Guild Wars 2

People have been getting so off topic in this thread after its main question was answered by J sharp.

This isn’t a thread to suggest balance changes just because a dev replied. This is a thread to discuss the pros and cons of splitting balance across the 3 different game types guild was is split into.

Although honestly, what are the cons?

Of course it’s easy in hotjoins, it does the most condi damage in the entire game and most hotjoiners aren’t even aware of what’s on them when they die. But claiming any specific build is “easy” in the realm of hotjoins is pretty laughable.

The entire dynamic of the word difficult implies that you would be playing it at a higher level of play, AKA competitive tourneys. That’s like saying that professional baseball is incredibly easy because you can hit a ball at a batting cage.

There’s a reason why there are only 2-3 engis who play at a high level in tournaments on NA. Yes, the build is strong as kitten and I’m 100% sure that it IS going to get nerfed in some way next patch. But to say it’s easy to play is ridiculous.

Nilix.2170:

I love this map, even in Solo Q, because running the Orb is entertaining. Also, I don’t really see how the map that requires the most different tactics, locks people into certain builds. If anything, the meta that came before it has already done this and Spirit Watch simply allowed for different ones to be useful. SW simply requires different tactics than the other maps. Tactics that I gladly love to play with. The fact that someone even mentioned an Engineer using Elixir X tells me that this map is doing something really great.

HPLT.7132:

This map is actually very frustrating. At least one HGH engenieer who spamms grenades from one of the colums all day long .Then 2 Eles (preferably with arcane shield) which either roaming or capturing the Orb. Maybe a guard with focus which can also capture the Orb fast and a Thief/Mesmer and here you have your META build for spirit watch. Its like the META build on the other maps and you cant do a kitten actually. They run into the first fight with 25 mightstacks up thanks to eles and guard. If you focus on Orb 3 of these guys will just block your damage away in the right Moment. If you focus on point they also have an advantage due to the combination of good burst and heal.
Its not even funny anymore…And its not a L2 kitten ue. Especially the engenieers are ridicoulus (sorry bro’s but 25 might stacks + the conditions they apply that fast that not even a cantrip ele can remove them [who is best condition remover in game] is way over the top).

It’s funny because I think, right now, the best condition removers in the game are the Elixir Engineers themselves. Cleansing Formula 409, 4 Elixirs with one of them being Elixir C. Not only do you cleanse them as they come, but you reap benefits as you do it. Like MIGHT STACKS, RANDOM BOONS, QUICKNESS, PROTECTION or whatever combination of Elixir effects they chose to take.

But in truth, it’s not that Engineers need a nerf. The hurt is simply being applied more effectively since the Kit Refinement change lowered the number of builds that most Engineers choose to bring into PvP. What really needs to happen is a buff to Boon Removal. Stuns and Stability are all very important to PvP in general. HGH throws a middle finger to both. Boon Removal is a big kick in the face to that, as well as the Stability that everyone cries about on bunkers or orb runners in SW. However, no one runs it except for some Necros and, of course, other Engineers (lol we only do everything). If that were improved, there would be more effective ways to counter those things.

Of course, if everyone refuses to budge, the meta will simply remain the same.

Sorry friend, but saying engis are good condi cleansers is not true in the slightest. Our condi cleanses are not aoe in any sense and we shouldn’t be in a position to give AoE cleanses to nearby teammates unlike guardians and eles.

At best our self-cleanses are good enough to beat condi classes if used carefully. At worst our team cleanses are nill.

bromi.7809:

Imo it would be in the Top 5 list of highest Skill Cap builds.

I’m sorry, i just keep going tpvp in 30 ranks and facerolling with it and ppl just die. When i go any other build i have to really be on guard and watch opponent.

That’s because a very large majority of people suck in this game. Simply put, the gap in skill between an amazing player and a kittenty one makes playing HgH at a competitive level ridiculously harder. It’s an amazing build and I’ve refined it until it’s the best. You won’t have as much success comparatively because it IS the best. You can kitten yourself and claim that other builds are harder to be successful with, but that’s like saying that because you go into a tourney with no amulet on your build is harder to play.

HGH is a hard build to play. Go ahead and stroke your kitten all ya want, but I’ve played a lot of games on a lot of classes with a lot of builds and it’s one that takes a lot of practice. If you miss a grenade you’re punished more severely than any other class in the game.

And plus, if you’re rank 30 you lack the experience that, in my opinion, is required to comment on the difficulty of a build. When I was rank 30 I ran that exact build with static discharge. It’s pretty crappy ;(

Jalad Lantana.3027:

I will point out the dead horse the Arenanet employees are tippy toeing around, Rangers and Engineers need to be re-adjusted in PVE so they are relevant. I don’t play an Engineer so I can’t speak for them, but I do play a ranger. Please give Rangers back full Zypher in PVE. Spend some quality time on giving the classe some skills or combos to Rangers that have value to a dungeon PVE team. As it stands now, PVE teams have no reason to add Rangers to a team. Otherwise all this discussion is a bunch of styling and BS.

Wrong forums, friend.

I actually use keyboard turning for minor turns and whatnot. Like say if your running directly away from a guy, but you’re headed straight for a wall next to a set of stairs. Keyboard turning allows you to slightly alter your angle while throwing nades at the same time.

It’s not suitable for movement under any other scenario, but it’s a common enough scenario to warrant keeping it hotkeyed.

The magic of this game is that everyone has the same stats. The only things that matter are builds, balance and skill.

So yes, if you have two people on you you’re probably gonna die. Big surprise. Unlike in WvW they have the exact same gear as anyone else

Bailey.6892:

Zenith.7301:

I think it’s time to change the WvW ruleset to share spvp limitations, like a hard cap on crit damage bonus at 60% and using the spvp formula for confusion, which is pretty broken against players with the PvE one.

I disagree, WvW is the best their is out their imo. spvp is just like sitting out side of ogirmar dueling to me. WvW seems to have the more diverse builds and imo the funnest play style. Would hate to see it turned into something like spvp.

EDIT:
I am also nervous about the team doing anything like this…they have not exactly installed confidence in me based on the past. So yea having them touch the code worrues me.

They have the coding. Really it can be nothing but beneficial. Your description of SPvP as a side game shows that you’d really prefer to have it balanced separately.

How would it be a bad thing to split balance between the side-show of SPvP and WvW? You confuse me sir. You say you don’t like it, but you’d prefer your own preferred game type to be balanced under the same unbrella and thereby possibly effecting it negatively because of SPvP imbalances that don’t exist in WvW.

uberkingkong.8041:

dude, how much stacks of might do I need to be running around with? Am I suppose to use up all the elixirs? I know you say its situational, but I don’t understand how much might I should keep up, which elixirs are the throwaway ones.

I used up all the elixirs and landed every grenade on this necromancer, I didn’t come close to killing him, is necromancer suppose to win against this build?

Are you suppose to swap weapons a lot, like use #2 grenade then blowtorch and repeat? Because I’m normally in nades, not sure if theres certain critical skills that you should never have a timer on while using this build. Like should I always use blowtorch when its timer is up or #2 nades?

fighting necros is all about avoiding their transfers. Putrid mark on their staff and the dagger offhand’s 4. If you get hit by those you’ll lose every fight against a necro. Corrupt boon hurts, but you can recover. It’s all about outlasting them. Blind their marks, dodge their putrid/transfers and their death shroud #2. Line of sight if you get too many conditions and start cleansing.

Don’t use blowtorch off cooldown, save it for a while if you can. It depends on the situation. If you can get close to a guy, go for it. If there’s an opportunity to lay it on multiple targets then do it. It’s also the only thing damaging ability we have that can actually go through projectile reflects and absorbs

Swap kits a LOT. Very, very rarely should you EVER use the 1 on both grenades and your pistols. Our auto attacks might just be the worst in the game. Stack conditions in a smart manner as well, first in is first out. It’s also one of the best ways to get might.

And the specific permutation of that build that the guide covers will not have very many might stacks outside of combat. It takes a full 40-50 seconds of being in combat and elixir chugging to get your full might stacks and it depends on how often you’re swapping. Short fuse is a great trait for this build and is really helpful against guards, thieves, warriors and eles, but if you’re finding yourself up against classes with a lot of boon cleave (mesmers, condi necros) then you can drop it for enhanced performance.

In a typical fight with short fuse I’ll usually have 15-25 depending on how long I’m in the fight and if it gets cleaved off. With enhanced performance I’ll almost ALWAYS have 25 stacks. Don’t be afraid to pop your heal out of combat when you’re roaming in between fights. It’ll usually be up by the time you’re back in combat. Just keep swapping for that battle sigil, make it a habit

naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

It’s bad, I swear

Whipem.1705:

You guys need to stop complaining about solo que vs premades…

If you don’t want to play tournament style then don’t. If you solo queue then you do so at your own risk.

Smart thing to do would be to create a group and play that way if you can’t stand pug’s in tournaments.

Remember it is TOURNAMENT PVP. there is another sPVP you can go play.

Quit complaining about this. There are more important aspects we should be addressing. Like Class balancing, Rating system, etc….

Thanks

This is from a guy who has some of the most played games in the entire world:

L
O
L

N
O

Seriously, can we get an answer please?

Last night I went from rank 8 down to rank 405 solo queueing. I honestly don’t care about ranks, but I know other people do. It’s sad when I’m in a group and beat a legitimately good team and they lose more rank than they should JUST because I solo queue. Feels bad man.

Currently they are from a tourney perspective in my opinion.

But like penguin said, balance changes happen with zero warning, so who knows about next month? Since the start of the game we went from middle of the road then to bottom of the barrel and now we’re at top with HgH.

A lot of the buffs are irreversible though. It’s not like they’re gonna remove sigils on kits :P

Celtus.8456:

Am I the only person who thought GW1’s separation of PvP/PvE balance was a bad move? It caused rampant over-buffing of PvE skills, some of which spilled over into PvP. Besides that, I do not seem to recall any great balancing achievements in PvP or PvE caused by the skill split, I do feel that the quality of the game declined though (especially the challenge of PvE and diversity of PvP builds).

And I believe the gap between “PvP players” and “PvE players” was widened…

Really your argument boils down to balancing problems that didn’t occur from the split itself but rather the incompetence that followed.

Nice editing! You left a lot of my pointless rambling out, I was worried I’d look as dumb as I actually am there for a while.

I’m not sure if this map is fixable from a competitive standpoint. Even with fixes to the orb, the way the map is laid out promotes snowballing far, far more than any other map in the entire game.

Killing people and pushing continual fights is a great strat on a lot of maps, but when you add in the fact that the three points are incredibly close together for classes with teleports AND the fact that a capped orb = 1 full minute of holding a point it becomes too much.

Simply put, it’s a bad, bad competitive map. When a team loses, they lose B A D. Like, 500-200 bad.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/New-vid-up-eSports-Gaming-w-Ostrich-Eggs/first#post1809396

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/New-vid-up-eSports-Gaming-w-Ostrich-Eggs/first#post1809396

seen a lot of people ask for this, so I figured I’d post it in the engi forums too

jcbroe.4329:

NevirSayDie.6235:

jcbroe.4329:

Hmm? I thought it was being run with Carrion, not rabid. I have only watched Teldo play engy though, so I can’t really speak from an area of knowing anything about it.

Edit: whoops, meant rampagers.

It can be run with rampager’s as well, but it’s not a great choice because you actually lose over 200 condition damage in addition to then having base toughness. So the extra couple hundred power and precision is cool but just not worth it unless you plan on never getting hit. Teldo can do that because he’s Teldo.

It’s the exact reason why, even though I find his streams entertaining, I can’t stand the builds he uses lol. They are very specific and somehow work for him very well though.

ahaha. I used to watch his stream a long time ago. I think he ran bomb kit and flamethrower back in the day when elixir R on reset with bomb/nade was just ridiculous.

I kittening hate his builds so much but he just plays so well he overcomes it. He’s kitten good.

Lordrosicky.5813:

What I would like to say to anet:

So you decided to crap all over the best necro build by ruining our best skill (epidemic) whilst doing kitten all to compensate us (lower epidemic cast time should of been done).

Yeh have fun epidemicing with a 1 second cast time on an ele who has infinite dodges or vs a guardian who can throw up a block at any moment – hint – this is impossible to skillfully do because of the long cast time unlike corrupt boon which is fine.

We need some buffs to the necro now imo. (o yeh and not to kittening minions). Give us some buffs to the staff auto attack and give us reduced epidemic cast time.

QFT

Given that poor necros have the lowest variety of conditions and the highest cooldowns of almost any condi classes, the only thing that made them even slightly decent was the fact that they could piggy-back off other classes condis (like eles and guards for burning). Now that epidemic was “fixed” it becomes a far less effective build with no compensation at all. It was hard to get off before; good players poop themselves when they see more than three damage condis and start cleansing or running. That’s not to mention the amount of AoE team cleanses flying around or the fact that all conditions are lost when a player goes down.

Getting a good epidemic off on a target was difficult before and now almost impossible.

randomfightfan.4091:

Arheundel.6451:

Maethar.5627:

Engis are close to eles in strength right now but their fix is much simpler in my opinion, just reduce hgh stacks duration and then re-evaluate their strength. Honestly I’m surprised that there is minimal qq about engis considering how powerful they are at the moment.

Really…..why don’t you post your build and possibly a video of you losing to an engy?

because you don’t “lose” to an engi, he just stand on the point, healing off bombs, and never tanking ANY damage he can’t out heal. Bunker-bomb engi is just disgusting in this king of the hill “pvp” thing we have right now. It’s one of the highest skill ceiling classes but the best build it has right now is so lazy that a monkey could win while using it (and not even a smart monkey at that).

lol

aydenunited.5729:

It’s not OP on a 1v1 basis, per se.

It’s OP when you consider that the entire endgame of tPvP is point control, and HGH engineers brutalize AoE in a team fight… that ultimately means no rez, no point control, and unless you focus the Engie first (which no one is accustomed to doing yet) they are going to literally rain a bad day upon you.

Welcome to the problem with conquest as the only game type. You have to unbalance the professions to balance the game mode. Such a waste of a great game engine IMO.

I disagree so much that it’s ridiculous. Our AoE is huge, but it’s far far less than a power nade engi.

The reason why it is OP is that it has incredible damage in both 1v1s and team fights. It is an unstoppable killing machine when played to its potential, something that no one has ever achieved (even me, and I like to thing I “made” the build).

It’s a kittening ridiculous spec and probably the best in the game atm. It kittens on everything with zero remorse. Point control and AoE is hardly our boons. I can’t hold a point for the life of me. AoE kings go to power nade engis, warriors and thieves with cluster bomb.

jportell.2197:

shimmerless.4560:

Not really sure why people are flipping out about “25 Might stacks”, I’ve done it on many different classes (incl. War without having to take the red-headed FGJ) and I didn’t compromise the builds much or anything. Almost all classes have a means to stack Might if they’re determined about it.

25 might stacks… mesmers used to get that .. Then it was considered OP and nerfed. But maintaining 25 might stacks on other classes is quite easy.

That’s because it was on shatter. 25 stacks of might in HGH requires a full trait line with a grandmaster major trait, a full set of runes for might duration and a sigil that gives about half of those might stacks.

Evidently people think that getting 25 stacks of might means you get everything else to boot. Mesmers shatterrs critting for 4-5k each was a different story than an HGH engi.

Sprawl.3891:

Ostricheggs.3742:

NevirSayDie.6235:

blurps.2340:

There are two problems with the HGH condi build:

1. It’s too well rounded, you don’t have to sacrifice anything. Ironically enough virtually all the other Engineer builds have the exact opposite issue, you have to specialize to even do kinda ok at the thing you’re specializing in yet still retain considerable weaknesses thanks to the hybrid tax.

The conclusion is pretty simple: To adjust the build, ANet need to target it very specifically rather than carpet bombing the class again like they love to do if anyone comes up with a way to build around the inbuilt deficiencies.

2. The build can overwhelm even dedicated condition cleansers without too much trouble. This is a meta game problem and will have to be solved accordingly.

Unfortunately we’ll probably see another blanket nerf, hurting other builds much more than HGH…Remember that there are other way to stack might as Engineer for example and that users of Enhanced Performance or AoE might stacking through bombs and FT would be completely destroyed by nerfs to might duration runes.

Actually, HGH nades is a hyper-specialized build that’s not rounded at all. It has:

—zero interrupts
—zero support
—a ton of conditions.

Your second point is technically correct. This is a build that can finally counterbalance bunker eles and guards. Why is that a bad thing, again?

It’s bad cuz it’s an unstoppable killing machine with unrivaled potential that hasn’t been reached by any player to date. It does have its weaknesses and right now I think a-net should work on bringing sub-par classes, utilities and trait lines up to par, but in the current meta it’s hard not to consider an HGH engi OP.

hey i watched your stream last night and saw 2 games vs Satarractomey’s team and their ele was owning you at your treb and you had to run away or get team help every time. Was he just really good or what?

you were running rifle/nade though not p/p

Yea, vexeus is probably the best ele in the game. He’s amazingly good. I beat him a lot though when I run condis, rifle is just to down treb and has a lot of weaknesses against an ele. It’s a catch 22, down the treb that sataar always repairs or go condis and kill vexeus :|

Really it comes down to the eles sustain and large armor in valk. I think he was running zerkers the first game I fought him and ended up killing him a few times. It’s a difficult fight where an engi needs to play beyond perfectly, both rifle and condis.

NevirSayDie.6235:

blurps.2340:

There are two problems with the HGH condi build:

1. It’s too well rounded, you don’t have to sacrifice anything. Ironically enough virtually all the other Engineer builds have the exact opposite issue, you have to specialize to even do kinda ok at the thing you’re specializing in yet still retain considerable weaknesses thanks to the hybrid tax.

The conclusion is pretty simple: To adjust the build, ANet need to target it very specifically rather than carpet bombing the class again like they love to do if anyone comes up with a way to build around the inbuilt deficiencies.

2. The build can overwhelm even dedicated condition cleansers without too much trouble. This is a meta game problem and will have to be solved accordingly.

Unfortunately we’ll probably see another blanket nerf, hurting other builds much more than HGH…Remember that there are other way to stack might as Engineer for example and that users of Enhanced Performance or AoE might stacking through bombs and FT would be completely destroyed by nerfs to might duration runes.

Actually, HGH nades is a hyper-specialized build that’s not rounded at all. It has:

—zero interrupts
—zero support
—a ton of conditions.

Your second point is technically correct. This is a build that can finally counterbalance bunker eles and guards. Why is that a bad thing, again?

It’s bad cuz it’s an unstoppable killing machine with unrivaled potential that hasn’t been reached by any player to date. It does have its weaknesses and right now I think a-net should work on bringing sub-par classes, utilities and trait lines up to par, but in the current meta it’s hard not to consider an HGH engi OP.

Amadeus.5687:

@Spiuk: Just asumeing your right, and that grenades indeed are the hardest skill to land in the game (which I would only agree with if at range, at melee even bombs is harder to land, then the nades, because of it’s explosion delay)!

But we say they are the hardest which is quite fair, then a 4 kit builds running let’s say: Medkit, Toolkit, Bombkit and Nade kit, still a way harder build to play then the HGH nade build, which was my point! Kit’s will allways be harder to use then the ELixirs :P
Even then I would still claim that a 4 kit build even without a build in Nade kit is harder to manage prober, then it is to play a HGH nade build (Done both a power and condition variant of it)! Simply because you need to swap in and out of different ranges, remeber CD and be fast enough on your fingers to time and use every kit to it’s maximum! Which ain’t a “skill shot”, but it’s still “skill based” to play like that

Does that mean I think HGH Grenade build is easy to play? No not at all, it’s a super hard build to master, and requrie a ton of skill :P It’s simply not THE hardest

Of course it’s not the hardest. It’s just the hardest of the builds that actually remain viable, which I guess isn’t saying much because there aren’t many viable ones left in the game

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Interesting that this became a discussion about engi v. necro difficulty.

What can be said about Necro relative to other classes is that their stun breaks are trash, they have no access to blocking, invulnerable, vigor, stealth, stun/daze (other than the minion elite which is not as good as plague or lich and warhorn 4 which is arguably the worst off hand for a necro regardless of if they are power or condi)or knock back (except when in Lich). That is a heavy price to pay for the utility of shroud. The class cannot do damage in any form as well as other classes, can’t support as well as other classes, can’t bunker as well as other classes, has no mobility, and if it is trained and chain CC’d can’t survive and can’t escape.

It isn’t that Necro is awful, infact it has better versatility than most classes. For a Necro to be truly effective in any role, though, it needs team support. All of the other classes have better ways to be self sufficient and easier ways to play.

That’s the problem right there. It NEEDS support moreso than any other class. If need be any class designed to be a teamfighter should hold its own in a 1v1 situation or should be able to roam very quickly.

Explicitly saying that X class/build is only useful around teammates makes that class or build worth far less than a class that can do just as well in a team fight but also roam with speed and efficacy.

For how much support necros NEED to survive they don’t bring very much to the table.

Dirame.8521:

Ostricheggs.3742:

yes it’s easier to be good, because necros are bad. Good necros playing near the skill cap CAN wipe teams so quick that you’ll kitten yourself, but no where near the rate someone like me can with an engi. The objective differences are clear, the major one being burning. The differences in skillcap are subjective but also, in my opinion, clear because of grenades being the hardest skillshot in the game as well as the larger variety and single-application condis. Death shroud management is hardly “management” in any real sense and marks are kitten easy to land in comparison to something like grenades. They also have notably less impact outside of putrid mark in comparison to grenades.

Jugglign might stacks with elixirs is a double edged sword and requires an experienced player. Knowing when to move in and out of a fight is something almost unheard of on a necro because their abilities are hardly range dependent in the slightest. Understanding when to be, and when not to be, in kits, understanding how to kit swap properly and understanding how to react to every single class and spec is the bare MINIMUM for playing an HGH engi. Calling a necro harder is kinda crazy IMO and I object greatly >:(

The truth is, the HGH engie has the same things to worry about as any other class, just with some slight differences. Landing grenades on a moving target is hard but chucking grenades on an ongoing fight on a point? So easy I could do it blind.

I agree with you 100%. However in 90% of cases where I have the opportunity to chuck grenades onto a point I’ll choose not to because the engi becomes far, far more effective changing range around the fight and kiting. A lot of our pistol abilities are extremely strong but require us to be in near melee range to get the real effect.

THAT is the hallmark of a good engi IMO. Being able to survive while kiting in and out of a fight to maximize damage and focus fire. Simply spamming nades on a point is ineffective in comparison and very quickly becomes worthless once you throw about three in an HGH condi build.

ensoriki.5789:

Ostricheggs.3742:

clear because of grenades being the hardest skillshot in the game

I don’t recall grenades being any harder to land than Cluster bombing or Arcing Arrow at the same distance.

No, but you don’t see a thief devoting all of his time trying to land a clust bomb at 900 range.

We get NO mid range abilities worth a kitten outside of grenades. Our 1’s on both pistols and grenades are the worst in the game. The worst in the game.

It’s the hardest skill shot in the game because it’s the most used when taken.

At the moment it is granted WAY more HP than it is intended to give. This bug was around in previous builds and is back!

I know it’s an oversimplification and probably condescending. And no, it’s not aoe spam in tourneys. AoE spam is standing off a point and throwing nades on a point and hoping someone walks into them. actually LANDING grenades on a moving target actively engaging you requires far more skill than landing a mark in the same situation. Cluster bombs can (and should) be blown up mid air when over the target making them far easier to land because of the speed of the slow moving cluster bombs. Staff eles are just lol, I can’t really comment on them.

All I’m objecting to is calling HGH easier than playing a necro. Necros are easier by a mile.

yes it’s easier to be good, because necros are bad. Good necros playing near the skill cap CAN wipe teams so quick that you’ll kitten yourself, but no where near the rate someone like me can with an engi. The objective differences are clear, the major one being burning. The differences in skillcap are subjective but also, in my opinion, clear because of grenades being the hardest skillshot in the game as well as the larger variety and single-application condis. Death shroud management is hardly “management” in any real sense and marks are kitten easy to land in comparison to something like grenades. They also have notably less impact outside of putrid mark in comparison to grenades.

Jugglign might stacks with elixirs is a double edged sword and requires an experienced player. Knowing when to move in and out of a fight is something almost unheard of on a necro because their abilities are hardly range dependent in the slightest. Understanding when to be, and when not to be, in kits, understanding how to kit swap properly and understanding how to react to every single class and spec is the bare MINIMUM for playing an HGH engi. Calling a necro harder is kinda crazy IMO and I object greatly >:(

Vicarious.3047:

Yeah I don’t really think the “tier lists” have necros low cause the creators think they’re bad, but cause the other classes are either more useful or just OP in some regard.

I mean every tourney team needs a guardian to bunker, and most usually search for mesmers for home point guards cause they’re OP 1v1 and have portal, then thieves make the best burst cause they also have a lot of utility, and eles are simply OP in general so why not take several of them?

So I personally put necro after those 4 classes but ahead of engies, rangers, and obviously the UP warrior. But there are some frustratingly good engie builds coming out and due to the necros higher skill cap more people are favoring the engie now (higher then these newer engie builds, i know the engineer has an incredibly high skill cap in general, hold the flaming…).

Cam Ron.4170:

I have thief and warrior at the bottom but they can both be very good

That’s half true half false.

Thieves can be very useful in MANY different ways in small and large fights. Warriors on the other hand literally have NOTHING going for them, so no they can not be “very good.”

Also you didn’t even put mesmer on your list.

I personally see it like this:

TOP TIER:

-Ele
-Guardian
-Mesmer

MID TIER:

-Thief
-Necro
-Engie
-Ranger

LOW TIER:

-Warrior

And in that order, the first three are almost essential for tourney teams (with ele simply being OP, essential or not). The next four are all viable options in some way but are not necessary, an ele can replace any of them basically. Finally the warrior, there is no reason to take a warrior over any of the other classes.

I shall not hold the flaming sir. Necros are ez mode in comparison to HGH engis and are far inferior in general due to a lack of burning, lack of condi variety and lack of physical damage. They’re also less reactionary in the sense that their main damaging abilities are also their main CC and access to poison. Their lack of a stun break in builds running signet of undeath hampers their survivability immesnely. The “fix” to epidemic just kicked em while they were already down. While you could consider them “good”, other classes do their job and do it MUCH, MUUUUUUCH better.

But seriously, engis are not easy to play. God kittening kitten

I dunno maiiin, HGH is pretty overpowered.

jportell.2197:

Barely a sacrifice? When I play my mesmer my team tells me not to run it because what I bring to the team in terms of DPS or survivability (build) is dependant on at least 2 skill slots available… On my guard Mercy signet I will bring if the team asks. Guards can counter interrupts with stand your ground… And if that is the case I will sacrifice hold the line… And it has worked wonders in team fights because they were able to stay alive longer than 15 seconds… and any of our one stun breaks is on a long CD so with our low mobility we cannot easily escape a fight we are losing other wise… And engis are very good with elixr R and can some times even insta res themselves… So IOL is marginally and very situational.

Engis can only insta-rez themselves with 2 thrown elixir Rs, something very hard to do. It can also be entirely countered by damage and poison. Signet of mercy is something no good guardian even considers running.

And a mesmers role in a team fight is minimal in comparison to other classes. Preventing a stomp instantly is HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE in a team fight and turns the tide 75% of the time. Their survivability and 1v1 potential are hampered by running it, but the support effect of it is just too good to pass up and almost all good mesmers will agree… The sacrifices for the benefit is little.

DiogoSilva.7089:

In my opinion, the devs are doing the right thing about having as few skill splits as possible. And it’s good to know that all the skill splits so far have been separated by number changes only.

In GW1, there was a crazy, unnecessary number of skill splits. Pvp splits that were still pointless in pvp, pve splits that were still pointess in pve, and even skills that were radically different depending on their format. To give one example, Signet of Spirits summons 3 spirits in pve, but for pvp it is an energy management skill instead. Outside of sharing the same name, they are pretty much two different skills that are locked to each mode. It’s ridiculous.

There are changes that can be done, that would nerf or buff a skill more in a format than in the other, due to the nature of how both formats work. It is possible to make skills balanced in both formats without skill splitting, and only when that is not possible, is that splits should be made. For example, confusion is splitted because enemies in pve attack at a much slower pace. It’s impossible to balance confusion without a split, or without a radical and unrealistic change to how pve enemies work.

I understand the value in as little splitting as possible. There is logic behind not having two skills with the same name in two different game modes. But the simple fact of the matter is that balance becomes far harder to achieve and especially damaging to PvP when you don’t even consider splitting it, even with something as simple as splitting numbers. The difference in game modes is just one aspect of how incredibly different both are. All they need to do is split numbers, not effect.

It’s a simple solution to a large problem that continues to plague balance and will do so until a-net changes the way they actually balance the game. The current system is asinine to say the least. It’s impossible to justify the quickness nerf in PvP outside of time warp. In PvE it’s slightly understandable. A mob doesn’t immediately hop on a frenzy warrior and one shot him. A player does. The differences are so vast that the blanket nerf to quickness, while arguably good in PvE, damages the warrior in PvP to the point that it is now unviable.

That stipulation is minor when you compare it to the length of IOL and how the game works. If there is not chance for them to kill someone they can either portal out or run away and get ressed. Furthermore, cooldowns (like their healing abilities) tick down while they’re in down state. That’s a pretty big factor when someone is IOL’d because the best way to counter it is to rekill that person. Not an easy thing to do against most classes.

Elixir R and the glyph are also far inferior to IOL. The glyph because of its massive cast time (longer than a stomp’s cast time, lol) and elixir R because it can be poisoned to the point of worthlessness and because of the difficulty in bringing elixir R into any build.

It is arguably one of the most important utilities to bring as a mesmer because of its power. The sacrifices they make for it are negligible for how it works. I understand that mirror images is their only stun break in most situations, but energy sigils, perma vigor and distortion make up for it for survivability. Their lack of condi cleanse and their single stun break is their only sacrifice for IOL. It’s barely a sacrifice and that’s why they run it.

It is legitly overpowered at the skill cap. However, the skill floor and skill cap in an HgH build are extremely high, arguably the highest in the game.

It is the only build to have the hardest and most reliably used skill shot. There is no comparison to the punishment one experiences when you miss a grenade. It is the central aspect of the build and piggybacks on its ability to deal both physical and condition damage via might stacks. It’s also the only class in the game that is solely reactionary. Very, very rarely do engineers actually determine the outcome of a fight based upon their abilities and forcing their opponents to react to it. The engineer is the one reacting themselves by nature of the class and build.

The simple fact of the matter is that it IS a very strong build and DOES need to be nerfed, but people need to understand that it is not a d/d elementalist. There are not five players in the entire world who can land grenades reliably and effectively play HgH at a decent skill level in tourneys.

As far as how to nerf it? That’s another story. Personally I think that nerfs to on swap sigils and might duration runes are the best way to go. Nade kit is the only thing in the entire game that fully takes advantage of might both via physical damage and condi damage. The insane damage of grenades needs to stay just because of its nature as the hardest skill shot in the game, but the insane-er damage of grenades with massive amounts of might stacks needs to go.

Maybe reduce the effect of on-swap sigils on engineers and eles? We can make the best of them because of how we operate with our “swaps”. We only need one sigil to make it work.

Also, burning is the hardest hitting condi in the game and engis are the only class that has a viable condi build that can reliably take advantage of its power. Most other classes with access to burning do not have a wide variety of other conditions to cover it.

this one might actually be good.

I’m more interested in what good players have to say than what the devs have to say. The last one had the impression of good player-dev interaction, but apparently they totally forgot they were destroying quickness and never mentioned it in three hours of discussion about balance. LOL!

Like nerfing two classes into the ground didn’t deserve a brief explanation, right guis?

DrakesGreenEnvy.9683:

Thesilentflute.8761:

Ostricheggs.3742:

I hate to say it but bunkers are one of the hardest classes to play in the game. It’s one of the most important jobs and THE most under appreciated job. A good guardian wins games.

Of course it helps if one or more nodes is controlled by a player that has to be burned down by 2+/5 to remove them with the same spawn time but don’t kid yourself about it being skillful. Just think if you had 5 bunk guards then they would need at least 10 players to win. It isn’t just guards any class that goes bunker is cheese because the scaling is kittened up.

Lol I’m sure all the other bads that play bunker will agree with you. I didn’t say it didn’t help win games I said its cheese and only trash players/guilds go that route.

I guess every good team that has ever played this game is trash…
It’s not just about holding a point. It’s coordinating CC with your team’s burst. It’s peeling. It’s managing to get off stomps and reses. There’s so much to bunker Guardians that is underestimated, especially in the EU meta.

QFT.

Even with all that the stress of being in the middle of a teamfight and attempting to survive against a metric kittenload of stuff flying around from all directions WHILE having enough situational awareness to actually help your team with meaningful CC is incredibly difficult.

Run-on sentences go

It seems legit though. It’s accurately updating games won/lost. I don’t know how anyone would get that info outside of a-net.

Although I really have no idea. If you’re afraid then you best just wait for a bit until a-net confirms it’s truly the leaderboards. Personally I think they are.

Oh yea, that’s true too. I’ve never understood that myself and gets pretty confusing. Should be fixed :|

jportell.2197:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

1.) A necro is not a counter to a shout-guardian, it’’s vice-versa. A shout remove 2 conditions (if you run the proper build).

2.) A good mesmer never run decoy/blink/null field/arcane thievery, because his other utilites like IoL and Portal are much much stronger.

In conclusion that means: (team vs. team) you have to focus on these single builds to be competitive enough. SoloQ is a different story.

Honestly mesmer IOL isn’t as strong as signet of undeath, battle standard, or signet of mercy… I say this because those three fully res a player no matter what… You also have ranger search and rescue which while not as instant is still pretty darn good… And a shatter mes is more powerful at removing boons than null field because getting out of the AOE is pretty easy… Shatter skills removing a boon on hit is much faster and more effecient at removing boons than null field.

You aren’t taking into account the fact that mesmers drop very little for IOL (unlike battle standard and mercy), has the lowest cooldown of all utilities that rez, has the shortest cast time of all utilities that rez (by a LONG shot, it’s easy to interrupt a necro’s signet), AND puts players back into downed state once it wears off. The effect is far exaggerated for these factors and makes it a pretty imbalanced ability ovreall.

Phantaram.1265:

Balance isn’t the reason people are leaving. So while I agree splitting more stuff from pve and wvwvw is a good idea it’s far down on the list of important things.

I agree with this, but the problem is that balance is the easiest thing to do with the current state of affairs.

It’s pretty obvious to everyone how PvP has taken a backseat to PvE. All balancing needs is a few changes to numbers and some smart people. To actually implement the things required takes both money and population in-game. I can assume that they don’t have the devs they need to implement the features that would best revive PvP. AKA they don’t have the money for it. I KNOW they don’t have the population for it.

Balance is a simple and effective way to satisfy a dissatisfied playerbase. The cost to effect on player morale as a whole is the greatest IMO. The fact that they’ve barely even stuck their toe in the water over the past 9 months is insane and damages their players faith in the games future.

There would be a great benefit in making solo/duo queues seperate from trio-5man queues while taking into account the number of players solo/duo queueing with trio-4mans. Right now the system is flawed and punishes solo queuers (like myself) and punishes those players at the top who don’t solo queue but lose to solo queuers. This skews the leaderboards so they’re NOT legitimate.

I personally think that I ruined davinci and sataar’s chances at being at the top of the leaderboards because I beat them a lot recently in gasmask, shan’s and lily’s group. They deserve it wayyyy more than those three IMO. It’s a shame, really. The guys who worked the hardest at it got screwed over by the guys who just started playing hardcore again and picked a few games off the guys who should be at the top. While they DID end up beating the top players, having someone like me with a terrible ratio because I solo queue beat them just makes it far, far worse.

Your system is flawed a-net. Please address this quickly

Oh boy, here it goes

Rank 38. I solo queue the most of any top player (I have the most losses of anyone on the leaderboard)

I think I should be higher but c’est la vie. At least I can take credit for davinci and sataar being lower than gasmask, lolol

only on grenade barrage, there’s a distinct and unique white circle with no extra effects.

Ezeriel.9574:

I’m thinking 90% chance of nerfing. I’m pretty sure that every engineer build that has become popular has been nerfed.

The devs want the base to play a variety of builds, and the only way they know how to do that is through nerfs. If something becomes too popular they nerf it.

The problem with that, is that, eventually nothing is worth playing. If you take that practice to it’s most extreme, you end up with the engineer.

That isn’t true either. Take a look at triple cantrip water eles, they’re still one of the best specs in the game for months and months running.

Honestly any speculation on what a-net does with balance is kinda pointless. When they get a bur up their kitten to do something they’re gonna do it even if it damages the game itself. Logic and actual balance in their balancing don’t seem to play a role…

Zenguy.6421:

I don’t think ANet can afford to nerf our HGH Elixir builds for the simple reason that it’s pretty much the only option ANet have left viable for most of us atm.

That didn’t stop them from nerfing quickness.

A-net has a ridiculous record of nerfing classes into the ground. We were the target of one such mishap. Our only viable build (bombs, nades and R) was nerfed into the ground. Engis then proceeded to get entirely ignored by the playerbase for months and months until the few people actually playing it discovered ridiculously amazing builds following a TON of buffs (hundred nades, HGH power/condis, namely).

I have a feeling that they won’t have any problems with doing it again. The warrior took it up the kitten just last patch and will remain worthless in tourneys for many patches to come.