Guild Wars 2

My name is Caed. I am a thief, always was and always will be. I am posting because I see a severe lack of high level thieves in sPvP/tPvP. I am not claiming to be the best or to know everything, but my knowledge of the class and game is extensive and my propensity to help others is gradually increasing. I have been asked to make guides and tutorials but I lack the time and equipment to accomplish that.

So my proposal to the thief community is this: I am here to help and answer any questions players may have regarding the thief class, whether it be skills, traits, gear, or play style. I enjoy the game and the class and want to share my knowledge and enjoyment to others. In exchange I want others to do the same and help the community as a whole raise their skill level.

-Caed Aeterna [TP]
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/Narcarsis

If you want help with the thief class send me a message or mail in game and I will respond as quickly and thoroughly as possible (I may be in a game or afk, please be patient).

Builds;

Caed’s Backstab [Dagger/Pistol]: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c3RV-BFSwk0-5-FOFd0;9;4OT;0E28-59A;44;0LNV4-BX4Ewk2Ewk25Bb

Positioning is the most important thing and something you have to learn based on the position of the enemy team and the map, as well as your preference on aggression, defense, and team orientation. Timing is incredibly important as well and you must be patient to ensure that your burst is not negated. After you burst a target you either leave for a teammate to stomp or you switch to shortbow and continue to damage other targets. Don’t undervalue your shortbow, it is one of the strongest weapons in the game.

Venom Share [Sword/Pistol]: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cFRV-BFSwk0-T53PFd0;9;4T-T-927B;138B;14;0YoV4-BX4Ewk2Ewk25By

Venom share is a team fight spec, it is still relatively squishy but you are able to get in more with the evasion on pistol whip. If you want you can sacrifice some damage and take a soldier’s amulet for some added toughness. Your main role is you give your damage dealer venom to ensure that they hit their target, second to immobilize/stun high priority targets, third to peel, and fourth is damage. You have an extremely high amount of mobility with Infiltrator’s Strike and Shadowstep, as well as condition removal on both of those and the trait in Shadow Arts. Manage your initiative carefully and keep an eye out for their high damage classes. Call out every CC you put so that your team can implement burst skills into your rotation.

Rainbow Unicorn Death Blossom: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c33V-BFSwk0-S5FOkd0;9;6TJJ;437A19-26-KZV8-BX4jwmAjwmA2Fe

This is a Node Assault build. Due to stealth not being able to cap nodes it is not very effective at holding a node. However with a constant barrage of AoE Bleeds, Consistent health regeneration, and the highest evade/damage skill in the game you are incredulously hard to kill. It takes roughly the same effort to 1v3 as it does to 1v1 someone with this spec. Keep an eye out for CC and make sure you dodge it, use your Steal and Cloak and Dagger as a mini heal. Drop Caltrops and Choking Gas on a point to keep constant pressure on the defender. Switch out Rabid for Shamans if against a heavy burst team (keep the carrion gem). This spec works better on Niflhel and Khylo.

References available upon request.

Yes, nerf the color red. It is too powerful for my eyes to bear.

Shanks R Us.2489:

What do you consider to be the major weaknesses of the thief class?

The biggest issue with thief is that it is the squishiest class in the game when playing what is the current “optimal” spec. Because of this it is the only class that cannot stand on a point in a fight. Whether it be direct damage or conditions, cleave will kill a thief in a matter of seconds. Positioning is the most important aspect of the class due to it’s fragility. Any other class, even a burst Mesmer (due to multiple invulnerabilities,) can stand on a point during a fight, giving you an edge on capping the node.

While this is an issue with the class it is a necessary weakness due to the high damage output, mobility, and evasion/stealth that the class has. It is a trade off that other classes sacrifice for.

My name is Caed. I am a thief, always was and always will be. I am posting because I see a severe lack of high level thieves in sPvP/tPvP. I am not claiming to be the best or to know everything, but my knowledge of the class and game is extensive and my propensity to help others is gradually increasing. I have been asked to make guides and tutorials but I lack the time and equipment to accomplish that.

So my proposal to the thief community is this: I am here to help and answer any questions players may have regarding the thief class, whether it be skills, traits, gear, or play style. I enjoy the game and the class and want to share my knowledge and enjoyment to others. In exchange I want others to do the same and help the community as a whole raise their skill level.

-Caed Aeterna
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/Narcarsis

If you want help with the thief class send me a message or mail in game and I will respond as quickly and thoroughly as possible (I may be in a game or afk, please be patient).

Builds; Copy and Paste them into your URL.

Caed’s Backstab [Dagger/Pistol]: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c3RV-BFSwk0-5-FOFd0;9;4OT;0E28-59A;44;0LNV4-BX4Ewk2Ewk25Bb

Positioning is the most important thing and something you have to learn based on the position of the enemy team and the map, as well as your preference on aggression, defense, and team orientation. Timing is incredibly important as well and you must be patient to ensure that your burst is not negated. After you burst a target you either leave for a teammate to stomp or you switch to shortbow and continue to damage other targets. Don’t undervalue your shortbow, it is one of the strongest weapons in the game.

Venom Share [Sword/Pistol]: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cFRV-BFSwk0-T53PFd0;9;4T-T-927B;138B;14;0YNV4-BX4Ewk2Ewk25Bf

Venom share is a team fight spec, it is still relatively squishy but you are able to get in more with the evasion on pistol whip. If you want you can sacrifice some damage and take a soldier’s amulet for some added toughness. Your main role is you give your damage dealer venom to ensure that they hit their target, second to immobilize/stun high priority targets, third to peel, and fourth is damage. You have an extremely high amount of mobility with Infiltrator’s Strike and Shadowstep, as well as condition removal on both of those and the trait in Shadow Arts. Manage your initiative carefully and keep an eye out for their high damage classes. Call out every CC you put so that your team can implement burst skills into your rotation.

Rainbow Unicorn Death Blossom: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c33V-BFSwk0-S5FOkd0;9;6TJJ;437A19-26-KZV8-BX4jwmAjwmA2Fe

This is a Node Assault build. Due to stealth not being able to cap nodes it is not very effective at holding a node. However with a constant barrage of AoE Bleeds, Consistent health regeneration, and the highest evade/damage skill in the game you are incredulously hard to kill. It takes roughly the same effort to 1v3 as it does to 1v1 someone with this spec. Keep an eye out for CC and make sure you dodge it, use your Steal and Cloak and Dagger as a mini heal. Drop Caltrops and Choking Gas on a point to keep constant pressure on the defender. Switch out Rabid for Shamans if against a heavy burst team (keep the carrion gem). This spec works better on Niflhel and Khylo.

References available upon request.

Folly add me to all of it.

Love,

-Caed

This just in: you don’t! Be creative, run what you like to play and make it work. Look at PZ for example. They all play classes they enjoy, and it just so happens that not one of them is a Mesmer.

Respawn timers for hotjoin = :58, :38, :18.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/How-to-fix-my-class-for-PvP

No, keep the damage. However the risk/reward is far too heavily favored for the thief. It currently takes no skill to time the burst and kill someone. The changes will emphasize proper positioning and timing of burst. If this is done properly then someone SHOULD die, but the way it is currently it’s too easy to do. I agree with you, the damage should not be touched – which is why I never mentioned it. But other glass cannons need an extra 1,000hp. I can global a thief before they can react if I get a critical with a fire proc, they need the 1k hp cushion to be able to react.

Unfortunately (and not to be conceited, although it’s hard not to sound that way) the 90% don’t know what the game needs.

Mrbig.8019:

3. Current meta and overall balance (conquest is already a not-so-liked game type, and bunker-burst meta is only reinforcing the hate).

You may think the general consensus is that people don’t like the game type, however the majority of players who are doing tournaments do not post on forums. You hear the whine from hot-joins and get a preconceived notion that X class or X spec/damage type is OP because that’s all you see in hot-joins. People zerg, someone dies to a thief when they’re against a team with 7 thieves, and then they come to forums to cry “Thief is OP, nerf” or you see the one guardian that survives against a team with 7 condition specs when he’s running triple shout condition removal and then you get a “Bunker is OP” thread.

The game is extremely balanced, especially for being 4 months old. The only class that is completely over the top right now is Mesmers, due to shatter exploits.

You cannot balance every spec for every class in a game that is focused on something more complex than team death-match. It is impossible.

This is why there is a class philosophy – read it and deal with it.

As a side note you keep going back to your view that I am advocating the ability for thieves to burst, which I am. However none of my changes help burst, they make is harder to do and require you to play more intelligently to pull off your burst. You’re arguing a null point because none of the changes I ask for are a buff to thief’s burst.

Balanced builds are not sub-par, and I never said that. They are powerful but fill specific roles which are not required in a point hold type game.

A small HP boost will not ruin the balance of burst against bunkers, it will merely prevent the instant gib on glass cannons, 99% burst is fine, 100% is not. 99% gives reaction time, allows a team to peel and gives you time to heal. You can’t 100-0 a bunker now, and a 2% HP base will not make a difference in the amount of time it takes to kill one.

I would do more paids if people invited me over the random bads.

Yep, that about sums it up.

Angriff.1935:

People point the finger at thieves, just because their burst is hard to see coming. The problem doesn’t lie with thieves alone though. There’s just too much damage coming from every source.

If they toned town the damage from every source, it would make that “epicenter” a more hospitable place, so sustained damage builds might become more viable. Burst builds could still exist as their damage would be brought back the same % as all other builds.

The only problem with this idea is that bunker classes would become even more difficult to kill. So defensive capabilities of some classes would have to be brought back as well, including the thief which is why I agree with Caed’s post.

They could actually leave the amount of healing relatively the same. You might actually start to see real support builds rather than the selfish burst/bunker/AoE builds that are the current meta. Less damage and less defensive capabilities would make healing builds, group condition removal, and group buffs more important.

I don’t think its a problem with any one class. It’s every class.

This is why I said increase base HP for all classes, it tones down burst and aoe cleave (including wells and marks) while leaving classes at their respective damage levels. It doesn’t hurt any one class but leaves everyone off at the same place and is far easier to do than touching damage numbers for each class.

I think you’ve misread me. Those builds are all incredibly strong, they just don’t do very much for a team which is why they aren’t used. Different game modes (such as WvW) could capitalize on them. There is no way to buff the other specs without deeply affecting the balance of the ones currently in use (putting them over the top). If you think thieves are pigeon holed you have not seen engineers (seriously, where are they?). Engineers have it far worse than we do, being completely outclassed as a side node holder because of one utility: Mesmer Portal.

Thieves utilities are outclassed by other classes, but in turn they have the highest burst in the game. What you want is for thieves to have more utility, but this would require their burst to be toned down. Doing all of these things will result in all of the classes doing the same thing, which would be boring both to play and to watch.

Mrbig.8019:

I don’t want my favourite class to be pigeon holed, that is all.

Top players usually tend to orient changes in order to favour their playstyles: on the other side i want changes in order to make the game overall better and have a chance to play my class ANY WAY i want, anytime i want to change.

Probably this means i’ll never be a top player, who knows.

Anyway, till people keeps on going with this mentality ( and the thief is quite one sided, according to this mentality) i think i would be off better playing an Ele, so that i know i can play as i wish.

It’s saddening to know that i keep on coming back to the thief.

I mained a condition thief, and I still love condition thief. But there are many reasons that the spec will not work in tPvP. It’s mainly a 1vX spec, focusing on sustain and survivability. However you can’t cap nodes while stealthed and fighting a 1v1 against a class that can hold their own against you is useless – you’re not benefiting your team whatsoever.

Glass cannon builds are not 1v1 builds. The only options a thief has is shortbow aoe, pistolwhip aoe, single target burst, or condition. Condition is a sustain spec, the rest do laughable damage as sustain specs, however they are incredibly strong at sustain – more so than other classes. But these are very selfish builds that do not help a team. Builds that focus solely on the player using them will not win games, because they don’t capitalize on team synergy. Glass builds are focused on killing players who are already engaged in combat, so that they are less likely to be focused. The reason Pistol Whip is not used much is because it’s countered by armor, protection, and retaliation more than backstab is. That leaves shortbow and dagger burst, which fit nicely together into the 2 weapon sets you see most thieves running. This is not to say that Condition specs, pistol whip, or sustain thieves or weak – in fact they are incredibly strong (part of the reason I advocate for a stealth cap reduction), it’s just that they do not fit well on a team because they are either individual focused builds or they are hard countered by certain comps.

Mrbig.8019:

Caed, i know you’re a pro NA thief, but your opinion on the class is far too biased by your playstyle preference ( glass cannon) and your suggestions would only reduce a bit the QQs ( that anyway, come from the C&D+ Mug+ Stab or from the Stab-> mug combo) while not really fixing thief fundamental flaws.

More than anything, we need more options.
Just like necros.

“Thief:
Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.”

This is Anets posted class balance philosophy on thieves, not just mine. Also I don’t play dagger/dagger. I play one of the weapon sets that you consider inferior to it (Dagger/Pistol).

Source: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/960-class-balance-philosophies/

aaaand https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/How-to-fix-my-class-for-PvP/first#post1110076.

yep.

Forcing a thief to short-bow 3 wastes his initiative and closes their window to burst, forcing them to exit the fight and re-position (this is a benefit for your team).

Schwahrheit.4203:

What about Thief evade skills? Shouldn’t they be more high risk and high reward? I mean it doesn’t seem to reward you enough for being good at timing evade skills but at the same time its just too safe to spam it when you think you’re about to get hit.

I think positional requirements on death blossom will punish people who use it incorrectly enough, since it has high initiative cost and you will miss your bleeds.

Pistol whip on the other hand is countered extremely hard by retaliation, as well as mitigated by armor more than other skills (due to multiple successive hits). I don’t think pistol whip needs any changes, and death blossom needs a positional requirement (not mindless auto aim), as I said earlier.

Hi, my name is Caed [Aeterna]. Many of you may know me as the grumpy thief on Anvil Rock. I have played the game since beta, and the first class I chose was a thief.
As a brief introduction, I think the game is incredibly balanced for 3 months. There are a couple classes that are a little over the top (ie Mesmers, due to a couple bugs with shatter) and a few that are a little weaker (ie Engineers, because they serve extremely niche roles that don’t necessarily fit in the current ‘meta’).

While I think thieves are fairly balanced I do agree that there should be a few changed to tone them down. First problem is the stealth cap, this needs to be reduced. Second, skills such as heartseeker and death blossom need positional requirements. Lastly, I believe that all classes need a small health pool boost.

Stealth cap: Currently the stealth cap is at 14 seconds. This gives far too much of a safe zone for thieves and opens up a number of problems. Thieves that run the XI trait from Shadow Arts, Shadow Rejuvenation, regenerate absurd amounts of health due to such a long stealth cap. This makes thieves one of the strongest 1vX classes in the game coupled with evading skills such as death blossom and pistol whip. Another issue with the current stealth cap is that is makes positioning on a thief far too easy. Positioning should require intelligence, but having 14 seconds of stealth allows a thief to waltz right past the enemy to wherever they “need” to be. Reducing the cap will not only make the timing of stealth far more important, but also the timing of burst from stealth. 14 second stealth allows for thieves to wait for all protection boons to wear off of a target and strike then, without any punishment from mis-positioning and sitting there waiting to strike. With a stealth cap reduction it would require better timing from both stealth and a thief’s burst. I suggest that this be reduced to ~8 seconds, instead of 14.

Skill positioning: Skills such as heartseeker and death blossom are far too rewarding. You get way too much for the button you press. To start, heartseeker automatically aims a thief to its target, closes a gap, and increases its damage the more you press it (or the less health the target has). Death blossom also automatically aims, closes a gap, does aoe cleave, and evades for one button. Both of these skills need to have “Blazing Speed” treatment. The skills should move you towards the direction you are facing, and at a set distance (death blossom does this, heartseeker does not) instead of automatically closing the necessary gap, whether there is a gap or not. This would require for proper positioning and increase the skill required to use these properly.

Health Pool: I think that all classes need a health pool increase, not that burst damage needs to be nerfed. A higher health pool (on EVERY class) will give the proper amount of time necessary to react, prevent 100-0 glass versus glass burst, and still allow burst to do it’s job. Nerfing burst for a few classes, such as thieves, will effectively make them useless. A thief’s job is to do damage, there is very little that they can do besides this that is (that would be considered more useful than what another class can do). Burst is healthy for the game, it is necessary to end fights and timing burst intelligently leads to a team fight win or a node cap – as it should. If they increase the health cap they will prevent the 1 shot that is occasionally going on while keeping the fear factor of having a thief on the enemy team.

These 3 things will balance my class and increase the skill cap to playing thieves correctly. It will also punish players for poor positioning, poor timing, and wasting initiative. Constructive criticism is welcome, however I will not waste my time arguing with trolls and ignorance.

Love,

- Caed.

Edit: Meant the XI trait, not IX.

Another thing, free tourny rewards are useless to anyone who’s done them 100 times. I stopped opening my chests from them a long time ago because it’s more of a hassle to salvage what’s inside them than to just let them sit there.

Get a ladder system.

While Sataa thinks a ladder will kill the game I am not talking about a team ladder. This game needs a solo queue ladder, which will pair them up with teammates and enemies close to their rating levels. This will allow newer players to come into the game and start on a level playing field instead of getting frustrated from losing the first map 500-0 and quitting the game.

Once a ladder system is in place more teams will start to form due to an increased interest in the game. People with similar ladder rankings can form a team and then start to join a team ladder. This will grow both the overall sPvP population and then, once players feel up to it, the tourny team pool.

I have not seen ANY of the players on the other team [Screen below] since that happened, a month ago. These people end up quitting, not re-queuing. There is no incentive for new players to play, so they get nothing for winning and lose everything when they get defeated.

People take these threads far too seriously. This entire post was to make fun of every other crybaby on the forums.

urinfamousr.7631:

hard to dodge a root when ur getting focused and multi root.

lol all I see here is “I died to teamwork”

Ohhhhh noooo nerf X class…

There are 2 bugs, one which allows you to shatter twice off of the same clones. Another which increases damage on shatter by about 500-700 per clone.

Should also mention people who macro this can shatter with what would seem to be ~6-9 clones.

RaZaC.1963:

Guard/Engie are fine… these video’s prove nothing… One thing that needs a nerf is shatter mesmer damage. Also the use of portals in tournaments is something that needs to be looked into.

Portal is fine. Shatter will be fine after bug fixes. But yes, currently it needs those bug fixes asap.

Don’t over nerf mesmers b/c of macro users and people who can’t dodge a root.

Look for teh glory booster you got.

The fact that guardian does it in an AoE and a thief is single target burst?

Not to mention the condi removal, retaliation, and boons guardians give.

Good at his class? He didn’t know what greatsword 5 did…

Too much damagez, Caed approves of this guardian nerf.

/thread.

I do not think the CD on these skills should be nerfed, but reduce max stealth cap to 8 seconds instead of 14.

Narcarsis.5739:

To be honest the game is extremely balanced for being out for only 3 months. Finer issues take time to work out and well it may seem frustrating as a player the Devs don’t get as much credit as should be given. People expect things to be perfect upon release but games like this take time to tweak. While I agree that the game mode seems stale and I like your suggestions I also believe that people are still learning the game and what can be done.

The meta changes every 2 weeks or so as teams come up with counters for others. While a few classes tend to dominate the general meta they are all balanced fairly well (Ele, Mesmer on the stronger side/Warrior, Engi on the weaker). Most of the complaints we hear about are from a more casual players who are getting killed by classes that punish poor positioning and timing (ie thieves/mesmers). While it’s good to listen to the general population it’s not healthy for them to balance the game around it.

Let the game take its course for a little longer, things take time and 3 months means the game is still in infancy. People expect too much far too quickly – Be patient.

To be honest the game is extremely balanced for being out for only 3 months. Finer issues take time to work out and well it may seem frustrating as a player the Devs don’t get as much credit as should be given. People expect things to be perfect upon release but games like this take time to tweak. While I agree that the game mode seems stale and I like your suggestions I also believe that people are still learning the game and what can be done.

The meta changes every 2 weeks or so as teams come up with counters for others. While a few classes tend to dominate the general meta they are all balanced fairly well (Ele, Mesmer on the stronger side/Warrior, Engi on the weaker). Most of the complaints we hear about are from a more casual players who are getting killed by classes that punish poor positioning and timing (ie thieves/mesmers). While it’s good to listen to the general population it’s not healthy for them to balance the game around it.

Let the game take its course for a little longer, things take time and 3 months means the game is still in infancy. People expect too much far too quickly – Be patient.

Surely you have outside knowledge on key words (ie tactics, strategy) and if not it’s relatively easy for a reader to use their friend Google these days. He links subjects together well enough for them to be cohesive and understood by the reader.

While I agree with you that he didn’t articulate his point extremely efficiently you could hardly say it takes anything more than common sense to understand what he was getting at.

The suggestions merely add depth to the game. He wants to shift focus off of purely point holding by adding more objectives and putting a lockout on capping points after they’ve recently been capped. This would drive another aspect into the game which would add strategy, tactics, complexity and make the game more fun in general.

P.S. 2 people can kill a bunker in less than 15 seconds.

Nothing I can disagree with, and the suggestions are rather intriguing. I approve this post

I play glass cannon, I know the risks of the type of spec I play. When you play glass you should be aware of your surroundings and the enemies location/cool downs. It takes time to set things up, and burst is good for the health of the game. If they fix the double shatter (off of the same clones) bug, then Mesmers will be in a good spot. Most of the people who complain about this are glass cannons who do not pay attention to the map or their positioning and get punished because of it, just as they are designed to punish others who do the same.

TLDR; Glass builds are good at killing other glass builds/bad players. Fix the bug and there won’t be a problem when people learn map awareness.

Arheundel.6451:

So one-shotting people is fine…but survive the burst is not, but unless you go tanky build..you get one-shotted

There is no such thing as “1 shot”. You can’t kill anyone in a singe ability from 100% hp. However if you do a combo on an ele without mistform yes, they will die. A good ele with mist form as burst will kill a thief given they avoid the burst (which they usually do).

nerva.7940:

2. Decrease stealth uptime for thieves. They should not be near-perma stealthed and they should always be fighting a timer before they have to disengage. Cd’s should not reset so quickly and the thief needs to be punished for failing to burst someone down.

As a thief I’ll agree to this. Reduce the Stealth Cap down from 14s.
However taking away a thief’s burst will make them useless compared to other classes.

They don’t need to get rid of it at all… The damage just needs to be toned down by 3-4k total (about 400-500 per shatter) and a hit to might stacking/remove glitch.

I’ve explained my issues with Mesmers, they just need to be toned down a bit. I think burst is good for the health of game and I don’t want what happened to Dancing Dagger to happen to Shatter. But with the current state their damage is game breaking.

Lies? Funny when every good Ele I know agrees with me that D/D is too strong and it’s not good for the health of the game. But believe what you want, doesn’t affect me. Anet can see it clear as day =]

I escape basi venom burst 100% of the time, saying that you can’t means you’re not running a stun break.

Get to higher level competitive play in paids, you’ll see 95% of the time.

IceTenacious.4126:

broken F3 shatter

It is indeed broken.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

So u agree with us , that Mesmer damage is justified in this video :P

How would that be me agreeing with you? There was NO time for him to do anything. You can dodge thief burst, you can’t dodge what’s on that video. Mesmer damage is NOT justified.

The only people thieves can kill instantly are other glass who run around with 1k toughness and 14k hp with no defensive cool downs, and even then they can react and avoid burst.

I have, you are committing a logical fallacy by begging the question. Continue to argue in circles.

interferenz.8739:

You dont think people can react in short time? Then why the hell am i always hearing: “l2p, dodge thieves attack”, even if they precast BS or Cnd before steal.

If you estimate steal range and roll as he gets in range you will dodge backstab combo against 90% of thieves.