We’ve broken down dozens of times why it’s not on par with the other elite spec mechanics. The sum total of everything is not what concerns people.
You’ve missed the point entirely. My point is that people are wrong to ignore everything else. Their analysis, much like your analysis, chooses to ignore how good any of these things are, and instead looks only at sheer quantity. That’s not how it works. Its like a kid with a pound of steak being jealous of another kid with 2 pounds of sawdust because “sawdust boy got more”.
It is lying by omission. Simple as that.
No it’s the quality of the elite spec, not the quantity of what’s been given.
Opinions aside, arguing against arguing has never worked. Do you honestly believe complaining that people are complaining is more productive than the feedback the complainers are giving?
You know your main sucks when you log on other classes that you don’t even have 1% of experience you have on thief and it is just so much more rewarding and easier…
I have over 1,500 hours on my thief and I just started playing Guardian 2 weeks ago. In sPvP I’ve already easily won 3v1 on Guardian while I’m reading the skills as I fight to see what they do. On Thief I am nowhere near as capable yet I know the profession very very well.
I find a lot of these complaints to be wrong to the point where it is irrational.
You’ve missed the point entirely.
We’ve broken down dozens of times why it’s not on par with the other elite spec mechanics. The sum total of everything is not what concerns people. Every elite spec is getting the weapon and 5 skills – no one is saying we need more weapons or more skills. The issue is how the elite specs unique mechanics are laid out.
Every other spec gets all of their spec mechanics baseline
Daredevil is the only spec with spec mechanics locked behind grandmaster traits
Every other spec gets a full trait line that augments the playstyle of the spec
Daredevil is the only spec who loses the grandmaster trait line to unlock the spec mechanics
Daredevil’s additional dodge doesn’t augment the baseline endurance regene – making it legitimately 1 more dodge than every other profession in the game…
It would be like Reapers needing to use their Grandmaster traits to change how Reaper Shroud works. Instead, baseline, Reaper Shroud is given to the profession and the grandmaster traits are powerful additions to the profession.
The general community consensus is that the dodges should be a rev legend style selection box instead of you pressing F3 over and over trying to get the dodge you want.
Mesmer – F1-4 skills which are usable in all fights
I mean, I like what they did with Steal. The mechanic’s cool. It just feels weird sitting on it because it’ll trigger defiance or something while everyone has passive benefits to being their profession at all times.
Mesmers very, very rarely shatter in boss fights, and spend a /lot/ of time ignoring their f1-f2 skills because they’ll lose phantasms, sitting on their F3 because they’ll lose phantasms and trigger defiance, and only utilising their F4 when things have gone horribly wrong because they’ll lose their phantasms.
Also, shatters have no passive benefit.
Same can be said for Guardians using virtues wrong or elementalists using the wrong attunement. A mechanic not being used is not the same as a mechanic being unusable.
My point is that if anyone else use their profession mechanics at inopportune times they do less DPS or provide less party support than they could. If Thief uses the profession mechanic at inopportune times we die.
Bonus: In some fights such we can’t even trigger out F1 ability for the traited buffs because the thing we’re attacking isn’t technically a creature so we get the “no path to target” pop up while meleeing the bad guy.
I’m saying it is patently obvious that trait scared them. Badly.
No, they removed it so that they could give it back and call it an elite spec. It was in no way OP in any game mode. No one asked for Thief nerfs because we survived too long…
I understand that Thief was OP back in the day when it could perma-invis or outright kill people in 3 seconds. That’s no fun and I’m glad we’ve moved away from it. Like you said Kageseigi, the long term solution is to increase the survivability by giving the core profession additional thief-y sustain abilities.
We’re very much in a weird place right now. We’re useful in all game modes while also being a hindrance in those modes lol. In sPvP a good thief can turn the tide of the game, we do this kind of by avoiding combat though. By back-capping and +1ing when allies need help. We’re almost like roaming offensive support to people 1v1’ing.
We definitely aren’t cannon-ey enough to be consistent glass cannons – which is fine, but then we should have some form of sustain added with stealth being made less prevalent in the near future.
Everyone else is being offered a gold chariot with their elite specs. We’re being given a recycled chariot made from broken chariots for Daredevil.
It has outstanding potential… we’re so close to having an awesome elite spec. We just have very obvious glaring design issues that the community pretty much agrees on unanimously that are incorrectly implemented.
For example I personally don’t like the idea of a channeled heal. However Karl’s buff he’s putting in will make the heal good in some people’s eyes. I understand that and even though the heal isn’t one I’ll personally use. I get it – good on him. It’s the things that everyone knows are incorrectly implemented such as the Elite Spec mechanic being locked behind our grandmaster traits and the endurance regen not accounting for the extra dodge that are causing so many issues.
This times a thousand pretty much. Daredevil has tremendous potential, if actually iterated on. Unfortunately, it seems as if it will go live in what feels like a very underdeveloped state. If Karl would open up and share some of the plans on what he plans to fix post-launch, it would go a long way to assuage people’s concerns. As is, it seems impossible to get a word on things which are near-universally agreed upon.
Let’s hope he’s the secretly-implements-what-the-community-actually-wants dev.
/s ?
The hoping part isn’t sarcasm… we should hope for the best.
Even though it seems obvious that we’re being ignored at this point, I hope Karl’s looking at our suggestions and isn’t responding because he has to talk to the UI team about adding the dodges as a selection box. Maybe he’s getting final approval on adjusting endurance regen to be % based from the balance team supervisor.
Who knows. We all obviously hope that he’ll make these changes or we wouldn’t be posting feedback or suggestions.
(…BUT… if we must make a trade to make it right, I want something in my hands ready to offer.)
Everyone else is being offered a gold chariot with their elite specs. We’re being given a recycled chariot made from broken chariots for Daredevil.
It has outstanding potential… we’re so close to having an awesome elite spec. We just have very obvious glaring design issues that the community pretty much agrees on unanimously that are incorrectly implemented.
For example I personally don’t like the idea of a channeled heal. However Karl’s buff he’s putting in will make the heal good in some people’s eyes. I understand that and even though the heal isn’t one I’ll personally use. I get it – good on him. It’s the things that everyone knows are incorrectly implemented such as the Elite Spec mechanic being locked behind our grandmaster traits and the endurance regen not accounting for the extra dodge that are causing so many issues.
I’ve long thought we should have some kind of Shadowstep core mechanic. Something akin to Infiltrator’s Arrow as a F3 (or it as the F1 and Steal as F2+F3) would make a lot of sense.
Especially since we’re the only profession with a situational/not-always-usable core mechanic.
Ele – Attuments which are usable in all fights
War – Endurance + Bursts which are usable in all fights
Ranger – Pets which are usable in all fights (but have bad AI and UI)
Necro – Shroud which is usable in all fights
Guardian – Virtues which are usable in all fights
Engi – Toolbelt which is usable in all fights
Mesmer – F1-4 skills which are usable in all fights
Rev – Legends which are usable in all fights
Thief has initiative which is fine but steal is the only profession mechanic in the game that can actually get us killed using it.
Claw of Jormag cuz of the frozen ground
WvW Zerg Combat
Any fight where melee is an instakill
I mean, I like what they did with Steal. The mechanic’s cool. It just feels weird sitting on it because it’ll trigger defiance or something while everyone has passive benefits to being their profession at all times. Adding the exact Shortbow 5 skill as Thief’s baseline F3 skill and reworking that move would go a long way to allowing us to use a weapon set other than Shortbow and something else.
ArenaNet should look at what % of Thieves who’ve completed Fractal 50 have shortbows as the second set. What % of Thieves who have high win rates in PvP have shortbows as the second set. What % of Thieves with high WvW ranks have Shortbow as the second set.
It’s pretty much accepted we’ll all be X/X and Shortbow for as long as our mobility is tied to the weapon instead of the profession.
The scary thing is how much of an uphill battle it will be to get Karl to even consider something as simple as scaling the endurance regen, when that’s how it should have been in the first place. It seems hard to get any feedback through to him that isn’t small tweaks to his already preordained design.
We definitely didn’t get the vocally-passionate dev. Let’s hope he’s the secretly-implements-what-the-community-actually-wants dev.
Just no OP lol… Adding an I-WIN button to 1/5th of your opponents hit box would be horrible.
I liked people suggesting Shortbow 5 being changed into an F3 skill so we can use a weaponset other than Shortbow as a baseline Thief profession mechanic (since every one of us are X/X and Shortbow Thieves)
While I agree with you in spirit, in practice I just can’t imagine they’ll give us permanent, un-strippable Vigor and the possibility of Vigor beyond that… I mean looking at an existing trait of that sort: Natural Vigor is only a 20% gain and takes up the entirety of the Adept minor trait slot for its line.
The whole point of that additional dodge is so that we can dodge more often. All we’re asking for is endurance recovery to be % based instead of hard number based.
Will we dodge more than other professions? Yes. That is the entire point of our elite spec. We should be dodging more than other professions.
New mechanics:
Guardian – Virtues that project physically in the world
Revenant – Channel a dragon! also a pbaoe that makes boons last longer
Warrior – Fire empowered berserk burst skills
Engineer – Mechanically assisted range finisher and reviver
Ranger – God like healing
Elementalist – Fire tornados, water bubble, lightning striking , earth quake riding madness
Mesmer – Time travel
Necromancer – Improved demonic state
Thief – dodges …..
rectification : Thief – dodge ….
Without the “s”. Because apparently our endurance still recharges at the same speed as other endurance bars.
Thief is dead. Simple.
Thief dev team is lazy. Nothing is done right, new spec is not even a new job they took old animation all together and say “hey now you are bruiser with 11k HP, please dodge”.
+ This last patch note preview. What a joke, all they said was bullkitten improvement that noone cares about. Dev don’t even know what is wrong with pistol so they came like “Hey, buff damage, hihi enjoy”. They don’t even bring D/D to the table, hell they won’t improve it.
I think Daredevil spec is simply a vizualisation of the attention thief gets right now. All classes buf thief got shiny new mechanics with really good work on it, new animations, new pets, new effects, new mechanics, new everything. Thief got old junk animations, stupid synergy, no really new mechanics, no new effects, nothing. That’s what you can expect in the future.
In a sentence: Reroll or leave the game. What’s the point of playing thief anymore?
Don’t reroll, then the terrorists win. We need to unite and show ANet that they have to change how Thief is being handled.
People are for sure overreacting.
The sky isn´t falling.
The concept of daredevil is really nice.
Don´t bash on Karl constantly.
There are just a few things that need to be done to make the daredevil work perfectly fine.
Make the new dodges selectable stances. If they are swappable in combat than let them have a cost for swapping. 50 endurance or whatever. If the developers think thats to powerful just make them swapable out of combat only.
Smoothen the new dodges. I don´t need super shiny animations. They should just work right in the first place. Cool animations would be nice but not necessary.
Put a darkfield on staff 4 so we can use our whirl, blast and leap finishers. Will change a lot. Staff is missing a combo field.
Put new grandmaster traits into the daredevil spec.
Combine the condition removal on a successful dodge into one of the minor traits.
Tada …. all good again.
Thank you Karl for communicating with us that much.
Best regards!
Shino
I agree 100%. The whole problem is that we have very clear feedback across the board with evidence as to why it should happen but we’ve received no word from ANet.
You forgot to add that endurance regen should be % based on total endurance instead of a set number per tick so that that extra dodge becomes more than just 1 extra dodge per fight.
Acrobatics should give 2 seconds of super speed after a dodge instead of 4 seconds of swiftness. Super speed is much more helpful in combat. But alas, Acrobatics feedback is better left to another thread…
I’m going to get an infraction but kitten it. Thanks for nothing Karl. Could of returned Shadowform, or Way of the Master but no. An extra dodge, yeah thanks.
#bestclasshmechanic 2015
Every twitch show I’ve watched regarding thieves and him ends up with him showing such disinterest, that I’m surprised he hasn’t yawned during the show. He seriously doesn’t like thieves, or at least gives a very strong impression of that.
I’ve gotten similar impressions, I’ve heard others bring it up in TeamSpeak and I’ve even seen randoms in LA map chat discussing this same thing.
Don’t forget the fact that breakbars will make mobs uninterruptable so our Pulmonary Impact on interrupt trait will be outright useless against all boss mobs. We got a trait specifically for trash mobs, yay!
Players have break bars? News to me.
And not the only way you can get pulmonary Impacts. Plus if you are fighting a big boss you know has a bar why are you loading on-interrupt traits?
Not a single point in that quote did I mention players.
I have no idea why you’re allowed to flame as much as you do on these forums. Where are the admins? Seriously, what is your goal here other than trying to disrupt the thread and make everything go off-topic?
omg 3 dodge so coool cant wait to test it out blah blah blah and now u are complaining it sux ? Most of ppl who think daredevil is coool dont even play thief as main so they dont really care.
This 100%. The people who support it as-is who have said that they main thief read as if they don’t do any of the more difficult content.
We need to let them know that the poor efforts of our elite spec are way too obvious. Daredevil, Tempest and Dragon Hunter are easily the worst elite specs that have been developed.
-A class mechanic that is simply one extra dodge, and modified dodges, with RECYCLED ANIMATIONS
The class mechanic is only the dodge. The modified dodges are our grandmaster traits… If they are supposed to be the class mechanic they should function like all other elite specs and be baseline. Thereby giving us access to an actual set of grandmaster trait line.
Don’t forget the fact that breakbars will make mobs uninterruptable so our Pulmonary Impact on interrupt trait will be outright useless against all boss mobs. We got a trait specifically for trash mobs, yay!
Assuming that our elite spec mechanic gets moved to the appropriate place, the grandmasters can be as follows:
Daredevil’s Revenge – Evading an attack steals 1 offensive boon from your enemy and applies it to yourself and nearby allies. (5-15 sec icd)
Daredevil’s Refuge – Evading an attack steals 1 defensive boon from your enemy and applies it to yourself and nearby allies. (5-15 sec icd)
Marvelous Daredevil – When you successfully evade an attack you apply reveal to nearby enemies for 5 seconds. You also gain the ability to see enemy outlines through terrain for 10 seconds. (30-40 sec icd)
I modeled these after Karl’s 1 trait is offensive, 1 trait is defensive and 1 trait is utility. The first two use the boon stealing that everyone’s been talking about. The last one is a play on Marvel’s Daredevil character. The outline will look like left 4 dead. I’ve attached an image for those who don’t know what that’s like.
The dodges are obviously the elite spec mechanic. When Anet advertises the other elite specs, they mention the baseline abilities, when they advertise the Daredevil they mention our grandmaster choices.
Daredevil is about the three dodges. The whole elite spec is balanced around those dodges. Therefor, unlike the other elite specs we’re losing out on quite a bit by making them traits instead of the rev legend style box.
I’m attaching the images again because people seem genuinely confused on what the issue here is. We’re not asking for the ability to swap dodges in combat – we’re asking for the dodges to be baseline in the elite specs first minor trait like every other elite spec and to be given a real set of grandmaster choices.
I’m shocked that you’ve persisted so diligently in asserting that the Daredevil GMs aren’t “real”. They all have very real effects on dodge, and all augment dodge in a unique way that makes them very strong. I’m not sure what you genuinely expect to change in response to your complaints.
How many other elite specializations trade a whole tier of trait choices for their elite mechanic, exactly? Oh right… zero.
Or are you going to insist with a straight face that it’s an extra dodge-bar pip?
I’m genuinely surprised that there are people who think that the dodges should be locked into the trait line instead of havign them baseline in the spec.
Just a simple glance at how the elite specs are laid out you can clearly see that the elite spec mechanic is baseline for every single one of the other professions…
I think that’s just because we’re in such a bad place compared to those two professions that we have more issues with having such an underdeveloped elite spec.
At the end of the day, core Ele and Guard will probably still shine over all elite specs.
No matter what weapon set you chose add a shortbow.
At this point it would be better if they just put shortbow’s #5 as our F3 skill so that we weren’t forced to use shortbow for 100% of the game’s content.
The missing Grandmaster traits are right behind Staff animations as people’s biggest concern by a mile. We need to hear something from you on this, even if it’s “time is limited and we won’t be able to get you real Grandmaster traits until after launch”. Honesty is the best policy, my friend
I couldn’t agree more. I just wish animation updates were something they were planning on doing.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not trolling. I want to see the Daredevil get better, because it’s going to revitalize the Super Unicorn I already love to play.
You’re not providing feedback for Daredevil. You’re only telling people that their feedback is wrong. If you want positive change, make the suggestions instead of passive aggressively telling people how stupid they are.
Yes and no one ever complained that Thief had Feline Grace. People only ever complained about stealth. Feline Grace was well accepted by the entire GW2 community.
It was nerfed so that it could be given back watered down as an e-spec.
If the rate at which the degen happens does not overcome the rate at which the bar recovers, it is not stopping.
And the degen is pathetic to be honest. Did you even play the last beta weekend event? This solution was already in it, and my chills hardly contributed to a broken bar.
I want to correct a few misconceptions here:
Not all defiant bars have regen, in these cases soft CC will degen the bar as long as they are up until broken.
This new system was not present in BWE2, it is new as of BWE3.
Robert, can you clarify if on-interrupt procs will occur even though the interrupt won’t be applied to the mob? Similar to how on-chill procs can still happen even though chill itself won’t be applied.
Example being the Daredevil’s Impacting Disruption trait that applies Pulmonary Impact on Interrupt. Will we still be able to apply Pulmonary Impact that way to boss mobs with the break bar or is that ability designed exclusively for sPvP and trash mobs?
Here is the picture I made demonstrating what I mean by my statement. I hope others agree.
Not to go off-topic, but are you the dude who’s been drawing all of these sweet Daredevil animation sketches? They’re pretty awesome from a clarity of what’s happening perspective and an image-in-motion perspective.
Well done.
Bonus note – this would be a cool version of the dodge as long as the shadowstep particle effects are blendy enough
Bullcrap. If at any point you managed to get back up to 2 dodges banked the Daredevil continues to accumulate charge and all other professions are sucking wind.
I’m sorry but I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.
Do you think the Daredevil’s profession mechanic should only be 1 extra dodge per encounter while everyone else gets a whole bunch of new abilities?
It’s only “one per encounter” if you’re burning them as fast as you get them. If you get any lull in the action it can be significantly more dodges per encounter than any other profession gets because the Daredevil has a ‘wider net’ to catch time in. They don’t just have better burst dodge than any other profession, they also have better endurance capacity than any other profession because after getting to two dodges stored they keep gaining endurance in a way no other profession does. That means they can absorb the benefits of vigor 50% longer than any other class.
Here, assume two characters with exactly 2 dodges ready (100 endurance). That happens a lot. Even mid-encounter. Cast vigor on them both. One gets nothing. One gets benefit. Guess which one is the Daredevil?
So assuming the Daredevil’s not using their profession mechanic, they have access to use it more often? I’m sorry man but if a Thief has full endurance mid encounter they’re not doing something right. They have 2 traits in the Daredevil line based on not having full endurance and the new heal is based on not having full endurance.
Even assuming your version of combat where a Thief decides not to dodging so that we can “burst dodge” later, an extra handful of dodges isn’t on par with a new reaper shroud, berserk mode or continuum split. It’s a weaker version of Feline Grace that we had for 2.5 years of the games life that was nerfed a few months ago to make room for Daredevil.
It’s obvious that the dodge themselves are the actual elite spec mechanic. We love the dodges, we just know that they’re misplaced when you look at the other elite specs.
Bullcrap. If at any point you managed to get back up to 2 dodges banked the Daredevil continues to accumulate charge and all other professions are sucking wind.
I’m sorry but I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.
Do you think the Daredevil’s profession mechanic should only be 1 extra dodge per encounter while everyone else gets a whole bunch of new abilities?
