Guild Wars 2

GuzziHero.5104:

Its like the Golem Uprising of 1284 all over again!

Well, without the screaming and blood anyway.

YET. I swear I saw job-o-tron building a flamethrower.

Thank you for the reply Ill try it out.

Hey there. Im a long time gw2 player looking to make a thief. I made one before and played it to some effectiveness but wasn’t able to get into the playstyle. This time I thought id come here to see if anyone had any advice.

Im looking for primarily a hit and run playstyle. I dont mind going full glass or needing fast reflexes. Im looking specifically for something that can effectively guarantee a kill on a specific target as long as I take the time to keep hitting him over and over.

So something with moderate to high damage and very high mobility capable of breaking through a point defense build given enough time would be ideal.

One idea Ive had on the scouting thing would be an item a scout could get at the quartermaster. Upon use it puts up a dark red circle on the map and makes an announcement stating how many of what server are in the scouts current Line of Sight. At that point whatever force that has been “scouted” receives a 10 minute debuff that cant be removed. Only one debuff from one scout can be active on a target at once. From then on whenever one of those players die the original scout recieves a small xp,gold,and karma reward. Effectively rewarding them for telling a larger force where the enemy was and leading them to the target.

So after completely failing to sleep I went ahead and came back on. I reread the posts from the beginning and I realize they were worded and phrased poorly. I also dismissed other perspectives. I blame lack of sleep on this one as my last few days have been hell. I should not have posted in the state of mind I have been in. Note this is not an excuse but simply a statement of fact.

I still largely disagree with you. But I realize now its simply a matter of perspective. The dangers you refer to in melee simply don’t seem as dangers to me. And the difficulties I see in ranged you don’t see as significant. That isnt meant to be a slight but simply how I see things now that I have calmed down.

I will apologize for my tone in my earlier posts. And ill even delete some of the more aggressive ones. However I believe that the points I made are still infact valid. However I admit they are heavily subject to perspective.

I PERSONALLY have no problems with the melee content in this game. I should not have used that to judge the overall difficulty of mechanics. Again that isn’t a slight. Ive been a gamer since I was 8 so my reactions to certain mechanics are higher than most. My reactions to ranged style of combat however or not nearly as well developed. Its likely that colors my current view of the game. If the majority of people view what im saying as wrong it is very likely that they are in fact the correct view as far as the health and path of the game is concerned.

I will not say I was wrong. Because I do not believe I am. I do however believe I should have phrased what I stated in a better matter to better push forward my perspective. I will endavor to do so in future posts.

For now though im gonna get some sleep. TY those of you that actually attempted to comprehend. And to the person that sent me a mail Im having some trouble replying using this website but ill get with you when I can in game.

hybrid.5027:

Shadelang.3012:

I guess what I am trying to say is. Ranged dps is not easier. Its SAFER. Its Calmer. But it isn’t Easier. A ranged dpser has significantly more variables to worry about.

This has to be a joke. You claim to have been playing since beta but you don’t understand that the range-kite method is essentially playing PvE in easy mode?

More variables? Really? Like what? You have to avoid the occassional attack that comes your way maybe 1/5th of the time. You have to backpedal. Yeah thats totally more variables than what’s happening in an organized group melee’ing a boss.

oh wait its not.

Hybrid. Ive already typed out my response to this exact thing your saying. Feel free to go back and read it. If you still feel differently feel free to maintain that opinion. If you don’t want to see it you wont. its as simple as that. Atleast others here understood what I was actually saying though.

spoj.9672:

Well thats where the disagreement comes. Melee do have to think about a lot more things. They also have to memorise and counter a much larger pool of boss attacks. However the game is so old that this has become second nature for the average player. Which is why the average pug now favours melee over range in the majority of dungeons. However your newer and harder content still shows a tendency of pugs resorting to the safety of range (fractals).

Personally i dont think there is enough counters to range combat. Its way too easy and nullifies far too many mechanics. But at the same time melee is also too easy for most dungeons. But thats old content for you. In fractals the balance is a little better and hopefully that will be improved further in future content.

I agree that fractals are better place to see hte skill involved in both ranged and melee playstyles. I still believe that ranged players when they chose to sperate from the melee group take on an extra risk. As they from then on HAVE to perform to the absolute limit or simply not even be worth having. Thats a whole nother kind of pressure. I doubt melee users really worry about getting kicked unless they die over and over and over again.

I can honestly say I use what I have to perform better than most melee players. And I also know that the reason for that is because I dont have the choice to NOT do the absolute best that the build I use holds.

I also agree that dungeons dont have enough counters for ranged content. With the exception of the Twilight Aetherpath.

Many of the new mobs are very resistant to ranged playstyles. So your getting your wish in future content.

As for melee remembering more boss mechanics. I can honestly say most melee people I knwo that do dungeons regularly dont actually know the individual mechanics of most bosses. They just dodge on muscle memory at this point. They never had to watch and study to figure out which attacks were harmless and which weren’t. They simply react to what happens. I find that most of the bosses that do infact force melee people to learn individual mechanics are the less traveled ones. Im looking at Twilight aetherpath again.

Edit: Learn that trading safety for complexity does not infact make it easier. It makes it calmer. Just because a ranged player isn’t panicking while hes playing doesn’t mean its easy for him. Also. I don’t think the mechanics in this game even remotely qualify as actually difficult as most can be mitigated or completely negated. I dont think ive heard of even a single (unavoidable guaranteed kill) mechanic in this game that you find quite often in other MMOs that usually plague meleers. I find the melee combat in this game is massively easier in comparison to what ive seen elsewhere.

I guess what I am trying to say is. Ranged dps is not easier. Its SAFER. Its Calmer. But it isn’t Easier. A ranged dpser has significantly more variables to worry about. We trade safety for more variables in our performance that we have to worry about ourselves. We don’t get to rely on another person to might us up or revive us when we down. We have to be able to increase our dps on our own in most cases and instead we must NEVER go down. Yes we have safety. But we also have to play our role kitten near PERFECTLY in the wider range of possibility were given.

I hope that makes sense.

spoj.9672:

Shadelang.3012:

spoj.9672:

Shadelang.3012:

I was also refuting a rather ignorant statement that ranged dps is inherently safer. Its safer yes but at a cost that compensates for that safety.

So it is safer. Nice of you to contradict yourself. You are essentially agreeing with us but at the same time disagreeing with us. Which is a little confusing.

I love how you completely ignored the rest of that post. Let me say it again for you.

The “safety” of ranged dps is compensated for. Which incase you can’t figure that out means it is taken out of the final equation in a 2-2=0 kinda way.

The “safety” of ranged dps is its freedom of movement…THATS ALL.

They restricted this by A…Lowering our damage of ranged weapons below that of melee weapons.

B. Creating mechanics specifically to counter ranged.

C. Requiring L.O.S. To hit targets.

D. Creating boss mechanics that target ranged players.

E. Creating boss arenas that limit ranged players.

F. Requiring several ranged weapons to require specific traits and utilities to be viable as weapons or to even be used effectively.

G. Requiring the lower damage ranged damage dealers to forgo tankier armor in favor of dps armor to even be comporable in dps a fully mighted meleer in knights.

H. Limiting the range of boon share abilities so that ranged players AT range will have to move out of htere strike zones in order to obtain said boons.

I. CREATING very specific requirments that must be obtained to come close to a non mighted zerk melee dealers dps.

I hope I dont have to go on.

I did not overlook the rest of the post. Im well aware of the opportunity costs of range vs melee. But that doesnt change the fact that you are argueing with us yet we are simply saying ranged combat is easier. Because it is. Which is also what you are saying. You just seem to be talking down to us like we dont know that there are disadvantages to ranging. We arent disagreeing with that. They are moot points when we are simply discussing difficulty and nullifying of boss attacks.

The way you have phrased your posts over and over again shows me that you feel that ranged dps is gaining safety without facing DIFFERENT problems. Just as any playstyle will face different problems than any other. If I sound like im talking down to you I apologize for that. It may have something to do with being very early in the morning with that. I was never origianlly discussing the ability to nullify a bosses attacks. I was explaining what we give up in return for that. By giving up those things we EARN the ability to nulify those bosses attacks. By having to deal with a set of issues that melee dpsers in this game simply don’t have to think about.

Coulter.2315:

The general tone of this thread seems to be 2 sided.
1) I don’t want to party with people not running most optimal setup.
2) I don’t want to party with those demanding most optimal setup.

Wouldn’t the addition of DPS meters allow both these groups to get what they want more easily? I don’t see why people would argue against it.

A personal dps meter would be fine by me. It might help to get some concrete calculations down.

DaveGan.8065:

spoj.9672:

So it is safer. Nice of you to contradict yourself. You are essentially agreeing with us but at the same time disagreeing with us. Which is a little confusing.

He seems to be considering the cost of looking like the biggest liability to the group when something goes wrong and being the easiest scapegoat.

Also, ranger pets can attack the jade elementals with no issues, so rangers are not completely helpless even without a melee weapon.

Yes. Were helped by our class mechanic that both melee and ranged rangers have equally o.O

spoj.9672:

Shadelang.3012:

I was also refuting a rather ignorant statement that ranged dps is inherently safer. Its safer yes but at a cost that compensates for that safety.

So it is safer. Nice of you to contradict yourself. You are essentially agreeing with us but at the same time disagreeing with us. Which is a little confusing.

I love how you completely ignored the rest of that post. Let me say it again for you.

The “safety” of ranged dps is compensated for. Which incase you can’t figure that out means it is taken out of the final equation in a 2-2=0 kinda way.

The “safety” of ranged dps is its freedom of movement…THATS ALL.

They restricted this by A…Lowering our damage of ranged weapons below that of melee weapons.

B. Creating mechanics specifically to counter ranged.

C. Requiring L.O.S. To hit targets.

D. Creating boss mechanics that target ranged players.

E. Creating boss arenas that limit ranged players.

F. Requiring several ranged weapons to require specific traits and utilities to be viable as weapons or to even be used effectively.

G. Requiring the lower damage ranged damage dealers to forgo tankier armor in favor of dps armor to even be comporable in dps a fully mighted meleer in knights.

H. Limiting the range of boon share abilities so that ranged players AT range will have to move out of htere strike zones in order to obtain said boons.

I. CREATING very specific requirments that must be obtained to come close to a non mighted zerk melee dealers dps.

I hope I dont have to go on.

As I said before. I am fine with and AGREE TO these limitations. I am completely okay with them in every way. I am simply attempting to dispel the false assumption that we are obtaining safety without any significant drawback. Which is very much untrue.

DaveGan.8065:

Shadelang.3012:

“Nope. Only Projectiles” I fealt I had to quote this again it made me laugh pretty hard. Welp that leaves me ONE attack on my longbow. zero attacks on the shortbow and axe.

The marks on necro staff but those aren’t exactly gonna kill all that quickly now are they?

wow man. comeon.

Staff ele says hi. Also, bringing up trash mobs in a ranged vs melee safety debate?

Let me quote you again here because I can’t say it any better.

wow man. comeon.

HAHAHA he brought up the tentacles first man arguably just as much a trash mob as the jade elementals the entire fight is just killing trash to collect crystals a “boss” doesnt even appear so Im not sure how this can even be counted. All I was doing was bringing up the MANDATORY TO KILL mob RIGHT next to them that needed either MELEE or AOE skills to kill them. Not the majority of ranged attacks that are projectiles.

Astralporing.1957:

DaveGan.8065:

I think it says quite a bit when you hear “this isn’t working, let’s range it instead” all the time and never “this isn’t working, let’s melee it”.

I have. For example, the same groups that would consistently wipe on Clockheart when ranging, would have far easier time meleeing it.

Hmm ive personally never had an issue with clockheart in either way but I could see how this has happened. I still cant recall a single time that anyone in my gaming experience has called for ranged outside of a joke ever since the stack method became popular. Usually the group disbands long before that point.

Zui.9245:

Shadelang, no one here is denying that regardless of what you mean by strike zone (Mesmer GS auto attack damage zone, or say Guardian Scepter #2 on stationary targets, whatever), ranged groups are trading DPS for safety. That’s entirely the point. It seems like you’re just emphasizing the point (as what you’re saying is that compared to a situation where the boss is stationary with respect to the ranged player, the ranged player will get a bit less DPS when the boss is moving) while somehow trying to disagree with it.

Of course ranged groups are going to be behind in DPS compared to melee groups, providing the melee groups are actually alive and actively doing DPS to the boss. This is specifically the tradeoff being made by the group. Ranged groups do their DPS much more safely, because they don’t need to engage with anywhere near the amount of mechanics, and generally, when they do have to engage with mechanics it’s often just one or two people in the party at a time who need to engage with them, while everyone else is pretty safe (whereas in a full melee group, everyone is in equal danger).

When people die in melee groups, you also have a proportional DPS loss. People in melee groups, controlling for level of skill and experience, are much more likely to die because they have to engage with the mechanics to a much greater degree. If you take a struggling ranged group and make them melee, they’ll just die very fast. If you take a successful melee group and make them range, they’ll still successfully kill the boss, they’ll just take a lot longer. If you take a nearly successful melee group and make them range, they’re almost certainly going to successfully kill the boss too, just in a longer amount of time.

Range is slower, but it’s also easier. It’s easier for good groups, and it’s easier for bad groups. The reason that the better a group is, the more likely they are to melee, is because if you still have a high probability of success when meleeing and you’re going to save a lot of time, of course you’re going to want to save a lot of time (on average) and melee. Plus, when you’re able to successfully engage with the mechanics, you’re likely to find doing so fun, and thus find playstyles that both speed things up (getting you to the reward faster, which is fun) AND let you engage with the mechanics (also increasing the fun level) to be preferable to ones that slow things down and are comparatively boring.

ZUI I am completely okay with ranged groups being behind melee groups dps. ALL I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO for hte last few hours is attempt to show how that happens. I was also refuting a rather ignorant statement that ranged dps is inherently safer. Its safer yes but at a cost that compensates for that safety. All I did for the last few hours was explain the COST the ranged dpsers play for that. So that atleast some people would understand that its not exactly great for the ranged playstyle either.

I was also explaining that not every situation is gonna be safer for the ranged. As there are severe drawbacks to being a ranged dpser as well.

Edit: The TL;DR for everything ive posted so far. Ranged dpsers have lower dps to COMPENSATE for the safety involved. Taking that safety away in the long run. Longer fights means more things happen. More things happen means higher chance of something BAD happening. And when a ranged person dies. Usually no one revives them in time. Combine that with DOZENS of variables further limiting ranged dps in this game. And you cant HONESTLY say that ranged dpsers have it good in the current setup. Id say there pretty kitten even.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Shadelang.3012:

Kill speed is very relevant to the discussion as it is the only thing valued in the dungeon community today. Slowing down the dungeon run WILL get you kicked today in many groups. As a ranged player this happens to me quite often even in situations where im actively helping my group at every turn. As the ranged player is easiest person to target for a slow kill time.

That’s not true. I recently ran some pug dungeons and I was in groups with horrible overall DPS and no one got kicked. Still most players just run whatever they want.

But overall, the experience wasn’t that bad. About 70% of the groups I pugged in AC, CM and CoF were rather speed clearers (though no focus on specific group composition) and it was a quite good experience.

Hey. I gotta say your right. Many people are tolerant. It still doesnt change that ranged players are more likely to be blamed for mishaps than melees. When I first started my guardian I died quite often. Using a new class took some getting used to and I often avoided stacking becuase I simply wasn’t used to being that close to another person. I didn’t understand at the time how much easier it was to play with 4 other melees right next to you ready to pick me up if I died. I never once got kicked.

On my ranger however I range the molten twins. The reason for this is im quite used to pugs dieing there. I often have a 70% success rate in soloing the rest of hte zerkers health down..rezzing my team mates and salvaging the fight. In almost every one of hte remaining 30% though. Im often kicked from the group and blamed as being hte cause of the wipe due to my (pitiful dps they had to carry) despite being the last one alive.

DaveGan.8065:

Shadelang.3012:

Ill also remind you that hte jade elementals are IMMUNE TO ANY AND ALL FORM OF RANGED ATTACKS WHATSOEVER. Meaning that ranged playstyles SIMPLY CANNOT COMPLETE THAT FIGHT without using melee.

Nope. Only projectiles.

“Nope. Only Projectiles” I fealt I had to quote this again it made me laugh pretty hard. Welp that leaves me ONE attack on my longbow. zero attacks on the shortbow and axe.

The marks on necro staff but those aren’t exactly gonna kill all that quickly now are they?

wow man. comeon.

Zui.9245:

Shadelang.3012:

The ONLY time ranged is prefered in this game by the majority of players is in fact during “glitch” spot encounters.

Dredge Powersuit? Rampaging Ice Elemental? Both Archdiviner fights? Jade Maw (tentacles)?

To even suggest that the first two can be meleed in a PUG group will either get people to suggest that you’re an idiot, that melee isn’t a thing for those bosses, immediately kicked from the group, or a group that tries it, wipes almost immediately, and concludes it melee is virtually impossible to pull off.

Oh, and note how none of them have any “glitch” spots.

Zui you are speaking of fractal bosses. Something I have already said before I hold seperate from dungeons. As many fractal’s are designed to be just as punishing to melee as they are to ranged. Some (specifically the ones you mentioned) are designed to be VERY punishing to zerker melees. However as for jade maw. I still see far more melee people hitting those tentacles than I do ranged. As there attacks are slow and easily avoidable. So I wouldnt even count them as a significant risk. Ill also remind you that hte jade elementals are IMMUNE TO ANY AND ALL FORM OF RANGED ATTACKS WHATSOEVER. Meaning that ranged playstyles SIMPLY CANNOT COMPLETE THAT FIGHT without using melee.

spoj.9672:

Shadelang.3012:

@ Zui. YES I already stated that being at ranged WILL protect you from many boss mechanics. Ive ALSO stated the MANY drawbacks to a full ranged group. You can keep posting all day long how many mechanics 5 range groups avoid. That does NOTHING to deny that ranged dpsers CANNOT maintaint here strike zones except in specific circumstances. One of which is a boss that is being held completely still and facing in specific directions…next to other targets….in certain proximity to and away from..etc..etc…etc..etc..

There are only 3 weapons with such specific strike zones. Unless im forgetting one. They are mesmer greatsword, ranger longbow and ranger shortbow. Both mes gs and ranger lb are pretty easy to maintain max dps. The only times that would be hard is if they had aggro. But thats unlikely if they are staying at max range to begin with. Besides its only the auto attacks which are effected. And the auto attacks of those weapons arent exactly the best source of damage on those weapons.

Ranger longbow. Ranger Shortbow. And Mesmer greatsword are the only ones with OBVIOUS strike zones. Each other ranged DPS primary weapon has other requirments.

A rangers Axe MH must have a target to bounce off of to achieve optimal dps. A warrior rifle MUST be able to channel killshot requiring the target to be and stay in range as well as the warrior being unmoving and undodging. This is risky. Mesmer weapons often rely on phantasms. These can and often are very quickly killed by boss cleave. Even the stray attacks the closer ranged are kiting will take them out. Not to mention stray aoes strewn across the battlefield. Engi rifle and grenades require close proximity. Necro axe has a very short range for a ranged weapon. Necro staff is a control weapon far more than it is a dps weapon. Nearly all weapon ahve similar situational requirements. My use of the term strike zone is more fluid than a set zone to attack. But more a zone of prerequisites that MUST be met.

spoj.9672:

@shadelang

When did you start playing? Because ranging was the go to tactic for pugs for about a year. Its only more recently that even casual pugs have adopted meta strategies and learnt to melee most encounters. We used to get kicked for meleeing lupi because the norm in pugs was to range and kite him around the room.

Kill speed is irrelevant in this discussion as the whole arguement of range vs melee is that melee is more dps but harder. And range is simply easier seeing as it nullifies over 50% of attacks. x)

Spoj I started playing during the beggining of the open beta.

During hte early stage of hte game range was the go to method because people hadn’t discovered the melee meta builds quite yet. Nor was knowledge of proper field blasting…mightsharing…and boonswapping common yet. In other words. People weren’t aware that there was an easier method provided by the game yet that simply took some getting used to. NOW however its second nature to nearly every mildly experienced dungeon runner. Stacking started when players realized there were locations that took large amounts of risk out of the engagement. I already posted earlier in the thread about how the strenghts given to full melee groups far outweigh the risks.

Kill speed is very relevant to the discussion as it is the only thing valued in the dungeon community today. Slowing down the dungeon run WILL get you kicked today in many groups. As a ranged player this happens to me quite often even in situations where im actively helping my group at every turn. As the ranged player is easiest person to target for a slow kill time.

As I said earlier in the thread. The Pros of melee stacking far outweigh the cons…easily so in fact. The simple ability of being able to instantly revive a downed is a VERY good reason to focus on melee. The condencing of boss aoes is another one. But thats something I have already stated and have no desire to type all over again.

@ Zui. YES I already stated that being at ranged WILL protect you from many boss mechanics. Ive ALSO stated the MANY drawbacks to a full ranged group. You can keep posting all day long how many mechanics 5 range groups avoid. That does NOTHING to deny that ranged dpsers CANNOT maintaint here strike zones except in specific circumstances. One of which is a boss that is being held completely still and facing in specific directions…next to other targets….in certain proximity to and away from..etc..etc…etc..etc..

Edit :The longer there out of theres trike zones. The lower there dps falls. The more dps they lose hte longer hte fight lasts. The longer the fight lasts the more likely that one of the attacks they DO get affected by wacks them or that hte boss breaks free of CC long enough to kill one of them creating MORE dps loss. And the further and further they fall behind there melee counterparts.

spoj.9672:

Shadelang.3012:

Wethospu.6437:

With five equally bad melee players, boss would wipe them in 10 seconds which would be a pretty massive dps loss.

Im sorry but it seems like you gave up here. When did hte conversation become about melee players. What do you meen by equally bad. Are you saying all five melee players are bad? 5 of ANY bad player will die very quickly. Be they melee or ranged so this sentence doesnt really have any weight to it. It feels like you simply gave up on refuting me and just said the first thing that came to your mind.

Besides. A playstyle simply cannot be judged by the worst among its group. Merely the best. And its a fact that the 5 best melee players in a group together WILL out perform the 5 best ranged players in this game. Simply due to the shear number of things stacked against ranged players.

To expand. Lets assume the 5 ranged players WERE bad. The shortbow ranger with agro will die first. Then the other shortbow ranger will die very quickly after. Becuase they cant handle kiting effectively and make simple mistakes like dodging to create distance leaving htem nothing to dodge an aoe with. The three longbow rangers will die within the next minute due to similar mistakes.

Infact assuming that there actual BAD players then even if they start in there ideal areas they will probably lose one of hte longbow rangers to the first aoe. Just to how squishy a longbow ranger HAS to be.

5 bad melee players would wipe fast. 5 bad ranged players would most likely still be able to succeed. Or at the very least last considerably longer. I think you are overestimating the danger of bosses against ranged players.

Most boss attacks are not ranged or they are easily side stepped/avoided at range. Kiting is incredibly easy. The only boss that is hard to kite is mossman and thats only really when he has loads of wolf adds chasing you at the same time. I cant think of any others that stand out. Especially as many others are quite low on threat to melee players (in terms of damage per hit or frequency of attacks). So they would be even easier while kiting.

Think of it this way. Even with bad kiting you are going to avoid a large number of attacks or spread out the time between when you might get hit. With this it becomes considerably easier to manage endurance or sustain yourself. You can see proof of this when you see some melee boss solos involve a lot of semi kiting to succeed.

Spoj. What the discussion was about though was the potential fully skilled ranged combatants in comparison to fully skilled melee combatants in a boss fight. YES if there are 5 bad melees they will die faster. But that is simply due to proximity. Nothing else. In the scenario I put for the shortbow rangers will likely die very quickly if tehy attempt to play optimally without the skill to do so. The longbow rangers have the highest chance of survival. Most likely thought it will take them MUCH longer to complete the fight. As it will be 100% impossible for them to enter there strike zone they WILL suffer from reduced damage for the entire duration of the remaining fight. Meaning more time for them to kitten up get backed into a corner or run out of dodges and die.

Still though. As I said before we cannot judge a playstyle on the worst of its line but along the highest potential of its line. its here where ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the time in 99.9999% of situations 5 melee groups WILL have an advantage over 5 ranged groups.

Edit; and thats not even mentioning hte MASSIVE dps loss from there pets all being dead when the pet turned around and quickly kills them. To use tankier pets OR to bring utilities that improve there survival would simply reduce there damage even further

DaveGan. Ill ignore the glitch spot thing for now because its largely a dishonest playstyle and one I personally dont approve of in any game for any reason.

Lets start with what you said first. You here more “This isn’t working,lets range it instead” comments partly becuase the vast majority of groups use melee as there first go to ability. This primarily happens to inexperienced full zerk groups where they havn’t learned the boss mechanics yet. This falls into my “don’t judge a playstyle by the worst” category. However ill go along with it for the sake of argument.

Ranged is the second option for the vast majority of boss fighters in this game. And I can honestly say I have NEVER heard a group say “lets range it”. I more often here one warrior cussing out another how he wasn’t stacked tight enough. The ONLY time ranged is prefered in this game by the majority of players is in fact during “glitch” spot encounters. (Which as I said. Are against the game rules…removed from the game regularly…and are rather disgusting to use. A player using them has completely given up on fighting the boss for one reason or another and simply cares only for a fake reward rather than the enjoyment of actually fighting something and learning how to beat it. Id even go so far as to say that those that use these methods regularly aren’t even gamers.)

Entertaining moments aside. This leaves us with immobilize and cripple and ill even throw in chill.

Nearly all bosses are resistant to CCs. Most of extremely reduced durations for slowing CCs. Nearly all bosses have higher than average movement speed. And some bosses are immune to certain conditions entirely.

So what?

Cripple usually brings most bosses to just below average run speed. Meaning its enough for a melee to temporarily get away from a boss. HOWEVER. Many bosses also have ranged attacks. In a 5 ranged party. These will be used quite often. often directly on there internal cooldowns. these attacks often hit significantly harder than melee attacks or have a built in CC. Slowing down the player A player with cripple is usually mUCH slower than a boss with cripple. Meaning that the boss will quickly be on him and will likely kill him assuming the ranged player has also been dodging ambient attacks as well.

Attacks that apply cripple also often have less than stellar damage. Further reducing dps making the ranged player more inneficient.

Immobilize. Immobilize is very difficult to keep on a boss. Its duration is MASSIVELY reduced. Its also very difficult to find on a ranged weapon. I infanct believe that engineer rifle and warrior longbow are the only instances of such. Note that niether has access to cripple. The only cc that doesnt suffer from reduced effectiveness on a boss.

ALSO. The engineer rifle requires you to be close to the target to make proper use of rifle 3 and rifle 5. its primary burst skills.

And warrior longbow isn’’t designed to act as a primary weapon. And ITS effective range is highly decided by the ability to land its arcing shot. Which relies on holding a target in an area long enough for it to hit. OR being close to the target.

Id say that in the above situations these two dont truly qualify as ranged weapons. They certainly aren’t often used as such in game.

But what about chill? Thats even rarer from a ranged players perspective. Only necros and engis have easy access to chill without heavy investment. This is in the form of hte engineer grenade kit and necro staff 3. Necro DS2 does not qualify as it quickly places you in melee range.

Engineer grenade kit ALSO relies on you being close to teh target to properly land each individual nade on it. Something difficult to do if your close enough to grab aggro. The boss will likey be attacking you while your throwing nades.

Necro staff Id also say will never qualify as a dps weapon….ever….

Namely. The only way for a ranged player to EVER utilize what your talking about in a ranged playstyle. Will require significant investment in the form of utility skills (Meaning your losing a damage utility further weakening you behind the melee meta.) A different sigil (doing the same) Or even different traits (the exact same problem)

Yes it can be done. But it FURTHER puts you behind the melee groups. Weve established a SKILLED ranged group can kill nearly any boss if there careful even the ones designed to hamper them. But the only way to do it safely is to do many things that push them further and further away from there melee relatives.

Moving out of there strike zone for safety…to CC…to setup for there damaging skills….to recover from being damaged… All further reduce there damage in comparison to melees. Which is why a melee is STILL 100% necessary for the ranged playstyle to be at its most effective. And even then the meleers will outperform them in situations of high skill.

Wethospu.6437:

With five equally bad melee players, boss would wipe them in 10 seconds which would be a pretty massive dps loss.

Im sorry but it seems like you gave up here. When did hte conversation become about melee players. What do you meen by equally bad. Are you saying all five melee players are bad? 5 of ANY bad player will die very quickly. Be they melee or ranged so this sentence doesnt really have any weight to it. It feels like you simply gave up on refuting me and just said the first thing that came to your mind.

Besides. A playstyle simply cannot be judged by the worst among its group. Merely the best. And its a fact that the 5 best melee players in a group together WILL out perform the 5 best ranged players in this game. Simply due to the shear number of things stacked against ranged players.

To expand. Lets assume the 5 ranged players WERE bad. The shortbow ranger with agro will die first. Then the other shortbow ranger will die very quickly after. Becuase they cant handle kiting effectively and make simple mistakes like dodging to create distance leaving htem nothing to dodge an aoe with. The three longbow rangers will die within the next minute due to similar mistakes.

Infact assuming that there actual BAD players then even if they start in there ideal areas they will probably lose one of hte longbow rangers to the first aoe. Just to how squishy a longbow ranger HAS to be.

Wethospu.6437:

With 5 ranged players if someone has the aggro everyone else is safe. That already nullifies mechanics for 80% of the group.

I feel like your deliberately choosing to ignore the whole strike zone thing but okay. Here we go ill try to explain it AGAIN…

Say I have 3 longbow rangers and two shortbow rangers. This is my group of 5 Assumign tehy were attempting to duplicate the dps of a 5 man melee group they would be forced to take 5 bird or feline pets.

Now boss agro in GW2 is based off of two things primarily. Stats and proximity. With the exception of bosses that like to lock onto a single player (lupicus) Most bosses will chase down players in effective range. This effective range changes depending on what debuffs they have on them. A boss with cripple may go after a closer target than when the cripple wears off.

Now with 5 rangers odds are cripple will be on permanently. Assuming the three power rangers are in zerkers and the two shortbow rangers are in sinister (since they and the pets iwll be hte only applications of bleed they should still make there condis worth ticking)

This meens that the boss will decide to go after a closer target that fits its criteria. Next is the stats. Bosses naturaly tend to gravitate towards targets with high toughness and then high vitality. In this scenario the rangers even in zerk will have more toughness AND vitality than there pets. Guaranteeing that the boss will chase after the shortbow rangers.

Immediatly any hope to match a melee groups damage dissapears. The two shortbow rangers HAVE to be behind the target for there shortbow one to apply bleed. AND they have to be fairly close to the target so they can get the boss with all 5 shots of the poison volley skill. So now there in a very dangerous position. They have agro..There close to the boss..and there losing dps VERY rapidly. The shortbow ranger with agro may choose to swap to a sword dagger setup to oftank the boss for the other. But this is a 5 ranged scenario so well ignore that possibility for now.

One shortbow ranger begins to kite the boss. The other begins to move behind him. The first ranger is losing dps shooting into the bosses front. The other lost dps by being forced to move around him but is now adjusting.

The three power rangers might be in trouble though. There constantly staggering in attemtping to stay in there 150 range “sweetspot” for there damage. Past the range of there knockback shot. But not so far away there out of range of there LRS. This is costing htem damage and positioning. Now that one shortbow ranger is forcing the entire group to move with him as he attempts to kite a boss that is naturally faster than him. It gets even worse when he hits the wall of the arena and must move to the side. FURTHER reducing the other shortbow rangers dps as the boss turns. And forcing the longbow rangers to change direction. this is dangerous in fights where bosses produce area of effects that players HAVE to avoid. Further reducing ranged damage dealers dps as tehy leave there strike zones.

using this method. Yes a ranged group skilled enough with kiting and positioning may get by without a single down just as many melee groups do. HOWEVER. Itl be at a MASSIVELY slower pace. Increasing the likelyhood that something will happen to the shortbow ranger kiting. And in this situation there is almost no chance the others will be able to rez him.

Now if a ranger decided to bring a tank pet instead. That pet could hold hte boss fairly still. HOWEVER AGAIN were faced with a massive dps loss. And most pets cant take boss level damage for long. Even bears unless you take utility slots to improve htere survivability. which is yet MORE dps loss.

Get the picture? In order for a ranged player to come even REMOTELY close to a melee dpsers effectiveness in this game. They HAVE to maintain there strike zone 100% of the fight. Whihc REQUIRES a melee player.

Wethospu.6437:

I would estimate that a high range nullifies at least 50% of enemy attacks, perhaps even 75%. Add some movement and that number rises to 75% – 90%.

That’s not something I would call “a few”.

They only nulify attacks if someone else has agro. Meaning there survival is dependent on the melee characters. You will have a hard time doing 5 ranged like we currently have 5 melee. Largely because MOST bosses movement speeds are higher htan a players. Also remember what I said. They have to go as squishy as even remotely possible. Often forgoing most defensive utilities in favor of ones to boost there damage further.

So when they DO get hit. Its gonna be kitten my melee characters I dont believe I have ever truly been one shot. But on a ranged character I can honestly say I have. And when a ranged player goes down on say….subject alpha. Its extremely unlikely that someone will get to them before the next dragons tooth takes them out.

Edit: And also remember what I said about strike zones. Most weapons wont be able to stay at high range…ever… Only the ranger longbow and greatsword mesmer benefit from high range. Each ranged weapon HAS to stay in its strike zone in order to be competitive. There is no choice.

Wethospu.6437:

Ashen.2907:

Bernie.8674:

My intent was closer to this:

• Zerkers kill some bosses before their abilities can trigger
• Stackers nullify some bosses’ game mechanics

Part of the misunderstanding might be that your intent was, “some bosses’ game mechanics,” but you said, “all bosses.”
—

I’m pretty sure ranging nullifies more mechanics than stacking.

Stepping in for a second here again.

Ranged dps does infact nuliffy a few boss mechanics. But many bosses have mechanics that punish ranged dspers. And the game punsihes ranged dps on its own as well.

Ranged dps by the nature of its balancing does less dps on its own than melee in 99% of situations. This has to do with it being balanced due to risk/reward calculations on A nets part.

A couple ranged weapons (Ranger longbow and mesmer greatsword) lose damage the closer they are to the target. Limiting there effective combat area greatly. Thisl tie in later.

Weapons such as the engineer rifle and grenade kit only reach there true effectiveness at close range. or in the case of grenade kits against a very large number of enemies. This limits there effective combat range in the opposite direction.

These weapons as well as the ranger shortbow,axe MH,Axe OH. Warrior Rifle and others all have “strike zones” similar in the case of melee units but a ranged weapons strike zones are generally much more specific. The ranger shortbow can only obtain max dps when behind a target. The ranger longbow only when the target is far away. The axe only when it can bounce between one target to a second and back to the first while still being in nearly melee range for splitblade attack.

This is all not taking into account. Constant monitoring of distance…High likelyhood of attracting adds… Distance from party members…etc…

Ranged players often have to go as glass as possible to even come close to a melee dpsers setup in both there traits and gear and still come up short because of the nature of boon sharing and the limited range of such abilities. Which further limits a ranged players effective strike zone. If they cant self might…there probably SOL.

These are just some of the games natural ways of nuetralizing the inherent strength of ranged playstyles in order to keep them under control.

Then we go into boss specific ones. Everyone remembers the spider queen. It used to be she only shot her heavy hitting poison cloud at ranged players. Players beyond x range. She was altered due to abuse of the stack method negating this mechanic. But her original mechanic still applies. Also her arena isnt really large enough to accommodate free movement of the Ranger Longbow and Mesmer Greatsword.

Some bosses will fixate on a specific target for long periods of time. Lupicus for example is a good example of this. Often chasing down a specific player during his life drain phase. This is alternatingly terrifying and annoying for ranged players. As he chases down a specific player the ranged players effective strike zone moves. Meaning hte player has to move very rapidly to deal with it. As ranged weapons only rarely have gap closers. They either have to use a utility to increase there speed to stay in there ideal range. Or risk losing damage even further behind hte more mobile melee weapons.

Other bosses such as hte charr boss in the aetherpath of TA will negate ranged combat almost entirely. Putting up a reflective wall at the end of his spin around him. cages players inside with him and having any outside attacks nulified. Again. Limiting or even destroying a ranged weapons effective strike zone. Im sure I dont need to remind any fractal runners of hte molten twins. When the beserker dies first his allie puts up a cage effect. Punishing any that leave. This takes away the ONE advantage that ranged players DO have….Freedom of movement and direction. The ability to easily move out of the line of fire.

The reason why ranged players are ok with this is becuase we can have two weapons. Either taking a melee weapon for when our strike zone is destroyed. Or ad ifferent weapon with a different strike zone.

TlDR; Yes ranged combat nullifies a FEW mechanics. But they have alot of there own problems to deal with that more than compensate for that bonus.

Its one of the most amusing aspects of one of the weakest builds in the game. The more you have the stronger each individual necro becomes.

MM mancers can infact steamroll most bosses by abusing hte aoe cap. However this only works if you have 4-5 of them. When you DO have that many…its pretty kittening funny watching a boss drown in permanent cripple/immobilize as well as liberal applications of poison and weakness.

Id have to agree with softspoken. Id see Statics being more in the area of blood magic. Dyanmics being more summoning line and condi lines. With synergetics being the DS necros. Just me.

Yes. The current implimentation of guard is….anything but actually guarding. Honestly I feel it should give protection to a pet as longa sthere in the target area. Restrict there movement to the target area (with a reset range of like…4k-5k range) and stealth the pet whenever htere not in combat. THEN id actually use hte kitten shout in pvp to watch points for thieves. would be useful starting a fight against a thief with a 6k wolf knockdown crit.

Edit;I really…REALLY…hope a dev sees this.

What im trying to figure out is what anything he said had to do with the zerk meta or a dps meter. He solod a fractal. Invited random people in and they kicked him out. Yeah im flat out sure there kittens. But theres kittens in EVERY single aspect of the game. You opened yourself up to that when you invited random people in. I respect you for trying to do a good thing for four other players though. That I one hundred percent can get behind. But at the same time when I try to help out people in game I KNOW theres a good chance atleast one of them is gonna be a kittenbag. In this case it sounds like atleast 2 of them were.

I’m sorry this happened to you. And I have no problem with you not inviting random people again because of this. its your choice. But youl have to explain what that story had to do with either of the topics. (In this case perferably the original topic of a dps meter. Which wouldn’t have helped you at all in that case)

“Note. I choose to assume what he said is true simply because discussion here relies on it. I also havn’t encountered players that stupid before but then I havnt met every single individual in the game and I can’t judge the likelyhood of this scenario except on my own circumstances which would be only a partially accurate response from a single viewpoint”

Engineer has more potential through the sheer number of combinations you can make between its skills. One skill rolls into another which rolls into 3 others.

Warrior also does this but there attack patterns tend to be a bit more linear. Making them more predictable in the field. However in large combat warriors can handle being swarmed a bit better. On my engi if I get singeled out in a zerg by 3-4 enemies ill usually go down. On my warrior I can generally get away with fighting htem until there attention shifts back to another target.

My engi however can get away from them by quite a number of different combos. It all depends on whats being thrown at me att.

Thats just my experience though.

I uh….I think you won…

DaveGan.8065:

Shadelang.3012:

I wish the dungeons outside of fractals also forced the players to COPE with mechanics instead of finding ways of bypassing them.

You’d have a dead dungeon community if you extended that sort of difficulty outside Fractals and Arah.

Things like AC and CoF are to dungeons what the Shatterer and Fire Elemental are to world bosses. Not everything has to be like Fractals and Tequatl, and a variety of difficulty is not bad for the game.

I do completely agree that “zerker meta” is run in low level dungeons for ease as much as for speed. But this does not extend to higher level encounters like Arah and Fractals, where it takes considerably more experience/practice/skill to maintain HP and DPS meleeing in glass gear (although it is possible to do so in virtually every encounter, and definitely optimal for any player who is able to)

As I said. I hold fractals to be seperate from dungeons. And even arah has methods of bypassing the more dangerous mechanics and even SKIPPING entire an entire boss on one of htose paths because hes simply not worth the trouble to kill. These are things that nearly EVERY arah run does as a normal part of the run.

I agree that bringing dungeons up to fractal level would kill the dungeon community. The current dungeon runners simply aren’t in the right mindset for it. Again. As I said before. It isn’t the use of zerk as the primary gear set that bothers me. When the entire class trinity was combined into a single character it was guaranteed to happen. What bothers me is overriding opinion that zerk players are automatically more skilled or active players than non zerk players. When zerk is chosen as the meta for the sole reason that its the easiest way to do a dungeon run.

Skill isn’t really a factor here. As people with very low skill can zerk run most dungeon paths and bosses. Im absolutely certain there are high skill zerk runners. The speed runners are some of those. The ACTUAL speed runners that seek to break there own and other records. However for the average zerk-meta pug. A person whos played the game for less than a month is just as good as a person whos been playing and experimenting from the release date. Simply because there isn’t any real way for them to PROVE there skill when in these specific groups where everyone simply does the same thing as everyone else becuase..again. its the EASIEST route.

If someone wants to impress me outside of setting a new record. Id suggest them fighting every boss in the game in apothecary gear using a power build. There whole team. THEN id be impressed. Because they start with kittenty tools and STILL accomplish there goal with it.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Astralporing.1957:

DaveGan.8065:

I’m still waiting for an explanation of how to ez-mode Archdiviner in Fractal 37/49/50 with a full zerker melee/meta group.

Well, wearing zerkers does not make the encounter any more dangerous at those levels, and it definitely lasts way shorter than in, say, Nomads. Sounds like a lower difficulty level to me.

What one shots you in zerker in higher level fractals does not one shot you in defensive gear. At least not at level 50. Also, for a better example, see the lupicus solo in cleric’s that was listed earlier. He facetanked the whole fight.

This I have to give to Nev in part. Fractals are the only place infact where you can get away with using non zerker armor. Becuase its one of the only areas where taking damage is kitten near guaranteed. At that point at the higher levels it becomes a case of (Do what you need to to stay alive and kill the kitten) Which is a big part of why I separate high frac runners and other dungeon runners. Although the general consensus in fractals is STILL (go as glass as you can). In this case though im fine with it with the way fractal fights are designed. There mechanics are upfront. Its difficult for players to negate or avoid them and takes the choice of negating part of the fight away from them. My only issue is that the mechanics are not terribly varied once you have the Proper A.R. and it loses alot of the challenge.

Some of my favorite bosses are the fractal molten twins. You can stack on the beggining of that fight with the right comp. But theres a very good chance of something not going quite right on that fight. So spreading out is still the better option there. And stacking doesnt allow you to burn through the fight completely unless you bring a TONNNN of reflects/absorbs.

However on the cleric lupicus thing. What you have there is the other extreme. Its also something alot of people love to post thinking it proves that the meta-zerk=pro player mentality is right when really there just pointing at the exact opposite (which means its really the same thing but in a different configuration…. Which isn’t the goal of 99.9999999% of the playerbase that dislikes the current stack/zerk meta in dungeons. There looking for a middle ground between the two. If the meta was “5 Full Cleric guardian ping or kick” you can bet your kitten id be here talking kitten about that too.

Edit: @ Dave I might add that five bloodshroud necros turn the arch diviner fight even at lvl 50 into a cakewalk. I meen it makes the fight absolutely pathetically easy. I did it as a joke one day and omfg we didn’t realize how OP that setup was for that one specific fight.

DaveGan.8065:

Shadelang.3012:

In this case zerk puts every single competitor right on the hole. At this point it doesnt matter if its tiger woods or a complete amateur almost anyone can make it.

I’m still waiting for an explanation of how to ez-mode Archdiviner in Fractal 37/49/50 with a full zerker melee/meta group.

It seems like I’m doing it wrong, because I actually have to kite a bit, watch his tells, and even react to those tells! But you seem to know some way to trivialize this encounter so that I win the moment I put on glass cannon gear!

Please share so I can share this newfound discovery with my friends and whoever I group with.

Dave. I didnt respond because the zerk meta which were discussing exists primarily in Dungeons. In fractals I often see a wider range of builds and playstyles because there knowledge of positioning and mechanics is more important than gear choice. And many of the fights are designed in ways that punish stacking specifically. But if you want ot use fractals specifically.

Remember the mossman glitch? Where you dragged him into the water and were able to actively able to stack in a place where you could shoot him without being attacked by him due to a fault in his programming?

To be clear. The reason I havnt brought up fractals is for the same reason I havn’t brought up actual speed runners. (the ones progressively working towards shorter and shorter times on dungeon completions)

Because there separate situations. A speed group =/= a meta-zerk only group. Most speed runners I know use personal builds tailored specifically to fill a gap in there groups comp. While they use zerk gear primarily. They also find ways to make it through using far more individual effort than the average zerk group. I respect speed runners in nearly any game. Seeing as I was one when I was in WoW for the majority of my teenage life.

Fractal runners are also a different group. As the base design of the encounters themselves take alot of choice out of the players hands. Forcing the players to cope and deal with the bosses dangerous mechanics upfront.

I wish the dungeons outside of fractals also forced the players to COPE with mechanics instead of finding ways of bypassing them. HOWEVER I still don’t mind when people choose to cheese through a dungeon fight. As I said before its when people claim that there inherintly better than another player simply because they hold to the zerk meta. When the zerk meta is simply the most cost effective way to bypass dungeon content and not by its nature the most skillful.

It would actually be a pretty epic fight. Imagine fighting a plant monster the size of the black citadel.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Shadelang.3012:

@Nevets If you read what I posted youd see I know why people stack. To share boons such as might and fury to burn through the boss faster lowering the risk of the encounter.

Incidental reasons that stack lovers like to cling to :The ability to instantly rez a downed player. Lowering the risk of the encounter

The ability to blast relevant fields such as water. Lowering the risk of the encounter.

The ability to mitigate the effects of bosses ccs. Lowering hte risk of the encounter

The ability to combine telegraphed player targeted aoes. Lowering the risk of the encounter as long as someone remembers where there dodge button is.

These are all intelligent decisions. I have no problem with calling htem that. What I have a problem with is when people claim this is the most skillful mode of play. And that anyone who doesn’t do it this way is inherently bad.

It is not the most skillful mode of play. Its the most effective. There is a significant difference between the two.

This is a better answer. Lots of people think enemies don’t attack you in a stack. You hinted at the reason why with the spider queen earlier. The reality is the vast majority of the time enemies will still attack your stack.

This is the most effective way to play, and it’s far less to do with dungeon design than design of boons, buffs, aoe etc. So things like changing the way the spider queen works don’t really alleviate the issue. What would alleviate “stacking” would be to redefine how aoe boons, buffs, attacks work.

Regarding your comment about skillful vs. effective play: Who would have an easier time on a golf course, Tiger Woods or some random teenager? Tiger. Because he plays the game better. He’s more skilled and thus more effective. You can of course challenge yourself by going naked, not stacking, not dodging, role play walking, whatever. Just as Tiger Woods could golf with bamboo rods or hockey sticks. That doesn’t make him more skilled or effective. I don’t know what that makes him actually… but those two words aren’t appropriate I don’t think.

Your comparison to tiger woods gave me food for thought. this is the conclusion I came to. If every dungeon is a golf course. Then different gear choices are different starting points. Something youl never see in a gold competition. Different gear gives you different capabilities. Skill is what you do with that capability.

In this case zerk puts every single competitor right on the hole. At this point it doesnt matter if its tiger woods or a complete amateur almost anyone can make it.

Lifestealer.4910:

hey guiz, non-zerk build is such hard mang, just watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

go to 30 minute to see the true beauty and mad skeelz of the non-zerk.

Also its hilarious that people think zerk and stack are the same thing, they are not. A full nomad party can stack and do the kitten you said they would do and still be just as effective, just slower.

Another thing is real speedrun group rarely stacks, in fact only the ill-informed pugs continue to stack in places that doesn’t need to be stacked.

Lifestealer I actually agree with you. The majority of actualy speedrun groups ive taken place in only stacked momentarily before each boss for boon stacking. But then. The whole idea behind a speed run for a dungeon is that the most efficient method of doing the dungeon has already been found. I.E. People no longer see it as an accomplishment and only as a method of making gold. A speed run attempts to shorten the minimum completion time by a bit more.

The vast majority of “meta zerk” groups ive been in however. Seem terrified to leave a corner.

@Nevets If you read what I posted youd see I know why people stack. To share boons such as might and fury to burn through the boss faster lowering the risk of the encounter.

Incidental reasons that stack lovers like to cling to :The ability to instantly rez a downed player. Lowering the risk of the encounter

The ability to blast relevant fields such as water. Lowering the risk of the encounter.

The ability to mitigate the effects of bosses ccs. Lowering hte risk of the encounter

The ability to combine telegraphed player targeted aoes. Lowering the risk of the encounter as long as someone remembers where there dodge button is.

These are all intelligent decisions. I have no problem with calling htem that. What I have a problem with is when people claim this is the most skillful mode of play. And that anyone who doesn’t do it this way is inherently bad.

It is not the most skillful mode of play. Its the most effective. There is a significant difference between the two.

[/quote]

It’s ok that you’re new. Everyone is at some point. I’d just advise being knowledgeable about what you’re talking about before you insult lots of people with what is nothing more than spluttering nonsense.[/quote]

@ Nevits

Thank you for showing you have no idea what your talking about. I was an avid player of gw1. And have been playing gw2 since the first day it was released. And even took part in the beta. Sadly I know all too well what im talking about.

Namely when the game first came out people hadn’t discovered the stack locations or the zerker meta yet. They weren’t aware that using these would slice through nearly every fight in the game (there are SOME that were designed seemingly to prevent stacking…cudos to anet for these becuase there the fights where people are actually active)

What this meant is that people entered dungeons in the gear of there choice and the playstyle of there choice and fought bosses. They were forced to actually learn the boss mechanics where as players today don’t even know what most of the encounters in COF actually do. (With the exception of one where your FORCED to utuilize the boss mechanic)

In other words. The people playing the non-meta builds actually had to work harder and with more situational awareness than any meta zerk group. They learned what attacks could be soaked and what attacks could be mitigated. What needed to be blocked and reflected and what could be avoided.

All this eventually led to people experimenting with difference places to fight the boss. And they realized that certain bosses simply wont use there most dangerous mechanics if the entire group is in a certain location (Spider Queen is a big example of this before it was changed)

Once this was realized it didn’t take long before they realized they could make the fight even EASIER by maxing there dps at close range through boons so that they could burn through a boss before they ran out of active defense which they could get away with now that positioning and avoiding boss cc skills was no longer an issue. Anything that did get through there active defense could be dodged into a corner. (Because somehow rolling in a corners gonna save you from the giant fiery spike of death hanging over your head…much less five of them)

Maybe its you that should learn what your talking about before commenting. The meta wasn’t made to make the game more interesting or more fun. It was made because its the easiest way to make it through a dungeon in the fastest time. Thats all it is. And all it ever was. A way of making the game require LESS skill not more.

Honestly I didn’t know that they COULD go this way. But I personally have no issue with it. I’ve had more interesting matches now than I have in a long time. Id prefer it stay this way if thats what it takes.

Lifestealer.4910:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The zerk speed clearers don’t want to play with those people, and that’s fine, but stop ridiculing them for being different. You don’t know a kitten thing about them!

I know that their ceiling is double digit percentage points lower than that of a zerker.

While most of us are aware of the imperfect correlation between “potential” and “reality”, the double digit percentage ceiling gap is indeed a reality and means a non-zerker has to play that much better to even catch up.

Another brutally honest truth: playing zerker/non-zerker is a choice (as opposed to a skill requirement), and choices have consequences. It’s up to you whether you take “sub-optimal” (in the context of ceiling/potential) as objective truth or subjective ridicule.

PS: You’ll only ever hear this word from me if you try to offer suboptimal advice to someone asking for help in map chat. But, if you do talk about how your tanking/healing/roleplaying setup is somehow optimal, you will no longer be entitled to my silence.

Never claimed to be optimal. Just different, which is a perfectly valid choice to make.

My point still stands. Just because they opt to run Valk over Zerk (for example) doesn’t make them a “bad” or skill-less players. Yes, they do less damage. Yes, they are not running the most efficient, face roll armor available. That still does not make them wrong. It does not make them bad ( although there are those that legitimately are). Which was the whole topic of the original conversation.

Not whether they were right or wrong for trying to join a zerk speed clear that is clearly called out as one. Not whether they do more or less damage. Not whether its optimal or not.

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

I am quite curious as to why you call zerk, a face roll armor?…if anything any gear that makes you noticeably more tanky through passive stats is more facerollish than zerk. A valkyrie thief for instance can make alot more mistakes in a dungeon than a zerk thief, evident in one of my cm runs where a valk thief facetanked a rocket turret without being downed while a zerk thief would be instantly in down state. The same pretty much goes for any fights where their are big hits involved.

I wanted to avoid posting in this forum but here I feel I need to step in. He called zerk a face roll armor because thats exactly what it is. Zerker gear is whats enabling the stack meta. Where you push the boss into a corner and proceed to COMPLETELY NEGATE THE FIGHT by burning through it faster than the game can handle. It is actually bypassing the most dangerous mechanics of most boss fights. Part of the problem is with the dodge mechanic enabling you to actively stand in a stack (which in ANY OTHER GAME would be a 100% horrible idea) the other is the high damage low risk “meta” actively enabling what SHOULD be a high risk high reward playstyle to be a low risk high reward playstyle.

Namely. You will kill the boss FAR before it has even a remote chance of burning through whatever dodge rolls and aegis you can pop. It takes sustaining yourself through a fight completely out of the equation. Which in turn makes control and support useless but thats another story.

If you want to run full zerk groups feel free. But don’t you DARE act like its harder than it is. You aren’t playing the game in the hardest difficulty. Your doing it in the easiest method possible because your farming dungeons not fighting them. You know as well as I that having low toughness and vitality doesn’t mean anything when the boss simply wont have a chance to hit you.

Yep. Im well aware of where there from. I see no reason for the giant flower like plant to not grow limbs at start ripping peoples heads off though. I mean look at the thrashers.

Hmm I imagine itl have SOME damaging condi. But I doubt thatl be the main focus

I imagine til be more of a control/groupfighting weapon. Something to actually give the necro a sideline role (I doubt wel ever be heavy frontliners) instead of the current support/debuff role. I could see it acting as a sorta (you get in my range your not getting away until your dead or im dead) kinda weapon.

I hear alot about how people want the greatsword to be a mobile weapon with leaps teleports and the like. but it just doesnt fit the necro theme.

Id rather have it increase our RELATIVE mobility. By ALOT. Chill on the auto attack does this nicely. Slowing down enemies and makign us faster in comparison. Rather than a leap id rather have a pull (similar to guard gs 5 but faster and single target with a longer range) OR a leash effect (Once leashed you cant leave x range of the necro without burning a cc break to break the leash) or even a channeled aoe cripple/chill field. (finally a use for dark armor)

Mental Paradox.3845:

Pale tree origin, get the egg and find out how we intend to use it, get our collective behinds whooped by Mordremoth. Trahearne may or may not survive.

I actually wouldn’t mind trehearne surviving if he did something incredibly kitten that earned my respect. LIke face planted a mordrem troll alone. Or led attacks into wave after wave of mordrem to buy others a chance to escape. Or even standing on a wall grinning at mordrem reaching for him right as a wave of charr mortars clear the area.

Now that people have stopped throwing htemselves into the murder ball mindlessly its been pretty good. Ive actually got a few matches without either team even trying to MAKE a zerglike group in the center. There acting more like a roaming group. contracting and scattering as necessary.

The players that have actually adjusted all seem to enjoy the map.