Guild Wars 2

I would pick a Space marine. Awesome looking Chapter armor, good guns, and definitly kicking kitten #8230;.

You mean I’m not the only one using gold dye on big-shouldered Norn plate, whipping up a battle standard and yelling “For the Emperor!” Well, that’s a relief… :P

I think we need a tad more details in this thread. Like which class you’re playing, and in what scenario, when you name a specific class.

For example, someone earlier said #1 is “Engineer by a LONG, LONG mile”. Now, I play an Engineer as my secondary char, primary being Mesmer, and I cannot for the life of me fathom why.

I feel Engi is very flexible, yes. I feel it is highly mobile and very useful in WvW. But I really can’t remember playing any class (and I played them all at some point during the betas and/or since release) where I said to myself “Oh, crap! An Engineer!” and my pulse rate went up. Never happened.

On the other hand, when a Warrior jumps me and I didn’t see him, or a Thief starts unloading at me before the engine even renders him, that is a definite “Oh, crap!” moment where it’s do-or-die. With a warrior the reflex gut reaction is to roll away, but if you are CCd already, that half-second’s hesitation when the roll fails will see you killed.

Similarly, a lot of people say Mesmer. And I can’t for the life of me work out why. Certainly for a complete newbie that can’t tell a clone from the real thing, a Mesmer can be a daunting foe. But against someone who knows precisely what ability was just used, and what it did, and most often where the Mesmer is as a result of it, the class is very easy and predictable since abilities are so prescriptive.

Similarly, I find it strange when people make claims like for example Mesmer is impossible to stomp. OK, I’ll grant you that on occasion the downed ability teleport will put Mesmer through a wall or somewhere where he’s not immediately visible. But that wall teleportation is really just a bug, Staff #2 ability of the Mesmer class suffers from the same thing – you often end up inside walls, underground, etc., which gets you killed in PvE more often than not. And how can you confuse a downed clone without a big red arrow over its head with the real Mesmer with a big red arrow over his head?

Plus, lovely little Ctrl+T, which will put a red bull’s eye over the Mesmer takes all guesswork right out of it. The only way for him to ditch it is full-on invisibility, it won’t be fooled by clones. And how invisible can a Mesmer be? Well, there’s Prestige, Veil, Mass Invisibility and Decoy. Have I missed something? Prestige is Torch-offhand only, and rather weak. Veil and Mass Invisibility have very long cooldowns to be practical and short-ish durations (4-5 sec respectively). Mass Invis is an elite, and has a very long cast time, all too easy to stop. And even if you fall for it, it’s just 5 seconds, during which he can’t DPS you anyway, and both phantasms and clones die very easily.

I guess I just don’t see it.

For me personally, I would rate classes as Thief, Warrior, Ranger. Not because of their individual strength perhaps, but because the classes perform very well with an absolute minimum of effort. Not quite “Spam #1 and win”, but very, very close to it. It takes precious little skill to be highly effective with these classes. Just takes a bit of luck and positioning to totally wreck with them.

Voodoo Tina.4180:

OK I get the complaint people have. Really I do. But I don’t think they are making the right complaint.

The issue is that certain DE’s have so many players present the mobs did to AoE before the Mesmer can do anything. So they want all classes to have the same kind of AoE so everyone can do the same thing and its fair. But isn’t really the case that we can AoE just fine everywhere else? Not the same, but we definitely get the job done. Like someone said already, a part of the problem is that the spawn points are too predictable. If there weren’t so many mobs spawning from the same points, AoE would be less of a concern. Also, if mobs are scaling to the number of people present, they aren’t scaling properly. If mobs melt in 1 sec there’s really no challenge, so the mobs should get tougher to kill to keep it from being a silly grind fest. If mobs were lasting longer, this problem would disappear.

This is true and would help to an extent. But a large disparity in loot would still exist, even if we ignore other benefits like XP gain. But the problem wouldn’t disappear.

I keep bringing an Engineer into this, because the class just beautifully illustrates the issue. It’s fairly simple – Grenade Kit, fully traited, spammable, 1500 range. Turrets – can be positioned anywhere, don’t die just because their target did.

Even if mob spawns are randomized and staggered all over the place, on my Engineer I can “reach out and touch” a mob with my grenades before anyone else can, as grenades have high AoE radius as well as range (1500 range + radius of the explosion).

Further, I can be “in several places at once” thanks to turrets. Thumper in choke #1, Flamer in choke #2, myself in choke #3, hopefully with line of sight to choke #4 within 1800 range to reach with grenades.

This of course plays into the “area denial” class design of the Engineer. Which is fine and dandy. But it still doesn’t solve the problem of Engineer walking away from the same event with considerably more XP, loot, etc., than a Mesmer. Heck, more loot period than most other classes!

At the same time, how do you balance it? Nerf grenades? They’re the only kit that sort of works right now, most others are a joke. Nerf turrets? They’re weak as it is outside of tapping mobs – they can’t solo them, that’s for dang sure. Simply put, the class works because of the way tapping/looting is designed.

Which is why I feel the whole DE XP/loot issue is not really a class issue per se. It’s just that Mesmer suffers from it BY FAR more than any other class, and is just a perfect illustration of what’s wrong with the system.

Buuuut I’ll admit that perhaps it’s not as great a problem. As someone above pointed out, some events include 100+ mobs and piles of loot. Other events are “break 4 eggs without dying to spiders”, which can be done with a perma-swiftness class without killing anything at all.

So it is only a “problem” is you see getting screwed on XP and loot as a problem in the first place. If you don’t care about XP any more (level 80), and don’t care about loot (you are happy with the look you have), it’s not a problem really. Ironically, since many Engineers hardly ever use their main weapons, and there’s no legendary kits, the class that is very well suited for that is the class that also probably has less interest in it! :P

Same as a Thief. The only difference is you can’t spam the same ability more than once.

Which is precisely the problem, because most, if not all, abilities in this game are situational. Fact.

Examples: Feedback on melee enemy won’t do much. Distortion when you are not being attacked won’t do much. We can all agree these are true, yes? Moving on.

Due to lack of cooldowns, a Thief can use situational abilities, multiple times, when needed, and as many times as needed. There is rarely a time where a Thief NEEDS a weapon ability, but it is on cooldown. On a Mesmer, this is a standard state – you use an ability, and it goes on cooldown – whether you succeed or fail.

Example: Multiple Feedbacks when being fired at by ranged attacks. Multiple back-to-back Distortions when being focus fired. Etc., etc.

Also, a “fail condition” on weapon abilities does not exist on a Thief, practically speaking. For example, suppose I want to slow someone, as an Engineer. I fire my net gun. They dodge. Net fails. Net gun is now on cooldown. This is a fail condition. I cannot attempt to reapply the net gun for 10 seconds, at which point it can again fail.

Now, same scenario, but with a Thief. I throw a dagger (#4 ability). He dodges. I throw again. He dodges, but now has no endurance. I throw again…and again…and again…and again. Eventually, it WILL land as the enemy will be out of dodges and all other defensive abilities will be on cooldowns. As such, if a Thief wants you crippled, you will be crippled.

The likelihood of success is significantly higher, simply because he can hit and miss and hit again. On any other class, if you miss, the moment’s passed and by the time it’s off cooldown the parameters will likely have changed.

This class mechanic is UNIQUE in this game. No other class can use optimal weapon ability for the situation more than once until situation resolves itself.

I’m not saying the class is imbalanced or OP because of it. I’ll let people draw their own conclusions. But the mechanic is certainly a unique one.

This is the part where PvP pros will tell you “just dodge it”… :P

Having said that, I really feel damage in this game is a little over the top. Too many classes can do colossal damage in a second or two. It can usually be countered, but slightest bit of lag or any other issue, and you’re a corpse. This is especially evident in WvWvW, where culling often comes into play and the player killing you isn’t even drawn at times. You just go from alive to dead.

Ultimately play what you enjoy.

Having said that, I really dislike medium armor design in this game. Both light and heavy has some variety, while medium tends to heavily favour trenchcoats. And most helmets are just masks of some sort or wide-brim hats. Wish there was more variety there.

What is stupid, is failing to research a game before you buy it, it should be abundantly clear GW2 is more PvP focused than your typical MMORPG, they even want to eventually make the tPvP an esport, as such class design / balance will always make that a priority. But even aside from that in most games there are classes that are weak at AOE, because they are stong in some other way, again it is called balance.

That’s just it! Mesmer is not weak in AoE in PvP! :P

In PvP players don’t just run in a straight line and keel over when you fart in their general direction like mobs do. Nor do they have predictable spawn locations you can AoE down. In PvP you have the time to bring up your illusions, and from there AoE is considerable. Still not reliable or fast or on-demand, but still considerable. And THAT I do accept as balanced.

BUT, this game also has a strong PvE element. Case in point – dungeons, world boss events, etc. Even in WvWvW, a lot of it is PvE – knocking down walls, killing keep commanders, disrupting supply lines by killing dolyaks and NPC guards, etc. And in PvE, Mesmer’s AoE effectiveness is inversely proportional to the number of people present.

Sylosi.6503:

The amount of XP you get from mobs is minimal compared to what you get for completeing hearts/getting gold in events etc.

Define “minimal”. I just did a DE, that involved killing about 40 bandits in total. Each kill was 38 XP. And I got around 2k for the completion. I’m not sure if it’s because I was downranked (low level zone), but that is still 1520 XP for the kills, 2k for the DE. Is that “minimal” to you? This is on Engi, by the way, with a near-100% tap rate. On Mesmer you’d be lucky to get half that.

I hate to break it to you, but in this game DEs (and PvE in general) come a poor second in terms of importance to PvP (and in particular to structed tournament PvP) the class mechanics will be balanced on that, not DEs.

At the risk of sounding hostile, according to whom? I have zero interest, NONE, in tPvP. I did a fair share of sPvP though. And my principal interest is in WvWvW, which is about 60% PvE, including heavy DEs.

You are arguing player preference. I’m arguing game mechanics. One is debatable, the other is pretty cut and dry unbalanced.

People are in for a long wait if you think they are going to upset tPvP balance by giving mesmers more AOE just for tagging stuff in DEs, a the reason a lot of peopel are playing this game is Anets focus on putting PvP balance first, rather than the poor secodn it is in most MMORPGs to PvE.

This assumes Mesmer is balanced right now. Take a good look at sPvP board and you’ll see tons of complaints about 2 classes primarily – Thieves and Mesmers. Now, personally I disagree at least on the Mesmer front, and the whole hysteria comes from having to fight something you can’t even see or at least not easily identify (especially if you’re a total noob, as most people still are).

But the point is, arguably Mesmer right now is not balanced, if you believe public opinion. Look at all the threads of “rate the classes” and “what’s the hardest for you”, and Mesmer usually shows up in top 3.

So I wouldn’t really argue that classes are balanced right now. In general I personally feel some classes get WAY too much payoff for very little work. Others get almost no payoff for tons more work. And others yet are simply not viable. Doesn’t exactly scream “balance”.

Though I wouldn’t ask for class changes necessarily. Perhaps just changes to how tapping mobs works. That is, if someone whom I gave a stack of Might kills a mob, I should get some credit even if I didn’t do any damage to that mob myself. That might alleviate some of the issues Mesmers have, as a quick and dirty solution. HOWEVER, this still wouldn’t even come close to balance, as once again my Engi can just toss an Elixir at a clump of friendlies and give them each 4 boons, including retaliation. It’s ranged and has a 20 sec CD untraited. When it comes to “spreading the joy” of boons, Engis are at least as fast as Mesmers too.

But anyway, I’ve said my piece on this topic and I think I’ve covered all the aspects. Anything else and I’ll just be repeating myself. You can agree or disagree. Most importantly, ANet can agree or disagree. If they disagree – well, let’s just say I foresee Mesmers will continue to be the least played class in this game for a long time to come.

Creslin.1758:

I will completely agree that mesmer is not the best AoE class in the game. However I don’t really agree with the rest of your post…I think it’s exaggerated.
…
Anyway, in most DEs, mobs last a few seconds, which is plenty of time for you to tag most of them, even with mesmer AoE. Also, it’s REALLY easy to get gold contrib for a DE, and that’s all you need to get the most DE experience. So yeah, not really seeing how mesmer is “crippled” in DEs. Yes, they aren’t the best, yes it takes more work…no they are not crippled.

You’re missing the point a bit. Getting gold is very, very easy, unless you’re in a small group with very strong classes and nobody else is there. I’ve had cases where I worked my butt off and got silver in such cases. But anywho, this is not really critical. I agree getting Gold Medal is easy.

What is not easy is all the bonus XP you’re missing. I strongly suggest you make yourself an Engi, and do some DEs with grenade kit. You will notice TONS of bonus XP from kills you’ve tapped. On a Mesmer, you’ll tap a lot less, and get a lot less XP from the same amount of time in the same event.

Let’s look at a basic level 40 event. You get around 2500 XP from that. Ballpark. Well, from a single kill if memory serves I get around 70 XP and up to 110 XP bonus depending on what gets killed. But let’s say I just get 100 XP per kill tapped, all told. How many kills in an event? Depends on an event, but the one I’m thinking of in Harathi, let’s say 10 pulls of 5 mobs? 50 kills? That’s 50×100 XP = 5,000 XP. With 100% tap rate, you get 5,000 XP. With 50% tap rate, you get 2,500 XP, etc. The less you tap, the less XP you get.

As a second effect from all this tapping is the LOOT. As in items, crafting components, salvaging components, etc. It is not uncommon for me to trigger a chain on my Engineer with completely empty bags (crafted 11-slots), and by the end of a 3-event chain to have totally full bags. The kind of full that deposit collectable and opening containers cannot alleviate. Actually full bags of loot. This translates into huge amounts of gold, on top of the DE reward. Plus upgrades. Plus easier crafting because I’m more likely to get mats. Etc.

Finally, given that mesmers have poorer tagging capabilities than the other classes, why don’t we discuss how engineers can’t create portals as good as mesmers?

If you could level and get items from creating portals, I’d totally agree with you. Sadly, it has no effect on our earning potential. It makes a handful of things, like jumping puzzles, easier. But this is VERY debatable. My Engi for example has a targeted leap that makes many difficult leaps absolutely trivial. Because unlike our Blink, it actually WORKS.

With warriors and reflect, you have a bit of a point. Aside from Guardians I don’t think anyone else reflects as well as we do. But first, we have to trait for it (Master level, 40+) and second not many mobs are ranged. And now that iWarden is nerfed/fixed, our reflection potential took a VERY steep nosedive.

Every class is different, they all have different strengths and weaknesses. And IMO, that is a GOOD thing. It gives me a reason to try different classes. If every class was equally as good at everything, it would be a boring game.,

I don’t mind different. But when I press 1 on class A, and on average tap 5 mobs, and get loot out of them plus 5x XP, and on class B I press 1, and on average tap 1 mob and get loot out of one with 1x XP, this is fundamentally unfair. For leveling, for farming, etc.

Speed, and lack thereof, much like our lack of strong reliable on-demand AoE is what limits the Mesmer’s “earning potential”.

First, let us establish that Mesmer is NOT a fast, mobile class. Let’s just agree on that. By comparison, I present you my Engineer – with 10 trait points I’m taking anyway, I have permanent swiftness. Throw on top of that Super Speed (+100% speed boost for 5 seconds on 45 sec CD), and there’s nothing that can move this fast. Not even Thief who blows all his initiative on SB #5. Not long-term.

And before you ask, the reason I use Engineer as example is because I both play one, and they’re second least-played class next to Mesmer, so presumably underpowered/unfavoured.

Now, consider our lack of speed in WvW. If you die, you will spawn far from the fight. Meaning you will get back slower than other classes, unless those other classes help you. This is true. You CANNOT get from spawn back to fight as fast on a Mesmer as I can on my Engineer. This is easily provable and verifiable. This means your POTENTIAL to participate in the battle, and thus earn XP/loot/whatever is harmed severely.

Next, consider things you can do in WvW which earn you karma/XP/whatever and help your team? Most of them require high mobility. Like covert ops attacks at enemy supply lines. This is ideally done by thieves – high mobility, great escape ability. Mesmer can’t do it.

Etc., etc.

Now, consider something simple – like leveling. And getting 100% map discovery. You get XP from that too. As we’ve established, I can do that on Engi much faster than on a Mesmer. Thus, my XP/hr will be considerably higher, as you get XP from discovery as well. All else being equal, this means I will get my Legendary faster.

In other words, because we’re slow, our “earning potential”, both in terms of XP, loot, karma, etc., is seriously harmed. And though admittedly I did not look deep into this issue, I believe Mesmer is one of the slowest classes in the game, if not the slowest. We have some “displace” skills, but very little real mobility. We have to sacrifice far too much (like use Runes of the Centaur over others) to get the kind of mobility other classes get basically free.

Sylosi.6503:

Just to make it clear I’m fine with how Mesmer’s AOE is, because I don’t expect every class to be equally good at everything.

This should really be false. For everyone who’s given it some thought. Mesmer HAS to have as viable an AoE for tagging as the best classes. Simply due to how looting and XP is done in this game.

Let’s look at WoW really quick. If you are alone, if you land the first hit, you get the XP/loot. If someone else taps the first mob, you get nothing, and you know about it by the color of the portrait. When in a group, regardless of how much damage you do, you get both XP and loot. Similarly in a raid (40 people group), you can do zero DPS and still get full XP and loot. Thus, in WoW is did not matter which class has a lot of AoE, some or none. Your XP did not suffer much. Though admittedly classes with great AoE were also fastest levelers and farmers, which put others at a disadvantage. Mage, for instance, was arguably the best trash-farming class and leveled faster than anyone else.

Now, in GW2, your DPS and its AoE potential are directly linked to your XP and loot. Simply put, in DEs, if you don’t have strong spammable AoE, you will get considerably less XP and loot from the same event, with the same amount of work, compared to a class with strong spammable AoE.

This is not right. It is not a question of “not good at everything”. DEs in this game are as important an element as anything else really. They’re what rifts were in Rift. Heck, they practically are rifts, just done differently. A class being weak in this department makes the class TOO weak.

Guess what I’m trying to say is, unless the way mobs are tapped is changed, I cannot accept this as “fine”. If, for example, I gave someone else Might or Protection, and they tapped a mob, and I would get credit/loot for the kill, then perhaps Mesmer might be fine. But right now? Not even close. You get CONSIDERABLY less loot/XP from DEs on a Mesmer. And this both slows down the leveling, the gold you make, the quality of your gear, your crafting progression (from salvage of unusable drops), etc., etc., etc.

It simply cripples us in PvE (and by relation WvW as well). This is not something I can live with, and neither should you. It’s a fundamentally flawed and unfair state that needs changing ASAP.

Well, it’s a max 9% increase. It’s possible that it is barely visible. Compared to a thief signet giving 25%, or classes with permanent swiftness giving 33%, or classes with sprint 100% speed increase (like Engineer Super Speed toolbelt skill from Slick Shoes).

Personally I wouldn’t bother. Try other classes, and you’ll see comparatively speaking Mesmer has the mobility of a barn. With cows in it. Sleepy cows.

I like P/S too. Only thing is, I very much wish the cooldown on all shield skills was 10-15 seconds shorter. I mean, let’s face it, with a 30 sec and 40 sec CD, an ability is basically a ‘once per fight’ use. Compare that to a pistol offhand and its 15 sec CD Blowtorch, which you can use at least twice as often.

That’s pretty much the only reason I often find myself dual-wielding pistols. Just not worth the cooldown most of the time. Unless I know I’m going against very heavy-hitting ranged mobs.

Speaking “purely PvE”? I feel Mesmer is one of the weaker, if not the weakest, class. Relatively slow ramp-up time, if the target you’re ramping up on dies, your entire effort is wasted, shatters often result in nothing if illusions can’t reach target fast enough, etc. Just a slew of massive issues.

For PvE, and to a large extent WvW, I prefer Engineer. Not the strongest, not by the furthest stretch of the imagination, but far stronger than Mesmer. Also arguably far more complex and challenging class. Try juggling 3-4 kits on Engineer, and Mesmer will seem like a total kitten by comparison.

It’s a “known bug”. Currently like you said some traits disable others. We assume it’s a bug. But I don’t believe anyone at ANet said anything whether it’s intentional or not. At least not that I know of. I’m guessing not, as this would essentially make two trait trees cancel each other out, but like I said we just don’t know for sure.

I’m probably not the only mesmer with this issue, but it really irritates me that Phase Retreat oftenly gets me stuck in a wall or the ground, and a lot of times with foes nearby, so you can’t even waypoint out of.

You think getting stuck in a wall is bad? I got ported inside a dolyak once. And got stuck there… True story.

Mezmers can AOE, but like all combat with the mezmer, you have to work much harder for a smaller effect… all the while only gaining access to basically summonable target dummies.

Time is a luxury you don’t often have. In DEs with fixed spawn points, targets die as they phase in, before you can even target them, to ground-target AoE damage. There’s not even enough time to cast iBerserker, never mind actually have time for him to appear or actually do his attack. You are further hampered by the fact that if the target you’ve been using to bring up illusions dies, your illusions die with it. If some hotshot warrior makes it his mission in life to kill the mob you’ve just blown your Mirror Images and a dodge on, it’ll die long before your clones jog to it at a leisurely pace to shatter, and you’ll still do no damage.

I honestly don’t mind working much harder for smaller effect. But it just totally blows when I have to work much harder for literally zero effect at times. Just because of flawed mechanic design.

hackks.3687:

Mesmers gonna get nerfed hard. Bet on it.

You know, you’re probably right. I mean, Mesmer is the least played class in the game, according to ANet. Also one of the slowest levelers, less mobile than most others, with less reliable AoE. But hey, let’s nerf the crap out of it!

Mesmers have AoE. And they don’t. It depends on what you mean by AoE, and how meticulous you are with your definition.

For example, consider bounce attacks. Do they bounce? Yes. Up to 4 times, fully traited. Except they tend to prioritize friendlies. You can test it yourself. Pull 2 mobs. Toss GS #2, it’ll fly from you, to mob #1, then BACK to you, then back at mob #1 or mob #2, and then if traited back to you. But one thing never changes – if you are close enough, it’ll prioritize you over the second mob. Same goes for other friendlies. You’ll give them boons with your bounces, but you won’t damage the mobs. As such, this is not really AoE.

Sword #3 is nice. But it’s melee range. You can’t move doing it. And while you can root ONE mob (with Sword #2 tapped twice), the other targets can just run past you if you don’t have 100% of the aggro. And then there’s the cooldown, 8-10 seconds? During which you are in melee range and more or less vulnerable, which is hardly ideal.

Then there’s shatters. Except A) it takes time to create illusions for them, and illusions need to travel from where they are to target to shatter. If primary target dies before they get there, it’s no shatter, no damage.

We have damage phantasms. But really only Berserker and Warden are true AoEs. Berserker’s path is unpredictable – sometimes he hits 1 mob, sometimes all. Warden doesn’t move, and dies incredibly easy to melee mobs. I’ve seen him get 1-shot before he can even visually appear more often than I care to admit in PvE. And he is of course stationary, and Focus #4 pull is not precise enough to guarantee good DPS out of him. And with the recent nerf/bugfix to his attack recharge, he’s lackluster at best.

Now, compare that to TRUE AoE classes. Like Engineer, for example. Well, with Grenade kit, you have 1500 range (not a typo, 1500), your basic attack #1 is spammable (no cooldown at all), and you throw 4 grenades. Aim anywhere. They WILL land where you tell them to, and do damage to whatever is there. You can miss with them, which is the only thing keeping the kit from being godmode. And then #2-5 you have your special grenades – DoTs, slow, etc.

Next, consider Mine Kit. Same principle, but no need to target. Again totally spammable. Does AoE damage. No way to avoid it, except not being close to the mine. With right traits, when you roll, you drop a free mine the way a traited mesmer drops a clone. Except it does good AoE damage all by itself, unlike the clone.

Then there’s the Flamethrower – drop a wall of FLAME that BURNS, just like we drop our Into the Void. Your #1 attack is short-medium range cone AoE, and is spammable. Similar goes for the Elixir Gun.

Then, take a look at Coated Bullets in Firearms tree. Description is short and sweet – “Pistol shots pierce”. Not that impressive, right? But what it does is make your pistol shots effectively AoE. Combine that with Explosive Shot, with blows up on impact, hitting anything nearby as well, and add piercing to that, and what you see is a HUGE wave of numbers from each autoattack.

And that’s not counting turrets, some of which are AoEs as well – like Thumper and Flame. They just sit there, happily, as as soon as anything gets close, it starts taking AoE damage. Fun. And unlike illusions, turrets don’t die just because your target did.

And all this is not even counting the toolbelt skills. Really beautiful things, like Grenade Barrage and Big Ol’ Bomb. Which reminds me, remember those annoying heart quests where you have to destroy objects, like centaur weapon racks? Yeah. Plop down a Big Ol’ Bomb near 3 of them, and watch what happens. Granted, both of those have long-ish 30 sec CDs…but hey, if you have a Tools trait, each time you pop one of those you also fire a bolt of friggin’ lightning that will jump 3 times! And it doesn’t go for friendlies like our bounce – it just kills enemies. You know, that thing that gives you XP/gold/etc? Yeah, that.

So, do Mesmers have AoE? Yeah, I guess. Do they come even within shouting distance of TRUE AoE classes? lol no. If you think so, you’re dreaming.

edyn.6413:

I actually noticed this last night while grouping with three friends. I’m a Staff/Scepter+Focus Mesmer and I had noticed that I was hardly getting any mobs to loot. I was getting Silvers in Events when I was there from the beginning dropping Chaos Storm, spamming Chaos Wind, and dropping my Illusional Warden as much as I could. Everyone else in my group (my husband included) got Golds and substantially more mobs that they were able to loot.

Everyone else last night thought it was weird as well. I just thought I was bugged or something. I didn’t realize that my conditional damage may be so slow and sustained as to not be able to land a tag on the mobs before they are killed.

Yep. That’s pretty much what I’m seeing as well. And this is rather glaring if you try a class that does have good spammable AoE.

I gave the example of Engineer, and the class is absolutely excellent. I mean, suppose there’s an event with 3 spawn points. I stand on one, and throw down a flame wall or just spray with a flamethrower. There, I tapped all the mobs. I got 1-2 turrets sitting at the spawn #2. They don’t tap all mobs, but about 90% I’d say. And the third spawn is about 1800-2000 away (guess), but I can easily reach it with my 1500-range grenades. So I don’t even have to run there, I can just toss grenades hardly ever moving from spawn #1.

At the end of the event, it is not uncommon for me to run out of bag space, when I start practically empty. This never ever ever happens with my Mesmer. Not ever. Hardly what I would call “balance”, considering DEs are “endgame” for GW2.

Some people don’t get what “mobility” means, I guess.

Let me give you an example – my Engineer has 100%+ swiftness uptime. In and out of combat. How? Simple. Medkit #5 is 10 sec swiftness, 20 sec CD. Switching to any kit adds 5 seconds of swiftness. So, switch to MedKit +5 seconds, pop #5 +10 seconds = 15 seconds of swiftness. From there on, switch kits or just refresh the medkit every once in a while, and you have a 10-15 sec swiftness buff throughout. And that’s on top of the leap attack, the backward leap attack, etc., etc. Thief is similar, only with a simple signet you have a permanent +25% with zero thought required.

Now, Mesmer CAN sort of get the same thing. You just have to use the Focus offhand, use Runes of the Centaur, and use the weakest heal we got. Quite a tradeoff, for something other classes do either passively or with minimum amount of work.

And then there’s “mobility” that people say we got a lot of. But those are really just short range displacements. For example, Staff #2, can be 5 sec CD. And it’s a backward leap of about 3 steps worth. When it works and doesn’t shove you underground or through the wall or up a nearby dolyak’s rear. Is it mobility? I guess. Is it more mobility than say a Thief spamming HS? Doubtful.

OK, let’s talk about Mesmer issues and mob tapping in DEs, and to a lesser degree player tapping in PvP (WvW).

First, the obvious. Sometimes spawn points are known, meaning all the classes with spammable AoE just spam their AoEs at that location, and mobs die faster than you can summon even one illusion. So things like shatters do not work at all. You could stand at spawn yourself and spam Sword #2 when mobs spawn, but given 2-3 spawn points, even at 100% tap rate you will only average 30-50% of mobs. By comparison, on my Engineer I leave a turret at spawn #1, spam grenades at spawn #2, and roll (bombs) at spawn #3, with tap rate of roughly 85-95%.

Second, when the spawn location is not precisely known, I have time to bring up illusions. Some methods are fast – Mirror Images and a single roll = 3 clones, nearly instant. Problem? 30 sec CD. Less with talents, but not much less. Too slow to do it every spawn. Second problem with this is that if the target dies , you will do no damage as illusions vanish. So if I’m unlucky and target a mob that everyone else targets, it dies while clones are still en route to shatter, and no shatter -> no damage -> no tap -> no loot/xp/tags/whatever.

Now, some people will mention GS and Staff and their bounce. Problem with that is, bounce seems to prioritize allies. That is, it’ll hit the enemy, and bounce to ally next. Only bounces to enemy if no ally is present. Which in DEs never happens. But in an absolutely ideal situation, you might tap 3 mobs. Although often just one attack isn’t fast enough, and again with brutal AoE DPS coming down on the spawn position, you really don’t have much time.

Some AoE phantasms, such as iBerserker, do help. And cooldown can be made relatively short (12 sec?). Not quite enough, but not bad. Problem? The Berserk spin direction is relatively unpredictable. Sometimes it’ll hit most mobs, sometimes just the one you spawned him on.

Glamours and Chaos Storm do not work. Damage is usually too low to tap, and most of all their cooldowns are prohibitively long to be used on every spawn.

Now, there’s some tricks that can be used, such as pulling the whole spawn sideways with Focus #4, but this really tends to kitten people off. And once again, 20 sec CD is fairly risky in that it likely won’t be ready for every spawn. Depends on the event, of course.

Am I missing something here? Or is this class specifically designed to be totally screwed when it comes to getting loot out of DEs?

Note: I am NOT talking about getting the gold medal. You can be blind, deaf and dumb and play with just your big toe and still get gold in most DEs with any class. It’s hard not to. I’m talking about mob tapping, which is what gives you XP and loot.

pyrokarat.5280:

It honestly looks like the designers just got lazy/ completely forgot.

My understanding is that Mesmer class was the last to be added to the game. So it’s entirely possible they just didn’t have time to do it.

I wouldn’t say melee sword is useless. You could stack confusion with shatter, and then unload at the mob with Sword #2 while invulnerable. While you’re doing that, the mob will swing at you and trigger confusion backlash. Depending on your traits, you would also have protection and retaliation up, which will help. In the offhand, if you have a pistol, follow up Sword #2 with Pistol #5 stun, and you can take a few more swipes.

Sword damage is pretty good, and every 3rd strike strips a boon, which is rather nice against some mobs. You can also go sword/sword or scepter/sword and have 1 or 2 blocks. Which means you can stand still for quite a while if need be, because between 2 blocks, Sword #2 giving invincibility and then Shatter #4 giving another 4 seconds of invincibility, you can just stand there and swing away.

I usually kept a GS as my mainstay weapon, but lately I’ve been using GS+Sword/Pistol and it’s working fine. Different, but fine. Ever since they fixed iWarden, focus has become lackluster. And I agree – Scepter, Focus and some other things could use some looking into.

Overall, to me, Mesmer is a very weak PvE class any way you cut it. Illusions as aggro control and damage mitigation are very unreliable – very often I have 3 illusions up, right in a mob’s face, but it keeps chasing me. Our utilities are nice, but other classes arguably have identical or better ones. iWarden was unique, but now that it’s been fixed our usefulness in dungeons plummeted. We are still stupidly weak in DEs when it comes to tapping mobs to get the loot.

Worst part of it all – I really do not expect it to be fixed. There will be tweaks, sure. But as far as tapping mobs in DEs goes, I don’t think ANet will do a single thing. Which means as a PvE farming char, Mesmer will be grossly inferior to most other classes.

I suggest an Engineer. With three or more kits, you’re looking at 15-20 abilities, plus 4 belt slots. The class is a HECK of a lot more complex than Mesmer. Arguably most complex class in the game, really. Someone at ANet said Necro, but honestly I just don’t see it. The class is also quite clumsy, but powerful if you can learn to live with it.

Not totally fixed per se. I mean, the Mine Kit is quite a bit wonky – works as long as mines hit. As soon as they stop hitting, autoattack turns off.

I sort of get why they made it this way – if I target someone in 1200 range and press autoattack and my char starts dropping mines, what good does it do? But I think range needs to be a bit more to compensate for kiting and so on.

Close, very close, but still no cigar.

This is indeed Sword #3. This also means “Mesmer is in melee range”. Just use your class’ knockback/stun/blind/whatever because Sword #2 is likely coming, and that hurts.

Nice. But I guess this still does nothing for massive “1 spam” for Grenade Kit. And seeing as this kit is one of the most effective engineer kits, my fingers still won’t get a break.

tagnut.8621:

Yes we understand you’re taking it slow, but mesmers and thieves account for the majority of classes played in spvp now.

Not to rain on your parade, but according to ArenaNet graph the Mesmers are THE LEAST PLAYED CLASS IN THE GAME. No matter how many there are in PvP, there are way, way, WAY more guardians, warriors, rangers, etc.

Your observations are wrong. That is all.

Having said that, I feel Mesmers need to be fixed, not nerfed. They have tons of traits and skills that simply do not function, some illusions are bugged, etc. Nerfing them before fixing them will simply wipe out the class as it will be utterly unplayable. Mesmers, as it is, are probably the slowest leveling class in the game as they lack any reliable and meaningful AoE.

Kithzyan.5034:

My Bugfix
Fix the ‘kits as bundles’ problem and let us have sigils, stats and autoattack working like we’ve been told is coming for so long.

This. Pretty much. I feel this is the only element of the class that really bothers me.

My change would be to review the downed state abilities of the Engineer. They seem REALLY lackluster compared to many other classes (especially Thief and Mesmer).

I’m not sure I agree or not. But most abilities (including fireballs, bullets, etc.) are not ground-target. As such, they’re much easier to cast and much more likely to be on-target.

If grenades are to be a test of skill, then damage has to be buffed, IMHO. If I have to hit moving unpredictable targets in PvP with them, then it should pay off in a major way – as in if they don’t dodge or get out of the way, they should get badly mangled. Much more so than currently. Or grenade #1 skill should have the option of non-ground target and autoattack as well. To bring it in line with other weapons.

The Mesmer is fine. I play an engineer as well, and I prefer my Mesmer. It’s okay if a particular class doesn’t click with you, it doesn’t mean it’s “broken” or in need of changes. It means you should play another class… like your engineer.

Begging your pardon, but a class that gets royally screwed on the loot in DEs, which in GW2 constitute “endgame” cannot by definition be “fine”. This includes both PvE and PvP DEs (WvWvW).

Guys,

You HAVE to realize that illusions as AoE simply do not function in DEs.

Some here made an argument that you can trait it, so when the illusion dies, nearby enemies get a random condition. But you have to realize that in many/most events, an average mob dies in ~2-3 seconds. That’s not enough for a condition to tap it. Especially when the precise spawn point is known, many classes just spam their AoEs on that spot and enemies die as they spawn. First example of this in Human lands is the bridge defense in Kessex Hills – just spam AoEs on the bridge mouth and rack up kills. Other classes place firewalls, mines, turrets, etc. What can a Mesmer place there? Well, nothing! Illusions need a target, and Chaos Storm and the rest have prohibitively long cooldowns.

Second, illusion travel time on shatter activation is unreasonably long. I started a new Engineer recently (wanted a new race), and there’s just no comparison between shatter and grenade. Grenades fly far quicker, and land where you tell them to. You can use them with no enemy present, so they land as a wave spawns, and you tag them all. You can dump a Thumper Turret+Flamer Turret, or slap down a firewall from a Flamethrower. Etc., etc. Either way, mobs spawn, you have 95% chance to tap them all. The sheer volume of loot I get on my Engi, even still at low level, is nowhere even close to what I get on a Mesmer.

And finally, consider fights with a lot of AoE where illusions simply don’t make it to the target. A good example is the Centaur boss who casts large burning circles. If one such circle ends up between him and illusions, none of them will make it to him to shatter – a full DoT cycle is enough to kill a player – a single tick is enough to kill an illusion. Your DPS suffers horrendously, especially since he likes to cast the circles liberally and at the range illusions usually choose. And since illusions don’t obey commands, you can’t move them.

Seriously, if any of you think Mesmer is fine, go try an Engineer and just compare and contrast. Mesmer is absolutely borked. Engineer is not optimal but functions sooooo much better in DEs and there’s literally fields of sparkling corpses at the end of every DE event.

Mesmers are probably second LEAST mobile class in the game.

There’s only 2 skills that allow us to move fast – Focus #4 and Blink. Both have 25-35 sec CD, though can be reduced a bit with traits. Still, fully traited Focus #4 has a maximum 50% uptime.

Mesmers have some very short range blinks, like Sword #3, Staff #2, etc., but those are not mobility per se. They are very short range displacements.

And finally, we have a trait that gives us +3% run speed per illusion active. This means up to +9% movement speed with 3 illusions up. Only works in combat, since illusions die when target dies.

If you want to be totally meticulous, you could throw in Portal. But that’s 60 sec CD. And it moves you between A and B, and doesn’t last long once opened (5 seconds?). Hardly a “mobility” skill.

Compare that to Engineer builds that can have swiftness 100% of the time, or your Signet with +25% passive movement, and I’m sorry but Mesmers don’t come anywhere NEAR that. Kindly stop spreading blatant misinformation.