Guild Wars 2

Mrbig.8019:

@amaterasu & caed

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Overall it’s just a matter of tastes,and i can agree the signet can be better in certain situations ( for istance, when your burst fails to kill your opponent and he still has invuln/stunbreakers up) and worse in other ones ( like when your opponent already used his stunbreakers/invulns).

Always ShS on Z axis, if not then use the 1200 range on the ability. You can’t shadowshot past 900 range. I don’t have an issue with haste thieves unless I have no ShS… and then it’s G_G no matter what they use.

evilapprentice.6379:

I get all that. My point is, alot of builds are based around high endurance regen, or high mobility… Some people even use their 25% Movement signets. Mobility and endurance are very important in this game, and most classes that have access to high mobility/endurance regen tend to take it, and they’re generally not based on CD’s (and when they are, they’re generally very short CD’s). I Don’t see how a spec without some sort of movement speed buff (SoS, Fleet shadow) can reliably position backstabs against players running those types of specs who understand how a thief works.

If you’re only using backstab for damage then that’s your problem. You have other skills that do considerable damage on a far more consistent and less restrictive basis. Use backstab for burst, not consistent DPS. Wear someone down then burst them, or burst someone then pressure them to death (the latter tends to work better in most situations as people are forced to be on the defensive rather then counter burst you). You have innumerable amounts of gap closers. No one should ever escape you. If they manage to break distance don’t underestimate surprise shot/clusters. Don’t put yourself in poor positions because you want to get a backstab off.

Just as a side note; people have tried to Haste stealth clip bug me and I can ShS out and have a free kill due to their lack of endurance.

Advice to people having trouble with it: Watch your HP bar, don’t wait for something to pop up next to your dead body.

Mrbig.8019:

That is a question that was always lurking in my mind while watching your vids ( and jumper’s, before he quit).

y u no haste ?

Isn’t it a better choice overall ?

It seems that only in NA thieves use kitten signet , in EU it’s a feast of haste, stealth clipping, thieves ( me being one of them).

What is the logic behind choosing ths signet over haste ?

Haste is an all in. While it has it’s fair share of usefulness in situations (stomps, res, damage) it comes with severe drawbacks. The issue with haste is that is drains your endurance and leaves you with no defensive whatsoever. You can’t dodge, you either burn your initiative on bursting someone with haste or you hasted disabling shot and burn through it all before your haste even ends.

If I see a thief with haste it’s incredibly easy to avoid heartseekers through an immobilize, chill, cripple, evade (shortbow 3), daze, stun. However on his end he eats a my entire burst with Assassin’s Signet and no way to dodge it. With signet you gain your damage bonus, do your additional damage, have no adverse side effects, and do so with a shorter cooldown (all while keeping initiative). I see no benefit to running haste over Assassin’s Signet due to the trade offs. It’s an all in ability that is easily countered and punished verses a safer yet just as effective damage boost.

That being said the X point trait in Critical Strikes (called Critical Haste) is amazing. Half the CD for half the duration yet no negative drawbacks. Just keep track of the CD on it (30 seconds) and you won’t have any issues with RNG.

Moisttowlete.8074:

Also can anyone answer, I’ve been watching your videos. Can you hit backstab from a distance and “steal step” to target and still get the backstab trigger?

Yes.

Moisttowlete.8074:

So your burst combo is.

Signet + Venom -> Black Powder + Heartseek -> mid air steal -> into backstab?

also since you play a roamer, how do you feel about Signet of Shadows. Just started fulfilling the roamer roll for my group and that extra speed feels so nice for getting around the map. But cant tell yet if that damage loss is too extreme to justify it.

That is full combo, I don’t use it unless I know that they don’t have stun breaks – otherwise you will never hit backstab.

SoS is good, find which you like better and use it. Infiltrator’s Signet is another viable alternative. Find a play-style, refine it, and use what fits that play-style.

Woops, wrong account. That is me however.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We of course understand that solo players would prefer a separate queue from premade teams, and it isn’t off the table as a future improvement. The trade off here, besides the extra development time, is that high rated solo queuers would get a better experience (never facing premades), at the expense of all team queuers getting a worse experience (longer queue times)

I am a “top tier” player. I would rather queue with a team than solo. But you have already killed 90% of our population and there are currently no top teams on NA. When you can pug and 500-100 every team without even trying to play the game then there is an issue with your system. The game has become repetitive, boring, and completely lacking any form of competition and structure. The reason that people want solo queue is to increase the population and grow the game. But when you consistently face premades as a solo player you will quit (check your dwindling numbers). I guarantee teams will not mind the extra times in queue waiting to play an actual game instead of alt tabbing for 80% of it. I’m not about to quit because I have to face premades as a solo queue player, but the opposite. Fighting pugs as a team is a waste of time, isn’t fun for either side, and doesn’t promote growth of skill or the game as a whole.

You guys dropped the ball, and are refusing to admit it. Clean up your act and pick up the pieces or continue on your path with a failing game.

Sifu.6527:

Narcarsis.5739:

Mrbig.8019:

Because you hit like a wet noodle, because pistol whip is countered ridicolously by armor, protection, retaliation and stability, because you’re basically building for venoms while using just the only really useful one and worthy to be shared in this burst meta, or rather the devourer one, while an ele /longbow warrior could do that as easily, while having more damage, more sustain, and a faster CD to reapply them ( pin down = 3 secs immobilize every 25 secs, instead of devourer every 36 ; magnetic gras every 12 secs instead of devourer every 36 secs, especially after last patch).

I agree for a total overhaul of the thief class, because currently there’s nothing this class can do in high end PvP aside burst, and you know it perfectly, otherwise you would be running your venom share build instead of D/P burst.

I run D/P because my role is Roamer/Damage. You’re confusing Venom Share with a damage build. It’s a support spec, stop trying to do damage and start using your unlimited immobilizes and large amount of stuns to do your actual job: Controlling their damage so that yours can land their burst.

How you think another class has more CC astounds me. Sword 2 has no cooldown, is a teleport with an immobilize, and a stun break with a condi remove. Again, stop trying to lock people up and do damage with pistol whip when you’re speccing for a support role. If you have a 5v5 you give your team 25s of immobilize and 10 seconds of stun with venoms alone.

Both D/P burst and S/P venom share is viable. You have to have the right comp for both. If you’re running around with venom share and no DPS then yes, it’s useless. Also, the thief class does not need an “overhaul”. Condition thief needs a rework, yes. Pistol whip could use a small change, yes. But the rest of the class is fine. If you can’t play it well then go to something else instead of crying for a complete change. The game will not cater to you.

I could be wrong but immoblize does not stack in duration.

Immobilize stacks in duration, however stuns and dazes do not. Immobilize is a condition – the latter 2 are not.

Mufa.1326:

Narcarsis.5739:

Vyndetta.9415:

Attrition thief: N/a(lf the build pst)

Rainbow Unicorn Death Blossom: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c33V-BFSwk0-S5FOkd0;9;6TJJ;437A19-26-KZV8-BX4jwmAjwmA2Fe

That is not attrition d/p

lol there’s more than one type of attrition build, you’re rather ignorant. If you want attrition d/p Cruuk’s is 0/0/30/30/10. I would put points in a different place than Cruuk would. And you, on the other hand, I don’t think anyone cares what build you’re running.

Mufa.1326:

Narcarsis.5739:

Mufa.1326:

LoL, I do not have problem killing asuras. That is not what topic is about.
Also, I own caed, foo. Cannot take lessons from someone that I consider a joke.
And third caed is completely different build. He is burst and uses basilisk, so of course he does not have a problem hitting stunned target. He does not need to backstab repeatedly moving targets like I do.

Ahahahaha this is where I found out your were trolling. =]

Remodel is not required, any decent thief can backstab a moving asura.

P.S. I don’t play asura – they have ugly faces.

You should not make comments that miss the topic saying that ‘decent thief can backstab a moving asura’. Everyone CAN backstab moving asura, even bad thieves, question is if it is more difficult with asura than with other models and answer is yes.

You do not even play build similar to mine so how would you know?

And I am not trolling, everything I said is true. Picking asura models gives no-tradeoff advantage to people and it harms certain builds more than others.

For example, it will harm more backstab attrition build like mine than your backstab burst build, especially because you rely on landing one backstab and you use stun to help you, while I rely on landing consistently many of them without the help of any cc.

There is no difference in the difficulty of stabbing the smallest asura versus stabbing the largest norn. They both have equally distinguished backs.

P.S. If you think I use basilisk to ensure a backstab you haven’t watched me play.

Vyndetta.9415:

Attrition thief: N/a(lf the build pst)

Rainbow Unicorn Death Blossom: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c33V-BFSwk0-S5FOkd0;9;6TJJ;437A19-26-KZV8-BX4jwmAjwmA2Fe

bloodbrother.4570:

ty for info. for the record your probly one of the best burst thiefs I watched on the twitch. juss gatta watch out for the engie 100 nades. if I don’t burst em down they burst me down …ha

Disabling Shot will become your new BFF =]

Kline.9561:

really nice builds

but like cruuk I also play a daze lock style build and I do well in team fights
but then again I don’t roam on my own like I see cruuk usually do
I try and find group fights.

but I have to disagree with it being a selfish build
I find it very supportive to other team mates trying to burn down a target
locking a enemy out of there character seems really effective and supportive to me so I kinda view it as a support dps build.

my take on daze lock thief
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cF3R3;0Rwk0-S5FOkd0;9;6T9T;434A5;024BTNV8U;1jwmAjwmA1Ff

daze lock with a bit more damage
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cF3RR;0Rwk0-I5FOkd0;9;5TT-9;109B34A;14;0Ywl0U;1Ewk2Ewk25BL
I switch out the 8th skill for whatever enemy composition I’m fighting against so I use quickness or trip wire etc… sometimes.

hate it, love it, judge it I don’t mind I like to play these builds and the reason why is because Anet needs to make other thief builds more viable because I hate being pigeon holed into glass cannon builds to feel effective there never feels like any variety with the thief class.

To each their own, I may try them sometime just to mess around – they look like fun ^^

V Man.8512:

One thing that will deter more and more new people from getting into TPvP is the constant rank req increase. The majority of people will only ask for, say, 40+ or 30+ rank people, some even ask by QP’s and many will require you to play their way or no way.

This is more a mindset issue imo. It’s fair enough to want to seek out people of a similar skill level to you. Just remember that there are plenty of skilled people that simply joined the pvp side of gw2 a bit later than you did. To simply rule out anyone under rank 40 is pretty silly if you ask me. Especially when rank can be farmed easily with one other person when you just swap cap shrines. Then it becomes more a “time spent” indicator than a “skill” indicator.

It will lead to what you had in GW1 in HA where unless you played from the beginning (or had some skilled friends to take you under their wing) then it’s practically impossible to join a highly ranked team (or any team at all).

The rank req Always Rises so this is just going to get more and more pronounced as the months and years fly by.

Rank doesn’t mean skill, it shows time spent. As the game progresses this will become more apparent and others will either open their eyes or be surpassed by some low rank “nubs”.

Mehlkee.6804:

Hardcores drove away the player base by abusing the block bug(and other exploits) and sticking with their elitist team mates to gain any edge they can, when their core is not online they just team up with other players in the top QPs because they are online ALL the time. If I’m just as good a single player as these guys, but have to play with 4 unorganized people because I can’t get into this ‘clique’ of decent players. Well yeah I’m gonna quit the game and move onto more green pastures. Hardcore players can play with themselves the whole 40 of you on NA. You guys never seem to log off or get out of your comfort zone, then complain about not enough people around to compete against?

I play with anyone who’s personality doesn’t conflict with mine so long as they ask. Stop being shy and timid and just ask people for a game.

Jumper can have my spot.

-Caed

As a side note to answer some other questions here is the link to the sPvP version; https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Caed-s-Thief-Walk-through-and-Guide-Mini/first#post1402934

Sorry to both of you, I haven’t looked at this thread in a while due to me having another in the sPvP section.

Aelendor.9457:

Hello Narcarsis,

You posted a lot of comment about how good d/p spec is and stuff, but how does it work? I mean rotations, what skill to use or such a thing. Do you have a short video or anything?

There are a couple different combinations you can use for your burst, and I would suggest checking out my stream! ^^ www.twitch.tv/narcarsis

brunohstein.9038:

I don’t agree with two points you made:

1. Why pistol in a backstab build? Wouldn’t it be more useful to have Cloak and Dagger available?

2. I’ve been using a bleed build since I started playing this game and I don’t get why you use a precision amulet. Wouldn’t carrion provide more damage and more survivability?

1. Stealth is more reliable with Pistol 5 + Heartseaker, you guarantee stealth instead of risking everything on Cloak and Dagger hitting. Pistol also is not as useless as dagger (quite the opposite)

2. Critical hit chance and Power both don’t benefit the build much, however when you go into sigils and look at the options then critical hit chance outweighs power due to the bleed on crit. The survivability also is more beneficial with toughness. Since you have a lower health pool your shadows rejuvenation and assassin’s reward will heal you for a higher percentage of your maximum health with the rabid amulet versus the carrion amulet. You benefit more on both cases from rabid than you would from carrion.

bloodbrother.4570:

bs build link is broken. been watching ur stream. u put out so much damage so quick. i play a build similar to cruuk with s/p and p/p. been working good so far as a far node assault. whats ur opinion of pistol whipp?

The links work, you just have to paste them in the URL instead of clicking on them.

Cruuk’s build, in my opinion, is useless to a team unless the other team plays poorly. It’s a selfish build in the fact that it’s only good 1v1. Outside of that it doesn’t do anything. If you sit someone who can kill him 1v1 (a ranger) on home node then you force him to go mid. If he goes mid he does nothing, since he can’t burst anyone and has no real effect on a teamfight. [Please note I don’t think Cruuk himself is a bad player, I just don’t think the build does anything if played against properly. However if you don’t react to it correctly then you will be outnumbered in mid and lose the fight/game.]

For a pistol whip burst spec I would say that retaliation will kill you before you kill anything else. That and I think PW is a clunky ability, and I personally don’t like it. (Sword 2 is the bee’s knees though)

Venom share is strong with S/P because the weapon set maximizes utility (Sword 2, Pistol 4,5 and even stun on Pistol Whip).

DXIEdge.2789:

Hey Caed, been watching your stream and your video by manvil rock and I just have some questions hopefully you can answer so I can get better

1) When initiating fights, do you normally want to do your “combo” or start off in stealth first?

2) If you initiate a fight in stealth, do you precast backstab and then steal?

3) why fire Sigil over air?

4) when do you start to realize “I’m gonna lose this” and Gtfo?

5) when your doing team fights, what prompts you to stay in the back with short bow or burst down a target?

6) when backstabbing do you just cast it or should you always be behind?beside it?

7) If I’m starting thief, should I learn D/D first or go straight to D/P?

1. It depends on the targets there, my position, theirs, and how long the fight has been going on before I get there. If a target is squishy and out of position, or has no cool downs, then I can burst them with a full combo. However if they have cool downs then a stealth steal/stab is more efficient. Tankier classes generally require a full combo.

2. If I am bursting and in stealth I steal/stab (if they have no defensive boons such as aegis or protection).

3. Fire is 200 damage below air but is an AoE. It has a potential damage of 4.9k total versus 2k total.

4. If you miss your burst in a 1v1 on an even fight, leave. If you’re outnumbered, leave (unless you are in a 1v2 and can kill one of them in ~5 seconds, however you have to outplay them completely). If you have no cooldowns it is generally a better idea to leave. There are always exemptions to this, where it can be a better idea to stay alive and hold a point as long as possible rather than running away – something you’d have to judge for yourself.

5. This goes back to my answer to your first question. It depends on positioning, team hp (on both sides), cooldowns, etc. You have to gauge what’s more beneficial at the time.

6. Always behind/beside. If you’re not getting the damage bonus from backstab then surprise shot could be a better alternative for sustained damage.

7. Personally I think D/D is boring and dagger offhand is fairly useless compared to pistol. However it is easier to play and more forgiving to mistakes. The most important thing is to get down positioning and timing, so whichever weapon set that feels more comfortable at first should be the one you use. Once you get the hang of positioning and timing then D/P is a stronger weapon set (if you didn’t already start with it).

Hope that answers your questions sufficiently. If not, or if you have any other questions feel free to ask.

10 gems per win please.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Well I came to this thread a little late but I am going to comment on this.

I have seen your thread with your builds you gave, they helped me. How can they help me find a team, and decent players? A team to where I can know that they are going to show up. But I guess this thread wasn’t about any of that… it was about how MMR will only make things worse for you and the hardcore players. Gee, how every feature in this game should only effect you hardcore players. I am going to say this slowly mainly because it was already said multiple times. Currently there is no incentive for casual players to want to get better. A ladder can help that. And the teams below the top 2 teams, will only learn from their mistakes, lack of communication, (maybe) not being 100% in-sync with teammates, etc. That’s why its a ladder. The players have to climb it with rating, and with rating the players get better.

I did not articulate my point, and in hindsight I made this thread at 2am without putting much thought into it. So let me explain what’s on my mind more clearly.

The reason I believe people are not so good at PvP is not because they’re incapable or skill capped. The issue is a lack of players. The problem stems from this; there aren’t enough people to practice against, to grow from, and to improve with. As you said it’s incredibly hard to find a team because there are so few people who have correlating schedules and mindsets. While matchmaking will help the community and possibly bring more players to the game there needs to be an additional effort into garnering a population increase. As I said in an earlier post the casual player base will continue to improve with a matchmaking, and this will benefit the game. But in order to truly grow the game’s PvP as a whole there needs to be more of these competitive players. These are the people who spend time developing strategies, honing their game play, and exploring the options and limits of the game’s mechanics. People that the casual players look to for advice, or structure. Without more of them the game will stagnate and the casual player base will become capped. This is because these people don’t have the same amount of time to pour into the game and explore what it’s capable of, not because they are worse mechanically. It’s the people who live and breathe the game that help it grow, and there needs to be an effort to bring more of these to Guild Wars 2 so that it can take off and develop.

Hope that’s a little more clear.

P.S. Glad to know that forum post helped you. Seems to be lost already.

All of you talk to each other and start a team.

Hammerheart.1426:

You learn faster from better players.

Yes and no.

The top players sit at the top, and give nothing back. I don’t blame them for that, why is it there responsibility to teach less skilled players?

But given the current state of the game, it might behoove them to take it upon themselves to educate the community, invite people to group with them and teach others how to be better at the game (besides cheese, swapping characters mid match is stupid and shows a lack of character). I only ever see top players with other top players, furthering the divide.

Back to what I quoted.

There are three basic learning styles, Auditory, Visual, and Kinesthetic (tactile). I guarantee that out of those getting stomped by the top teams, only a very small percentage is actually learning from the experience, because it fits in with their learning style.

Do I expect the top players to do this? Of course not. But I think it would help alleviate some frustrations.

I have been offering to help players with questions, builds, videos, duels, and pretty much anything that I can do to help them improve – and there are others who are willing to do the same. Take the initiative and ask, don’t assume they won’t help you.

Galli pm me later for duels/info

Mrbig.8019:

Narcarsis.5739:

I have offered to help people, improve the game, and raise the skill cap. The issue is that people aren’t willing to improve, very few people took me up on my offer.

I also never said the game was bad. It’s a great game, and far more dynamic than the general population realizes. But when people get stomped in games they leave, reducing the amount of players in the queue. Eventually it gets to a point where people either fight the same players, or stomp new players forcing them to quit. When there are only 2 good teams matchmaking will force them to play each other over and over again until one gets bored and quits (this is how matchmaking works, they will climb higher and higher and no one will be able to catch up). While new players will slowly start to get better and be in a good environment the competitive/advanced players will slowly leave the game due to lack of competition. From there you either get lucky and find the newer players surpassing the older generation, or they will become capped and the cycle continues. The game needs multiple teams are able to compete at a higher level, so that it causes the meta to form (it won’t happen when it’s just 2 teams) and evolve. Issue with that is that there aren’t enough good players at the moment to form these teams. It’s critical for the game’s health and needs to be assessed.

And what is the reason why there’re not tons of good teams ?

Do you really believe it’s why people are bad ?

WRONG

You would be astounished to find out how many skilled players are playing WvW, or simply are sticking to free tournys.

For example, i may consider me a skilled player, but i NEVER really wanted to pay this PvP seriously, because

1. No incentives

I never felt the need to do the jump from frees to paids. QPs are a ridiculous way to measure skill, without rating it’s just a joke.

I don’t even care to find a team, because competition matters very little if nobody can see I AM THE BEST: you may be top in QPs ladder, it says very little about your skill level, and very few people will take you seriously.

2. Balance issues

Too few builds, too few playstyles for class.

This is totally devs fault: they should have split PvE and PvP skills /traits from the beginning, curretnly every class is full of crap weapons/U-skills/ traits it’s not even funny, and they’re taking the wrong route on it with every patch ( the nerf to spirit weapons clearly demonstates it : spirit weapon nerf because the shield is OP in PvE while in PvP they were already bad, now they die with 2 Trick Shot hits and i roflmao).

I was an S/D thief, i hate aNet for what they did to the only real alternative to burst builds in high end PvP, in the attempt to nerf thief burst.

3. The tournament system and its rewards.

We all knew this.

Entrance barriers were too thick, PvP economy was a failure, and current Temple week clearly demonstated it.

it was not fun to lose at first round and lose all your tickets, that’s the reason why people were “less involved” to try paids.

Fix these 3 issues, and you’ll see PvP FLOURISH in this game.

You ignored what I said and came up with your own misconceived notion relating to the topic without addressing anything that I mentioned. Your arrogance is showing rather clearly now.

Rezz.8019:

It’s dead because all “top” NA players do the following in paid tourneys:
- start the match as mesmer -> drop timewarp -> change class -> have another person in team reroll to mesmer -> drop timewarp -> repeat and have timewarp there for each time fight = lots of qualifier points to show off to other 5-6 teams that still play PvP.

No one worth anything does this.

I have offered to help people, improve the game, and raise the skill cap. The issue is that people aren’t willing to improve, very few people took me up on my offer.

I also never said the game was bad. It’s a great game, and far more dynamic than the general population realizes. But when people get stomped in games they leave, reducing the amount of players in the queue. Eventually it gets to a point where people either fight the same players, or stomp new players forcing them to quit. When there are only 2 good teams matchmaking will force them to play each other over and over again until one gets bored and quits (this is how matchmaking works, they will climb higher and higher and no one will be able to catch up). While new players will slowly start to get better and be in a good environment the competitive/advanced players will slowly leave the game due to lack of competition. From there you either get lucky and find the newer players surpassing the older generation, or they will become capped and the cycle continues. The game needs multiple teams are able to compete at a higher level, so that it causes the meta to form (it won’t happen when it’s just 2 teams) and evolve. Issue with that is that there aren’t enough good players at the moment to form these teams. It’s critical for the game’s health and needs to be assessed.

P.S. Self Fulfilling Prophecy is a sociological term.

Mrbig.8019:

You’ll surely have a brilliant carreer, you have a great feel for it.

I already do, but continue to assume things about people over the internet. I’m sure it makes your feel better about yourself ^^

If they want to PvP they’ll play regardless. If anyone believes everything they read on the internet without checking it for themselves then they will have a lot of difficulty down the road.

I can’t find a team because there is a lack of good players in PvP.

So, in short: yes.

nastyjman.8207:

Narcarsis.5739:

Shift 1-4 = f1-4
` = f1
…
1-6 = standard

You have F1 on two keybinds? Why is that?

Also, is having the Heal Skill further from reach comfortable?

I have long fingers, the heal is easy to reach for me.
As for the double bind, ` is for steal, the others were for in case I decide to play another class.

Shift 1-4 = f1-4
` = f1
mouse3 = weapon swap
1-6 = standard
r-t = 7-8
mouse4-5 = 9-0
ctrl/alt = call/take target

When there is no competition there is no incentive or fun.

There is no competition because people suck at PvP.

People suck at PvP.

Results:
-No competition.
-No incentive.
-No fun.

Matchmaking won’t help when there’s still only 2 good teams in the game.

-The Truth Hurts

Edit: This was a catalyst for conversation, however it is true for the general population. The game needs competition and there are several ways to bring this about, but the most consistent – in my opinion – is to try to develop a community that helps each other improve so that when new players enter the game they have the resources to learn the game with as little frustration as possible.

Med.6150:

hharry.1967:

Human reaction time is actually 200ms.

I hate reading this and I play a thief myself. Human reaction time is not 200ms and everybody claiming that should actually read the whole study on on it, including the difference between auditory and visual stimuli.

Reaction time for visual stimuli is ~200ms, however this requires the subject to have their finger on a single key

Fix your keybinds. My thumb is always on Shadowstep, 100% of the time. 0.5 seconds is more than enough time to react, and you can react in less than a fourth of a second if you know that something is coming. Things like this are the difference between good and great players.

I kill bunkers as burst DPS…

Deniara Devious.3948:

The character is dead in less than 0.5 seconds. That is faster than human reaction time.

I guess you’re the only human here then. 0.5 seconds is a VERY long window to react in. Please improve your reaction time before you talk for the entire human race.

My point being is that fixing portal bug is not a pressing issue… if you’re going to be stupid enough to jump through it when you know it kills you then the other team deserves the points.

Since jumping through the portal is such a necessary part of winning the game…

Mrbig.8019:

It’s not about damage only, it’s about trade offs.

For istance, a D/D aura share ele has tons of CC by himself ( immobilizes, chills and stuns) while giving auras to all your party, with correlated boons, without giving up damage ( they just need to slot few arcane abilities instead of cantrips, and it’s a pretty common set up, especially in NA where you play).

Great CCs, good AoE damage, fury/swifteness + auras for the whole party with almost 100 % uptime.

If you think a venom share is better, then explain me why teams prefer to stack eles instead of bringing a venom share thief in their comps.

I’m not trying to do damage with that build, the point is that build is not even that great at support as you think.

In fact, you’re running a different build, because burst thieves are superior in every way, taking THE MAX the thief class is capable of ( best trait combinations, best utilities, maximized capabilities) and bringing it to the table: no other class can do that job better than the thief.

I run D/P burst because I enjoy that playstyle. I’ve played it since beta (albeit not in the same way). Burst thief is good at bursting, yes everyone knows this and no one said otherwise. But claiming that “It is superior in every way” is a complete falsity. Yes, Ele’s are the God class and everyone knows this — it’s a stale topic and a large majority of the community (including a significant number of top Eles) know the class needs to be toned down. However this is continually your only example of a spec that provides more team fight potential than venom share. Despite your continual rebuttal venom share is a viable and strong build. Just because you may refuse to use it and think that it isn’t viable does not make it so.

NinjaEd.3946:

BTW, the build links don’t work :/ Says bad link when I tried opening them. Maybe I’m not opening correctly but that just sounds silly.

Copy and paste the link into your URL instead of clicking them.

Geewoody.2017:

Not to be a jerk or anything, but isn’t the d/p build you posted pretty much the standard for every roaming build? I’m running an almost identical setup with s/p except for the elite. >.>

How often do you actually go for the backstab burst with D/P? Does the extra init usage ever cause any issues? Is it worth going for at all versus knocking your target around a bit with the bow and then mugging/SSing in for a HS spam?

Yes, the trait line is the same as a standard burst spec. The weapons haven’t been until recently (not to be conceited but I am responsible for that). Go for burst when you know you will down the target. Bursting someone and not having them down is a waste, and you will be out of position without accomplishing anything. Shortbow is amazing, use it a lot.

Mrbig.8019:

Because you hit like a wet noodle, because pistol whip is countered ridicolously by armor, protection, retaliation and stability, because you’re basically building for venoms while using just the only really useful one and worthy to be shared in this burst meta, or rather the devourer one, while an ele /longbow warrior could do that as easily, while having more damage, more sustain, and a faster CD to reapply them ( pin down = 3 secs immobilize every 25 secs, instead of devourer every 36 ; magnetic gras every 12 secs instead of devourer every 36 secs, especially after last patch).

I agree for a total overhaul of the thief class, because currently there’s nothing this class can do in high end PvP aside burst, and you know it perfectly, otherwise you would be running your venom share build instead of D/P burst.

I run D/P because my role is Roamer/Damage. You’re confusing Venom Share with a damage build. It’s a support spec, stop trying to do damage and start using your unlimited immobilizes and large amount of stuns to do your actual job: Controlling their damage so that yours can land their burst.

How you think another class has more CC astounds me. Sword 2 has no cooldown, is a teleport with an immobilize, and a stun break with a condi remove. Again, stop trying to lock people up and do damage with pistol whip when you’re speccing for a support role. If you have a 5v5 you give your team 25s of immobilize and 10 seconds of stun with venoms alone.

Both D/P burst and S/P venom share is viable. You have to have the right comp for both. If you’re running around with venom share and no DPS then yes, it’s useless. Also, the thief class does not need an “overhaul”. Condition thief needs a rework, yes. Pistol whip could use a small change, yes. But the rest of the class is fine. If you can’t play it well then go to something else instead of crying for a complete change. The game will not cater to you.

I play D/P, and exclusively D/P. But there are players who’s playstyle is not D/P or D/D backstab. While condition thief is not viable in the meta (or just in the game type alone) it is still an incredibly strong build and in no means needs a buff. A rework would make far more sense, allow the thief to do more than 1 source of conditions through the weapon set. However it is a good build to learn mechanics on as well as when to do certain things BECAUSE it is forgiving. Players can make mistakes, see them, but not be completely punished for them. Do I think it’s viable for high level play? No. Do I think it will help people learn the game? Yes.

Now, please try to tell me why S/P venom share is not viable. It is THE team fight spec and has by far one of the strongest team fight utilities in the game. While it may not do as much damage is has far more utility and takes more coordination to make effective. If you can’t manage to talk to your team then yes, it’s not going to do very much. It’s not a solo build and takes consistent communication, synergy, and adaptability to be able to play it well.

zone.1073:

http://www.twitch.tv/gasmaskftw/b/363009410 (3h 22min in)

You can see my team DTC fighting Gasmask’s team in paids at 3 hours, 22 minutes into that video. It’s in Gasmask’s perspective. DTC is running a warrior, thief, and ele as damage roamers that match.

Not to discredit your win but that’s a pug with some people I never play with… not sure that’s the best example – If it was from your PoV it would be a different story since you guys are on a team (http://www.twitch.tv/Vinhungry).

There are others, such as Teldo, Powerr, Helseth, Magz that would all be better since they have videos of their team playing.

Generally you do not want to 1v1 in a match. This is because it is very easy to be killed by another burst rotating back to their point – I should also mention that you have to outplay every opponent in a 1v1 in order to win. If you mess up they will kill you, and quickly.

If you must 1v1 there are a couple of things to remember;

1. Do not fight a battle where someone gets the jump on you, you will lose. Reset the fight and try again.
2. The best approach to a 1v1 is to burst and then bow the target to death (however this isn’t true with all classes/specs. Eles and Symbol Guards should be handled with the opposite. Bow them to ~60 and burst them hard for the kill. If they don’t die keep the pressure up or switch back to bow, or run.)
3. Don’t be predictable; when people memorize your play-style or rotation they will generally win. Best way is to learn to be reactive, don’t have a rotation that you go through at all. Juke people out of stun breaks with basilisk venom but save your steal/burst skills.

The two hardest classes to 1v1 are Eles and Warriors. The rest are the same.

A warrior will take over half your health in one whirlwind. Play safe and use your shortbow almost exclusively, only burst when you know they will die (be careful of shield block and endure pain). If you get stuck in melee vs a warrior you will most likely die.

For Eles I recommend not fighting them at all. If you have to then I give then the same thing applies as for warriors. Timing the burst is critical, if you don’t kill them with it then they will heal to full in a matter of seconds. Try to fight on a point and let your arrows bounce, keep them poisoned and make sure they don’t land their burst on you. Use clusters when they’re close and burst when you know they will die.

For any other class get the jump on them, burst, and either finish them with a Heartseeker or switch to bow and finish them with that.

I still haven’t gotten around to putting my videos up on twitch, when I do you can watch and try to pick out some 1v1s – maybe they’ll help.

Yes, node assault isn’t a very viable spec if the other team has an Ele (which always seems to be the case). The reason being is that there are no other classes with sufficient condition removal in a 1v1 to be able to outlast the bleed damage. However it can still be dealt with by a high damage burst class rotating to defend their home point. If you don’t see them and they jump you w/o a stun break you will die.

Venom share is incredibly strong but not a hard build to play and also one where I find isn’t as rewarding as backstab. I personally play D/P backstab, because I feel that if played correctly it has the most benefit of any spec.

The difference between D/D and D/P burst potential is minimal, while the trade off for it is huge. While you say D/P has less burst that is actually incorrect, it has a tad bit more, and gets stronger the lower initial health of the target. The only benefit of D/D is a faster and easier combo that is more forgiving on positioning. D/P takes a second to set up, however the damage comes at roughly the same time as D/D (maybe ~0.10 seconds slower). While this is more than enough time to use a stun break (as you can easily do with D/D) it’s a combo that you save until you know the target has no escape. Other combo’s can also kill squishy targets very easily (such as steal/backstab out of stealth). Additionally D/P provides an enormous amount of team utility with Headshot and Blinding Powder, as well as an excellent chase skill (when chilled) with Shadow Shot. Another benefit of D/P is that the stealth is guaranteed, whereas the stealth on Cloak and Dagger can be negated by a skillful player with a blind, dodge roll, or daze.

That’s actually supposed to be a force sigil, should have checked over that before I posted it my bad – fixed.

As for the venoms it’s for the CC. While it may provide more healing to take Spider Venom the damage increase isn’t as high as you think. There are other sources of poison on most every team comp. Haste is incredibly useful for stomps, getting people up from down state, and even capping buffs in temple (not to mention the normal use for burst pistol whips).

I’ll bring some up for you when I get back later tonight, for the meantime http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnMs92_yWXA&t=3m35s

Copy and Paste them into your browser instead of clicking on them. It’s an issue with the forum redirect not the link.

Yes, these are builds I run.

For the bleed spec, you sacrifice a lot of survivability without any change in damage. Between rolling, death blossom, and time in stealth with Shadow’s Rejuvenation you will not run out of initiative – making the 30 point trait in acrobatics useless. While a reduction on Caltrops cooldown is good it does not outweigh the amount of utility that comes from Shadow Arts (Condition Removal on stealth, Stealth on Steal, along with turning every stealth you have into a heal). It gives up too much for things that give very little in return.

As for the Dagger/Pistol build; that build has no damage. I am confused by what it’s trying to accomplish. In a capture the node setting the role of a thief is generally to end fights as quickly as possible due to it’s lack of utility (venoms are an exception.) The D/P build you posted seems to have no purpose to it. No damage, no utility. It gets rid of your main team utility, refuge, in favor for a signet that won’t do much for you or your team. Shadow step is generally better than Roll for Initiative due to the fact that it has higher range, juke potential, instant, controllable, and clears damaging conditions on return. Thieve’s Guild is good, but very situational. They are easy to kill and have an incredibly long cooldown. With the AoE comps that are running around Basilisk is a much more viable option. It’s up very often, and is a heavy CC that puts pressure on your target. The traits lose all your damage potential and only give you Bountiful Theft and a third dodge roll in return. Furious Retaliation has a very high cooldown for a fury buff, Side Strikes or Practiced Tolerance would be more beneficial since you get fury off of steal with Thrill of the Crime. A large portion of damage comes from auto attacks, so the increased initiative gain is rather minimal. Vigor is also a very minor thing due to Disabling Shot on shortbow. Overall you give up a HUGE amount of spike and sustained damage for very minor things that don’t benefit you very much.

Hope that clears things up!