Guild Wars 2

alchemyst.2165:

Maugetarr.6823:

I’d like assassin’s equilibrium to grant 1 second of stability at the beginning of a dodge roll. Optionally it could also increase the movement distance of the dodge roll by 50% (making it 450). This would allow for better repositioning and be useful against wards /walls.

SoA doesn’t need the endurance regen bumped down, but it certainly could use the number of conditions removed bumped up by 1.

DB doesn’t need the bleeds changed, but it definitely needs a rework of the pre/post cast and the evade frames.

DD could definitely use a projectile speed buff.

The rest I’m neutral on or don’t think they need a change.

I like your assassin’s equilibrium idea. With SoA I feel that full endurance regen and 2 condis would be a bit much, and would put S/D Acro thieves too over the top, which is why I suggested bumping it down to 50%. But anything can be tested, of course, and it’s ultimately Anet’s decision.

The reason I suggested DB change for vuln instead of bleed is because it’s the only condi ability in a full power set. There are clues, however, that D/D should be hybrid, but we currently do not have the proper capabilities to be a viable hybrid. Celestial might work, but our overall damage output would be better if we just stuck to power or condi. So if it were to stay as bleeds, we would need better hybrid capabilities.

On S/D, it might be a little bit over the top, but S/D already has plenty of evades and condi cleanses, but I wouldn’t recommend limiting SoA because of one weapon set. I use it on D/D which neither has access to good weapon evades or condi clears which it would be quite balanced on, especially compared to similar signets
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Stamina
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Renewal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague_Signet

Yes those above have different upsides and downsides, but they affect all conditions on activation, so balancing SoA around 2 condis and a full endurance bar (which probably won’t line up most of the time) doesn’t seem too far out of line.

I don’t think D/D is meant to be a hybrid because the non-condi skills don’t have high enough coefficients. Poison is a utility condition to kill healing and that’s the only other damaging condition on the setup. We should just leave bleeds on the skill for the people still using LDB unicorn builds. The utility of the evades should make it strong enough to be used in a power set.

I’d like assassin’s equilibrium to grant 1 second of stability at the beginning of a dodge roll. Optionally it could also increase the movement distance of the dodge roll by 50% (making it 450). This would allow for better repositioning and be useful against wards /walls.

SoA doesn’t need the endurance regen bumped down, but it certainly could use the number of conditions removed bumped up by 1.

DB doesn’t need the bleeds changed, but it definitely needs a rework of the pre/post cast and the evade frames.

DD could definitely use a projectile speed buff.

The rest I’m neutral on or don’t think they need a change.

Emilie.8193:

Switched to Carapace + Falconer’s chest. I want to replace the chest with Heart of Koda but don’t have enough tokens at the moment.

I used HotW armor for a long time and it’s one of my favorites. Hot join while on a dungeon track makes it pretty easy to get armor and you won’t have to grind the underwater bosses like I did. …

Tao.5096:

Okay. Remove Feline Grace.
Give 3 seconds Protection Boon upon dodge roll.

We’re not rangers :

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Companion%27s_Defense

You were hit by a glass cannon with a guard supplying the might stacks

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAoalsMp0plPx7J8PNRLBtdHi+H87M6+gAA-T1BEABGcCAYS53iq/0megc2fAgHAwWKBJFggKjA-w

Well if they’re spamming dodges in a fight, they’re most likely going to get the endurance back anyway as they avoid an autoattack. The result will be the same. If dodges are truly being spammed, they won’t have the endurance to dodge the big attacks, just as they wouldn’t before.

This would however affect using dodges to reposition which is one of the benefits of traiting D/D into acrobatics

I just have a quick question/comment. It seems that fights are often over fast enough that you aren’t really benefitting from IP a lot of the time, and notably during the fight against the 2 mesmers, 1 of them would have been down much more quickly with executioner as he sat at a sliver of health for a while. Do you find the added sustain from IP is worth giving up that damage boost?

Well, I like the downed state in this game, and I don’t really mind this skill. Yeah it’s not a group knockback or anything fancy, but preventing the second stomp attempt is pretty nice. Sometimes you get a rally after that instead of becoming a rally for the other team.

Pretty much what the others have said. Thief has high single target DPS in PvE and some unique things it can bring to dungeon runs like group stealthing past mobs. It really depends on what you want to do. For pugging stuff, I usually bring my ele because of the might and fury stacks as well as the support if the group has to carry someone. If the group is already good on might/fury, I bring my thief.

In PvP, they’re pretty good for decapping and assisting teammates by spiking down someone who’s focused on your teammates. Due to the burst not being 100-0 in nothing in PvP, the thief plays as more of a finisher by sitting off to the side, then spiking the player your teammates call. It’s not that you can’t take anyone down with enough practice with the thief in PvP, but if they survive the initial burst, the fight usually drags on and your time would be better spent elsewhere.

Depending on the size of the zerg, thieves “can” help, but their function is limited to picking off stragglers. They don’t have the armor/stability /protection to run through the center usually. The smaller the encounter, the more effective the thief will be.

swinsk.6410:

Wvw or spvp ? Try 602006. Panic strike with devourer. Watch your enemies go “wtf?!???” When they eat a 10s immob…

(When I use panic strike) I like to split the usage of the 2, letting PS proc, trying to interrupt the clear, and then applying DV if they clear or the PS immob runs out.

Gizmo.9178:

Those are all some really neat outfits! I just want to say that I am totally aware of the many trenchcoats and things when it comes to medium armor fashion BUT as I have stated earlier, it is mostly just thieves who wear the same or similar style. Engies and rangers do have a common theme too but I rarely see them wearing similar armor unless it is the default 80 exotic medium armor and even that is not as common anymore :P

I think a lot of thieves are looking for a style that says “assassin” though, and a lot of the available armor just doesn’t fit that bill. Engineers and rangers sort of fit the long trenchcoat style while thieves need something that won’t interfere with their acrobatic antics. Human T3 is “assassin’s” armor which makes it the obvious choice. “Sneak thief” with it’s throwing star shoes and tight fitting cut is also an obvious choice. There’s just not many choices that really say “thief” because of thier bulky design.

HotW and Heritage armor also make decent thief outfits.

The glorious armor looks pretty decent for thief on almost all the races if you don’t like trench coats/capes.

Chicago Jack pretty much hit the nail on the head with all the classes.

With power rangers, I make sure I save my steal for after they hit me with their bow knockback (point blank shot) because they’ll usually follow up with rapid fire. Save a stunbreak for the wolf fear also. Fire a shadow shot into the sword block it blinds and the knockback misses. Against condi bunker rangers, steal ASAP making sure they don’t dodge it, then try to fight them in the water field as it removes the condis, but honestly, good luck with that. High poison uptime is also key with them.

Not bad. One piece of constructive criticism/advice I have is just based on the second game when you’re chasing down the ele after it cuts from a fight with the guard. It looks like you’ve just stolen from him and BV is still unused, then he pops armor of earth while running away. Sometimes, if you open on an ele with BV and spike them instead, you can force AoE early and then steal into it and rip the stability (sometimes interrupting Ether renewal if that’s the heal they’re using). It puts eles into a hard position pretty quickly.

Pretty decent otherwise.

First of all, steal is blockable.

Point blank shot is more cc than traited steal is on a shorter CD (half is untraited steal, and still 6 seconds shorter than traited steal when PBS is untraited).

But honestly, let’s look at what traited steal can do based on the popular 6/0/2/0/6 D/P:

13 seconds poison. Huge, right? Except that thief is intended to have high poison uptime due to the lack of varied conditions. It’s supposed to help wear down the opponent in an extended fight. In fact there’s 5 seconds of poison on this builds’ auto attack chain.

Mug. 2k (ish) damage and 2k(ish) heal. It cannot crit. Honestly, it’s like adding a single auto attack (not even the chain). The heal is minor compared to the heals attached to other skills/attunment swaps in the game. If you look at the amount of heath avered over steal’s cooldown, it’s about 94 hps. That’s 40 hps under the base of regen.

(No one is taking stealth on steal)

Thrill of the crime. Gain 1 stack of might, fury, and swiftness. Great! A way to get the boons often attached to other classes’ weapon skills/swaps.

Gain 2 initiative. 2/3 of a single heatseeker. +less than 0.1 initiative per second.

Bountiful theft. Remove 2 boons from the target, copy those boons for 5 seconds to nearby allies. Steal is finally starting to live up to it’s name. One of our few team support abilities.

Finally, 1 second of daze. 1 second of single target daze.

It only took about 6 traits to make this skill into something useful.

Comparing classes in a vacuum is often pointless, but most of the abilities mentioned are either available in the base class mechanic of other classes or can be traited by those other classes as well. Ele is a decent comparison into augmenting your class mechanic. Traited group healing on an attunment, traited group boons on swap, fury on swap, traited group condi cleanse and burst heal on swap. Honestly it’s just as powerful as the thief traited stuff, but it’s a little more broken up into separate steps. There are more comparisons that could be made with mesmers and other classes, bult if ele didn’t sway you, the others won’t either.

If you want to complain about something, complain that thief lacks more “F#” abilities to tie traits to, and the 1 that they do have is relatively weak when untraited.

Reaven.3958:

Maugetarr.6823:

The armor you get from the glorious track in PvP has no trench coat on it, so there’s a cheap way to get a skin without one. I got tired enough with trench coats also that all of my thieves are wearing glorious armor right now….

Yeah, that’s always nice, but it’s like one set out of 30-40? Diversity, c’mon!

Yeah, thats very true. You can choose different helms/shoulders/gloves/pants/boots at least. So far as I know though, there’s no other chest piece that doesn’t have some sort of trench coat or long coat tail.

Zero Day.2594:

I mostly see the class I get owned by, because I’m but* hurt… QQ

^^^

I noticed that no necromancer things made it on your list. You wouldn’t happen to be the terrormancer that complained my D/D thief had too many “invulns” tonight, would you?

The armor you get from the glorious track in PvP has no trench coat on it, so there’s a cheap way to get a skin without one. I got tired enough with trench coats also that all of my thieves are wearing glorious armor right now….

Narkodx.1472:

-snip-

D/D is trash folks.. its gone the way of the dinosaur and only stubborn thieves who still think underbewb + dual incinerators = proleetmlg420noscope

-snip-

I think this was aimed at the video you linked atti!

Rule of thumb is if you could run to the point without having to jump at any point, you can likely shadowstep to it. There are exceptions due to pathing issues with some terrain. Keep/tower stairs are a definite exception; to the best of my knowledge, there are no sets of stairs (the ones that get you to the tops of walls) that you can shadowstep up.

Bella Kim.4061:

@ Maugetarr.6823
thank you for explaining your novice tactics
but I am already way over that level of play
I am mid to high level where I can trick you to waste skills and evades
and I hit you with what I really wanted to hit you with
I can play with your mind and I can make you waste your combos
I always save at least 1 interrupt and I never let you use your healing skill
dueling is never a problem
because I can beat most of you in 1 vs 1 dueling rooms
my problem is that thieves have ability to disengage from a fight at will
because I can never killl a one single noob thief that decides to run
in WvW, Borderlands Bloodlust Finisher plays a huge part
if they stealth and run away 10 times they save 10 points
and it is same as saving a Tower

Oh, well then I guess I am of no help to you. Go ahead and keep making suggestions to have a class that you already have no problems dealing with nerfed because they run away too well. My mistake in thinking you wanted help rather than just wanting an easier time collecting loot bags.

I’ve been having success with D/D in mid level tpvp and hotjoin. I ran across swinsk the other day and killed him a couple of times (he killed me more than I killed him to be fair), but it’s great for picking thieves off of other teammates, or bursting people down as they try to take a point from a bunker. As mango said, pretty decent with 6 in trickery.

Bella Kim.4061:

@ Narkodx.1472
I play Triple Kit Condi Engineer and it is not kittenous build
I have 4 different weapon skill sets ( 1 main + 3 kits )
each set has 5 different weapon skills
which means I had to study and practice and utilize 20 different weapon skills
I have to precisely execute 20 different weapon skills at the right timing
some of them have long cooldowns so I cannot just mindlessly blow skills
and also I must keep track of cooldowns of 16 different weapon skills ( #1 = no cooldown
not only this I must utilize 4 different toolbelt skills
and supply crate cast time is not instant
this makes stunning multiple targets without getting interrupted very challenging
Ive never played thief but I think I know what Dagger Pistol thieves do
5 – 2 – 2 – 2 – 2 — 1 – 1 – 2 — 5 – 2 – 2 – 2 – 2 — 1 – 1 – 2 — 5 – 2 – 2 – 2 – 2
and I think I know what Pistol Dagger thieves do
F1 – 5 – 1 – 1 – 5 – 1 – 1 – 5 – 1 – 1 – 5 – 1 – 1 – 5 – 1 – 1 – 5 – 5 – 5 – 5 – 5
these dire thieves pressing only 2 number keys fighting toe to toe with my 3 Kit Engi
just ridiculous

Then you don’t really know whats going on if thats what you think is going on. If P/D were doing that, a dodge would stop it the CnD. Or if you can’t dodge, there’s static shield or gear shield. If you still get hit by CnD, you have magnetic shield to reflect the Sneak Attack.

Apparently you aren’t interrupting the D/P combo either. I would recommend doing that. An engi is one of the most capable of taking on thieves with the ample soft and hard cc. Sorry that the thief has a limited palate of global cooldowns compared to the 20+ different skills you have the flexibility of using against them.

I guess I’ll bite this time.

1) The way you’ve explained this already exists. If you swing your weapon like a bat, your character does “feel” the thief. Your auto attacks will roll over as you hit. If you start a channeled attack such as volley or rapid fire before the thief stealths, it will track/point out the thief through the entire attack. Some skills do not point out the thief during the channel even though they are hitting such as mesmers’ confusing images.

2) Right? Except magic. A thief is not just hiding in such a way that you somehow can’t see them. Logically (if we assume magic as logical) whatever he applied his magic to (other players, blood, etc) should also be invisible. Since something burning is simply converting one state of matter to another, the particles would also be invisible. Those arguments aside, from a gameplay standpoint, this makes stealthing virtually impossible as burning and bleeding are often applied by autoattacks and random procs, meaning the thief would be revealed for the entire fight.

3) Sure pets might be able to smell that someone is there, but smelling someone and breaking someone’s magical spell are 2 different things. Again, revealed the entire fightwith no effort by the revealing class.

4) Possibly the closest to a reasonable point, then again holding up a shield, magical or physical, in front of you should not block a hit from behind you. If you want to go to the same fighting in the dark type of logic, if someone punches you in the dark, you can make a reasonable guess as to where they are even if you cant see them. This would be exactly how it currently works with the “block” message that pops up.

5) To better understand these mechanics, you should play a thief, or watch some videos of gameplay, especially thief vs thief fights to see how they react and move when fighting each other.

yski.7642:

Maugetarr.6823:

D/D, full glass (or close to it) + SB and no stealth utilities. Pretty challenging to stay alive.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl0Mp0pFOxrJ8PNRLh4972z19Rg++C-TVSBwAPOEAmVCG5IAcT9HsK/Iu/Ae9BLeAAAOBABAQAuZb2m3MgbezjezjezSBIoyI-w

Ahem, this is how you do full glass.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl8MpxpFOxzJ8PNRLRtdIMCfgXnh2PQAEiA-T1BEABGcGAYa/R5Xb6DA4QAQwDAIR1f2SJYAAEgb2mt5NDcezbezbezzv9tv9tv9NpAiYYF-w

Ancient video, really should make a new one at some point, but enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9d4Og8KbEM&list=UUA7Mu3BNpy2CXIxFlExyRXQ

Haha, yes. That’s the wiggle room for “close to it.” It really doesn’t get glassier than your link though.

And make more.

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

How is it not focused on dealing damage?

No damage related Grandmaster trait. I don’t really get why you chose the exposed weakness when you aren’t really dealing condition damage. But since you’re using venoms, why didn’t you chose residual venom? You can switch from feline grace to Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew if you want the extra dodge and can put the one point into a Grandmaster trait = more power and a more useful trait.
But alas, that’s just my opinion and maybe you can make this build work but I’m pretty sure that it needs a pro.

Good questions:

1) The 10% damage takes effect with any condition, and modifies damage, not condition damage, so it’s almost always active.

2) I find that the duration of venoms and the way they work render residual venoms useless. With DV at 5 seconds of immob, people usually either clear it (meaning all the stacks) or they die. The way BV works, 2 stacks is usually meaningless.

3) Feline grace is better for burst dodging when you get put into a rough spot, especially combined with SoA because you also get 3 dodges after the use instead of 2 and faster refill. If I were to switch that though, I would use panic strike for more immob. Using feline grace though lets you use this in PvP as well where you don’t have food.

1) Yeah, that was what I meant. I understood that the target gets “more vulnerable” when it has got a condition, I just don’t see that many conditions in a D/D build, even with venoms. I just wondered why you didn’t get a master trait in the acrobatics line instead (or a grandmaster in the power line). (see 3))

2) You miss out on 50 extra power by not using the full line and don’t have a grandmaster trait.
Having a hard time with the abbreviations, so I guess I can’t say anything to that until I’ve looked them up

3) The OP asked for wvw roaming advise, for pvp you’re of course right, food is useless there. But I didn’t know that this build was meant for pvp which is kind of different from wvw roaming.

1)13 seconds of poison on steal, 5 seconds of poison on AA chain, 5 seconds of weakness on poison, 6ish seconds of vuln on CnD, and if you accidently hit 3 or 4, 12 seconds of bleed and 3 seconds of cripple respectively. On D/D, the only attack that doesn’t have a condition tied to it is HS. Devourer venom also triggers the trait.

2) Devourer Venom (immob), Basilisk Venom (stun). Edit: You also end up with a net gain of power in this build because I am using power food (additional 100 power) with the feline grace as opposed to taking the Stew (no additional power from food, additional 50 from trait points). None of the grandmaster traits (except maybe revealed training) warrants the loss of feline grace combined with the vigor uptime (imo).

3) I have used this build for both. OP did not mention finishing leveling to 80 yet, but can always take this into hotjoin to give it a whirl in the learning process or before they shell out money for gear.

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

How is it not focused on dealing damage?

No damage related Grandmaster trait. I don’t really get why you chose the exposed weakness when you aren’t really dealing condition damage. But since you’re using venoms, why didn’t you chose residual venom? You can switch from feline grace to Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew if you want the extra dodge and can put the one point into a Grandmaster trait = more power and a more useful trait.
But alas, that’s just my opinion and maybe you can make this build work but I’m pretty sure that it needs a pro.

Good questions:

1) The 10% damage takes effect with any condition, and modifies damage, not condition damage, so it’s almost always active.

2) I find that the duration of venoms and the way they work render residual venoms useless. With DV at 5 seconds of immob, people usually either clear it (meaning all the stacks) or they die. The way BV works, 2 stacks is usually meaningless.

3) Feline grace is better for burst dodging when you get put into a rough spot, especially combined with SoA because you also get 3 dodges after the use instead of 2 and faster refill. If I were to switch that though, I would use panic strike for more immob. Using feline grace though lets you use this in PvP as well where you don’t have food.

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

D/D, full glass (or close to it) + SB and no stealth utilities. Pretty challenging to stay alive.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl0Mp0pFOxrJ8PNRLh4972z19Rg++C-TVSBwAPOEAmVCG5IAcT9HsK/Iu/Ae9BLeAAAOBABAQAuZb2m3MgbezjezjezSBIoyI-w

I wonder why… that build is focussed on dodging not dealing damage.

How is it not focused on dealing damage?

D/D, full glass (or close to it) + SB and no stealth utilities. Pretty challenging to stay alive.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl0Mp0pFOxrJ8PNRLh4972z19Rg++C-TVSBwAPOEAmVCG5IAcT9HsK/Iu/Ae9BLeAAAOBABAQAuZb2m3MgbezjezjezSBIoyI-w

Well, I’m for increasing reliability without increasing power as there are a bunch of things that simply don’t hit when they should. Instead of a teleport though, the idea of using an animation closer to swoop or leap of faith would make more sense. This is not saying a blind or evade should be added, or the range should be increased; this is just saying that when the button is pressed and the skill is not dodged, blocked, or blinded (etc), it should connect. This isn’t just a problem with bull’s charge though, it’s a problem with a number of movement skills.

Zero Day.2594:

Originally by: Sensotix.4106

What: Steal
Why: Summary of steal when using the current thief build (30 0 10 0 30)
1) 1.244 dmg (usually more)
2) 2 boons stolen (priority on stability)
3) giving these boons to you and nearby allies in a radius of 240
4) grants vigor for 10 seconds
5) grants you and allies in a radius of 360 fury for around 10 sec
6) grants you and allies in a radius of 360 swiftness for around 10 sec (and 1 might stack)
7) heals you for 2.040
8) puts poison on the enemy for 13 seconds
9) dazes the target (which goes through stab because its first priority on boons removed)
10) when using the current backstab build with panic strike it afflicts weakness for 51/4 sec on the enemy
11) recharges all skills of one type (traps, venoms etc)
12) gives you 2 initiative
13) has a 900 range
14) is instacast
15) can even be casted if you cannot even port to the target currently because he is on an obstacle (effects still proc)
16) only has 21 1/2 seconds cooldown
17) ports to the target (instant gapcloser)
18) you get a skill that in most cases counters your enemy for a certain amount of time
Can you not see how this is utterly broken?
To be honest I don’t acually mind having such a thing on thief because thief requires at lot of skill to be played competetively but the problem is that even tho the thief uses a lot of trait points to improve his “steal” ability in order to improve his survivability he still deals a ridiculous amount of dmg by double procs (air-fire, fire-blood)
Suggestion:
1.) Add counterplay to steal (you can only predict it atm)
2.) Remove some effects of steal – or – nerf double procs but make up for the nerfs by buffing other things on classes (not thief) that rely on these procs to have sustained dmg
Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Steal-is-too-strong-needs-adjustments

So I didn’t respond to this thread originally because sometimes I don’t feel like poking the hornets nest, but the “-or-” suggestion on number (2) is a moot point, since steal cant proc fire/air/blood (can’t crit).

Also this list is long because they split up single abilities, but I digress.

Justine.6351:

I see a lot of basilisk thieves out there. I’m sure they won’t mind the -5sec but it won’t change much. Just glad I don’t see much of the immobilize venom.

I run devourer venom. It kills a bunch of people who aren’t prepared for 5 seconds of immobilize.

@ Chapell: This thread is about bringing up the utility side of DB so that it can be useful in both power and condi builds. It doesn’t need a damage boost as Crucify has pointed out, but the pre/after cast make it a detriment to the set as a whole.

@ Crucify: I think we’re actually on the same page, but have sligtly different ideas about the exact scope of the changes that should be made. I also think it should be able to be used more reliably, but I think the skill shot would add the utility that D/D needs since it lacks the same sort of gap closers that the others have (shadowsteps).

If you’re doing hotjoin, and still want to use D/D, I’ve been having a lot of fun with this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYVl0Mp0pFOxrJ0PNRLh4972z19Rg++C-TpRBwAROCA02fYxDAgcZgHHCAAnAAA

Have I taken it into tPvP? Yes. Did it work? Yes. Viable at high level play? Probably not.

It pretty much excels at sitting on the side, and then bursting down an opposing player when a teammate asks for help.

My favorite strategy with it is to pop DV, when they’re at about 50-75% health while I’m in SB. When they go to pop their heal/condi-cleanse, steal for the interrupt, CnD+BS, and most of the time, squishies will be overwhelmed.

High risk fun build.

Just a quick thought about increasing the evade frames:

Even if you upped the evade frames to cover the entire skill, the worst you should end up with is the current evasiveness of S/D. You can really only spam the evades for so long before you’re out of initiative. Perhaps if the evade were increased to .5 seconds and the cast time + pre/post cast were shortened to the same total length as FS, it could be fired off faster, but would deplete initiative just as fast as spamming FS.

Not to mention (as NinjaEd pointed out and I’ll mention again for emphasis) all the damage can be cleared with a single condi clear, so after you dump all of your initiative into it, everything gets canceled out.

I think it would be cool to turn it into a form of warrior’s whirlwind attack (GS#3).

Leave the damage, bleeds, and range the same.

Increase the evade time to .5 seconds and make it directional (the same way you aim GS#3)

That would give D/D a little more sustain, allowing for evasive repositioning, and a little bit of running if needed. I think it might put it on par with S/D#3, D/P#3, and S/P#3.

Dahkeus.8243:

Maugetarr.6823:

Dahkeus.8243:

Urejt.5648:

I use elite venom on s/d pvp thief.

Yea, basilisk is the one exception to the venom rule. =P

Or devourer venom and slot daggerstorm so you can laugh while you watch rangers pew pew themselves to death.

Or do the same thing without devourer venom and get the exact same result.

But I like combining DV and Sleight of Hand. Defacto -instant cast stun (daze+immob) with a strong immobilize on the end. I just think its crappy that our elite is less elite than a normal utility. Having those 2 together is sort of how BV used to be about 3 nerfs ago.

Dahkeus.8243:

Urejt.5648:

I use elite venom on s/d pvp thief.

Yea, basilisk is the one exception to the venom rule. =P

Or devourer venom and slot daggerstorm so you can laugh while you watch rangers pew pew themselves to death.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Geiir.7603:

Evalia.7103:

Woaden.9425:

I’ve met a few great charr thieves in my day, and while it’s true that larger models ‘telegraph’ their moves,, it’s not really much of a disadvantage.

The main reason for that is, other than the asura player who purposefully chooses the smallest model in order to exploit the animation/tell system, we’re all basically in the same boat. Seeing a human do the big windmill loopdeeloop with their arm to apply basilisk or hide in shadows is essentially just as telegraphed as a charr.

To avoid this, you just apply those things from within stealth, which you should be doing as a general rule of thumb anyhow!

The most annoying characters to me are purposefully ultrasmall afro asuras, I just know they are going to be bad news on sight.

I’m playing smallest size asura. You should try it sometime. I also have biggest sized charr.
The difference is not even that much in visibility. It’s how it feels. Charr feels like a slug. Asura feels like some hyper-mobile rocket.

This is so true! After playing Asura for a few years everything else feel so slow… I have a Charr thief though, and she looks amazing!

Too bad armour doesn’t look that good on charrs, I made a female charr thief a while ago and she is so hilariously clunky and weird, I decided to keep her (charr test run).

The medium glorious armor doesn’t look half bad on charr. As far as I can tell, the glorious armor set is the only medium set without trenchcoats/skirts/buttcapes; just good old fashioned sin armor.

Who cares even if you were just copying Yishis! Good, tutorial gameplay should be welcomed as the helpful strategy tips that it is. Besides, it’s been quite a while since Yishis posted a new video.

Nice video.

NinjaEd.3946:

alchemyst.2165:

Maybe we could turn death blossom into a vulnerability, cripple, or just make it a power-based aoe evade skill. It’d be pretty cool if I could run into a group of people and press 3 to evade and deal 3-4k damage all around me.

No, no, no. Please, just make it a skill shot and a reliable evade frame. Even increase the initiative by 1 (5 total), it does not need to fit into a power skill or need any nerf to it’s conditions. Clunky skill’s don’t need buffs they need to be fixed.

Pretty much this. I don’t really care if it’s not doing damage in my power build as long as I can reliably use it as a purposeful dodge in reaction to a tell, rather than spamming it hoping their hard hitters don’t land during a pre/post cast.

@ kyubi: since you talk about D/P thieves healing in stealth driving you crazy, it might actually be the SA line that bothers you, not necessarily the D/P set.

Trickery D/P fights are usually fast paced while SA D/P is a long game of hide and seek.

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

yolo swaggins.2570:

DeceiverX.8361:

stuff

I think Ein was trying to point out the weaknesses based on average skill level gameplay but failed to mention it. I wouldn’t expect the average player to be proficient enough in thief survival to be able to maximize their DPS either, because the amount of effort and concentration required is more than a few notches above what an average player with basic knowledge can achieve.

Even if thief has the highest DPS, it doesn’t mean that any player will be able to use it effectively, if at all. It still doesn’t change the fact that you have to be good with the thief to be more than a stealth bot or pure DPS. That is the source of the complaints from the thief’s side.

Also Ein’s post was made over a year ago. So there’s that.

Yeah, it’s funny that this stuff still comes up. Each class has a decent niche if you don’t focus on being the absolute fastest in a run. The only classes I don’t like in groups really are necros and guards, and that’s not because I think they’re weak, but because they cover fire fields with light/dark fields, which is really just a minor annoyance.

I’m just going to state that the OP is right except for devourer venom. That one is arguably more elite than basilisk venom since it’s instant cast and that immobilize is the death of people is you interrupt their cleanse.

Back when basilisk couldn’t be broken and we could put out more damage faster, it arguably needed the 1 second cast and warning on the buff bar. Not so much anymore.

The problem with venoms is that they are weaker and have longer cooldowns than the weapon skills other classes have. There’s no real niche they fill.

Edit: Just realized the only change they are making is reducing the CD to 40 seconds from 45…. I’m not sure we’ll even see a difference.

Were you testing this build in hotjoin yesterday? I kept running up against a thief using these venoms, and I have to say it wasn’t that great because the skale venom gets cleared too easily for the cooldown. If you insist on having 2 utility slots filled by venoms, ice drake would probably be better because you can rotate between that and devourer venom, so when one is inevitably cleansed, you pop the other and kill them. The utility is the “strength” of venoms, not their damage.

I also wouldn’t recommend the venom heal.

I’m gonna go ahead and say that thief is not UP, it just the ridiculous amount of bugs and server lag that was introduced during the last patch. Getting hit during a dodge is one of the most frustrating things lately, and it makes thief feel UP because we can’t soak damage like other classes can, so it’s more noticeable on us. HS not hitting is another big thing now with the server lag, so finishing people off is becoming a huge problem.

Only the blinding shot is unblockable. Since he is blind, it looks like it is working properly. It used to not be unblockable, but reflects would end up teleporting your target to you, so they changed it so that you would always teleport to the target, but the knife attack can be blocked.

Would just like to see it made into Whirlwind Attack from warrior. Instead of damage, just leave the bleeds on it, but in all other aspects (cast time, evasion frames, pre and post cast), make it the same as the warrior’s. At 4 initiative, you’d only get 3 in a row and it becomes a skill shot, gap closer/creator, and actually usable as a dodge. The utility in that set would be more important than the damage.

johnpoc.8732:

Zero Day do you get owned THAT much by thieves? I can’t believe you spend so much time copying QQ threads.

This list is (supposed to be) a satire thread cataloging the endless flow of ridiculous suggestions for thieves. Although he and others document the posts, zero day and other thief mains are by no means proponents of the list compiled here.