug, we had different builds before the giant terror buff too. The game changes, adapt or die I think is the saying. Plenty of top necros are running power specs atm, compared to just one that I can recall last year, Khalifa. So we have viable power and viable condis for a change. Plus there’s Xoms metagame spec that he played to top 100, and the no dhuumfire condi spec I posted in the post your builds thread that I played to top 100. There are probably other viable alternatives to 30/10/0/0/30 for power necros as well. If your positioning and awareness is super pro, you could probably still make a Powerr style hybrid work too, but it would be a pretty brave choice in the world of stunwarriorspam. Doubly so in solo queue, where only a very few players seem to do basic things like peel for their teammates.

Compare to mesmers, who have been 20/20/0/0/30 for….ever. Or eles, who have always had at least 20 in water and 30 in arcane to be competitive. Warriors right now are not going to do well without 30 in discipline. Rangers have been x/x/30/30/0 for months. I don’t know much about thief and engi specs, but guards at least have a couple of options for bunkering and the semi bunker hybrids are good for solo queue too.

Also, since I apparently need to point it out again, it’s not dhuumfire that is doing all the extra damage, it’s expertise. Dhuumfire has just finally given pure condi builds a reason to go into the expertise tree.

Oh, and please don’t ask me to avoid diminishing someones input when they open their post with ‘your obvious lack of self respect’.

Yah, +1 for stof. I float around constantly, ranging from top 100 to sub 400. You get good streaks and bad streaks, and so do the players around you. BTW the level of player ability deteriorates really fast. Below 300 or so it’s basically hotjoin tbh. Most of the top 50 regulars are significantly better even than most of the people in the 100-200 range. There are exceptions both ways, but it is very noticeable.

Could be indicative of low pop, but if 17,000 people have played, I’d expect it to be a bit of a smoother curve in terms of skill, particularly when it comes to the very basics. As it is, it seems like some people get it, and some people just don’t.

dejay.2598:

edit ~ actually just checked, and I decayed to 170 over about 3 weeks. Meanwhile, my friend who played in the first week of solo que is still at rank 52 (decayed from 30) with a 12-4 record LOL

He’s going to be dropping faster and faster now as players around him who still have W/L percentages above 50 continue to gain rating.

Do you think the difference between axe chain and whirling is going to make up for only a stage 2 evisc in the burst? Seems like it’s about a 20% loss on the eviscerate.

Even if it’s not I guess it’ll be close enough that I should just sacrifice it for the benefits of a shield hey?

Hmm, I just tested and I’m doing about 3k less damage in the same amount of time with auto vs whirling… something to do with scaling?

Tom Gore.4035:

Mammoth.1975:

OK the hammer is even more fun, but man is the adren slow on that thing, really gotta build with axes. Earthshaker>whirling axe>eviscerate is truly obnoxious.

I went all in rallybot spec 30/10/0/0/30 just relying on stances and stuns for defense and I am now hitting 18k with that 3button combo on the indestructible golem. 11k of which is aoe. Crazy fun on clocktower.

Hammer builds usually have Cleansing Ire from the defense tree and Burst Mastery from the discipline tree. No shortage of adrenaline.

That’s what I was using initially but I still found it really slow :-/ I guess it’s just compared to axe.

That’s good to know about the axe auto, but it doesn’t refill my bar for stage 3 evisc

This thread seems productive, can I join in?

QQQQQQQQQQQ

Surely you have better things in your life to whine about HiSaZul.

I lold. I hope there’s some kind of matchmaking change coming. Soon.