Guild Wars 2

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

If you don’t consider tears of fallen enemies rewarding, then yeah, not too rewarding…

:P

Not to mention the everlasting tears on the forums…

If you don’t consider tears of fallen enemies rewarding, then yeah, not too rewarding…

:P

DarkSyze.8627:

Zero Day.2594:

:/ The OP also forgot to mention somewhere in the end for those that don’t like stealth to please wait, there will be nerfs.

Zero Day; you know there will not be nerfs until arena net is serious about make thief challenge class. Look example; 2 year; so many player tell arena net problem about thief and here is result; thief is still problem. Example; if car always have same problem when take to car mechanic; do you not have reason to complain and not be happy?

Again, the thief doesn’t need nerfs, it is your inexperience at dealing with thieves.

Here’s a montage of counterbursting them:

HtFde.3856:

Maugetarr.6823:

HtFde.3856:

I kinda have come to dread statements like “you can see the animation winding up” – in sPVP maybe – in WvW when yur’re fighting against 1 or 2 opponents … you might be leet enough to fight and still maintain a 360° awareness – I don’t. So I cannot see the thief doing his oh so obvious animation while I try to deal with an enraged guardian, warrior or whatever … blame it on me then …

Wait, you’re already fighting versus one or two people so a burst class comes in and finishes you. That would happen with virtually any group of 2 or 3 that decided to focus you down. Especially if you’ve blown cooldowns in that fight. If you can have 2-3 people jump you and survive without cooldowns, then that class would be OP, not the thief.

Even when a thief gets focused, they typically blow 2 cooldowns to escape.

I never made the claim that I was leet enough to handle 2-3 people (of equal skill) while fighting like that. If we’re having this whole argument on the fact that you can lose against 1v2+ burst people attacking you, burst (and auto attacks) across all classes would have to be severely reduced in damage.

Oh … 1 or 2 people is peachy with a bomb engi – you run a lot It’s just that you have to see where they’re headed, how far they are behind and where you can get out of LoS again … so a “Hello there!” visit from a thief is a bit of problem where even a normal 3rd player wouldn’t be as long as I can see them and choose my pathing (unless, of course, they come directly from where I am headed but this is a rare occurence like when deeply in enemy territory)

Mesmers are another issue but they usually have a problem to land the full attack on a running Engi so they’re better survivable, even if they approach from stealth.

…..Maybe we should take a look at the survivability of bomb engi then, hmm? Or maybe, just maybe, thief was supposed relegated to single target spike/harassment in group battles where builds have a peachy time surviving up to 3 people attacking them simultaneously.

HtFde.3856:

I kinda have come to dread statements like “you can see the animation winding up” – in sPVP maybe – in WvW when yur’re fighting against 1 or 2 opponents … you might be leet enough to fight and still maintain a 360° awareness – I don’t. So I cannot see the thief doing his oh so obvious animation while I try to deal with an enraged guardian, warrior or whatever … blame it on me then …

Wait, you’re already fighting versus one or two people so a burst class comes in and finishes you. That would happen with virtually any group of 2 or 3 that decided to focus you down. Especially if you’ve blown cooldowns in that fight. If you can have 2-3 people jump you and survive without cooldowns, then that class would be OP, not the thief.

Even when a thief gets focused, they typically blow 2 cooldowns to escape.

I never made the claim that I was leet enough to handle 2-3 people (of equal skill) while fighting like that. If we’re having this whole argument on the fact that you can lose against 1v2+ burst people attacking you, burst (and auto attacks) across all classes would have to be severely reduced in damage.

HtFde.3856:

Maugetarr.6823:

DarkSyze.8627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DarkSyze.8627:

yolo swaggins.2570:

DarkSyze.8627:

So you are say thief can not spam? i can show many evidence of thief spam from other thief player. I experience thief spam every time i go to wvw and spvp; so what you say, i do not know what spam is? Initiative is not excuse for thief class; every class should have same punishment and same consequence when not play good; no excuse.

This is why nobody is taking you seriously:

You say “evidence” and then say it should be nerfed due to said evidence, but you do not show any evidence that you’ve played thief to the extent we have. Focusing on a small part of the thief’s issues without factoring in the other problems that are keeping the original problems from being solved shows that you are ignorant to all of the problems revolving around thief. It shows that you do not play thief and have no clue what you are talking about.

And if you had ANY idea what you were talking about, you’de know that no amount of vid and thread spamming will change it or our minds. Deal with it and git gud or don’t and git out.

Example; do you have to be in hospital to be sick? So because i do not play thief class; i do not know what thief class is? I am ignorant for not play thief class? so you say same as example; because you are not in hospital; you are ignorant? It do not make sense.

That’s a horrible analogy.

Just because you’re a die hard NASCAR fan and have seen all the races, you still remain ignorant of what’s happening behind the wheel.

Those drivers, just as those Thieves, make what they do look easy.

I stand by my analogy; i am not ignorant. Ignorant mean- “lack of knowledge and training” ; http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ignorant What lack of knowledge i have; i experience thieves all time in wvw and spvp. I have thieves in party, guild and server; zerg. Last; lack of training; i experience thieves in spvp; training game mode. It make no sense what you say about me be ignorant.

I experience and know what stealth is; arena net did not invent stealth! arena net did not invent thief class, arena net did not invent mobility, teleport, evasion, dodge and critic damage. You think i am new to mmo game; ask me before you call me ignorant; not hard; very easy.

So again, just because i do not play thief class, it do not make me or any not thief player ignorant.

Suggestion; You need to be careful of using that word; adjective word of ignorant is stupid, idiot, imbecile. It can get you in serious trouble.

Knowing how something is done and being able to do it yourself are completely different things. There is time and experienced involved. You are inexperienced in how to use a thief and it appears that you die too quickly in fights against them from your posts to gain experience fighting them. That is why people suggest that you play one yourself, so you can see the other side of the coin, learn the setups and strategies first hand, then take that to your main once you know how to counter them.

There is no counter but sheer luck against a macro’ed CnD preload, Steal + Backstab. Luck as that a nearby guardian grants Aegis, luck that some blind happens and affects the chain, luck that you happen to move or dodge someone elses attack and thus mess up the thief’s attack …

Outside of sheer luck the combo will land and – especially if you’re fighting someone else and have already lost some life – it’ll most likely be deadly.

You can actually see the animation for CnD winding up before the steal or you should dodge immediately after the steal hits because they have cast it late.

You can pop a block against the backstab if you miss dodging the CnD.

You can simply turn around and take the 1.2 coefficient to the face also. 1.2 also happens to be the same coefficient as necro auto attacks on dagger. Warrior has a 1.4 on double and triple chop as well as a 1.5 on the final hit of triple chop (1.5 is equal to a midrange heartseeker). Lightning whip has a 1.4 on the hit pairs. The single target burst is meant to bring thief up to other classes’ sustained damage in trade for defensive boons, cooldowns, and AoE bursts.

DarkSyze.8627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DarkSyze.8627:

yolo swaggins.2570:

DarkSyze.8627:

So you are say thief can not spam? i can show many evidence of thief spam from other thief player. I experience thief spam every time i go to wvw and spvp; so what you say, i do not know what spam is? Initiative is not excuse for thief class; every class should have same punishment and same consequence when not play good; no excuse.

This is why nobody is taking you seriously:

You say “evidence” and then say it should be nerfed due to said evidence, but you do not show any evidence that you’ve played thief to the extent we have. Focusing on a small part of the thief’s issues without factoring in the other problems that are keeping the original problems from being solved shows that you are ignorant to all of the problems revolving around thief. It shows that you do not play thief and have no clue what you are talking about.

And if you had ANY idea what you were talking about, you’de know that no amount of vid and thread spamming will change it or our minds. Deal with it and git gud or don’t and git out.

Example; do you have to be in hospital to be sick? So because i do not play thief class; i do not know what thief class is? I am ignorant for not play thief class? so you say same as example; because you are not in hospital; you are ignorant? It do not make sense.

That’s a horrible analogy.

Just because you’re a die hard NASCAR fan and have seen all the races, you still remain ignorant of what’s happening behind the wheel.

Those drivers, just as those Thieves, make what they do look easy.

I stand by my analogy; i am not ignorant. Ignorant mean- “lack of knowledge and training” ; http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ignorant What lack of knowledge i have; i experience thieves all time in wvw and spvp. I have thieves in party, guild and server; zerg. Last; lack of training; i experience thieves in spvp; training game mode. It make no sense what you say about me be ignorant.

I experience and know what stealth is; arena net did not invent stealth! arena net did not invent thief class, arena net did not invent mobility, teleport, evasion, dodge and critic damage. You think i am new to mmo game; ask me before you call me ignorant; not hard; very easy.

So again, just because i do not play thief class, it do not make me or any not thief player ignorant.

Suggestion; You need to be careful of using that word; adjective word of ignorant is stupid, idiot, imbecile. It can get you in serious trouble.

Knowing how something is done and being able to do it yourself are completely different things. There is time and experienced involved. You are inexperienced in how to use a thief and it appears that you die too quickly in fights against them from your posts to gain experience fighting them. That is why people suggest that you play one yourself, so you can see the other side of the coin, learn the setups and strategies first hand, then take that to your main once you know how to counter them.

DarkSyze.8627:

Narkodx.1472:

DarkSyze.8627:

Narkodx.1472:

DarkSyze – man you need to use FACTUAL evidence not anecdotal stupidity like fastest evasion fastest kill fastest everything… wtf does that even mean

Thieves Guild has a ridiculous cooldown you may be able to use it once a fight

Mesmers have phantasms and clones on weapon skills there is no comparison

Unless you use FACTS and stop using “fastest kill” no one can take you seriously

Facts? Here is 2 year+ beta Fact; see no serious change to thief class even this year 2015.
and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback-Merged/first

I always do research when i post; that is why research is good for find fact and result; very simple.

The existence of this thread is a FACT that Thieves are OP? LOL

OK man keep doing research and you will see PLENTY of nerfs since the beta to the Thief class

See thief now and compare with past 2012; what plenty of nerfs? I want you read this; http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmers-cause-meta

Read it. Rolled my eyes once I reached the combat log part as he only showed 1 side of it. The thief seemingly dropped shadow refuge for no reason?

The meta didn’t evolve because of thieves. It evolved because bunkers realized if they split their stats and went hybrid they could still deal great damage while maintaining survivability. Other zerker classes realized they could put points in survivability and still maintain burst by making up for it with sigils. The current meta evolved because sigils got independent cooldowns so they could stack sigils of the same type and effectively cover multiple weaknesses of their builds.

He also says thieves (and mesmers) push other zerkers out of the meta, but fails to recognize medi guard or S/F ele as actually pressuring and downing thieves pretty well.

In fact, I would argue that the current meta has forced thieves into their current builds which almost all revolve around 6 in trickery to try to break through the numerous defensive and offensive boons stacked by these classes.

draxynnic.3719:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Where is this supposed thief with a rifle? My best guess is that people are looking at the norn at roughly 1:05, but there’s nothing about him that I see that points to him not being an engineer. Heck, it may even be the same character – albeit in different equipment – that shows off the engineer hammer later in the trailer.

We can hope it’s a rifle for thieves though. But as to the engineer wielding a hammer, if you go to 0:55-0:59, you can see both that norn and the engineer in the same shot, so they are not the same character. This doesn’t prove its a thief, but thief would have been left of of the group what appears to be 9-11 player characters. It would seem that one of each class is there, and a possible ranger (or thief, it seems to be medium armor) at top right, while the engineer is bottom left. It’s possible thief isn’t represented in this group though.

BFMV.3198:

Maugetarr.6823:

BFMV.3198:

Maugetarr.6823:

A hard hitting weapon that punishes your foes for getting closer while still being the longest range thief weapon. Mostly single target.

Auto Attack: increasing in damage the closer you get (in contrast to Rangers And Mesmers who get a damage boost the farther you get away, more like Necro lifeblast)
0-600 range: 1.0
600-1000 range: 0.8
1000-1200:0.6
Total time shot to shot:1 second

Stealth Attack: A simple Boon strip
1.5 Multiplier
0-600 range: Remove 3 boons
600-1000: Remove 2 boons
1000-1200: Remove a boon
Unblockable

#2: Get some life steal on your autoattacks
Cast time: 0.5 sec
3 Initiative
Range 450
1.0 Mult
3 targets
Blind and damage foes in a cone
dark field: 4 seconds
(operates like warrior’s hammer shock, but leaves a dark field)

#3: Hit your foe in the face with the butt of your rifle while evading backwards
Cast Time: Instant
4 initiative
Range: 130
Mult: 0.5
Evade backwards 300
Blind and Weaken target: 3 seconds

#4: A more powerful headshot
Cast Time: Instant
5 Initiative
Range: 1200
Mult: 0.25
0-600: Knockback 150
600-1000: Knockback 50
1000-1200: Daze 0.25 sec

#5:
Cast Time: Instant
6 Initiative
Range:1200
Mult: 1.5
Cripple your target 5 seconds
Shadowstep to your target

Eww no. Dude, we are thieves with a specialisation that will be close to Assassin I reakon aye.

You are a thief and you wanna get close with a long range weapon. Dude it doesn’t fit. Enough of this CC at close range instead make he rifle a glass burst and long range control weapon, that punishes single targets from a long distance and stuns and dazes them from a distance.

It fits perfectly lol, and adds a support role to the thief as they can stay outside of close combat and avoid being nuked while picking off targets.

But it does have long range cc and punishes people for getting closer. Also the gap closer and stealth attack has a. 1.5 multiplier, making them equivalent to a midrange heatseeker. I doubt we’d get a weapon that let us burst and stay at range. The strong autos would make up for that, allowing you to save initiative for the other skills on the weaponset.

Why would you want a gap closer on a RANGED weapon. I
m sorry but that is idiotic. Can you imagine Sword – Dagger thieves 2 skill teleporting them away?? That is the same thing mate.

And why can’t we have burst at range? Because whiners say so? Rangers can burst at range and thieves are meant to be strong at burst.

Giving them a really strong single target damage weapon to control and take out targets fits perfectly into it

First, if they gave us a burst on it you know it would end up as an initiative dump just like unload. That’s why the auto at closer range hits for slightly harder than ranger longbow at full distance(it’s equivalent to lifeblast at >600 units).

Sword 2 allows you to engage and disengage (i.e. teleport away). This allows you to control the fight. As to the gap closer. If you read through all of them, you can see that it deals the most damage at medium range, while coming down to SB damage at long range. The gap closer allows you to pursue and harass a fleeing enemy. When they turn around after they realize they can’t escape, you’ve got a short distance knockback, blind, and evade (gap creator) all ready. This allows you to control the distance and pace of the fight just like sword 2. Additionally, it’s meant to synergize with other weapons because of the cripple, especially D/D which lacks the gap closers this has. It’s about controlling the fight without having too many hard cc’s (so hopefully less QQ).

Example: Ranger on a ledge that’s keeping distance in PvP Rapid Firing your teammates. You could try to fight him at range, but that’s likely not going to go in your favor. You could use the gap closer, saving steal, knock him into into the fight with the short range knockback, then he’s crippled, and interrupted, so you can switch to your close combat set and engage. The damage is equivalent to a 50-25% heartseeker as well(slightly more damage than mug), so it makes a nice opener.

If you don’t like it, that’s fine. That’s just what I want to see: Medium to high sustained damage without having to use up initiative so you can actually react to your opponents.

Maybe not a sniper, but a scout is what the specialization would be. Perhaps a medium-sustained-damage, long range, single target weapon as opposed to SB which is a low(ish) damage, medium range, multitarget, utility weapon. perhaps it will be excellent at debuffing single targets for the team (or themselves) to burst down.

Einlanzer.1627:

Grinex.7046:

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Again, D/D is a power weapon set, not hybrid, not versatile, spamming 3 won’t do anything but kill new/unexperienced players, the Thief’s only real condition set is D/P, has better Bleed pressure and Torment, and with 6 in Trickery you get Confusion also for a nice condition burst which outshines D/D’s condition damage in every way, just because S/D and D/P are power sets that doesn’t mean D/D needs to have a complete useless ability just so people can think of it like the hybrid set when it really isn’t.

Wrong. First of all, PvP isn’t the only game mode and you don’t start the game at level 80 with Ascended gear.

Secondly, I’ve already posted on this, but people have this small-minded need to create False Dichotomies between power weapons and condi weapons when that’s obviously not how the game was designed.

Weapons were designed with varying levels of versatility along different spectra (single-target or AoE, physical damage or condition damage). Most weapons have some capability with all play-styles but emphasize one over others to varying degrees.

The fact that D/D has Poison and potent Bleed stacking ability means quite simply that it was designed as a single-target primary versatile/hybrid with respect to damage type. I don’t care what anybody’s arguments are that Poison is a control condition and that the Bleed stacking is weak/useless.

It’s designed to be versatile. If you refuse to see this then, frankly, you’re blinded by myopia.

The problem is is that D/D does not have the condition diversity to make it into either a hybrid or condi set. Look at the 3 (main) cele classes. They have at least 2 damaging conditions and can add the utility of poison through sigils. P/D has access to 2 damaging conditions and the stealth skill require CnD which creates somewhat of a cover condition. Making the set synergize better. Even the dual skill has more synergy as it has over double the multiplier as well as decent damage and a gap creator all built in. If you want to talk about tagging multiple mobs, pistolwhip works much better for the initiative spent, since the multiplier is much higher and the evade lasts for ~50% of the total time. Also that weaponset naturally cleaves one more target than daggers do.

It’s not myopic or short sighted to look at D/D and come to the conclusion that it is limited compared to what other classes have available to hybrid builds. It’s just realistic.

Also, if you think D/D is a hybrid /condi build, look at D/X and X/D when not paired together. D/X is focused around power and utility; X/D is focused around power and utility. Only when D/D #3 is looked at do we magically see it become condi focused. When only 1/5 skills in a set can be considered a condi skill, it’s out of place in the set.

Even though that’s my view on it, I’m not advocating removing the bleeds from it. Simply making the skill have more utility and a better animation would bring it up to par with the other dual skills.

Edit: I just realized that you were talking about how strong the single target bleed is, and that’s actually a worse argument than advocating it as multitarget. Look at ele scepter which is able to maintain 9 stacks of bleed with their auto attack at 900 range. Look at warrior’s sword auto and it’s bleeds that can be extended greatly with a single trait. There are much better single target bleeds in the game that don’t need to dump their global cooldowns in building the stack because it is so easily removed.

The “no other class can [something ]” arguments really fall flat. Every class in this game can do something unique. Also, considering they removed the ability to CnD off walls in keeps, and now it is back, either it’s a bug that you should report, or they thought there was enough counterplay with stealth disruptor traps, arrow carts, sic em, and utility goggles.

BFMV.3198:

Maugetarr.6823:

A hard hitting weapon that punishes your foes for getting closer while still being the longest range thief weapon. Mostly single target.

Auto Attack: increasing in damage the _closer_ you get (in contrast to Rangers And Mesmers who get a damage boost the farther you get away, more like Necro lifeblast)
0-600 range: 1.0
600-1000 range: 0.8
1000-1200:0.6
Total time shot to shot:1 second

Stealth Attack: A simple Boon strip
1.5 Multiplier
0-600 range: Remove 3 boons
600-1000: Remove 2 boons
1000-1200: Remove a boon
Unblockable

#2: Get some life steal on your autoattacks
Cast time: 0.5 sec
3 Initiative
Range 450
1.0 Mult
3 targets
Blind and damage foes in a cone
dark field: 4 seconds
(operates like warrior’s hammer shock, but leaves a dark field)

#3: Hit your foe in the face with the butt of your rifle while evading backwards
Cast Time: Instant
4 initiative
Range: 130
Mult: 0.5
Evade backwards 300
Blind and Weaken target: 3 seconds

#4: A more powerful headshot
Cast Time: Instant
5 Initiative
Range: 1200
Mult: 0.25
0-600: Knockback 150
600-1000: Knockback 50
1000-1200: Daze 0.25 sec

#5:
Cast Time: Instant
6 Initiative
Range:1200
Mult: 1.5
Cripple your target 5 seconds
Shadowstep to your target

Eww no. Dude, we are thieves with a specialisation that will be close to Assassin I reakon aye.

You are a thief and you wanna get close with a long range weapon. Dude it doesn’t fit. Enough of this CC at close range instead make he rifle a glass burst and long range control weapon, that punishes single targets from a long distance and stuns and dazes them from a distance.

It fits perfectly lol, and adds a support role to the thief as they can stay outside of close combat and avoid being nuked while picking off targets.

But it does have long range cc and punishes people for getting closer. Also the gap closer and stealth attack has a. 1.5 multiplier, making them equivalent to a midrange heatseeker. I doubt we’d get a weapon that let us burst and stay at range. The strong autos would make up for that, allowing you to save initiative for the other skills on the weaponset.

A hard hitting weapon that punishes your foes for getting closer while still being the longest range thief weapon. Mostly single target.

Auto Attack: increasing in damage the closer you get (in contrast to Rangers And Mesmers who get a damage boost the farther you get away, more like Necro lifeblast)
0-600 range: 1.0
600-1000 range: 0.8
1000-1200:0.6
Total time shot to shot:1 second

Stealth Attack: A simple Boon strip
1.5 Multiplier
0-600 range: Remove 3 boons
600-1000: Remove 2 boons
1000-1200: Remove a boon
Unblockable

#2: Get some life steal on your autoattacks
Cast time: 0.5 sec
3 Initiative
Range 450
1.0 Mult
3 targets
Blind and damage foes in a cone
dark field: 4 seconds
(operates like warrior’s hammer shock, but leaves a dark field)

#3: Hit your foe in the face with the butt of your rifle while evading backwards
Cast Time: Instant
4 initiative
Range: 130
Mult: 0.5
Evade backwards 300
Blind and Weaken target: 3 seconds

#4: A more powerful headshot
Cast Time: Instant
5 Initiative
Range: 1200
Mult: 0.25
0-600: Knockback 150
600-1000: Knockback 50
1000-1200: Daze 0.25 sec

#5:
Cast Time: Instant
6 Initiative
Range:1200
Mult: 1.5
Cripple your target 5 seconds
Shadowstep to your target

I mean, they could be getting an extra strike of venom from the GM trait, boosting the base to 4 seconds, then using a sigil for +20%, plus the line gives you +30%, so that would be 6 seconds total. I don’t know why you’d take this over panic strike and/or devourer venom.

Mesmers. It’s already fun when they rage at you. Had one go “22222222” in say chat in pvp yesterday.

Traveler or pack. I prefer pack because it plays nicely with Thrill of the Crime. The power and precision it gives are nice bonuses as well.

Chill does affect the skills that remove chill though. The only thing it doesn’t affect is the weapon skills. If you bait out withdraw or RFI (not that many thieves use it), you can chill them immediately afterward, and it will extend the length of their utility cooldowns. On the flip side, thin about the impact it would have on initiative. If it put the same 66% reduction on it, that would be 1 initiative every 3 seconds. To put that in perspective, that would be 1 heartseeker every 9 seconds, which uses up the entire resource regeneration for that 9 second block. Basically it would kill all the weapon skills on both of the thief’s weapons sets.

I wonder if they’re going to give a 2 handed weapon versus a 1 handed weapon though. A two handed weapon might be easier for them to balance because they don’t have to worry about how the dual skills interact with each combination (P/P being a prime example). While I would like a rifle, it’s mainly just cause I want more ranged options. Although I think I’ll be happy with pretty much anything except warhorn or torch (although a rumor went around a while back about torch being a distinct possibility).

DeceiverX.8361:

Maugetarr.6823:

evilapprentice is certainly correct about both poison and DB. Poison is equivalent to 2 stacks of bleed. It’s most likely going to get cleansed before it does any serious damage to anyone, but its strength lies in its ability to counter people’s sustain and recovery after burst. Damaging conditions either have a higher base or stack in intensity such as burning, bleeding, torment, and confusion. It’s very convenient that the base damage of poison (84) almost matches the base healing of regen while poisoned (~86), which is to say it’s mainly there to kill sustain.

Honestly you guys can keep saying that D/D is a hybrid (or condi), but it doesnt really have enough variety in it’s damaging conditions to be hybrid to make up for the loss in power. Look at the top cele classes that can make use of burning and bleeding, and then use sigil of doom to gain the advantage in prolonged fights. P/D is a decent hybrid/condi set, because it can constantly reapply steady damaging conditions, then put poison on top of it (when traited). Sure death blossom can burst long duration bleeds pretty well, but a single condi clear wipes out all the initiative spent building that. P/D can easily reapply the stack without having to expend initiative doing so, allowing them more flexibility to use their other weapon skills.

You can make up for D/D’s lack of damaging conditions with traits and runes, but you would honestly be more effective if you put that effort into bolstering a P/D build.

They don’t need to remove the bleeds from DB though if you guys think that would kill a spec you enjoy. Instead, just make it similar to warrior’s whirlwind attack (GS#3) so that it can be use better for evasion and has a skill shot on it for tactical repositioning. Keep the damage and the bleeds the same. Then it would have a purpose no mater what type of build you’re trying to use it in.

I mentioned whirlwind in one of the above posts just now. I don’t agree the bleeds could stay the same, though, since a constantly-moving/weaving application of stacks of bleeding during spammed evades paired with utilities like roll for initiative and traited initiative gain on heal for a skill like withdraw would make this concept WAY too strong with far too little to counter it.

It’s why I’m against trying to justify the set as a hybrid one. It isn’t a hybrid set. DB is archaic from a design perspective that is no longer around in GW2. Hybrid setups have proven not to work, and are even harder to balance for the thief due to the dual skills having such a role. D/D shouldn’t be put in the position P/P is in now because of an awkward hybrid setup that is part underpowered part overpowered.

I think keeping weapons distinct in what they do is a really important factor of the game. It’d be like if Axe MH on warrior had a bleed on its auto-attack. Think of fighting a MH axe warrior, now. You won’t really know what he’s building until you get hit. And that hit could be a 13k eviscerate, or it could just be some bleeds. So you need to take extra precaution, and it makes combat more stand-off-ish and slower to escalate.

I get that people might want to have a melee condi weapon on the thief, and there shouldn’t be anything from stopping that, but I just don’t believe fundamentally changing the dagger to accommodate for other build types is a good idea.

I figured just leave the bleeds because if it’s spammed like FS on S/D, the thief will be out of initiative in 4 seconds and most classes have a way to clear condis decently fast while we lack the variety to mantain cover conditions. Also the fact that it’s an aimed skill means that for the opponent to take all the bleeds, the thief is very good, or he isn’t. Either way the skill difference would become apparent quickly.

Alsoñ while i don’t like hybrid or condi thief myself, if someone else likes that style of gameplay (specifically DB bleeds ) I’d rather not destroy their fun entirely.

evilapprentice is certainly correct about both poison and DB. Poison is equivalent to 2 stacks of bleed. It’s most likely going to get cleansed before it does any serious damage to anyone, but its strength lies in its ability to counter people’s sustain and recovery after burst. Damaging conditions either have a higher base or stack in intensity such as burning, bleeding, torment, and confusion. It’s very convenient that the base damage of poison (84) almost matches the base healing of regen while poisoned (~86), which is to say it’s mainly there to kill sustain.

Honestly you guys can keep saying that D/D is a hybrid (or condi), but it doesnt really have enough variety in it’s damaging conditions to be hybrid to make up for the loss in power. Look at the top cele classes that can make use of burning and bleeding, and then use sigil of doom to gain the advantage in prolonged fights. P/D is a decent hybrid/condi set, because it can constantly reapply steady damaging conditions, then put poison on top of it (when traited). Sure death blossom can burst long duration bleeds pretty well, but a single condi clear wipes out all the initiative spent building that. P/D can easily reapply the stack without having to expend initiative doing so, allowing them more flexibility to use their other weapon skills.

You can make up for D/D’s lack of damaging conditions with traits and runes, but you would honestly be more effective if you put that effort into bolstering a P/D build.

They don’t need to remove the bleeds from DB though if you guys think that would kill a spec you enjoy. Instead, just make it similar to warrior’s whirlwind attack (GS#3) so that it can be use better for evasion and has a skill shot on it for tactical repositioning. Keep the damage and the bleeds the same. Then it would have a purpose no mater what type of build you’re trying to use it in.

HtFde.3856:

Ario.8964:

Yolo Swaggins recently posted informing people about backstab and why it’s not as bad as they make it out to be. I’m here today to do the same with stealth. Hopefully I can give you all a different mindset to fighting and thinking about stealth on not only thief but any class that utilizes stealth. Wall of text incoming please do not post a reply unless you have read everything put here so you do not get the wrong idea about what I’m saying. Let’s begin:

1) The first thing we need to tackle is people’s idea that thief stealth (or stealth in general) is op.
The first thing I will say is flat out stealth is not op and here’s why:
Think of it this way: you get a thief low and he retreats to stealth to heal and reset a bit, who has the advantage? The quick answer would be to say the thief but the truth of the matter is you are the one with the advantages when a thief is in stealth. Yes he is healing in stealth, but while he’s doing that you can be healing too so that shouldn’t be a point of arguing stealth is op. You can do whatever the thief is doing in stealth outside of it.

Stopped reading right there … you might consider a career as spin-doctor for the Mafia.

(a) When a thief stealthes all NPCs stop attackign him (but for the oh-so-few channelled attacks). So if a thief fights you with NPCs around and goes to stealth the NPCs will concentrate on me as the thief is no longer available. That’s just such a minor issue when you are fighting with, say, 10 Skales around you as in Golanta.

(b) Merely going to stealth will heal the thief if traited so. All other classes – unless they have health regen – must use a heal skill which has a cooldown and can be interrupted by the thief because he can see you using the telltale healing skill animation. A thief, though, has multiple ways to enter stealth (unless runing S/P or P/P) and has a healing skill. The same as everyone … yeah, sure …

© Thieves, if traited so, can remove conditions when entering stealth. Now let’s remember how often a thief can stealth …

I am with you that stealth is not overpowered – but thieves are, because they have (a) the highest mobility, (b) one of the highest burst damage chains, © initiative rather than cooldown and (d) stealth available via multiple skills

It’s the combination that makes thieves ridiculously unbalanced. I’ll call them balanced when a thief will not engage in a 3:1 situation because he or she is pretty sure he or she will come out winner.

My thief was my 2nd char I leveled to 80 … but I wouldn’t cry if they reworked that class completely … it’s just broken.

A few things:

Many classes can trait to have secondary healing on skills or mechanics (meditations, mantras, full adrenaline, equipped kits, water attunement, life siphoning, and pet skill healing just to name all other classes)

Many classes can trait for passive condition removal without having to enter stealth.

Initiative is a global cooldown among all skills across both weapons

Is that a 3v1 in Unranked/Ranked PvP where people are actually sorted based on their approximate level of skill or 3v1 in open WvW where a thief can hit a group of people who just hit 80 on their first character.

I’ll give you high burst and mobility, but at the cost of defensive blocks and boons (limited brawler options).

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Maugetarr.6823:

Charr is my favorite of the 3 (4) thieves I have. I deleted my sylvari one because of his phrases and animations.

I changed my male sylvari to a girl that fixed that animation/phrase thing for me.

Yeah, I probably should have done that. He was my first thief and I regret not having him anymore. For that reason I won’t delete any more thieves though.

Johje Holan.4607:

[Prediction] Stealth if left unchanged will ruin Stronghold.

-snip-

You will have teams running around invisible. Bye bye spectator e-sports.

-snip-

Are they just going to chain shadow refuges until they get to the lord? Are there not going to be any doors in the way of getting to the lord room? Stealth is only a benefit in WvW roaming where you don’t have an objective you’re pursuing. In this game mode, you would think you’d have to leave stealth (or rather not gain it since there’s no passive permanent stealth) to accomplish intermediate goals at some point before the final battles in the lord rooms (or whatever the climax/victory conditions are). Stealth may keep a thief (or other class) alive in an encounter, but that doesn’t mean they are going to be helping push their team towards victory while in stealth.

Donut.6914:

Harnel.6810:

On the contrary – warriors have an assault rifle. Yes, it’s still a rifle, but the use is much, much different. When was the last time you saw a sniper do rapid-fire?

The main purpose of the rifle on the Warrior is to take out enemies with Killshot – a 1500 range burst attack. A fully buffed zerker sniper warrior in WvW can 1 hit pretty much any class in the game. It’s also possible to 1 hit multiple enemies with 1 Killshot since rifle shots can be traited to pierce. Most people want Thieves to get a sniper rifle which would function similarly. I get that you like the Sniper-Assassin aesthetic, I do too, but we’re only getting 1 new weapon with this expansion, and I would rather it not be the same thing as what’s already available in-game.

It was stated by people who asked questions at the after party (so take it with a grain of salt) that there are no new weapons. No idea if that means that current weapons have been re-purposed (like land-spears) or not, but supposedly there’s nothing new (yet).

cyyrix.6105:

Ok, I get it. Damage is a bad idea. That doesn’t mean you can’t do anything.

Let’s try an exercise…backstab now costs two initiative. In exchange, I’ll give you might, but only when you land backstab. How many stacks of might do you need to agree to the deal? If more than 25, then I’ll start giving you vigor, then regen, then swiftness and so on. There is a point at which you take the deal. If you claim that point would make you OP, then you would obviously be willing to take the trade at a lower amount, so there is guaranteed to be a point at which it is an even trade. This isn’t a hard concept.

At that point, you are punished for missing backstab (like every other burst skill in the game) but are properly compensated and rewarded for skilled play.

Honestly, there’s probably never going to be a breakover point where people would consider it useful unless the benefit were pretty OP. The autoattack chain total has a multiplier of 2.26 over a 2.02 second period for no initiative. That boils down to ~1.12 mult/sec. As a point of reference, a necromancer dagger autoattack chain has a total of 2.8 over a 2.1 second period, for a total of 1.3 mult/sec. In fact, a front stab only has the same multiplier as the last hit of the necro dagger chain. It’s logical to conclude that our damage (being a hard hitting glassy class) has been balance on removing it from the autos and putting it onto backstab, so the lack of initiative cost has already been balanced out through the other skills in the set. As a further example, consider the warrior’s axe auto. The whole chain together has a multiplier of 5 over 2.9 seconds. That’s 1.72 mult/sec. If you dodge the last hit on the triple chop (the hardest hitting part of it), the mult/sec drops to 1.2. Heck, even ele air Dagger auto has a 1.22 mult/second. The “free” cost of backstab has already been figured into our damage output. The burst from it is balanced out by our slightly lower output. If the thief is “spamming” it, thats more time off target thay they are not hitting. If it takes more than 2 seconds to land the hit, they’ve accomplished less than they would have by autoattacking their target.

So if we add an initiative cost of 2, for a D/P stealth attack, it would cost 11/12 base initiative. It would be better to save the initiative and shadowshot to them then autoattack.

Tldr: The damage of the “free” backstab has been taken into account through the other attack skills.

This is from a perspective of someone using D/D mainly against mesmers.

Depending on the mesmer’s skill, it’ll usually go either way really quickly at least against a lockdown or shatter build. With condi ones, I’ll usually CnD off a clone, and then just wait out the scepter block and then CnD of of them.

As WildKat mentioned, the really good ones just react to your moves and punish attempts at offense. If the thief is D/P, you need to keep a clone between you and the thief so that shadowshot will hit that instead. If you get hit by the projectile from black powder, you need to clear that quickly with greatsword auto and be ready to use an interrupt when they heartseeker through the field. They’ll be out a bunch of initiative and decently vulnerable. Try to bait out shadowstep (and the return) before you commit to a burst. If they do get into stealth, there’s multiple things you can do depending on your build.

If you have mainhand sword, you can blurred frenzy and then dodge after it finishes if you see the “evade” phase pop up. The objective is to make them backstab a clone with deceptive evasion, revealing themselves in the process.

The offhand sword block deals a decent amount of damage back to the thief and spawns a clone as well for them to hopefully hit(but you should still dodge after the skill finishes).

Against offhand dagger thieves, try not to leave clones up or else they’ll just run around CnDing off of them until they get an opportune moment to strike.

cyyrix.6105:

Maugetarr.6823:

cyyrix.6105:

Maugetarr.6823:

Considering he used a 30 second CD, the tradeoff seems fair. Actually if you hadn’t used your sword skill and dodged instead after the sigil gave you the endurance back, you would have revealed the thief when the backstab hit your clone and been able to burst him down using IL, swap, blurred frenzy, and mind wrack.

Waste more CDs trying to burst down a thief that just used consume plasma? Good joke.

The thief’s 30s CD heal isn’t what baited my CDs. It was the threat of a high damage skill being spammed four consecutive times. The thief can spam four backstabs way more than every 30s. Calling that a fair tradeoff is absurd.

Backstab’s spammy mechanic encourages unskillful play. Making it cost initiative (and then maybe increase the damage to compensate) would be a major improvement.

Well, in the current meta, a fair number of mesmers take shattered concentration, so most of the boons remaining would have been ripped (if you had that as well). You also had mantra of distraction, so whether he was D/P or D/D, you had the skills on your bar to stop him from stealthing. Even if he had dropped shadow refuge, you had illusionary wave off cooldown. You had means available to counter all of his stealthing attempts, save blinding powder.

You’re really missing the point here. I’m not complaining about killing thieves. I’m not asking for a nerf. I’m certainly not looking for advice on how to play mesmer.

I’m suggesting a rework that would make good thieves better (higher damage from backstab) in exchange for making bad thieves worse (wasted initiative spamming backstab on blinds/aegis/evades). It would encourage skillful play for everyone.

I think you’re missing my point. There is already a lot of counterplay to prevent the thief from getting into stealth. Once he’s in stealth, you have to survive 3(4) seconds due to your failure to counterplay. You are asking for a nerf.

Here’s a little more talk about your idea though. Adding more damage to it as compensation would make it a more overwhelming skill than most people except those who are used to PvP can handle. BS is already a 6.5-8k hit in sPvP and 8-11k in WvW depending on your (or rather both players’) build(s). They nerfed mug’s damage because people couldn’t handle that output (subjectively). Right now, BS is a 2.4 multiplier from the back, and 1.2 from the front. Upping it to 2.6 or 2.7 would cause more complaints, regardless of the fact that it would cost initiative.

Charr is my favorite of the 3 (4) thieves I have. I deleted my sylvari one because of his phrases and animations.

cyyrix.6105:

Maugetarr.6823:

Considering he used a 30 second CD, the tradeoff seems fair. Actually if you hadn’t used your sword skill and dodged instead after the sigil gave you the endurance back, you would have revealed the thief when the backstab hit your clone and been able to burst him down using IL, swap, blurred frenzy, and mind wrack.

Waste more CDs trying to burst down a thief that just used consume plasma? Good joke.

The thief’s 30s CD heal isn’t what baited my CDs. It was the threat of a high damage skill being spammed four consecutive times. The thief can spam four backstabs way more than every 30s. Calling that a fair tradeoff is absurd.

Backstab’s spammy mechanic encourages unskillful play. Making it cost initiative (and then maybe increase the damage to compensate) would be a major improvement.

Well, in the current meta, a fair number of mesmers take shattered concentration, so most of the boons remaining would have been ripped (if you had that as well). You also had mantra of distraction, so whether he was D/P or D/D, you had the skills on your bar to stop him from stealthing. Even if he had dropped shadow refuge, you had illusionary wave off cooldown. You had means available to counter all of his stealthing attempts, save blinding powder.

cyyrix.6105:

DeceiverX.8361:

So basically then when a guard’s passive aegis pops during CnD and then he pops it again during stab, the thief should be left with 0 initiative and out of stealth after two tries. So no skill use and no damage left. Do that and I’d demand for all other classes to see their cooldowns to not tick down while auto-attacking or using other skills. That’s basically what you’ve asked to happen.

No, that’s not at all a good idea. Maybe the guard should be less braindead and dodge when the aegis gets popped a second time, or any other class not be stupid and dodge roll to make all of the stab attempts fail to begin with.

That is, unless you want to put skills like CnD on a 4 initiative cost, but then D/P would still be overpowered and Shadow Arts/stealth builds would be even stronger than they currently are.

So no.

Heard that one before. The solution is to move backstab off of the 1 slot (up to f2) and give thieves a stealth auto-attack to clear aegis/blinds. I agree that it’s a peculiar situation, though.

Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8miLGjlQEUo

I’m forced to spend a 12s CD and two dodge rolls just to prevent all 4 backstab attempts. It’s really broken that a thief can bait that many high-value CDs without spending a single point of initiative.

Considering he used a 30 second CD, the tradeoff seems fair. Actually if you hadn’t used your sword skill and dodged instead after the sigil gave you the endurance back, you would have revealed the thief when the backstab hit your clone and been able to burst him down using IL, swap, blurred frenzy, and mind wrack.

I’m also hoping that they made spears usable on land and didn’t count it as a “new” since they already have a large selection of skins.

D/D thief is my favorite spvp build

oscuro.9720:

I got an idea! We should get a signet that allows parry. Parry should be a new mechanic acess able to only thieves. How it works:
Every 3rd hit you take is 25% damage and non critical. When parrying an attack, you deal 300 range damage on up to 5 foes in front of you. Gives a bit of extra dps and sustain out of stealth
On use, knockback foes with a 160 radius, and gain stability & protection for 5 seconds

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Flashing_Blades

Since we have virtually no information on this new mode, what if it’s a game type that allows for 15v15, but encourages them to split up into smaller groups. Consider the new world boss in the silver wastes: there are 3 lanes that different groups have to split into to beat different champions with different mechanics. Now in this stronghold game mode, sure you might be able to zerg the middle with the whole team, but there might be mechanics that make that tactically stupid (Like sending all 5 to mid in spvp). Before we keep arguing about speculation, maybe we should wait for information.

Consider the following also, what if you could change the size of the match based upon an agreement between guild leaders before the match.

(Pretty much what methane gas was saying earlier)

DeceiverX.8361:

Zero Day.2594:

So, someone pointed out something interesting on the PvP forums.
We don’t know if specs, and what the add onto the class, will be carried into PvP/WvW/outside of the jungle…

If it’s PvE only, and can’t be carried outside of the jungle… then I could careless.

Otherwise, I hope it’s not a trap skill… because if you look at the elites, they’re missing a trap skill… but I don’t think many like traps… But this is ANet making the skills, and they do have a venom and trap fetish… so… yeah…

That said, new elites could contain signets, which currently no classes have on an elite aside from warrior.

It could also be a deception. Only one elite of ours has a category. I mean, you could consider Dagger storm a trick, and Thieves’ guild a Trap I guess, but they aren’t technically either.

This is interesting, but sort of like reading your horoscope. You read it and find a connection with yourself as someone would do with a cold reading from a “psychic”.

Charr thieves are pretty fun. Not that you probably use it that much, but they have this racial skill that fits decently with thieves.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Pistol

5/0/0/3/6 is my favorite build. I use D/D with it mainly. The added vigor on top of feline grace makes up for D/D’s deficiencies.

Sagat.3285:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sagat.3285:

Maugetarr.6823:

No one thinks they might throw support thief a bone? Like maybe a staff thief (a caster, not melee thief). Think about the fact that 1 of the 2 specializations they mentioned was a druid for rangers, effectively making a fighter class into a caster class.

Spear fighting thief might also be a thing(a bruiser thief like others have mentioned ) if the trailer is indicative of anything.

Afaik, we don’t know how many specializations there are going to be per class, but I would think it would be at least 2 per because it would be dumb to only be able to specialize into one thing.

Also, they might have enough specializations to cover the “play how you want” phrasing with support, tank, and dps specializations on each class (that might be wishful thinking)

Nah they love venom thief.. and since the name,utilities,traits and mechanic change it wouldn’t be thief like. Ranger didn’t had caster vibe to it but Nature Magic does so they added druid but we are not sure how many they are. Rifle thief(critical strikes) is more likely if they want something fresh or staff(acrobatics)/torch(deadly arts) even if they aren’t related to trait lines caster staff has no place how did you even came up with that lol?

Trinity is pointless in the game and I hate it, we need content that rewards different spec not a dps race like most of the pve encourages.

Caster came to mind because thief and mesmer both use denial magic. Thief is a lot more melee, and mesmer a lot more caster centric. From what I’ve heard, ( haven’t hadtime to watch the whole thing yet) there was a mesmer with a shield, so maybe we can expect some blurring of lines.
PS they brought in a whole new AI person semi recently and given some of the creatures and fights recently, there is a slight trend away from pure DPS.

The mesmers are expecting chronomamcer but the content has to support it and we are not forced to it. Staff caster… using shadow waves maybe I don’t know didn’t manage to came up with related ones for SA or Trickery so I’ll play the waiting game.

Maybe a Shadowcaster? :P

Sagat.3285:

Maugetarr.6823:

No one thinks they might throw support thief a bone? Like maybe a staff thief (a caster, not melee thief). Think about the fact that 1 of the 2 specializations they mentioned was a druid for rangers, effectively making a fighter class into a caster class.

Spear fighting thief might also be a thing(a bruiser thief like others have mentioned ) if the trailer is indicative of anything.

Afaik, we don’t know how many specializations there are going to be per class, but I would think it would be at least 2 per because it would be dumb to only be able to specialize into one thing.

Also, they might have enough specializations to cover the “play how you want” phrasing with support, tank, and dps specializations on each class (that might be wishful thinking)

Nah they love venom thief.. and since the name,utilities,traits and mechanic change it wouldn’t be thief like. Ranger didn’t had caster vibe to it but Nature Magic does so they added druid but we are not sure how many they are. Rifle thief(critical strikes) is more likely if they want something fresh or staff(acrobatics)/torch(deadly arts) even if they aren’t related to trait lines caster staff has no place how did you even came up with that lol?

Trinity is pointless in the game and I hate it, we need content that rewards different spec not a dps race like most of the pve encourages.

Caster came to mind because thief and mesmer both use denial magic. Thief is a lot more melee, and mesmer a lot more caster centric. From what I’ve heard, ( haven’t hadtime to watch the whole thing yet) there was a mesmer with a shield, so maybe we can expect some blurring of lines.
PS: they brought in a whole new AI person semi recently and given some of the creatures and fights recently, there is a slight trend away from pure DPS.

No one thinks they might throw support thief a bone? Like maybe a staff thief (a caster, not melee thief). Think about the fact that 1 of the 2 specializations they mentioned was a druid for rangers, effectively making a fighter class into a caster class.

Spear fighting thief might also be a thing(a bruiser thief like others have mentioned ) if the trailer is indicative of anything.

Afaik, we don’t know how many specializations there are going to be per class, but I would think it would be at least 2 per because it would be dumb to only be able to specialize into one thing.

Also, they might have enough specializations to cover the “play how you want” phrasing with support, control, and dps specializations on each class (that might be wishful thinking)

Edit: Just to expand on what I think(hope) might happen

There would be 3 specializations per class: Control, Support, DPS
Each specialization could still use our basic setups like the current traits and weapons we have now, but would gain different things based on their specialization.

Examples (again, pure speculation and wishful thinking):

Support: Gets staff and Scepter and is a mage like class(caster)
Control:Get’s a polearm/spear, a mace, OH sword, and longbow (brawler)
DPS: Gets an Axe, Greatsword, and Rifle (Assassin)

By splitting up classes like this since the base classes are pretty decently balanced right now (especially with the might stack nerfing coming up), they could balance each specialization individually.

This would also bring them closer to all weapons for all classes like they said they wanted to do near the beginning.

They should just make it affect weakness duration as well. It would mesh nicely with lotus poison then.

As far as I can tell, the evade occurs as you start moving. This comes from a perspective of someone who play ele as a primary alt, and a thief main. You used to be able to interrupt burning speed with steal (if you were traited to do so), now it ports you right into where the the explosion damage occurs with an “evade” message. This was a hard habit to break using steal as a defense if you got hit by updraft.

Gulesave.5073:

Einlanzer.1627:

Seabreeze.8437:

Gulesave.5073:

I definitely like the idea of increasing the rate of fire on the auto-attack when the offhand is also a pistol.

But will Anet really give auto-attack its own properties and attack speed when you have a pistol in your offhand? It’s not like they’ve ever done it to any other weapon sets…

Everyone screams about how much it will imbalance P/D to just give the autoattack a straight buff, but I’m not really convinced it’s much of a problem. P/D gets its damage from so many sources that a modest buff to Vital Shot alone would have a much bigger impact on P/P than it would on P/D.

Still, if they’re that concerned about it, they can buff only the direct damage part of it instead of the overall rate of fire.

Or, just build proper stealth into the P/P build – that’s a decent buff to the autoattack, right there. It could be a secondary activation on Black Powder, maybe: “Disperse your smoke cloud to stealth yourself for 1.5 seconds.” That’s just enough time to pop off a Sneak Attack.

As an added benefit, this would give P/P wielders a use for the stealth-related minor traits they can’t currently use, but often have to take regardless.

A long while ago when people were complaining (more) about "perma-stealth " thieves, i suggested that they change the smoke field to a dark field, and that the projectile grant stealth on successful hit (Like ranger LB 3). This would allow D/P to be affected by meld with shadows, but not to be able to stack stealth, and force them to engage the target to stealth. This would also have allowed P/P to function as a more cohesive set and have an opportunity cost similar to shortbow. Also S/P would have had access to stealth as well as an ability that was more differentiated from Pistol Whip.

The best part about that was that the dark field would have set up lifesteal combos very well with sneak attack and Unload, allowing for more sustain and damage without having to buff the autoattack.

Devourer venom is great in both power and condition builds. A 4-5 second immobilize is often enough to finish people off.

If you’re going D/P + SB, huntsman is also a good choice because you’ll get your offhand and swap from it. If you plan to go D/D or S/D at any point, weaposmith is also good (but you can throw that on an alt warrior or something similar).

Justin ODell.9517:

Maugetarr.6823:

That’s an interesting way to display the differences. At first I thought the MAMM was dragging the team up too much before realizing the scales on the y and x axis were slightly different to emphasize the curves of the lines. It’s cool that the geometric mean has a little more volitility when all of players are around the same skill levels while the MAMM has more volitility in the higher differences.

Could you maybe apply the geometric one to people queuing solo to limit their highest value while applying the MAMM to premades to account for the communication between higher and lower mmr people in the premade?

They shouldn’t be at different scales. Here is one with them overlayed.

What I meant about the scales is that the Y axis had a difference of 700 while the X axis had a difference of 2000. The overlay is a nice presentation.

Justin ODell.9517:

I threw together these three plots of the three most interesting ways of getting the mean of a team. The geometric mean, the (regular) arithmetic mean, and the mass average.

Y is the adjusted mean of the team, X is the 5th member on a range from 1000 to 3000.

Hopefully this gives you a better idea how each type works.

That’s an interesting way to display the differences. At first I thought the MAMM was dragging the team up too much before realizing the scales on the y and x axis were slightly different to emphasize the curves of the lines. It’s cool that the geometric mean has a little more volitility when all of players are around the same skill levels while the MAMM has more volitility in the higher differences.

Could you maybe apply the geometric one to people queuing solo to limit their highest value while applying the MAMM to premades to account for the communication between higher and lower mmr people in the premade?