Guild Wars 2

As stated above me and probably throughout the thread in multiple places, you could already cast the stolen skill and then steal. The only thing that changes is the fact that you can steal without having to use the stolen item now, and you might now not precast only to realize you have 3 seconds left on the steal cooldown.

Oh, and they actually stated some skills will be nerfed to compensate for improvisation, so this QoL change will be accompanied by a simultaneous nerf.

Edit: Forgot a “not”

Mesmer got an offhand (not that they needed another), but
Guard lacked ranged options→ Longbow
and
Necro lacked melee choices (only dagger AA) → Greatsword

Thief has decent close combat choices (they’re adding condi traits too), decent midranged condi, and decent long(ish) range AoE utility (SB). The hole we have is true long range damage. I would hope it’s more of a good sustained damage with utilities rather than an initiative dump like P/P. A flat 0.85 modifier on the auto (like staff ele fire auto) with a good projectile speed would be nice. Maybe only 1 second time shot to shot. The other skills I would like to see have decent effects at 1200 range, but get stronger as you got closer to encourage you to close the gap while still being useful at max range.

Example:

Headshot 2.0
4 initiative
0-600: knockback 150
600-900: knockback 50
900-1200: 0.5 second daze

anotherduck.8730:

Strategist.6132:

Or am I wrong at this? Of course they are still tweaking the numbers, but I hope they would buff the vigor rate to around 150? Or do you guys think that is too much?

This has been mentioned before when the changes were first announced. If they changed the vigor trait to a 50% increase it would still be a nerf but closer to what we are used to with the current FG trait.

Copy pasting the math from another thread, provided by Maugetarr.6823

Math for FG and the change:
Baseline Endurance: 50(endurance)/5(endurance per second)=10 seconds per dodge
Baseline FG Endurance: 35(endurance)/(5 endurance per second)=7 seconds per dodge
Vigor Endurance: 50 (endurance)/ (5*2)(endurance per second)=5 seconds per dodge
New trait: 50 (endurance)/ (5*2.2) (endurance per second)=4.5454 seconds per dodge
Suggested trait (50% increase): 50 (endurance)/(5*2.5)(endurance per second)=4 seconds per dodge.
Current Vigor+FG: 35(endurance)/(5*2)(endurance per second=3.5 seconds per dodge

Just wanted to add the math for the change to 5 endurance on crit proposal.
(Assuming a crit exactly when it comes off CD)

EoC: 5*5(EoC)=25 endurance+5seconds endurance regen= 5 seconds per dodge
EoC + Vigor: 3*5(EoC)+3.5 seconds*(5*2 endurance per second)=50 endurance= 3.5 seconds per dodge.

Assuming you crit exactly when the EoC comes off CD, this change would equal the current FG, but require much more aggressive play. In practice, it would probably be something more like 4-4.5 seconds per dodge while playing aggressively (with vigor), and no benefit while spamming dodges.

RedSpectrum.1975:

I thought these were extinct, I’m glad I’m wrong, I needed this

Just wanted to put an idea forward. Since they’re changing this trait (maybe), perhaps they could move some utility /defense into a more active role with the CS traitline. While Acro will become reactive/passive with stuff like “don’t stop,” “HtC,” “pain response,” etc., why not put more active versions of these into the CS line. Something like “gain 5 endurance on crit, 1 sec icd” so it ensures that you stay aggressive in combat, and the more aggressive, the more you benefit. This would pair well with IP for instance. Maybe instead of asking for them to not make the changes in acro, we should ask them to make the inverse of this style play also available so builds become more distinct.

Forum bug.

Thanks Karl! Does this mean that thief is getting its preview soon?

NinjaEd.3946:

Phantom Master.9582:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Well we just have to disagree because the intended use of dodge is for evading attacks and not for repositioning, thus even though it allows you to use it for repositioning, FG will only reward you if you use it as intended.

The current intent of FG is exacly that, to reward both positioning via rolling and evading via rolling, FG’s function is to increase our dodge rolling capacity to give us a more manual defensive mechanic rather than a static one. There is no indication that this needs to change in the meta nor in the build’s performance.

The new FG is not a needed change, and shouldn’t be welcomed, thus the making of this thread.

snip
Most classes either get a small source of vigor or have to simply deal with their 2 evade cap and wait. I know thief, especially acrobatic’s thieves, are meant to avoid damage entirely rather than soak it up and recover but I don’t think this much evasion was intended.
snip

Actually
Guardian: ~50% uptime with 1 minor trait.
Mesmer: ~50% uptime with 1 minor trait.
Elementalist: ~100% uptime with 1 major trait.

Thief: ~100% uptime with 3 major traits and constantly using your heal when available.

Half the classes in the game have decent access to vigor and the other 3 have more access to other defensive boons, blocks, and invulnerability. I’m not saying our current access is bad, but we build around it heavily compared to the throw away access that other professions have.

If critical strikes could get some access to vigor, it might compete with the new DA line. I don’t necessarily mind the new FG either, but the 20% improvement trait is underpowered as it gives 1 more natural dodge every 50 seconds compared with regular vigor. If it were 50%, it would be 1 more dodge every 20 seconds, which seems reasonable for a class with limited defensive boons.

I’ll agree that the current form of feline grace returning 15 on dodge might be a little too good since it allows a natural dodge every 3.5 seconds when combined with vigor, but reducing it 10 on dodge would go a long way to helping it.

I know I said I was going to stay out of it, but I just wanted to say that part of the disappointment (for me) is that all of the mid tier trait choices are ‘meh.’ They kept touting themed lines with the reaper spec, but the mid tier is just sort of thrown in there like they didn’t know where else to put them. If they swapped arcane energy and arcane shield, you could say that that you were focusing on an evasion-centric build by picking up renewing stamina (vigor on crit), arcane energy (25 endurance gain and recharge reduction on skill that guarantee crits), and evasive arcana to use all that endurance up with. Then arcane shield, contingency, and Elatt could be themed around taking hits.

The most frustrating part imo was not that they made you choose between the EAs but rather the lack of synergy in the rest of the line based around that important choice.

I mean, it’s not exactly the same, but at least there’t the assassin-y feel to glorious armor

Strider and glorious armors are probably your best options outside human t3 cultural As they don’t have skirts or trenchcoats or buttcapes. Maybe HoT will bring some warmer weather (no coats) armor.

DeceiverX.8361:

Zero Day.2594:

Sagat.3285:

Cynz.9437:

Sagat.3285:

BFMV.3198:

Because they are tampering with either stealth or revealed

Anet just delete the class

No other class has restrictions on its defenses

Necro…there is no need for such measures they see it as bug too.

except the bug wouldn’t happen unless they were messing around with stealth mechanics for the future changes…

I doubt this is the “beginning part” of a change it doesn’t add up with anything,maybe a change but not this type.

Yeah… Stuff doesn’t magically break or bug out unless something was done on it or around it.

Elite spec stuff maybe?

I’d argue otherwise. A patch a while ago broke ranger pet passive/active such that all pets would always force-attack anything targeted or attacking the ranger, even if on passive mode. No changes have been made to AI or the ranger as a class since. It took ANet almost six weeks to roll out the solution because they had no idea what was causing the problem. The same issue also happened this patch.

A bad name or pointer can cause all sorts of errors even if in totally unrelated segments of the game.

I’ll just go along with this explanation. I don’t do a lot of coding but nothing ever seems to go right the first time, and it wouldn’t be caught before a rollout if the bug caused something else totally unrelated to what you’re working to malfunction. Especially with multiple people modifying code.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Zero Day.2594:

Also, it probably won’t be named sniper. Something like “Marksman”…. sniper is too modern.

Sniper is not a modern term, look up its etymology.

I also doubt it would be Marksman, since Ranger already has a trait line named Marksmanship.

My bet is Thief gets mace.

If it’s another melee weapon, I hope its axe. Mace in this game is generally slow on the attack, while axe seems like a faster hitting weapon no matter the class it’s on.

Cynz.9437:

Zero Day.2594:

Cynz.9437:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sagat.3285:

They would never make a specialisation that doesn’t fit at least one mode name are just names, thief couldn’t have gotten traps because we already have them and they will be better after traits changes. Since it’s supposed to be a mix, with thief rifle I expect thief+war.

We’ll get rifle and shouts!

“BOOM! HEADSHOT”-Increase next ranged stealth attack damage by 50%

“NO-SCOOOOOOOOPE”-+50% Crit Chance for 7 seconds

“GET REKT!”-Crit hits apply 1 stack of vulnerability (10 seconds) for the next 10 seconds (no icd). Break stun

“Come at me bro!”- Taunt up to 3 enemies for 3 seconds

I think those would be sufficiently troll-y enough and fitting for the thief.

thieves are already most hated class lol i don’t think they need more help in that department~

We need to get to the point were people will just rage quit when they see us.

that is already the case when you get 4 thieves on team in ranked xD

Do you mean that the 5th on your team quits? ;P

Ignarel.7916:

As I said in another thread, clones are a mesmer mechanic. You can argue that they can get them through utilities, but we can also get initiative through ours and that doesn’t change that it is our class mechanic.

Clones, the same as initiative or life force, are part of a class mechanic and I can’t see them being spread around.

I think you’re right.
If we were to get some mesmer mechanics I would think manipulations would be the prime candidate. I mean you have stuff like arcane thievery, blink, and mimic under it which all easily fit under thief style gameplay. If we were to pick up some of their skills, i would think more debuffs(hexes) under the name “manipulation.”

Anchoku.8142:

Long range dps / CC with less mobility seems likely to me. No reason Ranger should have all the fun. Even Guard is getting range.

I think this is the best guess. Medium to high damage auto attack (Think staff ele in fire) with situationaly good utility on our other skills (like shortbow). I doubt we’ll get cc though as our moves are repeatable so the hardest cc we currently have is a half second stun (Pistolwhip).

Xillllix.3485:

Maugetarr.6823:

DarkSyze.8627:

Kaleban.9834:

DarkSyze.8627:

Gaab.4257:

All those nice theories at anet, why to change something, why to take away something.

It’s all nice but where is the FUN? Isn’t GW a game somewhere, that people play for fun?

Fun?

It is not nice when there is no Fun to play against this profession. GW should be a game somewhere, that people play for fun but it is not. That is why change-challenge must be enforce to make it happen.

Challenge can not exist without Fun: can not separated at all. If anyone Dare break them apart: will only result in sever punishment and sever consequence.

The evidence is everywhere and will continue to spread without no control. Arena net sales and popularity is not improving: it is sever decreasing because of this.

The only way for Arena net to redemption is to surrender to challenge and enforce it.

Here are the list of Profession that are in sever Violation of Challenge and must be enforced for Fun and Challenge to be harmony together.

Ranger, Elementalist, Thief and Engineer.

When Enforcement of Challenge is Enforced: than you can say the word Fun.

-You can not talk about one without the other-

All Your Base Are Belong To Us?

My brain had a seizure reading this, but I get the point, that balance of the professions is key to competitive, and fun gameplay.

The problem with the premise of your argument though is that you determine what is fun, whereas someone else’s definition may be different. Eles do not DOMINATE any game mode, they’re decent to good in most, but are not the overpowering, destructive force you allude to.

And really, its not even a problem. The Ele (and Engineer) are the most difficult professions to play, and if they are played skillfully SHOULD reward the player with consistent victory. Otherwise, you’re punishing players who would pick those professions so that scrubs who noobcannon their way through the game with Warriors and Guardians can feel good about crushing Scholars.

Where is “skill”?
Where is “Challenge”?
Where is “Fun”?
Where is “Hard-Work”?
Where is “Effort”?
Why so many rewards: for free?
Change-Nerf: where?

I am so glad many mmo’s include new mmo companies do not tolerate this in their games. They make challenge+Fun, Risk-Reward first priority

If you want to play challenge+fun, risk-reward game(s), i will meet you there… until Arena net make serious change and take serious action

" Action expresses priorities and solutions "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZauXcGdhpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMvarJ28SYo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq6DxxFyNIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc6LZTwamPI

Imma let chu finish, but mesmer had one of the best videos of all time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqo-tr7i9_o

Where is “skill”?
Where is “Challenge”?
Where is “Fun”?
Where is “Hard-Work”?
Where is “Effort”?
Why so many rewards: for free?
Change-Nerf: where?

All these videos makes you remember how bad GW2 classes balance is. We have been dealing with this for years (we used to have Meteornado to compensate but that was lost), but it doesn’t change the fact that the burst of the ranger at that range is completely broken.

That wasn’t to really say that mesmers are OP, just Darksyze mains mesmer IIRC. Actually, pretty much the only class you’ll have trouble finding a burst like any of these videos is necro. I think that goes to show how close to balanced the game is. That’s not to say there aren’t a couple of builds that aren’t outliers, but class to class it’s not that bad. I don’t want to derail the thread though, so I’ll just go back to lurking in it as the Ele mains flesh this topic out (as ele is my favorite alt, not my main). It just bugs me when I see someone calling for half of the game’s classes to be nerfed.

Carry on.

evilapprentice.6379:

Maugetarr.6823:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sadrien.3470:

Let’s consider the benefits of SoH being baseline and the problems.

Pros:
Opens the ability for thieves to play 6066 which have extremely strong surviavbility + damage and cc ( is this really a pro ???)
Cons:
Will make thieves stronger as a class which will affect balance as they are already very strong.
Makes 10 stacks of confusion on steal possible ( destroying balance because no other class can do that on a under 30s CD. )
Ruins gm choice in trickery line.

If you currently think “thieves are very strong”, we’re playing different games. Go watch terrorsquads video where he explains how a thiefs only role is to cap unguarded points, contribute to uneven fights, and avoid 1v1’s entirely (unless of course you’re fighting a mesmer or another thief). Your analysis also completely ignored the current issue with SoH.

When I first saw this thread, I agreed that SoH didn’t need to become baseline. The more I thought about it however, I began to see the problem. So many of thiefs strong traits are tied to steal that it’s almost impossible not to take SoH just for the 20% CD reduction. It’s not even as if you can take a spec that doesn’t use steal traits – in the new system, you’re taking at least 1 of the following lines – DA, SA, or Trickery (ignoring the new specialization at the moment), and in each of those trees the traits tied to steal are better than their counterparts (though it be different when the changes go live, of course). With Acro being a little UP and CS being pure crap (again, that may change), you’re probably taking all 3.

That being said, the answer isn’t just to make SoH baseline. Instead, I’d like to propose a compromise. Add the following to the new baseline steal
- Steal 1 boon and grant it to the thief themself.
- Steal CD reduced by 10%
- Steal dazes for .25s

Redesign the following traits
Bountiful theft – steal now rips a second boon, grants vigor, and shares everything with up to 5 allies in the radius (So a traited BT in this proposed system works exactly like it does now)
SoH – Lots of possibilities here, but it needs to be redesigned, and does not include any further reduction to steals CD.

Now thieves are not forced into Trickery just for the CD reduction of SoH, and thieves can still interrupt stability stomps, but without trickery you can use Aegis to counterplay it.

Not sure we need the 0.25 daze baseline, but I like the idea of the CD reduction being rolled into baseline while the trickery line still includes a reduction (like how they’re doing to attunment swapping). A single boon would also be nice, but I think the CD reduction is the most important part of balancing out the GM traits in that line.

You are correct.

Removing the CD reduction from SoH and making it baseline makes it so that Trickery is no longer psuedo-required.

The other changes I suggested were to give other trait lines (CS, Acro, SA) a fighting chance – even with the CD reduction baseline, trickery is a no-brainer for any viable thief build after DA. Adding the other effects to baseline makes it so that you can ignore trickery and still retain a small portion of its usefulness.

If steal baseline were 25 seconds and they implemented the new lead attacks, the disparity between traited and non-traited steal would certainly be reduced.

25/1.15=~21.75

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

Guys, it’s just stealthed.

God kitten it maug… you stole that from me…

Why couldn’t you have let it play a bit further.

Guys, it’s just stealthed.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sadrien.3470:

Let’s consider the benefits of SoH being baseline and the problems.

Pros:
Opens the ability for thieves to play 6066 which have extremely strong surviavbility + damage and cc ( is this really a pro ???)
Cons:
Will make thieves stronger as a class which will affect balance as they are already very strong.
Makes 10 stacks of confusion on steal possible ( destroying balance because no other class can do that on a under 30s CD. )
Ruins gm choice in trickery line.

If you currently think “thieves are very strong”, we’re playing different games. Go watch terrorsquads video where he explains how a thiefs only role is to cap unguarded points, contribute to uneven fights, and avoid 1v1’s entirely (unless of course you’re fighting a mesmer or another thief). Your analysis also completely ignored the current issue with SoH.

When I first saw this thread, I agreed that SoH didn’t need to become baseline. The more I thought about it however, I began to see the problem. So many of thiefs strong traits are tied to steal that it’s almost impossible not to take SoH just for the 20% CD reduction. It’s not even as if you can take a spec that doesn’t use steal traits – in the new system, you’re taking at least 1 of the following lines – DA, SA, or Trickery (ignoring the new specialization at the moment), and in each of those trees the traits tied to steal are better than their counterparts (though it be different when the changes go live, of course). With Acro being a little UP and CS being pure crap (again, that may change), you’re probably taking all 3.

That being said, the answer isn’t just to make SoH baseline. Instead, I’d like to propose a compromise. Add the following to the new baseline steal
- Steal 1 boon and grant it to the thief themself.
- Steal CD reduced by 10%
- Steal dazes for .25s

Redesign the following traits
Bountiful theft – steal now rips a second boon, grants vigor, and shares everything with up to 5 allies in the radius (So a traited BT in this proposed system works exactly like it does now)
SoH – Lots of possibilities here, but it needs to be redesigned, and does not include any further reduction to steals CD.

Now thieves are not forced into Trickery just for the CD reduction of SoH, and thieves can still interrupt stability stomps, but without trickery you can use Aegis to counterplay it.

Not sure we need the 0.25 daze baseline, but I like the idea of the CD reduction being rolled into baseline while the trickery line still includes a reduction (like how they’re doing to attunment swapping). A single boon would also be nice, but I think the CD reduction is the most important part of balancing out the GM traits in that line.

DarkSyze.8627:

Kaleban.9834:

DarkSyze.8627:

Gaab.4257:

All those nice theories at anet, why to change something, why to take away something.

It’s all nice but where is the FUN? Isn’t GW a game somewhere, that people play for fun?

Fun?

It is not nice when there is no Fun to play against this profession. GW should be a game somewhere, that people play for fun but it is not. That is why change-challenge must be enforce to make it happen.

Challenge can not exist without Fun: can not separated at all. If anyone Dare break them apart: will only result in sever punishment and sever consequence.

The evidence is everywhere and will continue to spread without no control. Arena net sales and popularity is not improving: it is sever decreasing because of this.

The only way for Arena net to redemption is to surrender to challenge and enforce it.

Here are the list of Profession that are in sever Violation of Challenge and must be enforced for Fun and Challenge to be harmony together.

Ranger, Elementalist, Thief and Engineer.

When Enforcement of Challenge is Enforced: than you can say the word Fun.

-You can not talk about one without the other-

All Your Base Are Belong To Us?

My brain had a seizure reading this, but I get the point, that balance of the professions is key to competitive, and fun gameplay.

The problem with the premise of your argument though is that you determine what is fun, whereas someone else’s definition may be different. Eles do not DOMINATE any game mode, they’re decent to good in most, but are not the overpowering, destructive force you allude to.

And really, its not even a problem. The Ele (and Engineer) are the most difficult professions to play, and if they are played skillfully SHOULD reward the player with consistent victory. Otherwise, you’re punishing players who would pick those professions so that scrubs who noobcannon their way through the game with Warriors and Guardians can feel good about crushing Scholars.

Where is “skill”?
Where is “Challenge”?
Where is “Fun”?
Where is “Hard-Work”?
Where is “Effort”?
Why so many rewards: for free?
Change-Nerf: where?

I am so glad many mmo’s include new mmo companies do not tolerate this in their games. They make challenge+Fun, Risk-Reward first priority

If you want to play challenge+fun, risk-reward game(s), i will meet you there… until Arena net make serious change and take serious action

" Action expresses priorities and solutions "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZauXcGdhpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMvarJ28SYo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq6DxxFyNIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc6LZTwamPI

Imma let chu finish, but mesmer had one of the best videos of all time!

Where is “skill”?
Where is “Challenge”?
Where is “Fun”?
Where is “Hard-Work”?
Where is “Effort”?
Why so many rewards: for free?
Change-Nerf: where?

UKADAM.3910:

Its steal :/ I rarely use steal, the skills it take are awful besides fear and that one that stealth you cant remember the name for it.
I hope there change it with the new specialization

Un-traited steal is pretty bland. Traited steal can turn the tides of a fight.

Zero Day.2594:

Funny thing is, when it’s thief’s week, people will be QQ’ing and saying how there’s no counters…

Man, I can’t wait for the thief’s reveal just because of the tears…

They should have done thief first so they could hand hold people through their new abilities to counter thief’s new abilities.

tetrodoxin.2134:

…and how does that not affect other classes? Last time I’ve checked, chill doesn’t even affect thief weapon skills :P

It doesn’t affect initiative. It does, however, affect skill movements like the leap on HS or the arc of FS.

Cynz.9437:

i honestly wish they would just bring disablinbg shot to what it used to be, half of them time it gets you killed instead of doing what it suppose to do :/

And bring back the double shortbow quick pockets evade tank?! Way too powerful to bring back! Far too deadly a build! Madness!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
/s

(Yeah, that should be reverted)

DeceiverX.8361:

Ensign.2189:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The only limiting factor in sPvP is the perception that there’s only one way to win a match.

The major limiting factor in sPvP is that D/D just isn’t very good. Amongst people who seem to know what they are doing, there’s a ton of D/P (which is simply the best build right now), a decent amount of S/D, a bit less P/D (which serves as a ‘you must be at least this tall to proceed’ build that wrecks people who have no idea how to rotate), with a smattering of S/P (brave soldiers they are) and P/P (kitten Wirriam stop trolling). You never see D/D.

It’s not because people aren’t creative or aren’t trying it or are utterly single minded – hell, you can hop in a hotjoin (without matchmaking!) or jump on a smurf and will see tons of D/D around. It’s being played, a lot. It’s simply a huge handicap to whoever is playing it, and no one has been able to make it work well enough to get within shouting distance of tournament level player.

It’s not even about the skill. it’s more about how the current meta builds within the competitive scene prohibit its use largely. It’s a sub-optimal burst set against anything that isn’t berserker due to the overall lack-luster damage the offhand dagger brings with the nerfs, and brings no utility to the table when the current meta is focused so heavily on team utility and fast heals shutting down burst specs. It saw plenty of play before the whole celestial ordeal and the establishment of very specific builds on points/interactions because it could hold its own against glassy opponents.

Since the build provides so much damage in WvW in comparison, it sees a lot of play since it’s actually capable of bursting targets a bit on the more durable end, keeping the set useful, especially for blob periphery; EP’s incredible GvG record and wins against other major guilds have largely come from the extreme D/D burst thieves it uses to combat the backline before they start racking up damage.

The problem with D/D is that it won’t really ever be viable as long as CnD remains nerfed, the format remains based on small-scale skirmishes of inherently more durable builds, and power is not easily achieved as a stat. I say this in the respect that it depends heavily on having an excess of power and ferocity to overcome your opponent’s defenses to achieve it’s goal: burst damage. Otherwise it provides no utility and if incapable of performing a high-profile trade, is not worth using.

I think everything you said sums it up pretty well. Maybe with the new trait system they’ll rework Deathblossom and bring CnD back up to a 1.5 multiplier. Wishful thinking I guess.

Zero Day.2594:

Sagat.3285:

Reaper got necro/war (it can’t be necro/guard), so no to thieves getting shouts or stances,also guardian got mixed with ranger so let’s eliminate utilities already used by other specializations and prof used as mixed already war,ranger,necro.

Next most likely choice is probably thief/engi not with kits but gadgets.

Yeah that’s what I’ve noticed too, they’re recycling other class’ stuff into elite specs themed as the targeted class. It’s not really surprising, it is a lot less work to do and still yields a decent result.

So yeah:
Gadgets or something (nades?) – from engies
Shadow clones – from mesmers
“Stolen” (conjured) weapons – from ele
Stances/Trances/Meditations – from warrior (still up for grabs?)
And,
??? – from revenant

I’m guessing some other class will get something from the thief… shadowsteps? on a warrior? (lol…) maybe ele? (comes out of the ground, strikes down with the lighting, a flame bursts out of thin air, or a tornado’s in out of nowhere).

Well they said they were going to use already available skill types so that runes and stuff saw wider usage with some cool builds. I don’t really mind that they’re recycling utilities the same way they didn’t make any new weapons.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jrunyon.3012:

P/D doesn’t have to be a condition set at all. I have been having great success with power roaming in wvw.

Then you’re using it wrong.

Why in the world would you pick a weapon set that scales poorly with power?

Actually the only thing that doesn’t scale well with power on that set is the autoattack:

Auto:1 Bleed (0.49 mult/second)
Sneak attack: 5 Bleed (1.225)
Body Shot: 5 Vuln + Immobilize (0.5)
Shadow Strike: Shadowstep + 2 Torment (1.55 total)
Dancing Dagger: Cripple (0.5)
CnD: Stealth + 3 Vuln (1.0 or 1.5)

The only reason it’s really used as a condi set is the bleeds on auto are decent when used in a condi set whereas not so much with power.

SB has a better auto and better utility also which is why it’s used over P/D in a power set.

Auto: (.58 mult/sec)
Surprise Shot: Immobilize (0.6)
CB: 1 bleed (1.45) or 3*(1 Bleed (0.5))
Disabling Shot: Evade + Cripple (0.5)
Choking Gas: AoE Poison (~0.21)
Infiltrator’s Arrow: Shadowstep + Blind

Comparing the two, you can see that P/D actually scales nicely in terms of power burst, but the sustained damage is poor without even having multiple target capability unless traited. SB just fills the niche of ranged power better than P/D, but that doesn’t mean P/D can’t be used as ranged power.

Edit: 1 more thing on top of that, if you look at P/P where most of the “burst” is from unload (5 initiative), that’s only a 2.4 multiplier total over ~1.75 seconds for a “burst” of 1.37 mult/sec, where shadow strike (4 initiative) is an actual burst of less than a second (0 cast time,+ flight time of shot) and 1 mult of 1.55. I’d venture to say P/D is a better power set than P/P.

Maybe not SoH, but some stuff really should be rolled into baseline steal. The devs mentioned that there were certain skills that when you didn’t trait for them were crap, and when you did they became OP. I don’t think even fully traited steal is OP considering how many points you invest in it, but untraited steal is very bland. A 35 second CD shadowstep replaced by one skill is pretty “meh.” Bountiful theft would be a much better skill to roll into baseline since we’re thieves. You’d still have to trait to interrupt with SoH. Also, since the steal recharge rate is being reduced to 15% from 30%, I hope the other 15% is being rolled into baseline making the baseline steal 30 seconds.

Ok, so assuming they don’t double up on giving out new utilities, the following are out:
Shouts (Necro)
Wells (Mes)
Traps (although we already had them)(Guard)

Since we’re supposed to get new utilities (hopefully) the following are out:
Signets
Traps(repeat, I know)
Venoms
Deceptions
Tricks

Types of skills left:

AI stuff

Consecrations
Meditations

Physical
Banners
Stances

Kits
Gadgets
Turrets
Elixers

Survival
Spirits

Arcane
Cantrips
Conjures
Glyphs

Mantras
Glamours
Manipulations

Spectral
Corruptions

Stuff that could fit thematically with a thief specialization (imo):
Meditations (more like a fighting monk at that point)
Physical (explained earlier)
Stances (explained earlier)
Gadgets (we could have a hidden deadly gadget up our sleeve)
Survival (too close to tricks imo)
Conjures (-.- our new support specs while we sit at range, we make our own shadow themed bundles)
Glyphs (similar to old GW1 Assassins’ Signet of toxic shock and the like)
Mantras (similar to the monk fighting idea)
Manipulations (thematically, we could manipulate our opponents through subterfuge, more of a debuff version of deceptions. See my ideas for marks)
Marks (explained earlier)

Likely for other classes imo:
Warrior: Survival, consecrations, meditations (Wa/Mo style)
Engineer: Arcane (imbuing their devices with arcane energies), glyphs, signets, physical (implants/enhancements)
Ele(tempest): Mantras, manipulations (of elements), spectral, stances (if sword is given)
Ranger(druid): Manipulations (of nature), glyphs, arcane

Likely thief skills in order of likelihood (imo):
1) Stances (competing with tempest)
2) Manipulations (competing with ele, druid)
3) Physical (competing with engi)
4) Glyphs (competing with engi, druid)
5) Marks (not currently a utility actually)

MadVisions.4529:

snip

endless stamina:
regaining endurance for an evade:
with no vigor: 10sec
with vigor: 5sec
with vigor+ endless stamina: 4.54? sec
so this replaces a 10% dmg trait and helps me get my evade 0,45sec faster back… thx

snip

This bugged me also. If endless stamina were 50% instead of 20% it would be a decent trait. Before everyone jumps on saying “50% OP!,” this would simply be a 50% increase to the effectiveness of vigor. So if standard endurance recharge is 5 per second, regular vigor is 10, and 50% would be 12.5. This would mean that since it takes 50 endurance to dodge, you’d get one dodge every 4 seconds instead of every 5. This is just 1 extra dodge every 20 seconds, assuming 100% vigor uptime.

Math:

Regular: 50/5=10seconds
Standard Vigor: 50/ (5*2)=5
Previewed Endless Stamina: 50/(5*2.2)=4.54
Suggested Endless Stamina: 50/(5*2.5)=4

I’d really like to see some GW1 hexes worked into thief as “marks.” All of them could be melee cast range with a rollover to activate the marks.

Augury of Death would probably need to be a melee range cast with a rollover that lets you activate it to shadowstep to a target and deal damage (like mug as a utility). It should be able to crit though since you have to be in close combat for it to hit, meaning it’s not as much front loaded burst as mug (like how necro’s chill of death can still crit). Altenatively, they could replace it with the original Scorpion Wire, but have Augury of Death as the name.

I think Mark of Insecurity can almost go into game with minimal balancing. A longer CD, remove the self disable, and just make it so healing is 20% less effective (stackable with poison) and boons expire 50% faster.

I don’t think Shadow Prison needs any changing. Shadowstep to target foe and chill them for ~7 seconds.

Siphon Strength would also need minimal changing. Target foe gains weakness (pulsing application for 10 seconds). You have a +33% chance to crit hit on them.

Zero Day.2594:

Yeah I know it was a joke.
But I clearly remember them saying the some class will get access to shouts… Might or might not be thieves. It wouldn’t make much sense having someone/something stealthy “shout”… Then again, it is a game, and it is ANet. We will just have to see. I’m just preparing for/thinking of what’s the least desirable for me – that is torch with shouts. “HEY GUYS! I’m HERE!!!!! <waving the glowing torch>”.

Bandit specialization….. we’ll be stand ins for the queensdale NPCs!

Stances are the most likely in my head. There’s a lot they could bring back from the GW1 thief if they did that:
Flashing Blades
Unseen Fury
Way of the Assassin

Physical skills could be cool if they were feats that affected foes (the opposite of tricks which affect the thief):
Shattering Assault
Temple Strike
Iron Palm

Marks if they were more like hexes from GW1 might be possible too:
Augury of Death
Mark of Insecurity
Shadow Prison

Shouts was a joke in another thread

King Noob IV.3560:

I have never seen a d/d thief in like forever so I’m wondering why d/p thief is SO much better that absolutely no one plays d/d thief in spvp. I even see some s/d thieves as well

I play D/D usually in unranked. That said, D/P offers better defense, control, and gap closers in addition to it not needing to land CnD for stealth. 5/5 skills in the set are useful as opposed to the 3(4)/5 in D/D. The only thing you really lose for gaining this advantage is a 1.0 multiplier (half an auto attack chain).

SoulSin.5682:

not like guardians needed help to kill thieves either way.

^^^QFT

I’m not particularly worried that anything will change. Thief vs guard was already an uphill fight depending on their build. Now they’ll just have another build that’s similarly hard to fight.

Meh.

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sagat.3285:

They would never make a specialisation that doesn’t fit at least one mode name are just names, thief couldn’t have gotten traps because we already have them and they will be better after traits changes. Since it’s supposed to be a mix, with thief rifle I expect thief+war.

We’ll get rifle and shouts!

“BOOM! HEADSHOT”-Increase next ranged stealth attack damage by 50%

“NO-SCOOOOOOOOPE”-+50% Crit Chance for 7 seconds

“GET REKT!”-Crit hits apply 1 stack of vulnerability (10 seconds) for the next 10 seconds (no icd). Break stun

“Come at me bro!”- Taunt up to 3 enemies for 3 seconds

I think those would be sufficiently troll-y enough and fitting for the thief.

As funny as that sounds, there’s is a decent chance, considering they did say something about some class getting access to shouts.

And yeah thieves getting traps wouldn’t make sense much by what they said, but for some odd reason (maybe the introduction of ascended tier) I don’t believe them (maybe the weird nerfs, and the weird buffs/adjustments) much anymore.

Meh. At least gw2 isn’t the only game in the world.

Well, guardians are getting traps, so at least we dodged that bullet.

…..unless 2 classes get traps…….

Sagat.3285:

They would never make a specialisation that doesn’t fit at least one mode name are just names, thief couldn’t have gotten traps because we already have them and they will be better after traits changes. Since it’s supposed to be a mix, with thief rifle I expect thief+war.

We’ll get rifle and shouts!

“BOOM! HEADSHOT”-Increase next ranged stealth attack damage by 50%

“NO-SCOOOOOOOOPE”-+50% Crit Chance for 7 seconds

“GET REKT!”-Crit hits apply 1 stack of vulnerability (10 seconds) for the next 10 seconds (no icd). Break stun

“Come at me bro!”- Taunt up to 3 enemies for 3 seconds

I think those would be sufficiently troll-y enough and fitting for the thief.

Sorel.4870:

Tarkan.5609:

Sagat.3285:

Doggie.3184:

All pulls are broken and they’re apparently impossible to fix.

Not the engi one at least for me.

actually it is – i mainly play engi and thief, and the pull bugs out so often
sometimes the opponent doesnt get pulled the whole way or even bugs back to the place he was originally at – making you have to interrupt pry bar by weapon switching out of the kit if you started channelling already (which often fails -> important skill on cd)

Same here: I play a lot of both engi and thief, and both pulls are equally bugged imo. The most common bug being the foe being knocked down, but not pulled to your character. Magnet pull is a bit more useful though, because it is unblockable.

When I play my engi every once in a while, it is just as buggy, but the reason it doesn’t feel quite as infuriating is that it’s one skill on a kit rather than a specific utility skill that continuously fails. 4/5 skills are still decently useful. I’m not saying both don’t need to be fixed, just voicing my opinion on the perception of one being more successful than the other.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Eodwen.2613:

really?! I yell kitten it failed again!

How does it fail you? I mainly use it for interrupt because if I want to get close to my target I just walk towards them. :/

“Obstructed”

’cause blades of grass in between you and the target.

Strangely enough, I’ve been using ScorpWire for as long as I can remember but that never happen to me. I can even pull people down from the rampart.

Well, if you watch that weaponless dueling video again, you can see it happen right around 30 seconds. There is at least 1 short pull against a mesmer later and maybe another obstructed again (didn’t feel like watching the entire video again), but Scorpion wire messes up enough that I don’t usually include it on my bar.

Sagat.3285:

I rather have extra slots to carry different stolen items instead of using the same one twice like that trait…

It would be cool if steal was F1, use stolen item was F2, and improvisation gave you F3 with the same item.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Eodwen.2613:

really?! I yell kitten it failed again!

How does it fail you? I mainly use it for interrupt because if I want to get close to my target I just walk towards them. :/

“Obstructed”

’cause blades of grass in between you and the target.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

What happened to Burnfall anyways? That guy always made me laugh.

This is the last thread he posted in. I think he got frustrated that thief wasn’t going to get nerfed just to make his life easier.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/sPvP-Thieves-gameplay-concerns-possible-solutions-merged/first

Black Frog.9274:

If they ever fix P/P, I could go for a Rifle and P/P thief. Force Recon ftw.

I think they’re tryi g to shoehorn P/P into a condi role though with the torment on interrupt. If that stays, you could get confusion/poison on steal, bleed on auto, torment on interrupt, and you wouldn’t need to dump initiative into unload.

Vallun.2071:

EremiteAngel.9765:

with the new shield and well skills, as well as alacrity, mesmers are more than equipped to deal thieves a fatal blow and reverse the age-long sentiment that thieves counter mesmer

until thiefs new specializations come out, those will also counter mesmer

Right? New trait was hinted at called Helseth’s Demise. It’ll probably show up in the new spec.

Nephrite.6954:

“If you’re complaining about Thief, you don’t play one.” -Jon Peters

You forgot the part right before that though (probably because sarcasm doesn’t come through in typed format well)

“EHRMAHGAWD! Teef 50% damage reduction in stealth in stealth! OP broken thieves destroy all other classes! OH EM GEE!”

For reference and future use

DarkSyze.8627:

Eodwen.2613:

I don’t want to get into the topic of griefing, However I do want to point out that engi and war have much greater ability to cover ground and escape zergs. Maybe it is because people have always though stealth as a cheap trick in the MMO genre that they lash out at thieves. And keep tagging is a valid tactic in wvw.

What I do want to point out is that the OP solutions are as vague as saying plz nerf thief. He makes no specific suggestion of any change on any particular skill. Change stealth trap revealed duration to 1 min +: This will probably have 0 impact whatsoever or will end up being broken. Change cds and initiative for stealth skills: Ok but how much? Which skills do you find problematic? Bp Hs combo is already at 8 initiative and thief has 12 base initiative. Infusion of shadow doesn’t work with stealth stacking. CnD cant provide perma stealth and SR is 60 seconds long. Op’s third suggestion makes no sense to me so I can’t really comment.

Also the point of both wvw and spvp is not to kill the other player to win. I don’t understand why people are so fixated in killing the thief/bunker engi etc. The game is balanced in a way so you can win via other ways. The real problem here is not that the thief stops you from winning but that you want to kill him just to kill him and you can’t .

I Disagree with you.

“ Nothing worth having comes easy "- " Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty "

We other profession besides… are the ones doing all the work with difficulty: making all the effort and going through pain except thief profession?

" I was taught that the way of progress was neither swift nor easy "

Why thief profession way of progress is swift and easy?

" All things are difficult before they are easy "

We other profession are still having difficult with thief profession: how did thief profession become easy without difficult? How did thief profession get reward without difficult? How did thief profession get reward without risk while we get risk than reward?

" Good things do not come easy. The road is lined with pitfalls "

How is it Good things come easy for thief profession? How is it thief profession immune to line in the road and pitfalls? We other profession have to try harder to get Good things and go to line road with pitfalls and not thief profession?

Do you understand now?

It is not about winning or want to win against thief or be fixated in killing the thief, it is about thief profession being a Exceptional Profession who take short-cuts to -attain- everything, anything for doing absolutely nothing!! While we other profession are the one is punish, suffer and restrict for taking the long way working hard to attain even the smallest thing

Is This What You Call Win!

Is This What You Call Balance!

What I understand is that you refuse to follow your signature. The thief is challenging for you to fight against, and instead of learning from it by continuing to play, you have flatly stated that you will not continue to challenge yourself and grow until it has been made easier for you through nerfing others.

Zero Day.2594:

Nephrite.6954:

New buffs, new opportunities but still worried about future nerfs. If the buffs stay as it is then, we’ll definitely have a better chance winning 1v1s. Oh and you can now crit and apply condis on turrets. lul bleeding turrets.

That’s a turret change that applies to everyone.

I was playing on my staff ele in unranked last night. This change is great.

Ensign.2189:

Maugetarr.6823:

It’s not just that there’s limited condis on D/D, it’s the pre/post cast and the very short evade frames of DB. If it were made more controllable and useful as an evade, it would be powerful in both a power and condi setup, possibly bringing D/D up to something like S/D.

I don’t think there’s anything you can do to Death Blossom to bring it up to the level of S/D without causing serious balance problems (particularly at very low levels of play) or radically reworking the skill. The set naturally lacks the strong engage / disengage tools of the other melee sets, relegating it to all-in, go for broke play pattern. That pattern becomes less and less viable as play skill increases, and I don’t see any reasonable change to Death Blossom that would alter that.

Access to a reliable evasion skill would let the set brawl a bit better, opening the window for diving in and making it a little less all or nothing…but even with such a change it’d still be a set for styling on people, not for serious competitive play.

Well if the made it a 300 range whirlwind attack that slid you instead of leaping, it would actually become a nice evade that requires aiming to land the full stack of bleeds, thus buffing the skill while raising the skill floor on it so that it rounds out the set better. The skill could then be used similarly to how flanking strike is.