Guild Wars 2

Well, I tried 11001 out tonight. 10k backstab in pvp. Meanwhile (except maybe for S/X builds) acro feels a little underpowered. I guess the best defense is a good offense now.

Well, sounds like we have our burst or die builds back. Time to go signets.

Thank you for listening to the community. I will be prepurchasing soon.

Kageseigi.2150:

DeceiverX.8361:

No no I mean benefits for being revealed, like RT

Now, THAT’S what I’m wanting! I like the idea of Revealed giving a thief benefits… especially if Revealed Training is traited. The +200 power is nice and all, but it’s not that special. Why not give us some utility on top of that? Like the new Haste or Swiftness… or even Stability.

Or, if we want to get crazy, some damage reduction while Revealed… or decreasing Revealed duration by a third.

It would at least give some counterplay to revealing abilities that other professions have come Tuesday. And we would have to give up Panic Strike to gain it.

Of course, I still want the ability to Backstab while unstealthed if I’m behind the target. Just make Backstab possible only when not Revealed, and have Backstab apply Revealed, but perhaps with a shorter duration than usual. I don’t like having to enter stealth just to get access to the most powerful attacks.

It’d be cool if the new line revolved around bonuses while being revealed.

DeceiverX.8361:

Cyhann.2609:

Fun fact (iirc):
The change was actually brought in for WvW as a counter measure of culling problems the game had with stealth in there, which resulted in fewinvisible frames for thieves even after reveal.

I guess it stayed in spvp because the devs didn’t like to redo their current change in balance that quickly since the culling problem was solved soon after that.
You know pride ’n stuff.

It was never 4s in WvW, or if it was, it didn’t last beyond a patch cycle. I do believe it was done as a balance change for sPvP as the meta back when it was implemented was focused heavily on hyper-aggressive DPS from all classes, and stealth-based builds were just too strong with too few windows to attack them. At release, the revealed condition didn’t even exist, so stealth classes could repeatedly attack from stealth or re-gain it before it expired. This early change was just experimental I believe.

I’d argue at this point the duration could absolutely be changed to 3s, but it’d need some monitoring and might need revisiting with future changes to the sPvP meta.

It was in PvE/WvW. Lots of thieves left and I don’t think it even lasted two weeks.

They normalized CnD, so maybe?

Jongi.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jongi.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jongi.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Look, I’m fine with the price if I could automatically play all the content on my current account if I buy the expansion. The thing is is that I either have to buy a character slot or delete one of my characters if I want to try out the revenant, which is part of HoT content. Alternatively, if I decide to not attach HoT to my account, I could get 5 more character slots to play the revenant and bank tabs, easily worth over $50 through the gem store. The “free” game still has value to veterans which is a major sticking point. If I got a free character slot in the expansion, I probably would have ordered it already.

In fact, marketing missed out on a way to sell themed bundles. If they had gone and done basic (1 char slot), adventurer (char slot + bank tab + other stuff advertised), and explorer (char slot + bank tab + crafting material expansion + other stuff advertised), selling it as a way nice convenience bundle and marketing it as you stocking out to explore all the new facets of the game, I probably would have picked up the top bundle instantly. $50 + revenant fees makes me hesitant.

You dont have to dish out money for that character slot though. You can buy it with gold so its free. The only thing you would have invested in it is time, not money.

My time is worth a monetary amount actually. If I’m forced into repetitive tasks I don’t necessarily want to do in order to use part of the game already I paid for, the time used to collect gold for that specific purpose could be given a real world monetary amount.

Just because the revenant is going to be released doesnt mean you have to play it. Its your choice to play it, and if time is money then you better pay up for that character spot. You didnt get all the space to play every class in the first place, why should this be any different? You paid for those classes right? So why not say we should actually have 9 character slots instead of 5, or in your case 6?

I just wanted to include that I actually have 13 character slots, and all of them are full. I did buy them with real money because I believe in supporting people and companies I perceive as valuing me as a customer. I still buy actual CD’s from bands I like to support the artist. This, to me, is locking a feature behind a secondary paywall which I don’t appreciate. It’s as simple as that. I’m obviously not going to convince you to see it from my point of view and vise versa because this is an argument over the feeling of perception of how a company has treated a long time customer. It feels like I’m being charged extra for something given to someone else for free.

Its not locked though, the revenant is just being released as a playable profession. If you dont have room for it make room. I can understand that having multiple necromancers can be appealing due to cultural armor, animations and what not. What I would suggest, if you havent already, is to play the revenant in the beta to see if you would actually want it. If you want 1 of each class no matter what, well then you have 3 options that I can see, delete a duplicate, buy another slot with either gold or real money, or just sit there and wait and see if ANet gives out another slot. There really isnt much else anyone can suggest.

Make a suggestion, which I wasnt expecting a new character slot anyways since they are sold on the gem store. I can understand why people might of thought they would, but I wasnt expecting it in the least.

But that’s the difference in how other veterans have perceived the hype. The revenant does have us excited and was advertised as a feature of the expansion, and now is sold as either locked behind a paywall, timewall, or goldwall. This is getting into the crux of the matter though as to why you’re not angry and a lot of people are. You weren’t expecting the revenant slot to be included. A lot of us were expecting to be able to jump right into it and be able to create the class if we bought the expansion, but that is not the case right now. We could though if we bought another account. This whole thread about entitlement is the dismissal of people’s disappointment about key selling features not being included within the base package. It’s not a feeling of entitlement, its’s a feeling of being disregarded you have enjoyed and supported the game.

Jongi.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jongi.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Look, I’m fine with the price if I could automatically play all the content on my current account if I buy the expansion. The thing is is that I either have to buy a character slot or delete one of my characters if I want to try out the revenant, which is part of HoT content. Alternatively, if I decide to not attach HoT to my account, I could get 5 more character slots to play the revenant and bank tabs, easily worth over $50 through the gem store. The “free” game still has value to veterans which is a major sticking point. If I got a free character slot in the expansion, I probably would have ordered it already.

In fact, marketing missed out on a way to sell themed bundles. If they had gone and done basic (1 char slot), adventurer (char slot + bank tab + other stuff advertised), and explorer (char slot + bank tab + crafting material expansion + other stuff advertised), selling it as a way nice convenience bundle and marketing it as you stocking out to explore all the new facets of the game, I probably would have picked up the top bundle instantly. $50 + revenant fees makes me hesitant.

You dont have to dish out money for that character slot though. You can buy it with gold so its free. The only thing you would have invested in it is time, not money.

My time is worth a monetary amount actually. If I’m forced into repetitive tasks I don’t necessarily want to do in order to use part of the game already I paid for, the time used to collect gold for that specific purpose could be given a real world monetary amount.

Just because the revenant is going to be released doesnt mean you have to play it. Its your choice to play it, and if time is money then you better pay up for that character spot. You didnt get all the space to play every class in the first place, why should this be any different? You paid for those classes right? So why not say we should actually have 9 character slots instead of 5, or in your case 6?

I just wanted to include that I actually have 13 character slots, and all of them are full. I did buy them with real money because I believe in supporting people and companies I perceive as valuing me as a customer. I still buy actual CD’s from bands I like to support the artist. This, to me, is locking a feature behind a secondary paywall which I don’t appreciate. It’s as simple as that. I’m obviously not going to convince you to see it from my point of view and vise versa because this is an argument over the feeling of perception of how a company has treated a long time customer. It feels like I’m being charged extra for something given to someone else for free.

Jongi.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jongi.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Look, I’m fine with the price if I could automatically play all the content on my current account if I buy the expansion. The thing is is that I either have to buy a character slot or delete one of my characters if I want to try out the revenant, which is part of HoT content. Alternatively, if I decide to not attach HoT to my account, I could get 5 more character slots to play the revenant and bank tabs, easily worth over $50 through the gem store. The “free” game still has value to veterans which is a major sticking point. If I got a free character slot in the expansion, I probably would have ordered it already.

In fact, marketing missed out on a way to sell themed bundles. If they had gone and done basic (1 char slot), adventurer (char slot + bank tab + other stuff advertised), and explorer (char slot + bank tab + crafting material expansion + other stuff advertised), selling it as a way nice convenience bundle and marketing it as you stocking out to explore all the new facets of the game, I probably would have picked up the top bundle instantly. $50 + revenant fees makes me hesitant.

You dont have to dish out money for that character slot though. You can buy it with gold so its free. The only thing you would have invested in it is time, not money.

My time is worth a monetary amount actually. If I’m forced into repetitive tasks I don’t necessarily want to do in order to use part of the game already I paid for, the time used to collect gold for that specific purpose could be given a real world monetary amount.

Just because the revenant is going to be released doesnt mean you have to play it. Its your choice to play it, and if time is money then you better pay up for that character spot. You didnt get all the space to play every class in the first place, why should this be any different? You paid for those classes right? So why not say we should actually have 9 character slots instead of 5, or in your case 6?

Which is exactly my point. $50 + revenant fees. I was given the opportunity to try out all the classes when I first bought the game. I am not given that opportunity if I buy the expansion without paying an additional fee or disconnecting the expansion from my account. I’m glad we agree on something.

Jongi.7612:

Maugetarr.6823:

Look, I’m fine with the price if I could automatically play all the content on my current account if I buy the expansion. The thing is is that I either have to buy a character slot or delete one of my characters if I want to try out the revenant, which is part of HoT content. Alternatively, if I decide to not attach HoT to my account, I could get 5 more character slots to play the revenant and bank tabs, easily worth over $50 through the gem store. The “free” game still has value to veterans which is a major sticking point. If I got a free character slot in the expansion, I probably would have ordered it already.

In fact, marketing missed out on a way to sell themed bundles. If they had gone and done basic (1 char slot), adventurer (char slot + bank tab + other stuff advertised), and explorer (char slot + bank tab + crafting material expansion + other stuff advertised), selling it as a way nice convenience bundle and marketing it as you stocking out to explore all the new facets of the game, I probably would have picked up the top bundle instantly. $50 + revenant fees makes me hesitant.

You dont have to dish out money for that character slot though. You can buy it with gold so its free. The only thing you would have invested in it is time, not money.

My time is worth a monetary amount actually. If I’m forced into repetitive tasks I don’t necessarily want to do in order to use part of the game already I paid for, the time used to collect gold for that specific purpose could be given a real world monetary amount.

Look, I’m fine with the price if I could automatically play all the content on my current account if I buy the expansion. The thing is is that I either have to buy a character slot or delete one of my characters if I want to try out the revenant, which is part of HoT content. Alternatively, if I decide to not attach HoT to my account, I could get 5 more character slots to play the revenant and bank tabs, easily worth over $50 through the gem store. The “free” game still has value to veterans which is a major sticking point. If I got a free character slot in the expansion, I probably would have ordered it already.

In fact, marketing missed out on a way to sell themed bundles. If they had gone and done basic (1 char slot), adventurer (char slot + bank tab + other stuff advertised), and explorer (char slot + bank tab + crafting material expansion + other stuff advertised), selling it as a way nice convenience bundle and marketing it as you stocking up to explore all the new facets of the game, I probably would have picked up the top bundle instantly. $50 + revenant fees makes me hesitant.

DeceiverX.8361:

Maugetarr.6823:

DeceiverX.8361:

I probably should have written out Applied Fortitude instead of just typing AF.

Better?

Yep, sorry. It totally went over my head that you were including that when not seeing the name. I play sPvP and PvE a lot more than WvW now so stacks usually don’t get counted into builds for me.

Again, apologies.

All cool. I should have been more explicit. I think I wrote it out while making the post, but made a grammar mistake in the sentence, deleted it, and then just wrote the acronym neglecting to consider I hadn’t referenced the importance of guard stacks earlier in my post to make it clear.

It’s a huge cut, though. These put the thief to mid-tier HP on berserker crit builds, meaning the % gains relative to baseline HP were much larger and thus more important with our terrible cleansing than most other classes. While warriors could benefit like 12% of their base hp as additions without changing gear to better combat conditions, these bonuses would provide over a 40% gain – and yet the class is still weak against conditions.

What’s funny is that come the changes, I think a berserker warrior with a hammer will be able to one-hit-kill a thief in WvW that doesn’t build vitality, and if PT is removed, we’re looking at no way to deal with any real burst aside from building soldier’s, as even Valkyrie’s bonuses are not enough to combat what should be just a single mesmer shatter as well.

Yeah, i think I’m going more burst or die again. Protracted fights aren’t going to favor us. 11001 will be the first thing I give a whirl. Acro is still decent for sword builds with weapon evades, but i was using 50036 to support D/X. If I can just push out damage now, invigorating precision could make up for the loss of vitality from traits/trait lines. For example, a 7 k crit from backstab is about 1k health returned. Bouncing autos from shortbow could keep you alive in group fights. Maybe we’ll see a Thief version of a (55) monk in assassin’s gear.

Lol the forum censoring on “kitten monk”

DeceiverX.8361:

I probably should have written out Applied Fortitude instead of just typing AF.

Better?

Yep, sorry. It totally went over my head that you were including that when not seeing the name. I play sPvP and PvE a lot more than WvW now so stacks usually don’t get counted into builds for me.

Again, apologies.

DeceiverX.8361:

T raw.4658:

DeceiverX.8361:

Karl, can we get confirmation on Practiced Tolerance, too? The streams/updated notes say Ferocity, but you said on the stream that it’s been unchanged except bumped up to 10% (as it’s currently 7% Vitality).

I feel like giving crit strikes more damage and not giving it any durability bonuses, while in-line with the design of the trait line, puts thieves in a bad place against conditions and ultimately hurts build diversity and the class as a whole by forcing more players into defensive trait lines due to the crazy low health pool and terrible condition cleansing we have. This trait helps immensely, especially while offsetting the losses to Applied Fortitude in WvW while people run +40% condi food and have inherently higher damage outputs.

Thanks!

Uhh please don’t listen to this guy.

We want ferocity based off precision.

Maybe if you just PvE. I’m one for going full-on damage, but PT’s vitality bonus is a pretty big loss, especially with condi damage buffs incoming and the removal of AF cutting our hp down by like 4k from what it is now.

You have to have over 5k precision to get 4k health out of it.

apocom.3172:

Streamlined Kits are back to normal:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/RIP-perma-swiftness/page/2#post5169529

Pretty sure Lock On will be the new meta…..

With my engi I wouldn’t touch this trait. Giving up perma swiftness because engi has a hard time against thieves?

I mean you could have a static discharge thief hunter now that could be fun with shaped charge, glass cannon, kinetic charge, goggles, and rifle turret. 20 vuln, 2 quick shots from surprise shot, the static discharges from the 2 surprise shots and the analyze. Might pull my engi out of mothballs for that.

Thanks for dropping by Karl. That order is great. Thanks for the clarification. I’m a little surprised that it didn’t go

Aegis
Stability
Protection
Regeneration
Retaliation
Resistance
Fury
Swiftness
Might
Quickness
Vigor (since the trait already gives you this one)

since the theme seems to be taking defensive boons first, then offensive boons second, but seriously, the order is great on a much loved(and hated) trait. No need for change!

They said a few seconds later that he thinks it was 90%.

glock.6590:

,If you people think arenanet will keep things that way , you are being delusional. Its obvious that 60606 thief build will be the most ridiculous overpowered crap that ever existed.

And think about that build being 66606 because they basically combined DA+ crit strikes together by putting executionner in there and removing stats from trait lines and adding extra stats to the PvP amulets instead.

You can expect heavy nerfs to DA for sure and SA because people QQ’ed about it for so long.

SA won’t be meta because it can be counter built too easily with lock on and analyze. You could be locked out of a mechanic for too long. I’m not saying you’ll get killed by the engi, but 1/3 of your traits could be rendered useless. You can’t be locked out of CS or Acro.

About the cable company comparison: if I have to start thinking of ANet as a cable company, im going to be bummed out. They’ve been a company that has been pretty nice to its players which is why this whole thing was shocking to a number of people.

I was annoyed about this whole thing because it reads as
“Buy HoT now! Get access to all the new features! (Asterisk: Revenant charges may apply. Fees may be waived for sacrificing a current character.)”

BlazeQ.1095:

Logged in this morning to see the pre-purchase announcement. Immediately grabbed my credit card, clicked on the link, Saw the price of $50 with no character expansion slot. I’ve since put my credit card away.

I did the same last night. The additional pay wall to play the new class you just paid to have access to was a major let down. Yeah, I could delete one of my other characters, but usually I expect to actually be able to use all the content I just paid for. It’s like hidden fees in a bill, and that’s why it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

The problem isn’t the price, it’s how they structured the bundles.

All of my character slots are in use. If I buy the $50 HoT, i cannot play the Revenant, part of the content I just paid for, without either deleting a character or buying another slot.

Alternatively, I could buy the game for $50 and as long as I don’t attach it to my current account I get 5 new character slots, empty bank slots, empty crafting material slots, etc. This means I lose out on over $50 worth of gem store add-ons for connecting the expansion to my account.

Adding a single character slot in the base package so I could at least access all the content I paid for would go a long way towards ameliorating the complaints that they are getting. They’ve essentially created a sudo-tier at $60 for current players to access all of the content.

Add another Package. You could have 4 packages then.

1)New Player. Buy the Original Guild Wars 2 + HoT ($50)
2)Upgrade your account. 2 additional character slots, 1 bank slot + HoT ($50)
3)Deluxe. 3 char slots, 2 bank slots, mini, Rev finisher, GH decoration, Glider skin ($75)
4)Ultimate. 3 char slots, 2 bank slots, 4k gems, mini, Rev finisher, GH decoration, Glider skin ($100)

It’s not about the price, it’s about the perceived value that veterans feel like they’re getting versus a new player.

It’s not the $50 that bothers me, it’s having to forfeit the included copy of the core game (which I could use for character slots and storage) to attach it to my main account.

Bubi.5237:

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

To clarify: $50 is the price of the expansion. We included the core game as a free bonus to make it easier for new players to get into it.

Is it 2 separate codes or it’s 1-in-2?
Can I add HoT to my “old”-account while using the “free” as a separate?
Or I’ll lose the extra account if I don’t want a fresh-start?

That’s an interesting way to look at it. I lose the bonus if I attach the expansion to my account. ):

The issue here is though you can spend $50 and get 5 character slots and an empty bank (and honestly just transfer all your non-account bound stuff to the new one), or you can spend $50 and get to use your current characters and stuff.

Adding 2 char slots and 2 bank tabs if you owned the game would have been a nice “Thank’s for playing.” Then:

1)people who didn’t own this game could have bought this expansion for the $50, getting the original and the expansion (getting the new account).

2)People Who owned the game would have thought they were getting something for already having played (still for $50) and staying loyal

3) They could still have the special edition pricing tiers with the additional stuff offered

The problem is they basically told the veteran players “we’re going to charge you the same for less”

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

To clarify: $50 is the price of the expansion. We included the core game as a free bonus to make it easier for new players to get into it.

Having been a player since headstart weekend, this is a slap in the face. If this expansion is as big as the original game, maybe it would be worth it, but the information so far has indicated in no way that the expansion is that big. If it is, you guys needed to say that a lot earlier and reveal a lot more to build it up as something that will double your current experience.

What this says to veteran players is that “we have your money already, we’re pretty sure you want the game, we’re just going to include a lot less because we know you’re loyal.” You guys could have easily made the expansion $50 and made a bundle deal $60 and it would have been much better received than this. Or at least given 3-4 character slots to existing accounts. I’m not even upset about the $50 price tag. After nearly 3600 hours on this game, it’s given we’ll worth the original price in terms of fun. The middle finger you guys have given a veteran customer is pretty harsh though.

Edit:
Put another way, I feel stupid for passing up 5 character slots and empty bank tabs, but accepting those would punish me by not connecting it to my account.

Including 2 char slots and 2 bank slots for people who already own the game would have been a nice “thank you for already owning this, here’s some stuff to help you explore the new content”

http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgcBvAWoAmQ~

Might as well give trickery burst a whirl.

Might replace the first CS trait with signets of power and run Haste, RFI, InfSig for a triple stun break.

Don’t know if the devs are still taking suggestions on these traits, but here goes:

Quick Pockets is a boring add-on that is basically just replacing Hastened Replenishment. It’s not as combat changing as Sleight of Hand which it’s competing against. Instead of 3 Initiative on swap, change it to 1 initiative on swap, and it reduces weapon swapping to 5 seconds (like warriors’ fast hands). That would change gameplay for the thief rather than just being a weapon swap buff.

Going to see how the vigor changes feel. I was thinking about 60066, but if the traits don’t really make up for the vigor nerf, might as well go 66006 and pump out damage faster than they can kill you. I’m sure we’ll eventually see someone analyze whether it’s better to knock off 3/4 of a second for a dodge, gain life from your crits, or have extra ferocity and fury.

This was coming from someone who was playing 50036 D/X, so i wouldn’t have the weapon evades to proc the new FG (blinds if anything).

Lich was complained about occasionally. It was counterable, because you could run, LoS, or reflect it, but it is annoying. Really the only complaint I’ve consistently had is the spinal shivers proc (especially in downstate if the +20% activates on top of the downstate extra damage). Eating a ~6k proc if you’ve won a fight is annoying.

Everything else, I dunno.

Sorry.

Laraley.7695:

StickerHappy.8052:

SlimChance.6593:

Engineer’s.. no debate

And you have to think, as If Engineer’s are direly in need of buffs for being in the meta.

LOL.

They have no perma swifntess anymore, ofc they are.

Does Heavy Armor Exploit have an ICD that I missed? It’s not OOC, but still….

Kageseigi.2150:

babazhook.6805:

Ragion.2831:

can someone please explain endless stamina to me. Is that 75% endurance regen (50% base + 25% from trait) or 50% + 50% for 100% endurance regen

It looks like they cut vigor overall by 50 percent than give that 50 percent back to the thief that takes acrobatics.

Is it that, or are we going to have 50% base, then have an extra 50% of that 50%?

Basically… will we have 75% of normal?

I think it will be multiplicative, not additive, so:

5 endurance a seconds base
1.5*5=7.5
1.75*5=8.75

So normal vigor now is 1 dodge every 6.6 seconds. (50/7.5)
Our Endless Stamina vigor is 1 dodge every ~5.75. (50/8.75)

OH NO! Reread and overlooked this:

Vigor: Decreased the endurance regeneration rate from 100% to 50%.

And the range was buffed on steal.

Neat!

After all the complaints, traited steal will have a shorter CD than before, while only fear skull and guard mace skill got nerfed (I know ranger duration is less, but it has better burst removal now).

Steal range increased.

Endless stamina was actually buffed to the 50% mark that we wanted.

Don’t stop is an anti chill trait, so we’re going to get more QQ about how it doesn’t affect us.

Last refuge is a selectable trait.

No ICD mentioned on lotus poison (here’s hoping there’s none)

Hard to catch is a respectable trait.

Not too bad overall.

Well ele was seeing some nerfs coming that got turned into buffs, so there’s some hope there.

Hey, they can reveal us and then moa us too.

……Waiting patiently for the thief stuff. Hope it’s good.

Zero Day.2594:

Solori.6025:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Solori.6025:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Please don’t apologize.
The problem isn’t about how difficult it is to play a thief.

The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

Of all the classes, a Master level Thief holds the advantage.
Only a Master level Guardian can proudly say that they have the edge over a Master level thief.

Thieves are OP to every other class except Guardian.

All classes under the control of superb Master level players, Thief comes out on top in every encounter except vs Guardians.

Of the 3 or 4 thieves I defeated in the video below, do you know that I would have died to thieves 30 or 40 times in the same period.

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Thats actually incorrect.

Coming from a mesmer PoV,I have actually watched most thieves fail against survival rangers, cele’s and cele engies. I have watched in a vacuum thieves do wonderful and horrible things to mesmer’s, warriors and especially necro’s. And I have seen them fail just as hard vs warriors, ele’s,ranger’s, mesmer’s, and engies.

Haven’t seen to many good necro’s in T2 as of late. Maybe they are all running around in EU :I or a zerg

No, no. We must base the game on vacuums. You would think when the concept of conditions would enter one’s mind when we discuss optimal conditions, but no.

But conditions are never consistent and do not help us accurately describe how totally OP the thief is.
SO we discuss vacuums instead, cause it’s easier.
I know this , our lord and crusader dark taught me.

In a vacuum against critters, typically squirrels… That’s the only way to balance a thief.

Spherical chickens in a frictionless vacuum.

Mesmers can’t melt steal-thieves.
Thief Profession is an inside job.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…

Thieves should have had F1-F4 skills, each as Steal but with different effects. For example, F1 = Steal + Thrill, F2 = Steal + Bounty, F3 = Steal + Mug, F4 = Steal + Daze — or whatever.

This way all these triggers will not happen at the same time using a single Skill.

So yes, let’s stay away from trying to balance Steal instead focus on the traits.

I just want to point out this is kind of a silly suggestion since one could just activate F1-F4 at the same time since they’re all instant-cast and do not interrupt currently-activating skills. It’d also give the thief access to four teleports which would be kind of insane.

What should have happened was Just giving the thief F1-F3, F1 being a separate teleport, possibly being able to be traited to turn into a Shadowstep, F2 being the “steal” skill itself, usable from melee only, which applies the effects and snags a bundle, F3 being the ability of the stolen bundle.

Now you’re looking at a virtue/shatter-equivalent where the cooldowns can be tracked separately and traits can be applied to different aspects of the class mechanic separately. Builds become more diverse and/or either specialized or higher APM like other classes involving teleports + effects.

As a side note, never – EVER – argue that mug being unable to crit is a disadvantage. It used to be able to, and I can tell you now that under current gear, I could one-shot any non-warrior berserker build in the game from pressing this one button if it were able to crit. It can’t crit, but its damage coefficient is extremely high, especially relative to other damaging effects after a teleport.

Its damage coefficient isn’t actually that high. It’s somewhere around 1.1, roughly equivalent to a sigil of air proc. The problem comes from food and multipliers on top of it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug

DarkSyze.8627:

yolo swaggins.2570:

DarkSyze.8627:

Lyrsen.6702:

DarkSyze.8627:

I want to share this with video evidence:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/S-D-Thief-Too-Strong-Discussion/first

Way to link a video from Sept. 20th, 2013…

Any serious change from Sept.20, 2013?

Here is another one

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback-Merged/page/76#post4000084

Arena net: CC Charles,

" Hello everyone, Due to the amount of threads about thief and its gameplay impact, we have decided to open this thread in which you can discuss your concerns about Thieves in PvE, sPvP and WvW ".

That is a topic dump so anet doesn’t have to read the same thing over and over. Kinda like mounts.

The reason i post was to show evidence of no serious change to thief profession from 3 years ago to now. Also to show evidence of players including thief players sharing concern with thief being OP since that time to now.

" Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it "
George Santayana

" Trying to tear down the past prohibits you from building up your future "

" You can’t undo the past… but you can certainly not repeat it "
Bruce Willis

" We have a hope of succeeding if we learn from our past mistakes and pull together to make the hard choices "
Carl Levin

I think this quote is more relevant than all the ones you throw around

Well, at least cele might get slightly nerfed by this. They said the breakover point for condis doing more damage was 700, and even with a base stat increase I wouldn’t expect to see too much more condi damage added in. The meta cEle build has about 540 condi damage for example, so we should expect to see less damage per tick. Not to mention they said burning was going to get a slight nerf in general to make up for the intensity stacking. Lets hope that by making all of these damaging condis intensity stacking that condi builds will have to apply more constant pressure rather than bursting condis and kiting while you melt.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The one I don’t like is the change on Cripple and Chill. Cripple is a hard counter vs leaping Warriors and Guardians…after the patch, they can just ignore them. kitten soldier class QQing so hard not liking all the Caltrops all over the place.

At least we can heartseeker away from a Reaper now.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sebrent.3625:

We’re not asking for a nerf, Zero Day … at least not those that have most recently posted.

Instead, we’re discussing how ArenaNet needs to stop having traits that increase the effectiveness of skills/mechanics by +100% as it leads to the scenarios mentioned where either the skill/mechanic is UP without the trait (since balanced around having the trait) or the skill/mechanic is OP with the trait (since balanced around not having the trait).

Someone could try to say "but it could be balanced around +50% effectiveness … in which case it would be both as it’d be UP without that +50% it was balanced around and it would be OP with +100% given how that’s double the increase it was balanced around.

No matter what they do, it will always be OP when traited. It is a bad idea. They should just leave this alone than releasing a trait that everyone knows that will cause huge headache.

Just look at the number of things they have to rebalance to make this “2x uses” to work — it’s a waste of development time — it’s like Venom Aura all over again; nerfing venom to balance around the shared venom.

Yeah, this is how it’s going to be. Maybe they can move the steal reduction of SoH into baseline (to maybe 25 seconds). Untraited steal is going to be even more mediocre now. It’s going to be the exact situation that they said they didn’t want where untraited skills are crap until traited.

Woohoo! 50036 is my favorite. Glad to hear others are running it (probably more effectively than I do).

Nice aggressive gameplay.

Zero Day.2594:

I was under the impression that they were using a completely different engine.

(Also hence no capes, except for but-capez)

I thought it was a heavily modified GW1 engine, but I could be wrong.

kaikalii.4198:

Sounds pretty cool, but there may be a few problems with a couple of these ideas.
1. While the #3 does sound cool, I don’t think the engine has the functionality in place to make it work.
2. I don’t think that there are any weapon skills that are true stunbreaks, so I don’t think it could break stun.
Overall, neat ideas.

There were some GW1 hexes that triggered on opponents reaching a certain distance away, I think the underlying engine would still support it.

Mesmer’s Swap does, but illusionary leap needs to be used beforehand

DarkSyze.8627:

Dave.6819:

so the guy actually tries to play Thief and gets rekt and realises its not OP at all. then on his “main” class he gets rekt by thieves and says they are OP…. and cries for a nerf. facepalm …….. (i think that says it all)

you people should be literally banned from posting or your posts should be deleted. cuz if Anet will take your post seriously then we Thieves will be nerfed even more. and if you played one you probably realised theres nothing OP at all. #hardcorefacepalm….

so please stop. dont post such nonsence… its just a l2p issue / build issue / how to counter classes issue / time your dodge issue and etc etc. not some " omgomg thieves op…" issue. kthnxbai

Here is my research investigation result:

- 1st report thread of thief profession being problematic

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/If-you-believe-the-Thief-is-OP-post-in-this-thread/first#post76275

- 2nd report thread of thief profession being problematic. Arena net delete thread very fast: why? why nor investigate it and resolve problem first is present?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-damage-is-OP/first#post67999

- 3rd report thread of thief profession being problematic.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-1-thing-that-sucks-about-a-thief/first#post66188

- 4th report thread of thief profession being problematic.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Broken-Stealth/first#post90491

- 5th report thread of thief profession being problematic

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Rework-Thief/first#post83648

- 6th report thread of thief profession being problematic

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/What-will-next-nerf-be

---

So now for 1 year later report thread of thief profession being problematic

- 1st report thread of thief profession being problematic: Arena net delete thread

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-Cheapest-Class

- 2nd report thread of thief profession being problematic

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Anet-could-you-explain-your-logic

- 3rd report thread of thief profession being problatic

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Stealth-has-to-reward-you-the-better-YOU-are

- 4th report thread of thief profession being problematic. Arena net remove evidence from youtube.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thieves-uncatchable

- 5th report thread of thief profession being problematic.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Need-a-Hot-fix-for-Thief-damage

- 6th report thread of thief profession being problematic

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-being-unfair-with-stealth-and-kitten

---

2 years + New year= 3 years of same thief profession being problematic is “nonsense”, “build issue”, “L2P issue”, “counter issue”, “how to counter classes issue”, “time your dodge issue”, “and etc etc”?

Argumentum ad populum

Donut.6914:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ritt.3069:

Phantom Master.9582:

Donut.6914:

snip

Being honest here… you sound like a pretty mean dude. What’s the point of this post?

Just let it go man. Personal merits and skill aside, this guy is obviously a super strong contender and the rest of us bads just don’t compare.

With a name like Donut, you know he is the voice of reason.

if you’re crying on the forums about a slight nerf to a trait that was too strong (while also getting plenty of buffs) then you’re bad, plain and simple

just git gud

It’s not about the fact that it was (slightly) too good, but the combination of 2 of the minor traits wont be as good as 1 of the ones they are replacing, and eliminating the 10% damage trait. Sure, FG could be changed, but the possible change shown is not a good one.