I kind of just randomly crash. I’ve noticed it happened more frequently in LA when I open a window.
It’s almost like we’ve been trying to warn you about this for weeks.
The dodges are only allowed to be this strong BECAUSE they are traits.
Why do people insist on mutual exclusivity…
Reaper Shroud is far more powerful than the dodges. Celestial form is farm more powerful than the dodges. Most elite spec mechanics are either significantly stronger than or about equal to the dodges and none of them are traits.
In general, traits are weaker than profession mechanics.
That big blue raven kills it for quite a few players. ANet please let us dye weapons & let that staff’s blue light be dye-able.
They added fused gathering items back and those aren’t even spooky! #BelieveInANet
We are just evolving into other classes, not much saving to be done at this point. Rather have a dev that cares about my class.
^^ I don’t know a single person who mains Thief anymore. I put in over 1,500 hours and I honestly had to step away from the BWE this weekend because of how the prof’s been treated.
Decided I’m going to play other professions so now I can get psyched about elite specs.
I already own a few different sets of infinite gathering tools but I’ve never picked up the spooky set. I hope they bring back the Minion Set of gathering tools for Halloween this year.
With no intensity stacking, it’s not really doing more damage than burning though.
Even at the highest estimate here of 1k per tick, Deathly Chill’s only as effective as having less than 3 stacks of burning on something. It’s so easy for other profession’s Condi builds with burning to get lots of stacks and really that’s what Reaper’s competing against..
Ah snap, I guess the wiki’s outdated.
Was it stacking in intensity too or was it just a modifier change?
So I was talking about Sinister Reaper builds with my guildies and the question came up, Should Deathly Chill do more damage than burning?
Right now Deathly Chill info on the wiki is:
- Damage below Threshold: 145 (0.12)?
- Damage above Threshold: 97 (0.08)?
- Health Threshold: 50%
Burning is:
- (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131.5
We get 1382 Condi Damage from full Ascended Sinister gear which makes them:
- Deathly Chill = 310.84 per tick below 50%, 207.56 per tick above 50%
- Burning = 345.71 per tick
Should Reaper’s have access to a high damage condi? Burning stacks in intensity but Unless the trait will also change how Chill itself works, it will only stack in duration. With all this talk about Reaper’s not being included in Raid comps, I think Reaper would have a much stronger place in a raid comp if they can have a strong condi that was prof specific.
Deathly Chill should:
- Out damage burning at least by a little
- Stack in Intensity and Duration
Answering OPs questions
- Practicality of skills. Is a certain skill reliable? Does it do enough damage or perform it’s function well? How’s the cast time?
Mechanic wise, Daredevil feels like the old Acrobatics Thief. It’s DPS is higher with the new dodges and Dash is pretty fun to use. I don’t think our sustain went up enough to match the current power-creep meta of HoT.
- Trait synergy and effectiveness. Do traits work well with each other and with traits from other lines? Do they perform well in practice, not just on paper? Do they define builds well?
Our traits aren’t exciting. Having the dodges on our grandmaster trait line instead of being baseline like Rev legends is a pretty big let down for most people.
- Does daredevil feel unique from thief (given that acro has changed, please avoid comparing to pre June thief)? Can you create fun and useful builds with the tools it provides?
It’s like Thief and a half. It’s good enough to be considered useful but doesn’t offer us anything we didnt really already have access to.
- How does thief (not daredevil) fare against daredevil and other classes introduced in HoT. Keep in mind, all elites and even base specs have received significant changes since the last BWE. Please give feedback based on this weekend and not past experiences.
I fought quite a few traditional and HoT meta builds as a Staff Daredevil. The weapon doesn’t provide the sustain we need. I tried it out as a sustain DPS style since that what it’s apparently designed for but Vault was too dangerous to use consistently.
- State one thing you really like about daredevil.
The animation’s are much cleaner (dodges aside) – I’m not in the camp that it should look like Naruto… No martial artist will ever run with a staff behind their back. The only thing I wish was different was the fantasy-style abilities should be more martial arts looking. Ex. Staff auto-chain #3 should be a whirling spin that an actual martial artist does instead of the weird helicopter thing.
- State one thing you dislike/want changed about daredevil.
I wish we had more sustain. I was hoping this would bring us up to group fight potential or better 1v1 that didn’t require pure burst and run tactics. If that was the goal it’s not quite there. The worst is probably that the trait’s are messy and our elite spec mechanic is on the trait line instead of baseline like everyone elses. The last 3 traits could add the sustain we need.
Thoughts on Daredevil
We’ve beaten this dead horse a few thousand times and at this point I’m not even sure it’s corpse resembles a horse anymore… but Daredevil needs to have the dodges selectable outside of combat as a baseline selection box similar to rev’s legends. We need the grandmaster line traits to be well thought our, grandmaster quality traits.
Staff
People sent me /whispers very often in sPvP telling me that they tried staff in PvP and it sucked. These notes are a result of those convos.
Staff is just not quite there. It doesn’t give us the sustain we need to be effective in mass scale fights. So many other professions have invulnerability and strong stunbreaks/condi cleanse. Daredevil could be our sustain/off-tank quality spec line. To prevent our other meta builds from going crazy, IMO this survivability can be put on Staff.
- The auto chain is nice as is. Projectile reflections cool, though a little hard to time since it’s on the third move. Maybe if you add very short projectile reflect to the first two so we can use it like a baseball bat on purpose, that’d be cool. A combination of this and a larger vault distance can make Staff a great option to replace Shortbow.
- AoE weakness just isn’t great. It’s no where near powerful enough to help Thief with it’s baseline weaknesses. Putting something like transferring condi’s to a nearby enemy would be something more helpful – though obviously too powerful for a spammable skill.
- #3 is in a good place. It doesn’t have any umph to it, but as it works in the weapon I’d say it’s pretty good.
- #4 needs a darkness or smoke field. 4 initiative for just a small AoE blind is too expensive to keep going with. If it’s going to remain without a combo field I think the initiative should be dropped to 3.
- I think Vault needs a buff. The distance is too short and it needs evasion frames. 6 Initiative will be too much to keep it competitive. The distance should be 900 and the aftercast should be removed so that we can use it instead of Infiltrator’s shot.
Additional Staff Notes
- I found it a little more difficult to stay on people using staff compared to most other weapon sets.
- When we need DPS in PvE, D/D and D/P provide it better.
- When we need to stack for PvE content, S/P and D/P do it better.
- When we need survivability, S/P and S/D provide it better.
- When we need control, S/P provides it better.
- When we need mobility SB provides it better.
I can’t think of any content where Staff is a better option than something else we already have.
Bug
To add to the bug’s listed in posts before mine:
- Vault doesn’t go the max distance. If you put the vault ground placement as far as you can and use the ability you’ll stop short about 50-100 units shorter than where you intended. When the ring’s close it works fine and you land exactly where the center is – only far away does this issue occur.
- Pulmonary Impact on interrupt trait doesn’t trigger on mobs with breakbars. I know you guys made other effects-on-trigger traits that don’t work on breakbars work, such as Reaper’s chill effect traits work against break bars so in all likelihood this is just an oversight.
- The animation for the heal is bugged if you cast it while moving. While still you float up in the air and look all fancy. if you cast it while moving your legs stay on the ground and it looks like you break your neck lol. Just update it so that you float around while moving and it’ll be fixed.
- The heal casting time was supposed to be 3/4 sec this BWE instead of 2 and 1/4. It’s still 2 and 1/4.
(edited by Shalien.9018)
I already tried multiple times but you’ll have ppl in a few hours say “what they showed on stream is never final”. Which is somewhere true but there was no communication from Anet to say “hey, we’re not gonna buff Withdraw”.
As of this moment, after months, still no word about it.
As far as it’s feels, they’re letting Thief die, despite their hard work on Dare Devil..But it’s not just “something they said in a stream” – it’s right there in the patch notes! I have a screenshot AND I saved the .htm page from the game release notes forum in case they change their mind about it later, but currently it’s a documented change that was just skipped.
Edit: Here’s the bullet point, copied and pasted from the June 23rd patch notes -
-Withdraw: This ability is now a trick. Increased the recharge of this ability from 15 to 18. Healing (both base and healing power) coefficients have been increased by 10%.
It seems that they just want people to forget all about the promised healing increase to justify the CD increase.
With how they treat professions the devs aren’t into at the time, I’d say it’s more likely they just forgot and can’t be bothered going through the hundreds of posts to see what people are talking about.
They just need more employees…
People complaining about withdraw, we still only have one good elite. =/
Lucky for you updating skills isn’t a mutually exclusive thing.
Bumping to ‘help them remember’… /grumble
other classes devs went for powercreep, our dev went for balance in vacuum + 0 communication between them….. go figure
You know…another way of looking at this is that our dev is the only one that did his job properly if that is indeed the case.
They’re supposed to be balancing around the upcoming meta.
Obviously there would be some power-creep/meta-change in giving all professions a new trait line. The fact that we’re the only ones who are left behind means the Thief is the one unbalanced, not the other way around. We’re not in the new bell curve.
Watching them use katana’s as if they were broadswords was extremely cring worthy. I get that that’s kinda the point… but omg… OP you’re killing me!
Guild Mission/Favor problem for 1-2 p guilds
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Shalien.9018
Funny thread.
Semantics aside I think people should be able to make Bank guilds. As long as that’s possible, that’s all that a 1 person guild needs to be able to do.
Yeah I think the evasion was a trade-off option for 6 initiative. Honestly, 6 is too much for most things and Staff’s already one of the less optimal weapon sets (in the current meta… we can only theorize what happens after hoT) IMO it should have evasion added, increase the range to 900 and keep the initiative at 5. This way we’d have a real contender for Shortbow replacement.
I have been very clear over a period of weeks—as have many other major proponents of decoupling the dodges, such as Shalien—that the proposed toggle should definitely not be usable in combat. We have repeatedly used the Revenant Legend UI as a point of comparison, as it’s a good example of how to do this sort of thing correctly: they can only switch Legends while out of combat and not in an active SPvP match.
At this point I can only assume willful ignorance on your part, as you keep bringing up the in combat point, seemingly to misrepresent the argument. This is a type of informal fallacy that as known as a Straw Man: misrepresenting your opponent’s argument so it is easy to tear apart; this frees one up to not respond to any salient points an opposing argument may have made.
I will ask you yet again: assuming the dodges maintain their current utility and power—which is something I would say we all want—what is it about one additional trait that would take the Daredevil from its current (arguably underpowered) state, to one of being overpowered? I’m eager to hear your reasoning.
The biggest problem about calling it all a straw man is that the real man is standing right behind you. Likewise, if you make a post the burden is on you to make sure everyone understands. Don’t just say “Oh, it is implied that I have elaborated on it somewhere else in the forum”. No, it is not implied. You have to add those 2 or 3 sentences that explains exactly what you mean, or else any ambiguity is on your head.
You are misrepresenting my argument. My argument was that making all 3 dodges available on the fly makes the Daredevil OP. This is the informal fallacy called the Loaded Question: you’re making incorrect assumptions and then pressing for an answer that would validate this assumption. Given how much I’ve just written on the subject, I can only assume it is willful ignorance at this point.
Nah man. You’re legit reaching for straws. Whatever logical fallacies you want to say other people are using, you’re the one not understanding what’s going on. Multiple people have tried to tell you this now and you insist that everyone else is wrong.
At some point, a teacher has to stop focusing all their effort on one student who’s not getting the subject material.
It’s not our responsibility to try to make you understand what’s happening. We’ve tried many times to help you and not only do you refuse to try to comprehend the conversations being had – you also think that every person on this forum who disagrees with you is in the same camp.
Obviously, range increase to 1200 & adding in ricochet as a trait would go a long way.
Vital Shot
This should be where the damage should be. IMO P/P has a great starting point for a condi Thief build. The way initiative works vs. traditional cooldowns, our autoattack should always be the highest DPS ability on a weapon. Up the bleed stacks to 5 seconds and apply a second bleed per shot.Body Shot
Body Shot is where Pistol needs the most help. Many people think it should be changed to a sustain skill. Something that maybe grants 1-2 seconds of evasion.Thematically it can be changed to something like Point Blank where we teleport to the target in the style of Rev’s sword 3, shoot them point blank and then teleport back to where we started. Having evasion during the entire animation. In addition to the added evasion, it would still apply the Vuln and Imob that’s on the set today.
On the teleport we’d have Shadow Step particle effects, I just want to avoid no valid path to target issues.
Unload
For Unload’s improvement I think the guns should overheat on the last few shots.
- Shot 1-5 would work the same as they do today.
- Shot 6 would Blind neaby enemies
- Shot 7 and 8 would cause Burning and Blind nearby enemies
This way the animation stays the same, you just add some smoke & ember particle effects to the last few shots. The 3 quick applications of Burning would add some utility/sustain and the Burning would fit the Pistols mainhand theme of being a condi weapon.
The base damage can be reduced to account for the two stacks of burning.
Sneak Attack
I saved Sneak Attack for after Unload so you understand the overheating concept.Sneak Attack’s good but shot 4 and 5 should also cause Blind to nearby enemies.
Pistol off-hand is great as is.
The main problem with this is the fact you’re trying to build a condi thief build, out of P/P which is illsuited for condi, on top of thief being the worst condi in the game anyway. Unless EVERYTHING thief has and utilizes now in all weapon sets and utilities get fully redesigned, it’s really unfeasible to start converting a clear power weapon set to support condi, which is already less than lackluster.
For P/P the dual wield skill is the one off. Everything pistol main hand is condition. Pistol off-hand is also condition. It makes sense for Thief to have access to a condition damage build and P/x is a good place to start since it’s the only Stealth Attack we have that causes condition damage.
Like half of the dual wield skills, Unload just doesn’t fit the actual weapons it’s attached to. As long as we keep our dual skills as hybrids that don’t fit a weapon set’s damage types, we’re going to remain stuck with D/P as our only real option.
I had suggested Vulnerability be moved to unload from number 2 so as to make that skill usable in a condition build as well. That said in its current state if you use Conditions in p/p build unload DOES have limited use if firing into a combo field.
Yeah, I’m not talking about limited use though. We are pretty much stuck with 1 real competitive weapon set, we should have our rework suggestions be based around making other weapon sets competitive.
Obviously, range increase to 1200 & adding in ricochet as a trait would go a long way.
Vital Shot
This should be where the damage should be. IMO P/P has a great starting point for a condi Thief build. The way initiative works vs. traditional cooldowns, our autoattack should always be the highest DPS ability on a weapon. Up the bleed stacks to 5 seconds and apply a second bleed per shot.Body Shot
Body Shot is where Pistol needs the most help. Many people think it should be changed to a sustain skill. Something that maybe grants 1-2 seconds of evasion.Thematically it can be changed to something like Point Blank where we teleport to the target in the style of Rev’s sword 3, shoot them point blank and then teleport back to where we started. Having evasion during the entire animation. In addition to the added evasion, it would still apply the Vuln and Imob that’s on the set today.
On the teleport we’d have Shadow Step particle effects, I just want to avoid no valid path to target issues.
Unload
For Unload’s improvement I think the guns should overheat on the last few shots.
- Shot 1-5 would work the same as they do today.
- Shot 6 would Blind neaby enemies
- Shot 7 and 8 would cause Burning and Blind nearby enemies
This way the animation stays the same, you just add some smoke & ember particle effects to the last few shots. The 3 quick applications of Burning would add some utility/sustain and the Burning would fit the Pistols mainhand theme of being a condi weapon.
The base damage can be reduced to account for the two stacks of burning.
Sneak Attack
I saved Sneak Attack for after Unload so you understand the overheating concept.Sneak Attack’s good but shot 4 and 5 should also cause Blind to nearby enemies.
Pistol off-hand is great as is.
The main problem with this is the fact you’re trying to build a condi thief build, out of P/P which is illsuited for condi, on top of thief being the worst condi in the game anyway. Unless EVERYTHING thief has and utilizes now in all weapon sets and utilities get fully redesigned, it’s really unfeasible to start converting a clear power weapon set to support condi, which is already less than lackluster.
For P/P the dual wield skill is the one off. Everything pistol main hand is condition. Pistol off-hand is also condition. It makes sense for Thief to have access to a condition damage build and P/x is a good place to start since it’s the only Stealth Attack we have that causes condition damage.
Like half of the dual wield skills, Unload just doesn’t fit the actual weapons it’s attached to. As long as we keep our dual skills as hybrids that don’t fit a weapon set’s damage types, we’re going to remain stuck with D/P as our only real option.
Obviously, range increase to 1200 & adding in ricochet as a trait would go a long way.
Vital Shot
This should be where the damage should be. IMO P/P has a great starting point for a condi Thief build. The way initiative works vs. traditional cooldowns, our autoattack should always be the highest DPS ability on a weapon. Up the bleed stacks to 5 seconds and apply a second bleed per shot.
Body Shot
Body Shot is where Pistol needs the most help. Many people think it should be changed to a sustain skill. Something that maybe grants 1-2 seconds of evasion.
Thematically it can be changed to something like Point Blank where we teleport to the target in the style of Rev’s sword 3, shoot them point blank and then teleport back to where we started. Having evasion during the entire animation. In addition to the added evasion, it would still apply the Vuln and Imob that’s on the set today.
On the teleport we’d have Shadow Step particle effects, I just want to avoid no valid path to target issues.
Unload
For Unload’s improvement I think the guns should overheat on the last few shots.
- Shot 1-5 would work the same as they do today.
- Shot 6 would Blind neaby enemies
- Shot 7 and 8 would cause Burning and Blind nearby enemies
This way the animation stays the same, you just add some smoke & ember particle effects to the last few shots. The 3 quick applications of Burning would add some utility/sustain and the Burning would fit the Pistols mainhand theme of being a condi weapon.
The base damage can be reduced to account for the two stacks of burning.
Sneak Attack
I saved Sneak Attack for after Unload so you understand the overheating concept.
Sneak Attack’s good but shot 4 and 5 should also cause Blind to nearby enemies.
Pistol off-hand is great as is.
Thanks for the update Karl. Since it seems like staff won’t be getting any new animations, maybe you could go talk to the legendary weapon people and have them give us a martial staff with Kilik from Soul Calibur style animations… /winkwink
As many people have asked, can we get your thoughts on moving the dodges out of the grandmaster trait position and making them baseline like all the other elite specs? If you disagree, at least let us hear your concerns so we can more intelligently try to convince you instead of repeating it to each other, lol.
We want balance as much as you and many of us are volunteering dozens of hours theorycrafting to assist as we can.
Bonus thought – Can the damaging dodges please only do damage while out of stealth so we don’t lose our stealth attacks trying to survive?
It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude.
You have made it clear that you believe the dodges should remain Grandmaster traits. While I see your line of reasoning, you seem to be working under the false assumption that the dodges not being Grandmaster traits means that they would have to be switchable in combat and on the fly. This thoroughly misrepresents the argument, as no one with an even cursory grasp of game balance is suggesting that. What the reasonable proponents of the “make the dodges baseline” argument are suggesting is that the dodges should be decoupled from the Grandmaster traits. That is all.
Yeah I’m done responding to them. They aren’t getting it and it’s not productive for me to keep trying.
D/D as a hyrbid would be cool…
You guys seriously think ANet can figure out how to make D/D work as a hybrid well enough that it enters the Meta? When they can’t even figure out how to make Pistol main hand work? Or when ANet recycles a bunch of stuff and calls it the Daredevil? Or when Withdrawn’s heal cooldown was nerfed and they just forgot to update the heal for over 3 months now?
There’s 0 effort being put into this profession, hoping for skillful balance of something as delicate as a hybrid power/condi weapon set is not something they’re going to be putting effort into.
It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude. Instead of getting these skills 3 consecutive times + 1 every 4 seconds (front loaded, so really it is closer to 6 consecutive times), we’ll get one of each every 15 seconds, 12 with the new grandmaster which will offer to reduce the cooldown. Or if they don’t get a cooldown, their effectiveness will be cut down to a third to put them in line with the other damage dealing dodge skills, making them mild nuisances rather than a potent tool at our disposal.
Dude, what are you even talking about anymore. You’re legit just making stuff up now… Maybe there’s a language barrier or something…
What they really need to do is make unload and death blossom switch what they do. Let D/D be a proper power set and let P/P be a proper condition set. What’s the point of dual skills changing for weapons if they don’t fit what the other 4 skills excel at?
New Unload:
Fire a shot that bleeds the target and then explodes, bleeding nearby enemies.
Damage (8x): 100
Bleeding (5s): 660 Damage
Number of Targets: 3
Radius: 120
Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20% chance)
Range: 900
New Death Blossom:
Do an evasive attack over your opponent, striking nearby enemies three times. Each hit causes Vulnerability.
Damage (3x): 400
Vulnerability (5s): 3% Incoming Damage, 3% Incoming Condition Damage
Number of Targets: 3
Evade: 1/2s
Combo Finisher: Whirl
Range: 130
It’s going to be hard spending my time writing feedback on BWE3 knowing that the only things that have really changed for Daredevil from BWE2 were bug fixes masked as updates.
Same here. I need to log in so I can buy me some winter clothes!
Saying the elite spec’s poorly conceived/implimented does not mean we think it’s inferior. Many of us have said many times that we really like where Daredevil’s going, it just needs polish.
#1: Is the DD line actually deficient in any way? Sure there’s that complaint about “specialization mechanics”, but overall is the DD losing?
We’re losing because everything’s recycled and clunky. We’re obviously not as polished as the majority of HoT. Our animations are recycled, our particle effects are recycled and our trait layout is the only one that falls outside the bell curve. It’s very clear that ANet isn’t putting in the same amount of work with Thief as they are with the other elite specs. We run the risk of being ‘born’ as OP Daredevils and then nerfed into the ground just as strong as we run the risk of us being ‘born’ UP Daredevils.
Daredevil’s a ‘fun’ spec yes, but we’re pasting it onto an already weirdly structured profession. ANet’s been moving away from stealth as the Thief’s primary defensive mechanic, which is fine, but now we’re being required to take an elite spec to give us what Acrobatics should already be giving us.
It only seems powerful because they took away half of what was already working in acrobatics and gave it back to us as an elite spec. Our baseline profession should be good. Acrobatics should synergize with Daredevil instead of being hurt by it’s development. As it stands, Trickery and Daredevil are almost a requirement for post-HoT builds. They put too much into the Daredevil line…
When the second set of elite specs come out, we’re going to have to make the choice of not being Daredevil’s. Acrobatics isn’t worth taking and it should be functional in non-Daredevil builds.
#2: If the DD is deficient, then how would you improve on the grandmasters, given that they are the best in their field?
Moving the Dodges to an out-of-combat selection box, we’d get 1 additional offensive, defensive and utility trait. We’re also lacking party support quite a bit.
- Burst conditions are our weakness so our defensive trait could grant resistance or something akin to the engineers 20% condition reduction. Additionally, blind-on-evade could give us some nice party support.
- Offensively something like evading an attack applies 5 vuln on the thing you evaded would be good for offensive party support. Maybe stuff like evading an attack grants 3 might to nearby allies. We’re going to have a harder time stacking in dungeons since we’re mobility based so maybe some offensive on-dodge or on-evade abilities can help cover that gap.
- Utility-wise something like a new version of the old feline grace. Evading an attack returns 15 endurance should be enough. We don’t need it to be on-dodge as an on-evade is far more limited and will require more skillful play. Again, to go the party support route we could make it evading grants 10 endurance to all nearby allies?
(edited by Shalien.9018)
Dragon Hunter, Tempest and Daredevil are the poorest received elite specs by far. They need more devs reviewing them because they’re obviously not as well conceived as the other elite specs.
I was an Assassin in the original Guild Wars with over 4,000 hours on that character alone. I got 50/50 in the HoM and GWAMM’ed it up.
I play Thief because it’s the evolution of that profession. Sure, we’re back-alley bruisers instead of disciplined assassins but we’re still spiritually the same profession. I’ve been playing this style profession in Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 since 2006 when Factions launched. I have overwhelming faith in ArenaNet’s ability to make great professions.
Just because we’re in a lull period in the profession doesn’t mean we’ll stay here forever. With sPvP becoming a higher priority for ANet I have no doubt that regular balance passes will even out all OP builds and make every profession closer to true balance.
Balance aside, it’s fun being fast. I enjoy the profession’s thematic elements and the feeling of being a martial artist. Now if we can only get martial arts animations and medium armor that’s not steam-punk/cowboy/pirate themed I’ll be truly impressed, lol.
Its only a real funeral, if you delete all your thiefs – however, personally Id never go so far.
When Anet suddenly sees in their statistics a huge spike down of a massively lesser thief population… when it goes suddenly drastically towards 0, thats imo the only sign that Anet would understand, that here is somethign going really wrong with the class design and that a change by design has to be done – by either Karl finally waking up either, or Karl giving his design responsibility scepter over to an other Dev like Irenio or Robert Gee to let them fix the Thief, what he couldn’t to the likings of the thief community and concentrate hisself on other design tasks, that have nothing to do with Class Designs (not meant bad towards Karl, but one should be blind not to realize, that the the major part of the thief community currently isn’t very happy about their state of their class by his design)
Forum posters are probably less than 0.1% of the Thief community. Even if everyone who posts here deleted their Thieves we’d barely make a dent in how many people actually play the prof.
It would definitely be an interesting way to bring Thief to a more competitive position. I like the idea as long as all the ICDs are in place. We’d have more of a free feeling for our mobillity (since we’ll all usually use shortbow as the second set).
It’d be interesting to have combos such as CnD leading into any weapons stealth attack at will.
Burn Guards just have a low barrier to entry. You can pretty easily make a burn guard and do decently well. For many people, playing a burn guard is easier than playing the profession they play most.
Once you know how it works you can counter it, it’s really burning that’s OP atm.
I for one welcome our new balanced overlords.
In all honesty there are quite a few OP builds and UP builds running around out there. Balance patches are one of the healthiest things an MMO can do for the community.
Today’s the big day. I’m honestly real excited to see how the balance is done. I personally hope Acrobatics gets a buff.
we dont want the other professions who want us to be +1 class more fuel by repeating the 2013 thief and giving them Vietnam flashbacks
Yeah. We should focus on bringing us up to par on our current role in the meta instead of trying to make us OP.
Thieves aren’t as glassy as we’re made out to be. On the statistical side we’re the second to least durable class (next to the elementalist), but our defenses aren’t in our statistics. Our defenses come from our ability to debuff and disable, our personal healing, and our high movement speed. The glassiness might be a meta enforced problem: the thief’s current roles are done best in GC gear, so from the perspective of build specs we’re not as durable as Celestials.
I understand the point you’re attempting to make, but I don’t believe it’s as solid as you’re making it sound.
This. It’s over simplification reinforcing itself.
(edited by Shalien.9018)
I’ll do it the other way. If/when they fix Daredevil I’ll buy 100 more dollars in gems.
I posted this in another thread but I’m pretty sure Karl & co. don’t have time to browse everything so I’m copy pasting it here:
The concerns for Daredevil are the base principles behind the elite specialization’s layout and how Daredevil is designed in a manner that doesn’t match the design standard of all other elite specializations. Thereby making it suffer from power-creep being introduced by HoT.
Every other elite spec gets:
- New/robust profession mechanic
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 9 new major traits
Daredevil gets:
- 1 additional dodge bar
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 6 new major traits
- Obviously, the dodges are the main part of the new mechanic. Instead of being given to us baseline like everyone else, these are locked behind our trait line and replace the grandmaster traits.
All that needs to be done to balance Daredevil against the design standard is roll the dodges into the elite spec mechanic so that it matches every other elite spec’s design. Then Daredevil would have:
- New/robust profession mechanic
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 9 new major traits
From there skill balance can be done normally.
But what is a dev supposed to say when the entire forum is eulogizing their thieves, telling other players to reroll, throwing fits of jealousy over things other professions are getting, and proclaiming falsehoods like thieves only have dodges or thieves won’t survive raids?
Everyone is salty because everyone is wading through your tears.
You’re arguing with me as if I was the entire Thief community.
I never made personal attacks. I never said to stop playing Thief. I never posted in the funeral thread. I’ve never said that Thieves wont survive in raids. If you’re going to argue with me, argue with things I’ve said instead of things that you think I may have said.
In contrast to what you’re saying, I’ve actually been quite optimistic… to quote myself from this very thread:
Shalien.9018Even though it seems obvious that we’re being ignored at this point, I hope Karl’s looking at our suggestions and isn’t responding because he has to talk to the UI team about adding the dodges as a selection box. Maybe he’s getting final approval on adjusting endurance regen to be % based from the balance team supervisor.
I understand that you feel like that people are incorrect about Dardevil.
The people who are saying that daredevil needs to improve are basing it on theory-crafted min-maxing and number crunching. Not on how they feel about the elite spec. It’s quite clear you don’t understand where the issues are and that’s fine, but you should try not to be mean to people just because you don’t understand what they’re suggesting or why they’re upset.
If you have the math to back up your beliefs, post them as a peer and let it be reviewed by the community. Educate people instead of trying to belittle everyone.
I’m going to reiterate one more time for you, if you still don’t get it I’m sorry I can’t communicate it in a way you understand. The concerns for Daredevil are the base principles behind the elite specialization’s layout and how Daredevil is designed in a manner that doesn’t match the design standard of all other elite specializations. Thereby making it suffer from power-creep being introduced by HoT.
Every other elite spec gets:
- New/robust profession mechanic
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 9 new major traits
Daredevil gets:
- 1 additional dodge bar
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 6 new major traits
- Obviously, the dodges are the main part of the new mechanic. Instead of being given to us baseline, these are locked behind our trait line and replace the grandmaster traits.
All they need to do to balance Daredevil against the design standard is roll the dodges into the elite spec mechanic so that it matches every other elite spec’s design. Then we’d have:
- New/robust profession mechanic
- New weapon
- New 6-10 skill category
- 3 new minor traits
- 9 new major traits
I mean… you think Thieves are in the top 3 professions right now. For casual gameplay sure, Thieves are fun. The elite spec seems neat-o! We’re mostly concerned with competitive balance and power-creep.
You just did it. You just told me that no body cared about the sum, and instead everyone is focusing on the “Mechanic”. You dumped two paragraphs and a list about that one, single fact while completely ignoring the quality and synergy of everything. You are either so irrational that you haven’t put two and two together, or you are so shameless that you are lying right to my face.
The third option is that you don’t understand what we’re saying.
This forum is filled non-constructive tantrums that are bellowing so loud that they’re silencing any constructive thoughts. Its so bad that when someone made a thread in the PVP forum over the topic of thieves he was bashed down again and again over how wrong they were. It is crap like this that makes it hard for the devs to get constructive feedback. And like an impetuous child, this forum needs to be brought to its senses.
I only see one person here making personal attacks and not providing any feedback.
There are dozens of positive/constructive ideas that have been born on this subforum since BWE2. People have joined together to give great feedback to the devs including balanced functional skills, animation shortcuts to save time in development, UI examples of how things can be laid out. These forums have been overwhelmingly productive. The negativity comes from the fact that there is no dev response on the outstanding issues.
You need to dust yourself off man, you’re covered in salt.
EDIT: Ok, your Point was about the current Situation where DD does not exist, but with a look at HoT, Thieves who are willing to take DD will be unrivaled when it comes to Mobility, even if you drop Shortbow.
Ya lol. My point is that, Shortbow is all of our mobility not the profession. Look at your math for how much distance is covered by Shortbow.
Go into sPvP today and try to backcap and +1 without shortbow in your bar.
Thief is all about mobility, and what better way to reinforce that idea than Acrobatics being remade into our “mobility line”? A +25% movespeed minor—similar to what Chronomancer is getting—would go a long way toward reinforcing Thief’s profession identity.
I agree. Daredevil aside all of our future elite specs will require some high mobiility that fits right into the acrobatics line.
You are basically saying, remove endure pain, warrior will be useless
or remove lighting flash, ele will be doomed
remove blink, mesmer will be useless
remove elixir S, all engi will be reckt.
whats your point again?Warrior isn’t taken for Endure Pain.
Elementalist isn’t taken for Lightning Flash.
Mesmer isn’t taken for Blink.
Engineer isn’t taken for Elixir S.The point is that Thief IS taken for Shortbow 5. You don’t think that thief is weak, fine, there is merit in that. Then consider the role that Thief currently plays. Thief is a +1/decapper. How can it do this? Exclusively because of Shortbow 5. Have you ever tried to get around the map without a shortbow? It’s so abysmally slow that I wouldn’t even say the class is worthy of the name “Thief” anymore.
Yeah. It’s not the most mobile profession. It’s the profession with access to the most mobile weapon set. Without Shortbox cemented into our second weapon set slot, we’re not a better decapper than anyone with a ranged blink. Especially since ours is the longest cooldown of all professions.
I actually deleted my post because I felt like I was wasting my breath. A bit too slow on that apparently haha
lol, sorry man.
You’re point is good and even though you may be wasting your breath on the exact person you’re talking to, correcting misunderstandings goes a long way toward helping the silent browsers understand the issues more easily. Quite a few of the past few days of feedback have been correcting people who are more than likely unconcerned with the actual success of the profession and even though it goes in one ear and out the other, we’ve developed quite the conceptual language to communicate the outstanding issues with the profession.
Many threads now have a consistent language on what we need fixed in Daredevil for it to work properly. The community as a whole has pretty much reached a consensus on quite a few things and as a whole Thief will be better for it in the coming months.
I think the opposite as you OP.
Acrobatics should be restored to what it was in the past. Once Daredevil’s grandmaster traits gets fixed and given to us baseline, you can put dodge effect traits in there. Stuff like:
- Offense – Dodges do 20% more damage. After a successful evade, your next attack has a 100% chance to crit. (icd 10 or so)
- Defense – Evading an attack causes 1/4 second daze.
- Utility – Boons and Conditions triggered by dodging have a 33% longer duration.
You are basically saying, remove endure pain, warrior will be useless
or remove lighting flash, ele will be doomed
remove blink, mesmer will be useless
remove elixir S, all engi will be reckt.
whats your point again?Warrior isn’t taken for Endure Pain.
Elementalist isn’t taken for Lightning Flash.
Mesmer isn’t taken for Blink.
Engineer isn’t taken for Elixir S.The point is that Thief IS taken for Shortbow 5. You don’t think that thief is weak, fine, there is merit in that. Then consider the role that Thief currently plays. Thief is a +1/decapper. How can it do this? Exclusively because of Shortbow 5. Have you ever tried to get around the map without a shortbow? It’s so abysmally slow that I wouldn’t even say the class is worthy of the name “Thief” anymore.
Yeah. It’s not the most mobile profession. It’s the profession with access to the most mobile weapon set. Without Shortbox cemented into our second weapon set slot, we’re not a better decapper than anyone with a ranged blink. Especially since ours is the longest cooldown of all professions.
But I thought Mesmers were the new Thieves.
No Mesmers were the new Thieves. Now they’re the current Thieves.
the only class that comes close to being a better thief is mesmer.
And Revenant. It is not exaggerating to say that Shiro Revenant (and the Devastation line) are all that Thief SHOULD be.
Jokes aside, my guild has said dozens of times that Revenant is a better Thief than Thief is with Shiro…
I would so glad to know they have been reading all our suggestion. So glad.
Whatever the changes are, this is the most important part to me. If they say something like “Pistol only got 20% damage increase but we’re listening to your feedback on the forums and you can expect a Thief rebalance 2 months after HoT launch.” It would go such a long way for the community.