Guild Wars 2

DesertRose.2031:

Not bringing Bomb Kit when you main Grenade Kit makes about as much sense as not bringing Elixir Gun when you main Flamethrower; should we now likewise assume that a Flamethrower Engineer won’t have Elixir Gun?

Not sure why you should assume anything. The Flamethrower is more than viable on its own. I personally chose to construct my build around using both of them, but I’ve talked with a lot of FT Engineers over the past year who have absolutely zero interest wielding the Elixir Gun with it. Nothing nonsensical or weird about it. I think they pair together very well, but it’s not a requirement to take the Elixir Gun when using the Flamethrower.

I’ve used the Grenade Kit plenty in PvE and PvP, and I haven’t always taken the Bomb Kit in conjunction with it. I don’t see why I should automatically assume everyone taking the Grenade Kit is also taking the Bomb Kit. Especially if they’re running it with the Elixir Gun already.

DesertRose.2031:

The difference between an attack that does much more damage but takes only slightly longer to execute and increases the damage by your whole group by up to 4-6% is also pretty staggering.

Untraited, Acid Bomb is of course worth using. I just posted the Bomb Kit build I’ve been running with in PvE the past couple weeks on GW2 Guru. I use the EG with it, but I don’t run with Deadly Mixture. It’s worth using, but it’s still not as much as it would be without those traits. That’s all I’m saying.

DesertRose.2031:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You have to remember that GK Engineers don’t take Fireforged Trigger or Deadly Mixture, so you’re not going to get out of Acid Bomb what an FT Engineer does. So even if you did include Elixir Gun skills, I don’t think they would contribute much.

Never mind the fact that GK Engineers don’t have a fire field themselves to actually use it in.

Assuming the mobs/boss doesn’t move (quite common in dungeons) Elixir Gun #4 hits as hard as four untraited bomb auto attacks and usually gives either 3 stacks of Might or AoE healing.

That’s not really the point.

Of course it still does damage and can be used as a blast finisher in a fire field, but Grenade Kit Engineers don’t have fire fields by default and do not take Deadly Mixture or Fireforged Trigger.

The damage difference between utilizing a still untraited versus having its cooldown reduced by 20% and its damage increased by 15% is pretty staggering.

I don’t know. I think it’s pretty good.

Poison, torment, and confusion are everywhere in World vs World. For roamers I think this will be a very useful skill to have, especially since its toolbelt skill does not just remove toxic pollen, poison, torment and confusion like the main heal—it converts them into regeneration (3 seconds per).

(Wiki: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Packaged_Antitoxin)

You will then be able to cleanse confusion off you twice every 25-30 seconds; that’s a pretty nice counter to Mesmers in my book. Not that I really have any trouble dealing with them right now, except for the super glass cannon shatterers. I think this pushes Perplexity Bombers a bit back as well, which is probably a much needed fix without an outright nerf to Concussion Bomb, Pry Bar, or Perplexity runes.

So for condition removal, it’s pretty good. Definitely superior to all current options that we have, since Healing Turret is limited to 2 per overcharge, and you can’t choose which ones you remove. And Drop Antidote is just meh overall.

Looking at its actual healing though, it scales by 60% of your Healing Power for a base of 3920 health back. By comparison: Bandage Self heals for 4920 health back; scales by 100% of your Healing Power. Healing Turret heals for 5040 health; scales by 50% of your Healing Power.

While Antitoxin Spray gives 481 health back per condition removed, if you’re simply looking for direct healing, you may want to look elsewhere. Its radius is also smaller than the Healing Turret (360 vs 480).

Do with this information what you will. I think the most impressive addition of this patch is actually the Rune of Antitoxin. I’ll be getting on GW2 tonight solely to get my 250 spore samples and pick that up.

I wear Celestial in world events. The extra Healing Power helps to keep the Pact alive at Balthazar, and the gunners at Tequatl. When I play with the FT in WvW, I also wear it there (though in WvW I am currently using Perplexity while they’re still good with the Bomb/Tool combo).

For actual dungeons though, I think Berserker is ideal. Rune choice is usually Altruism or Scholar, though some still use 2 Hoelbrak/2 Fire/2 Strength for +60% Might Duration. Regardless of what you use, just remember that the majority of your damage will be coming from Flame Blast and not burning, so stack Power and not Condition Damage.

DesertRose.2031:

Bloodgruve.6038:

Strictly DPS wise these numbers are from my personal testing. Done in the mists for a ‘sterile’ environment. All done with Zerker setup to simply compare DPS levels.
30/10/0/0/30 Grenades w/SD runs around ~3100 DPS
0/30/0/30/10 FT/HGH ~2100 DPS
0/30/0/20/20 FT w/EG4 and SD ~2670 DPS
*10/30/0/20/10 FT w/EG4 and SD ~3050DPS

For better comparison you should also add a GK build with a comparable survivability to the two middle ones, e.g. 30/0/0/10/30. Also, include EG #4 into your rotation for grenades.

You have to remember that GK Engineers don’t take Fireforged Trigger or Deadly Mixture, so you’re not going to get out of Acid Bomb what an FT Engineer does. So even if you did include Elixir Gun skills, I don’t think they would contribute much.

Never mind the fact that GK Engineers don’t have a fire field themselves to actually use it in.

Bloodgruve.6038:

30/10/0/0/30 Grenades w/SD runs around ~3100 DPS
0/30/0/30/10 FT/HGH ~2100 DPS
0/30/0/20/20 FT w/EG4 and SD ~2670 DPS
*10/30/0/20/10 FT w/EG4 and SD ~3050DPS

I’d like to see how 0/25/0/20/25 compares.

Since the nerf to Incendiary Powder and the buff to Rocket Boots, it just makes more sense putting 25 points into Tools, taking Enduring Damage for 10% extra damage, and using Rocket Kick as your burn skill along with Incendiary Ammo. Never mind the fact that Incendiary Powder is single-target while Rocket Kick is a cleave skill.

Maderas.9741:

And the point of the thread was to find out if there’s something the flamethrower does better now than our other options and if that’s the reason people have started using it more.

I personally think that Napalm is a better fire field than Fire Bomb. It can be ground-targeted from 600 range so you can drop it in front of you and Rocket Boot through it. Fire Bombs are perpetually left behind you (and your party members) as you move through dungeons.

During fights this is completely fine, and while its duration is long enough to fit Big Ol’ Bomb, Magnetic Inversion, Detonate Healing Turret, Acid Bomb, and Rocket Boots barely, a simple mistake will ruin everything. I actually find it really annoying, seeing that I need to be perfect in my stow cancel on Acid Bomb, hit Magnetic Inversion literally THE SECOND OF its activation to fit Detonate Turret, and still Rocket Boot away from where I DPS. With the Flamethrower this isn’t a problem because of Flame Blast having 600 range, but I just think Fire Bomb is simply very cumbersome to use. Napalm by comparison lasts 10 seconds long, giving you more than enough time to comfortably fit all of your Blast finishers in as well as anyone else’s Blast finishers in the party. Not sure why anyone would prefer Fire Bomb to it, unless they’re really awful at their accuracy when it comes to Blast finishers.

Looking at Smoke Vent and Smoke Bomb, they’re two very powerful skills but for different reasons. Smoke Bomb is great for preemptively avoiding damage through Blind, or using it as a stealth field with Big Ol’ Bomb or Rocket Boots. But as an actual oh-kitten button, it’s pretty bad. The delay makes it a very poor choice. Smoke Vent by comparison is instantaneous, has the same range, has a shorter cooldown, and can be activated while stunned. Smoke Vent has kept me from being stomped in PvP/WvW so many times, I keep it around even when running the Bomb Kit primarily when I have room for it.

Air Blast is a very underrated skill as well. It has the same launch distance as Big Ol’ Bomb but has the surprise factor without being telegraphed (BoB is very easy to dodge). And at a 15 second cooldown, it’s probably one of the better knockback skills we have.

Flame Jet is a bad AA. It scales poorly. It has a long channel. And the burning ticks at the end rather than the beginning. I think there’s a lot of things mechanically that need to be worked on about it, but even in its current state, the kit still dishes out more than appropriate damage thanks to the contributions of Flame Blast.

Does it deal as much as the Bomb Kit? Absolutely not. But taking it as a sum of all of its parts, the Flamethrower is a more than viable setup that doesn’t require you to stand on top of Fire Elemental and burn to death to deal damage. I’ve been trying to use the Bomb Kit in PvE since the latest buff to its radius, but I still find it not a viable choice in A LOT of PvE content.

Maderas.9741:

coglin.1867:

Landing hits is very easy. It is much much better then back at release, so I am unclear why your claiming otherwise.

Because the #1 skill still misses ticks and does reduced damage unless your target is in the middle of your screen, and the napalm skill requires you to manually trigger the explosion which is a pain you’re being spammed with particle effects during large fights.

Turn off auto-targeting.

Also, Flame Blast does not have to be manually triggered. It automatically detonates at 600 range.

And to answer your question: it always has been.

DesertRose.2031:

Or how about not getting so worked up if someone posts objective facts.

I’m not denying objective facts. I just don’t see where the OP asked for them.

Is it too much to ask that you just refrain from that impulse?

Also, for the record, I never called you an “elitist,” so I’m not sure where you’re coming from with that. I think people construct their Engineers differently for different reasons. There’s nothing wrong with prioritizing damage.

DesertRose.2031:

The OP asked for the viability of this build which I answered. Then someone asked me to further explain my statement, which I did. Don’t ask questions you don’t like the answer of, guys.

You cannot be serious.

fourhim.3584:

Please, in advance, do not mention grenades. Tried it – hated it. If they can give them an auto-attack then I’m on board.

But I really want to use FT when I get to 40 and beyond, frankly because its just so fun.

He specifically says he’s not concerned about the Grenade Kit. You think what you wrote is even remotely the kind of feedback he’s looking for?

You guys define what kind of environment you want to have around here. I’m just one person. And I’ve tried to be as helpful as possible getting people to construct their FT builds properly. If I can’t get that through to players who want to wield the FT because you all are too busy arguing about how much damage each kit does, I’m just going to stop posting here.

I’m so tired of seeing this crap. It happens in every FT thread. Every single one.

DesertRose.2031:

ellesee.8297:

it’s pve. all these numbers are unnecessary unless it’s your goal to clear SE P1 in record time. play what you like. it’ll work i promise you.

Sure, in PvE you can pretty much run everything you want and somehow get by.
Just don’t be surprised if you get kicked out of your dungeon group if you say you run Flamethrower.

Please stop spreading these lies. I’ve been running the FT since I hit level 80 over 12 months ago. I’ve must’ve run each dungeon dozens of times by now, both inside and outside of my guild.

No one has ever kicked me from a group because of what kit I wield. I’ve been asked to play on my Warrior over my Engineer at times, but that is the extent of it. And of the times I said no, I wasn’t kicked for it.

Another FT thread turned into obnoxious theorycraft talk about “what is best” in spite of what the OP is looking for. I think we all know on paper how good the Bomb Kit is. We all use it in sPvP/WvW. But take it into one rotation of world events and you’ll understand why I don’t use it in PvE.

Fire Elemental. Golem. Tequatl. Ulgoth. Karka Queen. Dwayna. Etc. Etc.

There are so many world events that punish players for fighting in melee range. I would payout gold to watch a video of someone surviving the Temple of Grenth event from start to finish staying in melee range with the Bomb Kit. And sure, it’s pretty good in dungeons, but I’d rather run a build that I can use in 100% of PvE content. Meaning all the time.

fourhim.3584:

Please, in advance, do not mention grenades. Tried it – hated it. If they can give them an auto-attack then I’m on board.

But I really want to use FT when I get to 40 and beyond, frankly because its just so fun.

Sigh.

fourhim.3584:

Has anyone ever tried a full Rampager’s build where you focus on the highest possible crit chance, lots of Might, and lots of condition damage?

I have, and I don’t recommend it. While the FT does maintain a lot of burning damage, the difference in damage stacking Condition Damage versus not with your burns only results in a few hundred extra damage per tick. By comparison, stacking Power and Critical Damage contributes to a significant difference in damage. My Flame Blast in Berserker/Scholar gear regularly hits for over 13K damage between both hits.

In PvE, Berserker is just the way to go.

Divinity.8041:

Hi guys, I recently turned engi main, and wanted to know why people think this class sucked and had low play % numbers.

As MrForz alluded to, a lot of it has to do with difficulty. You cannot just spin and win with your greatsword like other classes can.

The Bomb Kit with 240 radius is a lot easier to use than it used to be. Before, it was just hard to actually land bombs on targets because people could so easily avoid them. The Grenade Kit is also very good, but its lack of an auto-attack makes it harder to use. And then there’s the Flamethrower, which requires using your camera properly to make the most out of it.

Mechanically, the Engineer is just a lot more complicated to play than Warriors, Guardians, and Thieves are. So you’ll naturally see less of them. It was never a question of the Engineer sucking, so much as the number of players that suck at using them. I’d say that Engineers have always quietly been near the top of all professions in PvP. Perhaps not always—or ever—the “best” one, but we’ve always been effective.

I’ve leveled other classes to 80, but I always have played my Engineer in sPvP.

jknrich.1549:

Ok guys. Some may say this is a random place to have this topic but I think it’s perfect.
I have a engineer as my main. Love the little Asura.
What I want to know is from you guys if you have a alt that you some times dust down and give a run or if you just run your engineers.

I am looking for something that will give me enjoyment and fun like the engi is doing but also plays different.

My playstyle is very much bunker type with decent offensive capabilities.

Cheers.

If you’re looking for the class closest to Engineer, I’d recommend trying Elementalist. They’re both boon stackers on the support side (versus, say, a Mesmer with projectile walls and Haste), rely on swapping attunements (similar to kits) to dish out the most damage, and are combo field/finisher batteries similar to Engineers.

If you’re just looking for a class that operates in roles different from the Engineer, I’d look at Thief or Mesmer.

I have a Guardian and Warrior myself, but I don’t really view them as “alts.” I play only my Engineer in PvP/WvW, but I play them equally as often in PvE, based largely on party composition. I’m also working on getting a Mesmer and Elementalist to 80, but these are casual breaks from normalcy more than serious efforts.

Surprised you say you like solo-capping or roaming, as this looks like a more zerg-oriented build.

Where is the damage? While I think Super Elixir is a dandy second heal, it’s not going to outsustain everything. And though I do advocate running support builds in WvW, I feel you have to dish out a little yourself, as well. In large zergs you can rely on other people to deal damage, but if there’s just 2-3 of you capping a camp, everyone has to contribute.

Knote.2904:

Um, well, when you’re talking about a flamethrower-focused might stacking build that usually means trying to push out as much dmg as possible.

Not just throwing flamethrower on as a utility kit for any random build.

Some players just happen to like the play style of the Flamethrower and they want to maximize its damage potential, whether or not it is ideally the highest damaging kit we have.

If you enjoy spamming 41111121111111121111114211111 then by all means I recommend utilizing the Grenade Kit. I think players should first and foremost use weapons they actually enjoy playing with, because ultimately what playing video games comes down to is having fun.

I know it’s a tough pill to swallow, but some people don’t actually want to use the Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit and don’t find them fun to use all the time. Instead of supporting him on his choice, you instead beat him over the head how much better you think the Bomb Kit is, whether or not that’s actually the kind of play style he wants to utilize.

Seras.5702:

Apparently, the concensus though is that it doesn’t matter how many stacks of might I’ve got, FT just isn’t going to dish out any kind of desirable damage. And I should switch to bombs.

I just read stuff like this and shake my head.

Seras.5702:

Apparently, the consensus though is that it doesn’t matter how many stacks of might I’ve got, FT just isn’t going to dish out any kind of desirable damage.

I think that depends on what you consider “desirable.”

Maximizing raw damage output isn’t the objective of every build out there.

Forestnator.6298:

I just wonder where your bombs or grenades are.

Believe it or not, there are other ways to play the Engineer than 30 points in Explosives.

FreekPalmer.2839:

The reason for celestial is pretty simple. You condis will be up a lot of the time, its free damage. you have survivability from all the bonus stats. With might stacking in general you will have a lot of power and condi damage and should be at around 17-20 stacks of might solo, 25 easy with others around(guardian or ele) You can get 6 stacks of might from just pressing your heal.

Yeah, Celestial is fantastic with the Flamethrower. You’ll have less Power than Berserker, but with the 6-9 stacks of Might you get from Juggernaut, it balances out well.

Seras.5702:

@ Phineas: for now I’m testing it in the Labrynth zerg. Let’s me get away with design flaws. Ultimately, I want to use it in dungeons. Despite people dissing FT’s damage output, I can’t help but love it. Especially with so many might stacks.

People diss the Flamethrower’s damage because in-game numbers can be very deceiving. Flame Jet is no doubt a very poorly scaled auto-attack for its duration and something I wouldn’t mind seeing changed. But Flame Blast is one of the most potent damage skills Engineers have. It certainly scales better with Power than Shrapnel Grenade.

I think it also rubs some people the wrong way that Juggernaut forces players to stay within the Flamethrower, something that no other kit has issues with. If they reworked Juggernaut as a passive damage buff rather than stacking Might, I think some would warm up to it better. But ArenaNet seems fixated on the way Juggernaut currently works, probably because we already have Deadly Mixture.

Looks fine, if not a bit on the defensive side of things. If you want to eke out a little extra offense, why not just put another 5 points into Firearms for Target the Maimed? I’d put the other 5 points into Inertial Converter, giving you new toss elixirs at 25%.

I’m just not a big fan of Inventions and what it really brings to the table, but I think it’s viable. Where would you use this?

Ulric.2049:

Do you think it is viable to try your build at my level with leveling in mind?

Certainly! Just make a point to get to 20 points in Firearms and Alchemy first for Juggernaut and Deadly Mixture.

Raghnu.1049:

They mean if they wanted to gear zerker, they would play a class capable of pumping out more damage without getting squished.

Flamethrower Engineers shouldn’t really have any issues with surviving. I have my own Guardian and Warrior, both geared out in full Berserker too. The problem, though, is that their higher armor values make them more liable to pull aggro. Have you ever seen a Berserker Warrior as the only heavy in a dungeon group without Mesmers to crush through everything? It’s not very pretty, speaking from personal experience with that.

Flamethrower Engineers also have the benefit of 425-600 range attacks, meaning they stay outside melee range.

If you want to complain about the Flamethrower’s damage, that’s fine. Maxing out the Engineer’s damage is not really the purpose of this build. But your survivability is not an issue, and I’d say a Berserker-clad FT/EG Engineer has a way easier time than a Berserker Warrior or Guardian. A Flamethrower Engineer in particular has a way easier time staying alive in full Berserker compared to, say, a Bombineer who hits from 240 range, has zero points in Alchemy, and has under 2K armor.

Celwina.2598:

Meh, if I wanted to itemize berserker I’d play a more survivable, higher damage, easier to play class (so, pretty much all of them.) I’d like to see some good defensive engineers builds but they don’t appear to hold up well.

What do you mean by “itemizing” Berserker?

EroticAndHeretic.7398:

Very nice topic here! Probably a better version with more offense of my own FT/EG hybrid build, but I really enjoy to see it!

The only thing I will “complain” about is that I see almost no engineers talking about (in game) nor using the FT’s air blast ability to deflect projectiles. When traited with fireforged triggers, it gives the engineer a reflector with a cooldown of 12 seconds, and I find it really great!

Again, really good topic!

Yes, Air Blast most certainly deflects projectiles! While on the subject of the skill, I think it’s also important to mention that its 2-second burn only adds to existing durations and will not happen if the target is not already burning.

I don’t know if that’s a bug or not, but it does help fill the gaps between Blowtorch, Rocket Kick, and Incendiary Ammo.

Hello all. I’ve updated this to the latest patch.

Enjoy.

I’ve already resold it. I never equipped it on my Engineer.

Effex.3049:

This complaint (thread) is like saying ‘conjure still replace weapons’. When you have the back piece displayed your weapons are wielded, and equipping a kit replaces your weapons.

With all due respect, take a moment and look at the photo I posted.

You really think that this “complaint” is unjustified?

If they’re going to be hellbent on making Engineers have no reason to wear cool back pieces, at least fix the clipping issue where our back pieces reappear the second we start attacking. Because it looks awful.

huwpewpew.6075:

Didn’t see any changes mentioned in the patch notes. Or am I going blind?

“Weapon skills that hide the player’s weapon will no longer hide their back-slot item.”

VIVorcha.7853:

Working as intended.

Can we get an ANet response on this? Is this working as intended?

I blew 190 gold buying a Decorative Molten Jetpack in preparation for this change.

So much for that.

So much for that.

Chaith.8256:

That’s right. Toss Elixir B you can apply to multiple allies, IE, when reviving. Obviously toss Elixir B has nothing on Stand Your Ground, which is one of the most silently OP utilities in the game. Stand Your Ground is a stunbreak, an instant 600 radius from caster (wow) stability & retal effect. Toss Elixir B is a 180 radius from a ground targeted point. Not equally as user friendly. If you use it intelligently, and luckily, you can do just as good as Stand Your Ground with it, when double-triple reviving. The 4 second stability is justified. I mean, it’s just a straight up buff where there was nothing stability-like there before.

Oh, definitely. Stand Your Ground is one of the best utilities in the entire game. It never leaves my Guardian’s bar. But while Toss Elixir B may have a smaller radius than a shout, you can throw elixirs 900 range. I think some people may contest that’s a poor offset, but mechanically there’s balance in that with what you can do with elixirs versus shouts, even if Elixir B doesn’t benefit fully.

With my WvW/PvE build I run 25 Tools, meaning it’ll have a 24 second cooldown similar to Toss Elixir C. That makes it practically on par with Stand Your Ground in Stability management, and let’s not forget that consuming Elixir B carries its own benefits, including 10 seconds of Fury and Retaliation. So I, like you, think 4 seconds of Stability is fully justified with everything else the skill offers.

Not sure I’ll have that flexibility as a condition bomber in sPvP, but the idea of running 15 Tools is viable. An extra 4 seconds of Stability at 25% HP? Yesplz.

Not yet. I’m waiting to see how the new legendary weapons look first. I’m also waiting to see what new weapon types we get.

But I’m slowly getting Huntsman and Weaponsmithing to 500 by converting materials.

Knote.2904:

I don’t see anything flamethrower does that bomb kit doesn’t do better.

Flamethrower Engineers have better range (as you mentioned), have better survivability with 200 passive Toughness from Juggernaut, and can blind targets with Smoke Vent while knocked down—on a significantly shorter cooldown than Smoke Bomb.

1v1, Air Blast is worlds ahead Big Ol’ Bomb. They both knockback/launch the same distance, but Air Blast has half the cooldown and isn’t telegraphed. I’ve done my share of ledge kills with it that people would have simply dodged away from with Big Ol’ Bomb.

There are a lot of world events and dungeon bosses where using the Bomb Kit is really subpar. I’d love to see a Bomb Kit user actually stay in bomb range during the entire Temple of Grenth event without getting thrown into the ceiling. It’s hard enough with the Flamethrower. I think the same could be said of a lot of the revamped world events, especially Golem. I certainly don’t see anyone running the Bomb Kit against Tequatl, and I’ve had my share of completed kills on SoR.

And in WvW I find it’s pretty awful in zergs compared to the Flamethrower. The delay is obnoxious and it doesn’t have the spread of the Flamethrower or the Grenade Kit in terms of tagging. It’s a fantastic roaming kit, but so is the Flamethrower.

If you’re concerned about maximizing your direct damage or landing another 5 stacks of Confusion on your target, the Bomb Kit is definitely more up your alley. But there are a lot of things the Flamethrower does a lot better than the Bomb Kit, the biggest thing being that it has a Fire field long enough to fit all of your Blast finishers in it in one rotation so that you can get back to focusing on DPS.

Adamantium.3682:

I don’t mean to rain on the parade here, but is anyone else bummed the Stability from Toss B is only 4 seconds? I mean that’s pretty sad. I wasn’t expecting 20, but when you look at other professions (which could be my problem) that are easily getting 30+ seconds of stability, it’s frustrating that this “fix” is giving us 4.

Considering Stand Your Ground lasts 5 seconds, what exactly were you expecting?

Ostricheggs.3742:

the thing that gets me is that bomb kit is already one of our best kits. Why not give e-gun or flame-thrower a little bit of love?

Honestly the buffs to bomb kit could possibly be an overbuff and a disaster depending on what else happens with the patch

Well, I’d say the FT and EG are perfectly fine for what they’re designed to do, but that’s just me.

As for overbuff: I’m less concerned about that. I think that this is a much needed change to make it more viable in zergs and in PvE. Right now you literally have to stand on top of bosses to hit with the auto-attack, which is really awful in a lot of dungeons and world bosses. With Forceful Explosives, 240 radius gives the kit a little more wiggle room.

Zorgog.3908:

Five Guage is a good one.

Chaith is another good one.

Wut.

With Ostricheggs on this one. I think Bomb Kit is going to get a lot more playtime starting tomorrow, at least for myself.

Elixir S change is all good, but I don’t know if I really want to give up Rocket Boots…

Please ignore the naysayers. The Flamethrower is a more than viable choice.

Wally.3940:

Are use Flamethrower Engineers using condition damage now? Power and Precision? What about armour and runes? I could really use some help here, from you experienced Engineers. And again—I don’t need to be told to go grenade. I’m trying to optimize something less-than-optimal and have fun doing it. Thanks!

Full Berserker is usual, with either Altruism or Scholar runes depending on whether you want to lean more toward support or DPS. Pair it with the Elixir Gun and whatever third utility you feel like running. If I’m doing a Might stacking rotation I slot in Rocket Boots. If I’m concerned with more utilitarian support, I’ll use Elixir R for the area revive or Elixir U for the projectile wall.

The Flamethrower does dish out less damage than the Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit in DPS centric setups, but it’s still a more than viable setup and satisfies a more hybrid playstyle with its natural synergy with the Elixir Gun. Besides, it’s fun.

DesertRose.2031:

E.g. an Engineer with Grenade Kit, Bomb Kit, Elixir Gun and Healing Turret is able to generate as much if not more Might stacks than one with Flamethrower, Rocket Boots, Elixir Gun and Healing Turret.

You’d be making a point to me if I didn’t already say this.

Phineas Poe.3018:

A Grenade Kit Engineer could choose to run the Bomb Kit as a second kit, giving them a Fire field and a Blast finisher. But then you’re down to one utility skill, substantially limiting your options. You’re forced to make decisions like whether to take the Elixir Gun or Elixir R—something that an FT Engi doesn’t have to do.

Sorry, but your argument is ultimately unconvincing.

DesertRose.2031:

Lets assume no one else brings a fire field.

Why assume? I always tell people I party with that they don’t need other Fire fields, and just to use their Blast finishers in Napalm when I drop it. You simply don’t need a second Fire field if you coordinate.

Guardians in my guild will, if anything, run Hallowed Ground in addition to Napalm for Stability, but generally speaking if I’m wielding the FT—or if I’m in a group as a Guardian with someone else wielding the FT—I am (or they are) responsible for laying down the Fire field.

Because of Napalm’s long duration, it’s stupid-easy to hit the Might cap every 24 seconds. And because Area Might stacks last 20+ seconds, it’s all you need in the first place.

This is my last post on this subject, as I feel as though I’m just repeating myself at this point.

DesertRose.2031:

Flamethrower is a pretty poor choice if you want to generate Might. Bomb Kit has a way faster recharging fire field and thus synergies better with Elixir Gun than Flamethrower regarding Might generation.

It’s a 10-second long Fire field versus a 3-second long Fire field. Obviously Fire Bomb is going to have a shorter cooldown. As for “synergizing better” with the Elixir Gun: it’s true you’ll always have Fire Bomb available when Acid Bomb is ready. Napalm, by comparison, can have—at best—a 24 second cooldown. But in reality, this is a moot point, because my dungeon groups hit the Might cap without a second Acid Bomb.

DesertRose.2031:

In fact a grenade Engineer can just as good generate Might as a Flamethrower Engineer.

I’m not quite sure how that is the case, given that the Grenade Kit has neither a Fire field nor a Blast finisher in any of its skills. It’s additional utility skills, like Blast finishers, at your disposal that give the Grenade Kit Might stacking potential—the same ones could take with the Flamethrower along with a 10-second duration Fire field to actually detonate them in.

A Grenade Kit Engineer could choose to run the Bomb Kit as a second kit, giving them a Fire field and a Blast finisher. But then you’re down to one utility skill, substantially limiting your options. You’re forced to make decisions like whether to take the Elixir Gun or Elixir R—something that an FT Engi doesn’t have to do.

I hope this, to some extent, answers your question you asked here:

DesertRose.2031:

So, what’s the advantage of Flamethrower compared to Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit?

But in regard to the Bomb Kit vs. the Flamethrower, I think it comes down to play style choice. I think people should choose the kit they feel most comfortable with, or the kit that plays up to the kind of role they seek to fill in groups.

I think there’s considerable overlap between the Flamethrower, Bomb Kit, and Grenade Kit in what they can do, and I think that is in a lot of ways intentional. But they are mechanically very different from one another.

• While a lot of PvE content these days is dependent on stacking, I prefer that I can safely attack from 425 range when I need to, which the Bomb Kit can’t do.

• I prefer that Napalm is ground targeted, which Fire Bomb is not.

• I prefer that Smoke Vent can be used while stunned/knocked down, something Smoke Bomb cannot do (without ABD)—and on a much shorter cooldown.

• I prefer that the Flamethrower is significantly more survivable with 200 added Toughness thanks to Juggernaut, something the Bomb Kit does not have.

• And, perhaps most importantly, I prefer the Flamethrower because I think shooting plumes of smoke and fire is more aesthetically pleasing than bending over every 0.8 seconds; I find wielding it more entertaining. The advantage to running the Flamethrower is that I actually find it enjoyable to use.

DesertRose.2031:

What’s the support that Flamethrower offers you always speak about?

Both the Flamethrower and the Bomb Kit offer a Fire field, which grants the ability to self-stack Might for one’s group.

DesertRose.2031:

Oh, and even with on mobs with the Unshakeable attribute an grenade Engineer can inflict roughly 10 stacks of Vulnerability; but I guess ~10% more damage for the whole group isn’t “honest” support.

Well, let’s get one thing straight. I’m not saying that the Grenade Kit is not in any way helpful or supportive. I think it’s plenty useful in providing offensive support. But I refuse to believe that it is a better support setup than an FT/EG user, which is the insinuation that brought us to this conversation in the first place.

And on the subject of Vulnerability, I would much rather compose a build around giving my group 12-15 stacks of Might. Adding 420-525 Power is nearly as useful (if not equal to or more so) to laying down 10 stacks of Vulnerability on a boss. Plus Might doesn’t exclude Condition Damage users, either.

VIVorcha.7853:

Yeah, 4k damage at 25 might stacks for a 2 1/4 s channel at 425 range is really not that much.

The scaling on the FT is terrible.

The real damage of the Flamethrower comes from Flame Blast, not Flame Jet.

But even then, if you’re concerned with maximizing DPS, you should probably look elsewhere.

On paper, the Grenade Kit sounds like a great “support” option. Blind and Chilled are both great CC options, and Vulnerability stacking contributes to group DPS.

But in actual application, results will vary. Significantly. Any monster that has Unshakeable (i.e., most of them—of those that actually matter in PvE) renders Blind 10% effective (in other words, useless), fully resists Chilled, and nerfs Vulnerability to 50% its posted duration.

If one must talk of support, it should be something that is 100% effective 100% of the time. I think the Grenade Kit is fantastic at a lot of things, especially DPS. But if one is concerned with “honest” support, take the Flamethrower or the Bomb Kit.

ellesee.8297:

for pve it’s just preference really. rabid doesn’t do as much damage as rampager but ups your survivability by a lot, and you wouldn’t have to swap armors for wvwvw.

My problem with using Rabid in PvE is that the added Toughness can sometimes pull additional aggro. Especially if the Guards/Warriors in your group are wearing Berserker gear, it can sometimes cause you to take more damage than you would without it.

That, and the issue of inanimate objects being immune to conditions. Without any Power, your grenades hit like wet noodles.

Xyonon.3987:

Flamethrower in PvE is just a might kitten. For honest support go for grenades and elixier gun with many finishers.

Just curious, but what “support” does the Grenade Kit offer?

Why choose when you can use them both!

They benefit from the same traits (Fireforged Trigger, Deadly Mixture) so there’s a natural synergy between both kits.

Wolfar.6508:

I compared both stats and I have to say when it comes to Direct Damage Celestial set is A LOT better. The downside is that I lose a lot of condition damage.

Well, that’s to be expected since Rabid doesn’t add Power or Critical Damage.

The question you should be asking yourself is whether or not the loss of Condition Damage gearing out of Rabid is fully regained by wearing Celestial and boosting your Power and Critical Damage. I would be inclined to think that with the Grenade Kit that answer would be “no,” but that depends on a lot of other factors.

I hope you find a balance that you like, either with Celestial or without it.

You may dish out more direct damage in Celestial than you would in Rabid, but your conditions will tick for a lot less.

I’m not exactly sure what else you want to know. Celestial is an obvious loss in DPS in exchange for a gain in survivability and support. How much that gain/loss fits the results you’re looking for depends on a lot of external factors including your traits and utility skill selection.

I recommend just continuing to compile your set and seeing how the damage visibly compares with your build.

Chaith.8256:

From the little PvE experience I have in explorable dungeons only, it’s either you run supporty/hybrid and finish the dungeon in 30 minutes, or run berserker and finish it in 15 minutes. Obviously, build enough survivability for the encounter, but why not contribute to doing the dungeon faster?

I would argue that running a “support” spec does contribute to completing dungeons faster. Remember that the Guardian-Warrior-Mesmer group composition is dependent on Guardians and Mesmers taking projectile walls, Stability, condition removal skills, etc. etc.

They’re playing “support” roles, as many Engineers like myself do. Just not in the sense that I sink 30 points into Inventions, trait for Elixir-Infused Bombs, and pretend that I’m playing a Monk. My Guardian offers condition removal, projectile walls, Fire fields, Aegis, and Stability. He also hits for 3K a swipe with his Sword.

There are a lot of ways that one can be supportive of one’s allies while still wearing Berserker gear. I prefer Altruism runes over Scholar on my Engineer because I think it creates a larger net gain in group DPS than Scholar does selfishly for oneself, but I also believe in crazy things like letting Warriors maximize their DPS while I cleanse conditions for them.

If you want to quantify numbers with Baby’s First Adventure CoF p1, I guess that 5 DPS-over-all oriented builds are ideal. But if you’re running PvE content like Tequatl, Temple of Grenth/Balthazar, TA F/U, CoE, Arah, or Fractals, everyone is wearing as much DPS gear as they can survive with but still keep supportive roles in mind—a direction that ArenaNet continues to emphasize as they expand PvE content.