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Having played a lot with condition builds on both my thief and my guardian, I can see why it’s unlikely that the Guardian options for conditions will be adjusted for two reasons.
1. Condition damage has a strong position in our arsenal as a secondary, concurrent damage path (unlike other professions where it’s a primary source of damage)
2. If it was adjusted to accommodate interests in applying it to more difficult boss-like encounters, it would be too OPed more simple ones.
While condition damage is not considered a serious substitute for crits on guardians, it does have it’s advantage of being a concurrent damage path independent of your primary weapon damage. It should stay that way. Therefore, I don’t think that Ret and Conditions should share any mechanics.
If we are talking about methods to improve condition damage application, I believe it would be quite interesting to find a way to give guardians a long range burn. The actual durations and damage we currently have with burning options is quite reasonable.
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Retaliation should be fixed. My thinking is that stacking in intensity is bad.
I would like to see it changed to reward good effort and defense. One way would be to make retaliation hit the opposing player when you dodge instead of being hit. It could also work to simply absorb X damage, allowing it to depend on toughness to increase the absorb.
Sorry I got lost in all the conditions you have and things you wanted to do with your build. I did notice your non-conventional choices for traits which leaves me with little to suggest. I’m simply not familiar enough on how such a build would play out. Typically, it seems the consensus is that 30 in Zeal is lackluster so there isn’t a lot of information or collective experience about builds that use it.
I’ve focused much effort into my Guardian PvE experience (farming and events mostly). I have arrived at what I believe is a good balance between offense and defense in PVE. It’s a hammer-focused build with all berserker’s armor (ranger runes) and ruby gems running 0/15/30/20/5. Whatever defensive stats I lack from gear, I make up for symbol of protection, the traits and lots of heal access from Monk’s Focus and meditations. It works well for jumping into events with the zerg (allows you to tag many mobs for loot rights)
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Typically, Damage reduction is better as long as it doesn’t diminish to the point where it prevents damage less than an equivalent value of vitality. To figure that out, you need to do a little math and understand your own comfort level for what a ‘big hit’ is.
Even though toughness has diminished returns, the effective HP of a Guardian is pretty big because of access to heals and passive regen from various sources.
No one cares <- Honest truth
I’m intrigued with a build using this armor set, but not intrigued enough to buy one and try it :p
If you are after a very balanced build for most your stats, I can see it factoring heaviliy in a build like that.
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My balancing wishlist:
Bad players lose forum posting privilege.
… if anyone has real complains on Guardians they must have never played any other Profession before…
What would make you say that? I would be more inclined to say that anyone completely satisfied with the profession haven’t played it enough. Maybe you assume everyone that complains is a complete noob but that wouldn’t be a very good assumption. In fact, the BEST criticism and complaining are going to come from the people with the very deep understanding and experience with a profession in the game.
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I can see why there is some disappointment by people that play Guardians. I don’t feel it’s because they think the class is weak. MY personal feeling on what is wrong with Guardians:
1. Weak implementation of the concept. We have an idea of what the devs want for Guardians to be. Problem is that Guardian doesn’t PLAY that way.
2. Variation in builds. There seems one strong theme and then alot of variations on it. Sure, there are others you can play but it seems very forced to do so. It’s a general consensus that deep Zeal is pretty crap.
3. Balance to other professions. It’s inevitable that Guardian skills will be compared to other similar professions. Overall, the skills feel a step behind what our cousins have.
At PvE and WvWvW AOE is mainstream of all tactics and fights. Sword doesn`t have aoe ability also burst"3" can`t use while moving….
The fact that sword doesn’t have amazing AoE doesn’t make sword a weak weapon.
Sword has great damage and perfectly reasonable utility when paired with 1 of any of the 3 offhands; even moreso when you swap to a 2nd offhand. Sword is clearly not as strong by itself when compared to 2H weapons and that’s likely consciously done to ensure a good balance for various weapon combination implementations
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That’s a more reasonable statement and I think that’s just more indicative of 1H weapons being most beneficial when you have Rad 30. That’s a trait design issue, not a weapon one. Even if sword had more ‘things’, there would still be low trait synergy.
Sure, but we know WW also misses. Is 3 sure burning targets better than 5 maybe hit ones? Depends how often you are fighting 5 mobs vs. 3. In my experience, not often. Are the other advantages of one weapon make it better than the other? No, it’s completely dependent on your build and what you are doing. The whole thread is nonsense.
I don’t think the point is to argue about AoE attacks. The point was simply that the OP disregarded a significant factors in his assessment on how bad swords are for Guardian.
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It occurs to me at this point that people that start “X sucks” threads aren’t even playing the game. What other conclusion can one draw from such a thread as this?
If you believe sword is a terrible weapon, you simply have no idea how to make a build on your guardian.
Toughness is definitely my goal, especially since I lag behind so much and I think it’s a better entry level approach for WvW. I could just do a soldier’s everything but then I don’t want people ignoring my attacks on them either. Hence the topic of the thread.
That’s great stuff. I was not aware that GW rounded the nearest decimal point wasting the remainders.
I’m interested in understanding some fundamental rules people use when thinking of WvW builds.
For instance, do you target a specific amount of crit? If you do why? Do you prefer to get your gear from a specific gear slot?
I’m looking into spending limiting my spending on a dedicated WvW build. Instead of experimenting and wasting gold on bad gear choices, I want to see if anyone would give me some tips that would give me a good start.
I’m more interested in knowing the quantities of mats you get from T5 bags. Am I wrong in assuming it’s a waste to salvage exotics over rares for ectos?
It’s not invalid at all. Design considerations for warriors have nothing to do with those for Guardians. In fact, I think it’s a fallacy when people use other professions toolsets to justify improvements for another profession. The design considerations for Guardians are based on the concept of the profession, not some player-created mantra of what they think it should be.
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I think my only issue with the agenda being presented here is that it’s claiming the hammer is ‘slow and awful’ so it needs a fix. That’s simply not recognizing the balance between what’s good and bad about the hammer. Being slow does not mean broken. Awful is simply subjective.
no more comments on this? the community got this few sword users or what??? cuz the skill have been broken since the beginning.
Maybe not many comments because some people don’t think it’s actually broken. Not all weapons need to be all things to all players. If it’s not good in WvW but it’s great for sPvP and PVE, I don’t see a problem with that.
^^ You have the ability to move also and that 3rd attack has a decent range.
I think the discussion hammer vs. GS simply miss alot of the good points of each. They have their unique uses. GS doesn’t give me 100% protection. That IS a valuable effect. Hammer doesn’t give me tremendous gap closing. Those tiny examples are a drop in the bucket. If you don’t look at the weapon as a whole with the gear and traits you use, you just aren’t using all the information to play your profession.
The people that REALLY know how to play their guardians recognize all weapons for their strengths and know how and when to use them.
The only fix that hammer needs is for 3 and 5 to work more effectively in PVP. If you hate it because it’s slow, low damage, or not sexy enough with SoP, there are 11 other weapon combos for you to play without claiming hammer is ‘awful’ or ‘crap’ to push an agenda.
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It will be highly unlikely they add weapons to any profession in the short term. It would require a lot of work in the weapon skills as well as the traits and perhaps the existing weapons as well to ensure a new weapon wouldn’t outclass an existing one.
If long range capability is strengthened, I would propose it may be done by simply increasing the damage of Scepter 1 or range of staff 1. I view this as a balanced solution.
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If the OP has a point, it’s lost in the rant so gratz on sinking your own thread before it’s even out of the dock.
I personally don’t feel that just because ‘nothing positive’ has been changed for Guardians, that this is necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes not getting the attention in an MMO is a blessing in disguise, otherwise you get things like nerfed retaliation, Honor 5 and spirit weapons (see where I’m going?).
Now, I’m not saying guardians couldn’t use improvements but if you think those improvements are going to be the result of negative rant threads like this one, you’re sorely mistaken.
Bottom line: What you think is positive change is likely not in the direction that the devs are going to take any profession so poking them with pointy sticks isn’t likely going to get the changes you want.
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Torch #4 is better than the GS AOE: it doesn’t miss and it’s not limited to a certain number of hits.
I literally laughed.
That’s all nice on paper. There are lots of advantages to using torch and if built right, a sword/torch build is comparable in damage to GS, no problem and can exceed it in certain situations, many of them being the PVE ones that the OP is wanting to limit the discussion to. That’s part of the problem with the OP’s argument. The weapons aren’t comparable in isolation because when someone wields a weapon, it has a build supporting it.
The only conceivable change I would like to see for sword is that it gets some sort of secondary effect support. Examples would be getting an offensive symbol or a boon of some kind.
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It’s an easy conclusion to favour GS over sword if your so willing to dismiss the offhand effectiveness. Torch #4 is better than the GS AOE and that extra sigil is also more value that you realize as well. I really question if the GS damage is better too: if it is, it’s not by much and certainly nothing noticeable for PVE stuff.
It seems like an empty argument to me. At best you show it’s slightly ahead and that’s questionable IMO. Even if that’s true, it’s not really cause for improving sword.
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That’s just a matter of opinion I suppose. I don’t use Valour 30 for everything I do because I don’t need it and the builds are just as effective if not more. In fact, I find it more challenging and appealing to not use it and attempt to move away from it whenever possible. My alternatives to AH are focusing on the inherent damage mitigation you get as a guardian. I think that approach gives me a broader insight to the profession.
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This is worth a sticky as ‘state of the union’ address for Guardians. I do disagree with some of what’s being said here, primarily about your experience compared to other classes. I’m sad to see you advocate that it’s good that the other classes you have experience with are successful because of their strong weapon implementation, relying less on their utility slots and skills.
I personally think that the great part of being a Guardian is the fact that you can move away from reliance on specific weapons to get more variation by focused reliance on the utility slots and skills. Simply a difference in perspective I guess.
The damage boosts are all pretty lame. I would personally like to see them removed for something way more thoughful and interesting. Add damage traits are lazy and boring.
So if someone is doing good with something then it means it needs a nerf?
You missed my point, which was admittedly subtle so I will let you slide. Obvious there is a reason this is getting nerfed. It’s not simply a random occurrence or as completely unreasonable as people intend to make it sound. Personally, I don’t think people are being as honest with their SW assessments in these threads as they should be. Their is no requirement that players know, understand and agree with changes before they can happen. If you are a veteran of MMO’s, you already know this to be a fact.
I’m not against people voicing their anger to things, but it goes beyond reasonable to claim that we know better than the devs on what and how things should be changed, including the insults directed to them that usually go with those claims. That’s simply going to get you no where except moderated.
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Lets be honest here. The only spirit weapon that was ever worth using, even fully traited, was the shield.
Now it seems even the shield is completely useless. Have fun in your high level fractals people.
You kidding. Had a guild SPVP nite. Was absolutely pwning people with my SW build. The hammer was awesome.
Gee, and we all sit around wondering why SW’s were nerfed ><
What plans? Anet does not communicate anything. when was the last Dev post on our forum? I am left to believe there are no plans.
So your conclusion is that since you don’t see plans, they don’t exist? Well, I can’t argue against that with a logical approach since it appears you didn’t use logic to get yourself into that position to begin with.
Bottom line: I don’t think they roll dice and decide they are nerfing some random thing. There is a reason, even if you don’t know, understand or agree with what it is.
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I basically want to play a mobile profession like everyone else. Not much to ask really.
It’s not really genuine to say we aren’t mobile. I can warp around, close gaps, break stuns and conditions quite well with any number of builds actually. This kind of thinking is just another case of not recognizing the class for what it is and how its strengths and weaknesses translate into the kinds of roles it’s suited for for different aspects of the game. If those don’t translate into roles you like, you should simply reconsider the class you feel comfortable playing instead of claiming there is something wrong with this one.
Like I said, you don’t see the sense in it because you don’t know the plans for the class. It doesn’t need to make sense to a player that has no insight to how the game will evolve. Maybe if we had a roadmap, we could make some more intelligent discussion about the change but we don’t. Somethings need to be broken down before you can make them into something better. That’s not irrelevant where testing and code are concerned.
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I really believe Anet should consider revamping this profession a bit. Make it more mobile along with the others, Higher boon upkeep, cripples, stuns. All skills that other professions have access to that Guardians don’t.
So basically, you just want to play those other professions …
Sorry, I disagree. The last thing I want is to feel like I’m playing another profession with all the things they have but with a different name. I play Guardian because I like the different challenges it gives me and the tools it brings for all the different aspects of play. I don’t feel it should be dumbed down in any way to remove its deficiencies. The strengths and weaknesses are what defines the class.
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Because it shows the complete ignorance of whoever decided that this would be a good change. If our worst utilities get nerfed, what else is on the horizon?
I think we can’t dismiss player ignorance as well … unless you are a Dev, you don’t know the motivation for the change and it might be completely inline with a future plan for the class. I certainly don’t think it’s been changed because devs are ignorant. I’m going to assume that most GW2 players have some past MMO experience will agree that lots changes are not transparent or well understood by players. It’s the nature of these things.
If it was changed because of something thats going to happen in the future, then it shouldn’t have been changed until said “future”.
Making a set of utilities useless for any period of time because they have something planned for them later is bad.
Whether it’s bad the change happened now or later is a matter of opinion really. If it’s related to some future plan, it could be necessary to implement the nerf now in case it needs to be well tested so the possibly better thing gets implemented without issue. I’m just playing Devil’s advocate here because I think the change appears misplaced, but I certainly don’t think it was done to screw people or give the impression they don’t have a clue to balancing the classes. People have a tendency to forget that whether they disagree with a change more often than not is really not cause for it to be a bad change … the devs decide the direction of the classes and these things dictate the changes.
Frankly, I think this is much ado about nothing. SW’s sucked. Now they suck more. I don’t see a place for something that sucked to begin with.
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Sword is actually really good so I don’t really get the suggestions or complaints here. Depending on what you are doing, even better than GS in some cases. I certainly think that with the right build, nothing beats the damage output of Sword. Just the fact you can offhand another sigil makes it super powerful. If you know what you are doing, that capability more than outweighs any lack of apparent damage or tricks it can do vs. any 2H weapon.
Also worth considering is that you can swap from a strong offensive offhand (torch) to a strong defensive offhand (focus) without any compromise to how your gear impacts your offensive capability in your main hand or the capabilities of your offhand. Conversely, swapping 2 handed weapons to swing between more offense and defense will always prompt me to swap a few items and some traits to maintain my optimal gameplay (If I able of course).
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Because it shows the complete ignorance of whoever decided that this would be a good change. If our worst utilities get nerfed, what else is on the horizon?
I think we can’t dismiss player ignorance as well … unless you are a Dev, you don’t know the motivation for the change and it might be completely inline with a future plan for the class. I certainly don’t think it’s been changed because devs are ignorant. I’m going to assume that most GW2 players have some past MMO experience will agree that lots changes are not transparent or well understood by players. It’s the nature of these things.
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What I’m hoping (always trying to be the optimist here) is that the nerf to Spirit Weapons now is in anticipation for something in the future that will make them a more effective option or a change that is necessary to ensure a future planned change doesn’t make them OPed. This happens alot more in MMO’s than people realize because it tends to be over the long term.
Right now, I can’t think of any reason anyone would focus on a spirit weapon, let alone a build that focuses on them. They are one trick ponies and if optimism has a place here, this would be the first step to move awa from those isolated instances of utility to more prominence. Question is how long it will take to take the next few steps to give them a place in Guardian builds.
On the other changes … I like the battle Presence fix for Absolute Resolution. That’s a very strong passive heal when skilled to healing power. Someone with more daring and gold needs to check that out to see how it works.
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The build variations are tremendous and the value in team is high. The versatility is good, though some drawbacks of the profession hold some people back in WvW.
No, but to be fair, I don’t think it’s a pressing matter. I certainly don’t underperform as a Guardian because my elites aren’t spectacular. RF is a sufficient placeholder until the time comes to review these.
Depends on what content you are doing.
If you just farming orr, I would suggest one sigil be a ‘stacking stat’ one, like Bloodlust. Those aren’t as good for dungeons and WvW though.
I will comment because I do a lot of solo farming around Orr and have maximized a burning build for it as well, so your desire to have an effective build is similar to my game voyage.
1. Orr farming doesn’t actually require alot of defense (your heal, VoR and some other skill is usually enough). That means you can get away with using any weapon you want, typically something with a higher damage output like GS or Sword. I like to go with hammer because it does allow you to take on 3-4 mobs without healing because of protection (I’m lazy like that when farming). If you are going to push builds where you actively use VoJ and get the most from that burning, you need a 10/15/X/X/X and you have it. I would suggest the following changes (these aren’t dungeon-friendly suggestions keep in mind)
- If you are going to push Radiance to 25, I would go all the way to 30 for more 1H crit (dumping the Zeal 20 to do it)
- I would drop GS for sword and make Honour 20 into Empowering might
- I would change Radiance 20 to X for more sword damage
- I wouldn’t use mace but swap between focus and torch instead (torch #4 is great for burning builds and focus 5 is amazing when being swarmed by mobs in farming mode)
2. Not sure I get the second build or what it’s for. It’s obviously symbol heavy for healing people but I don’t find that’s effective for farming so you must intend on using it for dungeons? Assuming its primarily for tanking dungeons, it’s still weird to me.
- I find it really hard to not go at least into 5 for Valour. Aegis at 50% health is awesome.
- I find more retaliation time from Virtue 10 a waste and not inline with the theme of your build. I would consider 20% longer consecrations and swapping a signet for a consecration.
- I would be interested in seeing what gear you plan to use with this. Are you going for a balance of all stats?
3. Sword is great because it gives you a teleport (not a leap) with a blind on a fast cool down, has good damage and fast recharge on #1 (nice to couple with crits and sigils that proc on crit) with a decent damage and many chances to hit, bursty attack on #3. I’m sad that you can’t get a symbol or a boon with it.
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I already buy new tools for each zone I’m in, which is why I end up with 12 or so tools cluttering my bag.
Frankly, you’re just being cheap. You can harvest everything you want with Orichalcum tools but the drawback is that it’s costly. You actually have a made a choice of saving some gold vs. convenience. If that choice bothers you, them you should rethink what your values are and buy the tools accordingly. You decide what your balance is. It’s actually something I like about the current system. I swap between mithril and ori tools all the time. It’s not that much extra work because their isn’t that much stuff that needs ori tools to farm.
I think how hard Legendary weapons are to get is not even a relevant point of discussion. They exist simply to make you play and collect alot of items. There is no case to justify making them easier to get. Their whole purpose is to make you waste your time in the game.
My only issue is that getting a Legendary is simply a matter of getting money and buying it, which is rather stupid.
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I was unaware of the diminishing returns on armor stat. Is that well documented somewhere so we can review it? I would like to see where those percentages are derived.
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if you add more effect to the simbols, and then you make them mobile, they will become extremely OP.
Yes, OK. I see that but I don’t see anyone suggesting more be added to symbols. The thread is simply an alternative implementation for them and frankly, it’s an interesting one to talk about IMO.
With the Aura you have only to be near you enemy(its worse then retaliation), and if you add a slowing effect or more damage, it will just become TOO OP. Damage, debuff or buff, only staying near the guardian.
Sure. Again, I don’t see anyone suggesting anything specific. Cripple or more damage may indeed be too OP. That’s easily addressed when considering the design of the feature.
Actual simbols need to be:
1)larger, because when not traited simbols are really too small.
2) they need a constriction aspect, the only simbols that dont need to be touched is the hammer simbol, but the others, need some kind of love.
I can appreciate this is your opinion on how to improve symbols and I don’t feel it’s too far off what would make symbols a more significant factor in playing a Guardian. What’s simply being suggested in this thread is an alternative approach to how symbols are implemented for Guardians.
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I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe, like a sheep dog controls sheep. A sheep dog doesn’t stand still to herd; mobile symbols would be more effective in controlling than what we presently have now.
This is something neither Symbols nor mobile Symbols would do. Symbols are just useless as a mechanic for field control.
Yeah, right now they are. If you simply made the current symbols mobile, they would be weak for field control. I can’t see anyone following a mace Guardian to get regen or protection from hammer. You also don’t see anyone running from symbol of wrath either. I’m going beyond simply advocating the current symbols be mobilized. I’m suggesting that mobile symbols could be a good anti-zerg mechanic for PVP.
If you took a step back and said “Hey, let’s make symbols that are mobile to enhance field control”, you could imagine a form they could take to be effective in that role.
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It most definitely could have a tactics aspect depending on how it’s designed and implemented.
I don’t think the discussion is far enough ahead to exclude the idea because it would be OPed under specific circumstances. There are obviously limitations that could be imposed on it if such a thing did get to a design phase. As an idea, mobile symbols are reasonable enough to consider, would fit into the Guardian concept and could improve certain aspects of its gameplay.
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I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe, like a sheep dog controls sheep. A sheep dog doesn’t stand still to herd; mobile symbols would be more effective in controlling than what we presently have now.
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