Guild Wars 2

“pets can hit very hard. my cats get far more killing blows than i do, & it is because i spent the time to learn how to set up their attacks appropriately. my jaguar can routinely put out 10k damage during stealth & the lynx pounce will often hit for 4k + bleeds on its own. not to mention my build keeps fury up on pet nearly 100% of the time, giving them an 85% crit rate. i realize this isn’t insta-gib dps, but this is also independent of anything i am doing myself.” -faeral

Trust me I know pets “can” hit hard, when they hit. I’ve made Pet-centric builds that beat your numbers handily. Want a pet to crit 100% of the time? There’s a build for that. Want a pet that keeps up ~17-25 stacks of might at all times? There’s a build for that. There are builds that can turn you little buddy into a true dps monster.

Small issue though. In PvP, they don’t hit often. If they did it’d be fantastic… they could mess folk up but real good. But they don’t, so they don’t. You can avoid a lot of the pets attacks even when crippled by just keep on moving.

Is your BM build going to absolutely murder that keyboard turning newbie you’re fighting in random sPvP? Oh dear lord yes it sure is. Is it going to be even remotely effective against someone who is mildly competent? Not even kinda.

So, I think our list of things that Ranger do best has grown though.
Best at being mediocre.
Best at killing keyboard turners with one keypress. (Pet attack)

Lets keep it comming, what else is ranger best at? >.>

Haha, I remember this episode of the personal story very clearly. I died so many times on my thief. The thing just wreaked my face hardcore. I tried respeccing, and changed my gear up a little. No avail. In the end it just took me trial and error until I found a strategy that worked…. and you know what finally did the trick? Shortbow’s aoe poison field. I just ran around the portal in a circle dropping the field, and eventually the harpy died from poison damage alone… it took bloody forever, and several tries… because even one slight misstep, and game over.

Easily the most difficult storyline fight I’ve had on any of my characters ever. Easily. And it so randomly placed in mid level play…. still learning the profession, possibly the game… fewer tools really available to you. Just out of left feild, BAM hardmode in your face.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I understand the frustrations that come with inaccurate descriptions. I’ve worked a lot on the skill “fact” system to bring it up to a good point, but I know there is more we can do. This includes making all buffs, upgrades, sigils, and traits affect skill tooltip numbers (some already do), adding additional skill facts based on traits, as well as adding the same or similar “fact” system to trait descriptions.

There are a couple reasons why trait/skill descriptions aren’t as accurate as they could be. They were constantly changing up until ship for balance and polish. This means some of the descriptions are just out of date. Also, each time a number is changed within the text, it needs to get localized again. This means it’s more efficient to make them a little more vague to lessen the localization cost and protect ourselves if that number needs to change again. That’s why skills have “facts” instead of baking the numbers into the descriptions. The last reason it’s difficult to keep skills and traits accurate is because of technical and time limitations. Our skills are complicated, and it takes designers a lot of time to make sure the numerous parts are correct. Sometimes we don’t even have the ability to make the facts accurate (summon’s damage was a tricky one).

I’m personally very passionate about skill descriptions. We know there are improvements that can be made and I’ll push to get time to revisit them because, well, I just like them

Much of the fact checking is being done by players. There are hosts of resources scattered throughout the interwebs with databases and whatnot. Many of us in the player base have this weird urge to understand game mechanics down to the most trivial detail (myself included).

A good place to begin the process of tooltip corrections would be the profession bug lists on these very forums, as I am sure that many of the “bugs” are actually skills/traits working as intended, but the tooltips are just inaccurate.

There really are a host of tooltips that are just plain outright wrong though, and those should be the first priority imo. Vague descriptions at least aren’t going to make people think the game is broken, it’ll make then curious and try it out themselves. Incorrect tooltips get people upset and diminish the quality of the game.

Step 1) Fix the tooltips that say something that is plain wrong.

Step 2) Fix the tooltips that are worded in a misleading fashion.

Step 3) Add specifics/clarifications to tooltips that are vague.

Step 4) Be awesome.

Competition. Part of the appeal of MMOs is the social aspects, and many players want to feel exceptional, or at least competetive. In most games, there are advantages you can earn by completing massive time sinks, but not so much in this one.

This lets people compete on a much more even playing feild, but it causes some issues. First, the people who really aren’t as good as they want to think they are are faced with that cold hard truth, because in other games, these are very often people who will dedicate more time to earning the advantages in the game time sinks… coupled by having more time to actually be cometing instead of being consumed by said sinks.

Just my 2c.

2 crafts wont give you 40 levels. Will it? That seems much… meh, whatever.

Try leveling by only gathering nodes. >.>
Or… By WvW, or try leveling in a different area… or by exploring or… many options, you can even go a full burst/mobility spec and use food/xp booster + killstreak booster and grind mobs for xp… it’s really pretty effctive for a while.

Ok, let me get this strait. You are saying that rangers cannot do anything particularly well enough to go to a niche role and thus they are jack-of-all-trade. You may not know this, but that is exactly what I was saying.

The only difference being, that they’re not particularly best at being a jack of all trades either. They’re just best at being mediocre. (Which is what I specifically said in my post)

So besides basically agreeing with me that rangers don’t do anything better than anyone else…what are you telling us in your post? That you can pick up odd stats and still be effective??

Fist off, “attack” isn’t even a real stat. Yes, it shows up on your hero pane, but it doesn’t actually do anything mechanically. It is a fake stat… so telling me what your attack is is useless. Power? Now that is a real stat. Attack doesn’t do anything. Secondly, there are quite a number of builds in several proffesions that can use Power/Toughness/Healing to very good use. So, yeah.. you’re just wrong there. And only useless idiot flair around like… useless idiots. Doesn’t matter what spec/build/proff/game… if they’re flailing around uselessly… they just are. Sort of irrelevant, though, isn’t it?

And finally… stop being hostile and wrong. Take your pick, it is totally cool if you act like you know everything, you know, if you do. But acting condescending while being ignorant is just funny, imo. But it is also a little sad. Like watching someone trip and fall, you chuckle at first… but then a little guilt stirs and you wish it had just not happened.

saurus.8290:

are you blind, trolling or just …..?

1. he stop zerg from capping supply ALONE
2. he still can kill players and they cant kill thief

I’m leaning towards blind. He was oblivious to what was actually happening in the video, and what it was showing.

He also seems to think putting CDs on thief weapon skills has a place in this game. Not sure if he noticed… the design of the class was to specifically not do that? Oh sweet innocent blissful ignorance… how wonderful it must be.

Edit; forgot to add… Slic, the thief with P/D in the vid… he has been playing rogue/assassin/thief type characters for years in different games, he knows what he is doing, and is exceptionally good.

Yeah, exactly what this guy said, except.. you know, not.

Rangers play in all aspects of the game, they just don’t do it “well”. I challenge you to tell me one thing the ranger does best… just one. I’m sure you can answer; the only problem is that your answer is going to be wrong.

The only people who think rangers have a niche are the people who haven’t played other professions. They simply don’t know enough about what everyone else can do, and don’t understand why the ranger versions pale in comparison.

You know what though, I may actually be wrong, myself. I’m pretty sure Rangers are best at something after all, being mediocre.

Honestly though, anyone who says Rangers aren’t broken simply don’t pay attention to what is happening in the game. Look at the Ranger bug sticky for details. It isn’t that someone is a bad player that their character is effected by bugs and glitches and their skills don’t work… that is an inappropriate and misguided statement. It just means they are actually paying attention, not blissfully ignorant and oblivious.

Cerise.9045:

Having the ranger pet not attack anything is making my ranger perform better.
Go figure.

I found this to be true as well. Only using the pet for F2 boons/control and keeping it on passive at all other times. You mentioned one reason, that it is alive longer this way, so you can benefit from quickness more consitently. I’ve found, personally for me, the second reason is that they act as more of a partial meat shield when thy are next to you, lets you duck behind them more often to avoid ranged hits.

Kinda like bringing your own pillar to hump for LOS wherever you go.

Bell is correct.

Once you reach 100% uptime on burning, any extra sources or extra duration are wasted.

But it is a good combo regardless, you can add a good chunk of burning time onto something this way. (Think PvP/Veteran+ Mobs)

The only thing I would question, is are you really using SB+ QZ still? O_o
The shortbow auto attack only gets like half the effect from QZ as every other weapon/proff in the game… it is probably just a bug… but still.

A few things.

Sharing a build, at any time, will increase the number of people who know of the build.

A large portion of the play base knowing a build indicates that the build is popular/unpopular.

If you have a favorite spec, which works perfectly for “you”, sharing it may potentially increase its popularity/unpopularity.

Specs that are too heavily played are always inevitably nerfed in the never ending FotM nerf/buff cycle in games.

(So, given all that… why would you give some guy kitten for saying he is loath to share builds he enjoys? It is actually very self destructive to share builds you really enjoy… if it causes too many other people to share your fun, then the devs will stamp that kitten out quick)

Zebulous.2934:

After some thought; If I only care about condition damage I should just get six different runes that each add +11 condition damage as the first effect. By pairing three different runes I get the secondary effects, but limit myself to +33 condition damage on six armor slots; when I could have +66 condition damage on six armor slots without secondary effects… assuming there are six different runes that give +11 condition damage…

Yes, exactly.

I just want to add though (If you even check back here), that once you start using Major but especially superior Runes, sets really start to be better than 6 individual runes. So you’ll really need to shop around and see what combination works best for you.

Sdric.8526:

---

I personally do like the following solution:

There were several topic which suggested pets as constant companions which dont fight but grant you an extra skill (current F2)and a base stat buff.
Example:
A.) Hawk grants you 15% speed; 10% condition damage; F2: Calls a Hawk who applies bleeding to your target (like the horn’s hunters Call)
B.) A Drakehound grants you 10% toughness; 10% power; F2: Immobilizes your target (range starts at your current position)
C.) A Brown Bear grants you 20%vitality; F2: removes a condition.
D.) A Devourer grants 5% range F2: Adds poison damage

Basically:
*Pets are untargetable “Minipets”
*Pets don’t attack anymore
*Each pet grants your several stat buffs though.
-It can be either one-strong buff, or smaller buffs to several stats.
*The F2 ability remains the same, but it’s range starts at your character.
—————————————————————————————————————-

The permanent companion concept still is part of the class.
Anet advertised Ranger as a class which was able to adept to many situations, switchable skills and stat-boni perfectly fulfill this concept
—————————————————————————————
Sidenote:
Ranger; Greatsword; Maul-animation: fits perfectly into this concept!

I love this. I really have no words to describe how much I love this.

Fate.8673:

That’s actually a very valid post gadenp.

First, though Ranvo, you mention Thieves and LDB spam. That’s a one trick pony build. Bleeds are pretty much the ONLY condition they can spam. Bleeds which count as one condition and can be removed that way.

And yes Initiative wise you can spam LDB. But there is a delay after each cast where it CANNOT be combod into another one. You are vulnerable to CC (Point blank shot being perfect here, for the LB haters) for ~1sec between casts.

You’re talking damage here. Again. Damage. Yes Thieves will surpass us in damage. Their AoE bleed stacking will do more over time than us. I’m fine with that.

But they don’t have AoE, BURNING (this is a BURST condition), Chill, Poison, Immobilize, Immobilize+Bleeds.

Also Quickness. I haven’t used this even though its been key to every build I’ve ever rolled on Ranger, but we have the most access to quickness in the game (reliable, because I know thieves have a built in Sigil of Rage trait), every 16-20 seconds. This alone can make us time our bursts effectively and finish people off. When SB QZ is fixed, it will give us the most burst more OFTEN (how often can a warrior frenzy+100B? How often can a Thief set-up his backstab burst?) from RANGED.

Offhand (and your link is broken) I am not aware how Thieves have access to 100% Vigor. Yes they have a form of “evade while doing damage” just like we have a form of “single target burst.” But I’d argue ours is better. We can chain our evades, our pet is doing damage while we are evading, and we have control built into our aoe damage while evading.

Hrm. Well, it’s a 0/20/0/20/30 build, it picks up signet use for reduced signets 20% and +2 init on signet use. Couple with the trickery +4 init on heal trait, gives +6 init on the signet heal, which has (now) a 12 sec cd. Couple with the gain vigor (10 sec) on heal trait (Vigorous Recovery, Acrobatics line)…which gets bumped to 12 sec from trait +20% boon duration. 100% uptime if use heal on cd. Could pick up the vigor on steal trait (Bountiful Theft, 15 sec AOE vigor, Trickery line) if you want to truly guarantee 100% uptime. But that’s excessive imo.
It brings the thief’s dodge capability up to par with the ranger who specs for 50% endurance and 100% vigor uptime. And yes… LDB has a pause where you can get hit, but every evade does, though some are smaller than others, true. However, I must say, LDB while under quickness is complete invulnerability for as long as your init holds out, which can be a considerable string of time if done right.
Utility slot, can be filled with a venom (though I wouldn’t, for my taste), if “AOE” immobilize/chill/whatever is desired. The one thing you were right on was burning, thieves have a stark lack of it. And AOE conditions besides bleed/poison are not “readily” available. But, the cool perk about being able to execute near continuous LDBs… whirl finishers. So you can AOE finishers all day long, which is pretty potent in its own right.
I do agree too that Ranger has the most readily available quickness. The attack speed of shortbow and the abundance of quickness was, in fact, the draw of why I ended up maining a Ranger. The blurred attacks because of so much speed, lightning fast strikes like a barrage of destruction, death of a thousand cuts style combat is exactly what I loved the most about Ranger. While the quickness may still be there, the feel of the class is dead to me now, and I’m saddened for it. But I digress.
I really do think Rangers do conditions well, and that they do evades/dodges well too. But at the very least Thief is equal in those categories. (Though I still think thief can evade more often/readily) Rangers only real edge, I’d say, is that single target CCs don’t “fully” control them, as the pet is still free the wreak havoc. They can also use LoS to a greater extent in that regard too, because they are partially in 2 places at once.
But when it comes to potential output they’re behind, even in the things they are good at.

I might be wrong here. But it looks to me like the Op used poor word choices, and instead of “finisher combo” meant an “execute” type skill. You know, something that has increased effectiveness when a target is near death.

We have LOTS of combo finishers. Lots. No one can be that oblivious right?

Fate.8673:

The last part, and all parts of this thread like that, are my frustration directed at people saying “y ranger, re-roll warrior thief.” They are people that come in and go “I want to do what a warrior/thief does best on my Ranger, and I can’t do it as well as them so qq.” I’m trying to get those people to understand that this isn’t the class for them, Warrior/THIEF is.

Thief for yourself. Is evasion, just simple “dodge” what you want out of class? Yeah Thieves “dodge” is better than ours. But show my what synergy they have in their traits or skills that make them TANKY in between dodges. LDB can not be chained and is melee and costs 5 initiative. Shortbow 3 does mediocre damage while evading and then they have no points left to use cluster if thats what you spam (which is horribly slow at ranged anyway).

Snip

Evasion/Mid-Range control/Skirmishing. Doing damage WHILE dodging. Not being paper when our dodges run out (Thief). Not being unable to stick to our target if kited (Warrior).

I just think the anger is being misdirected. I think there are some (yourself included) that are dissatisfied with the current state of the Ranger with the bugs and nerf and are taking it out on our class design unfairly by looking at other classes at saying “well look what THEY can do. What do WE have compared to that? NOTHING.” To say we have nothing is unfair.

Then there is the other half that is angry, because they wanted damage and when that went away with a nerf+bug, they became frigid and unwilling to accept any other style of play the ranger has to offer. Those people need to roll another class, or wait for the SB to be fixed and keep on playing that one spec into the ground.

I’m not “dismissing” any opinion thats well reasoned and shows me how the Ranger falls short compared to other classes. I’m enjoying trying to convince you and others the way our evasion and style is different than a Thieves’. I am “dismissing” people who should not be in this class or forum because they are approaching the Ranger by simplifying it and wanting it to be good at what THEY want it to be good at.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAoY6YlcmKPncy5E+5EymiKUo8eQWoVY1pgrsKA;TwAAzCpogxAjAGrPOfk+sqYEwehZFA

This thief build in fact can chain LDB repeatedly for basically ever. A few things can be swapped around on it too, but that’s the general idea. Bleed aoe condition spec, a huge ridiculous number of evades while doing damage. I forgot the sigils, hmm… Agony/Earth work best. Makes for faster bleed stacking, and 14 sec duration on LDB bleeds, which is pretty nasty.

That’d be at least 4700 bleed damage (over time) per LDB per target, minimum (assuming not removed, ofc). This spec can chain 4 LDBs at the open of combat, due high Init total, and increased Init regen rate. Afterwards can activate signets, or steal to add more, in an actual AOE environment, with multiple targets, LDB often regens 2 init from use, but almost guaranteed 1 regen, it’s general net cost is roughly only 3 though, after comp for that regen… toss in the 6 init every 12 sec from heal sig, 2 init per 10 from trait, you’ll very…very…very rarely after minutes of continuous fighting find you run out of init. It’s like the LDB energizer bunny.

Not saying it’s a perfect spec by any means, but if you like AOE conditions while evading, this spec is unbeatable by anything I’ve yet seen in game. It by itself can dish out a full 25 stack of bleeds in an AOE, and keep them up a very large portion of the time, even in sustained fights….all while evading. That doesn’t even consider the potential 100% vigor uptime and (effective) reduced dodge endurance cost. Basically, what I am saying… is that the dodges don’t run out.

But to address your earlier reply to me; Yes, at some points in my rant I was exaggerating and being disingenuous. The ranger isn’t “actually” the devs whipping boy to beat on when they need to vent. It just feels like it lately. And most of the stuff I mentioned about not caring about what others complain about wasn’t meant to imply that you do, just that I suspected you potentially “might”, and if you (or really anyone) does, my advice was simply to not let it bother you. I didn’t mean it to come across harshly or judgmental in any way if it did. I am moderately frustrated, and only am because I do in fact enjoy my ranger (thematically, at least), but feel like it is being neglected in ways that astonish me. I know that developing and maintaining a game this complex isn’t a small task, time and energy expenditures just to keep it running are immense… I am generally very patient and forgiving. I am reacting to a shift in demeanor from the developers, though…. and from that most of my “doom and gloom” stems.

Jon P Quote from one of those links.

“I think that’s why professions are important as it gives you an automatic identity at the beginning of what you’re doing, that this is my character, and for a role playing game that is also really important. Inevitably, there are people who love the ‘jack of all trades’ but it’s hard to build a system like that which doesn’t result in just a few setups.”

I’m pretty sure he forgot his own wisdom.

Ranger is the runner up in running away! And evades in general. Guess who beats us in this, our coveted we-do-it-gud category, much like they do in nearly every category?

Lol… /facepalm

Change the trait from 30% pet speed into “Pets can attack while moving”…. problem solved?

You could still outrun/kite pets if you where specifically trying to…. not simply by moving 5 feet every other second.

Trait in BM should reduce aoe damage pets take. Pets should deal slightly less damage, and have more health/toughness. Or worse case scenario… just take away to 60second cd penalty for if they die.

And I really like the idea of being able to stow the pet permanently for a self buff. Could even be a trait, Marksman, probably.

And omg, make spirits tougher for the love of all that’s holy…. or let them also get BM pet benefits or something. Maybe having 300 extra toughness/vitality would make a difference. (after hp doubling, that’d be 6k extra hp) And if pet aoe damage reduction talent in BM is implemented, they’d take less aoe too… might make them actually function and creates inter trait line synergies open up.

Weird kitten would happen, though. Rangers could be…like, you know, viable in support roles. Their pets would function more often and whatnot, oh…and a ranger could instead focus on itself if it wanted. Oh the humanity, there would actually be different flavors of ranger!!

It is sad to me that Ranger players think a 4-5k crit is “a lot of damage”.

It is a decent chunk, sure. But a lot? No… no no no.

You fully spec into somethhing, to get the most dps out of a pet, and really think 4-5k should be the damage it does? And, that that is a “lot”…

That says more about the state of rangers than any amount of complaint could.

Carighan.6758:

I love how many Rangers seem to assume that Rangers should be Archers.
If they were intended to be, I’d wager they’d be called “Archer”. Incidentally, Warriors are much closer to an actual Archer / Line Infantry class, which I thought was pretty obvious from even but a cursory glance at the wiki. And I stick with my general opinion that people who do not research the games they bug beforehand got exactly zero right to complain about pretty much anything, later.

Anyhow, the big issue is probably the pet bugs. Just as with other classes using pets, Rangers are currently hamstrung by a slew of pathing / lag / obstruction bugs in relation to pets. This is the same for Elementalists, Mesmers, Necros, even all Humans.
Sure, in the case of the Ranger it has a larger impact – due to the permanence of the pet – but the fix will probably be code changes affecting all pets, anyhow. Hence it’s probably not a specific issue.

Quote from GW2 Main site, description of Ranger profession. Bold mine.

“Rangers rely on a keen eye, a steady hand, and the power of nature itself. Unparalleled archers, rangers are capable of bringing down foes from a distance with their bows. With traps, nature spirits, and a stable of loyal pets at their command, rangers can adapt to any situation.”

I don’t think it is unrealistic to expect the ranger to be playable as an archer. It is described as one, with the exact word “archer”… unparalled even…. I don’t think people are “assuming” they should be so, I think we have been told they are.

Laef.4519:

I come to these boards looking for advice, different builds and what not but all I read is that the ranger is broken and that I shouldn’t bother playing it and roll X class instead.

That is the advice you are finding, and there is a reason for that. It is good advice.

But people don’t like good advice, they want advice that agrees with them. You don’t want to hear that ranger has more problems than it’s worth, you don’t want to hear other professions have it better. But it doesn’t stop it from being true.

The honest answer to “what is a good build”? Is reroll warrior or thief, and then put points aimlessly into your traits, and you’ll have a good build.

But you want a good build on Ranger, eh? Well here is good news! There is one good build on ranger… it is mostly good, any way. Well, more good than bad, at least. It is the famed trap spec. Nearly every ranger has it, or some not very different version of it. It is a pretty straightfoward build too, you spec for your traps. Put some trap skills on your bar, and equip some gear that does good condition damage, and a pair of weapons that do conditions… and you’re set.

Nuwen.7615:

Don’t overlook this offhand it can be extremely useful in the right hands. Some people think Axe 4 is meh but it is our only TRUE projectile finisher (maybe dagger 5 is too, dunno) and can be thrown through fields for a double application of Burning, Chill, Regen, etc.

It is far from the only projectile finisher. I will list them for you.

Greatword
Crippling Throw (100%)

Long Bow
Long Range Shot (20%)
Rapid Fire (20%x10)
Hunter’s Shot (100%)
Point Blank Shot (100%)

Short Bow
Crossfire (20%)
Quick Shot (100%)
Crippling Shot (100%)
Concussion Shot (100%)

Axe
Ricochet (20%)
Splitblade (20%x5)
Path of Scars (100%) The one you suggest is our only “TRUE” finisher.

Dagger
Crippling Talon (100%)

We also can

Spiders
Spit (20%)
Entagling Web (100%)

Carrion Devourers
Twin Darts (20%x2)
Whiptail’s F2 Poinonous Barbs (20%)

I’m not going into aquatic, because… well, aquatic combat is lame.

Then there is the issue with scaling. Ok, just a pet peeve here… but I have to toss it out there because its a big one for me. But 3 second bleeds suck for scaling. Thieves have 4 seconds which are miles better, and warriors have 6 second bleeds which is just amazing. (Auto-attack bleeds) You need a full +35% condition duration to get another tick out of your bleeds with a 3 second base bleed. They are not rounded, the extra doesn’t do jack diddly unless you get a full extra second on each bleed. So a ranger need to get 35% to get another tick of bleed damage, which isn’t possible without runes and/or sigils. To do it, you have to gear for it. Thieves need 25% to get an extra tick of damage per bleed. And warriors only need 20%.

You want to hear a funny story about synergy? Warrior. The trait line that adds condition damage, also adds precision. One of the minor traits causes crits to inflict bleed. Another caused 10% increased damage to targets that are bleeding. They have a Major trait that increases Bleed duration by 50%. That isn’t a typo… 50%. Warriors can have +80% bleed duration form traits alone. That turns their 6 second auto-attack bleed into a 10 second bleed.

That on crit bleed of theirs I mentioned, the minor trait one? Guess the duration? 2 seconds. How long is the Major trait ranger version? 1 second.

Warriors don’t often spec for condition builds though, so maybe you aren’t familiar with their plethora of options in that regard…. but it isn’t that they’re not phenomenal at condition builds that stops them, it is that they are kitten good at burst damage that you don’t see it often. Have you played a warrior? Have you bull rushed, quickness’d 100 blades a fool for 20+k? I have… insta-gib. It is kitten how hard it hits. If they don’t stun break and dodge immediately, they’re dead. It isn’t even a hard combo to do…. the Thief’s backstab, that can do around the same damage amount, at least takes a bit of finesse to pull off…

So, in summation… Ranger is perfectly fine, if you think it is perfectly fine. But if take a moment to look at what other people are capable of doing, you may very well come to realize you got the short end. But, if you like it, and it makes you feel special, enjoy it all you like. But it still doesn’t mean you’re not holding a really really tiny stick, no matter how shiny you think it is.

That, just by itself, rubbed a LOT of people the wrong way. The way it was handled drove people from the profession more than the bugs with the profession ever could. It was a clear sign that no one on the dev team really even played a ranger, didn’t understand the ranger, and quite frankly didn’t care about the ranger. No one wants to play the class the devs decide they don’t like, it always ends really poorly. And to many, this was as clear as day. You play a ranger; you will get kitten on, so reroll before you are too invested.

And that by itself is bad enough to discourage people. But you add into the mix the issues that have been plaguing the ranger since betas, the early over nerfs of a few weapon sets, and the vastly superior performance of several other professions…and it is no surprise that people are complaining. They want to like the ranger…. I know I certainly do.

Everything the ranger can do, another profession does better. With very, very…very few exceptions. The Op talks about the mobility of the class, yet is blind to how much superior the Thief’s mobility is. I play both, I know very well what options they both have, and everything the ranger does mobility wise, the thief simply does it better, for longer, more often, or faster… plus stealth.

If you want to get into control, as the Op suggests Ranger is amazing at, take a gander at Mesmer, or Warrior, Engineer…or Thief again. They all can chain actual control conditions on targets… not just cripples. Some pets have mediocre control, but they all pale in comparison to the control arsinal in many of the other professions.

And bugs… oh man, if we want to go there… hundreds of them. But I won’t. Eventually, these might get fixed, if you are still optimistic…

But I will go into one of the more annoying aspects of Ranger… Synergy. It is kittened. I don’t mean to be crass, but it really is. Go 30 points into traits for crits so that your skills that do condition damage work better??? Who smoked crack the day they decided that one? Have you seen how well other professions traits are set up synergistically??

While I can appreciate the concepts the Op is putting forth, there are some fundamental flaws with the reasoning being used.

First off though, I want to say… If you enjoy playing Ranger, it shouldn’t matter to you how many problems I or anyone else has with the Ranger profession… because you enjoy the Ranger. If you like it, no amount of the current issues bother you, and are completely satisfied with how it plays, then “whine” or “complaint” posts shouldn’t have any effect on you whatsoever… same reason, because you enjoy the Ranger. And that is fine, and all is well.

If however, you do have a problem with what other people are expressing. Well, that sucks for you really, because it means you are not comfortable with your own opinions to be truly satisfied liking something unless everyone else likes it too. I don’t have any good advice for you if this is the case, except to stop.

Now that I’ve got that covered. I wanted to go over what it is people have been complaining about, so that it is clear for those who think they understand, but don’t.

I’ll start with the Buzz topic of late; the stealth nerf, and the introduction of a new debilitating bug.

On 10/7 it was announced in the patch notes that a graphic glitch fix was implemented, and that 40 ms was added to Shortbow’s auto attack Crossfire. People logged in and immediately knew there was something wrong. Testing was done, topics on the subject multiplied, and the concensus was reached that 7.7% base dps was lost on the Shortbow, to fix a bug that no one had ever experienced, and the fix broke the interaction of shortbow’s attack with the Quickness buff. The net loss to some specs of 20+% dps.

The devs responded, saying they would look into the problem, and several days later gave their reply. And that reply turned the confusion and disappointment of the ranger community into anger. Because in that reply, the devs said that there was in fact a dps loss (and understated it), that it was fine, and that the ranger’s who use a shortbow are basically playing the game wrong (Though the change wouldn’t actually change the way it’s played). That the patch glitch fix was completely intentional, and they may eventually look into it someday in the distant future.

So, regardless of how appropriate any change they made might have been, the dev team was dishonest, and dictated to the player base what was, and was not fun. They implemented an ineffectual change, and nerfed the profession’s only decent damage weapon option.

It is a pretty common sense answer, so I don’t expect many people to know.

If you have a build that has lots of boons, or revolves around maintaining certain boons, then having +boon duration is going to be beneficial.

If you have a build that does not have many boons, or doesn’t really require them, then +boon duration will not be worth the sacrifice of something else.

With +boon duration, it is entirely possible to make builds that have 100% uptime on several boons, whether they be fury, protection, retaliation, swiftness etc.

For example, I was just playing around with my sPvP only Engineer character for giggles, and stacked +60% Might duration runes on, picked up the might w/ flamethrower and it gave me perma stack of 9 might. Or earlier, I tried similar with a warrior in sPvP where I used a greatsword with the 30% on crit might sigil, might on crit trait, and +60% might duration runes, and 30% boon duration traits and was rolling around with a near-perma 25 stack of might. (100 blades was doing like 17-18k on the HEAVY dummies, lol)

But again, it is all about your build, and if you need those extra seconds of boon time.

Since 10/7 I’ve made a thief and got to about lvl 70… so far so good. It does everything I liked about the ranger… just, you know, better.

My new warrior is only lvl 25, but I’m really starting to like it even more than the thief. I went into sPvP with it to play around with max level builds and whatnot, it’s truly amazing to play.

I’m almost certain I’ll end up maining the warrior.

ZLE.8293:

What pisses me off is just we(thieves) just can’t win can we.We are either OP,or abusers,or cheaters,but NEVER good players.

People hate what they cannot beat. To most people beat = kill. Thieves have too many escapes are often beat by driving off. That just drives people crazy with fury instead, because thy feel cheated out of a “win”… instead of feeling satisfied that they did, in fact, just win.

This is exactly the reason stealth/burst/mobility classes in any game anywhere get so much hate.

Ezekial.9186:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

But he’s still right, any condition removal skill removes all stacks of ONE condition.
Therefor, wait dodge several DB, and remove the bleeding you couldn’t dodge once he stops with DB. End of bleeding, end of thief’s life.

I personally am not fond of the DB spammer (I only do it in pve because they are mindless undead anyway). Last night I fought a DB spammer, he was never able to beat me but he had 3 stealth skills making it almost impossible for me to counter-act (he also used signet of shadows, I didn’t, so it was hard for me to catch up without using initiatives (shortbow) or shadowstep (my condition removal))… so in the end I just let him run.

It sounds like you were just fighting a random person in hot joins, and not the death blossom build. You don’t take stealth skills on the build—except shadow refuge for obvious reasons.

The death blossom build is pretty much this, and the only flexibility with it is changing IX for X if you have good initiative management skills:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c3333;0Vw-b0S5FOkd0;9;49;0TT2;628B27AasG4V;1jwmAjwmA2Vi

It takes me about 5-6 seconds to get up to 25 stacks of bleed, and at 25 stacks of bleed I am doing 8,775 damage a second—this is not including other conditions. Depending on the class, they have 1 condition removal skill which may only remove 1 condition, and by order of priority, it will not be the bleed so they will die. If it’s an all condition removal like Elixir C for example, it makes no difference because I will be able to get enough stacks back on within another 5-6 seconds. I never run out of initiative if I spam if I manage my steal, weapon swaps, and withdraws correctly. This is if they chose to stay, they might be able to run away, but in which case, I win because they abandoned their node.

You’re either lying, don’t know what you’re talking about, or making a metric kitten-ton of typos. Take your pick.

To do 8775 dps with 25 stack of bleed… lol… each bleed would be doing 351 damage per second… yeah, unless you have some crazy voodoo magiks or hacks, I doubt you got the roughly 6170 condition damage it’d take to do that.

Just saying.

Secondly, 5-6 seconds for a 25 stack seems too fast imo. I’m not going to straight up say that it’s not possible, but if you can hit Death Blossom 9 times in 5-6 seconds you know something I don’t. Like how to hack… again. Especially since you say you can do it twice in a row…

I have a Death Blossom thief build I’m fond of on my thief alt, it’s pretty devastating when I’m feeling it and in the zone. My build is focused on initiative regen, condition damage, and duration… and it’s taken down whole groups of bad players at a time. I’m not remotely trying to say that it’s not a powerful build in many situations… though it does have a few startlingly glaring weaknesses after you play it for a while…

And finally, you have a bad link. So I’m not sure you really contributed anything with your post.

Stiv.1820:

Yea one of the pizzas is condition duration and dmg. Though it seems according to a post here that it may now be bugged or there is some sort of cap. Not sure which it is.

There is a cap at +100%.

All of the medium to high level pizza foods add condition duration, up to +40% for the level 80 version. So if you are already at, say, +80 from trait/rune/sigil etc, you’d only still get to +100%… which is why it seems like the pizza “isn’t working” in some situations.

Moral of the story, you can only double your conditions’ durations… plan accordingly.

Redrumickey.9672:

Ive been playing that way alot . Add in a forest spider and you get 3 more poison shoots add to short bow.

When I use a lot of combo fields, I’m more of a fan of devourers, personally. They shoot 2x which adds a lot of extra projectile finishers in there. (Almost as many as we just lost from the nerf… almost)

Fastest legit way? Buy gems with real money, convert them to gold. The conversion is right around the 30-35 silver per dollar I think.

So, If you have a good job, and just pick up an extra hour of overtime, you can make like 20 gold in an hour. Lol…Though, that’s less efficient if you only make minimum wage, at only like 3-4 gold an hour. Though that’s still pretty quick.

The only thing that even remotely competes with having a good RL job, and buying gems, is playing the TP. But that in and of itself becomes a job.

Beyond pure dumb lucky drops, your best bet beyond that will be doing events and gathering, mostly in Orr. You can get 1-3 gold an hour depending on your personal efficiency at it.

The use of Quickness from any source, does not double the attack speed of Crossfire, the Ranger Shortbow 1 skill.

15 attacks are estimated to be seen, almost 16.

12 are actually seen.

It is only increasing attack speed by x1.56, and not by x2 like it says it does, did before the recent patch, or like it does to every other skill.

This is most certainly a bug. Albeit a newly introduced one.

This is a slightly separate topic from the “go-to” thread about the shortbow change on the ranger forums, as this is discussing the bug dealing with the interaction of quickness and crossfire. This is not about the speed change of regular crossfire attacks.

Please do not arbitrarily move this thread. This is a bug. And a separate topic.

Try this out.

Make a new character, complete tutorial zone and go to a major city at level 2. Collect a few coins from your bank. Buy a set of level 2 gear, complete with runes of power +11. Buy a sigil that gives +5 power on kills for your new level 2 weapon.

Watch as you steamroll everything in your path.

Why? Because this level 2 character is now fully equipped for level 2.

1 second bleed requires +100% for 1 extra tick.
2 second bleed requires +50% for 1 extra tick. And +100% for 2.
3 second bleed requires +35% for 1 extra tick. And +70% for 2. 100% for 3.
4 second bleed requires +25% for 1 extra tick. And +50% for 2. 75% for 3.
5 second bleed requires +20% for 1 extra tick. And +40% for 2. 60% for 3.
6 second bleed requires +20% for 1 extra tick. And +35% for 2. 50% for 3.
7 second bleed requires +15% for 1 extra tick. And +30% for 2. 45% for 3.
8 second bleed requires +15% for 1 extra tick. And +25% for 2. 40% for 3.
9 second bleed requires +15% for 1 extra tick. And +25% for 2. 35% for 3
10 second bleed requires +10% for 1 extra tick. And +20% for 2. 30% for 3.

Etc.

Check to see if that’s not your problem. I don’t know, I’m not sure what base duration bleed you are talking about.

Oh, edit: If +10% duration is giving you an extra 3 seconds on your bleed… it has a base duration of 30 seconds. So now I very much suspect you are confused. And if your bleed has a base duration of 10 seconds, and you have +30% (or +35% even) you should be getting only 3 extra seconds. And if the base duration is less than that, it is bugged, but bugged in your favor… as you are getting way too much extra duration.

I read that as “I can still get carried by a decent team through dungeons”.

Although I do agree that increasing the bleed duration or emoving the positional requirement would be welcome changes, as would reduced CDs on 2-5.

But to be frank, the thing I want most is for the devs to be honest with the players, and for them to work on fixing mechanics that are actually broken first before fixing imaginary graphics glitches.

Oh the Devs wont respond to this, haha. Best you can hope for is to say something out of line and a moderator will lock/delete your post. That’s the only attention we receive.

I’m nearly 100% certain that the 17th arrow partially benefits, that’s why I said it. I haven’t frame by frame proved it by any means, but I do know it is happening… correction, was happening.

The 13th arrow in current seemed to get a very small bit as well, but again, I didn’t frame by frame it. And honestly don’t care enough about exactly how not effective quickness is. It is so far past subpar on shortbow that it is trivial to pinpoint exactly how bad it is.

Besides, to test it I’d have to log onto my ranger again… /shudder

Qaletaqa Hania.2598:

Ravnodaus.5130:

During QZ you got in ~16.67 arrows, pre-patch. While that 17th shot didn’t go off during the actual QZ duration, it still partially benefitted from the quickness and would have a shorter than normal time to fire, as ~67% of the “cast time” was halved.

Just throwing that out there.

Should factor that into your maths, maybe. If you like that “accuracy” thing.

I’m skeptical about that.

Let’s take 480ms as a starting point.

480/2 = 240

Now 67% out of 240 is 160.8 milliseconds.

Then we need 33% out of 480 which is 158.4 milliseconds.

Next step would be to add those together:

160.8 + 158.4 = 319.2

So 319.2 milliseconds would be the “cast time” for the 17th arrow?

I doubt the engine is programmed like this because that would mean that the 17th arrow changes speed mid-air

It doesn’t have to change it’s flight speed. In fact the arrows don’t ever change flight speed…

It’s the “going through the motions” speed.

For the game to not apply that last few MS of quickness would be the peculiar thing. It’d have to forcast that the buff was going to wear off before it finished a full cycle of firing an arrow.

Calavero.3420:

Just to clarify what I was trying to say earlier (I’ve been following the thread since it was created, and have read every post):

Numbers are rounded for simplicity.
Original regular number of arrows fired in four seconds: 8
Original number of arrows fired during QZ: 16. Effect of QZ: 8 additional arrows
Post “fix” number of arrows fired during QZ: 12. Effect of QZ: 4 additional arrows

4 is 50% of 8, therefore the effect of QZ is diminished by 50%.

Also, the “no one has seen fit to mention it” thing was directed at the devs, certainly not the players who have repeatedly and eloquently pointed it out, as you have.

Your math is right if you round for simplicity. But when dealing with MS that isn’t the best strategy. If you round for simplicity then that 40 MS they added means nothing and wouldn’t even show up in any of your calculations.

0.48 rounds to 0.5 and 0.52 rounds to 0.5. That’s basically what you are saying he you say that we get 8 arrows in 4 seconds.

Pre-nerf we got 8 and 1/3 arrows per 4 seconds though. And post-nerf we get 7 and 9/13 arrows in 4 seconds. The common denominator being 39, we will use 156 benchmark for whole number comparison. Pre-nerf we had 325 arrows per 156 seconds, post-nerf we have 300 arrows per 156 seconds.

25 arrows over 156 seconds, that is what rounding does, you lose valuable information.

But more to the point. QZ went from doubling number of arrows fired for 4 seconds (Read: Adding 8 and 1/3 arrows) to multiplying arrows by 1.56 (Read: Adding 4 and 4/13 arrows)

If you want to compare, compare those.

By my caclulation, 12/16.67 = 0.72.

A loss of 28% arrows during QZ between pre-patch and Post-Patch. The same % lost during any other Quickness as well.

During QZ you got in ~16.67 arrows, pre-patch. While that 17th shot didn’t go off during the actual QZ duration, it still partially benefitted from the quickness and would have a shorter than normal time to fire, as ~67% of the “cast time” was halved.

Just throwing that out there.

Should factor that into your maths, maybe. If you like that “accuracy” thing.

Qaletaqa Hania.2598:

Calavero.3420:

-Snip-

I’m also a little disappointed that this animation fix, aside from the damage nerf caused Quickness effects (from the pet swapping trait and Quickening Zephyr) – which were the only source of burst damage available to the weapon – to be diminished in effectiveness by 50%, and no one replying to this thread has even seen fit to acknowledge that it’s happening.

-Snip-

Actually I did the math and said this on page 5:

So Quickness doubles speed right? We know QZ gives us Quickness and we know pre-patch it was 16 arrows in 4 seconds and post-patch 12 arrows in 4 seconds.

So that means if QZ doubles speed we should shoot 8 arrows in 4 seconds pre-patch and 6 arrows in 4 seconds post-patch using “Crossfire”.

How many seconds are there in a minute? 60.

60/4=15.
8*15 =120. (pre-patch)
6*15=90. (post-patch)

120 – 90 = 30. ( outcome is the difference between pre and post)
30 is 25% of 120.

Maybe Quickness is bugged, QZ and Zephyr’s Speed are bugged and aren’t cutting the casting time in half for Crossfire, or they incorrectly increased the casting time of Crossfire by a time greater then 40 milliseconds.

I then went on to do some more tests and I have made two more topics.

This first one actually shows how fast we should be shooting and how fast we are shooting while using Quickening Zephyr and Zephyr’s Speed:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Do-these-numbers-lie/first#post418551

So no the effectiveness has not been diminished by 50% but by 25% when you compare post to pre-patch while under the effects of Quickness.

Then there is this animation bug that happens when using QZ and ZS:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Another-animation-fix-incoming-for/first#post419344

I think your post was partially ignored. I know I did, but maybe I shouldn’t be so dismissive.

It is more likely you know what you are talking about, and just conveying it in a less than optimal manner. I do that all the time.

There are some problems with the numbers you are giving, or possibly with the explanation of what they represent. You seem to be getting your rate of normal fire from the rate of fire udr QZ and extrapolating from there. Don’t. That will give you very wrong rate of fire rates. The method that works best is to shoot at something uninterupted for exactly a minute and calculate from there. (Which has been done, documented, and even video’d) The pre patch rate of fire was 0.48 seconds per arrow. Now it is 0.52 seconds per arrow. (7.7% damage loss, at base, not the reported 7% from our buddies)

QZ doubles speed, this is correct. However, it is not doubling the speed of crossfire post patch.

Pre-patch 16 arrows in 4 seconds. But with a standard rate of fire of 0.48 seconds. In all tests, anywhere, it was always 16. The exact number we should see is 1/0.48 × 2 × 4 = 16 and 2/3 arrows fired during QZ. The remaining fraction of an arrow does actually matter, as it gets partially affected by quickness.

Post patch, we can just throw that out the window entirely. Because it isn’t even close. We should see 15 arrows fired during QZ. The exact number we should see is 1/0.52 × 2 × 4 = 15 and 5/13. Instead we are getting 12.

Either way, the difference between then and now is 16.67 vs 12. And that is easy to calculate. The difference is exactly big, noticable, and game breaking. QZ is only giving 1.56 times the rate of fire now, and not 2x like it says it does….. and does for every other profession’s weapons/skills. Just not for Crossfire. Shortbow + Quickness = Fail.

Arsenic Touch.7960:

bombs.9150:

I think with last night’s patch, ArenaNet changed the bleed effect on the shortbow to 4 seconds, up from 3. It doesn’t mention that in the patch, but I see it when I mouse over the crossfire skill.

says 3 3/4 for me. Unless you’re just rounding, I never really paid attention to the bleed duration on the tooltip.

One of you has 35% condition duration, and the other has 25% condition duration. >.>

3 secod base. 35% to get it to 4 sec, 70% to get it to 5 sec, 100% to get 6 sec. Condition duration caps at +100%. So our maximum bleed duration on shortbow is 6 seconds.

If you can get yor condition duration to +100%, that’ the sweet spot where our ~on crit – bleed~ trait lasts 2 seconds, and is worth taking in a precision/condition build because it adds 3-4 to your rolling bleed stack.

I’m rambling. Carry on.

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Hmm, no… it IS fun.

Omg, moderators wear Rabid gear?? O_O

But seriously, everyone knows half of 520ms is 400ms. Pft.

Yeah, I feel the same way too. I really expect more from Anet than how this is being handled. The only reason I’m upset and being vocal is because of high regard for them in general. I’m disappointed. Had this happened somewhere else I would have already talked with my wallet and bailed. Though, to be fair…I sort of am now already, since I haven’ and will not be using the gem store until they do some major damage control.

I am going to rant a little, and I know that’s probably not the most productive… But I’m just being brutally honest here. They keep handling things, so very wrong, and I am quite frankly baffled by it and confused by either a seeming incompetence or lack of care. So many problems are “being created” that don’t need to be if they had just a slight bit of foresight…

This one patch fix. To fix an animation glitch. They handled it just about the worst imaginable way possible. By straight up lying to us.

Reason given for change: Animation glitch.
Number of people who have witnessed said “animation glitch”: 0
How high of a priority was this? Top

How can this… THIS, be what they decide to “fix” first? An imaginary animation glitch! certainly that would mean that everything else is functioning properly first right? Not even kind of…

BUT… After massive outcry, and customer requests for an explanation… We are told that the nerf was intentional, and to discourage 1 spam? Open admission to deception? YES. But what even makes it worse… IT DOESN’T EVEN DISCOURAGE 1 SPAM!!! If you are still even playing your Ranger, and still using the shortbow…. which skill are you killing things with, I wonder? Ahh…yes… 1 spam. Maybe…just maybe… that is because it is the ONLY real ranged ATTACK on that weapon, and everything else is utility/situational? Ha… ha.. haahh…erg. /facepalm

They also broke quickness with the fix. Crossfire doesn’t benefit much from it. certainly isn’t working as it used to/ description says it works. Doesn’t function…they broke it…and are intentionally or willfully ignoring the outcry of this new bug. Or they’re clueless and don’t even notice. I’m really not sure which is worse.

Ok…
What this tells us… in list form:

Anet will boldly lie to us.
Anet has kittened up priorities.
Anet will make more bugs when they fix minor bugs.
Anet will make major changes that do nothing to accomplish their actual goal, just symptoms of it… “Har har, hey guys, we decided you don’t spend enough game time out exploring the world beyond the major cities, so made all the major cities quickly drain your HP. Good luck staying in town for more than 20 seconds, haha. Cities aren’t fun, get used to it.”
Because Anet knows what is fun, you do not. Beatings will continue until moral improves.

That is what their handling of this “animation glitch” tells us. And I don’t want to think any of those things about them. I want to be a happy and loyal customer. But bad practices and bad business can’t be silently ignored. They need to do something, and it needs to be a dramatic change of pace from the last few weeks of “progress”.
I desperately want to help them. They just seem to be so deep in over their heads that they are floundering… I keep holding on to hope, somehow, by thinking of what “could be”. There is so much potential in this game it is amazing. But just a few critical faults could tear it down from the inside out on the most fundamental level.

nldixon.8514:

I can play this game too, broski.

Kill Shot is a RIFLE skill. It doesn’t say on the page that Rangers are masters of rifles. Just archery. Second, what a Warrior can or can’t do has no bearing on the Ranger class, since we’re not talking about the Ranger class in comparison to other classes. We’re talking about the capabilities of the Ranger class and it’s intended purpose.

There is one sentence on the entire page about Rangers using bows. There is absolutely NO other mention of Rangers killing stuff with bows. In fact, the whole page is primarily focused on TRAPS, PETS, and SPIRITS. How you can possibly think that the whole page is focused on the ability of Rangers to take foes down based on one sentence in the into is beyond me.

Finally, the page describes the Ranger as a class that can adapt to any situation, not some kind of killing machine. In fact, it doesn’t say anywhere that the Ranger is an amazing combatant. It simply says they’re “capable of bringing down foes from a distance with their bows”. That’s it.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here, but you obviously want the Ranger class to be something it’s not and something it’s not intended to be. If you the the Warrior and Thief class are so much superior in ranged combat, then by all means go play a Warrior or a Thief.

Chillax bromeister…

You argument is what? That something is irrelevant if it is a small portion of a complete article? That’s just faulty logic.

The description clearly states mastery of bows and archery etc… unparalleled even. The word “unparalleled” is a comparator, it is saying better than anyone else. This actually makes discussing options and abilities of other professions very relevant. If their archery is superior to a rangers… then a ranger isn’t an “Unparalleled archer”.

Hey Coma Kid,

Have you really played all the other professions enough to know that no other profession kites as well as a ranger? I know the answer to this question already, which is “No”.

A Thief with offhand dagger can kite by applying cripple for infinity. Just keep on applying it…over and over, with 100% up time, forever until whatever it is dies. (All while moving faster than a ranger)

Just throwing that out there.

It’s not even 7%. Devs didn’t do the math right. 7.7% is the most conservative number you could possibly give it with no traits or on proc equips and no other skill usage.

For actual optimized builds with SB, the nerf is right around 20%, but that is also accounting for the broken hastes.