Guild Wars 2

lunyboy.8672:

Be sure and don’t show your math. Feel free to call me rude if that makes you feel better, that does nothing to further your argument.

…Show my math? What is this, arithmetic? Play the game, dude. I explain point by point how to emulate what I say you can get out of the Flamethrower or the Bomb Kit. Use that information how you please. Even if that means being smug and calling me misguided.

And just to set things straight: my argument was never that you hit 8K in all dungeons.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The Engineer doesn’t match the Lightning Hammer, but that doesn’t make it “bad.” I can’t imagine anyone who actually has experience running a 25/25/0/0/20 Bomb Kit build in CoF with 8K+ auto-attacks would even remotely think that our DPS output is in question when it counts.

lunyboy.8672:

I’ve read it, and the results are not repeatable most dungeons

Is this real life?

Obviously you’re not going to hit for 8K in most dungeons. That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the kit so much as that running a dungeon like Ascalon Catacombs explorable maxes you out with the stats of someone at level 35.

And you call me misguided. Wow.

lunyboy.8672:

But to be frank, your claiming that the Flamethrower is good for anything other than a torch for dark jumping puzzles or a utility kit that helps you die from retaliation is misguided at best, and leads me to take the rest of your comments with a very large grain of salt.

Well that was rude.

lunyboy.8672:

I have 2k hours on my engineer, and run with Infamous.

Cool story, bro?

lunyboy.8672:

This guy’s got it right. Just because an engineer CAN do all those things across various builds and skills, doesn’t mean he can do that and output those mystical 8k auto attacks from the bomb kit.

Believe me. I’ve tried.

I can do all of these things with one build. It only takes swapping out a couple utilities for a certain situation. I hope you don’t take this too personally, but just because you can’t do something, that doesn’t mean others can’t either.

I’ve written two guides to how I play my Engineer and get the results exactly to what I claim the Flamethrower and the Bomb Kit can do. I think I’ve been pretty transparent about this.

And with a pure glass cannon, full Zerker setup, you can get 8K auto-attacks. There’s nothing mythical about it. Rozbuska wrote a thread about it, even though the setup has been around quite a long time.

Redball.7236:

25 vuln can be achieved as a sum of the entire party

I think this could be said in direct response to what you just wrote. Who cares if S/D Elementalists can stack 25 Might by themselves? There’s 5 people to a party. The specificity of roles is absolutely not necessary.

Redball.7236:

Plus while all of these things might be accessible in one build, you certainly can’t do it at once.

The same could be said of any class. The point is that the Engineer has the potential to fill whatever hole you have in your group so that you can bolster the “sum” of efforts across your party.

Redball.7236:

If you want to stack might you have to carry out an awkward combo, during which you aren’t dpsing.

Is it awkward? Acid Bomb is an integral blast finisher to my Might stacking rotation for both the Flamethrower and the Bomb Kit. It does tens of thousands of damage. I am most certainly DPSing with my Might rotation, as last I checked Throw Mine, Big Ol’ Bomb, Fire Bomb, and Supply Crate all contribute to dealing damage. The only ones that don’t are Magnetic Inversion and Healing Turret, which I usually save for other things like healing myself or Area Stealth when I pull aggro.

Redball.7236:

If you want reflects, you’re probably going to have to drop a blast finisher in order to get elixir U.

Again, couldn’t the same be said of other classes? A Guardian has to drop a utility for Wall of Reflection. I am constantly swapping utilities on him, and my Warrior. That’s just being smart.

Redball.7236:

Engineer is versatile yeah but I wouldn’t say they outshine other classes in each specific area, just that they can do all of them.

That is what “versatile” means.

Phineas Poe.3018:

So if FT users have room to take it, and if GK/BK Engis have the wiggle room of 30 Explosives to take it, then what is everyone crying about? You don’t need Speedy Kits to get permanent Vigor, and you don’t even need it any more (a la Power Shoes) to get around quickly on the map.

And perhaps the craziest part about all of this is that with 20 points in Explosives, Firearms, and Alchemy, you still have room to take Modified Ammunition that can give up to a 24% damage increase to your Flamethrower (or Elixir Gun). There are 12 conditions out there. +2% each. It’s about to get cray-cray.

And you still have room for Infused Precision and Invigorating Speed, still giving you permanent Vigor.

So I ask again: what is the issue here? We are about to get a gigantic boost in damage, which is the one thing the Flamethrower has always needed.

Yes I just quoted myself.

coglin.1867:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I think you all need to stop pigeonholing trait changes and look at things on the whole. 20/30/0/20/0 might be the most powerful FT build we’ve ever had the chance of using—and we still have Incendiary Powder.

The problem with IP though, is that when you use it to supplement damage, it becomes near useless anytime others using abilities that burn. Of coarse that is an issue with conditions and not the trait by design, but it can oviously negate the benfits of the trait just the same.

Well you take it because you don’t have other abilities that burn. Flamethrower Engineers have a lot of options in front of them, but very few of them are ideal for PvE.

Blowtorch is a fantastic skill in sPvP. I generally prefer running dual pistols over the shield in the Mists. But in PvE, Blast finishers are too useful.

Rocket Kick is another good, lengthy burn. Rocket Boots are a great skill in and of itself (themselves?) but it’s not sustainable. Even with Incendiary Ammo and Rocket Kick, you need a ton of points in Tools to make Rocket Kick viable. That’s why I rewrote my guide to the FT/EG combo utilizing 25 points in Tools. Without that, Rocket Kick is not nearly as attractive.

Look at Incendiary Powder though. You may say that it moving up the tree is a nerf, but I think a lot of FT users are failing to understand that “making” you take another 10 points into Explosives gives you 100 additional Power and 10% additional Condition Duration. There’s absolutely nothing stopping you from taking it either. Juggernaut is a Master tier trait. Deadly Mixture is a Master tier trait. You have the points to take it, so who exactly is hurting from this?

• Grenade Kit Engis seem pretty much obsessed with Shrapnel at this point. I’ve already had that discussion with them, and I was laughed out of the thread when I tried to argue that IP is superior. Now it gets “nerfed” and everyone complains? Makes no sense to me. Where were these people back then?

• Bomb Kit Engis take Forceful Explosives. Even after the buff, it’s still the ideal trait to take. You still have room for IP as your Master trait, and then you choose (the nerve!) between Short Fuse and Explosive Powder. But the funny thing is that this choice is almost always obvious.

• Here’s why: As a bomber you don’t even need Short Fuse in PvE because taking the time to drop anything other than your auto-attack or Fire Bomb is actually a DPS loss outside of stacking Vulnerability. And you don’t really need Explosive Powder in sPvP/WvW because Engis don’t even take the Bomb Kit for Power builds. They take it for Fire/Smoke/Concussion Bomb.

So if FT users have room to take it, and if GK/BK Engis have the wiggle room of 30 Explosives to take it, then what is everyone crying about? You don’t need Speedy Kits to get permanent Vigor, and you don’t even need it any more (a la Power Shoes) to get around quickly on the map.

pheroth.5306:

You are still losing a trait for Infused Precision though, no? Probably replacing Stabilized Armor/Cloaking Device/Whatever.

I don’t take Infused Precision or Invigorating Speed in WvW. That’s purely a PvE thing for me in dungeons.

I think you’re significantly more survivable taking Protective Shield and Protection Injection, especially since there’s so much AoE Vigor out there in WvW. What kills me most when roaming/zerging is getting knocked down and crushed, not running out of Endurance.

In PvE, knockdowns are a lot more uncommon though (and Warhorn Warriors), which is why Vigor is so much more crucial.

coglin.1867:

Okay, this lost me. I just got to ask. What was said, mentioned, or released, that gave you even the slightest inclination that there would be even the slightest nerf to swiftness or movement speed to engineers in any way, shape, or form??

Slow your roll. I never suggested anything about Swiftness accessibility being nerfed. But with the proposed change to Modified Ammunition, 30 Firearms gives you little room to sink points elsewhere. Especially if you’re running the Bomb Kit and taking 25+ points into Explosives.

What results is Bomb Kit users going either 25/30/0/15/0 (to take the new Transmute) or 30/30/0/10/0. I value Vigor a lot more than out of combat Swiftness, so Runes of the Traveler will be my way of getting around quickly in the open world. I’ve already tossed 6 of them onto my Celestial gear (which I usually run with doing open world content) and the 7th on my rebreather for when I’m underwater.

My Flamethrower build will probably go a similar route, something along the lines of 20/30/0/20/0. I don’t yet know how I’ll fit Infused Precision in with Fireforged Trigger, Juggernaut, and Modified Ammo, but the fact of the matter is that Speedy Kits is just not all that useful anymore outside of WvW if this change goes live (and I think it will). Such a statement might sound negative, but I do like the idea of taking my Engineer down lines I otherwise wouldn’t. It encourages diversity, and breathes new life into the game. Fact of the matter is that Speedy Kits + Invigorating Speed is a crutch we’ve relied on, similar to Kit Refinement. They’re taking the crutches away and people are upset. I get that.

But I think you all need to stop pigeonholing trait changes and look at things on the whole. 20/30/0/20/0 might be the most powerful FT build we’ve ever had the chance of using—and we still have Incendiary Powder. If you can see the forest for the trees, you’ll see that on the whole we’re getting some pretty significant boosts that speak clearly to the health of the class in the foreseeable future.

Or maybe it’s just me.

Actually, that Power Shoes change is huge. 25% Movement Speed bonus all the time will be a huge change to how I construct my build in WvW. Instead of running 30/0/10/20/10 I’ll be able to go a full 20 into Inventions, increasing my survivability even further.

Won’t help much on the PvE side of things, though I’ve already burned the gold buying 7 Runes of the Traveler in anticipation for this nerf regardless.

As for Blunderbuss: meh. I don’t really use the Rifle anymore outside of Jumping Puzzles. Magnetic Inversion is just too good of a Blast finisher, and Leap finishers are selfish heals when used in Water fields. Overcharged Shot is a nice snare remover, but I already run Rocket Boots.

I’m sure if you even sat down and calculated the damage of Blunderbuss versus staying in the Bomb Kit and auto-attacking, it’d either cancel out or go in favor of bombs.

titanlectro.5029:

Every time I try to go back to my Engi, this is what stops me (that and the hobosacks).

Ele with nothing but ether renewal > Engi built specifically for condition removal.

Such a good healing skill. But Ether Renewal is so easily interrupted in PvP/WvW.

Lheimroo.2947:

And elixir gun.. nobody goes to elixir gun for the damage.

Acid Bomb is so good, though.

spoj.9672:

Because the only reason you could possibly still be argueing is because you think im wrong? Which means you arent happy with how im ranking engi? Either that or you’re just argueing for the sake of keeping the thread going.

So anyone who disagrees with you is “biased?”

Sounds legit.

spoj.9672:

I didnt say you shouldnt play engi seriously. I wouldnt even say that about necro. What I meant is if I was to run some dungeons and we felt like doing them smoothly and efficiently, necro and engi would be last choices because they are not as useful as other classes (going back to the original point of the thread).

And I disagree entirely. For reasons already established. The Engineer offers all the things you look for in a party member in a group. Everything. Might. Vulnerability. Condition removal. Stealth. Projectile walls. Group Stability. You even agreed with me on this point.

spoj.9672:

im perfectly fine with taking an engi in a fast run

Then this conversation is over and there is no reason for this thread or the elitism that props up its perpetuity.

Have a good night.

spoj.9672:

We never said you cant take an engi for a fast run.

No, but you said we “shouldn’t.”

spoj.9672:

Im ranking them as whats good in organised groups in semi serious runs. You wouldnt take an engi or necro in those types of runs so they are bottom tier.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you very clearly relegate Engineer here to being a class you shouldn’t play “seriously.”

spoj.9672:

Ps. You’ve gone back to proving me right about being biased towards your class.

How is saying “everyone is replaceable” and “no one matters” make me biased toward “my” class?

Again, Engineer is NOT the only class I play. Please get this through your head.

hybrid.5027:

Doing a 3-4 hour dungeon tour versus an 8 hour dungeon tour seems like a pretty good incentive to me.

There’s a very big difference between wanting to complete something in a reasonable time frame versus focusing around “record kills.”

You can complete most quick dungeon paths (i.e., CoF p1/2, SE p1, HotW p1, etc.) in a reasonable time frame with any group composition so long as players are competent with the class they are playing. My guild runs groups like this every single day. We don’t discriminate over what class you take. Because if it takes you longer than 8 minutes to finish CoF p1, the problem isn’t what class they’re playing but what gear they’re wearing.

I don’t define “usefulness” by how quickly one completes a dungeon.

Record attempts are not the concern of most players who are primarily concerned with completing content, especially when there is zero incentive behind how quickly you complete it.

Most builds with Berserker gear don’t take very many hits. Even Warriors with 20k HP have to be careful.

That’s why Vigor is so important. Dodge the big hits and utilize Smoke Bomb, Static Shot, Smoke Vent, etc. etc.

I would, actually.

My guildmates don’t suffer for it.

spoj.9672:

Well thats where you’re wrong. My best class is necro, i probably play it better than 95% of necros in pve and its a class i can play a lot more comfortably. But im much more useful as a warrior/mesmer/guardian/thief/ele…. You get the idea.

But there are different ways of being “useful,” which is precisely why I don’t like the argument a lot of you are making. It’s not about what one person does. It’s about whether the group on the whole can fill out the 6-7 “ideals” you want in a group.

Fact of the matter is, you can reach that with more than just Guardians, Warriors, and Mesmers.

Sorry you feel that way about your Necro, but I never turn them away or ever feel like they’re a negative detriment to my group. And I doubt I’m the only one.

Yes they work.

I suggest Strength + Night if you’re wielding Pistol/Shield in dungeons.

spoj.9672:

8k+ damage on an auto attack that takes around about 1 second to cast is not good dps.

Then apparently the Lightning Hammer isn’t good DPS either.

spoj.9672:

One of the tradeoffs is bad dps

This is so false. Look at the base Power coefficients for the Bomb Kit’s auto-attack. Look at Shrapnel Grenade and Freeze Grenade. Look at Blunderbuss and Jump Shot. Look at Pry Bar and Flame Blast.

It’s bad enough that you’ve already admitted to having really poor understanding the Engineer (and Ranger), relying on the words of others in this thread to generate your opinion of us. And this is probably the worst thing you keep parroting without personal experience.

The Engineer doesn’t match the Lightning Hammer, but that doesn’t make it “bad.” I can’t imagine anyone who actually has experience running a 25/25/0/0/20 Bomb Kit build in CoF with 8K+ auto-attacks would even remotely think that our DPS output is in question when it counts.

spoj.9672:

another is poor reflect uptime/reliability. Another tradeoff is that the smokefield on engi is half the duration of smokescreen and thief can do smokescreen and shadow refuge for stealth.

I don’t understand why the Smoke field duration matters? It’s the blast finishers that proc the stealth, not the field itself. Smoke Bomb lasts 4 seconds long, which is more than plenty time to fit all your blast finishers in.

spoj.9672:

The might stacking can be done by almost any group composition aslong as one fire field is provided (warriors, eles, guardians and rangers can all do that). Eles are even better at might stacking than engis.

You’re just being biased.

I am not denying the potential that everything the Engineer can do is replaceable with other classes. I’d argue that everything any class can do is ultimately replaceable. I’ve run every dungeon in this game dozens of times, every time with a different group composition. Sometimes my Warrior was the only heavy armored class in the group. Sometimes there was no Mesmer. Sometimes there were no Warriors.

Every class is replaceable.

It’s part of the genius behind how ArenaNet developed this game and created the content, but you don’t need anyone for anything in dungeons or in fractals. People just get comfortable with the setup that has worked for them. And you can argue that Spotter or Banner of Discipline are unique offerings by Rangers or Warriors, but not having Banner of Discipline does not make or break a dungeon run. It just doesn’t. Sorry. It doesn’t. And many times I’ll be edgy and play my Warrior without taking it! Oh, man. How the sky fell that day.

The point is that having an Engineer in your group fills whatever gap your group doesn’t have. By having an Engineer in your group, you know Might will be available. You know that there will be condition removal and Area Healing. You know that if you need to skip content you’ll get a good duration stealth. And you know that Vulnerability with a 25-30 Explosives Engineer is not an issue.

If you want to sit there and whittle down each class to what it’s best at and pray for that combination, that’s your call. I’d rather just run dungeons on my Engineer and seriously not give a flying eff what the other 4 people in my party are, because I’ve done every dungeon with everything. I consider that a significant advantage to playing the class. It’s your choice to devalue it, but that doesn’t make me biased.

My final two cents on this. I don’t think my point will get across any further than it already has. Which is to say—unfortunately to say—probably not at all.

DesertRose.2031:

Nobody argues that an Engineer won’t be useful to a party; the point is that, given you have the choice between every profession, you would hardly ever pick an Engineer. That’s why people rank Engineer very low on a dungeon usefulness list.

Please show me how many classes actually contribute to #1-6 as I listed equally as well as an Engineer can.

Please show me how many classes can give 15 stacks of Might, 15 seconds of Stealth, a ton of Vulnerability, condition removal, and a Water field all under one build.

I just can’t fathom how you can establish that Engineers do in one slot what it takes 2-3 classes to achieve and say we’re at the bottom of the totem pole. That just makes absolutely zero sense to me.

You guys obsess over what the ideal setup is when you fail to recognize that taking an Engineer fills any hole in the group regardless of what the other 4 players build themselves around. I consider that the ideal class to play. But I guess I’m alone in that.

Just wanted to comment on a few things.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

1) ele if using fiery rush from FGS #4 without a target and FGS#3 plus LH when on cooldown they will likely be the highest dps in your party by quite a margin, not to mention their ability to stack 25 might for the group and perma fury I think they deserve #1or 2 spot.

Don’t forget to mention that Staff Elementalists have probably the best fire field right now with Lava Font taking Persistent Flames. They are definitely the best when it comes to stacking Might right now.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

2) warrior brings quite a lot of utility to the group actually using GS,A/M banners and able to stack somewhere between 18-22stacks of vulnerability on their own for a short time, also able to create fire fields(wouldn’t suggest it but still there and able to blast them), also if using soldier runes can cleanse about the same number of conditions as the engineer (with a different build from the one above that would be using banners and “on my mark”) also can take trait empower allies for more power for the group

Warriors cannot cleanse as many conditions as Engineers can. With any build. Fumigate removes up to 5 conditions on allies you hit with it. With Fireforged Trigger, it has a 10 second cooldown. Nothing a Warrior has can match that frequency, and that’s not taking Super Elixir or the Healing Turret yet into the equation.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

3) I feel that you are selling rangers a bit short as they can provide ok vunerability, stone spirit for protection, frost spirit for extra damage, spirit of nature for a group res, and I believe the longest lasting water field through their healing spring, and condition cleanse, they can also bring might and fury stacking to the party through their pets and warhorn.

Don’t forget Spotter. Re: Healing Spring, it’s very good. But the problem is that Rangers have like 2 Blast finishers across the entire class—one of which is on a specific pet.

What then results is a situation in which no one has their blast finishers available because they used them all to stack Might for the group. It’s a really great skill in WvW, and on paper it’s fantastic in PvE—but actual application varies in effectiveness within dungeons.

spoj.9672:

Im honestly baffled why you people get so defensive. I wasnt rude at all and I re-read my post and I cant work out what you found rude.

You said “people defend their class blindly with very little knowledge of pve mechanics and understanding of the other classes.”

I guess I misinterpreted what you said and should have seen it as, I don’t know, a compliment?

I don’t have any issues using the Bomb Kit in WvW zergs without Stability.

I do like your idea about changing Juggernaut, but I think that’d be hard to implement.

spoj.9672:

Yes engineer can contribute to all points you mention but they have pretty weak dps compared to other classes and have to maybe sacrifice a bit more to provide those things.

And again you go back to the numbers. The purpose of my post has seem to gone completely over your head.

spoj.9672:

If you really need stealth take a thief or just use mesmer stealth. Thief has very good damage so its not a loss, mesmer can cover reflects and condi removal so the bad dmg isnt much of an issue.

But I’m not a Thief or Mesmer, and no one in my guild looking to complete a dungeon at the moment is a Thief or a Mesmer. What do I do then? Do we just sit around and wait for one to get online? Are you one of those guys who will only do Fractal 48 with two Guardians because you read a post somewhere on Guru or here saying it’s the only way to play? Because that’s exactly what you’re doing here.

You go with what you can get. And the truth of the matter is that the Engineer offers all you need when it comes to stealth with a Smoke field and 5 Blast finishers.

spoj.9672:

Engi cant perma reflect like a mesmer and theoretically mesmer can do alot more dps than any other class if all phantasms stay alive.

You’re talking about two entirely different builds.

spoj.9672:

Its the same issue with necro aswell. Points 3-6 can be covered by and engi reasonably well and points 2 and 4 can be covered by necro pretty well. But that doesnt mean they arent the bottom 2 classes. Why take a sub par choice when you can get all 6 points covered with better dps/group dps and better access to that utility? The real kings of pve and ele’s. You have 5 spaces in a group so why take a class with low dps that can cover most of the utility on its own but less reliably, when you can take 2-3 classes that do more dps and cover the same stuff better?

You say this like the perfectly constructed dungeon group is always on the table. Like you’ll sit there and wait for hours to fill up your SE p2 or Arah p4 run waiting for just the right group to come around.

Sorry, but I don’t buy it. You take the first 5 people to respond to your invitation. And the truth of the matter is that taking an Engineer really solves a lot of problems that other classes outright fail to cover. You agree with me that an Engineer can provide all six necessary things to complete a dungeon in one build and yet you still argue that they’re “sub par.” Sorry, but this just doesn’t make sense to me.

Not every dungeon group you participate in is going to be constructed in the way where 1-6 is covered. Having an Engineer covers them.

spoj.9672:

People defend their class blindly with very little knowledge of pve mechanics and understanding of the other classes. There is nothing wrong with admitting your favourite class is bad for a certain gametype. Heck if you dont then it will never get fixed.

Don’t be rude.

Engineer is not the only class I play. I have an 80 Warrior and an 80 Guardian, and am currently working on maxing out an Elementalist. Both my Warrior and Guardian are outfitted in Berserker/Scholar gear, so I can very easily see how their DPS compares to the Engineer’s.

I’m not defending the Engineer out of favoritism. I’m defending the Engineer because I think you’re wrong.

Saki Asakura.6479:

So, from a FT engi’s perspective, the change to IP is huge.

The Flamethrower doesn’t need Incendiary Powder. I dropped it out of my build months ago and I dish out a lot more damage than I ever did with 10 points in Explosives.

Use Incendiary Ammo properly. Equip the off-hand Pistol for Blowtorch. Use Rocket Kick on Rocket Boots. Eat Koi Cakes/Rare Veggie Pizza. We have more than plenty access to burning, and in group situations we are rarely the only ones applying it. You do not need Incendiary Powder.

Terrahero.9358:

Such excuses would explain small variences. But not why there is more then 2 warriors for every 1 engineer.

Would it?

Mesmers are considered by many one of the top-3 professions of PvE. They’re heavily sought after in WvW. And they’ve always been a part of the meta in sPvP. Guess what?

They share 10% of the population, equal to Engineers.

Terrahero.9358:

The community at large is fully aware about the high-effort/low-reward style of Engineers.

I’m not. Care to explain?

Terrahero.9358:

Engineers are neither dominant in pvp nor in wvw.

Then why are they so popular in top-tier tPvP?

I think the proposed Transmute change will fix a lot of this (100% chance to convert).

Terrahero.9358:

And i assume you base this on how absolutely dominant engineers currently are in virtually every game mode, right?
Which is also why we see so many Engineers, easily the most played profession.

This is a really poor argument. There are fewer Engineers than Warriors because Engineers are a harder class to play, aren’t a legacy class from GW1, and are less aesthetically appealing to the average player. Rangers are one of the most created classes, and they’ve historically been one of the worst classes in every game type.

Population has little to do with actual balance.

And I would argue that Engineers are dominant in PvP and WvW. People just don’t know how to construct the right builds for these game types.

Ostricheggs.3742:

AGAIN, invigorating speed is TOO STRONG.

Is it?

I don’t believe the problem is Invigorating Speed. I believe the problem is that Engineers have ready access to Swiftness when swapping kits, which procs Invigorating Speed. Obviously they have no problem with how Vigor on-crit works, because (1) you have to actually be in combat and (2) it requires you to be attacking.

With Speedy Kits, Engineers literally have permanent Vigor. All the time. Inside and outside of combat. Now we’re on level with other classes who have to actually hit stuff to get it “permanently.”

Just taking a moment to re-read this entire thread, I think a lot of you need to stop thinking numerically and begin thinking conceptually. You guys toss out a bunch of numbers comparing DPS roles amongst all classes. Lost in all this noise, however, is that you need to have your party constructed a certain way to get that kind of output.

There are six things you ideally want access to in group situations:

1. Area Might
2. Vulnerability
3. Projectile walls/reflects
4. Condition removal
5. Stability
6. Area Stealth (for skipping)

You guys are very much focused on #1 and #2. And for good reason. 25 Vuln/25 Might is what makes a good group a great group. But 25 Vuln and 25 Might against Fire Shaman alone doesn’t make a good fractal group.

You guys are forgetting about #3-6—all of which Engineers can offer, including both #1 and #2. How many classes can actually say that? Where are the Warrior Smoke fields? Can they match the condition removal abilities of Engineers? What about Area Healing? Where are the Water fields in the Axe/Mace + Greatsword combo? Where is their AoE projectile wall? You want to compare Engineers purely on the basis of #1 and #2 and claim that Warriors outperform us, but the fact of the matter is that they very much need the help of #3-6 to stay alive and successfully complete/skip content in dungeons and fractals.

So if you want to talk about dungeon usefulness in Guild Wars 2, talk about dungeon usefulness. Talk about how a 30 Alchemy Engineer matches the Stability management of Stand Your Ground with Toss Elixir B. Talk about how a Bomb Kit Engineer filling their bar with Blast finishers offers significantly more AoE stealth than Mass Invisibility—and on a third of the cooldown!

Talk about how our Elixir Gun, when built around it, can cleanse—on average—1 condition every 2 seconds. If you want to judge the Engineer’s strengths purely on the merits of its damage output, then keep doing it.

Just understand that you’re doing yourself and this community a disservice, because you guys are looking at this completely wrong. Mesmers and Guardians are not a part of the meta because of #1 or #2. Surely they contribute, but they are popular because of their usefulness in #3-6. And any group that has all six of these “ideal” contributions amongst all five members of the group will—if played by satisfactory players—will cruise through PvE content. The individual DPS contributions of each party member are pretty irrelevant at that point. But hey, if you want to argue over who does 10K damage and who does 9K, be my guest.

Just my two cents.

JonPeters.5630:

Master tier traits
Some good suggestions on builds that might open up if we improve some of the master tier traits would be good to see. Here is a pretty decent list of master tier traits that I still find underwhelming.

Explosive Powder, Enhance Performance, Power Showes, Elite Supplies, Deadly Mixture, Potent Elixirs, Packaged Stimulents, Power Wrench, Leg Mods.

Keep the discussion going and let’s see if we can find some room in those traits to bring those trait lines some more into play.

We won’t be able to address all of the concerns, but we will address the most pressing if we can.

Thanks,

Jon

Jon, I can’t speak for most traits you’ve mentioned here, but I can say that something should be done re: Deadly Mixture.

I think it’s a serious issue that the second-most important trait for Flamethrower Engineers is in the Alchemy tree. Move it to Firearms, thereby bolstering the strength of that tree overall and simultaneously elevating the damage potential of the Flamethrower allowing us to put those 20 points elsewhere (i.e., Explosives).

And though I know this balance patch is mostly related to traits … Really, Flame Jet could use some tweaks. But the issue of its low coefficient compared to other auto-attacks is severely compounded by the fact that Flamethrower Engineers are required to sink 20 points into Alchemy to get the most out of the kit. Is this really ideal? Moving Deadly Mixture to Firearms would go a long way in improving the kit’s damage output.

Hell, maybe even look at doing something like merging Deadly Mixture and Juggernaut together, or merging Deadly Mixture with Fireforged Trigger as a 20% damage increase, 20% skill reduction trait similarly seen with other classes.

And while I may (or may not) have your attention, I really want you guys to re-evaluate how you want Juggernaut to work. For one thing, the passive Might was a good idea. I think it’s a nice damage increase. But now most dungeon groups already know how to hit 25 Vuln 25 Might, and all that passive Might I get from Juggernaut actually does no help for me in elevating the kit’s damage. It’s wasted! Please do something about this.

I hope you take these issues under consideration, because I love the FT/EG combo and is, I think, the purest form of where you’re trying to get the Engineer to be as a jack-of-all-trades.

Just my two cents. All the best.

DesertRose.2031:

Infused Precision is only better if you have not a single kit equipped.

If you’re constantly swapping to the Grenade Kit to use Shrapnel Grenade every 5 seconds, it’s a good choice. And I like it with the FT/EG combo because Flame Jet is a long enough channel to swap to the Elixir Gun and swap back to it without killing your auto-attack.

But when I’m just running the Bomb Kit, either by itself with elixirs/gadgets or with the Tool Kit or Elixir Gun, I don’t really much see the advantage when I’m swapping in and out of it every 5 seconds and ruining my auto-attack.

Iddiozzia.3489:

I fail to see the point of modified ammo since the only kits that could effectively use a that kind of damage increase are bombs and greandes

Keep in mind that the damage increase is not dependent on solely your conditions that you inflict on targets.

Also, I don’t get these posts. 25 Firearms is superior to 25 Tools the moment you dodge roll. And now putting another 5 points into the tree makes it better all the time. Yet people are still finding reason to complain.

Okay.

There are 12 conditions in this game. 2% each really stacks up a lot. Using Box of Nails alone will result in a 4% increase in your bomb damage. That’s incredible, and really diversifies how our kits can combo with each other.

Or you guys can sit there and devalue it. I guess that’s your call.

Not saying it’s supposed to satisfy their claim, but we still have permanent Vigor. In many cases Infused Precision is actually the better trait.

At least we still have Infused Precision for perma Vigor.

SynfulChaot.3169:

For damage, of course, you always want the highest output you can survive with. This isn’t my first 80, after all. S’my eighth. My main is a glassy ranger.

As for comfort level? That isn’t my concern. Mine is for maximal effectiveness. I run my mesmer with zerker/knights as the knights adds toughness that is shared with my phantasms. I know that some mix assassin with zerker to raise the prec a bit for more reliable crits. I was solely curious if there was particular need or use for the hybrid statting for engies as there may be for other classes.

I meant no offense.

SynfulChaot.3169:

For weapon, I’d really prefer the rifle. It is far more enjoyable for me to use. While pistols are great and all, the rifle is a pure joy for me to use. S’honestly the biggest reason I do play my engy. For that rifle. So that would leave the survivability skills to kits and utilities.

With bombs, it seems, you tend to run two kits. How is it that you deal with stuns/CC and conditions?

Healing Mist (Elixir Gun) is a stunbreaker.

SynfulChaot.3169:

So power then. Gotcha. I often run my damage sets with some knights, valkyrie, or assassin pieces to emphasize a stat or to add it a small modicum of survivability. Would a mix potentially be better or is straight up pure zerker the preferred?

Here’s a rule of thumb which is relevant to every class: take as much damage gear as you can survive with.

If you feel uncomfortable with full Berserker, go 3/3 with Knight. Or wear full Knight armor with Berserker weapons and jewelry. Mix it up to whatever you feel most comfortable with. As you get more used to the build and knowing what to dodge and knowing when to Smoke Bomb in boss fights, start slotting in more Berserker gear.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Hmm. For bombs, though, I would think that you’d need a touch more survivability than pure zerker as you’d be forced into melee the entire time and engies don’t seem to have the damage mitigation of the other classes.

It’s good enough. I’ve run most dungeon paths with the Bomb Kit now and have fared just fine. A lot of it as about simply knowing the content more than what range you’re standing from … though it does help having spent the past 13 months running the Flamethrower from 425 range when farming dungeons.

If you’re really that concerned about survivability, drop the Elixir Gun for the Tool Kit. Pry Bar doesn’t deal as much damage as Acid Bomb does, but Gear Shield is one of the best block skills in the game. And you also have Static Shield.

We don’t have as many blocks as Guardians or as much health as Warriors, but we have our ways. Remember that stealth is a very powerful de-aggro, and that Smoke Bomb can function beyond simply blinding targets as a stealth field.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Do ’nades work best with power or with condi? Or a hybrid?

Both. Shrapnel Grenade contributes a lot of bleeding damage. If you’re looking for just one set of armor for your Engineer, though, I think you should stick with Berserker.

SynfulChaot.3169:

How do bombs fare in dungeons? More powerful or less powerful, damage-wise, than a ’nade build? And how does the build handle ranged combat?

I think bombs fare a lot better in dungeons than most people think. I used to think they weren’t worth using, but have been using them a lot more since the 240-radius buff. You spend an awful lot of time in dungeons stacking against walls anyway for Fiery Greatsword and Whirlwind Attack, so the Bomb Kit fits right at home.

Only fight inside dungeons I can think of that forces you to play at range is TA F/U Nightmare Tree. Which is an issue for most builds in the game. I guess Fire Shaman too. But 25 Firearms gives you the flexibility to power up your Rifle if you’re really entering a fight you think you cannot survive in melee.

As for whether it’s more or less powerful, the Bomb Kit attacks faster, has an auto-attack that scales better with Power, and has a fire field for stacking Might. Only reason that a Grenade Kit Engineer will outperform is if literally no one in your group is stacking Vulnerability. But between both kits, I’d place the Bomb Kit as the superior one in terms of direct damage.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

well with bomb kit it gets a bit interesting because the steel packed powder makes bombs apply a stack of vulnerability on every pulse, meaning firebomb would cause 4 stacks of vulnerability (it pulses 4 times in 3 seconds) the 4 and 5 bomb kit skills also pulse for more stacks of vulnerability but I believe their damage is much lower.

Side note: I know my engineer can easily hit over 14k with grenade barrage, but it seems to me that 1 of the 8 grenades is always missing does any1 else have this issue.

Smoke Bomb and Glue Bomb actually deal zero damage. But Glue Bomb benefits from Sitting Duck, so it’s actually worth using as often as it comes up.

Didn’t know that about the pulsing fields triggering Steel-packed Powder. That’s awesome.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

it would also be best to use these 2 kits bomb kit and grenade kit in rotation (grenade barrage, grenade 2, grenade 4,bomb 2,) something like that while using your other utility as the thumper turret(its 3 blast finisher) meaning you can drop BoB, fire bomb, thumper turret, overcharge it, detonate it, and then use its toolbelt skill rumble. for some easy 12 might stacks for the group and then continue with your rotation (dropping bomb 1 skill when all of those other abilities are on cooldown.) you can also get more blast finishers through shield 4 healing turret and supply crate while using the same build (I just have a hard time get off more than 5 blast finisher in the fire field from bomb 2)

Why Thumper Turret? It has a gigantic cooldown.

Even if it offers 2 blast finishers in one slot, you can fit in 3 Throw Mines before Thumper Turret comes off cooldown. And Mine Field actually benefits from Explosive Powder.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’d suggest going with Berserker, then.

As for how construct the proper build, what kits are you looking to use?

I’ve mostly used the ‘nade kit so far, though I am not adverse to the bombs. I’ve tried the elixir gun and the tool kit, but I’m not a fan of either. I also prefer the rifle to the pistols, when it comes to the non-kit weapons. Rifle is just too fun.

30/5/0/10/25 is probably the most balanced Grenade Kit setup right now. Go from there and tweak it to your liking.

If you want to give bombs another try, I’m running 25/25/0/10/10 with mine right now. First link in my signature.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I should probably note that for my alts, of which my engy is, I don’t bother with multiple armor sets. I prefer a single armor set for all of my PvE needs and I don’t intend to bother with WvW.

I’d suggest going with Berserker, then.

As for how construct the proper build, what kits are you looking to use?

Well, my Signet Warrior point was two-fold.

First, passive bonuses are not the golden standard for utility skills. Look at every class. How many of them fit 3 signets on their bar and proceed to face roll WvW/PvE/PvP? Signet of Judgment and Signet of Rage are as situationally useful as gadgets are in their current state. I don’t see how changing them to better reflect the playstyle of signets will in any way improve their usability. And let’s forget about Rocket Boots for minute. We all know how good that one is.

So what about Throw Mine, something I’ve made a point to using a lot since trialing the Bomb Kit?

Throw Mine is (1) unblockable, (2) ground-targeted, (3) a blast finisher and (4) a boon stripper on a traitable 14.5 second cooldown. Mine Field pretty much one-shots most sub-Veteran mobs in Berserker gear. It also strips up to 5 boons on your targets.

And the OP apologizes to people who use it. What the eff?

To add a passive effect they’ll gut both the utility and its toolbelt of most their effects and give them a boilerplate passive bonus like the OP insinuated, because signets on average don’t have good active effects.

Second, even the strongest class in the game (Warrior) has an entire subset of skills that poorly optimizes the raw potential of the class. I actually thought the Signet Warrior was a great example, because it’s primarily designed to be an easy-access leveling build, similar to gadget-based Static Discharge builds are for Engineers. Fill your bar with signets and Hundred Blades or Triple Chop to 80.

Fill your bar full of gadgets, press F2-4 for a truckload of damage, use PBR and Throw Mine as necessary to keep your distance, and collect your shiny loot on the ground. It’s a more than acceptable way to play the Engineer, even if it doesn’t push the class to its fullest potential. It’s a strong setup from level 1—something that cannot be said for most of our kits.

I imagine this post will be lost amongst the crowd, but I did just want to thank you all for taking the time to craft a story as the game’s PvE progression versus a mindless gear grind that most other MMOs seem to focus on.

There are many times over the past 14 months or so that I’ve wished that we’d have the static campaigns of Guild Wars 1 back, with timed trials through Hard Mode. But the problem with that game (and other expansion-based titles) is that you eventually reach the point where you’ve done everything that you can.

A lot of RPGs counter this problem by instilling a gear treadmill instead a la large-scale raiding. What it always boils down to in the end, though, is a bunch of high level geared characters that have nothing to fight with their high level gear. It’s always been a massive conundrum amongst RPGs. The core experience of leveling up your character and gearing him out is so much fun, but the game always seems to end about the point in which your character is most powerful. You weren’t able to have your cake and eat it to, so to speak.

I like that the Living Story has managed to avoid this trap by making plot the progression of PvE. And I love that I always can look forward to new stuff to do every two weeks, even after I’ve fully geared out all my 80s with Ascended stuff.

I love how you guys have crafted the Living Story as a scaffold, because it feels like a more sincere compromise between story progression and loot progression. You still get the chance to obtain high-level, epic gear, but you continue to push out content at a regular pace that allows you to similarly experience content showing off your character.

I apologize if this wasn’t as serious a critique of your Living Story that you were more perhaps looking for, but I just wanted to let you know that some of us “get it” and are fully behind the design philosophy you have in mind for the Living Story, even if it hasn’t matched all of my expectations to this point. I think framing it as a television show is a really good way to place it, ideally because we always reach the point in watching our favorites that we don’t truly ever want it to end.

So some utilities fall under bread and butter skills while some are more situationally useful and aren’t meant to be built around.

I don’t see an issue with that, and I’d say that’s the case for a subset of skills with every class. Spirit Weapons are not worth building around as a Guardian, but they’re situationally incredible.

I also don’t think turning gadgets into signets would really make them into a solid build, either. When was the last time you saw a Signet Warrior in Fractal 48?

ThanatosAngel.8024:

Because honestly, who uses gadgets on their Engineer (and if you do, I apologize)?

Are you serious? Rocket Boots is one of the best non-kit utilities we have right now.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

I would disagree because not all jobs need to be done by one party member, for example you could have an ele for max might stacks as well as fury, while still dealing incredibly damage through FGS/LH. then you could bring a ranger for frost spirit, spotter trait for increased precision, and 10 stacks of vulnerability(on their opening strike), warrior with strength and precision banner, with “on my mark” (10 stacks of vulnerability, plus more blast finishers when they drop their banners) if using axe mace can apply 8 more stacks of vulnerability. These 3 classes alone not including the rest of your party members are able to meet all your conditions for maximum damage in a party with a bit extra from ranger with frost spirit (7% more party damage and spotter which is essentially 7%~ extra critical chance for everyone in the group). then you still have 2 spots open for whatever.

All the more reason to accept the fact that any dungeon group composition works, and that these threads are silly.