Guild Wars 2

It’s kind of sad that no one realized he was slowed by a down-state Revenant and that nothing’s changed.

Muchacho.2143:

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread. I’m new to the game (just picked it up a month ago) and after watching your match this past week, you inspired me to give the thief a try. I’m only rank 30 in pvp so far, so obviously my experience won’t necessarily reflect that of people with higher MMR, but I’m having a fun time with your build. I love the mobility. None of the other classes I’ve tried give you as much freedom to move around the map. Any advice to somebody very new to the class?

Be persistent, keep practising and don’t blame others for losses – even if a win wouldn’t happen there is always something that you can improve on. Find it and fix it, win or loss.

Minlow.2874:

Hey Caed, what do you think about the Steal change? How much does this affect the class and your builds?

Annoying. The change babies players – hopefully it gets reverted.

Invictorum.7643:

In terms of WvW, would your D/P or Staff builds work well enough? The first two on your twitch page.

Both should work.

dedeih.1756:

Haven’t been able to read the whole thread and you have probably gotten this question a lot but is s/d still viable on the thief?

Not in my opinion, damage is too low and the survivability isn’t on par with other builds.

Stand The Wall.6987:

What traitline would you consider more important
Deadly Arts or Trickery?

Trickery

Invictorum.7643:

Honest question.

Do you think there’s a place for D/D thieves anymore? It’s a setup I’ve always loved since starting this game, and always seem to fall back on it. It generally serves me somewhat well in WvW.

Only thing I’d run D/D in would be PvE (raids), and the only time I’d take it over staff would be with a good/experienced group. Haven’t quite tested it but theoretically it should nudge out staff if your group knows how to control boss (where to pull VG, how to keep Gorseval and Sabetha still).

I’m have no words

Updated my stream with my version of competitive D/P. Palm Strike is more for queues/fun.

Ink.9058:

Caed,

You mentioned further up that you dropped daredevil runes for runes that offer more utility; care to share what runes you’ve been trying out?

Pack, Durability, Hoelbrak, Svanir (Double Necro), and any of the above mentioned. Runes can be used to slot against what you’re facing and help mitigate any weaknesses against those specific classes.

xavios.3601:

Urejt.5648:

Caed is trolling players into playing thief. He played rev in pro legue.

In PL you play to win, not to accommodate. If Thief would cause him to lose, yet Rev would cause him to win, its only natural he play Rev. Balancing is for after PL, not during.

It is a serious disrespect to someone who is pro league capable, who comes and hosts a Q&A to help out, to say that they are “trolling” because they played to win.

I just thought he was trolling ^^ I never played Rev in Pro Leagues, and I’m pretty bad at Rev.

assassin.7895:

The mobility might be better, but what about the rest? Any utility for your team except agility signet? How do you rez under AoE?
How do you even stealth with your build? If you use BP and/or get revealed, your decapping potential is already gone?

The cleave is hardly good in my opinion. How do you hit multiple enemies? The only time I reliably did, the enemy was downed. DPS is ok, but if you cleave, you’re very vulnerable. Just look at the awesome skill 5 staff Rev skill. Has serious damage and serious CC. Auto attacks hit hard as well, all while having several strong stuns with low cast time. Not talking about Condi Rev, because I’ve got no idea about that.
If a trap from DH hits you and interrupts your Vault/WS, what do you do? You just wasted initiative, I’d have a problem.

If you use D/P, your damage is simply too low to be able to compete with other classes.

By the way, Druid has more stealth than staff thief and the smokefield can be blasted. Other classes can use alacrity much better as well. Chrono is able to give you endurance and can make you passive dodge for 3-6 seconds, which is much stronger imo. You’re able to do damage while dodging and downed can be protected from cleave.

__

If you look at this statistic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/EU-Pro-League-Meta

Why does noone play thief? You can’t tell me noone of the best thieves on EU put thoughts and training on thief. I’ve actually seen Sindrener on staff thief and it seems like he didn’t stick with it, moved to Revenant. Also Red Levin played D/P in monthly tournament and he contributed very little to the team, he plays Revenant now.

If you don’t agree that’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. It’s fairly safe to say arguing further would be fairly pointless since you pick and choose what points you want to argue and ignore a lot of what I say. However I will say I’m fairly sure Sindrener plays to his team comp, which is vastly different compared to the people I play with. I already mentioned that D/P had a very specific role. If people can’t adapt to that or their team doesn’t present them with that role then they won’t be useful on the weapon set.

Eurantien.4632:

I would rather take a cavalier reaper as the tank or dire/sinister reaper that has just slightly higher toughness than everyone else. And then dps everyone else. I had no problem keeping my team alive as a full zerker Druid. + as ranged dps I could get into all the Lightning circles.

There’s a lot more passive damage in Sab and Goes. I don’t think full Zerker would work at that point because if you let anyone go down you begin to suffer huge dps loss overall by having to res. Found zealot’s as a happy medium but that’s just what I experienced.

Azukas.1426:

Not nit picking but in the qualifier match, while you played good, you weren’t much of a factor in that match up. I watched you get easily pressured off point and have to be carried by the tankier classes in your comp.

I’m very interested in how thief plays out in actual pro league where the disparity of talent isn’t so large as in the match you guys played. I mean what would have happened if they played 2 points from the get go?

Don’t take this personal as my observation in no way reflects you as a player but illustrates the performance of the class instead.

You’re not going to offend me. I honestly didn’t play well at all. I’m still learning how to manage evades, not to mention landing them consistently, as well as landing vaults. But the value of Impact Strike increases tremendously against bunker comps for ensuring kills. It allows you to begin to snowball the map with numbers advantage and can negate the res potential that those comps offer.

As for getting pressured that’s on my poor positioning and eating things I shouldn’t have. We don’t have any tanky players after the tempest in our comp by the way – so for getting carried I’d argue that aspect.

Thief still offers good damage against bunkers, even through protection – and it comes back to securing your kills with Impact Strike. You could replace a thief with a Revenant, but against bunkers it wouldn’t provide as much unless you went with Demon stance for boon rip, and even then that could hinder your survivability and doesn’t secure your kills after you down them. If players learn how and when to Impact Strike the affect of negating downstate is huge. There are trade-offs to everything and you just have to weigh what you value in a composition to make a decision on what to bring.

Just to clarify and reiterate, I think the people who play Thief are just too used to being considered required and aren’t adapting to the meta. Thief isn’t required to be competitive anymore but that doesn’t mean it’s weak. Utilize what it offers and adapt to other people whether it’s through your build or your play-style (or both).

assassin.7895:

I want to get this question answered:
What does thief do better than other classes? Why should anyone pick a thief in his comp?

-Impact Strike has no comparison – it’s by far one of the best clutch abilities in the game.
-Thief mobility still is better than any other class. If you pair that with stealth nothing will chase you (Rev/DH can’t chase without a target).
-Thief cleave on staff is probably the highest out of viable builds available to classes
-Thief gives team mates evades (nothing else will refill endurance instantly).

Yes, other classes are good and while Thief is no longer necessary to be competitive that doesn’t mean that it’s weak. People are too used to being able to do everything they wanted without much thought or skill. The class is in a good spot, it requires good decision making and strong mechanics. Sure, other classes are easier to play but that doesn’t mean that they’re able to do more. It’s another skill floor vs skill ceiling debate.

deda.8302:

Just curious have you tried evasion runes?
Its not 100% crit as DD runes but it comes close…

The boon duration on dodge are too minimal for the cool-down with the boons they give you. Crippling Strike from the rune set is also extremely underwhelming. I think the set would be extremely good if it were Protection and/or Aegis on dodge instead of Fury and Swiftness. Both of them overlap with Thrill of the Crime.

Recently I have been taking Thrill over Flanking as Haste only affects Staff auto attacks and Dust Strike. This let me swap off Daredevil runes and get a lot more utility out of my rune choice.

PureLuck.8795:

Thanks for the reply Caed, it clears things up for me. Unfortunately I have to agree with those just above me and conclude that even though Thief can cope, it can’t fairly compete at this moment.

Best of luck!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I can only offer a different perspective.

Mizu Misa.8730:

Thank you very much @ OP

I really liked you’re reasoning on why you used certain things over other’s. I’ve also read a few of you’re comments further on.
After the patch hit I found S/P to be fitting me well, I will probably make some changes based on you’re guidance on trait selection and utility’s.

I would like to hear you’re thougts on S/P and also distracting daggers.
I’ve been running this build for the last 2 weeks or so but I don’t have exp with high tier players.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsaVn8lCdmilOBGOBkmiFaCzLM8FKDzVwP4IULAMhiAA-TJBFABCcCAEvMQN7PAwDAAA

You will have a very hard time clearing conditions on this build, as you rely solely on Infiltrator’s Return. That leaves you little initiative to counter-pressure if you get focused and you cannot sustain playing defensively on a Thief. If you play this try to be diligent about evading conditions. I would also recommend taking Brawler’s Tenacity if you’re going to run that heal (not to mention the other physical skills). It will help to have the CDR. Personally I wouldn’t take Revealed Training on PW – maybe on D/P but you might expend too much initiative and endurance getting into stealth to make full use of it without putting yourself in a bad spot. As for Executioner I think Improvisation just outclasses it as I stated earlier, however it’s far from bad. You may have trouble getting someone to 50% so try to +1 fights that are already happening more than starting them.

Distracting Daggers just seems redundant to me when you have pistol OH. I don’t think it’s horrible but I find it hard to fit on a build and I think the only sets it may work well with are S/D and P/D. That’s just my experience though.

Urejt.5648:

Is staff rly same dps as dagger? staff has 1/2 sec casting time while dagger 1/4!

Tool-tips can be deceiving. There are three parts to a cast. Pre-cast (or the actual cast time), Activation (the point in which the ability goes off, whether it’s a heal, the connection of an attack to an enemy, or the point where a projectile begins to fly in the air), and after-cast. After-cast is something people don’t notice, don’t talk about, and isn’t explained by tool-tips.

A lot of skills have after-cast, which affect the speed of which you can do anything after the activation point. A few abilities that have after-cast are Withdraw, Updraft, certain auto-attacks, Disabling Shot, Flanking Strike, and Vault. These are skills that you cannot break the animation through stow weapon. Vault, Flanking, and Disabling shot are somewhat counter-intuitive as their activation is actually instant at the point of the evade instead of the point of connection (compare Vault to Eviscerate, which you can stow. Eviscerate has a decent cast time but minimal after-cast where Vault actually is instant due to the evade. Skills like these properly record after-cast but skills with both cast times and after-cast only show cast times on the tool-tip). So while dagger autos show a faster cast time on the tool-tip there is a large after-cast on Wild Strike, resulting in the entire chain taking roughly 2 seconds – the same amount of time for the entire chain of staff which has minimal after-cast.

As a side note – one way to think about skills like Withdraw and Updraft is that you can’t cast them while dazed. True instant skills can be cast while CC’d (Steal, for example).

PureLuck.8795:

Thanks for sharing your builds and opinions Caed. I can’t however, understand how you can say Thief is ‘fine’. I’m not a PvP god, but before HoT I could definitely hold my own playing Thief. Nowadays I feel completely useless. Can’t kill except in +1 situations, all I can do is run and decap. Now, this could be attributed to my skill level, but upon viewing some recordings of your streams I notice that you don’t get a lot of kills yourself. For a player with as much experience in this class as yourself, this can’t be a good sign? Maybe I’ve been watching the wrong recordings, or we differ in our views on the Thief’s roll.

I’ve tried different builds and playstyles for a couple of days, but nothing seems viable enough to warrant me spending time playing Thief. I’m beginning to feel like the concept of the Thief is flawed. It’s either too powerful, or too weak. It’s squishyness is not balancing out the massive damage it used to have when played right, because of it’s stealth and mobility. Take away/nerf the damage and all you have left is a squishy class that’s only strength is mobilty. This, I sadly conclude, is quite an accurate description of Thief’s current state.

I really hope I’m wrong.

I have a disclaimer but it’s fairly easily missed. I do not play the same in queues as I do in tournaments. Queues are usually just for fun, I mess around and I put myself in situations I wouldn’t in a competitive setting just to see certain situations and try to improve or pick up on things I can work on. Realistically speaking Thief match-ups are back to what they used to be somewhere in 2013. Things are fairly 50-50 across a lot of classes, with DH, Druid, and Tempest having advantages (5-95 or Higher, 15-85, 30-70 respectively) and Thief holding advantage over Reaper, Mesmer, and Warrior (75-25, 70-30, 95-5). Keep in mind these numbers are just estimates and more towards my interpretation. It’s almost always better to avoid 1v1 on Thief because you can out-rotate and attempt to snowball the map before your opponent can catch up.

Thief also holds a place in team fights. It has good survivability, can stick on targets, can get out of fights, can instant stomp, and has huge amounts of cleave. I don’t see it as overly squishy – I think Reapers, Dragonhunters (depends a little on their utilities), and Warriors are far easier to lock down and kill as a team under most circumstances. They have few options for escaping being trained in comparison to Thief.

So yea, I honestly think Thief is fine competitively. It’s not bad, it’s not the best – but it’s more than viable and brings some unique things (impact strike, mainly). If other classes get toned down it will be in a good spot. I don’t think it needs buffs, at all. I don’t want more power creep in the game because it’s a lot harder to balance at that point. I think the overall design of Daredevil is good, and the only thing I don’t like is staff 2 (Weakening Charge) due to it being extremely clunky.

Iohanna.4863:

Narcasis, do you forsee a similar Staff + Shortbow build working out in Raids and Fractals?

Palm Strike over blinding powder, Executioner over Improvisation, Channeled Vigor over Withdraw. Drop Trickster for Bountiful – keep Thrill of the Crime. Scholar Runes, Zerker gear (can go with mix of Zerker/Marauder if your group sucks).

Kolly.9872:

I feel like I’m having more success with d\p using your traits build. But I guess cos I’m fighting still few people with reveal. For you staff is still superior to D/P?

It honestly depends on what you’re fighting and your team. If you’re on a tankier team D/P will work because they can hold their own without you being in the fight for a while. Your role becomes to wait until someone is low enough to gank. As far as match-up on D/P go it’s dependant heavily on their stability access (Pulmonary Impact). Overall staff is more flexible/adaptable to a wider array of situations than D/P is, while D/P is extremely effective at the one thing it does (Stealth and gank).

Wargameur.6950:

Don’t you think that S/D is in a good spot now ? I feel like the combo infiltrator’s strike + fist flurry is a really high dammage burst, which was lacking on that set.

I find S/D lacking in usefulness. They don’t really bring very much. The reason staff works is that it provides AoE cleave with survivability. S/D has some evades but staff overshadows it with Staff Master returning endurance.

herzeleid.3719:

What do you think about this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn0MB9OhFOBWmCkmiFqiyLEShSoLCCgDYu63+xH-TZBFABiXGom9Ha7SAswRAAgHAAA

I kind of feel better with Acrobatics instead of Deadly Arts. Hard to Catch has nice synergy with Bounding Dodger and I feel I get into situations where I need an extra Stun break quite often. I like the extra Vigor that adds a lot to my survivability and it doesn’t feel like sacrificing too much damage. I’m not really sure about the grandmaster though, none of them seems really good.

Utilities:

I really like the interupt and damage on short cooldown of Fist Flurry although I know there might be better utilities. I’m getting the “No Valid Path” message very often, so on certain maps Shadowstep became a bit unreliable to me. (probably a l2p issue) I might try Scorpion Wire as some of you sugested, but it seems very unreliable too in many situations. I tried Smoke Screen and that seemed fun.

1 vs 1 Situations:

Besides of Dragonhunter and Tempest I too have big problems fighting Druids (takes forever) and especially Sword (Staff) Revenants. I haven’t found a good way to counter Sword 3 yet without blowing too many dodges at once. If I don’t dodge at least twice I’ll find myself dead in most situations. Then they switch to staff and CC-kill me with Staff 5 – Does anyone have advice?

I guess “aiming” and actually hitting foes is one of my big problems with staff. I find it hard to hit good players with Dust Strike and Vault because of the long telegraphs both abilities have. It’s similar with Bounding Dodger. All of those abilities are pretty easy to evade, you can literally just move out of the way. So I have to kind of anticipate where my enemies will move.

Anyway, cheers, and have great fights,
herzeleid

It’s not a build I’d run, but if it works for you then use it. You lose a lot of utility (Mug, Panic Strike, Improvisation, Serpent’s/Lotus) and Damage (Mug, Exposed Weakness) from dropping Deadly Arts. Shadowstep is also the last utility I would drop. It’s a lower cool-down than RFI and clears seperate conditions (Withdraw). Palm Strike is a nice offensive utility but too hard for me to fit into staff because I need another way out if things go South where I am.

As for match-ups. Avoid fighting Druids and Tempests alone if they’re running meta builds. Revenant is mainly about timing. You can usually land a Vault at the end of Unrelenting and trade with them. Make sure you land your Steal. The Essence Sap is extremely good against them. You should be able to avoid Staff 5 in most situations. If you get hit by it it’s usually better to stun-break immediately than to wait and see if the rest hit you.

herzeleid.3719:

Can anyone give me some advice on how to play this? Is there a video out there?

I keep loosing against pretty much any class in 1 vs 1 situations. Except maybe warri.

I know I’m not a good player, but I really wonder how you guys make it work.

I stream occasionally, link is below.

Cynz.9437:

if camping downstate is what thief suppose to do, then yeah thief is fine~

If you spent as much time in the game as you do whining on forums you might actually improve.

Thief is fine.

Nero.6813:

Speaking of weakening charge, when do you use this skill? I really only use this skill for my opener and I’m not really sure when else I need it. It feels kinda strange to use since it locks you into the animation.

Against Tempests mainly. Significantly reduces their damage output and survivability if you keep it up. Against anything else it’s probably only good in combination with Steal, but I usually use other things in that case. The other situation is peeling burst classes off team mates where the weakness can give them some breathing room. It would be my least favourite skill on the weapon set.

As for the openers. The only thing I would consider an opener is what I use to close the gap and begin a fight – everything after that point is reactionary or has a purpose, not a rotation. Bound/Steal, Weakening Charge/Steal, Dust Strike/Steal, Bound -> Vault. It would depend on the situation and what I’m fighting.

Hammerguard.9834:

How do you feel about Smokescreen over Blinding Powder? I feel like Blinding Powder doesn’t offer enough for it’s cooldown. Or even Shadow Refuge being used as a blind spam (with leap finishers), heal, and de-targeting tool?

I don’t like the cast time. It’s too long to be a defensive cool-down when you need it. Easily interrupted and can’t be cast while CC’d. If you don’t like Blinding Powder you can run whatever you want, but I already explained Refuge and I think Smokescreen only works as utility, and not as a defensive skill.

Zaerah.1630:

It was really surprising to see that you value dust strike so highly as it is the skill that i probably use least. Though it also may be that the build i run is more defensive and it really feels like i have to save ini for vault if i want to kill something in reasonable time.

The skill often hits twice as it travels (happens most while people run away). If both are critical hits it will land around 3.5-4.5k damage with sigils. The range is also respectable, and it makes kiting staff much more difficult.
It will clear things like Bandit’s Defence and Counter-attack (it will proc the counter and blind it at the same time). Blind is also a very valuable utility for covering downtime in dodges.

I have no schedule, generally stream when I find free time and I’m not exhausted. If you want to know when I stream the best thing to do is probably follow and set up the notification.

D/P is largely team dependent. Staff is more versatile. Both are viable although I largely prefer staff over D/P. It has better match-ups, better team fight presence, and is generally more survivable. In the end of the day it’ll depend on how you play and your team, however I don’t think Thief needs buffs at all. Small quality of life changes perhaps, but the class is fine.

Edit: Anet censors the silliest things…

Stand The Wall.6987:

Do you ever find uncatchable to be of any use?

Not exactly something I’d run but the cripple could help land vault depending on if you can stack it high enough. Flanking Strikes only affects your auto chain and Dust Strike, while Thrill of the Crime is probably more consistent, and provides team support. I would probably take Thrill over Uncatchable.

MADAIR.1948:

what the HECK do you do about run speed? I feel sooooo slow without swiftness!

You have Infiltrator’s Arrow for mobility ^^

Melandru Runes are also a viable option against Conditions. Runes seem to be a lot more of a choice/counter-play option since the expansion than what they used to be.

Coronit.9432:

Yep, I like DrD-runes with D/P as well. Dodging and getting a guaranteed crit with maybe heartseeker, shadowshot or backstab in some situations is really nice. Bad side is that you have to be infight, but whatever. Stats are great together with the bonus of 6. effect. Power > Precision > Ferocity, so…
I´m not sure about DrD or Pack though.
Furthermore the question about sigil of fire/blood. Blood gives definitly better sustain (think about it like that —> I does mostly like 630 on normal D/P-build --> making around 1200 difference of health each time —> advantage) . The fact that fire scales with +X% is very interesting as well.

I´m very happy about that post. It gives a lot information to other thieves (I know a hell lot about “thief” in general, but I´m always happy to learn new things.
Still experimenting with D/P, S/D and staff.
SD has some stupid aftercasts, weird animation cause of all the nerfs happended. Larcenious should definitly do more damage and steal 2 boons again.
staff is a two-edged-sword again. A lot of people still can´t dodge vault, while its very vulnerable to intterrupts or AOE in the end of the animation.
Dash is great in skirmishing. Going into fights and disengage often. Bound is great if used correctly. I´m not sure which is better. Having the effect with normal animation would be much more efficient. Funny that we have to fight against our grandmaster-traits (the distance of dash can be great of course, but not when you fight).

Another huge point is bountiful theft vs trickster. I think bountiful theft is generally better then trickster, but in your staff-build you definitly need some condi-clear. I hate that decision. Trickster should clear 2 conditions imo to make it really on par and a “good decision” and not a decision that has to be made because of crappy alternatives for condi-clear.

I don’t use Daredevil runes with D/P – only on staff.
Blood only heals around 400. I can’t say for certain but I’d estimate the life-steal at around 2/3 of the damage it does.
I haven’t used Bountiful since the trait changes. I prefer the shorter CD withdraw and it pairs nicely with Flanking Strikes. Bountiful is good, but it depends on what you value and how you play in the end. If I had reliable condition clear from other sources I would probably take Bountiful Theft, Brawler’s Tenacity and Channelled Vigor.

Tarkan.5609:

I’m usually solo roaming in WvW (sometimes PvPing, less since my team broke up), played around with a yolo P/P + Staff Build (Vault + Dash + Staff Mastery got some mobility really close to SB + Dash!)

I tried out this build today

It’s close to Caeds but with Infiltrator’s Signet over Blinding Powder (can do some nice bursts with Staff #2 and Steal/IS), Dash over Bound for mobility and immob-immunity, using the new healing skill (absolutely love it) and therefore not using the Trickster-TR-Variant but the “usual”/“normal” TR trait spread

in short: I use Dash over Bound in WvW, the mobility and immob-immunity is just so nice there, in PvP I prefer Bound though

Some infos about the build

hide spoiler

It’s weak against conditions but for some reason I don’t see a lot of condi builds running around lately which is a blessing… usually if I go up against condi opponents I make sure to have Shadowstep off CD, get a few hits off to see whether I can burst the opponent and how many conditions he is able to load on me. Then I decide whether I wanna condi clear using Shadowstep+Run, of whether I wanna burst some more to end the fight

you could replace shortbow with a different weapon (as Staff’s mobility is close to SB’s, as mentioned above) but I like to have a ranged option, P/D’s kiting is not needed as you’ve got dash and P/P got some burst but no defense… (you could self stealth yourself for a few seconds though with Blinding Powder + double Vault)

rage rune is because i don’t need pack’s swiftness but wanna have perma fury with TotC, the +5% damage also making up for some lost power due to marauder weapons

I really like my stats as they are:

• 2460 Power without BL, 2700 with Bloodlust
• ~57% crit chance and perma fury
• 14k HP, usually 15k while in WvW (my sweet spot)
• 2150 toughness (base toughness, never increase it)
• 221% crit dmg

The only thing I’d really suggest is dropping Havoc Mastery for Brawler’s Tenacity. In WvW you have a large amount of damage as is, being able to heal more often will also result in more endurance giving you more options – however that’s partly because I’d take Bound over Dash.

Using Daredevil runes for the Intelligence Proc and not so much for raw stats. However runes are largely choice as I think there are a lot of good options. Scholar and Pack are two more that do well.

messiah.1908:

i will ask again why take DA over CS
you loss improvisation but get perma fury and about 30% – 41% more dmg
so with extra dmg you can take with DD weakening strike and escapist absolution

The damage from CS is critical damage modifiers. They are additive with other critical damage modifiers, however pure damage modifiers alter the base damage, before critical damage is calculated. This leads to a larger damage increase from pure damage modifiers. To give an example:

10% damage Modifier vs 10% critical damage modifier when you have 200% crit damage.
Critting for 1,000 under the +10% critical damage will crit for 3,100 damage.
Critting for 1,000 under the +10% damage modifier will hit for 1,100, then crit for 3,300 damage.

The reason for explaining this is to say that the 10% damage modifier from Deadly Arts is more effective than the 10% critical damage modifier from Critical Strikes. Before the patch I used to play DA/CS/TR. I had to choose to drop one trait line in order to pick up Daredevil. I chose to drop Critical Strikes for a couple reasons.

1. The damage loss from CS was actually passed and outdone by the damage gain from Daredevil. Daredevil provided pure damage modifiers versus Critical Strike’s critical damage modifiers.
2. You already have over 60% critical chance with Marauder amulet, which is sufficient without fury – and to add to that your team will often provide you with fury and a plethora of other boons.
3. Deadly Arts provides a myriad of other things I would not give up for only critical damage and permanent fury. Mug is overlooked as our largest source of sustain. It heals roughly half our health bar every minute (granted you land steal). Panic Strike is good at catching people and landing finishing blows (Vault, Backstab, Bound + Steal). Improvisation, as I stated earlier, is one of the best traits in the game – and I said that before it gave you 2 stolen abilities. The chance to instantly reset your utilities is huge when they have such a high impact (no pun intended) on fights.

Furthermore, you take Staff Master for the Endurance Regeneration and not so much for the damage. That is just an added bonus.

Belgarion.1975:

I have see some “radius” tool tips, did you know if its can multi-stomp ?

It can only hit one target, and the target cannot be stealthed (not sure if this is bugged or not). If you get blinded or interrupted it will miss and end the chain.

Fistandanthilus.6824:

This is completely true!

I think this is non intended behavior, and should be corrected.
I have been finished several times with a Finishing Blow without passing through downed state.
*Finishing Blow: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Finishing_Blow
The skill clearly specifies it will finish downed players. It should not finish alive players (non-downed) with low health.

This is clearly a bug and a correction of it will not mean it is a Nerf, contrary to what many people think, because it is a correction of a non-intended mechanic.

On the contrary, if Anet clarifies this out and changes the Tooltip to allow this behavior, it will mean it is a Buff to this skill (non intended beneficial behavior made intended = BUFF)

Nevertheless, I main also thief and was able to test a bit the Daredevil thanks to a friend who bought HoT and let me test it.

The build I most like is:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYFn0MhlOBGOBkmiFYCzLNcGaDzdwSYLULBEA2NA-TZBFABCcCAEvMQJ7PswhAAgnAAA
Which leaves an utility skill free to choose (in order of preference) between:
*Infiltrator Signet
*Blinding Powder
*Roll for Initiative
*Distracting Daggers (I would use Impacting Disruption trait and Weakening Strikes trait in this case)

I cannot leave the mobility Infiltrator Strike and Infiltrator Return (#2 sword) gives me to engage and disengage and clean conditions. And cannot leave the boon steal and unblock-able damage from Larcenous Strike. That´s why I prefer sword over staff.

I think Escapist Absolution trait to clean conditions is very good, because there will be always damage around which can be dodge to clean conditions (from pets, clones, minions, etc) and when it is a strictly 1 v 1 with no pets or minions involved, I think the enemy cant just stand still without attacking or doing anything after a condi burst while I am still hitting him

Impact Strike is intended as is.

As for the build. Strength Runes should be replaces – You have no self might stacking and might is the second to last boom stolen from Larcenist Strike.
I still prefer Bound over Dash, but overall that is probably the trait spread I would use if I wanted to play S/D. I don’t think it provides as much as other weapon sets at the moment though.

rennlc.7346:

Hi, Caed. Have you had trouble with players becoming better at timing their attacks to land during the ~1/4 sec during Vault where we aren’t evading? Also, have you had trouble with Revenants who fight Staff Thieves very defensively (basically rotating between blocks, Shiro rolls, dodge rolls, and Glint heal to buy time between Unrelenting Assaults)? I’ve found Staff to be sooo much better against teams that have 4-5 cele, soldiers, and/or bunker builds. However, I generally still play D/P because players with more offensive builds have been nailing me with CC and bursts during my Vaults. Also, Revenants are learning that without stealth I can’t maintain the dodges necessary to continually counter UA unless I interrupt it with Steal and get Improv to reset a utility like Blinding Powder, Signet of Agility, or Roll for Initiative.

You are playing more skilled players than I am more regularly, are more inclined to 1v1 and hold point than someone of my skill level, and have mostly stuck with Staff despite probably facing these counters more often. Have you had similar trouble? If so, how have you adapted your play to counter or play around these counters to Staff?

Most of the match-up depends on your timings out of Unrelenting and shield blocks. If you find yourself having trouble against Revenants try to get a feel for their cool-downs and keep track of their endurance bar. You will begin to notice the small timings where you can land steal. Unrelenting timings are fairly easy to get used to as well (double dodge and Vault. The Vault should land and will crit due to Daredevil runes if you choose to run them). Also look around at where you are fighting. Find the areas with no valid path for teleporting and begin to get used to Vaulting to them. Staff is extremely good for abusing terrain advantage.

As for people timing their attacks/CC on the vulnerability frame of Vault just begin to learn the players that you fight – people have their own habits. Once you begin to see how they think then you can play around it pretty easily. There are players who try to daze everything (Pulmonary Impact Thieves) in which you just start a cast and stow a couple times. They will burn through their entire initiative bar and you can kill them quickly. And then there are those who only wait for the vuln frames – these players you have to be aggressive with. Start covering your Vaults with blinds from Dust Strike and make sure you land your Bound – forcing them on the defensive will give you a lot of room to be able to land Vaults without being interrupted.

pupi.2465:

Ahh, another thing, also, I find CrtStrikes do better with Staff, with the healing trait, at least it fitted well on the Staff dmg, DD seems to me that its dmg “needs” a condi on the target, and i barely uses Weakeing Charge, what you think Caed?

Personally I wouldn’t drop Trickery and I prefer Mug/Improvisation over Crit Strikes. I also wouldn’t take Invigorating Precision over No Quarter. The healing is minimal for the trade off in damage. Counter-pressure is often a better defence than playing defensively.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Scorpion Wire is only buggy if used more than 600 range. Since I’m using a Staff, ScorpWire have not failed me when used in melee range. The ability to interrupt while cleansing is, to me, greater than burst cleanse. I personally do not like seeing my cleanse skill out in CD when I need it or do I like letting the conditions on me tick. Besides in a team fight, I can rely on my teammate to use an AoE cleanse and in that situation, Shadowstep is a dead skill in my bar while if I have ScorpWire, I can use it as an interrupt.

I’ve always been a proponent of running what works for you, as different players have different playstyles, mindsets, habits, etc and should run what they feel most comfortable with. All I can do is provide my perspective and try to give clarification for the reasoning behind it.

Drennon.7190:

When I run Sb/Staff, I feel like thieves and revs hunt me down all game. Any tips for disengaging against them?

Don’t try to run, you will waste your cool-downs attempting to get to the next point and be fairly useless once there. Turn on them – you can kill both Revenants and other Thieves.

Edit; If you must run Blinding Powder and Infiltrator’s Arrow will get you out. It depends on whether your team is alive and they know how to rotate/are map aware.

Serious Thought.5394:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqaVn0MB1OhVmCGmCkmiFYCzLMEHaDzfwSYLULBEA2NA-TJBFABCcKAiZ/BxLDAwTAAA

Any suggestions for change? Also, why Staff over d/p? You can go SA/TR/DD and get an amazingly high amount of survivability+burst. Honestly just very, very curios- DP still seems like the go to weapon set even with the new traitline.

Shadow Arts was only ever good for ressing. There’s too much cleave and Revenant is fairly prevalent, negating Shadow Arts resses. SA also has pathetic burst – both of those being negated you’re effectively a decap not. I also explained that staff has more staying power, and more damage, than D/P. After a burst you have no safe follow-up with D/P where staff has a large amount of evades allowing you to continue to apply pressure. The set is also AoE while doing similar damage (safely). Currently if you pressure a D/P Thief after their burst, or if you land a reveal (Revenant), they will die with stealth as their only safety.

As for the build you linked. Bandit’s Defense is useless in team fights as multiple people hitting you will break the block, sending you into another psuedo CC as you hopelessly attempt to kick someone. The ability also procs out of range quite often. Scorpion wire is buggy, and if you want condition clear (assuming that’s partly why you took it with Trickster removing a condition with a 16s cool-down) you might as well take Shadowstep. The condition clear is about the same (3 every 48 seconds with Scorpion Wire vs 50 seconds with Shadowstep) and burst clear is always better than 1 condition clear as you can cover damaging conditions with trash conditions (vulnerability, cripple, weakness, etc). Pistol/pistol is also something I wouldn’t run as it has no defensive abilities within the weapon set itself. I also believe Bound’s damage buff completely out classes Dash’s damage mitigation.

Edited for spelling… Tablets like to think they’re smart.

Luto.1938:

I tried to recreate your build in the build editor. This look correct?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn0MBlOhFOBmPBkmiFYCzLMEHaDzdwR4KULBEA2NA-TZBFABC8EAEvMQ87PswhAAgLAAA

Yes. I use Air over Fire on shortbow.

Build links can be found on my twitch page – there’s a link to it in my signature, and the build links are in info.

Dakarius.3284:

edit: Overall how well do you think thief stacks up in 1v1 and in general meta usefulness?

Thief can carry a team fight with Impact Strike, heavy damage, and stealth if you take it. You retain map mobility with shortbow, keeping +1 and decap presence. 1v1’s are dependent on your skill, the match-ups to avoid regardless of skill I’ve listed above.

The D/P build focuses more on eliminating a single target quickly and is generally more situational than staff. D/P seems to have fallen into a niche role against specific classes and offering team stealth, whereas staff is always good – in my opinion.

D/P has one trait change from staff, dropping Staff Master for Pulmonary Impact. As for utilities I take Fist Flurry as the 3rd utility (keeping both Shadowstep and Signet of Agility), and I replace Impact Strike with Basilisk Venom. This build will feel similar to older Thief metas. It’s a very heavy single-target damage build. Basilisk will allow you to hit a full Fist Flurry, which can 100-0 squishy classes such as Thief or Mesmer. Pulmonary Impact allows you to deal with Tempests and Druids fairly easily.

Classes to avoid one on one: Dragonhunter (explained above), Engineers with Elixer B (Stability), and competent Reapers (Stability from Deathshroud makes a large difference between normal Necromancers and Reapers).

Not going to go too much into depth on D/P unless prompted as it’s been in the game since release. Feel free to ask whatever.

I will write about D/P after my next class. Feel free to ask questions about anything and I’ll get to them as well.