Guild Wars 2

Have you tried a torch as a defensive countermeasure? The stealth on that can give you the time to re-position and burst as well as blind 1 heartseeker that might be channeling as you enter stealth. F3 is also your friend, even against auto-attacks.

Bamf Joe is a great mesmer to watch in terms of play. In this video, he’s using your weaponset.

Good luck!

Disregarding the infighting between our S/D and D/P brethren, this change to me seems rather neutral overall. I look at it this way: before you had to spend 5 initiative on the FS/LS combo or wait for it to roll back over. Mow you can chain FS together until you hit. This basically allows you to sustain longer until you make a successful hit. Numerically speaking, you get 5 FS now for the price of the old 4 which is a 25% increase in the evasion uptime assuming they are skilled enough to dodge/block all of your FS in which case you would probably need the extra evade frame uptime. I think we might see more complaints after this change rather than less. Let’s wait to see how this shakes out before we throw in the towel on the weapon set

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

It would also make D/P unable to burst and thus kill the spec in sPvP, so no it will not happen.

How would it be unable to burst?

Because the burst is already not that high anymore? Going with ur suggestion would get rid of the HS damage part aswell thus make it even lower ? To the point where probably S/D can burst almost similiar numbers thus make it useless ?

You don’t have to only use heartseeker through BPS. . . You can use it any time you want.

Do you know how a trickery D/P thief bursts?

5 -> 2 -> f1 (while channeling 2) -> 1

With ur suggestion burst would be something like

5 -> f1 (while channeling 5) -> 1

So why can’t you just hit 2 after the backstab? I’m confused as to how requiring one fewer step prevents you from doing the same burst…

as in:

5 (now has lifesteal too) -> f1 (while channeling 5) -> 1 -> 2

it’s not lowering the burst, its changing the order.

Edit: I’d also like to point out that putting the HS at the end gives it a 2.0 multiplier rather than the 1.0 you receive from putting it on the beginning of the burst allowing more damage for the initiative spent.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

It would also make D/P unable to burst and thus kill the spec in sPvP, so no it will not happen.

How would it be unable to burst?

Because the burst is already not that high anymore? Going with ur suggestion would get rid of the HS damage part aswell thus make it even lower ? To the point where probably S/D can burst almost similiar numbers thus make it useless ?

You don’t have to only use heartseeker through BPS. . . You can use it any time you want.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Maugetarr.6823:

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

It would also make D/P unable to burst and thus kill the spec in sPvP, so no it will not happen.

How would it be unable to burst?

Geiir is not talking about having a leap finisher on #5, he is saying to turn the field into a dark field so that the projectile no longer blinds, but rather is a life steal combo finisher, and then if the projectile successfully connects you go into stealth, similar to a ranger LB#3 (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). This would allow for dodges, reflects, and blocks to counter the stealth a D/P thief has, rather than just interrupting being a counter to the 5-2 combo. It would also ensure that thieves would have to blow a utility to run away because they couldn’t fire a BPS and leap through it to gain stealth without a target. In summary it would be slightly easier and less initiative intensive to get into stealth, but there are more counterplay options available to the opponents and #5 doesn’t overlap with #3 so much in terms of utility.

Mayama.1854:

TheRyftLord.5820:

Also consider that PvP isn’t the most important aspect of this game. Alot of people play primarily for the open world content, and some never even touch PvP or WvW. How fair would this be to the PvE thief players that enjoy using stealth for beating the life outta things in dungeons or the open world content ? They’d suddenly find themselves punished for using the stealth mechanic in the way that Warriors use their adrenaline, or Guardian uses their virtues, as they were intended within the game mechanics.

We’ve all had our gripes about other classes being OP, what makes these arguments any different from people calling Warrior OP? Because you can see him coming?

Stealth is not a thief class mechanic, initative and dual wield skills are.

Stealth attacks however are a class mechanic as no other class gets a rollover while in stealth. While Stealth itself isn’t a class mechanic, other class mechanics and traits are woven into it.

Can we wait and see how the upcoming balance changes are going to affect this weapon set? I mean it has already been announced that utility goggles on engi (which currently makes them immune to blind and breaks stun) is going to get 6s of reveal on analyze. Let’s see what shakes out before we start proposing nerfs to an average/good single-target set.

ShakeyStorm.7180:

No compensation needed. Just L2P Thief.

No changes needed to balance stealth. L2P against it.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD9Tvfk1pjk

Skip to 1:02:00

Poplolita.2638:

Emi.4152:

Poplolita.2638:

Not counters.

not hard counters but counter plays… counter plays that work exceptionally well against various stealth builds. adding into the game hard counters for stealth seems a little overkill to me.

I could sit here and describe the ways i’ve personally been countered by players on all the different classes, how they played, what they did, what to look out for, etc. or how i handle stealth builds on my other classes… but i’m not going to. judging by the previous posts…. that seems like a waste of time.

Instead, let me ask all the people here that seem to think stealth is OP. What exactly are you looking for when fighting a stealth based player ideally. A head to head fight with someone that has lower HP, little armor, lower damage co-efficients on attacks, and can use much less quantity of skills on average? Or just something in the middle to make it “fair” for you while at the same time allowing players that already know how to counterplay stealth builds to completely faceroll them instead?

I would like to point out I have no problem against thieves, and that I rarely lose against them whenever I face them 1v1 in tpvp, they don’t even use stealth that much (talking about s/d thief). Also, getting outplayed has nothing to do with counters. I’m talking about counter from a mechanical perspective.

Why would you call for a weakening of a class that you already rarely lose to? There are soft counters to thieves’ stealth already: interrupting/dodging weapon stealth, knocking out of SR. In fact the only 2 that can’t be soft countered (except maybe for a lucky sic ’em) are blinding powder and traited steal. If someone misses these, all they have to do is wait 3 or 4 seconds (except against SR) and they can once again target the thief.

One argument that I see a lot is that blocking a stealth attack should reveal the thief because it required skill to do, yet these same people could have blocked/interrupted the thief, denying them stealth in the first place. I don’t see why the player should be rewarded with a second chance after failing the counterplay the first time, just wait out the time instead.

Kirby.9138:

Stealths not OP but a blast on light field should probably reveal.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Symbol_of_Protection (Guard hammer auto attack, light field)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mighty_Blow (Guard Hammer #2, Blast Finisher, CD 5 sec)

Permanent Revealed…..

Iirc they increased the down state health a while back to encourage the play-counterplay options that shockwave mentioned. Before that, downstate was way more biased towards getting stomped.

GinghamLion.3614:

Then I would feel even worse when I backstab the wrong Mesmer.

Hahahahaha

Thief: surprise mothe….
Mesmer: Nope! Surprise phantasm to the face!

Initiative doesn’t need a rework. It was actually changed recently to boost the base regen of it so traits didn’t have to be taken for it (min regen increased, max regen capped). All of the abilities of thieves are balanced around multiple uses. Take headshot for an example: you could used the entire initiative pool using only that skill, and get a total of 1 second of daze out of it. To do that, the thief can’t use any other weapon skills. Compare that to mesmer’s magic bullet that has a 25 second cooldown which stuns one and dazes another target for 2 seconds. The thief lacks any single skill that’s as mechanically powerful, but has the ability to use it multiple times to make up for it.

Compare heartseeker to phoenix as well. Phoenix has a 1.7 multiplier on the explosion and also has a .75 multplier on the projectile, is ranged, and can hit multiple targets, while heartseeker has a 2.0 multiplier (in the 25%-0% range), and is single target with a gap closer. Those 2 are essentially equivalent because heartseeker will be used multiple times over a longer timeframe for essentially the same results while phoenix has 1 chance to hit all the targets in a single move and has a CD to reflect that ability.

Thieves are built to be used in a series of 1v1 fights, even when they’re fighting a group, and their defensive capabilities and global cooldowns are balanced around that. Other classes are designed to fight the entire group at once and are balanced appropriately for that.

Tldr: thief weapon skills are already balanced around multiple uses.

Zach.3264:

Maugetarr.6823:

Zach.3264:

dylan.5409:

The denial is strong in this thread lol
Its a strong ability, too strong imo for an auto target with so many extras (leap finisher, high damage under 25%, gap closer)
Thieves have enough on demand burst, they can be stressful to fight against, they dont need extra burst

I wonder how long it takes for someone to reply now with “if you die to HS you’re bad, I never die to HS because I’m amazing!”

Or something along those lines.

How about something to the effect of HS does less DPS than autoattack above 50% health, about equivalent between 50% and 25% and superior damage only below 25%. This means that if someone is dying to HS at above 25%, they would be dying even faster against just autoattack. Meanwhile, the thieves spamming HS at the higher levels of health could be saving their initiative for more effective uses.

HS should not be changed because above 25% it fills the role of utility with a leap finisher and gap closer. Below that it fills the role of a player finisher. Spamming it outside of these 2 cases us a waste of initiative, but it’s not the role of the game to spoonfeed you that fact, just like it doesn’t stop eles from using blast finishers if they didn’t put down a field to finish. Nerfing this skill just to show newer players how/when to use this skill just nerfs the utility side of it for potentially speeding up someone’s learning curve is a bad idea.

You should be allowed to use it as a leap and a gap closer. I don’t think you should be able to spam it though.
Making it cost slightly more may also put an end to the “perma stealth thieves are op”

Being able to spam it is in line with how the designers want the thief to be able to stick to an opponent. This is easily counterable with cripple, chill, immobilize, or any hard CC.

Making it cost more would do nothing to “perma stealth thieves OP” as it now requires utilities to maintain that anyway. Also incresing the initiative cost of that combo from 9 (3/4 of the total initiative pool) to any more than that would make it virtually unusable.

HS spam is already easily outplayed.

Zach.3264:

dylan.5409:

The denial is strong in this thread lol
Its a strong ability, too strong imo for an auto target with so many extras (leap finisher, high damage under 25%, gap closer)
Thieves have enough on demand burst, they can be stressful to fight against, they dont need extra burst

I wonder how long it takes for someone to reply now with “if you die to HS you’re bad, I never die to HS because I’m amazing!”

Or something along those lines.

How about something to the effect of HS does less DPS than autoattack above 50% health, about equivalent between 50% and 25% and superior damage only below 25%. This means that if someone is dying to HS at above 25%, they would be dying even faster against just autoattack. Meanwhile, the thieves spamming HS at the higher levels of health could be saving their initiative for more effective uses.

HS should not be changed because above 25% it fills the role of utility with a leap finisher and gap closer. Below that it fills the role of a player finisher. Spamming it outside of these 2 cases us a waste of initiative, but it’s not the role of the game to spoonfeed you that fact, just like it doesn’t stop eles from using blast finishers if they didn’t put down a field to finish. Nerfing this skill just to show newer players how/when to use this skill just nerfs the utility side of it for potentially speeding up someone’s learning curve is a bad idea.

Foefaller.1082:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The necromancer

-Will never be desired in dungeons, unless they receive a Cleave skill.
-Will never have any use for boon removal in PVE, unless boon removal actually becomes a thing in PVE. Right now it is irrelevant.
-Will never find a good use for conditions in PVE, unless PVE is changed to be not so anti-conditions. The condition cap has to go.
-Will never have a use for control skills in boss battles, unless Defiant/Unshakeable is changed. Right now control skills are rendered useless against bosses.
-Death Shroud will never work well, unless is changed so that it no longer is an obstruction to our class. We should be able to heal in DS (untraited) and we should be able to use our utility skills in DS.

Our class is fundamentally broken in PVE from the ground up. The entire design of PVE contradicts our class’ core features. And yet with any balance podcast, our class is quickly skipped as if it does not matter.

We necromancers feel like a neglected child.

There might be a light at the end of the tunnel. One of the guys in the stream mentioned offhand during the Ele part that their lack of boon removals will start becoming an issue with upcoming content, which makes me think the opposite is true, and professions with good boon removal will start seeing more demand for that part of their skill set in PvE.

Also, there are already monsters- namely the partially digested husks that appear in the Triple Trouble world boss in Bloodtide, that are nigh-invulnerable to direct damage, but melt to condition damage. While I agree that condi damage mechanics need to be tweaked to be more viable in content where direct damage currently dominates (and that Necros need a little help in doing direct damage on top of that), it is something of a start.

Glad someone else noticed this also. Regardless of whether you liked the storyline of LW so far, mechanically, the mobs they’ve created during it have been more interesting such as the husks that you mentioned or the toxic fighters which go into down state and then knock you back while you try to stomp them. They seemed to be getting excited about things they can’t talk about right now.

Let’s not forget that the gauntlet area scales in such a way that it punishes zerging. PvE looks like it’s going to get more interesting.

I thought I would drop this in here. If you watch the ready-up (http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/4456907 1 hr, 2 min) they talk about where the thief is currently in terms of its strength, its weaknesses, and its ability to disengage via stealth/mobility.

Right now the thief seems like it’s pretty much exactly where they want it to be.

Cogbyrn.7283:

godz raiden.2631:

Carighan.6758:

• Special handling Shadow Refuge: You stay invis while inside. Once it ends, you got 3 more seconds.

No one would ever take shadow refuge again. They would just take blinding powder to get 3-4 seconds immediately rather than wait in a circle that says “Spam AoEs and cleave attacks here while I try and evade.” That would be such a horrific change to that ability…

So you’re saying the heal, the extra 5 seconds of stealth, all of the bonuses that can be traited into being in stealth, and the ability to throw it down at range to potentially save an ally from being stomped across a fight wouldn’t at all be worth it because the only part that matters to you is the 10+ seconds of stealth you can sit in after the SR AoE wears off?

How much do you think one utility should be able to do?

It should do the exact amount it does now.

Arikyali.5804:

I’ll agree, it is a great set for duels. Probably because I’m quite used to d/d that d/p wasn’t difficult to swap to.

fireflyry.7023:

$100 says there is no guildie, just a disgruntled player who got stomped.The guise of “lol me terribad but thief so easy and op and gimmicky lol” is paper thin.Nice try though.

Actually…you were the necro weren’t you….

Mmmm…nope. Here’s a lovely picture of my thief. I don’t even play necro.

Can I have the $100?

Conveniently cutting out the level and not including the matches played pie chart too!

;P

D/P 2/6/0/0/6 with 5 gambits works well against deadeye as someone else mentioned. When he teleports away, just be careful you don’t shadowstep into a mine as he’s running towards you. Thieves guild helps immensely with the frailty gambit as well.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

oZii.2864:

Disappointing Ash! If you really know ele you know that strength isn’t why ele is viable. It’s might which could be done with hoelbrak.

Hoelbrak and strength give 6 arcana Eles 9 stacks of might permanent with a battle sigil. The 7% modifier is getting to much credit for what 7% mod actually does it’s an increase but the meta build is a bunker/brawler with 2 in earth.

Just flat no armor consideration. 1500 lightning whip = 1607 with 7% modifier big whoopty doo!

3000 burning speed = 3210 with 7% modifier big whoopty doo.

It’s the might that matters the 7% modifier isn’t as big as people make it out to be on a bunker build with only 2 modifiers.

They nerf strength Eles will use hoelbrak if it’s better, they nerf hoelbrak Eles will use water or pirate if it’s better. They would have to go through 4 rune sets to stop ele from stacking might like it can now or nerf ele.

People complain now imagine if Eles put on water runes.

on topic isn’t meta breaking mean unplayable? Or is there some other meaning to breaking I don’t know like almost OP, kind of OP, sort of OP, to OP.

You can easily have 6-9, maybe spiking upwards with just running Sigil of Battle. The runeset isn’t really needed for that. Of course the damage increase would be up 100% of the time using the Sigil and the runeset but 7% isn’t that great.

I think the biggest problem is just how easy you can Might stack with very little effort. Hoelbrak would be a cheaper version of Strength but at the expense of the damage increase though its not that huge.

*So it is just a coincidence that when this runeset comes out that suddenly Ele are popping up into S/TPvP more and more? Rarely saw them before the recent update now they are coming out in numbers. *

the question is, when this runset gets nerfed, how much of an impact will that have on the ele? I don’t think the actual update changes they got really helped them that much, some were decent but not really suddenly making us really strong or anything.

a 7% damage increase all the time, a long with all the other options they have for increased damage is still pretty good.

They also reverted some PvP specific nerfs, added a weapon evade, and boosted the stats of celestial amulet. Before you would see videos of strong ele players in WvW, now you see them in PvP as well because they don’t have one hand tied behind their back anymore. New runes are only a small piece of a series of changes that have helped.

nopoet.2960:

Does anyone still run 2/6/0/0/6?

I still do also.

@OP: Occasionally I switch it up for 5/0/0/3/6 (in pvp). It’s pretty fun and dishes out comparable damage to 2/6/0/0/6. One thing about your build though, I’m not entirely sure pain response is worth taking while you’re also picking up shadow’s embrace, but it’s up to you.

Have fun.

Unless they changed it, you can actually get the revealed training to work on backstab since it has a 1/2 second animation. If you start the backstab, then steal (with mug), the backstab will land after you are revealed, allowing for it to be affected by the trait.

Strength: +45% might duration, +7% damage.

vs

Hoelbrak: +30% might duration, -20% condi duration

vs

Pirate: +10% might duration, + burst party might, + bird (which can hit like a truck)

It seems like these are all relatively balanced compared to each other, people just go for the +personal damage part which can be wiped out with a single boon strip rather than the other bonuses which are pretty strong as well. The might nerf strength runes, but they may also consider them fairly balanced.

Emi.4152:

when you engaged the TC mesmer west of garri… at around… 7:10ish in the video… how did you cast IS the 2nd time without going backwards with the return? .

^^^^!

I didn’t even notice this the first time because I assumed he stole to the mesmer at the end of IS.

@OP, can you cancel IR with IS now that IR has a cast time?

It’s been at least 8 months since anyone put up a D/P + S/D video.

Nice.

azerte.4365:

People give names to builds because of the people who made it popular,
2/6/0/6/0 s/d is “Jumper’s” build
2/6/0/0/6 d/p is “Caed’s” build
0/6/6/2/0 d/d is “Yishis’s” build
2/0/0/6/6 s/d is “Sizer’s” build
Did these people create the build? No. But they were famous enough to make it known to most players hence people refer to those builds by calling it after the player who made it popular.

+1

This pretty much sums it up. I first saw someone mention 2/0/0/6/6 back when we were discussing the vigor nerf (vigorous recovery and bountiful theft) but it’s not like it gained serious traction back then. It took a prominent tournament thief to get it recognized as a viable build.

@ OP: You could think of it as saying “the build that sizer used” but that’s just not as easy as “sizer’s build”

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

wish I had the ability to force my opponent to press tab every 3 seconds to even try get a single hit,

if you get off of making people miserable and mad then its the class for you

So if pressing tab is proving to be too complex for you in the heat of battle there are 2 options that you can check in the general options tab:

“Autotargetting: If you use a skill without a target, the game will automatically choose an appropriate target for you”

and

“Promote Skill Target: Automatically promote targets to lock targets when hitting them”

Hope this helps.

Shockwave.1230:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ah, I didn’t think about the precision/ferocity side of it. Including the power increase, you lose 10% damage with the change, but dagger training makes up half that difference, then the might stacks bring up the rest of that, but I get where you’re coming from on it.

I decided to test your build out and compare it to the 5/6/0/0/3 I’ve been running. Backstabs are doing 12%-13% less and my crit chance is @ 55% max with fury while using 5/0/0/3/6. With the build I’m running currently I’m hitting 6400 backstabs when I crit on the light armor golem, whereas the other build is averaging 5700 when I crit on the Golem. I also have 81% max crit chance with the 5/6/0/0/3 with traits and fury, so the disparity in DPS over time is probably more than 20% before even considering Executioner.

Well compared to the 5/6/0/0/3 (full glass) you would certainly see a decrease like that. I was thinking more of a comparison to 2/6/0/0/6 (standard trickery) since that one is only taking full advantage of one offensive trait line (and is my favorite as well). You are correct though, there certainly would be a rather large disparity between what you run and this. I misunderstood to which build you were comparing it.

Ah, I didn’t think about the precision/ferocity side of it. Including the power increase, you lose 10% damage with the change, but dagger training makes up half that difference, then the might stacks bring up the rest of that, but I get where you’re coming from on it.

Well, you lose executioner, but you don lose 20% of your damage. Comparing it to a 2/6/0/0/6 build, you have +200 base power and dependable +10% damage from exposed weakness versus initial strikes (subjectively dependable). So with a base power of 2300 (rounding) versus 2100, you’re getting about a 9.5% increase in your base damage which is constant throughout the fight. Also, the dodges play an important role in building might stacks in addition to keeping you alive. In a short fight with stealing and the subsequent dodges and procs from Sigil/Rune of Strength, you can quickly build up around 10 stacks.

Anyway, if it’s not your cup of tea, that’s fine, but I found it to be an interesting new twist on it.

So, I haven’t played a lot of games with it in PvP yet, but I decided to try a slightly different version of D/P trickery the other day if you’d like to try it out.

5/0/0/3/6 D/P + SB

Mug & Dagger Training
Power of Inertia
TotC, BT, SoH

Runes of Strength
Zerker amulet
Sigil of Strength +[ your choice]

It gives you a flatter damage output, and with the fury from TotC, crit chance is generally not an issue. It’s nice having feline grace and vigor in a D/P trickery build also.

0/6/5/3/0 has also been successful for people lately. If you pick up power of inertia, it stacks nicely with SA 5 as long as you have some sort of might duration runes (typically strength, but I have seen pirate and hoelbrak as well). Give it a whirl.

Edit:
Something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl0Mp0plPxrJ8PNxOBtdAq9A49EdovcA-T1SBABWqqwDHCAKVrxMlgXpMLijAAWKNwTfwCnAAe2fAgHAAA-w

I included hoelbrak runes because they’re cheaper. Anyway, play around with it adding more or less vitality as you see fit.

P.S: Don’t get WvW badge armor right now. Since they changed how transmutation stones work, your expensive rues can get stuck in it until they fix it.

The only time thieves really had trouble finding groups for dungeons was in the first months of the game where everyone was still learning and trying to tank damage. Thieves were horrible at that and everyone thought they were bad. Since then thieves (rather the players behind the thieves) have gotten better and learned how and when to dodge. You will be heavily scrutinized, but if you’re kicked, it won’t be just because you’re a thief.

As someone who has an 80 thief, ele, mes, war, and engineer, play what you feel like playing that day. I would consider thief to be my main, as it’s the most fun for me. Ele and mes are tied for second, with ele taking a slight lead because of the acrobatic nature and great utility/group support. Engineer and war are alright. They are fun once in a blue moon for me, but their playstyle is not for me in long stretches. They lack the same feel that you get from thief/ele/mes (hitting hard with high

As Sir Kaboomski said, impossible to answer, just play what you like and switch when you need a break.

With the heartseeker combo, the damage applies before the end of the combo. With BPS, the damage seems to hit after the combo. Don’t know why, but thats just how it works. When people used to use unsuspecting foe with hammers, the +50% would always trigger before the damage hit when using earthshaker. Could just be coded in different orders so the effects of blast finishers apply before damage, and the effects of leap finishers apply after damage.

They actually buffed withdraw by about 20% iirc because it couldn’t compete with HiS. Right now it’s in a pretty decent place. Consider that even though it’s un-interruptable (since it’s just a dodge), ~4.5k health covers about 2-3 autoattacks from most power builds. Also your idea of putting a 3/4 second interruptable part on the end of the dodge would give it a huge telegraph saying you better have an interrupt at the end of this shiny blue backflip with a pretty big margin of error. You couldn’t put it at the beginning of the heal either because it couldn’t be used reactively if you had to wait 3/4 of a second before the evade kicks in.

Tldr:
For practical reasons (and because I think the heal is pretty well balanced), withdraw doesn’t need to be changed.

alamore.1974:

a t s e.9614:

Are you one of those people who stops attacking when thief/mesmer goes invis ? If yes then you already know what I’m going to say. L2P

Sry to rain on you parade but some weapons need targets making that strategy useless.
Good job at trying to find a way to say L2P

You can carry 2 weapons on most classes you know. Off the top of my head I can’t think of a profession that wouldn’t have AoE or long channels or wouldn’t require a target while carrying 2 unique weapons.

@DecieverX: I would think around 600 would be fair, since it would be on par in terms of distance with IS, require you to hit them ahead of time, and only cripple. It would be about as spammable as shadowstrike (same initiative total).

@ Shockwave: Would definitely wield spark/usoko’s needle in offhand (closest looking imo)

I still like the idea of this being a single target rollover skill for 2 initiative that gives your target a debuff (like warrior’s impale) that sits there for about 10 seconds (no DoT though). Activating the rollover (2 initiative, instant cast) shadowsteps you to your target and cripples them for 3-5 seconds. Small damage on both the initial hit and the shadowstep. P/D would use almost all of their skills and D/D gets a slight utility boost with a little more mobility to keep up with D/P. I don’t think it would be too powerful with CnD to have it instant cast because the total cost would be 10 initiative.

hihey pretty much nailed it. The only caveat I would make is that with a MM necro, if you kite them and focus the minions (counter intuitive, I know) you have an alright chance in a 1v1. Their main burst (if you want to call it that) is immobilizing you with dark pact and letting the minions siphon health. Always avoid the minions, but the necro itself is squishy (as far as necros go). If you keep pinging them with shortbow, then interrupt their heal with SoH/steal, then skull fear the minions and necro, you have a good chance of bursting them down in that 2-3 second period.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

*Why is this important to the Thieves?

Why is this important to other profession?
- It will allow other professions to counter Thieves using Chill and other interrupt.

I always dislike the argument that chill doesn’t affect thieves. Our utilities, elite, and heal all get slowed down as well as our movement speed. The only thing unaffected is weapon skills without physical movement attached (since heartseeker and deathblossom are affected in terms of range).

Also if they wanted thief weapon skills to be interruptable, they could just make them interruptable like they did by mistake with the new mesmer GM trait. Since they fixed that rather quickly, it’s apparent that they think the loss in initiative enough (I didn’t mind this effect, but apparently they thought it too powerful).

In addition to these proposed changes, I propose that whenever a class with cooldowns is swapped to a different weapon/attunement/kit, their other cooldowns do not work.

An example: a hambo warrior uses all of their hammer abilities then swaps to bow. While they are in bow, the recharge on their hammer skills do not move. When they switch back to hammer, their bow skills stop recharging, and their hammer skills resume charging. It’s only fair since other classes can spam their abilities and then switch with no regard for resource management.

(/sarcasm)

vincecontix.1264:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well, I don’t know about P/D, but D/D is (virtually) impossible to engage a (competent) D/D ele with. .

If you ever watched I am mugi play you would think otherwise.

“Virtually impossible”. We can’t all be as good as mugi and decent eles I’ve fought tend to punish you for trying to CnD off of them.

LexIcon.2819:

Pat yourselves on your backs in this glorious circlejerk and keep deluding yourself you’re any good with a thief.

A thief, lol.

Yeah, those are the exact types of hate whispers we get. Thanks for the great example!

Well, I don’t know about P/D, but D/D is (virtually) impossible to engage a (competent) D/D ele with. D/P gives you a nice fighting chance as long as you try to keep them blind. 2/6/0/0/6 is a decent build as long as you save the steal (sleight of hand) for their heal. Most of them use the long channel one which has a very distinctive sound/animation, and try to cover it with stability. BT & SoH can interrupt that and give you a fighting chance. Also try to use their stolen skill right after they leave water attunement.

Just as a little advice to help the OP. When I’m on my warrior, Axe/X + Longbow counters S/D thieves pretty well. Axe autos are fast enough that there aren’t enough evade frames fo soak them all and Longbow F1 will force the thief to take damage if they want to get close to you. Once you figure out the timing of S/D, you should be able to catch them with an eviscerate (~75% of the thief’s health). Try casting it when they start flanking strike and you should catch them right after the evade frames end.

Take a break from thief. A few good alts keep the game interesting. Mesmer (glkittenter) is a lot of fun.

D/D balanced is a lot of fun right now, and D/P trickery w/ little to no condi removal is pretty high octane right now (even though you said you’re bored with D/P).

Edit: Really filters? GxLxAxSxS-SxHxAxTxTxExR

Ritt.3069:

Thief is actually in a pretty good spot right now, being fully viable in all game modes. The S/P, S/D and D/P trickery builds are still a flavor in PvP, and although most people run gimmick stealth builds in WvW, some (myself included) have adopted the trickery style of play in WvW as well. S/P + D/D is still the meta in PvE methinks.

While there have been a lot of just and unjust nerfs, there’s still a lot of neat stuff we’ve gotten along the way. The increased ini rate allowed for a diversity of builds to exist. Changing PW, and splitting LS in two. Heck, even the mug ‘nerf’ is not all that bad. The new runes and sigils also compliment our bursts very well.

What can make the thieves look weak are the few really strong condi builds out there atm, but they are sure to see some kind of tweaking ‘in the future’. But are thieves viable? While some weapon sets with several unmenial skills such as D/D and P/P could use some love, yes, we are viable, and verily so.

Ps. Were anyone in need of advice, feel free to whisper me in game.

Yeah, while trickery may not be “optimal” in WvW, it sure is a lot of fun. It’s decent in small group situations with boon ripping/sharing. Took a while for me to get into it, but it becomes addicting to interrupt heals with a steal.

Thief is in a pretty decent spot right now I think.