Guild Wars 2

Just because the rune set isn’t relevant to us that doesn’t mean that there’s no reason/reward for Engineers to run Fractals.

Manuhell.2759:

Cause as right now, that seems to say “don’t even bother doing it if you’re an engineer, no rewards for you here”.

You’re right. Because completing Fractals 50+ is solely about getting a new rune set.

Dharknite.7906:

There are runes that will clearly benefit certain armor types more so than others and state so in the name( Rune of the Soldier, etc.) There are runes that benefit specific professions and state so in the name (Rune of Ranger etc.) I do not think that is problem.

I do think it is a problem when they add a new rune that the requires a signet to use the 6pc bonus, and engineer don’t have signets. With the exception of Rune of Soldier(which oddly enough gives the most benefit to soldier classes), runes that have a skill use proc use either heal skills or elite skills which every profession has. An on demand aegis can be a good defensive tool, and depending on cooldown of the proc, OP for players who use mulitple signets already.

Shout runes aren’t the only ones. If you cannot self-stack Might, Might Duration runes are useless to you. It increases the duration of Might that you apply, not those from your allies. The same goes for any boon runes. Rune of the Forge is one of the best runes available in WvW for a FT Engineer. Increased Protection from Protection Injection, increased burning, and an AoE Fire Blast. It’s pretty useless for most others.

The same can be said for a lot of condition duration runes. Would any Guardian grab 2 Runes of the Centaur for +15% Bleed Duration? Of course not. There are a ton of runes in this game that are outright useless for certain classes. For once we’re on the receiving end of it, after already having made excellent use of one of the most recent additions: Rune of Perplexity.

Overblown.

ellesee.8297:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Why Speedy Kits? You also already have Automated Medical Response, so there’s no reason to take Inertial Converter.

inertial converter is for toss elixir r and it refreshes the stunbreak and water field for good measure. automated medical response doesn’t refresh the healing turret toolbelt. and speedy kits because i like permanent swiftness lol.

Fair enough. I just think there are better uses for those points, like taking 10 Firearms for Sitting Duck (which is so amazing with the Rifle).

Mad Rasputin.7809:

There are two big issues with legendaries and Engies. The already mentioned no increase in kit damage with a legendary/ascended weapon equipped. I’m well aware of base kit damages but what is the point for an engie to get an ascended/legendary weapon if they are going to mainly be in a kit that isn’t affected by the increase in stats? And no, we are not alone in this plight.

They don’t benefit from increased Weapon Strength, but they definitely benefit from the rest of the stats. You’re also neglecting the fact that legendary weapons can have their stats swapped at any time. I consider that enough of a reason to go for a legendary weapon alone. I definitely don’t regret going after mine being able to swap between Berserker and Sentinel on my Predator depending on whether I’m doing PvE or WvW.

I recognize the issues you’re talking about, and I do wish that The Predator’s increased Weapon Damage contributed to kit damage. But I still melt PvE content with the Bomb Kit. Your Power and the skill’s coefficient based on your Power value are a much more integral part to how much damage stuff does anyway.

I recognize the problem; I just think it’s overblown.

Mad Rasputin.7809:

And the issue with legendary effects while in kits.

Does Zealot’s Defense change for Guardians using Bolt? Skill effects very rarely change depending on the weapon your equip. Just use Throw Static Shield with Flameseeker.

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Oh come on. There are a lot of class-specific runes out there. And there are a lot of runes in this game that obviously favor certain classes. Do you really think that other classes use on-heal runes as well as we do, with just swapping to Med Kit?

And how many runes that exclude a single class are there?
We can’t use that bonus at all, and we’re the only class that can’t do so.

They could have made it work with gadgets, for example.

Uhh … Shout runes? Might Duration runes? Any condition duration runes?

And neither of them exclude a single class – like this tune does.

Pretty sure that Runes of the Soldier exclude every class that doesn’t have shouts. Whether it excludes one class or it excludes six, I don’t really see the difference.

bulent.7391:

this is funny you are comparing engineer kits with elementalist conjure weapons.

Comparing them? I’m just explaining how the game works. Both conjured weapons and kits are bundles with their own Weapon Strength. They replace your weapon.

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Oh come on. There are a lot of class-specific runes out there. And there are a lot of runes in this game that obviously favor certain classes. Do you really think that other classes use on-heal runes as well as we do, with just swapping to Med Kit?

And how many runes that exclude a single class are there?
We can’t use that bonus at all, and we’re the only class that can’t do so.

They could have made it work with gadgets, for example.

Uhh … Shout runes? Might Duration runes? Any condition duration runes?

Zypher.7609:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

Honestly, with no fixes to basic engineer issues like hobosacks and legendary weapon issues and the addition of this new rune, I feel like this is a big middle finger to the engineers out there.

What legendary weapon issues?

Most likely in reference to no kit %increase when using a legendary.

Well, that’s largely because all bundles in this game have their own damage values. The same goes for Elementalists conjure weapons. Don’t really see the big deal. Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit compete just fine in the damage department, and they still take the increased Power, Precision, etc.—just not the Weapon Strength.

Legendaries are still very much worth getting as an Engineer, simply because you can change the stats of them at any given time.

ellesee.8297:

have you considered taking out points from alchemy and placing them into explosives? you’d be supporting your party even further by stacking vulnerability, your bombs will do more damage, and you’ll gain even more might stacks on heal. you can also use grenadier for bosses that require ranged attacks if need be.

or maybe you could place only 15 into explosives and 5 into tools so you’ll have a recharged stunbreak and water field if your health goes too low. you can swap out elixir u for elixir r to make up for the vigor loss and the elixir r toolbelt is pretty amazing considering you have two of them.

also with 4% crit chance i’d swap sigils. maybe battle.

so something like this
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIq6ZnwyuF17IyoCdWoHSohpWfeIXt1DC-jQCB4hBkaAkEBILqIasFhBpOMaVOhVNjIqWnEDA-e

or

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIq6ZnwyuF17Iy4DdWoHSohpWfZIXPIA-jQCB4hBkaAkEBILqIasFhBpOMaVOhVNjIqWnEDA-e

Why Speedy Kits? You also already have Automated Medical Response, so there’s no reason to take Inertial Converter.

Mad Rasputin.7809:

Honestly, with no fixes to basic engineer issues like hobosacks and legendary weapon issues and the addition of this new rune, I feel like this is a big middle finger to the engineers out there.

What legendary weapon issues?

Oh come on. There are a lot of class-specific runes out there. And there are a lot of runes in this game that obviously favor certain classes. Do you really think that other classes use on-heal runes as well as we do, with just swapping to Med Kit?

amiable.4823:

I am an average player at best, I switched to a warrior for WvW and the difference in gameplay is literally night and day. I run a variation of the standard melandru/lemongrass defensive shout warrior (GS-S/sh) with a mix of celstial and clerics. I’m very hard to take down. I have been fighting roaming engy’s and feel bad because I remember how disheartening it was to fight sustain warriors and outplay them on every level but be unable to bring them under 75% health. Literally this morning I had a 4-5 minute fight with an SoR engy who played his kitten heart out but was totally unable to bring me less to less than 75% health.

In my past 4 weeks of roaming on my warrior I have been beaten by an engineer once. An SoR engy in a green outfit/gas mask (I think he has some videos out but I can’t remember his name for the life of me). He just flat out outplayed me on every level and it still took him a minute or two to bring me down, he totally desroyed me though, mad props to this guy because he was awesome.

How he did it: He was running nades/EG/rocket boots. HEAVY condition damage and duration, probably at least 70-100% duration with 2.5k condition damage. he was fastidious about applying poisons to me to make sure my sustain was impaired (rotated pistol 2, fumigate and poison nades). He was great at kiting and keeping distance.

Summary: stack 2.5k+ condition damage and 70-100% duration, keep poison up. Dodge specials that allow condition cleanse.

Seriously though, if it takes that level of play to take down a scrub like me playing a warrior there is some serious game imbalance.

Do you remember if they had an [EG] tag? Might’ve been me, haha. I slotted the gas mask on my Celestial gear, and I run with both the green SAB pistol and shield as my Giver’s (some reason can’t choose Giver’s on my legendary, so next best option).

Could just be coincidence, though. There are a lot of good Engineers on SoR I’ve had the pleasure of playing with.

I think the mistake a lot of players make constructing their Engineers is that they take bad traits. Warrior is no doubt a much easier class to play, but I think it’s important to accept the fact that stunlock builds are popular and build around that appropriately when roaming. Take Protection Injection over Invigorating Speed, and drop 10 Firearms out of your build and take Stabilized Armor instead.

53% damage reduction while stunned has saved my life too many times to count.

Right now I’m running 30/0/10/20/10 with Bomb Kit and Tool Kit. For third utility I usually take either Rocket Boots or Elixir Gun. Full Rabid with Antitoxin runes. Dual Givers weapons with Sigils of Torment and Corruption. Koi Cake for food.

Forceful Explosives, Incendiary Powder, and Short Fuse up the Explosives tree. I take Stabilized Armor in Inventions to curb the ridiculousness of 100 Blades Warriors and other stunlock specs that are pretty popular right now. In Alchemy I take Protection Injection and Backpack Regen. 10 Tools is for Speedy Kits.

Come December 10 I’ll probably drop Speedy Kits out of my build and just take 20 into Inventions for Power Shoes, which will give a 25% movement increase both inside and outside of combat.

Dr Ishmael.9685:

Kahrgan.7401:

Reinforced Shield This should be adept tier.

Not gonna happen, he stated in the Dec. 10th elementalist discussion that they don’t like having recharge-reduction at the adept tier.

Certainly didn’t stop them with Fireforged Trigger or Hair Trigger.

Forestnator.6298:

Effective gameplay is about combining skills between kits.

To a point, yes. I advocate carrying more than just one kit for most content in GW2. But the fact of the matter is, Bomb scales better with Power than Grenade does (125% versus 33% per grenade), so if you’re going to “spam” any skill as an Engineer, it should be the Bomb Kit auto-attack above all else.

The only advantage using the Grenade Kit is the superior Vulnerability stacking (3 stacks versus 1). I don’t find that this contributes to an overall increase in damage, coming from personal experience. It may elevate group DPS on the whole, but it’s not like we’re the only ones who can contribute to stacking Vulnerability.

It might be worth it in some cases to swap to the Grenade Kit purely for Shrapnel Grenade, but I’m not going to call someone a bad player if they choose to not run with the Grenade Kit. I certainly don’t, most of the time—especially when Engineers can contribute in a lot more ways than a marginal damage increase, like slotting an elixir for stability, stealth, or a projectile wall.

Forestnator.6298:

You can just replace your healing bombs by super-elixir from EG with the same result – wihout 30 wasted points in the weakest trait line.

But these are not mutually exclusive. You could easily take both, especially since Super Elixir scales so well with Healing Power these days. If healing support was what you wanted to do with your Engi, you probably should have the Elixir Gun on your bar regardless.

DesertRose.2031:

Either your team has it already covered, then your contribution becomes redundant, or it hasn’t it covered, then your contributions doesn’t cut it.

I very much disagree with this statement. There is no such thing as having too many projectile walls in fractals. And there’s definitely no such thing as having too much Stability in Harpy or Cliffside fractal.

DesertRose.2031:

- Your FT/EG provides faster recharging EG, 3 stacks more Might (2xAltruism), and short-lived Fury (6xAltruism); the Fury becomes redundant if there’s either one decent Ranger, Ele or Warrior in your party.
- GK/BK/EG provides two to four times as much Blind, and a 10-15% damage boost for the whole party against bosses.
- BK/EG provides as much Might, slightly more Blind, and a 3-4% damage boost for the whole party against bosses.

8 seconds of Fury is short lived? I guess I should stop taking For Great Justice on my Warrior. And as someone who plays a Warrior, the suggestion that one Warrior can make Altruism redundant is kind of ridiculous.

I also like how you assume X, Y, and Z is covered by other classes when it comes to projectile walls, Stability, or Fury, but you act like no one else can stack Vulnerability.

DesertRose.2031:

However, claiming that FT/EG provides “superior support” because of that is what many consider a false/misleading statement because for many group compositions it provides worse support.

There’s less “many” of you than you think.

coglin.1867:

I have to disagree Elixir infused bombs is used ALL OVER sPvP in bunker builds.

And of coarse all of this talk is over 5% healing increase, and of coarse it is disappointing. We all no they buff things at a ridiculously slow pace, and have what I consider a very backwards formula for balance. Based on your experience with changes they have made to the profession, you really shouldn’t be surprised.

I don’t know about that. Modified Ammo seems to me a pretty significant buff to kit damage in one fell swoop. Same with the changes to Rocket Boots a couple patches ago.

I’ve been curating my FT/EG build through every major balance chance since October 2012. Sure, there were some stumbles. Kit Refinement was nerfed. Incendiary Powder was nerfed. And soon our perma Vigor through kit swapping will be gone. I’ve already begun playing without it, and I’m not dissatisfied with the results.

Because, ultimately, the FT/EG setup on the whole has been improved. Juggernaut was shifted down the tree. Flame Jet was redesigned. And Rocket Boots were overhauled, giving us a reliable alternative to Incendiary Powder with zero points in Explosives.

0/25/0/20/25 is in every way superior to the original 10/30/0/30/0 build I posted 13 months ago. And come December 10, I’ll likely be rolling with 20/30/0/20/0. I won’t have Vigor on kit swap in my build anymore, but that will come at the expense of gaining 200 Power, 5% damage increase without full Endurance, and up to a 24% damage increase from Modified Ammo—all along with Incendiary Powder. I am not in any way “disappointed” or even remotely care about the loss of Vigor on swap at this point, and ArenaNet has my full support on these changes—especially since I can just take Infused Precision if I really need Vigor.

I don’t know if ArenaNet is reading this thread, but I get the logic behind these changes, and I get the logic behind why Elixir Infused Bombs might be buffed to scale by 60% of your Healing Power. And you know what, maybe it won’t be. But even if it doesn’t, I think as a class we’ve received more than a lions share of buffs the past 3-4 months to where I cannot even be remotely disappointed regardless of what happens.

coglin.1867:

Perhaps you should seek more reasonable people to talk too. He clearly stated they were increasing its scaling by 50%. Not increasing its base scaling to 50%.

I didn’t suggest that they were increasing its scaling to 50% but that they were going to increase its scaling by an additional 50%, meaning 60% (from 10%).

coglin.1867:

As well. If there was any room for confusion, we would hope the general public would then apply common sense to figure out the rest.

Don’t be rude.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Phineas Poe.3018:

ArenaNet has a habit of being unclear in their word choice, but this is specifically what he stated.

JonPeters.5630:

Inventions XI – Elixir Infused bombs. Increased healing scaling by 50%.

Most people I’ve spoken with have interpreted that to mean 60% (10 + 50), not 15% (10 + [10 × 50%]).

Let’s hope they’re wrong. Buffing an already-useful trait by such a massive amount would be a huge mistake.

I have to disagree.

Elixir Infused Bombs is not popular in sPvP, largely because the current rate of healing per bomb drop doesn’t compete in the slightest with the condition meta. This seems like a very good move in bringing bunkers back into the game.

I’ll just say that if all this talk is really over a 5% Healing Power buff, I’ll be disappointed. What a great idea left on the table.

ArenaNet has a habit of being unclear in their word choice, but this is specifically what he stated.

JonPeters.5630:

Inventions XI – Elixir Infused bombs. Increased healing scaling by 50%.

Most people I’ve spoken with have interpreted that to mean 60% (10+50), not 15% (10+[10×50%]).

I mean, that thread was littered with thank yous related to Elixir Infused Bombs. I don’t think a 5% scaling increase is much to thank, or really anything to write home about. If that is really the case, I won’t be taking it.

It’s not how I’m intending to build mine, but that setup is viable.

I think that in PvE, 30 Inventions will massively increase your survivability to the point where points in Alchemy would be overkill. I guess at that point it’d be up to how much you value Vigor, to which you could do something like 20/0/30/10/10 for Speedy Kits and Invigorating Speed.

I’m planning on trying to go without it entirely with the new Elixir Infused Bombs, going 30/10/30/0/0. I would also do Protective Shielding or Stabilized Armor instead of Reinforced Shield, but that’s just me.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Healing Power = 1200
Elementalist: 670 / 1.35 = 496 hps
Engineer now: 265 / 0.92 = 288 hps (58,1% of Ele)
Engineer planned: 325 / 0.92 = 353 hps (71,2% of Ele)

If you have 1200 Healing Power, Elixir Infused Bombs will heal for a lot more than that.

It’s 145 + 60% of your Healing Power. With 1200 Healing Power, you’d get back 865 per bomb, not 325.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

From a damage perspective you are right, but I really doubt anyone concerned about damage is going to invest 30 trait points into Inventions. This is about group support / healing where damage is already low due to gear choices.

Why is everything all-or-nothing to you guys? I don’t see anything wrong with investing 30 Inventions for Elixir-Infused Bombs while still caring about your damage output.

Just because you run Elixir-Infused Bombs, that doesn’t mean you have to outfit yourself in maximizing Healing Power—or even stack it all.

With 30 Inventions you already have 300 Healing Power, effectively boosting your Elixir-Infused Bombs to heal for 325 per bomb.

That’s with zero Healing Power from armor/weapons/jewelry. Wear Berserker/Scholar gear if you feel like it; you’ll still be getting 325 health per bomb.

In Celestial armor (+140 all stats) this becomes 409 per bomb. You do not need 1200 Healing Power to make Elixir-Infused Bombs effective or worth taking. And it’s fully possible to run a supportive build in full Berserker. Guardians and Mesmers have been doing this for months—and so have FT/EG Engineers.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Neither will be the Engineer, unless he spends 25 more trait points for a tolal of 55.

It’s still something they cannot do. Whether it costs 55 or all 70, we judge classes on the basis of what their builds achieve on the whole—not on a partial basis.

I also don’t quite understand the drama around taking 30 Explosives and 30 Inventions. You’re not really missing out on a lot outside of additional damage from Firearms or Tools.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

“No problem, we’ll take over” say Geyser, Healing Rain and Soothing Mist (for only 5 trait points). Also Water Blast works just as well in melee as it does from 1200 range, the Engineer always has to put himself in harm’s way.

None of these are really competitive to Elixir-Infused Bombs to me.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Not every class can do everything better, but if I spend 30 trait points and gear for support only to get outhealed by the standard autoattack of another class that is wearing Berserker, I feel cheated.

I’d argue that you would once again have to examine how Water Blast works mechanically to Elixir-Infused Bombs. The two skills are balanced given each of their limitations, in my mind.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

A Grand Master trait is supposed to be build defining and worth the investment. Elixir-Infused Bombs in its current form is Master level at best and won’t be much better unless either the scaling or the base heal is increased more than planned right now.

I have to agree. I think Elixir-Infused Bombs should be lower down the tree. But I still think arguing about Water Blast being better is a textbook case of Engineers failing to see the forest for the trees.

Also, to echo Nevir’s sentiment, if people are seriously jealous of Water Blast I’d recommend actually rolling an Elementalist and seeing how useful it actually is outside of a wiki and a spreadsheet. Elementalists swap to Water Attunement for Geyser and Healing Rain … and swap right out of it. It’s a completely garbage auto-attack compared to Bomb; pretty much all of the Staff auto-attacks aren’t worth using except for Fireball.

There’s absolutely nothing to be jealous of. And once Engineers get their head out of the sand understanding that you can—believe it or not—build your character in a way that neither maximizes support or nor maximizes offense, you’ll find that there exists a happy medium between both ends of that spectrum where the Engineer truly thrives.

Singer.8740:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

personally I’m more worried about the buff to healing bombs being too powerful and resulting in future nerfs to be honest.

Interesting use of a braveheart reference

If they stick to what was announced, then you need not be: 1200 healing power scaling by 0.15 (+50% from now) will result in 325 healed/bomb for 30 trait points.
Elementalist staff autoattack heals for 370 with 0 healing power and has a scaling of 0.25 (so with 1200 it would be 670) for 0 train points.

To be fair, Water Blast is a significantly slower auto-attack with a smaller radius.

Mechanically, it’s also important to recognize that Water Blast requires a target to hit. You can drop bombs anywhere, like when you’re on the move.

yup you get 2 and a quarter auto attacks with bomb for every 1 staff ele water auto so it adds up.

Mmm… not quite that much. Water Blast has an attack speed of 1.31 sec/attack while Bomb is .92 sec/attack. So it is slower, but it’s not that slow.

It’s also important to add that, from a damage perspective, Water Blast scales by 30% of an Elementalist’s Power. Bomb scales by 125% of an Engineer’s Power. The coefficients are so drastically different. Bomb is one of the best auto-attacks in the game. Can the same be said of Water Blast?

So, yes. An Elementalist will heal for more while spamming Water Blast. But they won’t be passively stacking Vulnerability while doing it like a Bomb Engineer does, nor will they be contributing a noticeable amount of damage.

They also can’t drop Water Blast wherever they feel like it, which is what I was trying to get at earlier. Even if an Elementalist camera-locks toward the ground holding the right-mouse button spamming Water Blast, they won’t be healed from it. The way the skill works is that the heal emanates from the target hit similar to Projectile finishers shot through a Water field. Compared to Elixir-Infused Bombs, the healing potential is fairly restrictive when you cannot stand directly next to the target, or if the damage is from an indirect source.

Getting hit by an arrow cart? “Oh whelp,” says Water Blast.

So in reference to the claim:

Baron NJS.5704:

Every class can do everything we do but better

Can they?

djtool.8372:

Does it have to be about damage? I am new to dungeons and what I cobbled together was pis/shield , Heal Tur, Tk, Ek, Elix R. I thought having all that tanking and healing would be useful even if I couldn’t pound out dps.

If anyone has experience with it can you chain 3 heals from the turrets water field with that loadout? I haven’t yet but I have displayed poor timing.

If you’re using skills you can detonate like turrets/mines, you can do as many as you can fit.

I generally do Detonate Healing Turret → Magnetic Inversion → Rocket Boots though.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

personally I’m more worried about the buff to healing bombs being too powerful and resulting in future nerfs to be honest.

Interesting use of a braveheart reference

If they stick to what was announced, then you need not be: 1200 healing power scaling by 0.15 (+50% from now) will result in 325 healed/bomb for 30 trait points.
Elementalist staff autoattack heals for 370 with 0 healing power and has a scaling of 0.25 (so with 1200 it would be 670) for 0 train points.

To be fair, Water Blast is a significantly slower auto-attack with a smaller radius.

Mechanically, it’s also important to recognize that Water Blast requires a target to hit. You can drop bombs anywhere, like when you’re on the move.

Yeah, it’s definitely worth it to stack Condition Duration over Condition Damage, even if people try to prevent it with runes/food.

When roaming I run Celestial + Traveler (10%) with Koi Cake (40%), Givers weapons (10% each for total of 20%), and 30 Explosives (30%) for a total of +100% Condition Duration. Could just be mental, but I feel like I kill stuff significantly better than when I went with Condition Damage runes. For some context: I generally run Bomb Kit and Tool Kit.

Warriors aren’t much a problem for me, but I also build a little into Inventions that a lot of people don’t do, which really helps against stunlock builds.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

I would’t mind spending 30 points in Inventions if:
- Adept / Master tier had some traits that are really useful for pve (there are some really nice ones for pvp bunkers)
- Elixir Bombs scaled better with healing power

I’d say the upcoming buff to Power Shoes will be “useful.” Having +25% movement speed all the time cuts out having to take Speedy Kits for Swiftness entirely. Elixir Infused Bombs is also getting buffed in the same patch on December 10.

shimmerless.4560:

I’m aware that currently Incendiary Powder is an on-crit effect. This makes it pure random chance: opponents cannot predict when they’ll eat a high-damage burn because it could essentially proc on anything at any time.

My question is why Incendiary Powder has been left to work this way for so long when a much more reasonably designed version already exists (Ammo).

Well, I think if you take into consideration the cooldown differential, never mind the fact that you have the Flamethrower occupy one utility slot, Incendiary Ammo isn’t that much more “reasonably designed” to fit most builds.

DesertRose.2031:

Like I said in the other thread, the “elitists” will come forth if one says a false or misleading statement; and claiming FT/EG offers more/better support than GK/BK is a very debatable statement.

Well, if you’d like to show me all the GK guides out there on IntoTheMists and Guru with Fireforged Trigger, 20 points in Alchemy for longer boons, and Altruism runes, I’ll more than happy to see you link them.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe they exist. Is it possible to dress up your Engineer with Altruism runes the same as the FT/EG combo does? Certainly. Could you construct a supportive build around the Bomb Kit? Absolutely. Elixir-Infused Bombs is one of the best group-supportive traits across the entire game. You want something fairly original that Engineers bring to a group? It’s that. But does anyone actually take it? Not really. Because 30 Inventions would “kitten ” your damage, right?

That’s the underlying difference between general GK builds and mine. I believe that the FT/EG combo provides superior support precisely because it isn’t a “damage over all else” mindset. You can claim on the forums that slotting the Elixir Gun into your build offers the same support, but the fact of the matter is that juggling the skills of three different kits is not as specialized or as focused as one that swaps between only two.

Have a moment of honesty: do you actually use Fumigate regularly?

zaragoz.6351:

I do not mind the projective deflection wall, and it is somewhat useful, however having a stun-break that actually makes you more susceptible to being killed makes no sense to me…..

I agree. I’ve already suggested that they move the stunbreaker from Elixir U back onto Elixir R.

But I think Toss Elixir U should be left out of that conversation. It’s a very valuable skill in a lot of dungeons.

Forestnator.6298:

Troll or not I try to explain. The build you posted is without healing turret, right? so 1 blast finisher less.

Well that proves you definitely didn’t bother to actually read anything within the guide. You just saw the skills I listed and zipped right back here and filled this thread with pointless vitriol.

Under “Weapon and Skill Details” it says quite explicitly:

“Though ITM’s template tethered me to these options, I wish to emphasize that I switch in and out different utilities to complement my FT and EG as necessary. I similarly drop the Med Kit in favor of the Healing Turret in certain situations, and will wield the Rifle over the Pistol/Shield as needed. Rather than explaining why I made the choices I did above, I will list below all relevant options to each subset, and when to choose them for the proper situation.”

And to what I say specifically regarding how I utilize the Healing Turret:

“Healing Turret: Beyond the fact that it can be used as a group heal, it provides 2 conditions removed per overcharge across your entire group (as long as they’re within range). Because detonating your Healing Turret additionally counts as a Blast finisher, it can be used not only as a self-combo Area Heal within its own Water field, but also to help stack Might when detonated within Napalm. Because both Jump Shot and Magnetic Inversion provide additional finishers for Area Heals, actively integrate Regenerating Mist into your rotation, followed by a second Area Heal through Rocket Boots.”

Forestnator.6298:

Additional, using rocket boots as a blast finisher for might seems really wasted for me and also worse to handle for boss fights.

If you, again, had actually bothered to read the guide you’d understand why I made the choice I did:

“Acid Bomb + Rocket Boots is a good combo, especially if you’re leaping back and forth between Napalm triggering Might stacks. Keep in mind, however, that the distance between Acid Bomb’s leap FROM Napalm and Rocket Boots’ leap TO Napalm are different distances.”

In essence, it’s a perfect combination that can easily proc in Napalm—and Napalm lasts long enough that you can easily fit this combination in along with Magnetic Inversion or detonating your Healing Turret. You may see it as a “waste” but in the grander scheme of things it makes perfect sense for how the build’s Might rotation is designed and similarly is quite fun to use.

Forestnator.6298:

I also did not tell grenades have better support, I reffered on a full build.

You referred to a “full build” that could just as easily be combined with the Flamethrower in favor of the Grenade Kit. I can easily take the Bomb Kit and Elixir Gun with the Flamethrower. There’s nothing stopping me from doing that. Therefore, your claims that the FT/EG combo does “less” support is on the basis that the Grenade Kit is the difference-maker. Truth of the matter is, outside of Vulnerability stacking, there’s nothing significantly “supportive” about the kit that’s worth mentioning.

Forestnator.6298:

Anyway, I would also prefer blind and chill for offensive support then FT which gives… nothing if you use bomb kit.

Not sure why you’d ever need Chilled for anything, but even if you did, the Elixir Gun has Crippled on a significantly shorter cooldown (8 versus 20) through Elixir F for upkeep coverage.

I also think it’s important to add that the Flamethrower offers a blind as well, though I’m not sure why this really matters. Unshakable is very common in PvE, and is pretty much on every champion and legendary mob in dungeons. It reduces Blinds to 10% effectiveness, so I’m not sure how much “support” blinding really offers in the first place.

Forestnator.6298:

The hidden secret about runes of altruismus which seems like can only be used with FT and not with grenades was not on my radar, sorry.

Well, do you use them?

Forestnator.6298:

I am not sure if u ever played grenades, but if you play with bombs u will never spend much time in range because bomb#1 is you strongest autoattack. Maybe with bad playstyle but sorry again I didn’t have this on my radar again.

OK. This doesn’t make any sense. The Grenade Kit only offers superior Vulnerability stacking if you actually use it. All the time. If you’re only using it for Shrapnel Grenade and Freeze Grenade, the difference is marginal. Why even use it at all, then?

Forestnator.6298:

Remember I just answered to your post, not to OP post. And I do still have the opinion: FT/EG provides not more support then grenades + bombs + EG – especially if you take medikit instead of healing turret (which makes no sense if you talk about support, lol).

Already explained this point.

Lupanic.6502:

- Elixir U stunbreaker should be on the toss not on the elixir itself. The toss should be replaced my something different. I never see someone using it. The stunbreaker + Frenzy is not very smart. You use a stunbreaker if you are in trouble and with this elixir you get frenzy while you are in trouble. Not very useful.

I very much disagree with this. Elixir U never leaves my bar in fractals, precisely because of Toss Elixir U working as a projectile wall.

Forestnator.6298:

Please read what I worte: the actual meta is healing turret+ grenades + bombs+ EG. You see bombs? Bombs, yes = blast finisher = Fire field = burning.

Yes, and?

That still doesn’t explain your argument that a GK/BK/EG build offers more blast finishers. In my mind it’s exactly the same contributions, except with Runes of Altruism and 20 Alchemy, mine last longer. If you’re really that concerned with maximizing your Might stacking, you shouldn’t run the Grenade Kit at all and just go with the Bomb Kit, Elixir Gun, and Rocket Boots/Throw Mine similar to the other build I run (which is also in my signature).

You miss out on a few stacks of Vulnerability, but it’s a worthy exchange. But the OP wasn’t looking for that type of build, so I didn’t intend to post it here until you started breathing down my neck about Grenade Kit doing better (lol) “support.”

Forestnator.6298:

Range is no argument. If you play grenades and bombs u simply use grenades on close range or middle range.

I’d say range is an argument, because Fumigate is at 450 range while Grenade Kit users will many times put themselves at 1500. You can argue that using the Bomb Kit will put you close to mobs at times, but that’s not where you spend the majority of your time unless you feel like dodging a lot and making Enduring Damage worthless.

Forestnator.6298:

But better support? How better support compared to Healing turret + grenades + bombs + EG?

Your build gives:

- less vulnerability
- less slow down
- less party heal
- less blast finisher (means less aoe might and less aoe heal)
- less damage
- less blind

It gives more:

- nothing.

…?

What do you mean, “less Blast finishers?”

The Flamethrower doesn’t have a blast finisher, but neither does the Grenade Kit. All things being equal, they offer the same contribution. The FT actually has a Fire field of its own, so ideally it offers more “support” on that end than the Grenade Kit does; FT Engineers also take 20 Alchemy for Deadly Mixture, so their Might boons lasts longer.

This build actually contributes more Might thanks to Altruism, and simultaneously gives everyone group Fury.

But ultimately, it comes down to the fact that FT Engineers simply use their Elixir Gun more often. Fireforged Trigger is not commonly taken with GK builds, and even if it was they’re often not within range of allies to properly utilize Fumigate for condition removal.

Also not sure what you mean about less party heals. I put the Med Kit in my ITM guide, but I use both it and the Healing Turret—which I explicitly said, if you had actually bothered to read it.

Krag.6210:

The problem is, by dropping grenades, you lose your ranged weapon

When do you absolutely need a ranged weapon except for Grawl Shaman and the F/U Nightmare tree?

I’d recommend trying out the current FT/EG combo setup. Less damage, but better support.

Click me.

lunyboy.8672:

ellesee.8297:

the class doesn’t need buffs.

In what sense? Do you think engineer is balaced for PvE, WvW, and PvP?

I don’t feel underpowered in WvW or PvP.

30/0/10/20/10 gives me permanent Swiftness, a massive damage reduction while stunned, and passive regeneration along with the ability to spec either into the Bomb Kit (for zergs and roaming) or the Grenade Kit (for tower defense/offense).

And come December 10 I think I’ll be going 30/0/20/20/0 getting a constant 25% movement speed buff, too (along with another 100 Toughness).

Haven’t yet ironed out how my FT build will go in PvP/WvW, but I definitely think we’re in a pretty good place on that end right now.

darkchicken.8692:

I really feel like the engineer is left behind in all these new skins being added. There is almost nothing i wanna aim for. No legendaries, No ascended weapons , No armor skin except the one im actually wearing…

Legendaries are definitely worth getting given that you can alter the stats of them at any given time. Their individual weapon strength may not count toward the damage of your kits, but the rest of the stats still matter.

Redball.7236:

People like this may me laugh, rather than accept their class might have a few problems, they defend every single point to the death.

In the end, they’re the reason why this class doesn’t get buffed.

I have a hard time believing that they balance the class around what we write on here.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

1) but we aren’t talking about other games balance so really the reference to WoW, and FFXI has no place here.

Fair enough; I just don’t understand the precedent you’re coming from. Age-old MMOs in traditional “trinity” archetypes even still made use of classes that bend the rules. The Engineer is perhaps the biggest bender of conventions—both in its comprehensive “role” abilities and its direct rejection of stereotypical fantasy aesthetic (using flamethrowers against dragons).

Infamous Darkness.3284:

2) this discussion is specific to dungeons, I agreed with you that engineer is good in open world pve, wvw, and spvp, the area I believe they are lacking is dungeons.

Well, that is your belief.

I also brought up open-world content because you referred to “larger” groups. Not sure you can get much “larger” than open-world content with 80+ players to a map; unsurprisingly, we contribute just fine.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

its just in guild dungeons where the group is trying to min/max we wouldn’t be the first choice

By that you mean your guild dungeon groups.

I also think there’s more than one way to “min/max” content; fitting an Engineer into your group in a lot of ways is a minimal investment that—as I’ve already illustrated—provides the maximum role “effort” that you look for in a party member. Fact of the matter is: an Engineer nicely rounds out any group whether they’re taken first or fifth.

I think a lot of reasons why players deny—or decry—Engineers has a lot to do with the fact that very few players know how to play the class to the fullest potential and make them as useful as a class like Warrior who drops a Banner and leaves it there.

But the question framing this conversation is not what the “easiest” class to play is, so that’s a moot point.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

4) we have the most blast finishers that is true, we have a lot of variety in this area but an ele can bring only 1 less blast finisher while providing fury as well as might through fire fields, not to mention LH 3rd auto attack is a blast finisher essentially on a 1 and a half second cooldown.

And?

Guardians have a Blast finisher in Mighty Blow they can activate every 4 seconds when traited. They also have a ton of Fire fields in Hallowed Ground and Purging Flames (which is how I play mine in Zerker/Scholar gear). Other people go the full AHEM route.

All classes are flexible. What’s your point?

Infamous Darkness.3284:

5) temple of grenth is open world PvE again not a dungeon, I have also managed to solo the legendary risen priest of grenth and duo the defend but that has nothing to do with dungeons.

edit: on the temple of Balthazar in straights it is pretty easy if you use npc given weapon not trying to tell you how to play but it is a tool that can be very useful in this event if you choose to use it.

I’ll direct you to a different URL: right here.

It’s not the the Risen Giant that crushes the Pact. It’s Necro wells. Because most players actually don’t know how to use Water fields.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

but see that is where our disagreement lies other professions can do things that no other profession can pull off, while engineer has access to many of the tools of other professions have and can use them pretty effectively they will never be able to close the gap especially in larger parties because it means everything engineer can do, can be done by another profession with an added bonus ability that the engineer wouldn’t possess.

I’ve already responded to this point, establishing:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You guys obsess over what the ideal setup is when you fail to recognize that taking an Engineer fills any hole in the group regardless of what the other 4 players build themselves around. I consider that the ideal class to play.

Does taking an Engineer absolve the group of all its wall reflect necessities in fractals? Absolutely not. We cannot single-handedly manage that. But taking an Engineer over a Ranger certainly helps fill that hole, while contributing in other areas that Rangers cannot.

Yes, Rangers can give their party 150 Precision while we can’t. Rangers have to outperform us in some area with some kind of group buff—otherwise why would you ever take one? Each class has their own strengths. Ours is just relative to our role coverage.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

but as the groups get bigger and bigger there is less need for a jack of all trades and more benefit to bringing along a class that specializes in each task that is needed to complete the encounter.

Not sure I buy that. Jack of all trades are common in end-game scenarios across other MMOs. Based off my own personal experience in WoW and FFXI, Shamans and Red Mages when I played those games had absolutely zero issues joining groups—in PvE or PvP.

Tequatl is perhaps the largest top-tier encounter we’ve witnessed in this game, and I certainly contributed plenty on the end of defense. During Sanctum of Rall’s first server kill with EG, CDS, and GSCH (sorry if I’m forgetting anyone else—there were so many!), I turned on my own blue chip and kept my turrets alive. Super Elixir and Healing Turret didn’t single-handedly keep them alive. I had a lot of help, of course. But our extensive CC control through Overcharged Shot, Net Shot, and Air Blast simultaneously kept champs/vets off the turreteers while I was healing them. And the truth of the matter is that the work that I contributed was valued enough to be asked to do it the next few times we worked together to defeat Tequatl. I would have never been able to do that kind of thing on my Guardian or my Warrior.

Engineers are one of the best auxiliary support classes in the game given our multi-purpose ability to contribute to #1-6 within the construction of one, singular build. With any kit focus (though Bomb Kit in my mind is best). We have the best combo field coverage and the most blast finishers of any class. Me and my guild leader have alone been all that was necessary to keep Jonez alive during the Temple of Grenth second phase. So many people complain that Temple of Balthazar is now too hard, but guess what? If you land all your blast finishers in Water fields as an Engineer, we contribute heavily to keeping the Pact alive, perhaps better than any other class can as an individual player.

I disagree with your assertions that jack of all trades classes will be phased out, and I can guarantee you that whenever they start creating instanced top-tier content, Engineers are going to be just as commonly ran in our guild runs as any other class. And we will not suffer for it.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

what can engineer do that benefits the group that no other group members or as a full group without an engineer in the party can do?

Nothing. That is what makes it a “jack of all trades,” right? Our role coverage is better than any other class, but we’re not as effective at is as one class (i.e., Guardian) is at a specified role. Except maybe Vulnerability stacking.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

I am not complaining, just stating a fact. A lot of people have been writing of “perma vigor” through Infused Precision, while this is only virtually possible for a very specific build.

I don’t understand. How is it any less possible putting 10 points into Firearms compared to 10 points in Tools?

Infamous Darkness.3284:

here I thought we were debating the pros and cons of the most efficient dungeon group.

That’s what I thought too, but apparently you seem to be more focused on telling us how many people in your guild play Engineers as though that’s relevant. Unless you’re indicating that the low number of players speaks to something?

Infamous Darkness.3284:

based on the post I just quoted above yours I believe my assumption was pretty accurate(also me and lunyboy are in the same guild and there are only 3 ppl who play engineer regularly in our guild including him and me).

So your guild speaks for the general perception of Engineers across the entire game? OK.

DesertRose.2031:

Do certain people in this thread really believe an Engineer with Toss Elixir U can replace a Guardian with Wall of Reflection and Shield of the Avenger or a Mesmer with Feedback, Temporal Curtain and Phantasmal Warden?
Do certain people in this thread really believe an Engineer with Toss Elixir B can replace a Guardian with “Stand Your Ground!” and Hollowed Ground?

Did anyone say that?

spoj.9672:

Id argue that those of you who are disgreeing with us prefer playing engi too much to lose your bias. Either that or you havent given enough other classes a good chance and learnt what they can do.

I play my Guardian enough to invest in a full set of tier 3 human cultural armor. I’ve given my Guardian a good enough chance to invest in getting over a hundred Charged Lodestones and making him Foefire’s Power (back when they were several gold each), running CoE more times than I can count.

And I’ve learned enough of what he’s capable of doing with a Sword/Focus build to the point where I threw down for both Whisperblade and Spirit Links. I have everything short of a legendary weapon on my Guardian.

Please stop insinuating things about those who disagree with you and just respect a difference of opinion. My goodness. I love my Guardian and my Warrior, and I take them into dungeons just as frequently as I do my Engineer. Simple fact of the matter is I actually take my Engineer into dungeons and view him just as valuable.

But somehow that makes me “biased?”

OK. Because that makes sense.

Keen.9253:

As they are today, kits dmg are not influenced by your equiped weapons or stat, but have a flat dmg by your lvl.

This is not true.

Kits have their own Weapon Strength, which is why Ascended weapons aren’t an important factor for us. Unless you truly value +4 Power upgrading your pistol that much.

They absolutely scale by the rest of the stats of the weapon you wield and the armor you wear. Kits absolutely scale by Power. Why else would Juggernaut stack Might?

I carry with me multiple sets of armor: Celestial, Berserker, Rabid, and Soldier, depending on the build I’m running and whether I’m in WvW or PvE. The output of my kits absolutely change depending on what gear I’m wearing.

As for the “only scaling by condition damage,” I think you’re confusing kits for turrets.

Keen.9253:

— kits dont scale with power

Yes they do?

cdimgcc.1638:

The IP nerf is not understandable for me at all.

Just going to re-quote myself.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Look at Incendiary Powder though. You may say that it moving up the tree is a nerf, but I think a lot of FT users are failing to understand that “making” you take another 10 points into Explosives gives you 100 additional Power and 10% additional Condition Duration. There’s absolutely nothing stopping you from taking it either. Juggernaut is a Master tier trait. Deadly Mixture is a Master tier trait. You have the points to take it, so who exactly is hurting from this?

• Grenade Kit Engis seem pretty much obsessed with Shrapnel at this point. I’ve already had that discussion with them, and I was laughed out of the thread when I tried to argue that IP is superior. Now it gets “nerfed” and everyone complains? Makes no sense to me. Where were these people back then?

• Bomb Kit Engis take Forceful Explosives. Even after the buff, it’s still the ideal trait to take. You still have room for IP as your Master trait, and then you choose (the nerve!) between Short Fuse and Explosive Powder. But the funny thing is that this choice is almost always obvious.

• Here’s why: As a bomber you don’t even need Short Fuse in PvE because taking the time to drop anything other than your auto-attack or Fire Bomb is actually a DPS loss outside of stacking Vulnerability. And you don’t really need Explosive Powder in sPvP/WvW because Engis don’t even take the Bomb Kit for Power builds. They take it for Fire/Smoke/Concussion Bomb.

So if FT users have room to take it, and if GK/BK Engis have the wiggle room of 30 Explosives to take it, then what is everyone crying about? You don’t need Speedy Kits to get permanent Vigor, and you don’t even need it any more (a la Power Shoes) to get around quickly on the map.