Guild Wars 2

It may be nice for elementalists, too. You can run a three-signet build, put 30 in earth for Strength of Stone and be one sturdy little git.

I can’t see dropping any of the premiere runesets on a thief for those, though. Whether it’s Scholar’s, Traveler’s, Centaur, Scavenging, Afflicted, Perplexity, Lyssa.. It’s hard to think of a build where farming those new runes would be a real improvement.

DE’s are the best content in the game — it’s the closest thing GW2 has to a unique strength. If you enjoy playing them, you’ll end up with plenty of karma.

It’s not lightning fast, but it’s fun in its own right. I hope they increase the rewards a bit, so more people will engage in them. It’s not good for the future of a game when good gameplay and good rewards are too widely separated, as people end up pressured to do stuff that bores them. Then, they finish their goal and switch games.

roughryder.6071:

any thoughts on this?

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAoYVlUmiP3eS6E+5Ex2jd2Tiy9woJtpdFiKA-jUDB4fAYLLaksYIaUBgJPQpPEZslhFRjVXDT5SIS7CWFD1gjRr2mDQIABbBA-w

I came across this build in one of Yishis videos on you tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Lh8Oogl6Y

That’s a standard, and very good D/D build for WvW. The only quibble — actually, let’s call it a question, as I’m not up to challenging Yishi on how to teef — is the choice of traits in Acrobatics. Falling damage does happen, and reducing it gives you more mobility, but it’s a bit of a niche skill.

I leveled as D/D and S/D (always with a SB in the alternate slot). S/P is better for just about everything but Dredge, but the more aggressive setups are more fun. They’re certainly viable.

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

must be something else, because my shortbow doesn’t take more than 3 seconds to shoot another arrow, but i can only hit him once before he disappears again, how do they bypass the “revealed-3 second”s in wvw?

Thieves only get the ‘revealed’ debuff if they hit someone. If they don’t take a swing (or a stab) at anyone, then there is no debuff.

That may seem unfair, but remember that it only works if the thief isn’t doing any direct damage.

Narcarsis.5739:

If you find yourself to be a decent player P/D with full berserker is a pretty strong set and fun to play. Also means you don’t have to find new gear. I hit people for about 6-7k on Shadow Strike 2.

Pew pew (Use a super pistol for max fun).

Again though, it’s pretty unforgiving depending on the traits you run.

But.. Pistol/* is mostly condition damage. Zerk gear has none. That really works?

Travlane.5948:

i compared what is TAKEN with what is GIVEN to us by anet. jon peters said it was a buff and that other skills/traits were a “small change” so i wanted to point out quite the contrary.

I think your comparison doesn’t stand up to how most specs actually play. We’re not fighting a stationary target dummy, stealthing and hitting regen signets every single cooldown. The objective of thief play is to not to maximize initiative regeneration, but to kill things and take their stuff. The initiative is a tool, not the actual goal.

When I look at the specs I run (usually D/D, sometimes S/D and occasionally P/D condition build), every one of these will have slightly more initiative after 12/10 than now. Only D/P permastealth builds really take an initiative hit. Well, P/P gets nerfed too, but that’s just beating a dead horse at this point.

Excalibur.9748:

it’s easy to kite D/D thief….

on my S/D thief i kite D/D thief all day on shortbow lmao. when you get stoned stunbreak and dodge roll you should be able to dodge their whole burst. yes it was op when basilisk venom applied this hidden CC that you can’t stun break out of, but that’s no longer the case. i basically have to be no paying attention if their whole burst hits me (and doesn’t 1 shot me either)

A S/D and SB spec can kite anything You’ve got spammable gap openers and closers, and one of them comes with a cripple.

The advantage is being able to reset the fight when we need to. The other guy may not need the ooc time to recover health or space to let his utilities come off cooldown. You’re right in that both parties benefit, but we’ll likely benefit more.

In the universe of abilities that make a class powerful, this is nonetheless not a top-tier ability. I think many folks, sitting in their AoE-Zerg Support (or PvE) builds are just shocked that a thief picked them out of the crowd, and feel that being sneaked up on is unfair. It’s the same kittened-up argument in every MMO with stealth.

Terrahero.9358:

Cant kill what you cant hit, and you cant hit what keeps disapearing into stealth and zips all over the place with teleports and evades..

The constant teleports are awesome, and they make a thief very hard to hit if played well. Those are sword abilities (it’s the sword 2 ability, which is also getting nerfed on 12/10). The evades? What’s that? The only ‘evade’ built into backstabbing thief builds is Death Blossom, a condition damage AoE that power/ crit builds don’t use.

Yeah, thieves can dodge roll. So can every class. Thief access to vigor is pretty good right now, but is also getting nerfed on 12/10.

Hype.8032:

Are you 10/30/30/0/0 or 0/30/30/10/0? I still think one of those is best for d/d in wvw.

I really like Thrill of the Crime (in a 0/30/30/0/10 build). Starting most fights with Fury, Swiftness and a little bit of Might attached to your opener helps your burst. It even lets you consider Executioner over Hidden Killer.

I tell myself I can live without the Vigor from the acro traits by using Withdraw as an extra dodge

As for gear, knbBlackT should consider using Valkyrie armor (with zerk everything else). You get plenty of power and crit damage, trading precision for vitality. It’s pretty easy to jack your crit rate quite high without full zerk.

D/D is generally best as a power/ precision build. 0/30/30/0/0 is a good start for anything other than sPvP or high level fractals (which I know little about), with the final 10 points being useful anywhere you want to place them.

If you want to see what good looks like for a D/D thief, google up videos by Yishi or Mugi.

D/D is not the easiest spec to level in, however, as it is pretty squishy. Easy mode for killing stupid melee (e.g., almost all melee NPC’s) is S/P. The 5 skill (Black Powder) is an AoE blind. Refresh that when it runs out, and you’ll take little damage from anything nearby. It becomes so easy, it’s boring to kill things that way

Dee Jay.2460:

The only builds that would want Infusion of Shadows are Cloak and Dagger spamers. But I don’t see them being starved for Initative after the patch.

I can’t wait to test this. If I can drop Infusion of Shadows in my D/D build, that means I can load up Blind, Healing and Condition clear on each stealth. That sounds pretty great for WvW.

I play a stealth-based thief. I’m mediocre at it. The classes that I expect to lose almost any engagement are mesmers and d/d elementalists. Conversely, bearbow rangers are very easy to down, and I do pretty well against other thieves. Other classes, anything could happen.

I don’t know that is really reflects balance so much as it does my own knowledge (or lack) of other classes, along with the rock/paper/scissors aspects of specific builds.

It should probably have some stuns, too, right?

coglin.1867:

About half the time I kill them out right, but all of the ones that attack me then get away annoy me, because once they get stealth, there isn’t a lot I can do.

So, in 50% of your fights with thieves, you kill them. In the other 50%, they manage to escape. They never (or rarely) actually win.

That may be annoying, but it’s hard to make a case that the class winning 0% of its encounters with you is overpowered.

Awe.8049:

Could I run this to go around discovering the map? Would I get in trouble in the high level areas?

You can run it for anything. 30 Crit/ 30 SA/ 10 Anything is pretty flexible. You can switch up weapon sets and traits on the fly to have a spec appropriate for anything (with the possible exception of sPvP, which I don’t know much about).

Let’s assume he wants the stats. Can it work?

It’s not just coverage, though having an oceanic presence is important. It’s also organization. Speaking as a grunt on Yak’s Bend, I’ve been very impressed with the degree to which the half-dozen core guilds plan and coordinate activities, starting well before the first day of a reset.

That said, FA and SBI rolled over us to the same degree as we have others. Complete blowouts. It becomes self-reinforcing, as people from the losing server log in less. That’s a problem faced by most games with open-world PvP. I’m not aware that any game has solved it.

You can still have fun. An organized havoc group can still get things done, and even solo roamers can sneak around and take down yaks/ sentries.

If all you want is fair fights, sPvP offers them. Personally, I like open-world combat, with all its warts.

Burnfall.9573:

Did you see the failed results of block and stun on the thief in the videos?

Oh wait! i forgot…

You can not stun or block STEALTH.

Let me help you.

The thief in those videos, Yishi, is playing a classic D/D burst spec. He usually enters stealth with his #5 skill, Cloak and Dagger. This is a melee attack that can, in fact, be blocked, dodged, blinded, etc, just like any other melee strike. A failed CnD costs you about half your initiative pool.

I’m also not sure that you learn much about class balance by watching a really, really good player take out folks who are a little downslope of him on the skill curve. Every class has those videos.

Here’s how to beat any class: Play it a bit and learn how it works. Denying a thief their CnD isn’t nearly as hard as you think for most classes.

In zerg fights, there’s too much everything

Pick one of the following:

- Power/ Precision/ Crit Damage, or
- Condition Damage & survival stats (Vitality or Toughness)

Hybrid builds don’t work on thief. You’re either a power/ crit build or you’re a condition build. The vast majority of D/D thieves go power/ crit. D/D can go condition, but it’s weaker. You’re reduced to spamming one ability, and it’s not sufficiently powerful to be that boring. If you want to go with a condition build, I’d recommend taking a long look at pistol/ dagger.

For good examples of each, google up some videos by “I am Mugi” for D/D (power/ crit) or “Laela Blackbird” for P/D (condition). That will give you some good examples of what good looks like for the two styles.

A final note on cultural armor: It’s for cosmetics, not actual use. Though the lower level sets are actually pretty good when you get them, the T3 stuff is purely for the skin. Exotic armors are a fraction of the price and far better in every way.

Sanduskel.1850:

if they were so experienced why did they leave their thieves? many of us still enjoy the class. don’t really get it.

I think many folks have found that it’s a heck of a lot easier to succeed with a heavy class. The path of least resistance is usually the most popular route.

I play my thief instead of my warrior or guard because the thief is more fun. The other two are ‘better’ in the sense that I am more likely to win most engagements, but the thief playstyle is a hoot.

Add to that folks who are quitting thief because of the permastealth nerfs. I’m in the camp that is happy those specs will vanish. They were clearly cheesy and gave all thieves a bad name.

Julie Yann.5379:

Thieves aresenal is full of cheap shots and have zero respect for players choosing that playstyle and abusing those mechanics. Personally, I think…

I think you’re taking it too personally. People who play thieves aren’t bad people, and you should perhaps pause for the occasional deep breath.

As for the “you can’t see them coming,” this is going to change for the most part. Currently, there is a thief spec that can maintain stealth forever, and they can approach you from any distance without you noticing. That ends 12/10. The traits used to generate the massive amount of initiative needed for that are being well and truly nerfed. Other than the occasional long-cooldown utility, thief stealth will generally last exactly four seconds. In that time, they have to get to you, and behind you. It’s pretty easy to make that difficult.

You’re not guaranteed to be able to catch everyone you want to kill. Some skills are designed to help folks escape and reset fights. The fact that they work sometimes doesn’t mean the game is flawed, all the more so when you’re talking about an elite with a four minute cooldown.

Ele’s will still need at least 20 points in Arcana, right, regardless of build? And once you have 20 points in, who isn’t going to go the extra 10 for Evasive Arcana?

It appears to me that these changes will do very little to promote build diversity.

D/D still works! And, if you have a taste for condition builds (and there are a lot of reasons not to), P/D isn’t getting nerfed. In fact, those two specs are, on balance, buffed a bit.

I really wanted to like S/D. At least this change will release me from any temptation to build a Bolt, the only thiefly Legendary I like

I think even most thieves are glad to see perma-stealth being nerfed (and it is — the increase to base initiative gain is a drop in the bucket, compared to the losses this spec is eating). The thief spec that isn’t being nerfed is dagger offhand, D/D and P/D. Those rely on Cloak and Dagger to get into stealth. You can counter that most of the time.

As for Shadow Refuge, it’s like every other neat ability in the game — it’s useless against players who know how to counter it. Keep in mind that, for the thief to get that long lasting stealth, he has to sit there for quite a while (if he leaves before the little house graphic vanishes, he reappears). When you know the thief is standing in a small area, and he can neither move it nor attack you without revealing himself, most classes have a way to turn that right around (when I’m fighting another thief, I just switch to shortbow and poison/ clusterbomb the circle).

When roaming, you are likely to face other roamers — folks specced and geared specifically for that task. The learning curve can be steep. But it’s fun

D/D is a lot of fun. I have a few points of discussion:

- No vigor? I have a hard time not running 10 in Acrobatics to pick up Vigor on heal (combine with Withdraw and you have a lot of dodges), or going 20 into Trickery to pick up Vigor on Steal

- In SA, without picking up the Initiative on Stealth skill, are you able to maintain 10% damage buff from First Strikes (keeping initiative at 7+). This is a spot where the upcoming base init regen buff may really help

- I am a big fan of Furious Retaliation, especially in WvW. After the initial backstab, Fury is a pretty great way to finish them off

- Ever consider taking the 10 points in Deadly Arts and moving them to Trickery to pick up Fury/ Might/ Swiftness on steal? It makes your initial approach pretty deadly.

D/D is one of the few builds that is generally buffed by the upcoming patch. The biggest change in either direction for this build is probably the base initiative regen buff. I bet we see more people running it.

Gnat.9405:

I think what this type of content will need in the future is more of the dynamic event road blocks that they have throughout the tower. Where they are, they are very good at keeping players in one place long enough for others to catch up and participate.

That is an excellent point. Also, I wonder if the dynamic scaling needs to happen more often. Even when alone, or in a small group, I bump into champions and packs of elites. I wonder if this is caused by zergs elsewhere, or large groups of people who have already run past.

While I applaud ANet’s effort to pump out good content at this pace, I don’t like how it becomes ‘join the zerg or skip it.’ For those on smaller servers or who play odd hours, the zerg may not be available. For others, like myself, zerging is not fun. It’s certainly rewarding —like Champ Trains, it has a good ratio of loot/ time spent. But it’s crap gameplay. Running in a group of 30 just trying to tag stuff with AoE’s is not fun in itself.

What is the easiest thief spec to play to a level of basic competence? Which one would you recommend for folks who either aren’t that good at the game, or who focus on another class, but have a thief alt?

Which spec has the highest ceiling? Which one may be difficult to play, but becomes an absolute beast in the hands of a great player?

What do you think?

No thief builds are especially noob-friendly, as success requires a fair bit of situational awareness and skill. The class is more like elementalists and engineers than warriors or guardians. However, we have a lot of options to mix damage (burst or condi), mobility, various forms of damage avoidance (stealth, dodges, pseudo-dodges from abilities), etc.

There are a ton of possible combinations, but D/D is probably the best burst build, while P/D is likely the best one for conditions. Take a look at the following videos for examples of players who are really good at those two builds:

D/D, here’s Mugi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp-Uog_Eesk

P/D, Laela Blackbird: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hge-Sx9gxVY

Other good build possibilities include S/D, S/P, etc. I am not aware of any great videos laying those out, but Tessa Avery has some really nice write-ups:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/83508-tessa-averys-sworddagger-shortbow-evasion-burst-build/

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/83957-tessa-averys-swordpistol-shortbow-daze-burst-build/

Three tips:

- Keep a shortbow as your offhand in whatever build you like. Once you learn how to use it, it’s a remarkable weapon

- Avoid P/P. It looks simple and noob-friendly, but it’s just not very effective

- Take all the complaining here with a grain of salt. Thieves are fun to play, and have many different styles available

I suspect they looked at Inf Return and noted that it’s the only weapon skill in the game that breaks stun. That anomaly is being corrected.

I think they may not have fully considered how sword builds will fare without it, however. The stunbreak may have been an error, but it is the one shining advantage that build has. Well, that and the fact that it’s not P/P

Valkyrie armor is expensive (in that you can’t buy it with Karma or Badges), but Hidden Killer + Backstab + All That Crit Damage + Piles of Vitality against condition damage = quite a nice bunch of synergies.

The Traveler runes are also expensive, and they’re not perfectly suited to a build without much in the way of boons or conditions (though, again, the crit damage is nice). You could use the much cheaper Runes of Speed and still get the same primary benefit — constant speed without having to use up a utility slot for it.

I have an geared up warrior I do not play. He’s more capable than my thief in almost every way, but I find the playstyle boring. I simply enjoy the thief more.

It works well for 0/0/30/10/30 P/D Condition builds, which is becoming my favorite for WvW.

It’s probably too late in the cycle to suggest significant redesigns of anything, at least for Dec 10th.

Wow.

I’ve been running a D/D spec for a bit in WvW, and I learned a fair bit from watching that video. I also learned that, relatively speaking, I am a terrible thief

Have you played an MMO where this doesn’t happen? I have not. WvW/ RvR/ Pseudo-Open-World PvP always has serious population imbalance issues. That’s the downside of this model.

That said, it’s still my favorite model for PvP in MMO’s. Many of us don’t like arenas/e-sport formats. We live with this, including its biggest inevitable flaw. Zergs!

I do sympathize with you. I’m in this same matchup, for Yak’s Bend. SBI seems to travel in groups of 25+ exclusively. They’re also well organized and fast, at least in NA primetime. That is a tough combination to beat!

For a class-balance discussion in an MMO forum, this is pretty darned civilized

Thanks for the communication. I like the direction of the changes, though that is largely because I never played the D/P build (I prefer the playstyles of S/D, D/D or P/D). Some specific comments, mostly from a WvW perspective:

- Please don’t underestimate how flimsy a non-stealthed thief is. If we’re not hiding, we better be dodging, or we’re stunlocked and dead. The Vigorous Recovery change struck me as too much, and I am glad to see you are rethinking its severity

- It sounds like the cheesy use of Infiltrator’s Strike stomps is a big part of the motivation to nerf it. That sounds like part of a larger problem. It also feels like there are more stuns out there than we can really load up to counter. The fix feels broader than the problem

- Flanking Strikes should be readily available and powerful. It’s a good reward for skilled play at the most important aspect of being a thief — hitting them where they least expect it!

- You’re making a lot of changes to initiative regen. I assume you guys have done the math, and you’re being accurate when you say builds that don’t currently make use of the +initiative traits will get a boost. For a typical crit-power build, however, I wonder how the nerf to Opportunist will balance this out. I wish I could parse the combat logs, so I could tell how much regen I am getting from it now.

Mostly, I want to express my happiness with the Infusion of Shadow change. Though part of me hates to see fellow players get nerfed, the other part of me hated to feel pressured to run a cheesey build because it is so very effective. The best builds should involve fun and sensible gameplay, not adjusting your camera angles and jumping back and forth in a tiny area to somehow become less noticeable.

I use Speed in my Healway guardian now. Here’s why:

- In WvW, I need overland mobility, and I don’t always stick to zergs or play with a set group where someone else provides reliable swiftness

- You can maintain permaswiftness solo, but that has heavy requirements. You must slot Retreat, and you must use both that and Save Yourselves on cooldown (or close), meaning that a surprise fight will leave you with only one utility ready

- You could use a staff, but that’s about to get nerfed. I also prefer */focus for my offhand. Switching out weapons (and utilities) just before fights is too fiddly for my tastes, and also not reliable. A melee class is often not the one to initiate combat.

- Traveler runes have +boon duration, which is great, but they also have a lot of +crit damage. My healway has a single digit crit chance when Fury is not up, so that is a lot of wasted points.

- Speed runes are entirely useful for guardians. They provide enormous vitality, which is helpful against conditions. They often provide in-combat swiftness when you get hit, and they keep my Charr from ever moving at the glacial galumph of a pace he has with no speed buffs

You give up a fair bit to use speed runes — soldier and melandru look very attractive, in particular. When the inventor of the healway build says he sees better value elsewhere (as I have read), you have to take that seriously. However, I just can’t stand playing a pure melee without constant access to zoooom.

D/D didn’t get nerfed. Increasing base initiative gain by 33% is a pretty big deal.

S/D and D/P got nerfed.

Is the six-piece bonus for Runes of Speed fixed?

Asking the party to stop running and stand still in the symbol for a few seconds is an.. improvement?

We have always been at war with Eastasia, right? Doubleplus-good!

D/D and P/D got buffed a bit. S/D ate a moderate nerf, while cheesewheel D/P got forcefed an entire nerf-pizza. Only folks dead-set on that last spec, and only that last spec, need to re-roll their class.

Stealth builds (non-perma division) got buffed.

The change to Symbol of Swiftness concerns me. Does that mean a guardian will have to stop and stand still in the circle for several seconds in order to build up swiftness? That seems counterproductive. The way it’s used now is to cast it ahead of the group, so folks run through it. Will they now be expected to stand there and wait? This would see little use.

I like most of the changes, particularly the removal of the cheesy permastealth build (I main a thief, and I didn’t like feeling pressured into a cheesy spec). I love the changes to elementalist. I might pull the dustcovers off mine, now that we can spec something other than 30 Arcane.

In general, both classes are more complex than your warrior. Thieves require much more attention to positioning, and their fragility means any failed dodge could be fatal. Engineers require an enormous amount of button pressing, almost on a level with elementalists. Neither class will give you overall better results than a warrior, but both provide very different playstyles.

In WvW, Thieves are better for solo roaming due to stealth. Engies are better for medium sized groups or zergs because grenades have a long range and they’re awesome. Both classes have good mobility. Their playstyles are really different, so you will likely be picking on which you find fun. Give both a try for a few levels and see