Guild Wars 2

Glass Cannon doesn’t work whit Hammer.Hammer is for tanky builds as well as mace and shield.Greatsword and AXE is for power builds.

kKagari.6804:

gamefreak.5673:

I miss being able to fear him during that attack already.

This. I used to teach every new necromancer to fear his collapsing roof attack.

uhmm why?Its the best phase to DPS him.Even the scream atack.I find him way more scary when he’s down chasing and jumping people.

BS is already the worst build Thief has for PvP and you want that to be nerfed..pshh realy inteligent people.

People underestimate the power of Short Bow but it has insane damage.On trash mobs it does up to 10k cluster bombs .I posted a screen shot on first page I think.Its certainly better than Warrior range and its aoe .Warrior bow seemed pretty good while leveling ,never got the chance to test it on level 80.I rarely see anyone using it so it must not be that good.But all in all , trash mobs are not important.

Glass Cannon of course .That means ..
30 Criticals strikes: 20% more damage under 50% , fury at 50% , and another 1 of your prefference , I preffer(for no reason) the 10% chance on critical to get quickness.I love the random quickness you get and you’d be surprised how often that is.You could go for might on signet but I don’t use signets in PvE because they are kitten.
20-30 Deadly Arts:Damage when stealing , its just amazing damage .40% for vulnerability on critical , very good.And 5% Dagger Damage.
Next you can go in Shadow Arts and get 2 initiative on stealth trait or blinds. Or trickery for 5% more damage from the back and sides or fury-swiftness-might for you and the whole party for 10s.Or both and less in DA.Up to you and the situation.

Bull kitten.
Either you have no idea what you’re doing or you lied.Why I don’t seem to have those issues.You wont see a thief running out of initiative lol.
Only whit that 2 initiative on stealth trait I did 8 combos before I ran out of initiative and 1 roll for initiative and steal and my initiative is back to full.Shadow refuge also refils your initiative completly .Why do you talk bs?You probaly didn’t even tried.

Epic Cactus.9723:

Nighty, I just tried out your rotation for kittens and giggles
I even used every +initiative trait, dual wield daggers on both slots for the +initiative on weapon swap and equipped Infiltrator’s Signet. Needless to say that the build is completely kitten and unusable…
Anyway, I went to town on some dummies and did what you do to outdamage warriors; [1,1,1 5 1 2] and, oh wonder, it was NOT sustainable, after a few rotations I ran out of initiative.

So, there you have it, your “evidence” (quotation marks, since providing no information about gear, stats, buffs and debuffs makes for questionable proof at best) of Thieves out-dpsing Warriors doesn’t hold up.

q.e.d.

Of course its sustainable.You have plenty of ways to refil initiative.And you can always get the trait for 2 initiative each time you stealth and that way you never run out of initiative while doing that combo.

Lag is not a factor.
I don’t lag.
And you can easily do C&D -BS-A round of Normal hits-C&D -BS roughly in the time it takes to do Hundred blades.And even if it takes 1-2 seconds longer its still much more than a Warrior and I can still continue while you need to wait for cooldown.
I’ve been competing whit my whit my fellow Warrior guild friends so I know for sure Thief DPS is bigger and you’re welcome to try for yourself.

Ohh what you’re opened to discuss now?I thought you’re done here.
All other factors such as lag ,after cast and team composition are atribuited to both classes so you don’t have to necesarely take them into consideration.
I’ve been going through all the dungeons glass cannon whit both Warrior and Thief , and I never had any issue surviving.That leaves you down to Damage.Thief damage is far superior to Warriors . It might not be double in practice like in theory whit the screen shot but its still bigger.Thief skills have no cast time and they are almost instant.Anyone who plays Thief and Warrior will tell you that Thief dps is bigger.Don’t get fooled by the bigger numbers.

Gab Superstar.4059:

NightyNight.1823:

The proof is to Thief doing more damage than Warrior.And I highly doubt you play a thief and even if you did you don’t know how to play it otherwise you wouldn’t have said that.

Oooooooooooooo-k I am done here.

If you cannot even understand the basics of what a proof is, there is no point in trying to discuss anything here.

I presented an argument , I presented evidence(screen shots) and can be easily validated.If you’re having troubles defining proof I sugest a dictionary.The only one having troubles of comprehension its , sadly ,you.Now please ,you’re welcome to get lost.

The proof is to Thief doing more damage than Warrior.And I highly doubt you play a thief and even if you did you don’t know how to play it otherwise you wouldn’t have said that.

haviz.1340:

Isord.2751:

NightyNight.1823:

For you ,I bet.Its the most idiotic argument I’ve ever heard.

Please elaborate. Why would you pick a thief over a class that could solo the hardest boss in the game?

Thieves can’t solo him because they depend on stealth. Plus, only certain proffesions can get out of the necrid trap with simple dodge.

Its beside point but no.It can be done both melee whit S/D and easier, range whit short bow.But again, its beside the point , just because you can or can’t solo Lupicus doesn’t mean anything.The whole game doesn’t run around Lupicus mechanics.Its just a boss , get over it.

Isord.2751:

NightyNight.1823:

Isord.2751:

NightyNight, if you are so good on thief, why don’t you show the rest of us a solo Lupicus kill?

Until you do, thief is still going to be bellow warrior in terms of utility in dungeons.

I don’t even need to adress that , its self explanatory.

No sir, i don’t think it is.

For you ,I bet.Its the most idiotic argument I’ve ever heard.

Isord.2751:

NightyNight, if you are so good on thief, why don’t you show the rest of us a solo Lupicus kill?

Until you do, thief is still going to be bellow warrior in terms of utility in dungeons.

I don’t even need to adress that , its self explanatory.

Gab Superstar.4059:

NightyNight.1823:

XGhoul.7426:

NightyNight.1823:

XGhoul.7426:

NightyNight.1823:

XGhoul.7426:

Strifey.7215:

Never met a thf that brings more to the grp for dps then warrior. Fury, might, and banner from warrior + heavy armor and naturally high health is way better for speed running most things. And no way shortbow is high dps.

+1.
I’ve almost given up bringing ANY theifs because they play like their profession is “Ranger” and spam on short bow from a distance 24/7

Did you even read the previous posts?10k Cluster bombs and 62k melee damage in 3 seconds? Wow you people are so ignorant.

I never edited my post which was in relation to Fractals, if you want me to eat my own words show me some 30+ fractals with theifs dealing “insane” damage as you claim (then it comes down to “does every theif run the same build?” most that I have played with have been next to useless so I don’t even bother after giving pugs a 1 month chance*)

We’re talking about damage potential so if Thief does bigger dammage than other classes outside fractals ,logicaly ,it will do bigger damage inside fractals aswell.Now choke on your words.
And don’t say Thief is bad because people are bad at it , thats not even an argument.

A theif does more damage than ANY other class because it is meant for a burst dps, (which is not sustainable over long periods of time) now in relation to Fractals again, damage is only 1 criteria for being successful, and support comes into play. Support wise, most theif’s have nothing to bring besides stealth (as far as my knowledge goes, welcome to be proven wrong) this is why although they provide the better damage, party wise they are not viable for a team build meant to support each other (shout warriors/ boon guardians/ elementalist heals/ etc.) and it goes back again to why I don’t bring them to my parties.

Now go and do your homework , I’m not here to teach you about the Thief proffesion.Don’t discriminate if you have no idea what you’re talking about.The only thing that I’m going to let you know is that , it is not a burst.That 62k is sustainable damage every 3-4 seconds .

- Go into a level 80 dungeon.
- Find a boss that does very little to you that would interrupt your DPS.
- Wail on him as much as you can.
- Record and upload here.

Do this and we can judge how good your DPS is. I’m not gonna say you are bullkittenting but from my experience there is no way in kittenland a thief would do more DPS than a warrior, but then again you might be sitting on a super secret build with monstrous DPS that has passed the community by entirely. If you do please share it because I would love to be able to play more professions in dungeons.

Go play thief yourself and tell me otherwise.And read the stupid previous posts.Proof is there.When you’ll play both Warrior and Thief like me then you’ll come and say the same thing.

XGhoul.7426:

NightyNight.1823:

XGhoul.7426:

NightyNight.1823:

XGhoul.7426:

Strifey.7215:

Never met a thf that brings more to the grp for dps then warrior. Fury, might, and banner from warrior + heavy armor and naturally high health is way better for speed running most things. And no way shortbow is high dps.

+1.
I’ve almost given up bringing ANY theifs because they play like their profession is “Ranger” and spam on short bow from a distance 24/7

Did you even read the previous posts?10k Cluster bombs and 62k melee damage in 3 seconds? Wow you people are so ignorant.

I never edited my post which was in relation to Fractals, if you want me to eat my own words show me some 30+ fractals with theifs dealing “insane” damage as you claim (then it comes down to “does every theif run the same build?” most that I have played with have been next to useless so I don’t even bother after giving pugs a 1 month chance*)

We’re talking about damage potential so if Thief does bigger dammage than other classes outside fractals ,logicaly ,it will do bigger damage inside fractals aswell.Now choke on your words.
And don’t say Thief is bad because people are bad at it , thats not even an argument.

A theif does more damage than ANY other class because it is meant for a burst dps, (which is not sustainable over long periods of time) now in relation to Fractals again, damage is only 1 criteria for being successful, and support comes into play. Support wise, most theif’s have nothing to bring besides stealth (as far as my knowledge goes, welcome to be proven wrong) this is why although they provide the better damage, party wise they are not viable for a team build meant to support each other (shout warriors/ boon guardians/ elementalist heals/ etc.) and it goes back again to why I don’t bring them to my parties.

Now go and do your homework , I’m not here to teach you about the Thief proffesion.Don’t discriminate if you have no idea what you’re talking about.The only thing that I’m going to let you know is that , it is not a burst.That 62k is sustainable damage every 3-4 seconds .

XGhoul.7426:

NightyNight.1823:

XGhoul.7426:

Strifey.7215:

Never met a thf that brings more to the grp for dps then warrior. Fury, might, and banner from warrior + heavy armor and naturally high health is way better for speed running most things. And no way shortbow is high dps.

+1.
I’ve almost given up bringing ANY theifs because they play like their profession is “Ranger” and spam on short bow from a distance 24/7

Did you even read the previous posts?10k Cluster bombs and 62k melee damage in 3 seconds? Wow you people are so ignorant.

I never edited my post which was in relation to Fractals, if you want me to eat my own words show me some 30+ fractals with theifs dealing “insane” damage as you claim (then it comes down to “does every theif run the same build?” most that I have played with have been next to useless so I don’t even bother after giving pugs a 1 month chance*)

We’re talking about damage potential so if Thief does bigger dammage than other classes outside fractals ,logicaly ,it will do bigger damage inside fractals aswell.Now choke on your words.
And don’t say Thief is bad because people are bad at it , thats not even an argument.

XGhoul.7426:

Strifey.7215:

Never met a thf that brings more to the grp for dps then warrior. Fury, might, and banner from warrior + heavy armor and naturally high health is way better for speed running most things. And no way shortbow is high dps.

+1.
I’ve almost given up bringing ANY theifs because they play like their profession is “Ranger” and spam on short bow from a distance 24/7

Did you even read the previous posts?10k Cluster bombs and 62k melee damage in 3 seconds? Wow you people are so ignorant.

Of course we’re talking about damage and comparing damage because thats what you people claim that Warrior is best at and couldn’t be more wrong.As for support , any other class can do it in their own way and certainly do it better.To say that that warrior is the best because of the group support it brings its ridiculous.

Iehova.9518:

Do you want me to equip a sword and emberass Warrior some more?

Yes.

I play a Warrior I know what I’m talking about.

Just because you play a (95% probability of a 5-signet zerker Orr set) warrior doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about.

Anyone who plays a Warrior and a Thief will tell you that Warrior is not even half the potential of a thief.

Posting combat logs of autoattacks does not impress me. Post your solo Lupus kill.

Now because of what you just said right now , I don’t feel like talking to you anymore .Thanks, thats all.

Iehova.9518:

just because you do big numbers doesn’t necesarely means you do better damage , only proves your ignorance

Just because you do more damage, doesn’t necessarily mean you do more damage? What the kitten am I reading?

Come to me whit a hundred blades that hits 62.522

Do you really want me to 100blades a pack of 5 mobs and do 100k damage? ’Cause I do that on a regular basis.

You’re realy a smart one aren’t you.Take your head up your kitten and realise what you’re saying.Do you want me to equip a sword and emberass Warrior some more? I play a Warrior I know what I’m talking about.Anyone who plays a Warrior and a Thief will tell you that Warrior is not even half the potential of a thief.
I know that somehow you feel insulted that I’m downgrading your proffesion but how about you keep an open mind and realise you’re doing the same about other proffesions that you clearly have no idea about.

NightyNight.1823:

Lorana.2468:

NightyNight.1823:

Lorana.2468:

Guardian/Warrior are the only proffesion u need for dungeons atm.

none of the fights are complex enough to warrent using any other proffesion over these 2.

you will never beat a warriors dmg or a guardians supportive power, other proffesions are useless because nothing in this game requires the niche things they bring, all you need is Protection and Damage right now.

the answer would be more complex boss fights.

This kind of mentality needs to stop.I’m tired of people discriminating against other classes.
How are you so sure of what you’re saying Lorana?Do you play all the classes?No you don’t , if you did you would’ve known that Thief has practicaly double the DPS than a Warrior.A lot of other classes have comparable DPS if not even better than Warrior.
And whats with this obsession over support , you don’t need such a thing.This is GUILD WARS 2 , You don’t need to depend on other classes to survive.Self Heal is more than sufficient.
Guardian is probaly the last class I would take whit me in dungeons due to the lack of DPS.

your full of it
i know what im talking about because i have level 80 Guardian/Warrior/Mesmer & Engineer

my Mesmer/Engineer do nothing but mine Rich Ori once a day in Southsun, because the proffesion on a whole is useless right now in pve, why would i ever not use my Warrior/Guardian.

my mentality is one of being the most useful to my group, i do that by using the 2 best PvE proffesions in the game, i dont string my group along by wearing MF gear, and i wont be doing it by using a worse proffesion either.

backup your claim of thief dealing great damage, prove me wrong.

I do up to 27k crits on my Warrior myself , just because you do big numbers doesn’t necesarely means you do better damage , only proves your ignorance.You want proof that thief does better damage than Warrior? You got it!

To underline what I’ve already said , this is a screen shot of some numbers I pull whit my Thief in Arah.
Thats a total 62.522 .
To give you an idea of how fast that happened.
2x double strike = 0.25s
Wild Strike=0.25s
Lotus strike=0.25s
Cloak and Dagger =0.5s
Backstab=0.25s
Heartseeker=0.75s
Thats a total of 3.50 ? I wont do the maths again ,its tedius >.<
Now 3.50 is exacly the time it takes for a Warriors 100 blades to kick off.Come to me whit a hundred blades that hits 62.522.Or AXE Warrior whit damage that equals 62.522 in 3.5 seconds.
PS:Thats not a burst , thats sustainable dps.You can keep it running indefinitely.
PS2:Damage can be even bigger whit trickery trait 5% damage from the back (which I had and didn’t use) and more stacks of might .Ohh and Food.

Even Range Thief does better damage than Warrior melee.
Hows that for proof.

Lorana.2468:

NightyNight.1823:

Lorana.2468:

Guardian/Warrior are the only proffesion u need for dungeons atm.

none of the fights are complex enough to warrent using any other proffesion over these 2.

you will never beat a warriors dmg or a guardians supportive power, other proffesions are useless because nothing in this game requires the niche things they bring, all you need is Protection and Damage right now.

the answer would be more complex boss fights.

This kind of mentality needs to stop.I’m tired of people discriminating against other classes.
How are you so sure of what you’re saying Lorana?Do you play all the classes?No you don’t , if you did you would’ve known that Thief has practicaly double the DPS than a Warrior.A lot of other classes have comparable DPS if not even better than Warrior.
And whats with this obsession over support , you don’t need such a thing.This is GUILD WARS 2 , You don’t need to depend on other classes to survive.Self Heal is more than sufficient.
Guardian is probaly the last class I would take whit me in dungeons due to the lack of DPS.

your full of it
i know what im talking about because i have level 80 Guardian/Warrior/Mesmer & Engineer

my Mesmer/Engineer do nothing but mine Rich Ori once a day in Southsun, because the proffesion on a whole is useless right now in pve, why would i ever not use my Warrior/Guardian.

my mentality is one of being the most useful to my group, i do that by using the 2 best PvE proffesions in the game, i dont string my group along by wearing MF gear, and i wont be doing it by using a worse proffesion either.

backup your claim of thief dealing great damage, prove me wrong.

I do up to 27k crits on my Warrior myself , just because you do big numbers doesn’t necesarely means you do better damage , only proves your ignorance.You want proof that thief does better damage than Warrior? You got it!

To underline what I’ve already said , this is a screen shot of some numbers I pull whit my Thief in Arah.
Thats a total 62.522 .
To give you an idea of how fast that happened.
2x double strike = 0.25s
Wild Strike=0.25s
Lotus strike=0.25s
Cloak and Dagger =0.5s
Backstab=0.25s
Heartseeker=0.75s
Thats a total of 3.50 ? I wont do the maths again ,its tedius >.<
Now 3.50 is exacly the time it takes for a Warriors 100 blades to kick off.Come to me whit a hundred blades that hits 62.522.Or AXE Warrior whit damage that equals 62.522 in 3.5 seconds.
PS:Thats not a burst , thats sustainable dps.You can keep it running indefinitely.
PS2:Damage can be even bigger whit trickery trait 5% damage from the back (which I had and didn’t use) and more stacks of might .Ohh and Food.

People don’t necesarely want to play an OP class .Some just want to play a class that they enjoy playing.I personaly don’t think theres an OP class , just overrated .

painHV.3968:

No, my point is they’re more useful to party with at higher level fractals. And no, they don’t get 1 shot until the fractal scale 50 tier.

Edit: Thieves at high level fractals won’t be doing any melee, trust me on that and ask ones in the 40 or 50 tier scale yourself.

No your point is exacly just that, don’t turn it around now.You don’t even have an argument to why Warrior is ‘’infinitely more useful’’ than thief.And funny how people tend exagerate when doing so in the lack of an argument.
Theres nothing a Glass Cannon Thief can’t melee and Glass Cannon Warrior can.In fact ,its quite much easier whit thief .

This is such a silly comparison. A warrior infinitely times more useful than a thief in fractals 40+. Even 30+. Warriors can melee and not get 1 shot even at the highest difficulties with proper dodging and still be traited to do incredible DPS. I know there are exceptions to some immensely skilled thieves at those difficulties, but the average thief dies and needs to be rez’d every 2 min.

So your argument for Warrior being ‘’infinitely more useful’’ is that its just easier to play .
Everyone gets 1 shot in higher difficulty fractals and in fact its way easier to melee whit thief because you never get the agro whit stealth.

The only problems whit Lupicus is the instant reset and the bugs when you get hit even outside the circles.Other than that its a fun boss.

Thieves brings some nice things to a group, the problem is that every other class brings much more. And the latest changes does certainly not address this problem.
I would definitely switch to another class if I could (can’t be bothered to level another class to 80), because Thief is a PvP class, with only a few uses in PvE.

Ye only a ‘’few uses’’ like the best DPS of them all.Like ..Only everything that matters.

KingClash.3186:

The only way a Thief does 2x damage than a Warrior is if they are full glass cannon.
In which case you would just be 1 shotted at fractals 15+ while the Warrior is still alive doing damage.

And Warrior glass cannon not?In fact Warrior is so much more opened to atacks than a Thief so you’ll never see a Warrior outlast a Thief in survivability.As for fractals , on higher difficulty fractals you get 1 shot no matter what build you’re playing so glass cannon or full bunker is no difference.Its all about damage in this game.

Lorana.2468:

Guardian/Warrior are the only proffesion u need for dungeons atm.

none of the fights are complex enough to warrent using any other proffesion over these 2.

you will never beat a warriors dmg or a guardians supportive power, other proffesions are useless because nothing in this game requires the niche things they bring, all you need is Protection and Damage right now.

the answer would be more complex boss fights.

This kind of mentality needs to stop.I’m tired of people discriminating against other classes.
How are you so sure of what you’re saying Lorana?Do you play all the classes?No you don’t , if you did you would’ve known that Thief has practicaly double the DPS than a Warrior.A lot of other classes have comparable DPS if not even better than Warrior.
And whats with this obsession over support , you don’t need such a thing.This is GUILD WARS 2 , You don’t need to depend on other classes to survive.Self Heal is more than sufficient.
Guardian is probaly the last class I would take whit me in dungeons due to the lack of DPS.

BS , C&D are instant activation , it doesn’t take longer than the timer says.It doesn’t take time to use.And HS if you’re next to him it also doesn’t take longer than 0.75. So yes thats pretty much accurate. DD and PW are different abilities.

NightyNight.1823:

Best way to go in dungeons is full glass cannon.Once you’ve learned all the mechanics ,Support and Survivability are a none issue.So , the best class to go in dungeons whit is the one that packs the most damage.

Just go warrior or guardian and get it over with.
Other classes are fun to play, but they don’t come close to warrior/guardian dps and versatility

Now its funny you say that because I play both a Warrior and a Thief and the funny part is that Thief DPS is FAR supperior to Warrior.Anyone who plays Warrior and Thief and plays them well will tell you the same thing.And I can always prove what I just said if you don’t take my word for it.

My advice, play whit what ever class you want to play , you wont be dissapointed.I didn’t play all the classes in dungeons yet but I experimented whit them a lot in Heart of the mists, and I can tell, they are all realy good.

To underline what I’ve already said , this is a screen shot of some numbers I pull whit my Thief in Arah.
Thats a total 62.522 .
To give you an idea of how fast that happened.
2x double strike = 0.25s
Wild Strike=0.25s
Lotus strike=0.25s
Cloak and Dagger =0.5s
Backstab=0.25s
Heartseeker=0.75s
Thats a total of 3.50 ? I wont do the maths again ,its tedius >.<
Now 3.50 is exacly the time it takes for a Warriors 100 blades to kick off.Come to me whit a hundred blades that hits 62.522.Or AXE Warrior whit damage that equals 62.522 in 3.5 seconds.
PS:Thats not a burst , thats sustainable dps.You can keep it running indefinitely.
PS2:Damage can be even bigger whit trickery trait 5% damage from the back (which I had and didn’t use) and more stacks of might .Ohh and Food.

Best way to go in dungeons is full glass cannon.Once you’ve learned all the mechanics ,Support and Survivability are a none issue.So , the best class to go in dungeons whit is the one that packs the most damage.

Just go warrior or guardian and get it over with.
Other classes are fun to play, but they don’t come close to warrior/guardian dps and versatility

Now its funny you say that because I play both a Warrior and a Thief and the funny part is that Thief DPS is FAR supperior to Warrior.Anyone who plays Warrior and Thief and plays them well will tell you the same thing.And I can always prove what I just said if you don’t take my word for it.

My advice, play whit what ever class you want to play , you wont be dissapointed.I didn’t play all the classes in dungeons yet but I experimented whit them a lot in Heart of the mists, and I can tell, they are all realy good.

Oh common ,8 people ? What were you doing ,sitting pretty?He can’t stay in stealth forever .When he shows up , imobilise , stun , nuke.Shouldn’t be a problem for 8 people LOL.But I bet you’re just exagerating or lying.Lame..

who cares , it wont happen.

this video makes the class look super OP and no class should be auto attacking for 3k hits

Only warriors?

‘’Before I could even see him.’‘Now this is the key sentence.Unless the game can’t load your graphics in time its impossible not to see him.He only goes stealth when he’s there to touch you.So there , problem solved.Don’t say you don’t see him.Its like saying , I closed my eyes and did not see him.Of course you can see him.

@typingofthedead its called getting owned.You’ll have to accept that some people are just better than you because I play berserker elementalist too and I don’t have those problems that you’re talking about.
@XII wrong.Elementalist have way better mobility than thief.No class lacks mobility at all.Permanent swiftness and mobility skills aswell.Name 1 proffesion that doesn’t have those.What thief has instead?A skill that can teleport you 2 times 1800 range then your initiative is no more .I wouldn’t call that the best mobility , its rather loughable.Ye it might be good for short distances but ye lets take that away , and stealth too..its not like its their only defence.
Instead of calling for nerfs for something you don’t even understand you should try and learn about it.If you don’t listen then you don’t deserve to be listened.

What next combo ,can’t do another combo for another 45 seconds, once he’s done his combo and missed he has no other choice but to run .And a necro whit 3 health bars can’t come here and complain that they get killed in 1 combo , Its impossible.

typingofthedead.5614:

Daecollo: that IS the problem. the mere presence of a thief more or less forces the opposition to have to stack toughness/defense to have a shot. any build that requires active defense becomes kitten, since u can’t see the thief coming, and then he can burst u down before u have a chance to pop a single skill. even if that skill is the perfect one for the situation (stun break, invuln), whats the point if u do not have enough time to hit it between realizing the thief is on you and going down.

this is both frustrating, and makes it hard/impossible to run an offensive build on another class since the thief trumps it. so i have to run a less fun and less group optimal tanky build to deal with the thief.

so any offensive build i run is hard countered by thief, which takes me out of the game. or i can run a defensive build that takes the thief out of the game. there’s no middle ground it seems, and each build type is ruining the others fun

There is no other class that you don’t need active defences against such as stun breakers and invulnerability , there is no class that can’t put you down just as fast as the thief.This is not WoW or other MMO , here you don’t defend yourself by stacking toughness .Learn how to counter it.L2p
There is plenty of time to react , and people like you needs to stop saying that they don’t see the thief comming.None sense.Look around , he surely isn’t invisible.Don’t and die.Its the same for any other class.

Well its understandible if you had no resistance and you were constantly dying.The rings drop is not that bad , you were just unlucky.This is not a major issue of this dungeon.

Its not random.He resets instantly and his range is lower than yours so if your atack doesn’t hit in time he resets and ye thats a problem.

They didn’t added closer way points to prevent zerging your way through the dungeons whitout learning how the game is actualy played.All dungeons should be the same.
Lupicus is cheese once you get a little bit more experienced whit it.This is how I do it on my thief.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKCQi0K5iv4&feature=share&list=UUhtU-aPK2a7Il83vtk_mbpA
Movement and invulnerability skills and traits is the way to go.

Hows combat logs evidence for anything?

If you go Condition whit short bow , it will be impossible to kill bunkers because short bow damage base its not that big in the first place .Its survivability which makes it so strong .Now damage is a good idea.Since you’re going to evade most of the damage you don’t need to worry about defence so much ,just effective ways to regain initiative.Signet use is pretty sweet.And if thats not enough for you , you can go hybrid and go into Trickery tree and improve both your condition damage and initiative gain.Ima post a bit later those 2 builds I’m thinking about .1 advice tho , I don’t sugest you use shortbow against classes that are better at range than you like Rangers.Keep a melee weapon around too.

I am talking about Glass Cannon BS Thief which is so easy to counter.Just like you said , if you miss CnD ,you’re in a lot more trouble compared to P/D .And P/D is not the only build for condition thief. You’d be surprised how well works whit D/D or whit Shortbow.
Its hard to keep on your opponent being so squishy , which is why BSérs needs to blow the cooldowns all in a burst , because they can’t outlast someone in a prelonged fight.Its practicaly imposible to stay on top of a skilled opponent.You have no stability , your only defence is stun break and stealth , which requires you to be right next to him.
Now I don’t know if you build a more tanky BS build , never tested , that because, BS doesn’t seem to me as a good strategy for long fights.I can’t see BS as a bully type build.

Any condition thief is stronger than BS burst any time of the day.BS burst is a bad build and its time more people realise this.You asked effectiveness.Whit condition thief you’re able to take even on multiple opponents at the same time and win.It might take longer of course but the results are better.As a BS thief you can only kill 1 at a time and only if he doesn’t know what he’s doing. If he countered your burst , you’re finished.Now BS is very succesful in WvW due to bad players but its realy not a good build.Now its all down to what you mean by effective.

Scrap that.Very Debateable but we’re talking about dungeons so its irrelevant.

A 30s CD (24s traited) remove stun skill is useless? That’s new to me.

Common man , lets be honest ,how many times stun breaks are that much of a demanded in PvE.Who would take such an useless utility in his slot.In PvP ye , its awesome , to keep on your opponent and stun breaks are critical but PvE? its 1 in 100 situations that this skill is needed.And if you wanna kill yourself you can always use steal.And there are far better ways to regain initiative.That was Infiltrator’s strike btw not Assassin’s signet.

Fact is, from all I tried the signets are the best Thief utility skills currently.

You must’ve tested a lot then ,Or you do not know the meaning of utility.

- Signet of Shadow

Another great skill for PvP , another useless skill for an utility slot in PvE.I think you all agree whit me , speed is not necesary .And the activation , a blind.Common I don’t even need to argument about it.Addictive? sure. Useful? no.

- Assassin’s Signet : the only weak signet for PvE. Very few fights need the burst it provides in the first place and the small DPS benefit isn’t worth much. I’d only use it in the rare fights that revolve around hitting static items where you cannot crit anyway.

Again another great skill for bursts in PvP another useless skill for PvE.What you need bursts for in PvE lol ,the health on mobs is too big to be useful. And the passive is so slim, its barely even noticeable.

Singet of agility

I’ll have to agree that this is a decent utility and the heal is great too.Now thats all that goes for signet use in PvE.Other than that you must be kidding me.Even traited , useless.

In terms of damage, the thief has the 2nd highest sustained melee DPS (after Warrior, just ahead of a damage specced Guardian) and the 2nd best ranged AoE damage (after Elementalist).

Actualy vs single targets ,whit D/D ,thief has better sustainable DPS than Warrior.About range aoe , I’m not sure but ,aren’t necro’s better?