Guild Wars 2

Justin ODell.9517:

Maugetarr.6823:

I didn’t run the numbers before, but that first team has a weight average of 2066, while the other team has a weight average of 1518. This produces a PDI of 1.3 and 1 respectively, showing that even though they have the same number average, the first is being lowered by having 2 low mmr players.

OK, I think I understand the concept.

I think what you’re suggesting is using the mass average molecular mass formula.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_mass_distribution#Mass_average_molar_mass

MAMM = (a^2+b^2+c^2+d^2+e^2) / (a+b+c+d+e)
Team 1: 2068
Team 2: 1520

I’m not sure how we would incorporate the PDI.

PDI is probably less useful than the weight average in this case. I wanted to be complete in my original suggestion though. It may only be useful in spot checking teams to see whether or not they are all close to the same mmr.

Laserbolt.6731:

Maugetarr.6823:

Justin ODell.9517:

Adding the math for a few of the suggestions I’ve seen.

Geometric Mean = (a*b*c*d*e)^(1/5)
Team 1: 1273
Team 2: 1517

Center = (min(a,b,c,d,e)+max(a,b,c,d,e))/2
Team 1: 1450
Team 2: 1525

Median = c
Team 1: 2200
Team 2: 1500

Before saying one is superior, try finding contradicting examples.

For example, I don’t like median for instances like this:
(2500, 2500, 1500, 1500, 1500) vs (1500, 1500, 1500, 1500, 1500)
Both have a median of 1500, but clearly team 1 would have the advantage.

Have you thought about using a (molecular) weight versus (molecular) number average like in polymer science? You could use the equivalent of the polydispersity for the system to see how the team values are skewed to the upper or lower mmr values.

Simplistic overview of weight versus number average :
http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/weight.htm

Polydispersity Overview:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersity

This is the kind of useful and interesting discussion I was hoping to prompt with my post.

All of the answers have been good.

I didn’t run the numbers before, but that first team has a weight average of 2066, while the other team has a weight average of 1518. This produces a PDI of 1.3 and 1 respectively, showing that even though they have the same number average, the first is being lowered by having 2 low mmr players.

Edit: (I got to a computer instead of my phone)

So the way you would run the numbers is first by taking the sum of the mmr of each team.

For team 1 it would be 7950 and team 2 it would be 7590.

Then you would do the weight calculation for each player

Team 1:

2400*(2400/7950)=724
2200*(2200/7950)=608
2300*(2300/7950)=665
550*(550/7950)=38
500*(500/7950)=31

Weight average is then 724+608+665+38+31=2066 (Mw)

Team 2:
1490*(1490/7590)=292
1600*(1600/7590)=337
1450*(1450/7590)=277
1550*(1550/7590)=316
1500*(1500/7590)=296

292+337+277+316+296=1518 (Mw)

These weight averages may be more useful in showing whether teams should be matched or not.

PDI (polydispersity index)=Mw/Mn

Team 1: 2066/1590=1.3
Team 2:1518/1518=1

This just gives a quick reference to how much deviation there is in a team since the Mw is more sensitive to larger numbers.

Hardcore.6351:

That was 3 Heartseekers missed in a row?
kitten that sux

Yeah….. high ping and/or packet loss is extremely frustrating for playing thief. I have other clips of getting hit mid dodge, but this was a clip that allowed people to easily see the effect of lag on thief play.

Justin ODell.9517:

Adding the math for a few of the suggestions I’ve seen.

Geometric Mean = (a*b*c*d*e)^(1/5)
Team 1: 1273
Team 2: 1517

Center = (min(a,b,c,d,e)+max(a,b,c,d,e))/2
Team 1: 1450
Team 2: 1525

Median = c
Team 1: 2200
Team 2: 1500

Before saying one is superior, try finding contradicting examples.

For example, I don’t like median for instances like this:
(2500, 2500, 1500, 1500, 1500) vs (1500, 1500, 1500, 1500, 1500)
Both have a median of 1500, but clearly team 1 would have the advantage.

Have you thought about using a (molecular) weight versus (molecular) number average like in polymer science? You could use the equivalent of the polydispersity for the system to see how the team values are skewed to the upper or lower mmr values.

Simplistic overview of weight versus number average :
http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/weight.htm

Polydispersity Overview:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersity

Simon.3794:

Thief is more heavy lag friendly, as in if you lag, the displayed body and the “actuall player” are not in the same spot ( body lag), but you can use auto pilot to find the enemy eaiser and land your attacks lol

sure, thief will die fast when only thief lag~

Thief is very lag unfriendly actually because your character will attempt to hit the other, and even with leaps, once the system recognizes where your hit is, the other play may not be there anymore.

The only time what you’re describing happens is when a player is entirely static (i.e. down), but not displaying correctly to you.

Attached is a .gif showing how the high prevents you from hitting even though you are right next to your target.

Simon.3794:

DeceiverX.8361:

Maugetarr.6823:

Cynz.9437:

look at pvp forums, the qq is massive there… apprently thieves define meta lol

Yeah, I’ve run across those, and they have some weird logic to them. Something along the lines of thieves (and mesmers to some extent) caused the celestial meta.

Lolwut. The reason why thieves are even in the current meta is because of the fact we’re in the boon-based celestial meta.

Without boon theft, there’s really no point in using them for anything in sPvP.

I’m sorry what, dp trickery thief and 26060 sd ( now 20066 cuz steal line op ) have been in the meta before celestial is even viable.

Steal line necessary cuz steal severely underwhelming without it.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Im talking about the stacking part. Ability to stack is one thing but the stacks are taking a 5 point hit per stack. That is where the true nerf lies.

Yes, but a lot of the might stacking builds were using battle and doom together. The elimination of 1 stack from the sigil plus the 35->30 means the sigil swap goes from the +105 power/cond it used to offer to +60 power/cond on swap

yolo swaggins.2570:

Maugetarr.6823:

MightyMicah.7451:

Klonko.8341:

No thief hasn’t been nerf to the ground… It the cele meta that drove them out

I would agree. The cele/might stacking meta is just too effective that it pushes Thieves out a bit.

It looks like might stacking is going to be taking a significant hit in the next balance patch.

125 points max isn’t very significant. Just saying

33% nerf to sigil of battle, ~14% nerf to might itself. Combined nerf to stacking from sigil of battle is ~43% nerf. It’s not insignificant.

Battlerobot.9461:

Maugetarr.6823:

Here’s an idea of how to maybe help P/P.

First, buff the scaling on the autoattack like others have suggested. The DPS (including the bleeding ) is barely on par with SB, and it has to be traited to maybe bounce. Dire P/D won’t see a buff, so it’s not much of a concern. Hybrid might but we don’t have the might stacking to really push it over the top like other Celestial classes. If they are worried about runaway damage, they could make it do extra damage on targets with vulnerability (like they did for warrior’s rifle) instead of just a straight up damage boost.

Second, get rid of unload in its current form. Rapid fire and volley work alright because they don’t affect the skills on the rest of the set. Instead, change the skill into a gap creator:

Fire a shot at point blank range (range 130, instant cast, up to 3 targets, 0.5 multiplier ). This shot destroys a boon(prioritizing stability). Evade backwards (.75 sec, distance 300, i.e dodge roll backwards ). Fire a second shot that weakens and cripples the target (3 seconds weakness and cripple, 1.5 multiplier). There should be a 0.25 second after cast as well so it’s not entirely evade frames.

I think this would allow P/P to retain cohesiveness as a power set and also be a threat to some of the boon-brawler builds running around right now. The damage portion of the skill is decently telegraphed by the dodge roll, keeping the skill from being overpowered. It also sets up nicely for headshot to be useful, and if they make the autoattack deal more damage to vulnerable foes, body shot will have its place as well as CnD in P/D hybrid.

If you’re playing a Thief, learn how to dodge. What you’re describing is a short bow, in case you haven’t noticed we thieves already have one of those. Have you even played with PP, and I’m not talking about shooting the golems in the mist. I played PP from level 6 or 7 when we got to dual weld up to level 80 and I still main those weapons now. Sure Dagger main hand is a great single target dps but if the Guard or whoever is tanking can’t get and maintain aggro for me then I’d rather go 100% up time with PP than about 85% with Daggers on certain pve bosses and mostly all the bosses in an F50.

I’m talking about adding utility and evasion while keeping the DPS up since it’s a single target weapon. Most of our dual skills (or #3 on shortbow) have an evasion tied to them; For reference, deathblossom (poor, i know), flanking strike, and pistolwhip all have an evade in them. D/P has a blind and gap closer, while P/D has a gap creator that punishes people chasing you. P/P has a nearly 2 second animation (including aftercast) with a 2.4 (total) multiplier. My objective was to punish bruiser classes while still giving a readable animation for counterplay. It also gives it a great reason to use it tactically rather than pressing 3 for damage. Also, when used in point blank range, the DPS would be higher than what we currently have, but the reposition would punish consecutive repeated use in terms of damage.

Adding a +20% damage modifier to the autoattack when the enemy has vuln in addition to that would give every skill on the set a clearly defined purpose in a P/P set.

Autoattack: Mediocre power damage until vuln applied (.585/sec with the boost vs shortbow’s .579/sec)

Body Shot: apply immobilize and vuln (increase your damage from auto)

Unload: evade, reposition, set up headshot to use against stability. Makes it difficult to maintain melee range (2.0/sec in point blank range vs. the current 1.37/sec. 1.5/sec when at a range greater than 130)

Headshot: interrupt

BPS: still meh for the initiative (on this paricular set)

(multiplier/sec were calculated using the total cast time including aftercast, not just the listed time)

If you’re saying that this would make P/P closer to shortbow, I’ll take that as a compliment.

MightyMicah.7451:

Klonko.8341:

No thief hasn’t been nerf to the ground… It the cele meta that drove them out

I would agree. The cele/might stacking meta is just too effective that it pushes Thieves out a bit.

It looks like might stacking is going to be taking a significant hit in the next balance patch.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Edit: Don’t overlook the nerf to might(~14%) and sigil of battle(33%).

I don’t actually see that as a nerf — instead, it gives us more staying power in conjunction with the buff on Invigorating Prec (IP). Even without IP, the changes on Might affects those who like to stack boons and relies on them for their source of damage.

So in order for those profession to maintain the same level of damage, they would need to increase their base power instead of relying on Might. This means, they would have to sacrifice a bit of survivability which is good for the Thieves, IMO.

Haha, yeah, I guess I didn’t phrase that correctly. I was excited for the nerf because we don’t rely on might stacking like the bruiser classes. We already give up (passive) survivability for damage, and now others will have to as well. Overall it’s something like a 43% nerf to the benefits of might stacking with sigil of battle.

Most excited about the dancing dagger change (buff-ish)

Edit: Don’t overlook the nerf to might(~14%) and sigil of battle(33%).

DeceiverX.8361:

Maugetarr.6823:

Cynz.9437:

look at pvp forums, the qq is massive there… apprently thieves define meta lol

Yeah, I’ve run across those, and they have some weird logic to them. Something along the lines of thieves (and mesmers to some extent) caused the celestial meta.

Lolwut. The reason why thieves are even in the current meta is because of the fact we’re in the boon-based celestial meta.

Without boon theft, there’s really no point in using them for anything in sPvP.

Not even joking. Enjoy.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Mesmer-s-and-Thieves-the-cause-of-PvP-s-Meta/first

Cynz.9437:

look at pvp forums, the qq is massive there… apprently thieves define meta lol

Yeah, I’ve run across those, and they have some weird logic to them. Something along the lines of thieves (and mesmers to some extent) caused the celestial meta.

Cynz.9437:

Maugetarr.6823:

Torqiseknite.1380:

Still makes noobs qq about stealth and instakill on the forums.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Game-Over

Holy crap.

I thought this stuff was over with.

no it is not, yesterday some terrible mesmer in HJ cried rivers about how thieves are OP and he hopes they will get nerfed—————— because you know, thieves didn’t get nerfed yet~

And here I thought we were to point where people thought “boy, I got outplayed” when they died to a thief…..

Maybe I’ve been spending too much time in unranked arenas.

Torqiseknite.1380:

Still makes noobs qq about stealth and instakill on the forums.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Game-Over

Holy crap.

I thought this stuff was over with.

Here’s an idea of how to maybe help P/P.

First, buff the scaling on the autoattack like others have suggested. The DPS (including the bleeding ) is barely on par with SB, and it has to be traited to maybe bounce. Dire P/D won’t see a buff, so it’s not much of a concern. Hybrid might but we don’t have the might stacking to really push it over the top like other Celestial classes. If they are worried about runaway damage, they could make it do extra damage on targets with vulnerability (like they did for warrior’s rifle) instead of just a straight up damage boost.

Second, get rid of unload in its current form. Rapid fire and volley work alright because they don’t affect the skills on the rest of the set. Instead, change the skill into a gap creator:

Fire a shot at point blank range (range 130, instant cast, up to 3 targets, 0.5 multiplier ). This shot destroys a boon(prioritizing stability). Evade backwards (.75 sec, distance 300, i.e dodge roll backwards ). Fire a second shot that weakens and cripples the target (3 seconds weakness and cripple, 1.5 multiplier). There should be a 0.25 second after cast as well so it’s not entirely evade frames.

I think this would allow P/P to retain cohesiveness as a power set and also be a threat to some of the boon-brawler builds running around right now. The damage portion of the skill is decently telegraphed by the dodge roll, keeping the skill from being overpowered. It also sets up nicely for headshot to be useful, and if they make the autoattack deal more damage to vulnerable foes, body shot will have its place as well as CnD in P/D hybrid.

irrumatio.4893:

snip

My question is, why isn’t this build more popular? The fact that it’s not on Metabattle? It’s easily better than any other condition damage build for Ele I’ve tried thus far. While it lacks the versatility of D/D Ele, it crushes Thieves, and who doesn’t love that?

D:

I don’t

xREAPERx.4702:

That was pretty enjoyable and to the comment above me, I believe he role-plays hence the Japanese phrases. Also cursing against the Mesmer is most likely because he mains Mesmer. Cheers!

It just struck me as odd because it was just about when he won against the mes. I guess killing your brethren if you main another class might be the reason for this. Makes sense after you pointed it out.

But there’s no honor amongst thieves. I smile when a thief falls to my blade.

Fun video. Random Japanese phrases were a little odd though, especially swearing as you took down the mesmer.

I cringed at the shadow refuge overlap! :P

Nephrite.6954:

Yeah but it doesn’t it bother you that it says assassin with almost every trait you use as a thief? Lol

but, but, but…. Thrill of the Crime, Bountiful Theft, Sleight of Hand, and Mug….4/6 of my traits are thief related. I’ve just had a little dagger and acrobatics training as well.

Cynz got it. If you have room to slot devourer venom also I’d recommend it. In general its good for both offense and defense.

Woaden.9425:

mango.9267:

Have you considered dropping devourer venom and picking up signet of agility for 60026?
It really doesn’t seem like pain response is doing much work for you, since you’re clearing with generosity/purity and sword 2.

I have, didn’t like it as much. I do miss pain response, and prefer it.

This build is also about no stealth and mobility. So swift on evade+feline grace+pack runes is necessary for what I am trying to do, I feel.

This build is very much like a s/d build, if 20606 is very much like a s/d. Yet you have shown that it works well in d/d. You certainly had your detractors. I think people get too stuck on “this point spread or that trait or this util is only for X build”.

I do think that 50036 works, and works well, to your point. Improv is fantastic, and that extra power is great. I just prefer the extra vit, boon duration, dodge, swift, regen, and condi clear.

If going 6xxx6, I think 60206 with SR/BP utils and maybe even HiS heal would be great, or maybe 60026 as you say, but then these are different builds, and not what I intended. I think S/P exists perfectly fine in this point spread.

Anyhow, thats part of the point of course, to have a discussion on these things! My opinion is that, after having tried all the spreads, I like this one.

5/0/0/3/6 is a really fun setup. I don’t take improvisation, but switch between dagger training and combined training depending on the weaponset I use.

Call target on downed player for your teammates to aoe or stomp, interrupt and attack anyone who comes to rez. I think that would compliment the playstyle you use.

Not that they aren’t a danger to thieves, but hambow is manageable, just a slow fight. Like the others have said, condi warriors are usually a bigger problem in my experience.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

This is a typical rapid fire vs backstab…..
One: push a button 1200 away…. single action… and the channel follows the target even when it’s in stealth….
The other: needs stealth, get into melee range, position right….

Sayirra really just busted me down 1200 away in 3 sec…

Interrupt the channel with headshot or steal. Equip daggerstorm and reflect it. You’d be surprised how many rangers keep firing into a daggerstorm. Stop putting points in defensive lines if you think your burst is too low.

I wish the skill range of thieves can be 1500 or 1200 to do what you said, in 2 sec of time….

Without any previous warning ahead… normally when you know it is rapid fire, it’s when you get it, then the channel just follows you, no matter what, is this hard to understand?

No, it’s not hard to understand, but it’s not hard to counter. As Sir Vincent Sw/D rangers are the things I worry about more. If they start from 1500 range, usually you can LoS them (in PvP). If getting into range is that much of a problem, you can trait steal to 1500 (wouldn’t recommend personally). Alternatively, you can use Infiltrator’s Arrow to close the gap by 900, then steal into them. Or infiltrator’s signet which is a decent counter to Point blank shot, which most LB rangers will open with so that you take more of the rapid fire. If you took off Assassin’s Signet, you could include IS and become more survivable. Alternatively, you could use SoA and have the extra dodges for defending against rapid fire while also increasing your burst potential slightly while it’s off CD. All channeled abilities follow you in stealth, as it’s been from day 1.

And as for the damage, I already provided you with roughly equivalent output in gif form.

so a thief has to sacrifice his damage, and most of his cool downs, just to fight against ranger’s one button? now I kind regret paying that $50 bucks for this game at the beginning…

Not necessarily, you could trait more offensively.

Selver.1307:

I laugh they buffed larcenous for that express purpose. Nerf that purpose. Then we have greater need for it now than we did when it was first revamped. Lol.

Yeah, I remember when they warned us about how they were going to change it, and a lot of thieves wanted the damage of LS tuned down while the utility side of it was left on it. With one boon stolen, it’s not bad, but those stacks of might are always going to be hidden under throwaway boons such as retal and regen. If they traded some damage now for another boon stolen, it could turn the tables on how boon bunkers hold points, which seems like a better idea than simply upping thieves’ damage to compensate. There would be conterplay and time to rotate help, especially since LS can be denied by dodging FS now.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Narkodx.1472:

Caed + Toker are still making noise on NA top teams.. in fact the two best teams in NA Abjured/DoD

As long as this is the case I am not sure how you can argue

If Thieves are really great at capping/decapping, then why aren’t we seeing a team with one bunker and 4 roaming Thieves?

If you look at TCG, their bruiser is a Warrior and you’re not wondering why that is?

The reason is, Warrior surpasses Thief in both damage and survivability — and even in mobility. That’s why other teams don’t even bother with Thieves and employ other professions as their roamer.

Once they balance Celestial Warr/Ele/Engi the Thief will be top tier again instead of being the 4th or 5th best choice on a team
All is vain

It seems like you now acknowledge that the burst damage of Thief is not balance against bunker and Celestials — that it is too low. Or am I just seeing things?

Been on the fence a while about celestial. Celestial by itself isn’t too powerful. Might stacking is what really brings it up. I don’t want to see them nerf might stacking, but rather buff boon removal/stealing/transfer. Imagine if BT took the full duration/stack of the boons it stole rather than 5 seconds. Or if they put 2 stolen boons back on LS since it’s not an automatic rollover anymore. That could really make a difference in the bruiser style builds you see around right now, which would bring up the potential of thieves without increasing their burst.

The same could be done to the other boon strippers such as necro and mesmers.

Tldr: boon stacking too strong, boon stripping too weak.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

This is a typical rapid fire vs backstab…..
One: push a button 1200 away…. single action… and the channel follows the target even when it’s in stealth….
The other: needs stealth, get into melee range, position right….

Sayirra really just busted me down 1200 away in 3 sec…

Interrupt the channel with headshot or steal. Equip daggerstorm and reflect it. You’d be surprised how many rangers keep firing into a daggerstorm. Stop putting points in defensive lines if you think your burst is too low.

I wish the skill range of thieves can be 1500 or 1200 to do what you said, in 2 sec of time….

Without any previous warning ahead… normally when you know it is rapid fire, it’s when you get it, then the channel just follows you, no matter what, is this hard to understand?

No, it’s not hard to understand, but it’s not hard to counter. As Sir Vincent Sw/D rangers are the things I worry about more. If they start from 1500 range, usually you can LoS them (in PvP). If getting into range is that much of a problem, you can trait steal to 1500 (wouldn’t recommend personally). Alternatively, you can use Infiltrator’s Arrow to close the gap by 900, then steal into them. Or infiltrator’s signet which is a decent counter to Point blank shot, which most LB rangers will open with so that you take more of the rapid fire. If you took off Assassin’s Signet, you could include IS and become more survivable. Alternatively, you could use SoA and have the extra dodges for defending against rapid fire while also increasing your burst potential slightly while it’s off CD. All channeled abilities follow you in stealth, as it’s been from day 1.

And as for the damage, I already provided you with roughly equivalent output in gif form.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

This is a typical rapid fire vs backstab…..
One: push a button 1200 away…. single action… and the channel follows the target even when it’s in stealth….
The other: needs stealth, get into melee range, position right….

Sayirra really just busted me down 1200 away in 3 sec…

Interrupt the channel with headshot or steal. Equip daggerstorm and reflect it. You’d be surprised how many rangers keep firing into a daggerstorm. Stop putting points in defensive lines if you think your burst is too low.

I don’t know if it’s still a problem, but it used to be that lightning/fire sigils could trigger and reveal you.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

Just to drive the point home how much of a difference your traits can make in your burst output (especially in PvP), I’ve attached a few pictures.

2,541 Steal
3,191 C&D
8,096 BS

If you look at my cooldown timers, that 13,828 damage happened in about 1 second. Yes this is a zerk v. zerk fight, but the damage doesn’t really need to be higher, just some of the thief weapon skills and utilities need tweaking.

You need to see the combat log to see damage of each hit my friend, the number on the screen is not exactly damage from each skill… that 8096 BS you saw on screen might include your flame and air, your position, bleeding damage etc… the actual BS might be just around 4k

Here’s a gif of it

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

Just to drive the point home how much of a difference your traits can make in your burst output (especially in PvP), I’ve attached a few pictures.

2,541 Steal
3,191 C&D
8,096 BS

If you look at my cooldown timers, that 13,828 damage happened in about 1 second. Yes this is a zerk v. zerk fight, but the damage doesn’t really need to be higher, just some of the thief weapon skills and utilities need tweaking.

You need to see the combat log to see damage of each hit my friend, the number on the screen is not exactly damage from each skill… that 8096 BS you saw on screen might include your flame and air, your position, bleeding damage etc… the actual BS might be just around 4k

I don’t have flame/air on that build… If I did, they would pop up as separate numbers.

I’m sort of new to S/F ele, so i just have a few questions. Against the thief, it seems like you didn’t use arc lighting very much, but wouldn’t that have cleared the blinds and procced the fire sigil more. Also starting AL then switching attunements pretty much guarantees Fresh Air triggering instantly. How come you use arcane blast rather than wave? It seems like you could have downed the thief inside of SR/while stealthed a couple of times with it which would justify the longer CD.

Runes of the Pack for thief work pretty well. Has a good “on hit” proc, swiftness bonus, power, and precision boost. Pairs extremely well with TotC.

Aside from the necroing done here, what if they made a shoulder armor (like the scarf) that went up the neck and covered the bottom of the face. They wouldn’t have to make an entirely new headpiece then and you could use it with the glowy eyes/other headgear.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I read your first paragraph and that was it. you are trying way too hard to troll.
stop please – end of line.

I understand, if keep reading, it will make your face red and blood pressure higher… so end line is a better choice.

I just read your post here in this topic… you are obviously not a thief player but trolling here with opinions from others…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/PvP-Guide-for-new-Thiefs-in-Ranked-Arenas/first#post4670591

For others who wants to post here, please make sure at least you play a 80 level thief and at least level 40 in pvp, otherwise, don’t bull kitten here please ^

You didn’t care for my opinion.

Had a Naga for 3 years (at least) of heavy gaming before the right click started to do the double clicking thing. I still use it for my laptop (for school ). Replaced my desktop one with the updated 2014 w/ mechanical side buttons and love it. When buying off the razer website they stand behind their warranties nicely. I had an orbweaver stealth’s d-stick start to go bad. They replaced it with a regular orbweaver because they were out of stock on the stealth version. I told them my mic picked up the clicks too well which was why I bought the stealth in the first place. They gave me enough store credit to get one for free when it got back in stock.

Might be just my experience, but so far razer tech support has been great. I’ll continue to buy their products.

Zackie.8923:

then why doesn’t the warrior’s whirling axe reflect projectiles?

15 second CD base (vs 35 base)
Fills adrenaline (i.e. greatly assists class mechanic)
Always on weapon (isn’t lost if used at incorrect time)
Flavor (tanking vs trickery)

I play more. PvP has improved pretty dramatically (games with scores<100 difference) and my ISP finally fixed my internet after 8 months of complaining when they started having to refund my money.

Living World story has been good, just the updates have been small (an hour’s worth of content…maybe).

When I get bored with one aspect of this game, I usually just move to another.

Yeah, I was hoping with this idea that players gear wouldn’t be obsolete immediately since they would only see changes to their main every 4 months, but watching a wave of smaller balance changes occur around them might nudge them to try new things. Along with the more focused changes, I would hope it would be less stressful on the devs because they wouldn’t have every player yelling at them after a big patch if bugs popped up or players disagreed with changes. It seems like it would be easier to put out little fires rather than a raging inferno.

Anomaly.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

Just to drive the point home how much of a difference your traits can make in your burst output (especially in PvP), I’ve attached a few pictures.

2,541 Steal
3,191 C&D
8,096 BS

If you look at my cooldown timers, that 13,828 damage happened in about 1 second. Yes this is a zerk v. zerk fight, but the damage doesn’t really need to be higher, just some of the thief weapon skills and utilities need tweaking.

That’s also a very ideal matchup. One that is really rare to be had in the current meta. Also, that’s assuming your enemy will let you CnD and BS them. I can’t speak for others, but when I see a Thief stealth, I know he’s going to try to BS me so I either move out of the immediate area I know they are, or I use a number of other defensive maneuvers like rolling. BS is just too easy to counter and the reveal debuff is crippling. The whole time reveal is ticking, the Thief either needs to GTFO, or roll around as fast as they can because condi’s and AoE will definitely be flying around enough to take them out before they can even stealth and try again, giving them another chance to fail.

Other classes have a lot more forgiveness with their damage/defense/healing mechanics where Thieves get very little to no forgiveness. Mess up on a Thief, you’re dead. Mess up a bit with an engi/guard, just use some defensives and you’ll be fine.

Yeah, that one is an ideal matchup. Cele ele/engi is definitely a hard matchup and I would hesitate to jump on either one in a 1v1 (especially engi as eles at least lock themselves out of attunements). If you sit off to the side and wait for them to hit 50ish% in a group fight, while keeping up poison from SB, you can burst right before a heal causing a down or retreat. Ideally in a team fight against an ele, you wait for armor of earth to pop, wait for the switch out of water (to air usually) and steal to grab the stability to ignore the lighting aura they’ll try to counter with. It might not kill them, but usually removes them from the fight.

What I’m trying to say is that you can’t scale up the burst due to the other thief mechanics. Some utilities and weapon skills could use some tweaking.

Not going to disagree with you at all on guards though. The scale of their healing and number of blocks/blinds/minor heals makes landing a successful burst extremely dangerous to attempt.

They could shave/balance on a rotating basis, one class every 2 weeks so it would be minor rolling changes that can more quickly react to imbalances. That way every 4 months a class would see a change to themselves but there would be (possible) changes to the meta every 2 weeks. It seems like small changes to 1 class each time would make it a lot easier to see how the player base responds rather than dumping a huge patch every 6 months.

As a disclaimer, I have no idea if that would be more or less work for the devs.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

Just to drive the point home how much of a difference your traits can make in your burst output (especially in PvP), I’ve attached a few pictures.

2,541 Steal
3,191 C&D
8,096 BS

If you look at my cooldown timers, that 13,828 damage happened in about 1 second. Yes this is a zerk v. zerk fight, but the damage doesn’t really need to be higher, just some of the thief weapon skills and utilities need tweaking.

One of the better suggestions I’ve seen. Makes it unique and not overpowered. Sort of the stealthless version of hidden killer.

Keyboardwarrior.8021:

Maugetarr.6823:

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Any class can be OP or UP depends on the players’ skills, this is pointless, I don’t know why you say useless things like this.

Again, they have equivalent skills to defense like our stealth, they are tankier, have more HP, more CC skills and damage burst is more, that’s total unfair.

I apparently haven’t conveyed my point properly. The thief walks a fine line between OP and UP. Right now it is balanced pretty well. Whether you win or lose is entirely based on your skill. We (thieves) have repeatable evasion, high amounts of dodges, high mobility, and ample amounts of blind and weakness. While it’s true that other classes have much higher CC, HP, and invulns, our lack of control and tankiness is offset by our active defenses. Therein lies the rub. The other classes have much more passive defense and inherent ability to survive, but if you wait for the opportune time to strike, you can control the fight.

I am going to suggest that you trait glassier since you have mentioned 6 in SA in sPvP. I would recommend something like:
5/0/0/3/6
6/0/2/0/6
2/6/0/0/6

With the first listed above, against glassy targets (shatter mes, S/F zerk ele, zerk nec) in sPvP, I max out at around a 7.5k BS. If you haven’t played these before, you’ll probably die a lot at first, but as soon as you learn the other classes builds and rotations (very important) you’ll find that we hold a niche the other classes don’t. It’s not the highest burst though. We excel at stomp prevention (via stability strip, SR, repeatable interrupts) and picking off targets in small group fights.

Until you have more experience with these builds, I would recommend avoiding cele ele, terror nec, cele engineer, and some warriors (some warrior fights are easy, some are extremely difficult, and this is not necessarily build based).

@keyboardwarrior: We know that other classes can do comparable /more damage than thieves; they have higher coefficients and comparable modifiers, so mathematically the potential (and actual in some cases) damage output is greater. The problem is is that thief constantly walks the line between OP and UP and it’s largely dependent on player skill (both yours and the enemy’s ). The thing is our flat out ability to tank is nill, so if that’s your assessment of the thief’s survivability it’s never going to be good because we lack the blocks, invulns, and protection that other classes have. We do have a plethora of evades, dodges, blinds, and even weakness application. That’s sort of what leads to the disagreement between thieves and other classes because our fights end up being bipolar unless both parties are good with their particular classes: you either win handily or eat dirt hard.

I happen to think we’re in a pretty decent spot right now. A few tweaks/fixes here and there to things like venoms/deathblossom/traps would be great, but I can’t think of too much that could be buffed without overwhelming other classes (not all others but maybe a third of them) or nerfs that wouldn’t make thieves sub par to other zerkers. That seems like pretty decent balance to me right now at least.

Ragion.2831:

SinisterWraith.2910:

From what I have been reading on these forums. The Thief has literally been nerf’d into the ground and unplayable in PvP.

You are right, the game is full of easy mode AoE and CC, Condi builds etc that deal way more damage than a skill shot like back stab. I think if you are wanting a melee play Warrior, if you want a stealth toon play Ranger. Thief is dead.

Kocoff.7582:

Thieves are really weak.
The problem with thieves is this: the longer the fight, the lesser your chances of survival.

Can we please be serious? there are still people who havent tried the class and putting out inaccurate comments like this could kill the class.

I’m pvp rank 80 and ive played necro since release, then played thief for the past 3 months with a little guardian in between and i can tell you thief class is very far from weak. The problem is closed minded builds.

I have no clue where this idea of running either s/d or d/p came from, or the 2/0/0/6/6 craze. Lets not forget this popular idea that you HAVE to run shadow refuge. Open up the builds guys. I run an evade style 5/0/0/3/6 with no shadow refuge and no bow and I can tell you this set up has proven to be HIGHLY effective.

It fits well into my evade play style instead of going into stealth every 2 seconds and wasting everyone’s time. Its a lot more rewarding because the build is heavily dependent on split second decisions. I worry much less about CDs like most thieves would in a long fight. The damage is there, the cleanses are there and I can take on multiple decent players at the same time (sometimes)

For me this build surpasses the meta people seem to base the class’ pvp viability on because i built it based on my play style.

My point is, the meta build or whatever build theory crafters come up with that is supposed to be “viable” could really be useless if it doesn’t fit your play style and it could lead you to think the class is “weak”

Woah, woah, woah! Don’t go around telling people about 5/0/0/3/6. That one’s mine!

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I have all professions at 80. I main an elementalist but I did play all the others quite a bit. I’m not a good thief but I’m not ignorant about the class strength and how it feels to play a staff ele vs thief (an almost impossible fight to win). How much damage do you think your backstab routine does on my ele before I even have a chance to react? It is ridiculous and I’m no dummy. Had I devoted as much time to my thief as I did my ele I’d be hated by all.

I just would like to point out that you’re making an Apples to Oranges comparison between these 2 specs. An S/D, S/F, D/D, or D/F build actually puts out comparable burst and usually better sustain than the thief. Staff ele is (typically) a group fight oriented weapon which is great for XvX but not 1v1. Talking about how hard it is to kill a thief using staff is not a very fair comparison to make.

As for the amount of damage output backstab does to your ele, anywhere from 3.5 to 7.5k (crit) depending on protection and both players’ builds (in PvP).

GOSU.9574:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa4Yl0Mp8pdPx6J8PNROhs9jAH4Kj3PnGF-TJBFwACOJAk2foaZAAPBAA

Weapon swap is totally up to player’s choice. Smoke Screen utility can be any of a number of choices including Roll for Initiative, Devourer Venom, Shadowstep, etc.

Since I play this from range I only use Steal when there is some benefit like the bundle’s effect, i.e. Fear. For that reason I didn’t flesh out Steal traits. You can swap Shadow Arts Master of Deception to Acrobatics Vigorous Recovery to take more advantage of Withdraw.

This is a pretty simple p/p, I make no claim to be a genious and yes, other builds can out dps it but they are melee and I wanted a workable hotjoin p/p that actually peeled off peep’s hides. This does it.

I do not recommend trying to duel people with this or to 1v1 often in hotjoin, it’s meant as a ranged flanker and does that quite nicely. It is incredibly glassy, in fact only Assassin’s Amulet would make it more glassy.

Any suggestions to improve, beyond “LOL switch to d/p” welcomed.

Nothing wrong with a fun hotjoin build. Usually I use SB instead of P/P, but taking D/D in is pretty fun most of the time.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa4Yl0MpwpdNx0J8PNRLh4972z19Rg++C-TZBEwAGODA52fAwBBIbZACPAAA