Guild Wars 2

Pre-Patch if you used Steal with Basilisk Venom up you would stun your target, overriding the one second daze on Sleight of Hand. Post-Patch the daze now overrides the Basilisk Venom. Would seem like unless this is intentional (which I would like to know the reasoning behind it then) that it would be relatively easy to revert this change.

I may not be good, but I’ve been around since beta.

And so have Vyndetta, Skovos, Zombify, Taym, and Davinci.

SYNC

Should start streaming actual gameplay soon, CPU should be coming today… I hope…

Evan Lesh.3295:

Problems like this are always very hard to track down because they are so vague and infrequent. The best I can do is relay the information to someone with more insight

I know your tricks Evan. There’s no hiding from me.

o.- Always watching.

Divinity.8041:

I enjoy the pvp in this game because I hotjoin and slay noobs 24/7, but I thought TP now TC was supposed to be good players?

I love it when people talk trash and act like they are good, and then get owned by actually “good” players.

You know how this false sense of security happened? The broken tpvp system where a group of average players would stomp most of the competition.

How does the above happen? If you have 5 players working decently in a pool of 1000, it is not that hard to rise quickly to the top.

You know what this reminds me of? WoW Season 2/3 People getting gladiator titles on little known servers, and not playing in the BG9 (a list of servers supposedly had the best pvp people) pool of players, because the gladiators were not playing “against good people.” Basically nobody respected them because they were playing against noobs and getting the title.

Looks like they just got exposed.

Going to say roughly (if not exactly) the same thing I did in a different post.

Overall you’re not going to find anyone who, when asked about a tournament, will tell you they’re going to lose. It shows a lack of confidence and doesn’t really lead people to cheer you on. That being said – we were overconfident and they brought their A game.

I played poorly the first two maps and I got kitten on =]

As for anyone who is bashing CC, they played extremely well. They rotated efficiently despite the complete lack of voice communication during the tournament, and they deserved to win. All of them are laid back, well mannered during our whole experience here, and a fun group of people. In game and out of game I honestly don’t know why people complain about them after getting to meet them.

The games, despite it being 3-0, were fairly close at times. They weren’t one sided, and CC knows that. But they kept their head in the game and they played extremely well.
If you want more in depth analysis to each game you can ask me in a different medium. I’ve already looked it through. Besides the lack of warm up for our team (our own fault) there were issues that we need to work out as a team. We’ll be back in 2 weeks for the MLG showcase, and we’ll be sure to give them a run for their money!

Cheers ^^

Volrath.1473:

Whats up with SOTG?! is it gone for good?
There is already little to no communication at all, without the guru’s SOTG, whats left?

I believe someone else will be heading SOTG.

Alkaholic.3875:

Batmang.5421:

Alkaholic.3875:

Batmang.5421:

Alkaholic.3875:

I didn’t think so, was just curious cause someone said they need a slight nerf. Were both rangers in [SYC] spirit rangers?

its not HGH its bomb/nade thats needs to be toned down. I think the real source of the problem is nades though. And of course they were both spirit rangers :p

That’s sad that one could cheese their way to the championship. They prolly play their classes way better than me but this seems like quite the copout.

They didn’t “cheese their way to the championship”. They are great players that played the most effective builds atm. They definitely deserved to win. They played the best and none of their players got carried.

I don’t think running 2 spirit ranger is cheese (3 would be imo) although i do think its imbalanced to have more than 1 unique class on a team. Whats really sad is that one of their core members (skovex) who is an amazing player had to step down from the team because he plays ele/war and he knew they wouldn’t be able to win with an ele or war.

I didn’t mean to discredit or disrespect any of the players in [SYC]. I’m sure I’ve run against each of them at some point while being a hotjoin hero and been face down awaiting the rez timer. But anytime a team has 2 of a particular build, one that utilizes passive buffs, one that’s generally regarded as…ummm…not so high ceiling ish…it begs the question of balance. They used the tools put in front of them by A-Net to win, kudos to them. I just would like my fav game’s top pvp representative to not have a cloud of question hanging over them.

I may not be stating that right so maybe I should just kitten…

Both Vyndetta and Twerp dislike spirits, they find it boring to play. The same way I find S/D boring to play. The difference being is that I have an alternative that I can play viably, they do not. In my honest opinion they are the two best rangers I’ve seen in this game, along with Battosai in EU. I don’t question their skill levels, I rely on them, and they almost always deliver. If there were a different build they could run in this meta I believe they would run it, but spirits far outweigh the alternatives.

That being said almost everyone else ran spirit rangers.

I think people overrate S/D thief.

Ziddy.2583:

http://i.imgur.com/apqJFdm.jpg

Nice! xD

Acandis.3250:

Narcarsis.5739:

For everyone who’s ever told me that .25s reaction time is impossible.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9453/2xif.png

That was my first try. Give it a go: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/reaction_version5.swf

Seeing as how you’ve shown me that maybe like 3 months ago. And that screenshot is pretty recent, I’m gonna have to say that was not your first try ;D

First try in 3 months. Enemy got on TS and linked it again.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Narcarsis.5739:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Speed has three things that make it up:

• Reaction Speed – How long it takes you to realize something is happening that requires a reaction.
• Decision Speed – How long it takes you to decide what you want to do about it.
• Action Speed – How long it takes you to do the action required.

That game pretty much eliminates Decision and Action speed all together. It also simplified Reaction speed by making the stimuli expected. Guild Wars 2 requires that you know exactly what skill you need to use against that stimuli and most skills will have a cast time. You also have to move your finger to the button required. There’s ways to reduce it, but really, anything less than 3/4 is nigh impossible to react to effectively, let alone interrupt.

Disagreed. As said above me you learn how people play, what they do in reaction to X, when they heal, etc. You anticipate and prepare for it, and the game turns into clicking sheep. All of my targets in this game are sheep.

Then interrupt my healing turret. 1/2 second cast shouldn’t be too hard to nab.

I have interrupted countless healing turrets and healing springs. I fail to see what you’re trying to accomplish.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Speed has three things that make it up:

• Reaction Speed – How long it takes you to realize something is happening that requires a reaction.
• Decision Speed – How long it takes you to decide what you want to do about it.
• Action Speed – How long it takes you to do the action required.

That game pretty much eliminates Decision and Action speed all together. It also simplified Reaction speed by making the stimuli expected. Guild Wars 2 requires that you know exactly what skill you need to use against that stimuli and most skills will have a cast time. You also have to move your finger to the button required. There’s ways to reduce it, but really, anything less than 3/4 is nigh impossible to react to effectively, let alone interrupt.

Disagreed. As said above me you learn how people play, what they do in reaction to X, when they heal, etc. You anticipate and prepare for it, and the game turns into clicking sheep. All of my targets in this game are sheep.

Kharr.5746:

I didn’t know GW2 PVP was all about spotting giant white sheep on a bright green background without any distracting shapes, colours or effects. I must be playing the wrong game. Which way to the PVP room?

All of my targets in this game are sheep.

Fjandi.2516:

Issues.5789:

OOOO! wut up now

OOOO! wut up now

Eviator.9746:

It’s not a really good test for gaming purposes, though IMO.

Maybe not for a game like this. For fps games is a different story imo.

Nice! I’ve already improved mine but I want all .10 before I post again xD

Eviator.9746:

0.27 seconds for me. It’s not a really good test for gaming purposes, though IMO. You are hovering your mouse to execute a specific reaction to a specific stimulus you know is about to happen. That’s not gaming conditions, at least in my case.

Could argue that. My thumb is always on my side mouse button, which is my shadowstep. Visual perception and reaction to those stimuli are improved with practice. It’s the same concept as seeing a stun come at me, a thief jump me, a mesmer pop mirror images on me. You see it and you click.

Glad to see people trying it, I thought it was fun ^^

Wouldn’t mind seeing more people post their times.

Several people tried to argue it and say that you couldn’t react to a backstab combo (.25 seconds) quite a few months ago. Just figured I’d provide something for people to practice with.

The average reaction time for finger movement is .215. So you’re about right there. Anything lower than .1 is generally considered anticipation and is inconsistent.

For everyone who’s ever told me that .25s reaction time is impossible.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9453/2xif.png

That was my first try. Give it a go: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/reaction_version5.swf

Well, to be honest. If you deserved to win you would have won the Bo5 as well. Stop crying because of your own inconsistency. Good games, better luck next time.

<3 Caed

I do this on my main account. Rating is meaningless.

Acandis.3250:

good look to you

I’ve tried both… and they both hate me =[ Scorpion wire pulled people 2 feet every time I used it, and tripwire never seemed to want to go off – only worked once.

Veseis.4915:

Hey, Caed,

Is the 10/30/0/0/30 build link in your Twitch info up to date? Also, would you consider using another trait over the 5% precision to vitality conversion trait? Such as the 20% signet cd reduction trait or furious retaliation since it got buffed from 45sec to 30sec cd.

Yes, it’s the same build.
And no, I prefer the HP – does exactly what I need it to do.

Got a little more practice with the map elements. Still have to get used to the positioning requirements. The map is far less forgiving than others. Right now it’s a love/hate relationship.

http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/c/2554958

Also, as a side note. Why would I try to embarrass myself? I thought they were good clips, they don’t really do much for me to put them up. I laughed, they were fun. If you don’t like ‘em you don’t really have to say anything about it.

Haha me playing badly = me being outplayed. You can’t just chalk up my poor positioning only to my error. He took advantage of it.

Now, I had a rough night. Did a lot of trolling around learning the new map. But I straight up got outplayed most the night – this guy got me the best… twice. So for everyone’s enjoyment:

http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/videos?kind=highlights

Enjoy! ^^

-Caed

Hello,

Looking to play for a competitive team. Flexible schedule. Main is a thief, can also play elementalist. Team must be cooperative with one another, open to criticism, open minded, and maintain a good attitude.

No ragers.

-Caed

This is amusing me.

-Caed.

I am rerolling.

<3 Caed

That site isn’t even accurate on my build…

Arganthium.5638:

Caed is extremely dynamic; he borrows from the short-term elements of a fight to create a long-term advantage. He uses specific combos at the correct time to wedge a large advantageous gap in his opponents. He has his cooldowns, positioning, and mobility mastered so that, in the long run, he can hurt the enemy team and reduce their health pools greatly. My main issue with his playstyle is that, while dynamic, he actually, contrary to what you said, doesn’t seem to take enough advantage of static advantages. That’s why I run builds that tend to look something like 0/0/X/X/X (although my current build doesn’t reflect this pattern; their’s 10 in DA, but none in CS). My playstyle focuses on abusing dynamic advantages to create long-term static advantages. Caed’s playstyle focuses on using dynamic advantages to create more dynamic advantages, and that’s where I think that his playstyle ultimately falters. He can’t use a small advantage to destroy opponents; he has to use large ones. Of course, large advantages are better than smaller ones, but smaller ones tend to be more safely secured and, in the long run, still have the same effect that larger advantages have. Furthermore, Caed’s very dynamic play allows him to create very large advantages very quickly, but at the cost of allowing his enemies to do the same to him.

That’s not to say that dynamic play isn’t important; it is, and in order to gain static advantages, you need to abuse dynamic opportunities. If anything, Caed is far too dynamic and not static enough.

Always looking for criticism. Thank you.

Hot Boy.7138:

Narcarsis.5739:

Hot Boy.7138:

Arganthium.5638:

ariel.7614:

Who do you think is the best player?

I know about Caed and Jumper, not sure about the other two.

I totally respect Jumper, especially after playing with him today. His abilities on a thief are… Absolutely off the charts. He’s incredibly skilled.

Caed… Eh. Not so sure. People hype him up a lot and all, but I know that he runs burstier stuff, and I’m not sure I respect that so much. So. No clue.

On slow nights I join dueling games to waste time until I’m tired. It’s fun and I don’t take it seriously. I found myself in a game with Caed a couple weeks ago. He was dueling another thief and was destroying him. Caed’s burst is insane. I dueled him also and he beat me three times in a row. It seemed like he was unbeatable for a moment. But I won the 4th duel and he got really nasty. Then I beat him again after that and he turned into a total kitten. I went afk for a bit and came back dead to see that he neglected all other duels to just attack my afk character so he could feel good about himself. Not to mention he doesn’t /bow before a duel to give himself the advantage of opening up on someone who is still waiting to see the bow.

To be one of the best players you have to be dynamic. If you use the same strat each time to beat someone and they finally learn to counter it, it’s time to do something a little differently. He couldn’t change his playstyle in even the slightest so he lost again and turned into a jerk. Also, you have to know that there is always room for improvement. Take a loss as a sign that there are still things to improve upon. Anyone can learn a burst combo in a a minute as someone stated above me, that doesn’t make you a good player.

I remember you, I killed you around 20 times in a row and, then you used thieves guild until you finally got me, and then proceeded to kitten talk me when you were running a duelist build. Saying I attacked you when you were AFK is also a joke, since you initiated every duel.

I really couldn’t care less about what you personally think of me but going on a forums to talk kitten about someone is fairly pathetic. Anytime you want duels I’ll duel you, just PM me.

Cheers.

How many people do you have this same problem with? I never used thieve’s guild. I don’t even have a thief. I just tell it like it is. This was my experience playing with you and that’s all there is to it. Also, in my entire time playing this game since launch, I’ve never talked kitten to anyone ever in an spvp game or over a duel, or a match, or anything pvp related. That’s beneath me.

The irony of this is astounding.

Hot Boy.7138:

Arganthium.5638:

ariel.7614:

Who do you think is the best player?

I know about Caed and Jumper, not sure about the other two.

I totally respect Jumper, especially after playing with him today. His abilities on a thief are… Absolutely off the charts. He’s incredibly skilled.

Caed… Eh. Not so sure. People hype him up a lot and all, but I know that he runs burstier stuff, and I’m not sure I respect that so much. So. No clue.

On slow nights I join dueling games to waste time until I’m tired. It’s fun and I don’t take it seriously. I found myself in a game with Caed a couple weeks ago. He was dueling another thief and was destroying him. Caed’s burst is insane. I dueled him also and he beat me three times in a row. It seemed like he was unbeatable for a moment. But I won the 4th duel and he got really nasty. Then I beat him again after that and he turned into a total kitten. I went afk for a bit and came back dead to see that he neglected all other duels to just attack my afk character so he could feel good about himself. Not to mention he doesn’t /bow before a duel to give himself the advantage of opening up on someone who is still waiting to see the bow.

To be one of the best players you have to be dynamic. If you use the same strat each time to beat someone and they finally learn to counter it, it’s time to do something a little differently. He couldn’t change his playstyle in even the slightest so he lost again and turned into a jerk. Also, you have to know that there is always room for improvement. Take a loss as a sign that there are still things to improve upon. Anyone can learn a burst combo in a a minute as someone stated above me, that doesn’t make you a good player.

I remember you, I killed you around 20 times in a row and, then you used thieves guild until you finally got me, and then proceeded to kitten talk me when you were running a duelist build. Saying I attacked you when you were AFK is also a joke, since you initiated every duel.

I really couldn’t care less about what you personally think of me but going on a forums to talk kitten about someone is fairly pathetic. Anytime you want duels I’ll duel you, just PM me.

Cheers.

From what I can tell and have heard the leaderboards use Glicko 2. Glicko 2 is a rating deviation formula. This mean that teams who have high rating will not gain very much from stomping low rated teams, however those low rated teams will gain a large amount of rating for beating high rated teams (who will also lose a lot more rating than if losing to another high rated team). A formula can be found via google.

1. I am not new to forums.
2. Please elaborate on what forum heroes are.
3. Since when does posting on a forum affect your in game skill level?

If your complaining about Eles as a thief in a team based game then yes, learn to play your class.

Viability: thief is fine, learn to play the class.
Diversity: having 2 specs (one requiring vastly more experience, skill, and communication/cooperation than the other – thus never being seen) is somewhat stale. However that being said the only class with true build diversity is the guardian.

Complaining about skill issues is pointless. You’re crying because you don’t have haste for your heartseeker spam post burst, requiring you to outplay people instead of face roll. Learn the class, how it plays, and what it’s capable of before whining on forums about quickness as a thief. The quickness nerf didn’t even touch backstab in terms of viability, and reduced pistol whip and unload specs to completely unplayable (not to say they were viable before).

-Caed

If you think scepter burst is in fire you are mistaken…

waka.9826:

Just say “I don’t know maaaainnnnn, I’m not even tryin mainnnnnnnnnn”

That way you don’t need to try because everyone knows you ain’t even trying

maaaaain.

This.

Skumbag.8465:

Which one do you prefer to use out of them all just d/d for burst and helping with team objectives?

I play D/P burst. It’s what I enjoy playing and what I’ve refined.
D/D Burst is inferior, D/D bleeds aren’t viable in competitive play, and Venom Share require an extremely coordinated team to use effectively. S/D is hard countered by stability (if it was easier to land the boon strip on S/D 3 then that wouldn’t be as true but it hardly hits). P/D bleed is worse than D/D bleed. S/P burst is heavily countered by retaliation. P/P has no mobility, coupled with haste you have no defense and are a sitting duck.

Skumbag.8465:

Dear Narcarsis,

I don’t know if it’s me, but your links about your specializations on your guide I can’t access. The links you posted at the beginning of this thread.

Copy/Paste instead of clicking. They will work.

bomber.1540:

no SD love at all? im very surprised to hear most top thieves dont even try it

inf stike gives you the best mobility in game, blinking in an out, combing with stealth from cnd makes seriously hard to track .i use 10/30/30/0/0 with citadel runes x5, divinity x1..means when i stealth i heal and cleanse conditions, this boosts ur survival 10 fold.

damage is insane, fs hits for almost as much as backstab.. and sword auto is extremely potent. all while ur target is dazed.

dont like the way things are going or get stunned, blink out with inf strike. like SP, its the perfect counter to other thieves, just make sure shadow return is always up

not saying its a better build to yours, but i think youll b surprised.

I know very well that it’s a strong build, however I kill other thieves with my spec more than they kill me. In that aspect my build does more for my team because I can also burst down other targets. S/D is sustain damage very low burst and in a team fight with stability almost absolutely useless.

Mrbig.8019:

The trade off is more damage.

The hastened combo allows you to use a HS in the same time span of a non-hastened steal stab ( or a shadowshot, if your opponent teleports away).

With full crits, it’s a 20 k + damage combo, a lot more than a sin signet empowered steal-stab.

If your opponent can’t escape, you can haste spam 1 for huge damage, too.

You can haste ress and haste stomp.

It still is quickness on demand, it can come in handy in various situations, as you also said, not only for damage.

sin signet is damage only.

The trade off exists, it only matters if it is worthy or not.

I believe it’s worthy, but i will give sin signet another chance.

Maybe i’ll take my words back, who knows

Steal stab is instant, saying anything more than steal/stab (even hasted) is faster than steal/stab alone is a lie. Good players will get their CDs off before you haste them down. The timing on a hasted heartseeker is 3/8th of a second – longer than the time needed for me to ShS or others to use defensives. There are things you can do with Haste that you can’t do with Sin Sig (Res, Stomp, Cap buffs, etc). However doing any of those things as a thief, with no endurance, is a death wish.

Follidus.8027:

Complain about every build that isn’t yours, that way everyone gets nerfed except you.

The day Folly reverts to a troll is the day I see that we are no longer friends who play GW2 together…

R.I.P. Follidus. May your soul rest in peace.

Main point being if you haste your chance for survival against good players drops dramatically, even with good positioning – I don’t see any justification for the trade off in the grander scheme of things. Also there are times where you can afford to give up positioning in order to pick up kills (when you have people to pick you up when you go down).

I might also add I used to have incredibly bad positioning compared to now. It only improved (consistently) about a month ago.

Mrbig.8019:

Narcarsis.5739:

Mrbig.8019:

ensoriki.5789:

Mrbig.8019:

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Flaw is after shadowstep he can dodge, preventing the shot from warping, HiS and if you try to follow with your SS, he’s free to generally warp back before you finish pursuit.
There is also the delay before the actual hit of Shadowshot, which you can warp inbetween and since HiS doesn’t get canceled, it isn’t untypical for the burst to fail to conjure a kill.

You don’t have any changes you make for Spirit Watch Caed or you just decided to roll the exact same?

nothing stops you to use Shadowshot again after he dodges.

If you did everything right, you should have 8+ ini after the burst, assuming you didn’t do it after HoS or shadow refuge ( in that case, you have full ini).

Anyway, i’m curious about builds for spirit watch.

I’ve found S/P venom share to have more viability in there. Still somehow worse than having another ele or ranger, but somehow viable.

I found the opposite true, spirit watch is largely based on capping points. I rarely find myself with my teammates as priority is back capping.
Also (again), ShS is 1200 range, Shadow Shot is 900. You won’t kill someone who doesn’t biff their ShS.

repost ( i’ve written it up in the comment above)

-The issue with SS is that there’re tons of terrain impairments that usually you won’t get the full range , unless you’re in open areas.
Sometimes you need to turn your camera AND use shadowstep in order to get the full range, because you’re in tiny places in the first place.-

An example would be on khylo, when you’re on the windows spamming with the shortbow and the enemy thief caught you EXACTLY after you were turning the camera behind ( it usually screws up, and using shadowstep is a mess).

The same on trebuchet.

There are tons of situations like this, and in these situations is pretty hard to pull off a full 1200 range shadowstep.

The pain grows since a hastened combo requires even more reflexes, and in these situations maybe you won’t be able to both avoid the burst and escape at 1200 range.

And, as i said before, not every class is a thief.

A ranger using lightining reflexes will be caught by your SS, same for a mesmer using blink or phase retreat or an ele using lightning flash.

This all comes down to positioning. Don’t get caught in kitten positions.

Mrbig.8019:

ensoriki.5789:

Mrbig.8019:

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Flaw is after shadowstep he can dodge, preventing the shot from warping, HiS and if you try to follow with your SS, he’s free to generally warp back before you finish pursuit.
There is also the delay before the actual hit of Shadowshot, which you can warp inbetween and since HiS doesn’t get canceled, it isn’t untypical for the burst to fail to conjure a kill.

You don’t have any changes you make for Spirit Watch Caed or you just decided to roll the exact same?

nothing stops you to use Shadowshot again after he dodges.

If you did everything right, you should have 8+ ini after the burst, assuming you didn’t do it after HoS or shadow refuge ( in that case, you have full ini).

Anyway, i’m curious about builds for spirit watch.

I’ve found S/P venom share to have more viability in there. Still somehow worse than having another ele or ranger, but somehow viable.

I found the opposite true, spirit watch is largely based on capping points. I rarely find myself with my teammates as priority is back capping.
Also (again), ShS is 1200 range, Shadow Shot is 900. You won’t kill someone who doesn’t biff their ShS.

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

evilapprentice.6379:

narcarsis.5791:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Narcarsis.5739

With the D/P Backstab build, how are you consistently getting into position without any sort of speed boost (Fleet shadow, SoS)? (As a side-note – the spec I run should also have an additional second of stealth thanks to MwS, but according to testing by another player on the boards, MwS is currently bugged and does not affect stealth gained by BP->HS)

I’m currently running D/P (25/15/30/0/0) with Devourers,SoS,Shadowstep and Basilisk. Good players tend to keep moving and dodging whenever I enter stealth; even with SoS, there are times where I have to decide quickly if I want to just let stealth drop or try for a front stab. Basically, what are you doing against players who know what to expect when you enter stealth?

For the backstab, patience and deception are your friends. Be patient with your burst and pressure them to use their defensive CDs (stun breaks, dodge rolls, etc). Once they’re gone burst them.

Positioning is something you’ll learn as time goes on. Think more vertically than horizontally. Get high ground and be patient, only go in for a kill when you can secure it.

P.S. I will not quit this game. And I’m always willing to answer questions – Through this post preferably.

I get all that. My point is, alot of builds are based around high endurance regen, or high mobility… Some people even use their 25% Movement signets. Mobility and endurance are very important in this game, and most classes that have access to high mobility/endurance regen tend to take it, and they’re generally not based on CD’s (and when they are, they’re generally very short CD’s). I Don’t see how a spec without some sort of movement speed buff (SoS, Fleet shadow) can reliably position backstabs against players running those types of specs who understand how a thief works.

Positioning comes with experience and learning to observe the other player. Backstab’s “back” range is pretty lenient…you could pretty much hit someone from the side and it’ll count as back…

What you need to do is learn not to approach the backstab combo from the front…even if you so much as dodge roll, rotate your camera a bit, then do the combo…you’re probably going to hit them from the side.

SoS does definitely help with positioning, but with experience and learning how to position yourself, you’re not going to need it.

Ok. Again, I get that. I’m not claiming to be perfect at it, but I understand the concept and generally try to position like that. Thank you for explaining, but that’s not my point.

For people who are moving at your speed or faster than you (which counts everyone not crippled/chilled when you aren’t running SoS/Fleet and dont have swiftness), and that know to move away from the position they saw you stealth at, how do you expect to ever get behind (or even in melee range) of that player? When I was running with Refuge over SoS (again, 25/15/30/0/0), people moving faster than base speed who knew how to play were generally a hard counter to BP->HS stealth entirely, because it was impossible for me to catch up with them (as long as they were moving generally away from me) without using shadowstep or steal. Switching to shortbow was generally the answer, but that’s not optimal in alot of situations. If they were close, there was the option of using HS without a target, so you shot past them and got a chance for the BS when they moved past you, but that’s not a perfect solution either.

I’d love to run Refuge over SoS in my build, I’m just wondering if there’s something I’m missing.

Not sure what to say, the issue lies in what I’ve said before. Positioning, patience, and ability use. You shouldn’t only be backstabbing people, you do it when you know you can land it. Otherwise you’re dumping a lot of initiative into stealth for nothing. The reason D/P is better than D/D is partly because every skill on your weapon set [1-5] is useful, you just need to figure out what to use in each situation you encounter. Don’t rely on backstab as consistent damage because you won’t be able to hit every one, use it for spike when you know it will land (again, the patience/positioning). Thrill of the Crime will give you the necessary swiftness to ensure your backstabs, as well as adding to your burst with Fury (not to mention Mug). Don’t confine yourself to using certain abilities because they do “more damage” on the tooltip (not accusing you of this, however it sounds like you’re not using other abilities).

Anyway, overall I haven’t experienced an issue with landing backstab because of swiftness.