Guild Wars 2

So, I have spoken my mind. I’ve made it clear on this, and other forums how I think this betrayal is unacceptable. Betrayal my be too strong a word, perhaps this “swindling” is unacceptable. At any rate… the final step is complete. I’ve requested a full refund for any/gem purchases I’ve made. And believe you me…that is a very large sum… I wanted to support Anet and show my love with my wallet, and had every, every intent of being a long standing player in this otherwise amazing game. Gear treadmill is a deal breaker, the deception and disregard, callous lack of response. It isn’t ok to accept this treatment as a consumer…or just as a human being in general.

I’m ok with this resulting in my account being closed, as I’m sure will be required to go through with a gem refund of this nature. But I simply will not allow a company to lie to me, and then swindle me. Absolute deal breaker.

I’m aware this will probably be deleted. I just wanted to say, to those of you who are calling it quits and have made additional purchases to show your support in the past, the option to request a refund is available to you. If you’re leaving, speak with your wallet. Don’t just stop buying from them, demand a refund for the things you were sold under false pretense. Better Business Bureau has a word for this sort of thing from a company, fraud.

(Technically… their term isn’t fraud, but that just sounded more dramatic! >.> They classify it as simply “Advertising/Sales Issues”)

It has been an interesting trip, and I will always remember this game as the game that had all the potential in the world, bristling with it, splitting at it’s seems with untapped amazing awesomeness… and the ball was fumbled, and the game never because all that it could have… should have been.

Good luck everyone who stays, I hope you find what you are looking for.

/end-ridiculous-tirade

Lol… like this one?

Roflmao.

DegoLocc.5976:

There is nothing wrong with “power creep” or progression if kept in check. I swear some of you carebear casuals won’t be happy until everyone in the game has everything achievable at level 1.

Go play street fighter, or mortal kombat if you want a “fair game”.

Coming from a player since launch, and who is not yet even 80, I think a guy who has 400 hours and a lot of work and time put in, should be slightly more powerful than someone who hasn’t.

Anet, just keep doing what you’re doing, and don’t let ppl who won’t be playing this game in six months from now regardless, let you sway your design to fit their instant gratification needs.

Just my opinion.

Your first sentence contradicts itself… I take it from that, that you don’t even know what you’re talking about.

Besides, many of the people outraged decided to go to a game that was “fair”. The game was called Guild Wars 2. But… I guess you missed that part?

Ok, you can have your narrow minded opinion, and you can freely express it. But don’t expect people wont think you’re a complete tool because of it.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Mungrul.9358:

Bardes.1870:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13ccl4/mystic_forged_a_quiver/

Just 1 day, someone already has a pink(red) backslot equipment.

Hopefully Anet has good schedule and does not underestimate the ability that how fast players can get upgraded-stat asc gears. ’Cause soon, those who had nothing to do will have 2 asc rings and asc back.

Well, I admit I’m wondering when you will break your promise again — to announce T2 ascended items.

Once again proving that the “Content Locusts” will devour any content placed in front of them faster than the developers could ever hope to predict.

So, Chris Whiteside was telling the truth. They have no plans to trot out new treadmill gear every three months, because they don’t know now fast the locusts can consume the content. Every couple of weeks should do it.

Haha, lol. The thought flickered through my mind when I first read that bit too! Something along the lines of “Hur, once a month works perfectly, every three months and it would be too stale”.

I really don’t think they even know what they’re trying to accomplish anymore. One big pile of contradictions and confusion, no direction and some of the most absurd choices possible.

SiNoS.2147:

Ravnodaus.5130:

SiNoS.2147:

Ya dont remember when i seen it buy on zerker set its estimated like a 60% boost to crit damage for the entire set.

I’m estimating closer to 30% extra crit damage, myself. With about 180 power, and 90 precision. So an increase in almost 5% crit rate, 20% extra “base” damage from power. All netted up.. around 25-30% more than someone in exotics, and another 10% from the base weapon damage going up. Sum difference will be right around 40% more dps.

That’s my personal estimate, anyway. I’m not sure I even care enough to do a full write up of the maths or why I picked which numbers are most likely, like some of my other maths explanation posts in the past. Maybe I’ll d a full write up though, despite it seeming drudgingly painful atm, which is odd because I usually enjoy it.

The one i saw was done with stats simular to rings and such instead of runes/sigil’s added to armor and weapons.

Yeah, I saw a similar estimate…if not the same one. I just used what I feel is a more accurate method for determining what I consider a logical procession of stats based on what little we know than the write that predicted the 60% figure. The flaw, or so I perceived it as a flaw, in their deduction was the correlation between the MF % increases in the first press release ascended ring and the calculation they used to convert that into an estimate for crit damage % stat estimate.

My estimate determined that for s they are increasing them by 1.5 rounded down. So 4 in the MF example becomes the 6% and 3% becomes 4%, which is how they got the 10% on the actual item. I think people who came up with the 60% figure assumed that 10% was the figure to break down and find the multiplier from… but I don’t believe that is the most accurate way, and that it would lead to an errant figure.

Anyway, I’m rambling. I really really think 30% is going to be extremely close to the figure we will see after the full set is revealed.

SiNoS.2147:

Ya dont remember when i seen it buy on zerker set its estimated like a 60% boost to crit damage for the entire set.

I’m estimating closer to 30% extra crit damage, myself. With about 180 power, and 90 precision. So an increase in almost 5% crit rate, 20% extra “base” damage from power. All netted up.. around 25-30% more than someone in exotics, and another 10% from the base weapon damage going up. Sum difference will be right around 40% more dps.

That’s my personal estimate, anyway. I’m not sure I even care enough to do a full write up of the maths or why I picked which numbers are most likely, like some of my other maths explanation posts in the past. Maybe I’ll d a full write up though, despite it seeming drudgingly painful atm, which is odd because I usually enjoy it.

Fritz.5026:

Jasher.6580:

19k-25k hundred blades is okay… yet they nerfed pistol whip… I’m genuinely confused. Both root the character, both are channelled attacks, yet the guy with the heavy armour and high health gets to keep that ridiculous damage.

Confused.

because you are looking at things in a vacuum.

a warrior cannot turn invisible to avoid being attacked.
a warrior cannot teleport away when things are going badly.

also your numbers are so inflated its ridiculous.

Those are perfectly acurate numbers.

SiNoS.2147:

Ravnodaus.5130:

SiNoS.2147:

Greep.6394:

Ah yeah, the trifogre is a bit of an anomaly though. They’ve actually said in a blog somewhere that they didn’t plan on making the triforge into a corresponding ascended yet, so I’m not sure if that comparison is accurate.

It’d be best to compare any of the other ascended rings versus other exotics rings for a more accurate picture.

Then your best off using (http://www.gw2db.com/items/71372-bagh-nakh) to (http://www.gw2db.com/items/58008-ruby-orichalcum-ring) and (http://www.gw2db.com/items/26447-exquisite-beryl-jewel-s)

EDIT: Wow i really cant copy and past the proper links today. Here we go proper items.

That is even moreextreme than I had initially thought.

+7, +5, +3, +3, +1%, +1%. And an infusion slot. 12 primary, 6 secondary, and 2% secondary…. and with a fine infusion another 5. The 2% would be likely a 6 if a non% stat type… so, 27 stat points better with only a fine quality infusion…

Ya and this is why me and others are in such an uproar over this. When you compair (http://www.gw2db.com/items/58008-ruby-orichalcum-ring) and (http://www.gw2db.com/items/26447-exquisite-beryl-jewel-s) to (http://www.gw2db.com/items/58001-ruby-mithril-ring) and (http://www.gw2db.com/items/26410-beryl-orb-s) you see that its a +8, +6, +5, +1, +1% which is a total of a 20 point stat boost with a 1% boost from rare to exotic. Where as this new ascended is a 18 point stat boost with a 2% boost from exotic to ascended. Everyone already admits the difference from rare to exotic is noticeable what do you thing basically the same change from exotic to ascended is going to be.

Oh trust me, I’m in the same boat. Do not want. Feeling betrayed and swindled. I’m trying to remain as objective as possible though, and work on making sure everyone is on the same page as far as what the introduction of this new tier of gear really means. Which is going to end up being around 375 stat increase minimum, another good chunk of weapon damage, and armor. I’m predicting 25-30% dps increase in full berserk ascended vs exotic… because of the way power, precision, and crit damage scale so well off of one another, the higher you stack them the more powerful they all become, combined by the fact the ascended tier weapon if it follows gear quality trends (even slightly) will increase damage by 10%+ all on its own.

People are going to notice. Maybe not right away, most people lack the foresight to see the implications of changes… but when a warrior 100 blades them for over 30k… they’ll notice. Or a thief backstabs them for 15k+ again… (plus another 12k from mug and C&D)… But hey… it isn’t like anyone likes wvw, and certainly no one would use ascended gear out in the open fields of battle, right? It is going to be a trainwreck.

Oh right… hmm, I’m not doing so great at remaining neutral >.<

SiNoS.2147:

Greep.6394:

Ah yeah, the trifogre is a bit of an anomaly though. They’ve actually said in a blog somewhere that they didn’t plan on making the triforge into a corresponding ascended yet, so I’m not sure if that comparison is accurate.

It’d be best to compare any of the other ascended rings versus other exotics rings for a more accurate picture.

Then your best off using (http://www.gw2db.com/items/71372-bagh-nakh) to (http://www.gw2db.com/items/58008-ruby-orichalcum-ring) and (http://www.gw2db.com/items/26447-exquisite-beryl-jewel-s)

EDIT: Wow i really cant copy and past the proper links today. Here we go proper items.

That is even moreextreme than I had initially thought.

+7, +5, +3, +3, +1%, +1%. And an infusion slot. 12 primary, 6 secondary, and 2% secondary…. and with a fine infusion another 5. The 2% would be likely a 6 if a non% stat type… so, 27 stat points better with only a fine quality infusion…

SiNoS.2147:

Ravnodaus.5130:

SiNoS.2147:

Greep.6394:

Okay here we go, it’ll take me a while to find the correlating exotic + jewel for this, but this has way way way way way more stats than the other than just +3, especially considering the stats shown at the bottom:

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71358-lunaria-circle-of-the-moon

Just to note those bottom stats only work in the dungeon. But the rest of it still is out of dungeon stats.

Is that accurate? What is your sorce for this info?

The bottom stats are the infusion which only works in the dungeon…

1. Thank you for not answering my question.
2. That is not the infusion, as it does not have agony resistance.

So… what makes you think infusions only function in the dungeon?

SiNoS.2147:

Greep.6394:

Okay here we go, it’ll take me a while to find the correlating exotic + jewel for this, but this has way way way way way more stats than the other than just +3, especially considering the stats shown at the bottom:

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71358-lunaria-circle-of-the-moon

Just to note those bottom stats only work in the dungeon. But the rest of it still is out of dungeon stats.

Is that accurate? What is your sorce for this info?

Regizer.1763:

Greep.6394:

Regizer.1763:

A new tier of gear (1 item) was released that adds a whopping 3 more stats to current best gear. Apparently this a low blow to the community.

Yeah isn’t it great how “50+ per piece totalling over +300” magically becomes “3” when you want it to suit your argument.

Seriously. Come on. You aren’t convincing anyone.

Isn’t it great to make up random numbers? I know that you know that feel.

Estimate of course, as a full set has not been revealed. But, the basis for these numbers is sound, that the difference in stats between gear tiers is fairly consistent, and that the difference between what ascended gear we have seen and the same exotic versions falls in line with typical gear quality variation. Keeping that in mind, using a berserker stat allotment, simply because it can most easily be summarized by “dps”… upgrading from exotic to full ascended will net you ~ 25-30% more dps.

I’m sincerely not trying to skew numbers here. I could pull some random numbers out of my kitten and just say some ridiculous amount. Like I said, there is some estimation in the math to get to that figure, but it is all backed by logical conclusions based on current data. 25-30% more dps.

I really don’t care if you swallow that dose of truth, or if you prefer to keep on your blinders and charge forward with whatever ideas about the issue you may hold.

To people who have theory crafted and number crunched… the scale of power difference is pretty obvious.

Wildclaw.6073:

Ditrah.5128:

That’s a bad example for the simple reason that those guilds could never complete the whole raid due to number maths. Gear-check bosses does not exist in the same way in GW2.

…….

Agony is the ultimate gear check stat, designed specifically for gear checking.

This, exactly this.

The way it is designed and implemented, is to gear check you. Hard line gear check at some level.

If you do not have sufficient agony resist, gained from infusions(gear), then agony will stop you from advancing further. To go further… you will need to get better gear!

Regizer.1763:

Ravnodaus.5130:

Regizer.1763:

3 points or 12% is just a different way of saying the same thing

14% is more correct. I believe the exact number that was figured was something like 13.8% if memory serves, but that is just spling hairs.

The difference is, your +3 is just plain wrong Reggy my friend. The example item shown in the announcement itself had +5 power, +5 precion, and +3% magic find. It also had an empty slot to fill with an infusion, and we’ve found that infusions (fine grade) add another 5 to a stat. For a total of +15, and +3%.

After finding more examples than the initial one in the release, we’ve learned that the typical spread is +7, +5, +5, and the extra +5 from a fine infusion. For a total of +22… and that is per item.

+22… +3… hrm, yeah… how are those the same?

Not to ruin your math but does this consider empty upgrade slots for armors/weapons?

Your question is irrelevant in the way you ask it. But to answer the question I think you are trying to ask, yes, it accounts for the total difference in stats possible, not just the difference of an empty exotic vs empty ascended.

An upgraded Exotic ring with an exotic jewel will have 22 less stats than an Ascended ring with a fine infusion.

Regizer.1763:

grumbles.5412:

Regizer.1763:

Ravnodaus.5130:

Regizer.1763:

grumbles.5412:

Regizer.1763:

Crater.1625:

Regizer.1763:

Ah ok. Though this mechanic only applies to this one dungeon so whats the problem?

The problem is that it should apply to zero dungeons.

Why? This is part of PvE content of a MMO, PvE players like to get gear upgrades. If you don’t like PvE why are you even running dungeons?

As a player that enjoys PvE. I do not like gear upgrades. I enjoy running dungeons because they offer interesting social experiences that provide quite intense action. This is the PvE Content of GuildWars 2 a supposedly different kind of MMO. If I wanted gear-progression based game I’d go to certain other MMOs out there, where you have 14+ tiers of gear available to you.

And whats stopping from enjoying PvE as it is? You do realize that at this point in time around 0 people have new tier of gear and yet they still are doing the new dungeon and are still praising it as one of better achievements of GW2 team.

You’re confusing two issues. The new tier of armor, and the new dungeon. I know, I know, there is a very real relationship between the two things…. but one is not the same thing as the other and you shouldn’t interchange them so cavalierly.

The outrage is not directed at all at the new dungeon. Some people like, some don’t, many simply love it. That’s fine and good. The issue people are getting all crazy over is the new tier of gear, the complete reversal of philosophy in the game, the power creep, the precedent.

GW2 now has a gear treadmill. Last week it really didn’t. The change has very dire implications for the future of the game, long reaching implications.

Isn’t it the first time they added new gear sets? You can’t really call this a treadmill…

Its the precedent and its opening the door for the future. As ArenaNet stated
“This is just the beginning. In November, we’re only adding the first level of Infusions and Ascended Rings and Back slots, so that leaves us a lot of room to build upon these levels of Item progression in future content.” – Linsey Murdock

First level as in first set of items, like there are multiple exotic dungeon sets there will be multiple ascended gear sets

No again you’re wrong still.

“First level” is refering to item grade. The initial infusions are of the"fine" grade. Later infusios will be of higher quality… ie masterwork, rare, exotic… even ascended and potentially eventually legendary or some other new level they invent down the road.

Fine quality is +5 to a stat, and +5 agony resistance. There are some other variants too. But along that power level. And that is fine quality. Imagine an Ascended quality version, and you will quickly see that the power is creeping, and is going to keep creeping steadily for the forseeable future.

Regizer.1763:

3 points or 12% is just a different way of saying the same thing

14% is more correct. I believe the exact number that was figured was something like 13.8% if memory serves, but that is just spling hairs.

The difference is, your +3 is just plain wrong Reggy my friend. The example item shown in the announcement itself had +5 power, +5 precion, and +3% magic find. It also had an empty slot to fill with an infusion, and we’ve found that infusions (fine grade) add another 5 to a stat. For a total of +15, and +3%.

After finding more examples than the initial one in the release, we’ve learned that the typical spread is +7, +5, +5, and the extra +5 from a fine infusion. For a total of +22… and that is per item.

+22… +3… hrm, yeah… how are those the same?

Regizer.1763:

A new tier of gear (1 item) was released that adds a whopping 3 more stats to current best gear. Apparently this a low blow to the community.

This……… is the misinformation to which I was refering….

Regizer.1763:

Ravnodaus.5130:

Regizer.1763:

xtorma.1283:

Regizer.1763:

A new tier of gear (1 item) was released that adds a whopping 3 more stats to current best gear. Apparently this a low blow to the community.

Tell the truth.

That is the truth as far as I know

Then you do not know. Reread the posts about the numbers involved. look up the gear we do know about already and compare it for yourself. The issue here isn’t +3 to a stat one time. (Although some people would still get miffed about that, on principle)

Really, look into it more. You will see the issue is far larger than you currently think it is.

I’m sorry but this issue isn’t important enough for me to look it up. But if you want to explain it to me I’d be grateful.

It isn’t important enough for you to look up… yet you are perfectly content spouting misinformation and completely wrong information on these forums instead? That is sickening.

Regizer.1763:

grumbles.5412:

Regizer.1763:

Crater.1625:

Regizer.1763:

Ah ok. Though this mechanic only applies to this one dungeon so whats the problem?

The problem is that it should apply to zero dungeons.

Why? This is part of PvE content of a MMO, PvE players like to get gear upgrades. If you don’t like PvE why are you even running dungeons?

As a player that enjoys PvE. I do not like gear upgrades. I enjoy running dungeons because they offer interesting social experiences that provide quite intense action. This is the PvE Content of GuildWars 2 a supposedly different kind of MMO. If I wanted gear-progression based game I’d go to certain other MMOs out there, where you have 14+ tiers of gear available to you.

And whats stopping from enjoying PvE as it is? You do realize that at this point in time around 0 people have new tier of gear and yet they still are doing the new dungeon and are still praising it as one of better achievements of GW2 team.

You’re confusing two issues. The new tier of armor, and the new dungeon. I know, I know, there is a very real relationship between the two things…. but one is not the same thing as the other and you shouldn’t interchange them so cavalierly.

The outrage is not directed at all at the new dungeon. Some people like, some don’t, many simply love it. That’s fine and good. The issue people are getting all crazy over is the new tier of gear, the complete reversal of philosophy in the game, the power creep, the precedent.

GW2 now has a gear treadmill. Last week it really didn’t. The change has very dire implications for the future of the game, long reaching implications.

Regizer.1763:

xtorma.1283:

Regizer.1763:

A new tier of gear (1 item) was released that adds a whopping 3 more stats to current best gear. Apparently this a low blow to the community.

Tell the truth.

That is the truth as far as I know

Then you do not know. Reread the posts about the numbers involved. look up the gear we do know about already and compare it for yourself. The issue here isn’t +3 to a stat one time. (Although some people would still get miffed about that, on principle)

Really, look into it more. You will see the issue is far larger than you currently think it is.

Crater.1625:

Regizer.1763:

Ah ok. Though this mechanic only applies to this one dungeon so whats the problem?

The problem is that it should apply to zero dungeons.

The other problem, is that the people who do invest a billion hours into grinding their Ascended gear, will have 14-20% better stats than the people who decide to skip it.

If you do not play, you get left behind. Everyone else will be more effective than you, their characters more powerful. You’ll feel compelled to keep up, and thus get sucked into the never ening cycle of getting gear to get gear to get gear. Who actually wants that? I mean genuinely wants that… there are soooo many more ways to allow characters to grow a advance than to simply put gear that is +1 the older version.

Tempest.1254:

No, you need it. FotM is the only content worth doing now.

Q: Why is it the only content worth doing?

A: Because it is the content that gives better gear!

Q: Why do you need better gear?

A: Duh, because otherwise you cannot progress in the dungeons…

Q: Why do you need to progress in dungeons?

A: It is the only content worth doing…

Q: Why again?

A: To get better gear, what are you not understanding? Better gear! Better gear! dungeons give better gear!

Q: Ah, I think I get it… but why do you need better gear?

I’ve come to the conclusion that the problem we’re experiencing is just one or two people in Anet, and not the company as a whole. They’re probably in higher levels within the development team, and completely out of touch with reality. Anet should “look into” that by maybe looking into “alternatives”.

Between the fail that was the ranger “fixes” this patch, and the ultimate fail of the introduction of a gear treadmill to the one “good” anti-treadmill game….

I’m left pondering wtf is going on at Dev central.

Now, I’m not trying to harp on Anet, or claim they’re all bad or anything. It is very clear than many of the staff are in fact competent and really do care. But some of the “direction” the game developers are taking is absolutely baffling.

I’m starting to believe that there are a couple bad apples with entirely too much power and sway in the company, and that they’re calling bad shots and the employees who are actually capable intelligent and passionate about the game simply don’t have the power or clout necessary to call them on their BS.

Maybe I’m wrong. But if I’m not I really hope the company sorts it out and gets themselves some people with a better idea on how to run the game. What is clear, is that someone is calling bad shots… and that needs to be addressed, sooner rather than later, or it’ll end up driving away customers, or worse yet damage the Anet reputation as a whole.

MistaMike.7356:

I really don’t understand what the big deal is? They’re giving us more game to play, what’s wrong with that? If you hate progressing your character then why don’t you just sit at level 1?

You people complain about anything. If Anet bumped max level up to 85, you’d complain then too about “hey you said no grind!” Seriously they’re giving us new content, totally for free, and you complain? What the hell is wrong with you.

First, check your attitude. It is wrong.

Second, check your world view, it isn’t based in reality.

Anet is not giving us anything for free. Nothing a business does is for free. This is a for profit organization, designed to make money. That is what they do, or aim to do…make money. Every bit of time they have, employee they hire, computer they buy, server they upgrade, line of code they program… was bought and paid for by the consumers of their product… us.

I also think you may just be one of the people that the treadmill appeals to…. one of the people that cannot see it for what it actually is…. someone who thinks the definition of “more content” is “more of the same with bigger numbers”.

i don’t think that is new content. I think it is recycled content, rehashed ad infinitum to appease the dull mindless addicted masses with subpar entertainment.

Amulrei.4973:

Romeo.4378:

If you read the notes, you’d see that in the patch they nerfed every build APART from Backstab.

It’s like the only build we have left.

Deal with it or take your whining somewhere else.

So instead of having all your weapon-sets viable, you rather one broken, OP one?

And Thief players wonder why they got such a bad reputation…

He didn’t say he prefered it that way at all. In fact I got the distinct impression that he was slightly miffed that Anet nerfed the other builds and seems intent of pigeon holing thieves into the burst backstab style of play.

Amulrei.4973:

Greenbuddhas.4508:

i dunno, i was doing pretty well 1on1 against a thief lastnight on my necro

A D/D Thief? They are the only really dangerous ones. P/P for instance is a complete joke.

Interestingly enough, they did just nerf D/D… specifically the /D side.

Effect it makes on the real reason that set is complained about? 0.

Because the dancing dagger wasn’t even a real issue…and the cloack and dagger nerf helps ever so slightly, only realy served to set up the backstab anyway. Plus the C&D nerf doesn’t affect WvW combat if I’m not mistaken, anyway.

So there isn’t much reason to have expected thieves to be any worse off in the first place.

I wanted to make a few points, for the sake of clarity, and so that if we choose to engage in dialogue about this issue, we are all at least on board. Too many people are spreading ignorance, or worse yet trying to mislead.

1. Ascended gear is going to be strictly better than exotic gear. Please leave whatever denial of this fact at the door. Low estimates (credible ones) put this value at around +14% extra stats. (Possibly… and likely, more than this figure. It is the minimum.)

2. Ascended gear has Infusions slots, and infusions add even more stats. Fine (blue) infusions have +5 stats each, higher quality ones will likely have far more. Increasing the disparity between exotic and ascended further.

3. Ascended gear will be released periodically in piecemeal. While this is only one new tier of gear, and no word if there will be more later… the fact it is being released piecemeal over time is by definition a gear treadmill already. Saying otherwise is just misdirection, word trickery, or outright deceit.

4. Legendary weapons will be upgraded to ascended tier quality. If this remotely follows the established trend of quality for l80 weapon in game, this will net ~ 10% extra damage minimum… by itself. And not the kind of 10% extra that gets added to all your other % bonuses additively and really only increases your damage by 3%… I mean 10% more than what you would do with an equivalent exotic weapon. 1 item, huge advantage.

5. Before this update, Anet’s stance was very clearly, without a doubt to be anti-treadmill. The number of quotes and statements and interviews available regarding this philosophy is startling. Anet has just made a complete reversal of previous stated philosophy. Good/bad? Whatever… fact.

Now. Go ahead and discuss whatever you like about that. In favor of it? Against it? What does it mean for the future? Do you still have the faith? Whatever. But get the basics of the issue straight before getting all mouthy about it. Otherwise you just fill up white space with black symbols full of meaninglessness.

Cyric.7485:

GADefence.5634:

“By that logic anything up until now that wasn’t an Exotic tier item has been considered an obsolete item? "

Yes. Yes it is. Seriously? Look at rares : 15 silver a piece. Look at exotics, 1+ gold for most of them (usually, the minimum craft cost + a %). . .

Yellows cost more then 15 silver to make, yet sell for 15 silver. WHY? Simple, that’s the price ectos are at. Hence, obsolete. People go drops -> maybe yellows -> exotics and never look at yellows again. (I went blues/greens to exotics personally)

The biggest difference in moving from rares to exotics are the base stats such as weapon damage and armor value. The additional Power/Precision/Toughness/etc increase is hardly noticeable, to me anyway. I had no trouble stomping the PvE scene or the WvW scene with my rares and when I upgraded to exotics I saw a slight increase in my performance but nothing that made me think “OMGWTFHAVEIBEENDOINGTHISENTIRETIME!?!?!”. Anyone who deems something “obsolete” because it’s lacking a whopping 5 stat points is, IMO, probably a min/maxer. I can kick someone’s teeth in with 3k Power or 2k Power, hardly makes a difference in the grand scheme of stats.

OK. A few points. Weapon damage has a very major role in how much damage you do. The higher quality of the weapon, the higher the base damage. THEY ARE MAKING LEGENDARIES BETTER. Just thought I’d toss that your way in case you missed it. The single biggest factor in power escalation is going to be the legendary weapons that are already in play… they are upgrading them. This will have dramatic effect in the game… but you’ll notice yourselves soon enough.

The other point I’d like to make, because it was mentioned earlier in this thread…. “attack” isn’t a stat. I don’t care what your hero panel says, because it just isn’t a stat. The damage formula at no time EVER adds your weapon damage to your power stat. It is completely irrelevant what your “attack” is. Your 2000 attack could be over 25 times better than my 2000 attack…. how you ask? 1k weapon damage times 1k power = 1 million … vs my 20 weapon damage times my 1980 power = 39600. Arbitrary and unlikely, but illustrates the point. Attack isn’t inherently meaningful.

Relatedly, the difference between 2k power and 3k power is rather startling. I don’t know how you can suggest that it is insignificant unless you are either trying to mislead intentionally, or have been mislead yourself. 916 power is base… and power works in a multiplicative manner in the damage formula. So if 916 power is base, then that gives us base damage. This means for every 916 extra power we have, we increase the damage multiplier by the next integer. So 1832 power is times 2 damage… 2748 is times 3 damage. With your numbers… 2k power is about 2.2 times damage, and k power is about 3.3 times damage … basically a 50% increase.

You know what compounds this whole issue? The fact that power is multiplied by weapon damage. An increase in weapon damage increases the value of power, and an increase in power ramps up the value of weapon damage. The scale off of each other… all the main damage stats do in one form or another. Adding even a small amount of additional stats drastically increases the damage potential of a character beyond the capabilities of the people still stuck in exotics.

This last section, is my pure speculation and rough ball guesstimate.

Based on the example shown of the ascended gear, it’s relative power increase when expanded out to a full set, accounting for differential stat allotment budgeting per item type… IF the infusions themselves do not have numerical stats on them…which is a big if…. we will likely see an increase in base weapon damage for legendaries of around 80-100. And an extra 150-200 to one stat, and 90-120 to 2 other stats.

That may seem minor… but I assure you it is very, very far from minor. Full dps zerk specs will likely do 20-25% more damage… because their base damage will have gone up, their damage multiplier will have gone up, their crit rate will have gone up, their crit damage will have gone up.

As I said, there is speculation in that number, and a healthy amount of it. But I’d wager real money that it wont be far from that 20-25% increase if they go forward with this… and it would be even more extreme if infusions have stats on them too. I’m going to break down the number later today, with exact modeling after gear allocations and plug in the maths to see what a more precise estimate will be… just for the sake of it, but my napkin math estimate ain’t terribly far off, I’m sure. Whether or not you think that constitutes a huge change or not? All on you. I do though.

Wandar.3607:

Alaric.3654:

Hi, this will count as the first and perhaps last time I respond on this forum— I absolutely love watching these discourses and exchanges about a game that I’ve found very enjoyable, but I generally don’t involve myself too much.

I feel the need to add a drop to the bucket however and make my voice heard. I am perhaps the closest thing to a casual player there can be. I haven’t seen Orr yet, haven’t done a single round of WvW and I’ve run through the Ascalonian Catacombs all of one time. I never followed this game or read up on it. I just up and picked it up one day simply because I wanted to enjoy it with a friend. Thus far, Guild Wars 2 has absolutely floored me. I don’t feel at any point that I’m called upon to do any work, only that I sign on and have a good time no matter what I do. It’s been an incredible ride.

That being said, this shift in direction is extremely worrisome. I will not see Ascended Gear for a very long time. I have no clue about stat impacts, the nuances of competitive play are unknown to me and at this point, the new content offered to me with The Lost Shores is nothing but great news.

However.

I believe the addition of gear progression and gated content via the Agony mechanic can and will influence me for months to come. I’ve had nothing but a great experience with the local community and I recognize that this threatens to change that. But how? My opinion is this: the way this content is being introduced is in such a way that the effects of it will be negligible at best to begin with. A back piece and a ring, I speculate, will have little to no immediate impact on the game. But it sets a very dangerous precedent and opens the door for more and more additions like this. You take one step in the wrong direction and you find yourself on the wrong path towards making a game that was once simply about having a good time and sharing that time with close friends and like-minded strangers to an exclusive, tiered game in which the spirit of cooperation is replaced with a cold numbers game in which people will have nothing to do with each other if they don’t meet a certain numerical standard. This isn’t a danger that will have an immediate, obvious impact. It’s a slow-killing poison that over time can and will damage the credibility and the pure joy of playing this game.

I urge the kind folks at ArenaNet to rethink their current course of action, and I urge those who are discontent with this addition to raise their voices not only now, but for weeks and months to come. I know I would very much prefer to be silent and just enjoy this fantastic game and for the most part I do, but I recognize that this is a potential game-changer and I cannot be silent about this. Thank you, and I hope you all have a pleasant day.

How very well written.

I second that. I’ve been known to wax poetic from time to time, but this trumps anything I’ve written with ease. Well worded, expressive, clear, concise…. thanks for taking the time to share how you feel about this issue Alaric.

Hadrians.4567:

Wow 2.5 k + 2k ! ^^ lol

This is our true dps potential!

A Pet that will never constantly hit my Opponent for 2.5k-4k and my Longbow Shots will miss about 50% or more.

L2P

Think about 25k+ Rifleshots from Warriors with 1 Hit/Style

then think about this 5k Dps maybe! with 1 Hit from ur Pet and u….. this will never gonna happen because me and my Pet cant hit moving Opponents ( Missrate about 50% and more )

Every class needs a counter. The ranger counter is people who use movement keys. I’m pretty sure you’ll agree, if they wuld just stand still, or better yet go afk they are far easier, you can even kill warriors, thieves eles, guardians, burst… bunker spec’d, whatever… they just have to slip up ever so slightly for a minute or so and just stand there.

I play a thief as my main while my ranger is shelved… I am really familiar with both professions. I also don’t play the thief as an instagib cheese build.

I smile a little when I come across a ranger by himself in pvp…because it is a guaranteed win. And I don’t mean that as I can outplay him and win, or if he doesn’t screw up I win, or I don’t screw up I win… I mean… I’m going to win. The pet… ah, the pet. In this situation does the ranger far more harm than most people ever realize.

If I’m using my power sword/dagger control build, I’ll unload some dancing daggers, these bad boys bounce off his own pet and end up dealing twice the normal damage. Really punishes them. If I’m using my attrition condition pistol/dagger build, then the pet serves as a free stealth source. I can freely go in and out of stealth because its movements are so predictable I can land cloak and dagger on it every time without fail. It ends badly for the ranger, because the only way to counter that build is to reliably deny it the stealths…. instead the ranger give them out for free.

A trap build is the only build that has ever presented me on my thief with any degree of challenge, but I just have too many cleanses in either build I play for it to really win… it just prolongs the inevitable a smidgin… lol.

I’m not trying to gloat. The state of balance between these two professions is just rediculous. I want my ranger to be more effective, and I want my thief to have a challenge.

If not the ability to stow the pet, then reducing the impact of the pet should be warranted. If instead of 30-50% of the ranger dps coming from the pet, it was rebalanced so that 10-50% of the dps was coming from the pet I think it would go a long way towards encouraging everyone’s desired play styles.

Basically, if you don’t put any focus on pet stats/traits/skills et, your pet would only be at most 10% of your potential, instead of the huge chunk it is currently. Rangers are the most heavily invested into their mechanic by default, and by a very large margin. This doesn’t encourage variably, or allow for as much customability. It pigeon holes the entire profession into a heavy reliance on their mechanic.

Answer these questions… Is there another profession that is forced into using their F mechanic? I mean forced… cannot choose to not use… obligatory and automatic. Is there another profession that by default has around 30% of their damage come though their F mechanic? Is there any other profession at all, that cannot spec so as to avoid using their mechanic completely… where there is a distinct advantage often to not use their F keys at all? If you can think of any, I’m all ears. Tell me what profession it is that has a third of their damage coming from their default mechanic, or over 50% from their traited version…. tell me which profession it is that doesn’t have a build where they simply ignore their F mechanic altogether in 99% of all situations, where it becomes simply an afterthought, or where they don’t benefit more from not using it…. I’m all ears. Is there another profession that has such a huge chunk of their functionality, control, dps etc being controlled by AI? Which one? Is it forced, or do they trait for giving a third or more of their functionality over to AI? Just a few questions I would like the naysayers to answer. I keep coming to the answer: Only Ranger.

Personally, I think the whole discussion is silly. It should be obvious to anyone paying attention that the ranger is the only profession being either carried or held back by AI to such a magnitude. There really isn’t even a close comparison… Right now, by choosing to play a ranger you are choosing to play at most 70% of a character. I find that ludicrous. There absolutely should be an option for rangers to take back a larger % of their character’s functionality! 80%… better. 90% Awesome! 95% Thanks the ANet gods!! 100%?? Holy sweet raptorjesus they really do care!!!!

I don’t understand why there is even any pushback to this idea. Having another option doesn’t force any changes on those who do not choose to select that option… Allowing rangers to free themselves from being so pet dependant doesn’t make you have to give up the whole pet concept… not even remotely. It is absolutely possible to be able to make the ranger pet still be a major role in most builds, and a minor/no role in just one/few builds. More diversity, more options, more play styles, more enjoyment…. there isn’t a downside here.

The only argument anyone is presenting that is remotely legible is along the lines of “ANet will never do it”, or “Ranger isn’t an archer, hurr”… But Anet could do it with relative ease, if they chose to do so. If the idea had enough support. If game balance was truly one of their goals… And Rangers are archers, saying they’re not is ignorant. Anet’s own description calls them “unparalleled archers”… saying otherwise is arguing from either ignorance, or blatantly being obtuse.

I rolled out my thief and enjoyed mindlessly dominating for a little while, but that got rather boring in short order. So I just haven’t been playing in a couple weeks.

I’m pinning all my hopes on this patch, whether I just give up or stay, and I really really wanna stay. Besides the functionality issues and bugs, I love the ranger, and rather am fond of this game in general. I know I’m getting my hopes up, and am a little sick with the anticipation of the changes. I’m optimistic, but a sort of desperate optimism…

Vox Hollow.2736:

Those traits may alter how many times you physically click the F key buttons, but the profession mechanic is far from abandoned because it’s resources are still being monitored and timing it’s use is still a part of the decision making processes Upstairs. The reasons those traits exist is because your desire for the effect is supposed to come into conflict with your desire to use the profession mechanic making the choice of when to press those F buttons more deep, interesting, and meaningful. ~snip~

That is exactly what giving rangers the ability to stow their pet would do! Add a trait for a minor buff while petless, and wabam…. when you have your pet out and when you stow it is now a part of your descision making process! Making choosing to have your pet out more “deep, interesting, and meaningful”.

Right now there is nothing anything but automatic about it. Your pet is out. You can try to stow him, but he will just keep automatically popping back out whenever the hell he wants to. The ranger’s mechanic is entirely AI driven. You have some influence, but not control. And imo, you should have control over your character.

This topic again eh? I see it is also filled with the same uninformed elitism as always too.

Let me splain something, if you will. The group dynamic, the team synergy, the performance of the group is what matters.

And there are many paths to reach a good team. One of them, is indeed, a signet build…

But oh yes, what about FGJ!? That is obviously better than what you blah signet blah blah. Sure it is, in a vacuum… but you are not in a vacuum, you are on a team! Suppose for a moment, that one of your team members can already provide all the aoe fury you could ever hope for? Well.. then FGJ isn’t really going to contribute as much as it would otherwise, since its fury is redundant and pointless. Still have a modest few might stack though… you say. Sure, yet again though, what if a couple of your party members are especially brilliant at handing out them some aoe might?

My point, if you haven’t picked up on it, is a full dps, focused on personal performance build… can very much have a role to play in a party. Especially if they know what they’re doing. They will ramp the speed of that dungeon run an uncanny degree. But the group dynamic has to be right for it to work.

I’m not going to say there are no bad builds, because you could get pretty clever with selecting the most ridiculous choices possible while traiting…. but it isn’t hard to come up with a good build, certainly. The tricky part is making sure your build works for the situation at hand, and that very much includes the build of your party, and the encounters you plan to face.

That is all, you can go back to your bickering about half truths and misunderstood concepts now.

Da Poolp.6809:

Warrior longbow got 20% like the ranger longbow, not 100%

Loki.4871:

Back to that longbow; 20% chance, yes. If you’ve got a devourer next to you, that’s 3 projectiles with a 20% chance each, so you’ve got a 60% chance for something

Probability doesn’t work like that :p

In some regards, it does work like that.

In this example, 3 projectiles fired, each with 20% chance to proc.

First one, 20% chance proc. 80% chance no proc.

Same with the second… and the third. But, what combination of possibilities does that leave us with, and what are the chances of those outcomes? because they could all proc, or none..or one, two… stuff can happen here, and we need to calculate it by god!

.2 × .2 = .04 (2)
.2 × .8 = .16 (1)
.8 × .2 = .16 (1)
.8 × .8 = .64 (0)

.04 × .2 = .008 (3)
.04 × .8 = .032 (2)
.16 × .2 = .032 (2)
.16 × .8 = .128 (1)
.16 × .2 = .032 (2)
.16 × .8 = .128 (1)
.64 × .2 = .128 (1)
.64 × .8 = .512 (0)

Oh noes Rav! Why the wall of numberz?

Those represent the rate the different combinations of possible proc/noproc would occur. We have a 0.8% chance to proc all three shots, for example. While we have a 51.2% chance to not proc any of the three shots. Which means we have a 48.8% chance to proc at least one in those three shots.

But the tricky part, is that knowing the rate we proc at least one isn’t very helpful, not really. What we’re after is a little different. We are looking for the effective proc rate over time, of having fired 3 shots at 20% compared to just one. (That was the original point, if you remember)

To do that, we need to weight our probabilities based on the number of procs it results in.

So, that 0.8% chance to give us 3 procs becomes 2.4% rate to give us 1 proc (on average, over time ofc)

If we do that, for every probability or potential outcome, we end up with… whoa 60%.

Ranger shortbow generally does projectile finishers per second better than Ranger Longbow. Warrior longbow does projectile finishers better than Ranger longbow, too.

Warrior fires 2x with each attack. This is an effective 40% combo finisher rate per attack.

I like the idea of the lone ranger. It really isn’t hard to see how it would work, while the ranger as a whole would still remain pet friendly.

Allow for pet stowing to be fully player controlled. Stowed pets stay stowed until you recall them… manually… yourself. This should be added no matter what else they do anyway, as is the auto summon is frustrating and annoying.

Then add a trait, likely in marksman, that gives a minor damage bonus if the ranger doesn’t have an active pet. Tuned to be less of a boost than a pet. Then it’d always make sense in most situations to use a pet… but still have the option to go petless without fully kittened mode in those situations pets do you no good at all.

The side effect of this, besides just making sense in general? It allows people who otherwise really love the Ranger, but hate the pet… to play the way they would like to play the game. And while being slightly less effective than they otherwise could be if they embraced pets… at least still functional on a more relative scale. It would be an option, even if not a great one.

We wouldn’t see millions of new lone rangers everywhere. But there would be some. And what would be the harm in that? O_o You could still have your pets, hell, you’d still be highly encouraged to have your pets… but at least you have options.

There are traits in the other professions that actively or passively benefit you for not activating your F keys. For not using your class mechanic.

Mesmers get damage% increases, damage taken reduction %s… speed % increases. I know warriors can get damage %s, crit %s…for not using their class mechanic. Waros have a heal that heals more if they don’t use their class mechanic too! Wait… so do mesmers… hrm.

Thieves don’t have anything that benefits from not using steal directly, but some of their builds don’t really use it anyway…with little/no penalties. And their other mechanic, initiative… there are traits that benefit you for using less of it.

Then there is Guardians.. their class mechanic passively gives benefits for not using it… by default. And they can trait for improving that significantly on top of it, even giving their passive effects aoe potential so it benefits others.

This isn’t a foreign concept in this game at all. Just isn’t something they thought the ranger… who is arguably in most need of… should have. Maybe it is because they mix n matched two separate profession to make this class? Maybe because none of the dev team really plays it or knows which direction to take it? Who knows.

One thing I do know though… more options are always better for the players, more enjoyable, more playable. It makes the game better if someone can find the right class/spec to suit their play style of choice, instead of being forced into a style that is sorta close… except all this kitten stupid kitten that comes with it. Allowing players to be able to opt out at a minor cost is always a better choice than to not let them opt out at all ever.

Not only are we forced, literally, to use our class mechanic. Unable to not ever choose to not have a pet running around. Always… active. But it is the only profession that is.

Could you imagine if mesmer illusions we forced to auto shatter every time they created them. Or if warriors attacks were interrupted mid strike to instead burst because they got enough adrenaline. Of if a fleeing thief was auto teleported to an enemy because steal came off CD??

Maybe it wouldn’t be so horrible if toolbet skills activated when the regular utility was activated then, huh? Or if Necros we put into deathshrowd whenever their lifeforce went up…. or how about elementalists just cycling through the elements in order every few seconds…. how fun would that be??

That is what they did for the Ranger.

Companion’s Might adds ~ 1 second of might to the pet, essentially a useless trait. Even in a pet build, any other choice is better.

People keep recommending that swiftness or the move speed trait for your pet helps them hit reliably, this isn’t true. What increasing thier move speed does, is increases thier time on target, basically letting them try to hit more frequently. But if your target is mobile, they will still miss every time, they’ll just be missing more times/second than before…essentially nothing has changed.

What you should be aiming for, with a pet build, is getting your pet to reliably hit more often. That is done by decreasing your target’s mobility! Immobilize does that, CCs like knockdown, stun etc do that. Also, Chill works incredibly well at this, and Cripple does an ok job of it.

If you can do both, alls the better. Getting your pet to hit reliably, and then getting it to hit more frequently… win. But the first step is slowing your target down. That is why any Beastmater focused PvP build really really needs to also be focused on control.

My go to is Chill, because there are numerous potential sources of it, it works really well for increasing your pet’s attack to hit ratio, as it slows your target enough to generally let its attacks land… and since you can have multiple sources of it, cleanses don’t just auto win vs you, because you can reapply.

Axe 3 is a good choice, ranged, low cooldown.
Frost trap is amazing, you can stack up a huge duration of chill on a target with it, and it is aoe. Longer cd though, and of course traps are funky unless traited.
Frost Spirit. Say what you will, but it can be pretty effective if you can work with it. It gives a 5 sec aoe chill. Longer cooldown, clunky, but has the secondary benefit of giving decent 10% damage buff aoe style, which your pet benefits from handily.
Pets. Malicious Training is very handy if your pet uses chill/conditions, adds 50% duration.
Owl is a good choice, imo. F2 is a chill, hits hard. Bird pets are similar to cats in thier damage. Has longer reach for more reliable hits, self swiftness for more tot.
Alpine Wolf is great, F2 chill, also has knockdown and cripple. Canines do moderate damage.
Ice Drake, White Moa.. etc. Pets can be a good source of pets doing more reliable attacks.
Sigil of Ice, Hydromancy, Chilling… all handy options for adding in more chill times/applications.

I’m obviously not suggesting to use all of those at once and go overboard…lol. Just that there are many options to choose from to customize how you do your thang.

You can’t force your pet to attack on the move… so force your target to hold still instead!

I’m not sure why someone would recommend the Lynx and in the same breath say you can get bleed capped. That’s not optimal, if you are getting capped out by your pet, that’s bad. Your pet’s bleeds don’t benefit from your own condition stats, they are nice addition only if you don’t heavily focus on them yourself. it just opens you up to getting all of your bleeds (your dps) and all of your pet’s bleed (its dps) removed by cleansing at the same time.

If you are going to heavily invest in condition damage, it would behoove you to also pick up traps, specifically flame trap. It has a naturally low CD, incredibly low when traited, and adds burning to your repertoire. Other traps are very handy too.

Ranger condition works really well with Rabid gear. This is the gear that focuses on condition damage, precision, and toughness. Coupled with Sigil of Earth, and shortbows positional bleeds and fast attack speed, you can very rapidly apply bleeds which tick for a good deal.

The biggest hang up for shortbow bleeds to overcome for this to be a truly awesome method of condition damage, is the fact your base bleed duration is only 3 seconds. This requires you to stack a good deal of condition duration, preferably in the increments of 35%, 70%, and 100%. Runes are your best bet for duration increase, for a build focused on bleeding specifically, I recommend Aff/Krait 3/3. That gives 166 condition damage and 30% bleed duration.

In PvE/WvW another great source of condition duration is pizza consumable. You can get 40%. Between this and the aff/krait you are at 70% duration, which will give you 5 second shortbow bleeds, and turn your earth sigil bleeds into 8 second bleeds, and your sharpening stone bleeds into 10 second ones. Assuming roughly 50% crit, 70% with fury, you would have an average stack 17 bleeds by just attacking. Quickness could bump this to 25. That is without a pet that bleeds.

Kyosji.8961:

Is this something that Thieves are able to do at a higher level? are they certain skills I’m not seeing?

Shadow Refuge. This is the skill that gets us a nice long stealth.

There are traits that allow regen and health gain while going into or while in stealth too.

You can also chain stealth skills together, use a cloak and dagger, and you follow it with a hide in shadow, which will keep you stealthed longer. There is also a trait to add 1 second to stealth durations.

Kyosji.8961:

As a player coming on and starting off as a Thief and seeing this in WvW, I’m kind of pissed. It seems way over powered to have that much stealth and the ability to stealth so many times during a fight for such a long period of time.

Well, that doesn’t make any sense. You are pissed because other players know what they are doing and you haven’t figured it out yet?? You lost me. You’re playing a thief, why are you pissed about what another thief can do?? O_o You can too…

NE way… You also don’t understand the situation. You should refrain from getting upset until you know what you are even upset about. Do you know? It sounds like you have misplaced and aimless frustration because you fought a player who confused and confounded you and your buddies. Guess what? That is exactly why some people play the thief!

A couple dungeons have rabid type.

My napkin math says that with the situation you described, 1 in 200 times performing 50 salvages will net you 0 t6 mats.

Not uncommon enough of an occurrence to determine anything statistically relevant.

Other than you have just experienced bad luck.

Study.9863:

There is something buggy with Signet of Might.

When used it provides 5 stacks of might, however the displayed value of power for your character goes up by an incorrect value.

P.S. First time poster, anyone know how I can set up mouse-over tooltips on these forums?

According to the displayed value each stack only provides 17 power as opposed to the correct 35.

Displayed condition damage is updated correctly by 35 per stack.

5x 17 = 85

85+ 90 = 175

175/ 5 = 35

Problem solved.

Disregard.6492:

Zsymon.8457:

I agree with some posters, I don’t think thief damage needs to be decreased that much, because you’ll make it impossible for thieves to pve that way due to their low survivability in pve.

The problem is that toughness just doesn’t reduce enough damage, toughness is too weak. If you reduce toughness diminishing returns and increase toughness protection, you can make better hybrid builds where every point of toughness matters. Less people would go full glass cannon because it’s not worth getting any toughness, more people would get say, 400 toughness or so without going full bunker, and then they wouldn’t get instagibbed anymore.

But right now getting toughness means almost nothing, a thief will still burn you down real fast just with auto attacks even.

My suggestion is, leave thief damage alone for now, nerfing their damage will just prevent them from being able to pve anymore, but significantly increase toughness efficiency. Then we can put in some knight armor pieces into our gear to prevent getting instagibbed. Full bunker builds will get stronger, but considering they don’t do much damage at all I don’t see any problem with that. I rather have a fight drag out over a long time against a bunker, than get instagibbed by a thief or melted downed by a mesmer.

This man knows what he’s talking about. I wholeheartedly agree and I hope the Devs take it into consideration.

Of course a change like this could cause a few snags in PvE.

Except there really isn’t diminishing returns on toughness… so the whole premise is faulty. But diminishing return would suggest that getting only some toughness was the smart plan, while he suggests that DR is what is preventing people from getting just some toughness… It is self contradictory. The whole post is confused and lacking a clear direction, other than roughly “I think toughness should do more”.

That is a perfectly valid opinion, but it isn’t being supported by any logical argument here.

Oh, you can do it now. Get a buddy to hop on a warrior, meet him in a sPvP match 1v1, have him let you kill him 5 times with a bloodlust sigil, have him go in with no armor on and no toughness whatsoever and then use frenzy while you do the backstab burst setup that uses sigils for max might stacks… you could probably get 20k easy.

You’re doing roughly triple the damage you’d get on a normal cloth glass cannon from him having on no armor while frenzied… so, yeah, any attack is going to do big numbers. But… while this proves absolutely nothing whatsoever, it is “possible” to hit a 20k backstab still… lol.

Arrys.7145:

Gives up about 50 damage a large tick on a flame trap in exhange for another large tick plus adds to your power direct damage which isn’t unimportant to condition builds as that flows to your pets damage as well as your weapons damage.

Are you suggesting that your power attribute increases your pet’s damage? Because it does not.

Yeah, the difference between which horn/torch you pair up with sword or axe isn’t really a major one really, especially if you weapon swap frequently. It’s nice to hear the reasoning people have for which they choose though, to gain additional perspective on how other people do things.

With these four weapons equipped, I’m generally not trying to fight from long range anyway, my “sweet spot” is just outside melee range, and adjusting as the situation requires. I don’t really use the sword to “attack” so much as to stay out of the melee range of others. And with axe/torch find I’m generally close enough to drop the aoe from torch and nab my target with it, plus extra combos.

I can see the axe/horn being a better setup for a more pet centric default set, that seems like it’d work rather well. And sword/dagger would be rather incredible for an avoidance/condition set. I really wish i could work that into my setup, but the horn is just too much awesome to pass on most of the time.

Your crit rate can go higher. But it’d drop your power a little, and your crit damage % a good deal.