Guild Wars 2

Infiltrators return could be reverted I think if they reduced the return distance to 600 and limited tbe availability of it to around 7-10 seconds.

About some of the acrobatics traits:

Fleet of foot needs to include all conditions, no ICD. This would allow for a decision to be made whether the cleanse is important enough to burn the endurance or should it be kept for the potential to dodge later damage. It should synergize well with SoA, but still not be quite as powerful as warrior condi removal or engi condi immunity.

Hard to catch needs to be replaced with something that synergizes with dodging better. I think it would be an opportune place to exchange it with flashing blades as a trait (bringing back a cool GW1 skill). It could be something as simple as whenever you successfully evade an attack, you blind and damage the attacker within 180 range. Unique, fitting of an evasive playstyle, but not even as strong as retal as the range is limited and the blind halves the damage procs since they would “miss” rather than be “evaded.”

With those 2 changes, I think the Acro line could be on par with the SA line with reliable, active defenses.

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Maugetarr.6823:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

“How can we make stealth fun to [..] play against"

Impossible.

Already fun. I enjoy high risk hide-and-seek.

I think its very fun walking in a straight line, turn 180 and PW the invisible thief to death. Then interrupting him with Steal and immobilize him with infiltrators strike. Slash a few times and tadaa…

But I think the majority of the GW2 players are very annoyed by the amount of new gimmicky D/P thiefs

At least you get it too. The twitch combat in GW2 is a lot of fun and playing as a thief or one of my alts against thieves is very fast paced, fun combat to me. When I’m learning a class or build it can be frustrating because I don’t remember when to use/where the clutch skills are but that’s a learning issue for me.

As for D/P, I suggested a change that someone brought to the balance forums and that I put in the upcoming balance patch thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Thief-Black-Powder/first

I’ve had it miss both to people walking just right and client side lag. Very frustrating when it’s lag.

I don’t think it’s fake! That new necro one (not the shark) is right in line with the new necro heal! :P

OGDeadHead.8326:

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

“How can we make stealth fun to [..] play against"

Impossible.

Already fun. I enjoy high risk hide-and-seek.

Some of the changes you suggest are reverting skills to a previous state where they were largely too weak.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

You’ve missed the mark again. We’re not talking about FPS games. We’re talking about a specific kind of MMORPG. Please, guys, if you can’t actually do anything but grasp at straws—well, I guess I don’t mind the bumps.

Also, your analogy is pretty bad.

We’re talking about a game where they didn’t implement the trinity so it’s not exactly following all the formula of all the others. It’s different and unique but you’re trying to change it into a vanilla MMORPG format.

Also I like the analogy of having instant kill headshots versus other classes that have to run around and get kills. If the games were only limited to all assault rifles it would be pretty bland.

As far as I can see it, he’s moving away from a vanilla MMORPG. What those bring to my mind is linear combat decided mostly on stat differences (i.e. investment in grinding) and builds (hard counters/strategy in an organizational sense, i.e. having outcomes decided entirely around what builds face what builds), with individual player capabilities as a secondary or tertiary concern.
For the FPS analogy: I don’t see this as particularly valid, seeing as how in FPSs health is so low that the difference between a sniper killing speed and an assault rifle is pretty low (in terms of time between opening fire to death). If snipers/noobtubes were the only way to remove a target’s health in only a few seconds, while assault rifles took upwards of ten seconds, I think you would start to see the difference.

I don’t get that at all from these suggested changes. As a thief main, I have been killed by each and every class at some point and it has been largely determined by player skill during those encounters. I can see some of the complaints about grinding, but that is a completely separate issue from this. Most of the thief skills have decent telegraphs, except 2 of the stealth attacks (BS and TS). Those attacks even have a set up and positional requirement so it’s not as if there is no counterplay available. These changes lower damage while simultaneously slowing them down, thus if you’re hit by the new slower attack, it doesn’t even pose as much of a threat. In fact the argument about instant cast abilities (in this thread and the ele thread) seem largely tautological/circular as something along the line of “Instant cast abilities shouldn’t exist because MMOs don’t have them and GW2 is an MMO.” There are a couple of builds in this game that need minor tweaks, but these changes largely remove the unique mechanics and flavor of thieves (which do exist, even though the author refers to them as nothing more than stupid, evasive, blind-spammers in the ele thread). Based upon reading the ele thread, I don’t think the author is impartial enough to do anything more than nerf the thief.

As for the FPS analogy it can be up to 6 hits with an AR (depending on game mode) versus a single shot with sniper rifle. Considering though that at most you’ll probably get 3-4 attempts at hitting someone in the timeframe that the AR can throw out a full magazine there are tradeoffs to each weapon (hmmm starting to sound like a GC build versus a balanced build). Still if that analogy doesn’t work for you there’s nothing I’ll probably be able to argue that will make it seem like it to you.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

You’ve missed the mark again. We’re not talking about FPS games. We’re talking about a specific kind of MMORPG. Please, guys, if you can’t actually do anything but grasp at straws—well, I guess I don’t mind the bumps.

Also, your analogy is pretty bad.

We’re talking about a game where they didn’t implement the trinity so it’s not exactly following all the formula of all the others. It’s different and unique but you’re trying to change it into a vanilla MMORPG format.

Also I like the analogy of having instant kill headshots versus other classes that have to run around and get kills. If the games were only limited to all assault rifles it would be pretty bland.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

So basically guild wars doesn’t play exactly the way you think it should play. Have you stopped and thought that it is playing and handling those playstyles, but you’re not? That’s why you’re having to make drastic changes on all the classes, even those you consider close to perfect.

There are very clear conditions that have to be met when constructing a PvP environment in an 3rd-person MMO that employs auto-targeted attacks but also forgoes a dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. This isn’t about what anyone wants; this is about what it takes to make a balanced and engaging MMO combat system without dedicating an entire player class to actively manage the party’s red bars.

In any case, you’re not attempting to argue any of the points that I’ve made.

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes. Your changes will slow down the game and make it less interesting (for me). The problem is that the game doesn’t fit how you think it should be played, but it very nearly fits mine with both tactical and twitch skills needed to play it well. Implementing your changes would make the game bland.

Swagg.9236:

Cynz.9437:

you still didn’ answer what are those rules you are talking about and what are those “fundamental aspects”… please, enlighten me

1. What is a dedicated healer within the context of an MMORPG?

• A dedicated healer is a mechanic that constantly extends the effective HP of a single target or sometimes many targets simultaneously. This single mechanic not only almost instantly organizes a party composition but also dictates how that party fights in battle.
• The healer/damage mitigation class mechanic is an unfair mechanic because of how effective it can be at keeping players alive. To counter this, DPS classes and spike-damage classes come into existence.
• With the presence of a healer/damage-mitigation class as an unfair mechanic, the assassination/debuff class(es) make headway in game-play as an equally unfair counter-mechanic by delivering huge amounts of damage/debuffs/CC in short periods of time in order to balance combat out so players don’t just end up living forever.

2. Guild Wars 2 has no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. With this comes three crucial points to keep in mind when designing the game:

• Every profession must be granted some form of innate self-defense mechanic in order to mitigate incoming damage. We have that in the form of healing skills and the invulnerability frames granted by the dodge mechanic. Good positioning on the battlefield is also a defensive mechanic available to every class, but it’s less of an implied mechanic than the other two because it’s useful primarily for ranged classes and isn’t necessarily activated by pressing a button.
• Without a dedicated healer/damage mitigation class to actively counter unfair offensive mechanics such as instant-activation or poorly cued damage, all high damage sources or potentially game-changing CC in GW2 should therefore always be well-cued in order to give the opponent an opportunity to counter-play. Without proper counter-play windows, the game is reduced to “Whoever presses the most buttons the fastest wins.”
• In addition to the minimal profession-wide damage mitigation abilities, each profession must have additional, clutch manners of mitigating incoming damage. The ways in which each profession mitigates incoming damage is an opportunity to further define its play-style.

3. Guild Wars 2 is a game that was designed to have players read their opponent’s skill cues as a means of providing counter-play windows in which a player could dodge, block, blind or quickly reposition in order to avoid damage. To this effect, ANet has designed several manners of reading an opponent’s skills such as:

• Post-cast effect delays
• Red circles
• Projectiles that can be blocked, reflected or destroyed
• On-caster visual cues
• Long cast-times
• Gap-closer skills that requires the player to run or leap to a target/target area

However, despite these various cues and their important nature in governing balance, there are a many slew of skills in GW2 that forego 2 or more of the above balancing principles. These skills should be looked at critically and either nerfed or functionally changed in order to bring them into line with how combat should appear in-game. Giving certain weapon sets or play-styles free hits for certain skill usage in a game where the “holy trinity” is absent is asking for trouble.

And that’s basically it. Because there’s no “Holy Trinity,” the vast majority of the Thief play-style as well as the play-styles of many other professions just simply don’t belong in Guild Wars 2 because the way that they inflict damage typically forgoes a lot of the basic principles that govern balanced combat in GW2. The game was functionally not designed to handle those kinds of play-styles. That’s why a lot of these changes are so drastic.

So basically guild wars doesn’t play exactly the way you think it should play. Have you stopped and thought that it is playing and handling those playstyles, but you’re not? That’s why you’re having to make drastic changes on all the classes, even those you consider close to perfect.

Black Box.9312:

If this will stop people from QQ’ing about stealth being OP, then I’m all for it.

It probably won’t, but I could get behind this as well. Seeing a few thousand damage pop up in the combat log after a thief stealths might help assure people that stealth =\= invincibility.

Usually I play on my desktop, but when I travel, I play on my laptop with an i7 and intel graphics 4000 (I.e. no graphics card). It is possible, but the game has to be on the absolute minimal settings.

Xaylin.1860:

Maugetarr.6823:

The linked video was an example of how knowledge of thieves and your own class can help you counter them with relative ease. Your specific response based on your class and equipment may vary. Since this thread was about thieves pushing out damage dealers, I thought an example of a shatter mesmer (i.e. damage dealer) would be an appropriate example to show. It is very possible for other classes besides mesmers to kill thieves.

I think you are having a slight misunderstanding here. He wasn’t talking about bringing Thieves down in the sense of beating them but in sense of tuning them down in a reasonable manner so they don’t universally replace other classes in PvP.

“Reasonable” as in added cast times, ICDs, and a 15-25% damage nerf. I don’t consider that reasonable, that’s a severe cut to thief effectiveness.

Stogzlol.4795:

Arganthium.5638:

Looks like you haven’t gotten any smarter.

Swagg.9236:

Guild Wars 2 was a game with combat designed around the player anticipating an opponent’s moves and appearance by reading the opponent’s actions and gear,

No it wasn’t, otherwise there would be visible casting bars.

then either preparing a plan of attack or actively counter-playing properly after the opponent had engaged.

Then there’s the Thief.

Is that supposed to imply that thieves can’t be actively played against? That certainly seems to be what you’re saying, though in the context of your next statement

The Thief is a profession so innately crippled; with such a one-dimensional and predictable play-style that it requires evasion tanking, blind spamming, direct-to-target teleports and super-high damage on every attack in order to compete with any other class in the game in its only function: kill the selected target. In order to be remotely functional in GW2 combat, the Thief has to break every single rule in the “How to balance combat in GW2” book. This isn’t to say that other classes don’t break these rules in their own ways, but the Thief is founded on breaking those rules, making the entire class a mess that goes against the fundamental conventions that govern balanced GW2 combat.

You seem to be contradicting yourself (not to mention you have no evidence to back up your claims about how the game was designed).

Furthermore, Thief attacks, thanks to their universally high base damage

Empirically incorrect. First of all, thieves have no additional base damage stats; as a matter of fact, all classes have the same base offensive stats. As a result, what we really have to look at are damage coefficients. Let’s use one of the highest weapon coefficients that thief has- 1.5 on LS (we could compare with BS, but there are a ton of attacks that do lots of damage just barely wouldn’t make the list). So let’s see what skills have Standardized Weapon Coefficients greater than 1.35 (90% of LS’ damage)(including multi-hit attacks):

Elementalist

• Fire Grab
• Churning Earth
• Dragon Tooth
• Phoenix (Explosion)
• Drake’s Breath
• Burning Speed
• Meteor Shower
• Ice Spike
• Lightning Surge
• Eruption

Engineer

• Jump Shot
• Blunderbuss
• BoB
• Grenade Barrage
• Flame Jet
• Detonate Flame Blast

Guardian

• Whirling Wrath
• Faithful Strike
• Mighty Blow
• Smite (at least 5 strikes)
• Zealot’s Defense
• Sword Wave
• SoWrath (explosion)

Mesmer

• Phantasmal Berkserker
• Illusionary Warlock
• Confusing Images
• Blurred Frenzy
• Phantasmal Duelist
• Illusionary Riposte
• Phantasmal Swordsman
• Phantasmal Warden
• Mind Wrack (three clones)

Necromancer

• Ghastly Claws
• Life Siphon
• Life Transfer

Ranger

• Maul
• Counterattack
• Rapid Fire
• Barrage
• Hunter’s Call

Thief

• Backstab (back side)
• Heartseeker (< 50%)
• Unload
• Pistol Whip
• Cluster Bomb

Warrior

• Hundred Blades
• Rush
• Arcing Slice
• Fierce Blow
• Backbreaker
• Earthshaker
• Arcing Arrow
• Volley
• Kill Shot
• Triple Chop
• Eviscerate (any)
• Pulverize
• Counterblow
• Skull Crack
• Final Thrust (either)
• Whirling Axe

And that’s not including AoE pulses or conditions, neither of which thieves have in abundance. Of course, not all of these skills are very good, or hit often enough to always do more damage than LS, but many, many of them deal more damage than LS does anyways (100b only needs to hit a few times to do more damage, for instance), and to act like all of these skills are worse than thief’s skills is, quite frankly, absurd and ignorant. Thieves quite definitively do not have more damage “universally” than other classes do.

All I have to say to this, you made no point comparing thief to other professions with HIGHLY TELEGRAPHED, CASTED and/or CHANNELED, COOL DOWNED abilities to a thief whom is under telegraphed few cast times, few channels and no cool downs.

The only thief skills that aren’t “highly telegraphed/channelled” are Tactical Strike and Backstab. The requirements for setting those up (CnD, BPS + HS, smokescreen + HS, SR) are all highly telegraphed with the exception of blinding powder and traited steal (the latter of which I’ve never seen used).

Burnfall.9573:

Maugetarr.6823:

MonMalthias.4763:

how would you bring Thief down in such a way to let other Glass cannons have a place? How would you bring Thief up to let it stay in the fight longer and pose a threat to tanky DPS or Bunkers?

You don’t need to bring them down. Beating thieves comes down to knowledge of both your class and the thief class, and a bit of practice. To really be a threat to bunkers, LS needs to steal 2 boons, but have its damage halved or more so you choose between the evasion/boonsteal and damage, and using LS restarts the damage from the AA chain encouraging the use of endurance dodges rather than weapon skill dodges.

Here is what I mean by knowledge of both your class and the thief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74Ad1CnN1vI

If you skip to about 3 minutes he starts fighting against several thieves in a row as a glassy build. Keeping calm and knowing what to do and when goes a long way against thieves

(Thanks to Joe for posting this in the mesmer forum. He’s a good player)
As for making eles viable again, they need to just revert some of the nerfs they’ve done, not bring the thief down.

Maugetarr,

First of all, not every class have access to clones and stealth.

You do realize if that mesmer did not use clones, he/she would’ve long been dead correct?

In other word,

your suggestion and advice only belong to the Mesmer class.

Remove clones and stealth from a Mesmer and and redo that same video and see how long t the mesmer will last against the thief.

My Suggestion; give all class access to stealth and clones, than we all can give suggestions and advices to fighting thieves.

The linked video was an example of how knowledge of thieves and your own class can help you counter them with relative ease. Your specific response based on your class and equipment may vary. Since this thread was about thieves pushing out damage dealers, I thought an example of a shatter mesmer (i.e. damage dealer) would be an appropriate example to show. It is very possible for other classes besides mesmers to kill thieves.

Aza.2105:

Maugetarr.6823:

You don’t need to bring them down. Beating thieves comes down to knowledge of both your class and the thief class, and a bit of practice. To really be a threat to bunkers, LS needs to steal 2 boons, but have its damage halved or more so you choose between the evasion/boonsteal and damage, and using LS restarts the damage from the AA chain encouraging the use of endurance dodges rather than weapon skill dodges.

Thief already has bountiful theft, so stealing two boons is definitely too much. It would be different if LS had a static cooldown but it doesn’t. Unlike other classes affected by weapon cooldowns, thief can chain LS as long as they have the initiative to do so.

Because of initiative, LS chaining would make boon oriented classes obsolete. Since there is no way to outpace a thief chaining LS due to boons being tied to skills with static cooldowns.

2 boons on a minimum 21 second cooldown where you do not get the stack or duration (rather you destroy 2 boons and then gain those for a short time) is not too much.

This change would force the thief to either steal boons or deal damage. As it is right now, it is very easy for boon bunkers to throw up cover boons so that you never get to the bunkering ones. That was wy they tried to institue boon hate in the first place. They problem was that they nerfed eles after they instituted that, nerfed FS/LS to being less useful than it had been pre buff, and left guards to still be able to produce boons easily leading to the current disparity between those that can bunker with boons and those who can’t remove them in a fashion to kill them or push them off point.

MonMalthias.4763:

how would you bring Thief down in such a way to let other Glass cannons have a place? How would you bring Thief up to let it stay in the fight longer and pose a threat to tanky DPS or Bunkers?

You don’t need to bring them down. Beating thieves comes down to knowledge of both your class and the thief class, and a bit of practice. To really be a threat to bunkers, LS needs to steal 2 boons, but have its damage halved or more so you choose between the evasion/boonsteal and damage, and using LS restarts the damage from the AA chain encouraging the use of endurance dodges rather than weapon skill dodges.

Here is what I mean by knowledge of both your class and the thief:

If you skip to about 3 minutes he starts fighting against several thieves in a row as a glassy build. Keeping calm and knowing what to do and when goes a long way against thieves

(Thanks to Joe for posting this in the mesmer forum. He’s a good player)
As for making eles viable again, they need to just revert some of the nerfs they’ve done, not bring the thief down.

Imagi.4561:

Zero Day.2594:

Originally by: hihey.1075

What: Stealth and Damage
Why: However, everytime I find a thief, no matter what, I just die. And the problem is, I can’t even see him! I just go around, then bam! Dead! I got hit by 18k spikes out of nowhere. And when I see the thief in front of me and I manage to avoid his attack, he will just go in stealth in another gimmicky way and backstab me from behind! I can’t even use my heal, because his burst is on a 0s CD!
Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thieves-need-nerf

Judging from the build he posted, I’d have to say that thread is just a troll.

Yes it is, but were still allowed to have fun with joke nerf wishes amongst the hordes of ridiculous yet serious nerf suggestions.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

Is chaining CnD really considered perma-stealth now?

It’s always been perma stealth chaining. Moreover, it inflicted high amounts of damage. By toning the damage down and putting a definitive cap to the amount of stealth that it can apply within a certain time frame, the skill turns into an attack-primer.

Maugetarr.6823:

Furthermore 40 seconds CD for a powerful attack? I think you need to rethink what you consider powerful in this game for that length CD:

People really underestimate the power of CC in this game. It comes from a combination of stability being overtuned and people being spoiled by high damage skills.

Moreover, your list is entirely out of context. You can’t just throw out CC-related skills as examples because they all exist within the context of a weapon set or build.

Furthermore, CC is typically powerful enough in and of itself. CC skills really don’t require much damage if any at all. Keen use of most CC is enough to turn an encounter around. That list does have a lot of salient examples of CC that’s a bit overtuned because its paired with excessive damage and I’d like to address those individually in my other threads or in future threads.

Finally, I’m still looking over my suggestions and people’s reactions. I’m still constantly making additions and modifications to everything on an almost daily basis.

[/quote]

CnD chaining has never been perma stealth in the traditional sense. Against an average to above average opponent you shouldn’t be able to land this more than once, and against a skilled opponent, landing the first CnD is difficult in the first place, much less chaining it. Furthermore, CnD is a 1.0 multiplier which is hardly high damage if done every 4 seconds when attempting to chain CnD. My examples are not out of context anymore than your changes were. None of them required any traits, and many of them were common (meta) weapon choices. I realize that CC (and immobilize which I didn’t list) is powerful, but you are nerfing the thief far under par with your suggestions even compared to some ranger skill which is largely considered UP (which is why I listed it first). If you really want to address (nerf) those skills individualy, I have to say your ideas are moving the game toward a slow moving mediocrity. As much as fighting some build such as hambow warriors and dhuumfire necros can be aggravating, the fast paced combat combined with active defenses is fun for a lot of players. Right now this game walks a nice line between FPS (feeling) and MMO which is really what makes it fun to play. Slowing it down overall will just make the people who were originally attracted to the playstyle just leave.

Hey! You wrote Thieves instead of Thiefs!

Seriously though, I know you were trying to keep traits at 14 points each, but you can’t put points into toughness and vitality lines! That cuts into the DEEPS!

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

So um… backstab has a level 1 eviscerate damage and malicious strike has a level 2 eviscerate. Why would you use dagger over S/P anymore?

I suppose that is a point to make. However, using a [Malicious Strike] against a foe that isn’t already staggered would cost 7 initiative and it also doesn’t mean that the foe might not dodge or mitigate the [Malicious Strike].

[Backstab] costs no initiative and is infinitely less telegraphed than [Malicious Strike].

Maugetarr.6823:

Does CnD still grant stealth? What’s the point in covering up CnD with a weak push on a 40 second CD?

To prevent perma-stealth and to also allow the Thief to provide a set-up for either his/her own attacks or possibly also a teammate’s attack. It’s also simply just movement manipulation if used against a non-staggered foe.

Moreover, [Push] can be tied to a weapon-set that includes something like [Backstab] because it deals no damage giving d/d a very powerful attack option in mid-fight or even as an opener.

Is chaining CnD really considered perma-stealth now?

Furthermore 40 seconds CD for a powerful attack? I think you need to rethink what you consider powerful in this game for that length CD:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Banish
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_of_Absorption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bane_Signet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Command_
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthshaker
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Staggering_Blow
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backbreaker
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rifle_Butt
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_Bash
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Inversion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shield
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol%27_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personal_Battering_Ram
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thump
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Field_
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Updraft
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthquake
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diversion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaos_Storm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counter_Blade
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Bullet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Into_the_Void
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Domination
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Wall
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_

Before you continue with these threads, I would suggest you look at how the balance currently is and take inventory of some more skills and coefficients, and how even though they look good on paper end up being lackluster to bad in practice. The changes you’ve proposed for the thief severely cut into the damage and evasion of the thief offering little in return in ways of new mechanics, sustain, or even control.

Two more ideas for thief to give back some of the utility of S/D and S/P thieves and hopefully reduce some of the FS/LS spam.

1) Revert LS to steal 2 boons, but reduce the damage to a (.65) or (.5) multiplier. In this manner, thieves would have to use the AA chain to deal damage and using the FS/LS chain would interrupt the chain which would not let the thief reach full damage. This would cause the thief to have to use regular dodges to not reset the chain as well. Hopefully this would cut down on the #3 spam.

2) Revert infiltrators return to instant cast, but reduce the return range to 600 and leave the rollover only available for 7-10 seconds. This would allow for some of the previous juking that could be done with the thief, bringing it in line with illusionary leap/swap but without giving it the stunbreak and leap finisher.

Swagg.9236:

style.6173:

@OP: You have to think about these things in terms of what would be the role of a thief after these changes.

So, what role would a thief play in tPvP after you take away the burst potential?

When it comes to raw damage, Thief’s role would be of a more consistent combatant like an Engineer or Ranger instead of someone that just engages instantly from range for huge damage and then either dies or breaks off to try it again.

With the addition of the staggered condition, the Thief would gain a supportive role in combat. By timing a staggering skill, the Thief could give allies or him/herself openings to deliver attacks in combat or even saved downed allies from stomps.

And it’s not like I’ve removed burst potential. [Malicious Strike] is r2 Eviscerate without a cool-down (even though it is bound by initiative consumption). [Heartseeker] damage at x<25% hp went untouched. [Headshot] -> [Unload] -> [Desperado] -> [Crack Shot Frenzy] -> [Ambush] -> [Unload] is also a lot of potential damage. I’m looking at addressing pistol/dagger. Furthermore, I’ve read complaints about a 10-second recharge on stealth skills. I’m probably going to reduce to that to 5-second recharge. That gives the Thief the option to use a stealth skill pretty much every time that he/she goes into stealth, but it still punishes the Thief for missing that skill while in stealth. It adds a greater skill cap to stealth skills and provides the opponent with counterplay. If a player can dodge a [Backstab], the thief shouldn’t just be able to keep spamming [Backstab] until it hits; that completly undermines the purpose of dodging it. It makes dodging, positioning and timing completely moot.

So um… backstab has a level 1 eviscerate damage and malicious strike has a level 2 eviscerate. Why would you use dagger over S/P anymore? Does CnD still grant stealth? What’s the point in covering up CnD with a weak push on a 40 second CD?

Dual.8953:

BlackBeard.2873:

Phantaram.1265:

I think most people are missing the point of this thread.

Yes the meta is super tanky and within it thieves are just average. Take away the super tanky meta and it will be about thieves. Mesmer and ele, the other mobile power squishy roamers, won’t see the light of day because thieves are so far ahead of them and actually counter the mesmer and ele themselves.

There are layers of broken things in this game. The first one that needs peeled back is the tanky meta, after that there are other things that need peeled back. Thief is one of them.

Very well put, Phantaram. The damage/survivability ratio for a lot of classes need to be changed for a lot of classes, and thief is one of them. It is disgusting watching Sizer spam out evades chained together like the class is supposed to get complete immunity that lasts that long while building Zerker. The problem is that all thief defense is based on damage avoidance, so there is NO REASON to build anything but full-dps. Yes, a lot does need to be fixed about the thief class in terms of better survivability, but their highest-dps build simply has too much mobility/survivability for the damage it does.

If you dull the burst to the point that other glass cannon’s can survive it, you haven’t solved the main problem. You’ve just given Mesmer Thief’s position and possibly knocked Thieves down below Elementalist. The one of the reasons Thief players have developed in a way that they give up practically all their survivablity for damage isn’t just because they can. It’s also because they have to, if they want any hope of taking on a serious bunker. They’re low end damage is quite low, and as with their high end defenses. I can say, if you want to learn about the value of active defense in this game, role a Thief. Anyways back on topic: if they nerf Thief’s damage, they have the tone down bunkers substantially at the same time.

Which is why they should have halved (or more) the damage of LS and left the 2 boon steal, so you could strip boons or do damage, but if you just used LS over and over, you probably couldn’t have taken down anyone. It should have been made a utility skill since they were talking about how it was too effective. Now guard boon bunkers can sit relatively unphased by putting up retal and covering the important boons; we’re back in the same boat we were when they started talking about boon hate (+ higher initiative cost). Thieves would have had to complete the AA chain to CS for the decent (emphasis on decent/balanced ) damage or the utility of dodging/stealing boons. They went in the wrong direction.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I’m not sure how thieves drive the mesmers from the meta, but it’s very easy to see how they drive elementalists out of it.

Boon stealing.

Seriously, thieves can not only outpace elementalists in damage, but they can also strip most of their defenses AND get them for themselves. So thieves are evading, teleporting or stealthing like crazy while being bathed by countless boons.

The current thief’s setup makes them pretty much the anti-elementalist class. While Guardians also rely a lot on boons, they still have plenty of blocks and other active defenses, but eles have little to compensate for boon removal.

It wouldn’t be that bad of a problem if it came at a higher cost. Mesmers can also strip a lot of boons, but it’s easier to counterplay shatters as an elementalist.

Thieves’ boon stealing, however, should come at a higher cost. Be it an initiative cost, or less damage, or less survival elsewhere. Or, even, made much easier to counterplay it. Which wouldn’t be a big problem, either, if those strong attacks weren’t already covered by near-impossible-to-counterplay mechanics like evasion, stealth and really low casting times.

Thieves have 2 sources of boon stealing. The first one is Bountiful Theft. This steals 2 boons, but you do not get the remaining duration or the full stacks of the boon you steal. This is at a minimum of about 21 seconds as well since it’s tied to steal.

The second is larcenous strike. This originally was part of flanking strike which cost 4 initiative, but was eventually split into 2 skills and buffed due to pathing issues and the domination of boon bunkers in the meta. At first it still cost 4 initiative (for the total skill use) and stole 2 boons (rather than just destroying one as it previously had). This has been nerfed twice in that the cost has been increased to 5 initiative and the steal reduced to 1 boon. Aside from fixing the pathing issue (which was still workable before), the entire skill has been nerfed to a less effective state for dealing with boon heavy classes than the release of the game. It also has a marker on the boon/condition bar indicating it is about to be used telegraphing that it should be dodged.

It’s not in fact thieves that have pushed out eles, but rather the nerfs to eles as they were still pretty viable even when thieves’ boon ripping ability was arguably more effective. As for easier to counterplay, I don’t see how it could be made more obvious than the current iteration unless the cast time was increased to sluggish speed.

As for counterplaying shatters, yes that might be easier, but you still have to worry about the boon stripping ability of sword mainhand from both the mesmer and his clones’ autoattack chain. They could also put out much more anti-boon pressure than a thief could.

What: Thieves should be revealed when flailing a stealth attack.
Why: Stealth is currently all reward with no risk. It’s easy to land a backstab. Other professions need to be rewarded for thoer superior counterplaying skills.

Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/ALL-Revealed-on-Block-Miss/first

What: Just…. thieves….. 15%-25% damage nerf amongst many other things
Why: They prevent other direct damage professions from flourishing

Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Thieves-driving-away-damage-dealers/first#post3589021

What: Consume Plasma
Why: Thieves are not designed to get boons. Getting boons makes them OP.

Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Consume-Plasma-Overpowered/first#post3588687

Great gameplay and tips. Im still learning shatter mes and lose my cool when I get pressured too hard.

Also, thanks for the thief fighting tips. People tend to not listen to thief mains when we give advice on how to counter us.

Keep it up.

An idea to change Dancing Dagger for thieves to try to bring D/D up to some of the other specs:

*Remove the bounce altogether
*Increase the projectile speed
*Keep the damage the same
*On hit they get a black border debuff similar to warrior impale
*On hit, you get a 10 second rollover skill called augury of death
*On activation of said rollover skill you shadowstep to and cripple your target for 3 seconds

Impale: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impale_
Original Augury of Death: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Augury_of_Death

Well, you could still block/blind/dodge the #4 projectile. The point of a 10 second rollover though is to maybe hit them while you’re right next to them, then shadowstep to them when they start to open a gap. I don’t think this would make P/D OP as that would require a fair amount of initiative to keep it up for meh amounts of torment. Once people learned how to play against it, it would probably have the same amount of counterplay as CnD.

If anything, D/D #3 should transfer a condition. It really needs some sort of rework. By giving the transfer to the dual skill, you specifically help D/D whereas giving P/D a transfer when they’re running in tanky gear probably would be OP.

Thanks for the feedback on this.

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Edit: As for viable? sort of? Power based thieves are highly dependent on high crit damage and usually hidden killer with dagger or executioner. With this set up you can use neither.

I’m not really sure what you meant by the edit, Executioner is preferred in all cases to Hidden Killer and sword is perfectly viable sans dagger main. Perhaps you’re speaking about low or entry-level play.

I was addressing the fact that your build does not use 30 in CS. In fact 5 points are left out, so maybe you linked the incorrect build? I tend to play D/D in every game mode so HK was worth mentioning (i.e: not sans dagger).

I also added the “Edit:” because I finished then had another thought and it’s polite to use it if you’re changing/adding something unless it’s just a misspelled word or 2.

You could put 10 more in to get Executioner, between Fluid Strikes and Lead Attacks I doubt there’d be much difference. I like splitting it between the two because the minors are more consistent if you can make them work (which you can with sword specs).

In tournaments people generally won’t take Blinding Powder (selfish utility) or Sin Signet, especially on S/P where more initiative and more teleports are always useful. Side Strike is not ideal since S/P is not S/D or dagger.

My overall point is that the developers’ approach to this is both short-sighted and incoherent. You can take Mesmer Vigor one of two ways: either it’s the fact that it’s too easy to access, or it’s that the Vigor itself is too strong.

If it’s the former, the solution is to move Mesmer Vigor to a higher minor trait. The latter is nonsensical, though, because, as I’ve demonstrated, high Vigor uptime is very common across all kinds of competitive specs. To single out the Mesmer and the Guardian is batting at low-hanging fruit in lieu of a far more holistic and comprehensive approach that’d achieve what the game truly needs.

They actually are being consistent though finally. They nerfed thief and engi vigor last patch and now they’re moving on to mesmer and guard. All the nerfs actually bother me though, but at least they’re being consistent about them after last patch. Tbh imo, this balance patch is just going to push more condis…. I actually doubt the nerf to healsig on war will do much either. It’s not healsig (alone), its healsig, adrenal health, and regen all combined. Sorry that’s off topic, but I too am displeased with the last 2 patches, the preview, and the general direction toward lower damage. I would rather they revert some of the previous nerfs than implement new ones.

(P.S: I take blinding powder because it can be used to save people from stomping as well. If I can’t get them up in that 4 second duration, they or I am probably dead anyway. You can also BPS and blinding powder for a 7 second stealth on top of your ally and the CD is shorter. It can also keep you alive in tight spots)

havoc.6814:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Oh, You so did just argue in favor of the warrior! Finally, some love! Fanfare! Adoring minions!!!

On topic: Nerf Mesmer! …but maybe also give them something more to do in a zerg.

I would suggest actually giving them an additional weapon (main hand pistol?) and loading it up with zerg vs zerg goodness. Maybe an auto-attack that bounces around the enemy zerg at random and creates a clone at the final hit. A second skill that does an AoE hit in a conical projection with a cripple and a confusion stack or two (think shotgun). A third skill that does something phantastic… O_o

I didn’t. The sentence was worded oddly… my fault. I was arguing a thief point, but you had to follow his link to find that out.

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Edit: As for viable? sort of? Power based thieves are highly dependent on high crit damage and usually hidden killer with dagger or executioner. With this set up you can use neither.

I’m not really sure what you meant by the edit, Executioner is preferred in all cases to Hidden Killer and sword is perfectly viable sans dagger main. Perhaps you’re speaking about low or entry-level play.

I was addressing the fact that your build does not use 30 in CS. In fact 5 points are left out, so maybe you linked the incorrect build? I tend to play D/D in every game mode so HK was worth mentioning (i.e: not sans dagger).

I also added the “Edit:” because I finished then had another thought and it’s polite to use it if you’re changing/adding something unless it’s just a misspelled word or 2.

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

My impression at this point in the game is that the developers are somewhat naive and don’t really play that much; at the very least, they’re unaware of just what is capable with the current mechanics. They know vaguely what it is they want to do, but they don’t seem to know how to properly do it.

Hurting Mesmer Vigor when it’s possible for a Warrior with an adept trait and Lyssa runes to keep close to permanent uptime or an Acro Thief to have total permanent uptime just intimates that the devs are out of touch. Even more so when you consider that a Mesmer needs to crit and the latter two can keep Vigor up at range or even out of combat entirely.

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last patch. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

The same is happening to guards because of their access to defensive boons.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmaPHdS5E/5ExmCfKUPFkds9M4qVB-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFN+Y9xsAA

And?

That is a perfectly viable setup which will give you permanent (as in constant uptime) Vigor as well as the benefits of Feline Grace, so long as you’re on a target. You could also play full Trickery and simply trait for Acro III instead of Mug, to more or less the same ends. That is a mere five points more than the Dueling minor.

Similarly for ten points into Discipline Warriors can have very high Vigor uptime, independent of precision. With a warhorn on swap it’s more or less permanent, and doesn’t require one to be in active combat.

Mesmer does not have access to the evades of any Thief spec. Shatter has little to no Regen (or any sustain whatsoever for that matter), and since the change to staff #4 there is no reliable form of Protection. Thief also isn’t dependent on the endurance bar the way Mesmer is, due to Dueling X. Shatter’s defense comes exclusively from positioning and skill use. I personally know players who will sit at certain vantage points in Foefire etc. because not getting hit at all and minimizing the amount of incoming damage between 20s intervals is the first line of defense for shatter.

It’s duplicitous to cross-compare two classes when it suits you and then claim that they’re different when it doesn’t. In this case I feel it is fair to compare other options, since I feel shatter is somewhat low on the list of current offenders when it comes to game balance.

For the record though, I do believe that five points for Vigor on crit is rather generous, but the problem is with Vigor, not with the Mesmer or the Guardian. And it is unrealistic and completely out-of-touch to hurt Vigor alone when total damage in the game has reached the levels that it has.

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Edit: As for viable? sort of? Power based thieves are highly dependent on high crit damage and usually hidden killer with dagger or executioner. With this set up you can use neither.

This is much closer to an effective build, but you’re still investing 40 points into trait lines to achieve high vigor uptime:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmiOHfy4E/5Ey2jdqC5JvHk1YZWdF4KA-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFN+Y9xsAA

Dammerung.6419:

Maugetarr.6823:

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last path. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

Feline grace is automatic, we have to crit for our vigor. On top of that, you can also get vigor from other sources.

Mesmers only have reliable access to regen, protection, and aegis if they take the master trait, PU. In the tpvp setting, people (generally) run shatter. That is a minimum of 20 in dueling and 30 in illusions, making PU inaccessible. All other boons are generated randomly and are unreliable.

If the issue is it only requires 5 minor points, I was then hoping they would move it into the 15 point spot and leave it’s current functionality.

With vigor nerf and 10% crit damage nerf, I am concerned that my GC shatter mesmer, which isn’t the best choice for wvw roaming atm, will become even less viable than it currently is. PU is king for mesmers at the moment, and with these upcoming changes, I am worried I will be forced into PU as the only viable/reliable roaming build.

When I play mesmer, it is also a shatter build (20/20/0/0/30). That is certainly a possibility that it could decrease shatter builds’ effectiveness. Moving it up may put it in a better place, but you’d probably still go there for DE. They may also be pushing vigorous revelation which be similar to how thieves trait into a defensive line to gain feline grace. Maybe it’ll push things like 0/20/0/20/30 shatter builds which would be similar to a thief trating 0/20/30/20/0: less DPS but more defense.

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

My impression at this point in the game is that the developers are somewhat naive and don’t really play that much; at the very least, they’re unaware of just what is capable with the current mechanics. They know vaguely what it is they want to do, but they don’t seem to know how to properly do it.

Hurting Mesmer Vigor when it’s possible for a Warrior with an adept trait and Lyssa runes to keep close to permanent uptime or an Acro Thief to have total permanent uptime just intimates that the devs are out of touch. Even more so when you consider that a Mesmer needs to crit and the latter two can keep Vigor up at range or even out of combat entirely.

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last patch. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

The same is happening to guards because of their access to defensive boons.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmaPHdS5E/5ExmCfKUPFkds9M4qVB-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFN+Y9xsAA

And?

Star.8401:

These changes to Dhuumfire are going to hit a couple builds very hard. I disagree with the changes because I don’t see how this change would make sense, and how this change brings balance. Other areas could use some help like minion master and the vampiric build, but converting the current Dhuumfire trait into this new one does not make sense to me. The build most complained about with the necro is the fear, condi bomb build. But just like any other classes most “annoying” build it has its ups and downs. Necromancer is already an underplayed profession, and I don’t think this change to Dhuumfire will take the profession anywhere progressive.

What if the proposed dhuumfire were shorter with no ICD so it gave condimancers a good auto attack in deathshroud instead since deathshroud is a largely power based mechanic.

DejaVu.9825:

Monoman:

And the move more criticized that makes the thief permanently invisible. At least, is to improve the animation ? And difficult to understand when the thieves use if there are many players.

What do you think?

CnD is decently telegraphed with a bright blue glow of the offhand dagger while the thief raises it into the air. It is D/P which probably needs more counterplay added. There has been a thread on how to accomplish this which I linked higher up on this page.

shimmerless.4560:

My impression at this point in the game is that the developers are somewhat naive and don’t really play that much; at the very least, they’re unaware of just what is capable with the current mechanics. They know vaguely what it is they want to do, but they don’t seem to know how to properly do it.

Hurting Mesmer Vigor when it’s possible for a Warrior with an adept trait and Lyssa runes to keep close to permanent uptime or an Acro Thief to have total permanent uptime just intimates that the devs are out of touch. Even more so when you consider that a Mesmer needs to crit and the latter two can keep Vigor up at range or even out of combat entirely.

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last patch. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

The same is happening to guards because of their access to defensive boons.

Well I’m just going to suggest the same thing I did a couple of months ago:

*Remove the bounce altogether

*Increase the projectile speed

*Keep the damage the same

*On hit they get a black border debuff similar to warrior impale

*On hit, you get a 10 second rollover skill called augury of death

*On activation of said rollover skill you shadowstep to and cripple your target for 3 seconds

Impale: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impale_

Original Augury of Death: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Augury_of_Death

magic fly.2041:

Mordecai.6318:

‘Cheese’ is a term used most commonly by scrubs

TL;DR
Shut up.

and with those two statements, you have shown yourself incapable of thoughtful, reasonable argument or conversation regarding this subject. I didn’t even need to bother reading the rest.

You should have read the rest because it was an explanation as to how even weak and stealthless builds have been called cheese.

Here is an idea for a change to thief black powder that was first suggested in the thief forum then copied to the balance forum. The general idea is as follows:

Geiir.7603
I got a discussion going in the thief forum about stealth, you can read more about it here. During the discussions someone threw out an idea for Black Powder (pistol off-hand 5). He proposed to change the combo field to Dark instead of Smoke and let the projectile it fires grant stealth if it connects (in the same fashion as Ranger Longbow 3).
Changes to Black Powder;
Projectile grant stealth if it connects
Change combo field to Dark
Add a small cast time after the field drops and until the shot is fired. The same as Cloak and Dagger.
Why do I think this is a good idea?
It would fix the problem with D/P stealth stacking
It would provide stealth too P/P and S/P. Dual pistol really need help, and this would help a lot.
It add real counter play to the D/P stealth combo. You could just evade, block, blind, etc the projectile to negate the thief stealth. This is also in the same fashion as Cloak and Dagger.
The cast time would really help with the counter play as people will have a chance to evade or block it.
This change would help people counter the D/P weapon set and it would help the other two sets that use pistol off-hand a lot! This change was originally proposed by Maugetarr.

Here is the link to the balance thread forum if the idea is of interest so you can see the full points and counterpoints of this proposed change:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Thief-Black-Powder/first

RedSpectrum.1975:

Dee Jay.2460:

AskTheDust.7384:

how do you jump with HS for not a full range but only in an area of a circle from BP?

You angle the camera upwards and so only leap a fairly short distance. It works reliably but is fairly inconvenient to do it combat.

What I find funny is that I don’t stealth nearly as much with my D/P weapon-set as I did with my D/D build.

Well considering stealthing with DP costs 9 ini while DD takes 6 ini, without two on stealth, I can easily see why. Assuming you used trickery, that 15ini pool would leave you with 6 ini left going on 7 after one stealth so it’s not hard to see why you’re stealthing less with DP, however, it offers more blinds than DD can offer.

A common argument is that DP takes more skill to use than DD. Now it’s no right or wrong answer to this, but I personally believe that’s not true. However I am also not saying DD is more skillful. To explain, you have all skills useful for DP, so one could say “Oh we need to manage initiative.” Yeah, okay, but not really. It’s not like you’ll need all of those buttons all of the time. In the brunt of a fight with a melee warrior, I’ll barely use shadowshot since he’s going to be on top of me all of the time. In fact, why bother constantly stealthing, Black powder will mitigate the fool if he’s dumb enough. And as you’ve said, headshot if only really used when they are healing and one isn’t healing every second of the fight…actively anyway…so that’s another 4 initiative I don’t have to worry about constantly. So DP initiative management is only really a concern if youre constantly focused on getting a stealth out, but DP gives you the tools to not have to worry about that so much. DD on the other hand has so little to work with, calling it cheese gets me angry. DD stealth can be prevented in more ways DP stealth can be. Wanna know how to stop a DP thief from stealthing? Interrupt. Wanna know how to stop a DD thief from stealthing? Interrupt, blind, blocks, evades, keeping your distance. Imho you cannot justify DP being harder than DD. At first, yes it’s a hassle to learn all of your skills, but when you become a natural with DP, ini management comes as second nature to you as holding your breath while swimming, AND you have more skills to work with, double win!

Yeah, this bothers me too, especially when D/D gets called unskilled spam. It boils down to getting to choose which skills are useful/worth the ini cost, and #3/#4 are usually not worth the investment in initiative. I don’t want D/P to be nerfed, but it would be nice if the other skills in the set were brought up to the level of D/P. Maybe a condi transfer on one of those skills? Someone mentioned that #3 is also a .25 sec evadeX3, not just a .25 sec evade. If that’s true, the precast/aftercast and semi root just needs to be fixed for it to be a useful skill.

DeWolfe.2174:

Ok…. at 2600 armor, I was just hit for 5.7k & 6.5k cluster bomb while defending a keep from the wall. Those numbers are ridiculous, absurd, and so have to get nerfed. The 10% crit reduction coming isn’t enough.

2600 armor is mid range at best. I suggest you either spec more, or reduce it and put in more offense so you become more of a threat and can push people off while using active mitigation.

Svarty.8019:

Whatever Arenanet’s “vision” for the Thief was, it desperately needs re-envisioning.

THis is unfun.

As a thief main, fighting thieves on my alts is probably the most fun I have. Most recently I fought a (most likely) 0/30/30/10/0 D/D thief on my glass mesmer (20/20/0/0/30 shatter). Dodged the CnD twice, messed up and knocked him off a hill where I couldn’t hit him (…), turned it around and blew him up with a well timed shatter. I’m not great on my mesmer, but if you know how to play thieves you know how to beat them. I don’t beat them all, but I have a lot of fun trying.

Kadin.2356:

Mrbig.8019:

Sensotix.4106:

the 2 vs 1 from teldo at waterfall…i spoke to ben (lord nag nag nag) and he said both didnt want to waste their cooldowns since they thought it would be an easy matchup

well i thought i had to bring it up because i saw a s/d thief winning a 1 vs 1 vs warri..vs spirit ranger…vs necro..vs the other thief without loosing even 50% of his hp

BUT

Resume: I was really happy to have this discussion here and I am glad that I did post this thread here and not in the structured pvp section because there I wouldnt have gotten many impressions from thieves.
I am happy that most of you tried to stay obejctive and tell me exactly how they feel about it and actually came up with some interesting ideas that I really appreciate

And I also have to admit that I have tried to be a little bit provocative so I can see who of you guys really stays objective and calm because I was searching for an experienced thief to interview about changes he wants to see in the game/his class

Thanks for everything guys it was a pleasure to discuss with u!

Thief interview will hopefully follow soon

just wanted to ump in and remember you a thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3o2fB_ADjc

And mind, it was pre inf strike nerf.

S/D thief will NEVER win against a good necro.

Yesterday i had a fight with Sizer in a 1vs1 server and won as a POWER NEC on a tPvP build ( not even a 1vs1 build).

Ask him, he will confirm ( Capanelle here).

S/D is cheese and i would say super forgiving as a set, but it’s not really THAT impactful and can lose against a good tons of builds ( S/P thief, S/F ele, any necro, well played hambow, engies) OR take too much time in killing it.

Fightning a war is almost always too time consuming, for example.

The strenght of an S/D thief is the capability to overextend while still being able to disangage at will, while facetanking even 3 enemies ( number doesn’t really matter).

Surely not it’s 1vs1 capabilities.

It’s the fact that its GOOD ( not almighty, as you want to make it seem) 1vs1 capabilities ARE ADDED to the best mobility and best disangage capabilities.

personally i left S/D and now play S/P, and i find it way superior in coordinated teams ( altough i do solo q only lol), tough more easily countered and tough needing a lot more skill to be played.

Why are you necroing a thread from 4 months and 2+ patches ago? None of these arguments are even valid anymore.

Because, as zero day linked, people still think it’s an untouchable set: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Pvp-Thief-S-D-thief-is-still-too-strong/page/2#post3577875

This thread is from this past week.

Sceinna.3561:

Dee Jay.2460:

I’ve never met a Thief who spams Headshot exclusively. Even myself I only use it to interrupt heals and revives. I mean it costs 4 Initiative and deals no damage. It hinder the enemy as long as it hinders me. If a D/P Thief uses it twice it already means he can’t use Black Powder for the next few seconds making him a vulnerable target.

D/P Thieves themselves also tend to be fairly glassly unlike P/D Thieves who run around in full Dire gear with Acrobatics talents for extensive dodges.

P/D is by far the most forgiving spec for Thieves and the easiest to play “well enough”. You have endless dodges, full Dire gear with max. Toughness and Vitality and enough Initiative to cover any Cloak and Dagger you might miss.

I mean with 15 Initiative and only Cloak and Dagger to blow it on you have to try really hard to waste it all.

I agree P/D is very forgiving, which is why I play D/D atm, because I feel P/D is becoming too meta. @Daze spam, again, it happens to me everyday during 1vX, some D/P thief cannot kill you so he decides to Daze spam you allowing the rest to kill you with ease, it’s like an instant gameover button. It happens to me every single day, I’ll make sure to record it next time.

Dee Jay.2460:

Yeah there are ways to penetrate the Blinds but they aren’t readily available or themselves have counters which makes them hard to use against a skill that can be used constantly.

Take a Warrior with melee weapons for example. Sure, he can use Berserker Stance but then I just kite away and chill in Stealth for a while, waiting for it to expire. After that, there’s really not much he can do. Hundred Blades will still deal some damage as will Blade-Trail but they’d have to be full Berserker to put out enough pressure.

When I fight another class I often feel I beat them because of the Black Powder mechanic more than anything else.

^This, entirely. Black Powder is the only reason I hate D/P, the blinds on it are just stupid. I couldn’t care less if D/P grabs stealth out of thin air, I can counter that. The perma blind is what screws me up. You used to be able to clear blind by just spamming #1 and you didn’t need a target, but that got nerfed a long time ago. :/

Only the initial shot should blind you if you don’t dodge it. You can hit thieves from outside the BPS field. … perma-blind is a choice to stand in the BPS.