Guild Wars 2

Added a few more details, and included a breakdown for a 10 Alchemy variant.

I don’t think this build is changing much in the way of today’s patch, and this now has pretty much all the information I believe it needs, so expect no real big updates for a while.

Xyonon.3987:

@ Phineas:
Be fair: A thief can throw a shadow field and spam shortbow 2 to increase the dura by a long time.

Perhaps I made myself unclear, but I meant to say we were second only to thieves when it came to stealth-stacking, meaning they’re better than us. And it’s not even close.

Smoke Screen + Blinding Powder + Clusterbomb spam + Shadow Refuge = 25+ seconds of stealth, depending on traits.

hydeaut.1758:

Smoke bomb is just another example: Mesmer veil is 1 button and has no Aoe-cap

Engineer may have more options, still these are not efficient if you have room for specialized classes.

Mmmmm … not quite.

Engineers are the second-best class in the game at stacking stealth. The only ones better than us in this regard are thieves. And if they weren’t, there’d be no reason to take one into dungeons because they don’t really offer much else aside from DPS to a group.

Veil is an OK skill, but it doesn’t really compare to the 17 seconds of stealth a bomb engineer can provide (12s through blast finishers + 5s through Toss Elixir S). That’s more than enough to skip dredge and (at higher levels) snowblind fractal mobs. Veil isn’t.

Smoke Bomb isn’t just used for stealth, either. It’s actually a pretty fantastic blind field for fractals when stacking and killing trash. It’s no Black Powder, but it is a much larger field and you have a bit more control as to where it goes.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/86927-building-around-the-bomb-kit/

Bombsaway.7198:

Great comments folks! Overall, the focus has been a bit PvE. Anyone want to comment on WvW?

Lack of reliable stability.

Toss Elixir B helps, but its cooldown is only reduced filling points in the Tools tree, which is really inefficient for WvW past 10 points.

Manuhell.2759:

No aesthetical endgame due to hobosacks and kits covering our weapons.

As an engineer with a legendary, I have to dispute this.

No class in this game just uses one weapon all the time. If they do, they’re a terrible player and are not truly adapting properly to the correct situation or group composition.

Kits override our weapons, but you should be actively integrating your pistol or rifle into your rotation in WvW and PvE. For condition builds the pistol is an amazing spreader, and for power builds the rifle has two of the most damaging attacks at our disposal. Actively wielding your weapons and not just your kits will make you a better engineer.

Assassin.7890:

I simply love perma speed for PvE content.

That’s kind of a bad reason to play engineer. Most classes can achieve this already. Most players complain about how slow mesmer is, but even they can get permanent swiftness if you wear 6/6 Rune of Air and use Temporal Curtain (traited) and Mantra of Recovery.

I think aesthetic has a lot to do with it. As a tech-based class, it clashes with a lot of the more traditional fantasy archetypes like thief, guardian, and warrior. There are people out there that just naturally gravitate toward paladin-like characters, just as there are those that always play the rogue/assassin/thief class in every game. It really should come as no surprise to anyone that mesmer and engineer are the least created classes of all of them—they’re definitely the most unusual of the bunch.

I actually don’t think engineer is a very difficult class to learn, but it’s very challenging to master. Compared to elementalist, I think engineer has a lower skill floor—but engineer has the higher skill ceiling. And you have to just put so much more effort into being successful as an engineer compared to other classes. Having leveled thief and warrior, those two classes at 80 are just so much more intuitive when it comes to DPS roles. Guardians and mesmers are similarly much more straight-forward when it comes to group support through projectile walls and AoE buffs (aegis, stability, quickness).v Engineer used to be competitive to elementalists when it came to might stacking, but then they went and buffed Persistent Flames. Having all of these classes to 80 has re-oriented my perspective of the engineer, and made me realize how much less intuitive the class is when put together. As a sum of all its parts it is a fun class to play, but it’s not necessarily the most approachable, either.

Realistically speaking, the only things we’re really “best” at anymore is vulnerability stacking and condition removal. Condition removal is not very commonly needed in most areas of the game as most classes are self-sufficient in this. When I’m rolling on my engineer I make a point to tell other classes to slot out their condition removal skills in favor of other ones that might increase our overall DPS, but the end result is generally unnoticeable as most PvE content doesn’t apply enough condi pressure.

And when it comes to vulnerability stacking, you get a lot of deplorable min/maxers going around saying that the grenade kit is the only way to play because it is best at this role. It’s not a very fun kit to wield, yet it gets the most use because it’s shoved down peoples’ throats that it is the only kit worth building around—because engineers are best taken for their vulnerability stacking, you’re a “bad” engineer if you use something other than the kit that is best at stacking vulnerability.

What you get are a lot of misguided, grumpy people that complain about their class being artificially weaker than everyone else because they’re hobbled together into using a kit that everyone hates. I personally have made a point to construct builds that go beyond the grenade kit, and I have a lot of fun on my engineer, but I just can’t say that we’re really as in-demand as other classes are at the moment in any facet of the game—except maybe PvP where our exceptional crowd control actually matters.

Huh? I didn’t report your post. I thought that was obvious given I actually took the time to respond to it. If a post gets deleted, all responses to it get removed as well.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

And that’s literally all there is to it. Trading a huge stack of vuln, which in general is much harder to cap (it’s pretty much impossible to cap it on a boss without a grenade engineer) for a tiny bit of extra might, which is easily capped by many different groups, is a highly situational thing that you should only be doing every once in a while when the situation calls for it.

I think there is a lot to dispute here.

1. Might isn’t “situational.” 25 stacks of might is 875 extra power and condition damage to your group, meaning it’s just as important to hand out as much might as you can as you claim it is to stack vulnerability. Might is a boon. Vulnerability is a condition. No allies in this game are immune to boons, but there are several instances where you are destroying emplacements that are immune to conditions.

2. You’re not capping vulnerability if you’re actively swapping into your bomb kit and elixir gun for might stacking. Obviously one cannot toss grenade volleys and activate Big Ol’ Bomb and Acid Bomb at the same time.

3. Might starvation is actually much more common than vulnerability starvation. Only two classes in the game are good at stacking might: elementalists and engineers. All eight classes in the game have access to vulnerability, and copious amounts of it.

4. There are situations where vulnerability doesn’t even matter. Defending batteries at Tequatl is about knockbacks and snares. Chilled and crippled are OK, but they’re not the optimal skills you should be taking. Skills like Magnet, Overcharged Shot, Big Ol’ Bomb, Glue Bomb, Glue Shot, and Air Blast are the best to use against abominations at East Battery. None of them are on the grenade kit. You continue to examine everything under the lens of DPS, but that just isn’t always the priority, and where kits like the flamethrower and tool kit really begin to shine.

The point is: the grenade kit isn’t best at everything. There are plenty of reasons to integrate other kits into your build, and there’s plenty of content in this game that has absolutely nothing to do with individual vulnerability contributions. I thought such statements would be common sense, yet here you are arguing otherwise.

Err… what? Who said anything about banners?

You’re arguing that the grenade kit is the only viable option we have as engineers, citing elementalists as an example that they can run the staff for max DPS but that the scepter/dagger combo provides more utility that the staff doesn’t: primarily through might stacking.

An engineer can easily construct a build around the bomb kit, taking another blast finisher or the elixir gun over the grenade kit and be more than viable. You came around my build thread not too recently spouting a lot of the same claims you’re tossing around here, largely claiming that the DPS wasn’t competitive. You were proven wrong on this end, falling back only to the fact that the grenade kit stacks better vulnerability. But if the group is reaching 25 vulnerability without the grenade kit, there is no advantage to taking it, meanwhile you have every reason to take the bomb kit: it does more damage, you can stack might with it (which is much harder to come by than vulnerability), and you can stealth skip content with it in conjunction with the Thumper Turret and Elixir S.

I’ve completed nearly every dungeon path in the game with the build while testing it and can safely say that it is equally viable to a grenade-centric build with many advantages the grenade kit doesn’t offer. I’m not a big FOTM runner, but I even dragged myself into FOTM 49 and the build survived just fine. If anything, having the smoke field made the bomb kit a better choice against trash than the grenade kit. I kill Tequatl on a daily basis with my guild, wielding the bomb kit and the elixir gun. I’ve done defense, I’ve done turrets, I’ve done the zerg. I’ve even led several kills with this build. There is not a single situation in PvE where I stop to tell myself that I actually need the grenade kit. With Modified Ammo and Rifle Mod, for the literally three fights in the entire game I have to fight at range, the rifle is more than satisfactory. The only potential exclusion to this is the jellyfish during the underwater fractal, but because you always roll for swamp, you will never see it anymore.

Ultimately speaking, the only reason your grenade kit build can stack might is because it takes the bomb kit. You fail to comprehend that the sword cuts both ways, and that a bomb kit build can easily go without the grenade kit just as much as the grenade kit can go without the bomb kit.

No one would deny that the grenade kit has plenty of advantages offered to it. It has 1500 range, is the best vulnerability stacker, the best bleed stacker, and has access to AoE chilled, blind, and poison. But your accusation that it is the only viable kit for engineers, in any scenario, is completely false. There are quite a number of things that the grenade kit cannot do, where I would be more than happy to slot another utility in favor of it.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I know you were trolling so I chose to ignore it. Just give it up please.

Give up what? You said:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

So how do you stack might with the grenade kit? Because in your mind it’s better than the bomb kit at it. Apparently.

BOB > Fire Bomb > Rifle Turret > Heal Turret > Shield 4 > Detonate x2.

Now it’s your turn to tell me why using grenades somehow invalidates that combo.

Because none of that involves using the grenade kit?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I know you were trolling so I chose to ignore it. Just give it up please.

Give up what? You said:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

So how do you stack might with the grenade kit? Because in your mind it’s better than the bomb kit at it. Apparently.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Rezzet.3614:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Please teach me how to stack might with the grenade kit.

with the summon empowering guardians kit of course!

Do people actually use guardians for Empower? Please.

So are you going to answer my question?

I know a lot of engineers out there still use pistol/shield to gain access to two sigils. In yesterday’s stream they announced that two-handed weapons will now have access to two sigil slots.

Does this revise your opinion of the rifle?

But the very nature of Juggernaut makes the flamethrower a kit, when slotted, something you want to wield most of the time. Most other kits don’t have this issue.

Downed skill #1 also has a unique projectile with the Predator.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Please teach me how to stack might with the grenade kit.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Most of our finishers are used cross-kit. If I’m in trouble in PvP/WvW and need to blast my smoke bomb, you’d better bet I’m using Magnetic Inversion and Healing Turret, not BoB (or Acid Bomb…lol).

If they’re going to buff a kit, the last thing I’d want them to do is increase dependency on other utilities. If they’re going to buff the flamethrower, they need to make it work more effectively as a standalone kit just as the bomb kit and grenade kit are. Saying you can have a smoke field on the flamethrower without the blast finisher means no one would still use it over the bomb kit (which already offers both).

Wolf.5816:

That’s why after some thought I think adding a 1 second Combo Field:Smoke would actually be a reasonable change to the Flamethrower Kits effectiveness without being over the top.

But how? People keep asking for this, but there’s nothing about the flamethrower that does anything with a smoke field. Smoke fields are best used with projectile finishers for blind stacking or blast finishers for stealth stacking. The flamethrower has neither of these.

If the flamethrower were to receive just one change to be more competitive with other kits, it should be to put a blast finisher onto Flame Blast. Asking for a smoke field doesn’t really make much sense to me.

This is what I’m currently using, primarily wielding the bomb kit and elixir gun: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/86927-building-around-the-bomb-kit/

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Imagine all the cool kitten engies could have if they didn’t exist.

You mean, the other kits we already have access to? If you feel so burdened by the grenade kit that you cannot reasonably wield anything else, that is pathetic. The grenade kit is not the be-all, end-all weapon in the game regardless of what your mythical spreadsheet tells you.

It’s great for vulnerability stacking, but for pretty much anything else the bomb kit, flamethrower, elixir gun, and even the tool kit are superior to it.

Rezzet.3614:

Blind=5s
Cooldown= 20s
180 Radius
acceptable ?

vs

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashing_Blade
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_of_Faith
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ray_of_Judgment
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Flash
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Surge
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterspell<;- is a counter skill as well
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Bullet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige

The thing that balances Smoke Vent in favor of other blind skills is that it can be activated while you’re stunned, knocked down, or dazed. It can also be activated while other skills are being channeled, like stomps. If I had to compare Smoke Vent to a guardian’s Leap of Faith or Flashing Blade, I’d take Smoke Vent.

And what is with the obsession over a smoke field? What are you going to use it with? Flame Jet isn’t a projectile finisher, so you’re not going to make much use of its blind mechanic as a smoke field. And smoke fields are relatively poor methods to stacking stealth mid-combat, as any blast finisher that hits a target will reveal you. I just don’t really get why a smoke field would make this skill better.

It definitely works. Try carrying the orb in Spirit Watch with it. One of the best utilities for that map (if bunker, of course).

ArrDee.2573:

edit: i just want to point out that my 0/30/0/25/15 FT build with the same gear and under the same conditions plus discipline does this over 5 seconds:

7000 auto damage x 2 flame jets every 5 seconds + 10000 flame blast + 2500 burns + 2000 bleeds = 28500. 28500/5 = 5700 dps. everybody hates on ft but it does just about the same as zerk grenades except a. it looks cooler b. don’t have to mash 1 and c. i get to see big numbers instead of a lot of little 1-2k damage blips.

That’s a really interesting trait allocation. I thought 20/30/0/20/0 would be better and wrote up a DPS variant for it after Dec 10, but I may have to give this a try some time. If I can peel myself away from the bomb kit long enough.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’ve also run in organized groups and with full buffs I typically hit between 2 to 2.5k per regular grenade and around 3.5k per Shrapnel.

Full buffs is not the same as personal DPS.

You can’t just assume that you’re always going to have Frost Spirit, Banner of Discipline, and Banner of Strength around. If you want to have a meaningful discussion about kit damage and their calculated damage, they have to be structured around base damage. Without might. Without vulnerability. Just traits, power, and weapon strength. Discussions of crits don’t matter, because they’re just multiplicative of your base damage.

We just can’t have a meaningful discussion if you continue to situate context around your damage calculations. I also think it’s time we stop debating in spreadsheets and get to the heart of the matter: screenshot this damage output. Show us a video. Something. Evidence would be nice.

If you can so easily reach this damage output on a regular basis, it shouldn’t be that hard to replicate.

30 Explosives + 30 Firearms is what you should aim for in a PvE build these days. This gives you access to fully buff out either the bomb kit or grenade kit while also taking Modified Ammo for extra damage.

Final 10 points can go in either Alchemy or Tools, depending on how secure you are with your ability to survive.

If you want to run the FT/EG combo, do 20/30/0/20/0, taking Incendiary Powder, Mod Ammo, Jugg, and Deadly Mixture. Rest can be whatever you want.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Probably not. However, turrets were one of the big attractions I had to the class. The idea that I can leave a bunch of automated support drones in hard to reach places to help you fight appeals to me. As well as situated point defense.

Turrets still have a lot of use on my skill bar, though I’m probably not using them properly. The rifle turret is my go-to blast finisher for stacking might. The thumper turret is my go-to for stacking stealth. The healing turret is my healing skill 99% of the time.

That said, I would like to see more incentive to leave them out instead of destroying them. Similar to ranger spirits, we have to offer some kind of buff to our group using them. A simple damage increase isn’t enough—the opportunity cost taking a turret purely to deal some extra damage is just too much.

Instead, they just need to make them provide AoE buffs. Have the thumper turret improve the toughness of nearby allies. Have the healing turret improve boon duration when it is out. Have the rocket/rifle turret improve the power of nearby allies.

It would make engineers more on page with other professions in PvE applying group buffs to each other, and would additionally not break PvP balance too much since they’d still be destroyed very easily.

I think there’s a lot of directions ArenaNet could go with how they’ve designed turrets, but it seems they’re undecided on where to go at the moment.

Keep in mind that the game counts 0 as a second, so you’re really getting 14 seconds when it says 13.

Also it does take time to blast everything, so that time is lost. That’s why detonating turrets is best, because you can fire them all off in a second or two.

Actually, scratch that. I just tested it again.

If the turret is in overcharged state when detonated, it applies both blast finishers.

Try it yourself.

Uhh … yeah. 5 stacks from 5 blast finishers that provide 3 seconds each.

Now it’s true that you will waste a few seconds blasting everything, but that’s inevitable. The best stealth coverage is actually to use Toss Elixir S as your third utility and to drop it when everyone is stacked. As it applies 5 seconds of stealth, it is better than a blast finisher—so you’ll actually see 14/15 seconds left when you start moving as a group.

Toss Elixir S is also affected by Potent Elixirs, in case anyone was curious.

Hm. It seems you’re right about the thumper turret. I’ll fix the rotation accordingly.

You can still get to 15 seconds without it though, since even with the overcharge not working there’s 5 other blast finishers in the rotation (Detonate, Rocket Boots, Rumble, and Big Ol’ Bomb). And this is all, of course, not taking under consideration that there will be other people in your party blasting the smoke field.

Oddly enough, the blast finisher does proc if you pick up the turret while it is overcharged.

OP has been updated with stealth/might stack rotations. You can find them both in part 5.

Enjoy.

That’s a little hyperbolic. Fire Bomb may outperform Flame Jet when it comes to stacking burn on multiple targets, but the flamethrower is still a hell of a lot better at maintaining burning compared to anything on the elixir gun, tool kit, or grenade kit.

You also have to make sure targets sit in your Fire Bomb the entire time. And I would never suggest running the bomb kit against Shoggroth, which is probably the only boss in the entire game where perma-burning actually matters: you’re much too squishy with it.

Besides, the purpose of my post was to address the claim that the flamethrower cannot perma-burn, not that it was the best at it.

Forestnator.6298:

Yes but FT is still useless. They should give back the old juggernaut with perma stability while in FT. Else they can’t bring any sence behind this Kit.

Yeah, that would definitely be nice to have.

I still think that the 200 toughness, the instant-cast knockback, and the AoE blind that can be activated while stunned still makes the flamethrower the best “face-tank” weapon we have. When running Dredge Fractal I usually put it on with the tool kit and Elixir S when you have to stand on the plates.

We’re actually one of the best at it, since we have such powerful defensive skills between the flamethrower and tool kit.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Every profession has one optimal dps build—it’s just not possible to have two optimal dps builds.

Precisely.

And there’s more to this game than just DPS. A guardian doesn’t wield his mace or hammer for maximum DPS. They wield them for their defensive/utilitarian abilities. I think expecting the flamethrower and tool kit to be on par with the grenade kit in damage is delusional, and something I have never asked for or expected.

If you want to maximize your damage as an engineer, you structure a build around the grenade kit or bomb kit just as you would structure your warrior around the axe and greatsword. Sensibly speaking not every kit we have can be DPS-oriented.

The grenade kit gets more mileage than the flamethrower, elixir gun, and tool kit in PvE but that doesn’t mean that anything needs to change.

If the flamethrower did equal damage to the grenade kit, it would be overpowered since it provides 200 passive toughness and self-stacks might doing nothing but wielding it. By design it cannot be equal to the grenade kit in this regard. The same goes for the tool kit, which has the best block skill in the game.

These skills still hold a purpose in PvE. You cannot perma burn Shoggroth with the grenade kit in Arah. You can’t tank a button in Dredge Fractal with the grenade kit. The grenade kit doesn’t give you stealth for skipping content, nor does it grant might for your entire party. It does not cleanse conditions for your allies.

Every kit serves a purpose. The grenade kit’s purpose is damage. It only makes sense that it outperforms most of them in this manner, at least all but the bomb kit. Because if it didn’t, why would you use it?

In PvP there’s more to just dealing damage, and in PvE there’s situations where the grenade kit is hardly the optimal slot choice. Please do not pretend that the grenade kit is the be-all, end-all weapon for engineers. Clearly you’ve put that to mind in this thread, but most responses in this thread better present the reality of the situation.

Not sure what all the debate over perma burning is about. The meta FT build has 20 points into Explosives for Incendiary Powder. Eating Koi Cake with 20 points in Explosives gives you 60% burning duration increase.

60% burn duration increase adds an extra 2.4 seconds to your burn from Incendiary Powder. So you’re essentially burning your target for 6 seconds every 10 seconds. You can fit 4 Flame Jets in 10 seconds that each add a second to your duration.

Congratulations. You’ve now maintained burning doing nothing but spamming Flame Jet.

A lot of people in this thread have clearly not done Arah path 1.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

You can buy exotics for cheap on the AH or trade them in for dungeon markers. The grind/cost for an ascended is nowhere near comparable to an exotic and should bring an equal reward no matter what your profession is.

Be that as it may, if engineer is your main/only character, are you really going to just sit there in exotics? The amount of grind is really beside the point when it’s all you have left to work on, and I think you’re greatly overstating how much effort it takes.

There’s plenty of advantages to go after legendary weapons and ascended gear, largely in part if you like doing FOTM and play your engineer in more than just PvE, and in multiple different situations.

If you don’t want to do it, then don’t do it. But don’t say that we have no reason to go for it just because we happen to wield kits.

What was the incentive for an engineer to craft exotic weapons over keeping rare ones? Why not just run with a masterwork rifle?

There’s best-in-slot gear and then there isn’t. If you want to kitten yourself, fine. But an engineer does use his rifle and pistol, and integrates their skills into a rotation even when wielding kits. At least a good one does.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

What is the incentive for an engineer to craft ascended weapons? 30 more stat points (infusions included)?

Every single slot of gear on my engineer is ascended. Amulet, rings, earrings, backpiece, and—more recently—armor. Infused rings and backpiece. And I have The Predator.

I have 4 other 80s. I play them all frequently, but as someone that plays the engineer most in WvW, it only made sense to put it on my engineer so that I could swap its stats at will. I can go between Sentinel’s and Berserker’s by just double-clicking the weapon. When I go to Tequatl I can swap to Soldier’s. When I’m running Balthazar or Grenth, I can swap to Cleric’s. If I’m running the grenade kit, I can swap to Rampager’s.

I do not regret for a second going for a legendary on my engineer. Every class in this game uses more than one weapon, except I guess elementalist who can get by just going S/D or staff the entire time. So the whole “But kits!” argument really never resonated with me.

I am constantly swapping to my rifle to fire off Blunderbuss and Jump Shot regardless of what build I’m running, largely in part because those two skills are so powerful. And even if I didn’t, I still enjoy the luxury of having an ascended-level weapon given that regardless of what kit I’m wielding I have 10 AR slotted. Gearing up my other 80s by comparison was a much more obnoxious endeavor. I had to make an axe, mace, greatsword, and longbow for my warrior alone.

In some respects we have it easier than others. I couldn’t imagine getting 4 legendaries for a single character, and yet the rifle is all I need for engineer.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Specifically, please nerf grenades. They are ruining the class’s skill diversity because they are literally the only weapon worth using and pretty much all the traits are balanced around them. Bombs, rifles, flamethrowers, etc. are all useless because the traits supporting them are super weak because they have to be, or they end up becoming super OP when used with grenades.

Give me an effing break. The flamethrower may not be the maximum dps setup, but it has a ton of utility in both World vs. World and structured PvP. And it still comes in handy during things like Dredge Fractal and Shoggroth (Arah path 1) where you need to just face tank something, which is not something you can do with the grenade kit.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Pretty much every other weapon has a weak auto-attack with multiple spammable cooldowns (i.e. rifle with 3 burst damage skills, bomb kit with 3 pulsing utility AOEs)

The bomb kit has a better scaling auto attack than the grenade kit does, so I’m not sure how what you’re saying here makes sense either.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Modified Ammo was a good step in this direction (before they made it just another lolgrenade buff) but the boost given was too small.

Modified Ammo was a buff for every kit in this game, including the bomb kit that applies bleeding (Sharpshooter), vulnerability, burning, confusion, blind, crippled, and immobilized—most of which can be maintained integrating the rifle with Sitting Duck in your build.

Aberrant.6749:

I agree about the damage of the weapon not being the end all, but it is something that should be considered.

I did consider it. I actually put a lot of thought in writing that post, so I’m disappointed that you think I’m glossing over the details.

I just don’t think it’s something that you need to be up in arms over. Apparently the devs don’t think so either. It’s a change that should be made in the future, but I’m not going to look the other way when people lie about the real severity of the issue.

Aberrant.6749:

You can make a good ele build without conjured weapons. Can you show me one for Eng without any kits? That’s why I see them as being somewhat similar but different because of the classes.

That’s an entirely separate issue and has nothing to do with the topic here. But even if it did, that’s kind of a weird question. The best engineer builds make use of kits just as much as the best warrior builds make use of banners and the best ranger builds make use of spirits. There’s unequal weight among skill subsets in every single class, and if you want to do nothing but wield a rifle or pistol, you’re probably barking up the wrong tree playing the engineer.

We joke about signet warriors and spirit weapon guardians, but is refusing to use kits any different? You’re handicapping the potential of the class significantly. Even Static Discharge and P/P HGH builds make use of at least one kit.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Phineas Poe.3018:

ellesee.8297:

we definitely need it

How so?

Just FYI here some weapons strength numbers:

asc./leg. greatsword – 1100
exotic greatsword – 1047,5
asc./leg. axe – 1000
exotic axe – 952,5
engi kit – 923,5

Everybody’s damage is increased by 5% with leg./asc. weapons, while 90% of our damage is not. While 5% may not be game breaking, it is an unnecessary and unjustified disadvantage. I want a reward for the time spent in crafting ascended gear.

Unless you want to claim that engineers were OP in damage compared to other classes, before ascended weapons were introduced. In which case you must be asking for a nerf in kit damage as other classes don’t have access to ascended weapons in sPvP.

For kits it’s 969 weapon strength, not 923.

And you can’t make that statement like it’s by itself supposed to mean something. You have to understand that weapon strength is only one part of the equation. The elixir gun and the grenade kit both have equal weapon strength, but look how much damage Fumigate does compared to Shrapnel Grenade. So weapon damage actually matters very little in the grand scheme of things.

The bomb kit may have lower weapon strength than a guardian’s sword, but our auto-attack overall scales significantly better with power (125% every .91 seconds versus 80%/80%/150% every 2.5 seconds). It’s actually the best auto-attack in the game, as it scales so well with power and can also have a radius of 240.

You then have to take into consideration traits that bolster damage and effectiveness of each weapon. The grenade kit self-stacks 25 vulnerability easily, while the bomb kit can be used to stack 12-15 might for your entire group. Between Explosive Powder, Target The Maimed, and Modified Ammo, you’re also looking at a potential 39% damage increase to your attacks.

There’s absolutely nothing stopping the engineer from matching equal output to most if not all dps builds in the game that don’t involve wielding a fiery greatsword. Elementalist beats all in such situations with Fiery Rush (with autotargeting off), but it’s conditional on positioning.

The fiery greatsword is also a bundle, therefore it’s equal to kits in that regard. Do you see elementalists complaining anywhere about this?

Why should we?

ellesee.8297:

we definitely need it

How so?

No, we didn’t. But I don’t think we need it any more than conjured weapons do.

Artaniss.5279:

Thanks for the replies. Can anyone suggest a build to level in PVE and when I decide to PVP a good roaming build. I love solo roaming Thanks…

I’ve been putting together a leveling guide to the engineer. It’s still in a lot of respects a work in progress, but there’s information I think you’ll find useful: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/88640-guide-to-learning-leveling-and-loving-the-engineer/

To answer your original question, I think the engineer is in a very good place. I think the PvP end of things have been reasonably answered, so I guess I’ll elaborate on the PvE side of things.

The “fixing” of most exploits in the dredge fractal has forced players to find new ways to complete it. They made it to where you can no longer simply die on the button and leave it activated, so you need someone who is incredibly tanky. Under the right conditions, engineers can satisfy that role.

And since they’ve toughened up the trash in the fractal, stealth skipping is another popular method to easily completing it. As the engineer is only one of two classes in the game (the other being thief) that have access to smoke fields above water, we provide an integral role to groups.

In world events like Tequatl, the zerg is mostly composed of mesmers, elementalists, warriors, and guardians. But engineers are very sought-after on the defensive end of things, as our numerous crowd control skills make the life of turrets substantially easier. I can single-handedly tie up a champion while the rest of my party focuses on killing it. Though we are not the only class with crowd control skills, I do believe we are among the ones that are the best at it. Having two large immobi fields in both Glue Shot and Glue Bomb, especially in conjunction with Sitting Duck, makes a huge difference in the battery defense phase.

And then there’s always stacking might and vulnerability and stripping conditions off allies that we’ve always been good at. I think the engineer is in a very good place right now. Despite the “nerf” to Invigorating Speed and Incendiary Powder, I’ve never been happier with my build options. The only “con” I can think of at the moment is that it’s just so much harder to play than any of my other characters.

AsmallChicken.9634:

Bomb kit (only the #1) definantly scales better than GK. I would not say the same with FT. Sure the FT #1 scales at 1.5 of your power, however that is over a 2.5 s channel. GK #1 (#2 and 4 scale even better) scales at .33. However since you toss three grenades (bc who seriously used grenades w/o grenadier), if you get all of them to hit you get the full benefit of power out of each toss. Take into account you can toss a little more than 2 grenade volleys per FT 1 channel, and you only really need to hit 4/6 grenades to outdo FT.

I didn’t really have Flame Jet in mind when making that statement. It scales by 150% of your power value, but it has a lengthy case time.

I was talking about Flame Blast. The napalm ball’s damage scales by 75% of your power, but when you detonate it, that explosion scales by 175% of your power.

They’re not screwed up. I just linked the bomb kit allocation as it’s the one I use in most dungeon groups. I’m not going to write up a whole new calculator just to swap out two traits. That’s the purpose of the detailed OP, which you clearly didn’t read.

Besides, there’s nothing random about any traits chosen. 240 radius makes a difference. It allows you to attack bosses effectively outside melee range that would otherwise injure you. A great example of this is Ginva The Butcher in path one of Honor of the Waves. Where guardians and warriors are forced out of melee during his Whirling Defense, I keep bombing away.

It’s also supremely effective in areas like Crucible of Eternity. When fighting the Mark Golem boss, I can stand between him and the protection turret, destroying both. You can, in fact, destroy the cleansing turret too if you stand in the right spot, which helps maintain Modified Ammo buffs.

Unless you can explain to me that there’s a better trait to take to elevate the bomb kit, I don’t see why not to take Short Fuse and Explosive Powder in conjunction with it. And I said in the OP to swap one out for Grenadier if taking the grenade kit. I guess I forgot to say to take Shrapnel over Forceful Explosives too, but that will be added now.

There’s nothing random about choosing Hair Trigger either. Since it takes 1-2 seconds between swapping to your rifle and general skill animation, reducing Net Shot’s cooldown to 8 seconds makes it so that firing off the skill times perfectly with the internal cooldown of Sitting Duck (10 seconds).

Sure, it’s a loss of overall damage going without it. But if burst damage was your objective, I wouldn’t look at condition-based builds or even the grenade kit. I’d look at skills like Flame Blast, Pry Bar, Blunderbuss, and Jump Shot—skills that scale over 150% your power value. The only skill that fits this description on the GK is Shrapnel Grenade, and that requires Grenadier (55% each).

You say you haven’t seen any “serious” builds that use 30 Tools, but with the buff to Armor Mod it’s actually fairly OK. Burst builds on the whole I think are pretty gimmicky regardless of what class you’re playing. Unless you’re a thief, they’re all hotjoin hero builds.

Maiden England.3491:

Ok hear me out bros and girls.
When an engineer wants to use a bursty build, we generally choose 30/30 in the first 2 traitlines. for grenadier and modified ammunition.
That being said, the Critical damage line is all the way down in tools.
So an engineer has to either give up grenade kit (Best kit that scales with power) or give up modified ammunition just to be able to get more crit damage out of the tools tree.

I honestly wouldnt be complaining about this if it were the same for other classes, but its not. Guardian, Warrior, Thief, and Elementalist (the only classes I play other then engi) all have crit damage in the same traitlines used to make bursty builds. Seriously, I’ve yet to see a serious build that goes 30 into tools. Im not sure if this has been mentioned before, but it is a serious drawback to engineers using any kind of bursty power builds.

Mod Ammo would actually be pretty bad for burst builds, as it takes some time to ramp up as you stack conditions. It’s a sustained damage trait.

And the bomb kit and flamethrower both scale with power a lot better than the grenade kit does.

Forestnator.6298:

Anyway it has less to do with teaching, more with carrying people. If you are superior you are also able to carry bad players. This requires much more skill then achiving good results with other good players.

Sorry, but I have my limits.

I do not pug FOTM, but I do not discriminate who I take from my guild. I literally just ask who wants to tag along with me, and I take the first four people to respond in Teamspeak or ‘x’ up in guild. If, during our dungeon run (I usually do SE, HotW, TA, and CoF in one sitting/group; AC and CoE if I have time) someone has to leave, I just repeat the process until it fills. It isn’t pugging random players, but it is still pugging in a lot of respects—just with players I can hold accountable for their actions.

If any of my guildies happen to not know or understand the content, I am more than willing to teach them. I enjoy teaching players content they’re unfamiliar with. It’s half the reason I still play this game. I enjoy the satisfaction of recruiting newer players into the guild—even those that just started the game and in Queensdale—watching them develop into master FOTM runners. So understand me when I say that I am totally on-board with you in relation that the best players are more than willing to sit through sub-optimal groups. But only if it’s to teach someone something.

I made a point to revise the rhetoric of this conversation discussing “experience” versus “inexperience” rather than “good” versus “bad.” A player can still be inexperienced with certain content but be a good learner and listen well. But if a player is refusing to listen, they’re out.

I just have zero patience for players who are unwilling to learn the content. As someone who works as a teacher for a living, I have no remorse flunking students who do not put in the effort. I used to feel bad about it, but sometimes people need to learn to help themselves.