Guild Wars 2

Using strong builds doesn’t make you a noob, using kittenty builds does. Unless you’re testing, in which case you don’t cry about facing strong builds, because that’s the whole purpose of testing. I wouldn’t take their tears too seriously.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Just because I couldn’t find one.

Best

Arheundel.6451:

Yeah…if talking would be enough..there would be no wars…you live in a fantasy dude!

If Anet would move already and fix this broken matchmaking..there would be a lot less rage

That’s all rage is. Talk. Child’s talk at that, poor impulse control. The kind of behaviour that would get you spanked in the real world. That is, if you had the intestinal fortitude to actually try speaking to someone that way.

Action is covering for your team when they’re outmatched, and if you can’t, focusing on why that is, what you could do differently next time you get a bad team. Action is not having a little tantrum at your team because you couldn’t cover for them. That’s talking.

I don’t know how accurate the ‘cosmetic crap’ thing is anyway. It’s mechanical, not aesthetic.

+1 Bhawb.

Low mobility is one of the things that defines necro as necro in gw2. If that style of play doesn’t suit you, you should be checking to see if one of the other professions might fit your playstyle better. What are you willing to trade for more mobility?

30/25/0/0/15 spvp. Semi hybrid. The damage is obnoxious. I’m starting to like it more than 30/20/0/0/20. I think I have been heavily underestimating spiteful spirit.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAW7YjMad6xbGb07JEoH7i0AixMOmgh+Q5A-TsAgyCuI+S9l7LzXyisFNEZJyeBA

The crit rate means you get ~25% less dhuumfire procs than a rabid amulet (average of 13.8 seconds between procs instead of 11.2 seconds). Also means earth sigils aren’t really worth using. I’ve gone with battle, you could go for geomancy if you preferred.

3k power makes up for those losses, and then some.

Kwll.1468:

You can’t step up in this game sadly in a lot of situations that’s rah rah nonsense. If A-net would do a better job with tutorials and proper matchmaking a lot of the rage would dissipate. Have you ever played sports? Try going to the local park and playing in a competitive pick up game and be a complete newb and see what happens. The fact of the matter is people expect a certain level of competence when you engage in a competitive endeavor. This is A-net’s faults for not putting people against the right competition and not giving newbies tools to learn the game. The small segment of posters on this board that consistently make excuses for A-net and try to find anyway possible to put blame on the players annoy the heck out of me. And I am not excusing this behavior I am more saying big deal that is what ignore is for welcome to the real world where sometimes people get angry and stupid stuff gets said. I wonder what kind of bubble some of you live in.

Hey if you don’t want to win more, keep raging

But yeah, what Poxxia said. If you think people who stay focused and adapt instead of having a little tantrum when things don’t go their way are the ones who are living in a bubble and need an introduction to the real world, I have news for you.

Anything you have to take is potentially too strong. Not overall, but relative to other traits. And you almost have to take terror as a condimancer.

BTW, the ‘relative to other traits’ means there are a variety of solutions if the trait does turn out to be a problem, ranging from making the trait baseline greater marks style, to buffing other traits, to just an outright nerf. It just depends on how strong the professions other traits are and how strong the profession is overall.

I like this idea. The more ways to get PvE players to try PvP, the better. I’d never play it, the gear is inherently imbalanced, which is why it isn’t currently allowed, but I don’t see it pulling players away from more balanced environments.

So, since I saw some hotjoin horrible yelling at a brand new rank 8 about how bad he was yesterday after I 1v2’d them, doing his best to drive away new pvpers, I figured quite a few people still haven’t seen this. It’s worth a watch, even though it’s very much focused on LoL.

Blaming your team – it’s always been the clearest sign you are bad, and it always will be. And yes, sometimes you do get bad teams. It’s how you handle that which shows if you’re any good. Do you step up or do you cry and whine? Are you usually the guy who carries or the guy who gets carried? Because the first guy doesn’t complain about his team not being as good as him, he’s used to it.

The only RNG on these things is when they’ll proc, not if they’ll proc. At least that was my experience when using them as a necromancer. Classes that rely on active defenses and thus get hit less but take fewer hits to kill probably have a different experience.

Continued from above.

Death

Necromantic Corruption – minions dont attack very fast, and 10% is not very high.

Death Shiver – good trait, stacks a lot of vuln and covers well.

Reapers Protection – ridiculous on skyhammer, cooldown too long otherwise.

Greater Marks – good trait. Making reapers unblockable is awesome. Making the rest unblockable is ok. The extra size is no longer mandatory, but still relevant. If it increased them to 270, it might see some play here and there.

Staff Mastery – good trait. Reducing the cooldown on mark of blood is a big dps boost, and reducing the cooldowns on the rest is a big utility boost.

Ritual of Protection – good trait. With 3 wells, ritual mastery and a little boon duration you get huge protection uptime out of this.

Minion Master – if you have fetid consumption, you probably want this, otherwise you probably don’t. It’s ok i guess.

Dark Armor – has the potential to be good in one specific build, conflict with shrouded removal negates that potential.

Protection of the Horde – no thanks. On average its a bigger toughness boost for a minion master than other classes get, but no one is taking those traits for the toughness boost, they’re taking them for the reduced cooldown. The pure toughness guardian equivalent buffs for more, buffs allies too, and doesn’t depend on using specific utilities (and how many of them are alive). Of course, it’s a major.

Reanimator – not bad (ooo necro forum heresy). The little buggers last much longer and behave much more intelligently than they ever used to. The damage was always low, but still not a bad boost. Even if they just get hit once and die they’ve done a good job. Pretty bad in pvp though.

Blood

Vampiric – underrated, like all the siphon traits. If my dagger hits for 800, and siphon hits for 40 and heals for 40, its an extra 10% life swing on that attack. Also great on channels.

Fetid Consumption – the only reason I ever run minions in pvp. Too strong. Also has the same issue with minions being an all or nothing kind of thing.

Deathly Invigoration – great design in theory, super awkward in practice. This and mark of evasion need their activation triggers swapped. ‘Deathly Mark’ and ‘Evasive Invigoration’ would give necros a good chance at being viable bunkers.

Transfusion – I think we all know the problem with this one.

Ritual of Life – no one wants to stand in a well after reviving. You just got cleaved to hell, you’re not sticking around for more.

Mark of Evasion – good trait, probably too strong, even with the reduced bleeds.

Bloodthirst – traits positioned to conflict with the traits they buff are not the best design call imo. 20% of a 10% boost is also less than amazing.

Soul

Mark of Revival – good trait, nearly worthless in the current meta.

Vital Persistence – useless for pvp, maybe good in pve if your group is already maintaining 25 vuln without Unyielding Blast. Probably not though.

Great thread Bhawb +1’d.

Just the ones I have an opinion on one way or the other:

Biggest problem – only one focused condi trait in the entire expertise tree.

Spite

Dhuumfire – not good. Between the icd and the fact that condis dont get much benefit
from crit elsewhere, this ends up being fairly awkward. I understand the desire to force us into a wider stat allocation however I don’t think this is the best way to do it.

Chill of Death – good design but probably too strong. Chill is a very strong effect, especially on targets that are under pressure, and chill of death hits pretty hard. For power builds, this is not all that far from ‘your team deals ~30% more damage’ in pvp.

Training of the Master – good, but this and flesh of the master are possibly too strong. Minions being balanced around them causes them to be fairly weak untraited, meaning you’re either a minion master or you’re not, no mixing minions with other utilities. I do occasionally take this when running nothing but golem though. I don’t know if you could buff minions base and reduce these traits without making them worthless anyway.

Spiteful marks – weak, not particularly well designed. Yes, putrid can hit hard, but we’re not generally using marks for DD.

Spiteful Spirit – decent trait. The only flaw is that you kind of need to build around it to get maximum benefit from it (high power, boon duration and lf generation, low ds cooldown). The problem with that is ‘build arounds’ based on boons have a pretty obvious and easy to exploit weakness.

Signet Mastery – good trait, maybe a bit conceptually flawed. The might stacks are meh (and were particularly meh when they were a whole trait) due to long signet cooldowns, but the reduced cooldown is great.

Spiteful Removal – never used it, probably never will. If i just got a kill I’m much less likely to be in a situation where i have to worry about condis, and I already have a lot of answers anyway.

Spiteful Talisman – good trait. The extra range on focus 5 is especially awesome.

Siphoned Power – terrible since the fix. Everything hits way too hard to make a might stack per hit below 25% relevant.

Curses

Terror – strong trait, not sure if I’d call it good, only because adding that much damage via traits limits build variety. Not by forcing you to spec a certain way, but by pushing you to, and by forcing you to choose specific traits at specific points if you do spec into the tree they’re in. Same applies to dhuumfire.

Spectral Attunement/Master of Corruption – good traits. I would often like to take these, but usually cant over terror. Especially master of corruption, since builds running multiple corruptions are usually going to be condition based.

Focused Rituals – should be baseline.

Reapers Precision – should be 100% on crit.

Weakening Shroud – probably too strong with the new weakness. Nice design though, probably does more to preserve your life force than vital persistence ever could.

Chilling Darkness – problematic trait. if youre not taking plague and well of darkness, you’re probably not taking this, because 1s just doesn’t do enough with our other blinds. on the other hand if you buff this while keeping the functionality, plague and well of darkness become too strong.

Toxic Landing – not a bad falling trait, poison fields are very strong. I hate falling traits in general though. Fine for the reduced fall damage in wvw I guess.

Target the Weak – not a bad trait. Quite balanced for power builds, and situationally strong. Not good for condi builds. Strong for hybrids.

Flornicus.4176:

You guys are all awesome, thanks a ton. I like the idea of spectating mesmer players to see what makes them tick. What do you guys do about how difficult it is to execute them though? Is there some way to hamstring their ability to make a clone when down?

Also, very interesting read BlackBeard; I’ll have to work on distinguishing what type of mesmer the opponent is.

The player will have a downed player icon over his head, the clone will not. The clone will also appear first, don’t stomp it, just wait a second and the player will reappear.

The amount of defense is not disproportionate. Unless you think 285 vit is worth 15% crit damage?

They simply don’t have an option to ditch it for an equivalent amount of offense. If they did, you can guarantee they would.

Power has a much larger effect on a power builds output than precision and crit damage, so shouldn’t we see more soldiers amulet builds being run if the amulet stat weighting favors defensive stats?

I would love to have expertise on an amulet, but if you think it would somehow weaken condition builds to replace carrion or rabid with it, you’re badly mistaken. Even if the amulet+jewel combo was only 10% duration, to keep it approximately on par with the 20% crit damage amulets+jewel combos. If you went further and removed the 330 points of defensive stats a berserker equivalent would have and added the extra 10% duration that would equate to, well, I’d like that even more

Just skimmed, might have already been suggested, but how about if they worked like an extra attunement while active? So you activate it, you get a ‘conjure’ button next to your attunement buttons, allowing you to switch between your conjured weapon and your standard weapon at will, provided the conjure still has charges+duration remaining.

You lose some of the flexibility to use them with things like piercing shards, but you remove the ‘locked out of your class mechanic’ problem. Alternatively they could behave like a kit or weapon swap while they have duration+charges. No matter which attune you’re in, you can swap to your conjure, and then back to your primary weapon set.

redslion.9675:

Mammoth.1975:

redslion.9675:

Let’s take the example of the engineer.

All condi heavy hitters are much harder to avoid than power heavy hitters.

Example: with condi damage, shrapnel grenade can deal up to 4k damage, even more. At short range you can’t reliably dodge a certain grenade (they all look the same).
Poison grenade puts an AoE effect on the ground? You dodge it? Who cares! You get poisoned once you get out of the dodge. Incendiary Power is unavoidable.

Power skills are much more readable/short ranged or on a longer cd. Example: Jump Shot. Grenade Barrage (you have to stand on top of the enemy to deal full damage). Toolkit skills (autoattack is slow, crowbar deals meh direct damage for being a melee skill on a long cd… but has good confusion). Blunderbuss needs you to be CLOSER than melee range.

Conditions skills are more spammable and less telegraphed than power skills, at least for engi.

I actually agree with you in general, but that is the worst example I have ever heard

Grenades hard to avoid? Static discharge spikes easy? Reduce your drug intake :P

Well, you have to spec deep to use static discharge, and chains are on a longish cd. I never went anywhere spamming single discharges.

Grenades are easy to avoid at LONG range. But you should use it at near point blank range.

And, most importan than all, if you are close enough the enemy won’t have time to tell what grenade you are throwing. You might bait dodges with autoattack and then land a chill grenade.

Range has to be used only in wvwvw, to make sure people on walls can’t reach siege weaponry.

You’re suggesting that people will let an engi get close and stay close, which is something I try to avoid doing as much as possible. I think we just have to agree to disagree on this particular example.

I’m thinking about it a little more though, and I’m not 100% sure I can get behind your main point after some reflection, for necros at least. Aside from mark of blood, every ‘high’ damage condi attack from a necro has a huge tell. I think mark of blood could use a really obvious animation btw, as it would remove the ambiguity from all the other marks too, now that reapers is so obvious. Since the other two are primarily used for their utility, the animation is less relevant than the situation. The other one I can see being problematic for necros is tainted shackles, as even if you just land 2 stacks of torment, that’s a significant amount of damage, and there’s little anyone can do about it.

We also disagree on at least a few engi attacks. I find nades and bombs much easier to avoid than rifle attacks, largely due to the CC on rifle meaning you have to double dodge to avoid any of the high damage attacks, and endurance has limits, whereas nades and bombs require you to stick in melee range, and even then bombs have huge delays. Aside from blowtorch, which doesn’t see large amounts of play, pistol condi attacks don’t do much unless you get a good static shot set up either, and once again, this is because the ‘high’ damage attacks are so easily avoided. I keep putting high in quote marks because they’re actually pretty low when compared to DD attacks. Engi pistol auto is a really good example of how crap the damage on condis can get.

The thing about double dodges is actually true for everyone too. If your weapon set has a high damage attack and a form of CC, you’re going to land that high damage attack pretty regularly, because if they want to dodge the high damage attack, they also have to dodge the CC first. Shield bash>eviscerate and so forth (not that axes see a lot of play either, but it illustrates the point clearly I hope).

redslion.9675:

Let’s take the example of the engineer.

All condi heavy hitters are much harder to avoid than power heavy hitters.

Example: with condi damage, shrapnel grenade can deal up to 4k damage, even more. At short range you can’t reliably dodge a certain grenade (they all look the same).
Poison grenade puts an AoE effect on the ground? You dodge it? Who cares! You get poisoned once you get out of the dodge. Incendiary Power is unavoidable.

Power skills are much more readable/short ranged or on a longer cd. Example: Jump Shot. Grenade Barrage (you have to stand on top of the enemy to deal full damage). Toolkit skills (autoattack is slow, crowbar deals meh direct damage for being a melee skill on a long cd… but has good confusion). Blunderbuss needs you to be CLOSER than melee range.

Conditions skills are more spammable and less telegraphed than power skills, at least for engi.

I actually agree with you in general, but that is the worst example I have ever heard

Grenades hard to avoid? Static discharge spikes easy? Reduce your drug intake :P

Lopez.7369:

I agree with most of that analysis, except I prefer Spectral Armor.

So did I for many months, but I’ve pulled off some ridiculous things with spectral walk. Z-axis mobility is just so strong. The only time I slot spectral armor now is when I go full troll because my team is full of warriors and guardians and I’m the only viable target. Spectral armor, spectral walk, well of power, run like hell while my team kills stuff :P

Been saying for months necros shouldn’t lose 1v1s to warriors. It’s team fights where they mess you up. Well, when built that way anyway. I prefer spectral walk over flesh wurm for that particular encounter, since you can stunbreak then teleport instead of stunbreak and teleport, giving you a bit more flexibility in how far you teleport and potentially getting you out of two separate stuns. After months of hating on it, I’ve come to the point where I now think it is the strongest personal survivability tool necros have.

I usually run well of power to stunbreak these days though, and just blast off it vs warriors for an extra blind to somewhat make up for the lack of a teleport. You give up the weakness from poison blast but weakness is surprisingly irrelevant for the matchup. If they’re hitting you you’re probably boned anyway. The well is a little less effective for you personally, but helps your team more when you’re not the target, and is situationally better anyway.

The blind on plague signet is the main thing though. It pushes you past a kind of CC threshold, allowing you to kite/blind/dodge/stunbreak/teleport for long enough that they die before they can chain stuns into you and shut you out from using any of your defenses.

The reason they destroy you in team fights is one CC/snare from one of their teammates, or using one of your defensive abilities on anything except the warrior puts you below that threshold again, and suddenly you’re a punching bag, unless your teammates are babysitting you hard. Considering your shortest CD blind is also your shortest CD cleanse, they don’t even need to use CCs or snares to force you to use abilities that would otherwise keep you alive against warriors, they can just put condis on you, putting you into a kitten ed if you do, kitten ed if you don’t situation. If you don’t cleanse weakness you’re dead, if you use your blind on an autoattack you’re dead.

The problem with the matchup is that it’s so heavy on the control elements. The necro is either not being hit, or dead in seconds.

shimmerless.4560:

I’m pretty sure he means that once a condi lands, there’s no defense short of a cleanse that has any effect.

So you can’t defend against them after they’ve already hit you? Kind of like direct damage attacks then?

manveruppd.7601:

Am I to understand that the OP is complaining that he is losing to teams of higher rank than his own?

Working as intended surely? Low priority problem, I agree that slightly more even matchups would make solo queue a tiny bit more enjoyable but I don’t think this is something that resources should be allocated to…

Really? It’s one of the only problems that is entirely in Anets hands. The rest is mostly down to terrible players.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/This-game-is-too-hard/first#post2612700

Brew Pinch.5731:

Ignoring the very important fact that the majority of this damage is dealt over 5-6 seconds.

In that time:

• Regen may be running, mitigating the damage.
• You might cleanse, preventing that damage.

You forget to mention that a direct damage auto-attack is capable of critical strikes in excess of 1k damage without taking traits/sigils into account.

In short, your argument is very flawed.

You should stop and breathe. I didn’t make an argument, I gave numbers. You should also follow the link in the OP. Or in fact, just read the OP. It’s refreshing to see deliberate ignorance displayed via attempts to downplay facts from both sides of the discussion though. Nice change of pace.

Similar experiences here, although I don’t think I’ve ever fallen out of top 500, since I had a lucky initial run with no leavers that I can recall, so I can’t comment on that.

The only point I would disagree with is “tweener” builds, if you’re referring to hybrids. I think you’ll find that most of the (active) top 100 is filled with moderate survivability/moderate damage builds. Only thieves are really getting away with glassy builds, mesmers to a lesser extent, and the reasons for that should be fairly obvious. This is NA though, I have no idea what’s going on in EU.

The rest I agree with, and some of it is fairly problematic. Matchmaking in particular needs a fix pretty soon. There’s actually no way I’m a top 50 player. The matchmaking system has carried me there by matching me with excellent players against players who are decent but will never have a shot against the kind of stacked teams you get pretty regularly.

Mathematically it makes sense of course, because if you do manage to lose when you’re favoured you get an appropriate rating loss, and an appropriately small gain for winning, but it still seems off somehow. I just don’t know enough about the math to figure out if there’s a flaw in it somewhere.

jportell.2197:

LOL I’d rather use an auto-attack that is useful and has better AOE damage like ohhhh hammer…. Think about that. After saying that a guardian doing nothing but AA with staff is going to Outdps a condi necro I am officially done responding to you that has got to be the most ridiculous load of bull I have ever heard ever.

Once again, math is your friend, because no one cares what you ‘feel’ to be the case. You want to cry about condi damage, you’re gonna have to prove that it’s higher than a kittenty dps weapon like guardian staff. Shouldn’t be hard right?

I’ve done the math for necro scepter for you, although I can add the other damaging abilities on S/D if you like. Go grab Arken Elrics guard build from gw2pvptv and compare. Running some quick tests, I’m getting 1051 average on the indestructible golem, which is 1491 average ranged cleave damage against 1836 armor. Slightly (~4%) less than scepter against 2600 armor, significantly (~34%) more against minimum armor. Build I’m using is 5 points different though.

jportell.2197:

Mammoth.1975:

jportell.2197:

Oh yes that soldiers guardian deals so much damage with their extremely obvious animation slow auto attacks and short leaps. That’s soooo much damage man!

He’s doing it with staff. Yes, outdpsing necro with staff. Think about that fact before you post again, avoid making yourself look even sillier.

Staff auto attack? Or maybe dat symbol of swiftness does so much damage? Wow… I don’t even just wow…. Staff auto is good for the wide range but is it gonna out DPS well anything? HA! Just HA!
The orb damage is low as well even when detonated plus the ridiculously long cooldown when detonated. Staff is great for healing, getting some self healing through AH via symbol of swiftness and Empower and line of warding for area control. Lemme tell you man line of warding is the most damaging skill in this game OP as “kitten” /sarcasm.

Yeah, staff autoattack > scepter autoattack. Think about that. Also, orb > grasping dead. Empower is going to be the cause of more dps than enfeebling blood too, although the healing isn’t going to protect your team as well as the weakness on enfeebling blood. The other two abilities on both sets are just utility.

jportell.2197:

Oh yes that soldiers guardian deals so much damage with their extremely obvious animation slow auto attacks and short leaps. That’s soooo much damage man!

He’s doing it with staff. Yes, outdpsing necro with staff. Think about that fact before you post again, avoid making yourself look even sillier.

jportell.2197:

Mammoth.1975:

jportell.2197:

I think you are missing the entire concept of risk v. reward. Even if the numbers are off as you say but others have shown they are spot on, the amount of risk a high direct damage build has to take to get the similar reward of say a high condition damage build is way up there. Where as condition damage builds can sit there and spam AOE condis at range with little to no worry about the risk…

You really want to bring up numbers again? The statement has proved false every time. But yes, I’m pretty sure several classes could swap builds and gear to be tankier without their dps dropping below condis. If you’re doing 50-100% more damage per attack like the scepter vs longbow example, you’ve got quite a lot of wiggle room.

Really bringing up power longbow rangers again…. trolls gonna troll. Unless you mean warrior in which case the longbow is more of a condition weapon but only used in direct damage builds to help build adrenaline faster.

I could use any number of examples. When guardians that aren’t even full dps spec deal more damage with their support weapon, to be blunt, you’re a kittening idiot if you’re still crying about condis doing more damage than you.

jportell.2197:

I think you are missing the entire concept of risk v. reward. Even if the numbers are off as you say but others have shown they are spot on, the amount of risk a high direct damage build has to take to get the similar reward of say a high condition damage build is way up there. Where as condition damage builds can sit there and spam AOE condis at range with little to no worry about the risk…

You really want to bring up numbers again? The statement has proved false every time. But yes, I’m pretty sure several classes could swap builds and gear to be tankier without their damage dropping below condis. If you’re doing 50-100% more damage per attack like the scepter vs longbow example, you’ve got quite a lot of wiggle room.

Actually, a good example would be the hybrid guardian I mentioned before. More survivability and more damage than a necro, with just as much utility, if not more. But less damage against high armor targets, and more difficulty maintaining his time on target.

jportell.2197:

And how useful would this long bow ranger be to a group? You know why there aren’t very many long bow zerker rangers in PvP because they drop… FAST.

Not sure how your post is relevant to my point, which, in case you managed to forget again, is that this statement:

Med.6150:

The general potential damage of a condition applying attack is way higher than that of a single power attack

is untrue.

Besides, maybe they should spec tankier and reduce their damage output to the same level as condi builds if they find they’re dying too fast to be useful as full glass.

Oh I thought of a third one.

3. PvP monetization.

If we want more resources for the pvp team, someone somewhere is going to have to be shown that it is financially sound to allocate them. Right now pvp may bring in some players, but with the lack of connection between the mists and the rest of the game, those players probably have a much lower rate of conversion to paying customers.

I have zero idea how you could monetize it tbh. Skins aren’t really my thing, but maybe that would work?

Knote.2904:

Um. Burn tics once per second.

Yeah I may have over estimated burn dmg for spvp, but even 2k condi dmg is 825 tics. And my necro spec with 50% cond duration even has 1300 cond dmg.

250 from sigil and 12 might stacks alone can put that even higher. Engy is quite known for high might stacks. And necro has access to blood is power and the might spam trait.

It’s still a large amount of passive mindless dmg.

1300 gives you those 630 ticks, and 50% duration gives you 3 ticks. Dhuumfire has 2s base duration in pvp. Your dhuumfire does the same as mine. If you get 25 corruption stacks, yeah, it’s going to be higher, but do you really think that’s what you should use for your example? Likewise, you could run BiP, but it’s pretty bad. Stunbreak+corrupt + either sig of spite or epi is more typical.

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Sure, 1000 damage from eviscerate, and 400 from an autoattack, 400 from another autoattack, etc. Whether the damage is equal, higher, or lower isn’t what I’m getting at. It’s a passive damage buff. If you’re unhappy with the specific numbers, that’s worth discussing, but the passive proc nature is no different to a million other traits.

No dhuumfire proc is ever going to do close to 6k btw. Not even incendiary powder does that, and it’s twice as effective.

Yes, but you have to commit to the target, you have to actually land attacks.

And yes with high enough condition dmg 1k burn tics aren’t that far-fetched. And Dhuumfire already gets 30% duration boost, which puts it just 20% shy of 6 seconds.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I agree with you, the ICD/‘compression’ on dhuumfire gives it an advantage in real situations. You only need to land a couple of attacks every 10 seconds or so to proc it. You’ll never kill someone with dhuumfire alone though, so you’re going to have to land attacks anyway, just like someone trying to max their benefit from axe mastery.

You might want to check your numbers btw. I think you’re referring to pve numbers, with 4s base duration and 2k condi damage etc. My dhuumfire hits for 1890 in pvp.

It will always be atleast 5 seconds because it requires 30 in the Power tree hehe.

How on earth are you only getting 1890 burn dmg with 2k condi dmg and 4 tics?

I don’t have 2k condi damage. You can’t get 2k condi damage in pvp. You can’t get 4 ticks in pvp either. My burns tick 630, and I get 3.

Well, you could probably get close to 2k condi damage with 25 corruption stacks and 25 might stacks, and you can get 4 dhuumfire ticks with 51% or more burning duration and a lot of luck or incredible timing, but most of the time, it’s ~1890.

tarcheg.4872:

Actually with blowtorch + poison dart you need to be able to cleanse in the next 10-12s. If you think everyone has a cleanse every 10s I don’t know how much you played this game.

Please, it’s getting really awkward. Unload hits harder than blowtorch. Dem p/p teef 2 strong.

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Sure, 1000 damage from eviscerate, and 400 from an autoattack, 400 from another autoattack, etc. Whether the damage is equal, higher, or lower isn’t what I’m getting at. It’s a passive damage buff. If you’re unhappy with the specific numbers, that’s worth discussing, but the passive proc nature is no different to a million other traits.

No dhuumfire proc is ever going to do close to 6k btw. Not even incendiary powder does that, and it’s twice as effective.

Yes, but you have to commit to the target, you have to actually land attacks.

And yes with high enough condition dmg 1k burn tics aren’t that far-fetched. And Dhuumfire already gets 30% duration boost, which puts it just 20% shy of 6 seconds.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I agree with you, the ICD/‘compression’ on dhuumfire gives it an advantage in real situations. You only need to land a couple of attacks every 10 seconds or so to proc it. You’ll never kill someone with dhuumfire alone though, so you’re going to have to land attacks anyway, just like someone trying to max their benefit from axe mastery.

You might want to check your numbers btw. I think you’re referring to pve numbers, with 4s base duration and 2k condi damage etc. My dhuumfire hits for 1890 in pvp.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Yes, ofc full zerker deals more dps than any condition build, I’d say even most pve players know this. It should be noted though, that in pvp the tankiness of the condition player gives him indirect offense as he doesn’t have to worry about getting hit that much. Zerker players have to play more carefully and so generally can’t land their attacks as often as condition players.

Yeah, that’s very true. You can push a lot harder with a tankier build, maintaining some offense while being pressured, which balances it out a bit.

Generally though it still lags behind. Take that amulet I posted earlier. Condi classes would do a LOT more damage if that was in the game. They’d be as vulnerable as berserker builds, but I guarantee you it would be the standard choice.

If you want to kill a non bunker fast, you want a power build. Same as ever. Condi debuffs and armor ignoring damage makes life hard for bunkers, power based spikes are better against average or worse armor and/or low active defense targets, because they simply hit harder and also have better compression.

tarcheg.4872:

Except for the poison grenade example the golem would still die when attacking right after the “golems heal”.

No, it wouldn’t, because heavy golems have 22k health now. Seriously, let it go.

tarcheg.4872:

If power dmg is higher how come you didn’t already post how you can kill a heavy golem as easy as my stated examples?^^ Cause there is none?

Let it go bro.

Sure, 1000 damage from eviscerate, and 400 from an autoattack, 400 from another autoattack, etc. Whether the damage is equal, higher, or lower isn’t what I’m getting at. It’s a passive damage buff. If you’re unhappy with the specific numbers, that’s worth discussing, but the passive proc nature is no different to a million other traits.

No dhuumfire proc is ever going to do close to 6k btw. Not even incendiary powder does that, and it’s twice as effective.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Mammoth.1975:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.

Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.

Naturally. However, while both ks and pin down have about the same potential damage on a target with no defense, the condition user can himself remain very tanky unlike the direct damage user who has to be full glass.

Generally though, power damage is higher. Go through and take a glance at each weapon set.

Pin down vs KS is an outlier, and that’s primarily because warriors have so few covers, making condi warrior sub par in general. Pin down simply doesn’t deal as much damage as KS in real play, and it’s one of the few examples that are on par under ideal circumstances, along with some of the torment and burning abilities.

Condi damage is lower, and yes, part of that is due to amulet restrictions forcing condi classes into tankier playstyles.

Knote.2904:

Yes, but Dhuumfire is a very large passive dmg increase.

So is axe mastery. It’s actually a lot higher than dhuumfire against a dummy. This is where the ICD on dhuumfire works in it’s favor though, because you don’t need 100% uptime to max the damage you get from it, unlike axe mastery, and a dummy is the only place you get 100% uptime.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Against a glass cannon perhaps. But try against a bunker with protection up. You will hit less than 5k.

Try pin down against anyone, anyone at all, because they all have cleanses. It’s the same issue. You’re either talking about with defense, or without, you can’t have it both ways.

tarcheg.4872:

Yes when fighting real targets the situation appears that you run out of cleanses (but it will never happen that you have no toughness from your amulet).
And this whole thread is about that conds are too strong in these situations in which you have no cleanses. That’s all.
If you have no cleanses and get hit by 1-2 wrong abilities you are kittened and that shouldnt be the case and that’s unbalanced compared to power abilities.

OK, so you want to talk about real situations, which is fine. Can’t really quantify that though. There are builds that just don’t run out of cleanses, there are builds that have barely any. It seems likely to me that you’re running with barely any, since you clearly have a real kitten for condis.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Kill shot will not do that much damage in spvp. You hit around 13k to 15k on glass cannons, but that requires you to be a full glass cannon as well. You also need to build all your traits over the burst dmg to get that high damage, and even then it’s possible that you do not crit.

Nah you’re doing it wrong. I’ve hit over 16k even without banner of discipline up. You’re almost correct about the true issue though. Condis need precision and expertise along with malice, but they don’t need nearly as much precision as power builds. Replace half the toughness on rabid with 15% expertise (making it a berserker equivalent) and see how quickly people swap to it though. The problem isn’t that you don’t need to give up as much defense to max your condition damage, it’s that you can’t.

tarcheg.4872:

So we finally have reached the point were we make “everyone else should stop sucking” arguments. Took some time for you put you finally made it.

Sorry, relevance? Since you seem to have missed it, the point is that you’re trying to talk about real targets when it comes to power damage, and zero defense targets when it comes to condition damage. After this whole thread, you’re still trying to have it both ways.

If you’re unwilling to do a balanced comparison, you’re going to keep getting incorrect results. I mean a golem isn’t ever going to be a balanced comparison anyway, since they actually do have some armor (since power attacks would do infinite damage to them otherwise), but they have no cleanses and will stand in a poison field for the entire duration, but they’re easy to use. Still not weighted enough to give you the result you want, so you’re trying to skew it further. This is the problem with making up your mind before you actually do the math.

Yeah fixed it up sorry. Use warrior axe mastery instead. I wasn’t accounting for the kittenty base damage on ranger axe

Not really the point I was driving at though. They’re both passive damage increases. If dhuumfire procced poison or chill or an interrupt, some kind of utility, then it would be worth talking about the problems with passive procs.

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Void.4239:

Think we all can agree that burning should not be allowed to proc on crit for any class.
Its just to powerful of a condition compared to the other damaging conditions.

Either it should have be access to burning OR access to the other damaging conditions.
Should not have been allowed for 1 profession to get burning + other damaging conditions.

I actually don’t know if it’s OP or not for Necro’s to have access to burning.

With proper sacrifice to get it perhaps, but it’s bad to have things this strong completely passive.

If they wanted to give Necro access to burning it should’ve just been with torch as a weapon (green fire as well wink wink) with attacks in your control.

Which would also require giving up another offhand for that burning access.

It’s basically a damage buff, although it’s a cover condition for 3 seconds, which is important. Nonetheless, complaining about it being passive is equivalent to complaining about something like http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Honed_Axes being passive. It boils down to the same thing, more damage on crits.

Honed Axes doesn’t even come close to the dmg output difference lol.

A better comparison would be Halting Strikes, something even Helseth complains about. It’s a similar example, because it’s just random massive dmg procs off of PASSIVE TRAITS, for doing virtually nothing that requires skill.

Interupting is mostly random in this game, and it’s even hard to fail to interupt because people are constantly doing something.

Actually they do similar damage, because honed axes has no ICD. Warrior axe mastery would have been a better example though.

tarcheg.4872:

On the other side people DO die from getting hit by a pin down or a blowtorch+poison dart etc…

Then ‘people’ need to stop sucking and cleanse. Unless by ‘people’ you mean ‘golems’.

tarcheg.4872:

Because that’s what the thread is all about. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and read it very carefully. It says that cond dmg is too strong when no cleanses are available. But most classes run around with cleric/ rabid or have high base armor like warrior.

Sorry, you’re trying to stack the comparison. ‘Most classes’ bring condi removal. You’re either comparing maximum damage, i.e no armor, no cleanses, or real damage, which means armor and cleanses.

If you want to compare high armor targets with no cleanses, well, I’ve already covered that on the previous page too.

tarcheg.4872:

So you still say that you can kill a heavy golem with less effort with a power class than with cond class?
Did you read the part that one pin down kills the target. One poison grenade? Or one blowtorch + poison dart?
I wanna hear some example of powers classes killing THAT easy a heavy golem. Please enlighten all of us.

Why are you talking about heavy golems? We’ve been over this too. If you want no cleanses, you accept minimum armor. Minimum condi damage mitigation vs minimum power damage mitigation, otherwise the comparison is flawed. If you want to talk about ‘actual players’ armor, you have to talk about ‘actual players’ cleanses.

tarcheg.4872:

I’ll try to explain it to you one last time. The problem we are trying to explain is the “fire and forget” game play of cond classes. They attack you with 2-3 skills and the dmg is so high that you are very likely to die if you can’t cleanse yourself.
Examples:
Engi does: blowtorch + poison dart —> kills heavy golem
Engi does: poison grenade --> kills heavy golem (you could add a shrapnel grenade for the over kill if you don’t wanna wait for the whole poison minute)
warrior does: pin down —> kills heavy golem
etc…

We’ve been over this. The highest damage you could come up with for an engi was 8.3k, self buffed, crit, with three procs at once. A ranger can do 8.3k, self buffed, crit, with one proc. Most likely more than that to be honest, since that was just a quick test, I highly doubt I reached the maximum. Damage per attack is not higher with condis. In general, it’s a fair bit lower. There’s nothing much else to say about it.

Perhaps you should be complaining about the fire and forget nature of direct damage, because condi classes need more time on target to deal the same amount of damage.

I’m not opposed to reducing condition durations without reducing dps btw, although that would be a gigantic buff to condi classes. I’m simply opposed to bad information.

Knote.2904:

Void.4239:

Think we all can agree that burning should not be allowed to proc on crit for any class.
Its just to powerful of a condition compared to the other damaging conditions.

Either it should have be access to burning OR access to the other damaging conditions.
Should not have been allowed for 1 profession to get burning + other damaging conditions.

I actually don’t know if it’s OP or not for Necro’s to have access to burning.

With proper sacrifice to get it perhaps, but it’s bad to have things this strong completely passive.

If they wanted to give Necro access to burning it should’ve just been with torch as a weapon (green fire as well wink wink) with attacks in your control.

Which would also require giving up another offhand for that burning access.

It’s basically a damage buff, although it’s a cover condition for 3 seconds, which is important. Nonetheless, complaining about it being passive is equivalent to complaining about something like http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Honed_Axes being passive. It boils down to the same thing, more damage on crits.